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SMNTY Classics: Unapologetic · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm welcome to Stepman
0:07
Speaker 1: never told you protection of iHeart Radio. So as this
0:19
Speaker 1: comes out, it is JUNEO. Is this Pride month? Um?
0:23
Speaker 1: So happy Pride? And yeah, and recently we did an
0:27
Speaker 1: episode on Women around the World where we just kind
0:30
Speaker 1: of talked about our influences and inspirations in the queer community,
0:35
Speaker 1: and I mentioned the book Unapologetic, So I thought, you know,
0:40
Speaker 1: especially as people safely are going on trips perhaps and
0:44
Speaker 1: you're looking for something to read and you haven't read
0:46
Speaker 1: this one here regard again recommending it. Yes, uh so
0:51
Speaker 1: please enjoy this classic episode. Hey, this is Annie and
0:59
Speaker 1: Samantha and welcome to stuff I've Never told Reproductive I
1:02
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Today we have another episode of book club
1:14
Speaker 1: for you, and we are very excited to be talking
1:17
Speaker 1: about Unapologetic, a Black queer and feminist Mandate for Radical
1:22
Speaker 1: Movements by Charlene A. Carruthers. And this is a very
1:26
Speaker 1: timely book for a lot of reasons, probably a lot
1:29
Speaker 1: of them obvious. It takes a look at black intellectual
1:34
Speaker 1: thought and organizing and grassroots movements like the Haitian Revolution,
1:40
Speaker 1: civil rights movement here in the United States, um, feminism,
1:43
Speaker 1: and the l g B, t Q plus movements to
1:46
Speaker 1: provide a flexible model for for organizing, while also calling
1:51
Speaker 1: for a more queer and feminist approach to black liberation
1:57
Speaker 1: and a more radical approach as well. The book deals
2:00
Speaker 1: into all the tools of white supremacy that white supremacy
2:04
Speaker 1: uses to function to keep oppressors in power, tools like
2:07
Speaker 1: the patriarchy and feminism and homophobia and able is um.
2:14
Speaker 1: Through her years of organizing, There's also has recommendations for
2:17
Speaker 1: improving the longevity and effectiveness of social justice movements with
2:22
Speaker 1: things like healing justice within these movements themselves and developing
2:27
Speaker 1: leaders so very very timely. Yes. She also re examines
2:32
Speaker 1: several of the common issues that come up and organizing,
2:34
Speaker 1: the unhelpful comparisons to pass movements, or the generational disconnect
2:38
Speaker 1: social media. In fighting burnout questions of accountability, Penning hopes
2:43
Speaker 1: on one single leader pastor in present and only remembering
2:46
Speaker 1: the good things that leader did and not the problematic
2:49
Speaker 1: aspects and how that hinders social justice movements. And she
2:53
Speaker 1: knows what she's talking about. She wrote, quote, since thirteen,
2:56
Speaker 1: I have steered the growth and development of by p.
2:59
Speaker 1: One hundred, which is the Black Youth Project one hundred
3:03
Speaker 1: and one of the most prolific and integral black liberation
3:06
Speaker 1: movement organizations of the twenty first century. Yes, Um and
3:12
Speaker 1: I very much enjoyed this book. It's a pretty quick
3:15
Speaker 1: quick read, but there's just so much a wealth of
3:20
Speaker 1: information in there. Um. Yeah, So if you haven't read
3:24
Speaker 1: it yet, highly highly recommend that you do. We did
3:29
Speaker 1: want to start with some definitions before we get too
3:32
Speaker 1: much into discussion, because just so we're all on the
3:35
Speaker 1: same up page. So one is queer, Um Caruthers defines
3:42
Speaker 1: it quote queer as I am defining it here, represents
3:44
Speaker 1: a continuum of possibilities outside of what are considered to
3:47
Speaker 1: be normal sexual or gender identities and behaviors. And she
3:52
Speaker 1: defines the black queer feminist lens as she says, quote,
3:57
Speaker 1: the black queer feminist lens is a political practice, practice,
4:00
Speaker 1: and theory based in Black feminists and LGBTQ traditions and
4:04
Speaker 1: knowledge through which people and groups see to bring their
4:07
Speaker 1: full cells into the process of dismanting all the systems
4:10
Speaker 1: of oppression. So this black queer feminist lens is so
4:14
Speaker 1: important throughout the book. Um and, as frequently shortened to
4:18
Speaker 1: b q F. But it's her approach is all about
4:22
Speaker 1: centering that, UM, using that as not only a guidance,
4:28
Speaker 1: but in the title like a mandate. Um, just really
4:32
Speaker 1: using it to to inform how to organize, and just
4:36
Speaker 1: kind of an understanding that that's what's being left out
4:40
Speaker 1: in most movements and why it's so important today exactly. Yeah. Um,
4:46
Speaker 1: And we also wanted to include this quote that from
4:49
Speaker 1: the book about the unique oppression of black people. Anti
4:52
Speaker 1: blackness is a system of beliefs and practices that attack,
4:55
Speaker 1: eroad and limit the humanity of black people. It was
4:58
Speaker 1: cultivated through the Transatlantics save trade and continues today in
5:01
Speaker 1: the policies and practices of nation states, corporations, individuals, and
5:05
Speaker 1: entire societies. Right, So we did want to talk a
5:08
Speaker 1: little bit about themes. Um. Corrothers makes an impassion and
5:11
Speaker 1: informed case for the power of organizing. Early on in
5:14
Speaker 1: the book, she quotes Frederick Douglas quote power conceives nothing
5:17
Speaker 1: without a demand, and she says, I believe that we
5:20
Speaker 1: must go further and say that power can seves nothing
5:23
Speaker 1: without an organized demand. Right, so let's talk about organizing.
