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Foraging for tasty mushrooms · The Mushroom Trial: Say Grace

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Nine podcasts.
• 0:04
  Speaker 2: Aaron Patterson tells the jury about picking wild mushrooms, putting
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: them in food for her children, and adding to a
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: jar of dried mushrooms in her pantry. The accused killer
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: crying in the witness box as she told the court
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: she never should have sent expletive laden text messages about
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: her in laws.
• 0:22
  Speaker 3: Victoria's mushroom mystery, the mushroom lunch that claimed three lives an.
• 0:27
  Speaker 4: Australian family's meal is now the center of a homicide investigation.
• 0:31
  Speaker 4: For bizarre tragedy now grabbing global headlines.
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: Aaron Patterson's alleged victims died after eating a family lunch
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: she'd serve them at her home. I cannot think of
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: another investigation that has generated this level of media and
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: public interest. Four of the guests of that lunch were
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: much loved members of this church.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: Only one will ever return.
• 0:52
  Speaker 3: People are feeling very heavy with having lost such wonderful people.
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: Today, Aaron Pattison remained here inside her home.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: She's continued to plead her innocence in a courtroom in
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Country Victoria.
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: Aaron Patterson is on trial accused of using death cap
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: mushrooms to kill She's pleaded not guilty to murdering three
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: of her former in laws and attempting to kill a fourth,
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: the town's church pastor. It's up to the jurors to
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: decide what happened when Patterson's loved ones sat down to eat.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: Aaron Patterson has been on the stand for a number
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: of hours now giving her evidence. When we last checked
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: in with the listeners, she'd just begun in front of
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: the jury, But she's been taken through a whole range
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: of topics now by her defense lawyer.
• 1:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah, there was many, many, many topics that were gone
• 1:43
  Speaker 4: through today in the hours that Aaron Patterson's on the stand.
• 1:46
  Speaker 4: It's her second day in the witness box, and we
• 1:49
  Speaker 4: heard towards the end of the day, specifically just before
• 1:52
  Speaker 4: lunchtime and after lunchtime, was when questions were raised not
• 1:55
  Speaker 4: just about her personal situation and circumstances and thoughts and feelings,
• 1:59
  Speaker 4: but really about her interest in mushrooms, Penny. We heard
• 2:04
  Speaker 4: while she was being questioned by her defense barrister, Colin
• 2:07
  Speaker 4: Mandy sc questions around you do you accept that there
• 2:10
  Speaker 4: were deathcat mushrooms in the meal.
• 2:12
  Speaker 5: That you cooked?
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: Yes, Sharon, she does.
• 2:14
  Speaker 5: Aaron Patterson said yes.
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: And she also was asked a number of questions about
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: foraging for wild mushrooms, about picking them on her property,
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: picking them in other areas around car and Borough and surrounds.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: And will take you to that evidence as it came
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: to the jury in sort of the order that it
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: was presented, But we want to take you through a
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: really full look at what the jury has been told
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: so far, so we might start with what Aaron Patterson
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: was being asked about with her family situation, sort of
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: around the time of the separation, the formal separation she
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: put at with Simon that came at the end of
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: twenty fifteen.
• 2:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, she gave a bit of an insight into her
• 2:54
  Speaker 4: turbulent marriage at that time. She explained that she explained
• 2:59
  Speaker 4: that there was a number of break ups that had
• 3:00
  Speaker 4: happened in the lead lead up to that time. They've
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: been reconciliations as well, but they formally separated in twenty fifteen,
• 3:07
  Speaker 4: and it was in the immediate aftermath the weeks that
• 3:10
  Speaker 4: she was explaining to the jury that it was difficult
• 3:12
  Speaker 4: and there'd been other separations that were that you know,
• 3:15
  Speaker 4: had only