5:28
Speaker 1: It's pretty key in the book. Um, she writes organizing
5:32
Speaker 1: by using the black queer feminist lens. Calls for us
5:34
Speaker 1: to be individuals and to work collectively, with neither being
5:38
Speaker 1: at the expense of the other. And that that's one
5:40
Speaker 1: thing I really loved about UM her approach. And this
5:44
Speaker 1: isn't really an autobiography. She there are some personal stories throughout,
5:49
Speaker 1: but there it's more lessons learned and history just this
5:55
Speaker 1: all of this history of UM, black liberation movements and
6:00
Speaker 1: equal movements. UM. But I loved how she really emphasized
6:04
Speaker 1: that there needs to be both sort of this individual
6:07
Speaker 1: what do I want one? Am I fighting for? What
6:09
Speaker 1: do I want to see? But also collectively because you
6:12
Speaker 1: can achieve something in a vacuum like you need to
6:14
Speaker 1: work together. UM. She also talks about activism versus community
6:20
Speaker 1: organizing two important foundations UM, developing leaders and strategizing to
6:25
Speaker 1: take action. UM. Also note not all community organizing is radical.
6:32
Speaker 1: Many work to keep systems of oppression in place, and
6:36
Speaker 1: those callouts are pretty hard. Yeah, you read the book,
6:41
Speaker 1: so asking yourself, what world do you want to build
6:44
Speaker 1: and what do you want for future generations? Who are you?
6:47
Speaker 1: Who are your people? What do you want? What are
6:50
Speaker 1: we building? And are we ready to win. Yeah. Having
6:54
Speaker 1: those answers in place, UM well really help guide you
7:01
Speaker 1: and what you feel that you can contribute and what
7:05
Speaker 1: you do want to see and what you're fighting for
7:07
Speaker 1: because UM burnout is a big problem. And she discusses
7:10
Speaker 1: the killing of black imagination along with that of imagining
7:16
Speaker 1: what this world that you're fighting for could look like
7:20
Speaker 1: UM and the importance of that imagination when it comes
7:23
Speaker 1: to envisioning this world that you want to to live
7:27
Speaker 1: in and you want future generations to live in. UM.
7:31
Speaker 1: She also discusses the importance of transformative change as opposed
7:36
Speaker 1: to reforms UM. So, for example, she describes a quote
7:41
Speaker 1: from black actress I believe of black women being at
7:45
Speaker 1: the bottom of the social ladder UM and hanging on
7:48
Speaker 1: to that bottom rung and car others. Is a proponent
7:54
Speaker 1: of imagining a different ladder, like instead of that, you've
7:58
Speaker 1: got to climb this letter. Why do we have the
7:59
Speaker 1: TI have leader at all? Let's think outside of that.
8:02
Speaker 1: Let's get a better letter. Yeah, are no ladder? Who
8:05
Speaker 1: knows the letters? Yeah, I'd be lovely. She also talks
8:09
Speaker 1: about the need for accountability in organizing and UM. One
8:12
Speaker 1: of the things that she does talk about within her
8:13
Speaker 1: own organizations is very raw. Is the example of the
8:17
Speaker 1: me too movement within their own organization, she writes, She
8:20
Speaker 1: writes an amazing personal manner that it really does feel
8:24
Speaker 1: like it hits close to home for anyone, and honestly
8:27
Speaker 1: is true. If the truth is that there are more
8:28
Speaker 1: women that are victimized than not, then we must also
8:31
Speaker 1: know the perpetrators of these incidents and we have to
8:36
Speaker 1: hold that person or even just that accountable about what
8:40
Speaker 1: it is and what it seems. And and if we
8:42
Speaker 1: truly are saying believe women UM and believe victims, then
8:46
Speaker 1: how do we actually do that in regards to people
8:49
Speaker 1: we know that people we respect it and worked with
8:52
Speaker 1: UM and just realizing at the same time that these
8:55
Speaker 1: truths can be devastating. And I found her relaying of
9:01
Speaker 1: incidents with that happening with her leadership in her own
9:04
Speaker 1: program was really beautifully raw. Of course, that was it
9:07
Speaker 1: was kind of on those levels of how do we
9:09
Speaker 1: handle it, what does it come down to, and how
9:11
Speaker 1: do we hold our own accountable and without completely ostracizing
9:16
Speaker 1: someone and completely giving up on someone, but at the
9:18
Speaker 1: same time making sure that they take responsibility in their
9:21
Speaker 1: part to this, So it was definitely a nice insight
9:24
Speaker 1: to see how she opened up about her own struggles
9:27
Speaker 1: and trying to come face to face when she has
9:30
Speaker 1: to be the one that says, what do we do,
9:32
Speaker 1: how do we handle this, and what do we do
9:34
Speaker 1: when it is our friend? Mm hmm, Yeah. I really
9:38
Speaker 1: appreciated that too, and I could feel like the anxiety
9:41
Speaker 1: in my own stomach reading that what would I do? Um?
9:47
Speaker 1: And I've thought about it because unfortunately, as you say,
9:52
Speaker 1: the numbers just indicate, right, I probably do know someone
9:56
Speaker 1: who's done there's been involved in some kind of non
10:00
Speaker 1: sensual sexual thing, and that's a scary thought of what
10:06
Speaker 1: what you would do. But I you know, you have
10:08
Speaker 1: to have to hold people accountable for their actions. You
10:11
Speaker 1: have to live out what you say. And if we
10:13
Speaker 1: truly believe that victims need to be believed, and there's
10:17
Speaker 1: so much connotation to how do we do that and
10:21
Speaker 1: at the same time, how do we do that as
10:22
Speaker 1: an organization that's supposed to be a leadership organization to
10:25
Speaker 1: impact these types of wrongs and to make change these
10:29
Speaker 1: types of wrongs. That's a whole big nutshell that you
10:32
Speaker 1: have to do. At the time her this organization by
10:38
Speaker 1: p one hundred was in like the National Spotlight before
10:40
Speaker 1: this happened, like it was a very stressful. Um oh
10:48
Speaker 1: yeah um. So we do have other themes that we
10:54
Speaker 1: want to touch on, but first we have a quick
10:56
Speaker 1: break for a word from our sponsor, and we're back,
11:11
Speaker 1: Thank you sponsor. Something else the book examines that we
11:15
Speaker 1: wanted to discuss is gendered violence and anti blackness. So
11:21
Speaker 1: in the book she quotes Beth E. Ritchie, who is
11:24
Speaker 1: a scholar and anti violence activists, and Richie wrote surrounding
11:29
Speaker 1: the violence matrix is the tangled web of structural disadvantages,
11:33
Speaker 1: institutionalized racism, gender domination, class exportation, hetero patriarchy, and other
11:39
Speaker 1: forms of oppression that locked the abuse of black women
11:41
Speaker 1: in place. Responses need to be developed that take all
11:45
Speaker 1: the forms of abuse and all of the spheres within
11:47
Speaker 1: which injustice occurs into account. Carruthers uses the b Q
11:52
Speaker 1: in Richie's Violence Matrix to demonstrate how all of this
11:55
Speaker 1: violence is connected social spheres, communities, home governments, corporations, and
12:00
Speaker 1: how the US normalize with violence against black people, women
12:04
Speaker 1: LGBTQ plus community by limiting access to healthcare, not allowing
12:09
Speaker 1: self determination and in who gets funding. Yeah, so really
12:15
Speaker 1: driving the point home that all of these things are connected. Um,
12:20
Speaker 1: you can't separate out uh sort of structural violence and
12:25
Speaker 1: say this is the only problem, but you have to
12:28
Speaker 1: recognize the influence they have on each other. Um. She
12:32
Speaker 1: is also adamant about not leaving people out brothers is
12:36
Speaker 1: of being inclusive in these movements. She writes, patriarchy and
12:39
Speaker 1: its offspring homophobia and trans phobia have no place in
12:42
Speaker 1: our movement. To allow these to go unchecked is counter revolutionary.
12:46
Speaker 1: If your liberation movement as people on the sidelines are
12:49
Speaker 1: absent altogether, then it's not really a liberatory And later
12:53
Speaker 1: she goes on to say, I want the lie that
12:55
Speaker 1: black people cannot be black, queer, trans and women at
12:58
Speaker 1: the same time to die of lift death right. I mean,
13:01
Speaker 1: she hits those points pretty quickly, pretty fastly throughout the book. Um,
13:06
Speaker 1: and she's then studying black liberation movements. Corrothers identifies three
13:10
Speaker 1: commitments movements should collectively make to regenerate. So one is
13:14
Speaker 1: a building many strong leaders. That means knowing your self interest,
13:19
Speaker 1: which that's just a lofty goal in this celf. That's
13:23
Speaker 1: just like a year long meditation session um. And also
13:28
Speaker 1: not quote passing the torch um, the need for multiple
13:31
Speaker 1: strong leaders and room to grow instead of just pulling
13:34
Speaker 1: at your own the ones that you know. It should
13:37
Speaker 1: have an ability to bring in new ideas, new people. Right.
13:41
Speaker 1: I love that. Um. It was a quote she was
13:43
Speaker 1: quoting somebody I can't remember who, um, but about passing
13:46
Speaker 1: the torch, and he said there is no torch to pass. Um. Like,
13:49
Speaker 1: if you're just waiting around for somebody to say yeah, yeah,
13:53
Speaker 1: then you're not going to get much done. Um. The
13:56
Speaker 1: importance of creating spaces for healing. She it's in the
14:00
Speaker 1: words of car Page from the Kindred Healing Justice collective.
14:04
Speaker 1: Healing Justice identifies how we can holistically respond to and
14:07
Speaker 1: intervene on generational trauma and violence and to bring collective
14:11
Speaker 1: practices that can impact and transform the consequences of oppression
14:14
Speaker 1: on our bodies, hearts, and minds. Yeah. She also speaks
14:18
Speaker 1: about how the term self care needs to be rephrased,
14:22
Speaker 1: and it kind of hit me because of what we
14:23
Speaker 1: actually need is the care of others to help us
14:26
Speaker 1: and to help each other. And it can't just be
14:28
Speaker 1: done by ourselves, but by your trusted collective. And I
14:31
Speaker 1: know it's such a small bit of the book, but
14:33
Speaker 1: it doesn't hit me pretty quickly. And they've obviously hit
14:36
Speaker 1: her too, because she kind of sat there as she
14:38
Speaker 1: was speaking with a mentor and they said that they
14:40
Speaker 1: were She's just like, wait, oh, wait what, Yeah, I
14:43
Speaker 1: guess that's true that if it's a movement, if we're
14:45
Speaker 1: part of a movement, if this is a collective, we
14:48
Speaker 1: need those that we trust to help us in our
14:50
Speaker 1: care of ourselves as well. Yeah, And that that part
14:56
Speaker 1: um of the book really personated with me, you just
15:00
Speaker 1: because I, um, she talks a lot about how this
15:05
Speaker 1: work can be almost always is very traumatizing, and when
15:11
Speaker 1: you're in it all the time, just the physical toll,
15:15
Speaker 1: not only mentally and emotionally, but the physical toll it
15:19
Speaker 1: can take. Um. And then as you say, we say
15:23
Speaker 1: this in so many episodes that I don't think it
15:25
Speaker 1: was this hoe, but in a recent one, Um, that
15:28
Speaker 1: can take you out of the game in which you're
15:30
Speaker 1: not helping anybody. But it's it can be so hard
15:33
Speaker 1: to tell yourself when there's so many things, so many
15:36
Speaker 1: injustices and wrongs to be corrected, there's this goal, Well
15:40
Speaker 1: I have to keep going. I have to keep going,
15:42
Speaker 1: almost like I don't. I don't have time. It's not
15:45
Speaker 1: worth stopping. But you do need to take those moments
15:50
Speaker 1: and and have people in your community kind of share
15:54
Speaker 1: that with you and help you so that you can regenerate,
15:56
Speaker 1: which is what this whole is all a part of,
15:59
Speaker 1: so that bits than they don't die out or people
16:02
Speaker 1: just keep crying out of them, right. And I did
16:04
Speaker 1: love also she did talk about because it was so me.
16:06
Speaker 1: It's it is so me. It's especially being new to
16:11
Speaker 1: actually being a voice as opposed to being behind the scene,
16:15
Speaker 1: about being silenced and being so traumatized that you are
16:19
Speaker 1: silence that you do the bare minimum because you are
16:21
Speaker 1: petrified or just triggered so hard, like you're emotionally physically
16:26
Speaker 1: not able to put into words what needs to be done,
16:30
Speaker 1: so therefore you just sit silently and waiting, which is
16:33
Speaker 1: more harmful as well, which is like a double wear me.
16:36
Speaker 1: And she talks about that so loudly, and about what
16:39
Speaker 1: that meant that she was saying that she would make
16:41
Speaker 1: a point but not make a point, that she would
16:43
Speaker 1: share something but not go to the depths of it
16:45
Speaker 1: because she couldn't put into words, the trauma and the pain,
16:48
Speaker 1: because she was continuing to suffer from the trauma and
16:51
Speaker 1: the pain, whether it was from the past experiences or
16:54
Speaker 1: just being revictimized to that moment and being triggered in
16:57
Speaker 1: those moments from your past trauma. And I was like, oh, damn, girl,
17:02
Speaker 1: you just got me. You just got through real hard
17:04
Speaker 1: because I to me, one of the hardest things as
17:06
Speaker 1: an ally is to know when to speak and to
17:09
Speaker 1: know when not to speak. And because of the trauma
17:11
Speaker 1: that I've and both of us have gone through as
17:14
Speaker 1: children or as uh later on in our adolescens and
17:18
Speaker 1: being silenced so hard through whether it was through violence,
17:22
Speaker 1: whether it was through abuse um or whether it was
17:25
Speaker 1: just pure neglect in general, that it kind of sits
17:29
Speaker 1: on you in a way in the level that you
17:31
Speaker 1: that emotions to try to bring that courage up to
17:34
Speaker 1: stand up for something that you know it is important,
17:37
Speaker 1: and it is a heavy, heavy issue. It's stunting. It
17:42
Speaker 1: literally puts you in a place that you cannot grow,
17:45
Speaker 1: and not only that that you're frozen to try to
17:47
Speaker 1: put any action. So she talked about that and and
17:49
Speaker 1: going beyond that, but it was, uh, it was too
17:52
Speaker 1: close to home for that one. Yeah, yeah, and that's
17:57
Speaker 1: that's a good segue into UM. So that was one
18:01
Speaker 1: of her three commitments that she thinks movement should collectively
18:05
Speaker 1: make to regenerate. The second one is adopting healing justice
18:08
Speaker 1: as a core organizing value and practice. And then uh,
18:14
Speaker 1: the third one is combating liberalism with principled struggle. Um.
18:21
Speaker 1: She compares social movements to the human body to two cells,
18:25
Speaker 1: like human beings being cells. Um. Again, this one was
18:30
Speaker 1: challenging for me because she isn't talking about the damage
18:33
Speaker 1: of white liberalism, although she does include it, but liberalism
18:37
Speaker 1: as a whole and how it has been bogged down
18:39
Speaker 1: by good intentions and honestly mixed with, if not grounded
18:43
Speaker 1: with h the idea of capitalism and the growth of
18:46
Speaker 1: capitalism and the change of a movement that is too
18:48
Speaker 1: easy to compromise. And I guess honestly we can say
18:51
Speaker 1: this is where we are in our presidential election. This
18:53
Speaker 1: is exactly where we have come into this moment of liberalism.
18:58
Speaker 1: To me, at one point in time was about freedom
19:01
Speaker 1: and rights and justice. But as we talk about what
19:05
Speaker 1: is happening, liberalism is starting to become more of white
19:09
Speaker 1: speak for compromise and don't change too much. But I
19:12
Speaker 1: want to be better human than that person, right, you know.
19:16
Speaker 1: And Jen I was like, uh uh, I'm not sure
19:18
Speaker 1: I can quite I'm not exactly sure if I can
19:21
Speaker 1: swallow all of this, but I hear you in Dawn
19:23
Speaker 1: that's a lot. Yeah. Well, she she definitely goes into
19:28
Speaker 1: into that, and that's one of the things I really
19:31
Speaker 1: appreciated about her writing as well. As she's um very
19:38
Speaker 1: she doesn't romanticize things. So she talked about the Obama era,
19:42
Speaker 1: like the good things, but also all these bad things.
19:45
Speaker 1: And that's why she stands on is that you cannot,
19:47
Speaker 1: as we said at the beginning of her her whole
19:49
Speaker 1: thing was, you cannot sit here and pretend everything was
19:51
Speaker 1: great when it wasn't. Yeah, and you have to acknowledge
19:55
Speaker 1: the faults in order to progress and to make change. Yeah,
19:59
Speaker 1: And that is she makes that point throughout and I
20:02
Speaker 1: really really appreciated it because it's true if you're like
20:05
Speaker 1: ignoring all these other issues that are happening, if you're
20:08
Speaker 1: not using this um black queer feminist lens and are
20:14
Speaker 1: okay with these injustices, are they're just not in your
20:18
Speaker 1: You're not worried about them, then, yeah, things aren't going
20:21
Speaker 1: to change and the system will continue on. So I
20:26
Speaker 1: really appreciated how she did that, and she did bring
20:29
Speaker 1: up with the liberalism and white liberalism, how it is
20:33
Speaker 1: so often um black women working to get Democrats elected
20:41
Speaker 1: or that has been the case for a long time,
20:42
Speaker 1: and then not getting anything that they asked for, being
20:46
Speaker 1: largely ignored. Yeah. Yeah. Another key aspect of the book
20:53
Speaker 1: and of organizing is understanding history and context, and in
20:57
Speaker 1: this sense, the history of black people and radical movements.
21:01
Speaker 1: So Carruthers focuses in on a couple of things, but
21:05
Speaker 1: one of them is the history of modern day Haiti,
21:08
Speaker 1: which was previously the militarized colony of San Domingo, which
21:12
Speaker 1: became the Western Hemisphere's first independent black nation. She uses
21:16
Speaker 1: Ella Baker's understanding of radicalism here quote. In order for us,
21:20
Speaker 1: as poor and oppressed people to become part of a
21:23
Speaker 1: society that is meaningful, the system under which we now
21:25
Speaker 1: exist has to be radically changed. This means that we
21:28
Speaker 1: are going to have to learn to think in radical terms.
21:31
Speaker 1: I use the term radical in its original meaning getting
21:35
Speaker 1: down to you and understanding the root cause. It means
21:38
Speaker 1: facing a system that does not lend itself to your needs,
21:40
Speaker 1: and devising means by which you change that system. So
21:45
Speaker 1: before the eight o four Haitian Revolution, enslaved Africans died
21:49
Speaker 1: from overworking or violence. Within ten years on average, over
21:52
Speaker 1: one million Haitian freedom fighters overthrew the French colonizers and
21:56
Speaker 1: established a black republic, the first in the Western hemisphere.
22:00
Speaker 1: This disrupted the trade for France, the UK, and the
22:03
Speaker 1: u S, and these countries made sure to make things
22:05
Speaker 1: ridiculously difficult for Haiti, creating and exacerbating things like poverty
22:10
Speaker 1: as we can see today. And she expounds on this
22:15
Speaker 1: and hammers home the importance of telling the stories of
22:17
Speaker 1: black radical traditions and recognizing contradictions to move forward, like
22:22
Speaker 1: the historical lack of LGBTQ plus voices, the lack of
22:25
Speaker 1: women's voices, and some of these movements um, even though
22:28
Speaker 1: a lot of times they were the ones doing the work,
22:32
Speaker 1: and a lot of these histories are missing from our
22:36
Speaker 1: popular narrative, the history that we popularly tell um. She
22:40
Speaker 1: uses the case of Mrs recy Taylor, who in was
22:45
Speaker 1: kidnapped and raped by ten white men and boys. Investigating
22:48
Speaker 1: this rosa Parks organized, bringing together prominent black activists and
22:52
Speaker 1: organizations in Alabama where this occurred to create the Alabama
22:56
Speaker 1: Committee for Equal Justice for Mrs rec Taylor. The Chica
23:00
Speaker 1: Go Defender labeled this campaign as the strongest effort for
23:03
Speaker 1: equality in a decade led black black women. This campaign
23:07
Speaker 1: drew level support and coalitions previously unseen or at least
23:11
Speaker 1: around that time, very very rare to see something like
23:15
Speaker 1: that for combating the sexual violence of black women and
23:17
Speaker 1: girls face and it became key in the fight for
23:20
Speaker 1: black liberation taking place, but is largely not told, is
23:25
Speaker 1: largely forgotten, which is sad. And another example she gives
23:29
Speaker 1: is Bayard Rustin, an openly gay black man being pushed
23:32
Speaker 1: aside for quote more palatable black leaders, or the stories
23:36
Speaker 1: of Marsha P. Johnson and Sylvia Rivera that we touched
23:39
Speaker 1: on in our Protest and Organizing episodes. Yeah, and she
23:43
Speaker 1: she makes the point that there's so much power and
23:46
Speaker 1: seeing yourself reflected um in people like this in the
23:51
Speaker 1: liberation movement, the value of it when it comes to
23:53
Speaker 1: dismantling homophobia and transphobia in particular, but just being able
23:58
Speaker 1: to to see these people making these changes, being fighting
24:06
Speaker 1: this fight and being powerful in it and then thinking,
24:10
Speaker 1: you know, we always say if you can see what,
24:11
Speaker 1: you can be it. It's just I don't know if
24:15
Speaker 1: people I think people often forget that we mean that
24:19
Speaker 1: outside of representation and entertainment, right, I think it's changed
24:24
Speaker 1: as the way at least, like if you don't see it,
24:25
Speaker 1: become it. Yeah, I know, that's become the new kind
24:28
Speaker 1: of power thing is, Oh, we don't have that, let
24:31
Speaker 1: me try this, right, And I love that. I love yeah,
24:35
Speaker 1: And I mean it definitely is changing now when we
24:37
Speaker 1: look at who is leading a lot of these social
24:40
Speaker 1: movements are and and like again what they were before this, Um,
24:47
Speaker 1: we just weren't seeing them or hearing about them as
24:49
Speaker 1: much that you have to go through these depths of
24:53
Speaker 1: crisis in order to be willing to see who actually
24:56
Speaker 1: have been trying to push it forward. We've just been
24:59
Speaker 1: in a system where it is not advantageous for us
25:02
Speaker 1: to know of them. Yeah. Yeah, And she makes the
25:06
Speaker 1: point like you have this big Hollywood movie with Sean Penn,
25:10
Speaker 1: like multimillion dollar for Milk, but you don't have like
25:14
Speaker 1: anything for Marsha P. Johnson and Sylvia Rivera. What if
25:17
Speaker 1: we did like the same funding, not just uh like
25:22
Speaker 1: on the same level. Right. Yeah, yes, so we do
25:27
Speaker 1: have a little bit more for your listeners. But first
25:30
Speaker 1: we're going to pause for one more group break for
25:32
Speaker 1: word from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsoring.
25:48
Speaker 1: We just wanted to touch on a few points UM
25:52
Speaker 1: that maybe particularly hit home or resonated with us. And UM,
25:58
Speaker 1: one for me was I really appreciated her honesty in
26:02
Speaker 1: terms of feeling doubt or that she wasn't sure what
26:08
Speaker 1: to do at times, UM and making mistakes and growing
26:12
Speaker 1: and recognizing that. UM. And she shares the story of
26:17
Speaker 1: a conversation she had with somebody who she was working
26:22
Speaker 1: with and he said, uh, you know, I'm not I'm
26:26
Speaker 1: not fully woke, but I'm pretty woke or something like that.
26:29
Speaker 1: He says, uh, I'm not quite I'm not fully woke,
26:33
Speaker 1: but I'm waking up. Yeah. But yeah, basically, being um
26:41
Speaker 1: there you you want to have room to grow. There's
26:44
Speaker 1: no instance where being like, oh I'm perfect right now,
26:47
Speaker 1: I don't need anything else. That's never good. And I
26:51
Speaker 1: feel like a lot of times, UM, we hold ourselves back,
26:56
Speaker 1: or we hold ourselves too unachievable standards that do prevent
27:02
Speaker 1: us from being as effective as we can be when
27:05
Speaker 1: it comes to fighting for change. And I know we've
27:07
Speaker 1: talked about that in specific before when it comes to
27:10
Speaker 1: feminism and how for a long time I felt like, well,
27:14
Speaker 1: here all these examples I would have like examples, Well
27:16
Speaker 1: I'm not a good feminist because of this and this,
27:18
Speaker 1: So how can I speak about it? Um? And it
27:23
Speaker 1: held me back and it kept me quiet, and that's
27:26
Speaker 1: the opposite of what we want and need right now.
27:30
Speaker 1: And when I when I do think on it, especially
27:36
Speaker 1: as I've been on this show, there are things I
27:38
Speaker 1: look back that I've said or done, or are times
27:41
Speaker 1: that I've really failed that I wish so desperately I
27:45
Speaker 1: could change. And it did keep me quiet, and it
27:48
Speaker 1: did keep me afraid for a long time. UM, But
27:52
Speaker 1: I learned from those things. Like, as painful as it
27:55
Speaker 1: still is, I'm not gonna lie. Some of this is
27:57
Speaker 1: still painful. I did. I learned from it. And you
28:02
Speaker 1: can't let that stand in the way of doing something right. Well,
28:07
Speaker 1: like we were talking about just being silenced and being
28:10
Speaker 1: so traumatized that we are silence, and she did talk
28:13
Speaker 1: about also about um not just canceling people without actually
28:18
Speaker 1: teaching people, and that's not the way to go either. UM.
28:21
Speaker 1: And we've talked about this before, and we've talked about
28:24
Speaker 1: cancel culture before, and I know that's a big subject
28:26
Speaker 1: right now with the Harper's article, we're not we're not
28:29
Speaker 1: going to talk about but in the fact that there's nothing,
28:33
Speaker 1: nothing happens. No change happens just by saying you're wrong
28:36
Speaker 1: and dismissing them. But change happens when you can teach
28:39
Speaker 1: and and and show them what is the better or
28:42
Speaker 1: why is wrong or what's happening. Um. Of course, the
28:46
Speaker 1: conversation would also be laid at the fact that we
28:48
Speaker 1: put that on most of the times, the marginalized community.
28:52
Speaker 1: We put that on people's shoulders who should not have
28:54
Speaker 1: to be responsible to be the burden to teach us
28:57
Speaker 1: or teach others. UM. On all of this, But yeah,
29:02
Speaker 1: I think it was she was gonna bringing up so
29:04
Speaker 1: many good points, all like large and small, that I
29:08
Speaker 1: was just like, Okay, how do I grasp all these?
29:10
Speaker 1: And she did talk about education, um, and the work
29:13
Speaker 1: never being done and that's a part of our responsibility
29:15
Speaker 1: as well. But she she also did talk about that
29:17
Speaker 1: anti blackness is adaptable in the face of resistance to
29:21
Speaker 1: oppression UM. And I found that really like, oh, that's
29:25
Speaker 1: that's true. It is UM. And whether it's adaptable for
29:28
Speaker 1: people to say, but I'm not as racist as this,
29:31
Speaker 1: or I'm not as racist as that, and that's still
29:33
Speaker 1: anti blackness when you say in terms of these levels um.
29:38
Speaker 1: And she talks about this also as an educational access
29:40
Speaker 1: being privileged UM. And again I think that's kind of
29:44
Speaker 1: goes without saying which is part of the problem we
29:47
Speaker 1: see all the times who has afforded the better education
29:49
Speaker 1: and why and why is it so limited and why
29:52
Speaker 1: is it so um segregated for making sure those who
29:58
Speaker 1: are already in the good spot to be elevated would
30:02
Speaker 1: continue to be elevated as not given to the opportunities
30:05
Speaker 1: for those who may have never had that same opportunities.
30:08
Speaker 1: And I thought that was a really good conversation about
30:10
Speaker 1: that as well, about growing and how not only do
30:14
Speaker 1: we need to look at those as problematic, but we
30:17
Speaker 1: also need to be willing to share that wealth of
30:19
Speaker 1: knowledge as well. Oh yeah, yeah, I love that too,
30:25
Speaker 1: And I think that's something super that's so important that
30:29
Speaker 1: we do share. I mean, exactly what she did, she
30:32
Speaker 1: didn't book form, but we share our knowledge of how
30:36
Speaker 1: how do we make these things work? Or um, what
30:40
Speaker 1: are lessons? And I've learned through my experience that I
30:44
Speaker 1: can share to someone who is a younger person or
30:49
Speaker 1: looking to lead or both of those things. Um, So
30:52
Speaker 1: that's not as intimidating, and you can just be open
30:55
Speaker 1: with your experiences and it it just it's like the
31:02
Speaker 1: opposite of gate keeping. You know, you're like opening the gates. Yes,
31:08
Speaker 1: we need to come up with a term for this.
31:09
Speaker 1: I'm sure, ye, yes, Well it'll come to us later later.
31:17
Speaker 1: How simple it was, Um just the welcoming committee, the
31:25
Speaker 1: banned welcoming committee. It's being transparent and I mean she's
31:29
Speaker 1: very open about kind of radical honesty, right why is
31:34
Speaker 1: unapologetic And I love that everything about this is That's
31:39
Speaker 1: why I think is an easy read, but a hard
31:42
Speaker 1: read because everything matters, all of those conversations like yes okay,
31:48
Speaker 1: oh okay, I don't know if I oh okay. Everything
31:51
Speaker 1: in all of that is how she kind of just
31:54
Speaker 1: make sure that you're aware that she's seeing these problems.
31:58
Speaker 1: She's had time to sit down and have conversations with
32:01
Speaker 1: people and seeing in the system and see why it
32:03
Speaker 1: doesn't work, and this is why this has to be
32:05
Speaker 1: talked about, and it's all important and I don't have
32:07
Speaker 1: time to be just cute and give you acute see
32:10
Speaker 1: analyzation of what might be wrong. It's literally here it is.
32:15
Speaker 1: I'm not going to apologize for how honest it is
32:17
Speaker 1: and how organized it is. Like she is absolutely there
32:21
Speaker 1: with a plan as a plan mhm, as a guide. Yeah,
32:26
Speaker 1: oh yeah. And one of the things she touched on
32:29
Speaker 1: that I really liked, um, is the importance of a
32:31
Speaker 1: multi pronct approach, that there's not just one way to
32:35
Speaker 1: be an activist or to organize, that we do need
32:37
Speaker 1: all of these different ways working in tandem, working together. Um.
32:44
Speaker 1: And you can tell like she's seen some of this
32:46
Speaker 1: in fighting of people kind of judging others for this
32:50
Speaker 1: is the way to do it and no other way. Yeah. Um,
32:53
Speaker 1: but again that's keeping people out. You don't want to
32:55
Speaker 1: keep people out who are in this fight, right, And yeah,
33:00
Speaker 1: she definitely does an amazing job highlighting black queer women
33:03
Speaker 1: who organized in history and also just acknowledging what they
33:07
Speaker 1: had to do in order to dismantle so much of
33:10
Speaker 1: what is happening today. So she does an amazing job
33:14
Speaker 1: and making sure she she highlights black queer women who
33:17
Speaker 1: have organized in history and acknowledging that in order to
33:21
Speaker 1: dismantle so much of what is happening is to dismantle
33:24
Speaker 1: sexism and racism, and that one without the other is
33:27
Speaker 1: not fruitful. She does an amazing job and making sure
33:30
Speaker 1: we have a conversation about why intersectionality is so important
33:34
Speaker 1: and what that truly truly means um which again she
33:38
Speaker 1: talks about UH women in history, queer women of history,
33:42
Speaker 1: queer identifying gender nonconforming UH communities who would come together
33:47
Speaker 1: and or maybe on their own to try to dismantle
33:50
Speaker 1: the entirety of what is the problem, and it's not
33:53
Speaker 1: one without the other, and talking about why these people
33:57
Speaker 1: are so important and why it's been failing because oftentimes
34:02
Speaker 1: one ignores the other and you can't do that, whether
34:05
Speaker 1: it's the suffragette movement with the white women saying you know,
34:08
Speaker 1: it's all about us, or versus some of the even
34:10
Speaker 1: civil rights movement which talks about only black men and
34:14
Speaker 1: acknowledging only black men. UM. So, I think that's kind
34:17
Speaker 1: of conversation that has to be the bigger point is
34:19
Speaker 1: we have to dismantle both in order to see any
34:23
Speaker 1: type of reform. Yeah, um yeah, and able is um
34:29
Speaker 1: as well. So many, so many things about being intersectional
34:33
Speaker 1: that we do have to keep in mind and they
34:36
Speaker 1: are all connected. Uh and yeah, I guess in conclusion,
34:40
Speaker 1: this very timely, very much needed, uh. Centering black queer
34:47
Speaker 1: women who have been doing the work and getting things
34:48
Speaker 1: done and what we can learn from them throughout history
34:53
Speaker 1: and right now without forgetting or racing them are being
34:57
Speaker 1: like a white lady showing after your first protests and like, ah,
35:00
Speaker 1: I know what to do. Listen to me, no no um,
35:08
Speaker 1: sharing knowledge about what has worked for her and what
35:10
Speaker 1: hasn't um, lessons she's learned how to move forward. It
35:13
Speaker 1: really is a great primer on organizing and how we
35:19
Speaker 1: can be more efficient as we move forward. And also
35:24
Speaker 1: acknowledging that we have to allow the black queer women
35:29
Speaker 1: to lead or those identifying as women to be the
35:32
Speaker 1: leader in movements like this and why that's important and
35:34
Speaker 1: not trying to overtake for our own purposes. Yes, yes, yes,
35:41
Speaker 1: UM so definitely definitely recommends. Um. We uh love getting
35:49
Speaker 1: these recommendations from you, because I know some of your
35:52
Speaker 1: listeners wrote in about this one. Please keep sending those.
35:55
Speaker 1: We've got to choose our next book, and we want
35:57
Speaker 1: your help to do it. Are mel Is Stuff Media,
36:01
Speaker 1: mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com. You can also
36:04
Speaker 1: find us on Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You
36:06
Speaker 1: or on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always
36:09
Speaker 1: to our super producer Andrew Howard, Thank you, and thanks
36:13
Speaker 1: to you for listening Stuff I've Never Told You the
36:15
Speaker 1: protection of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio,
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Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
36:20
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.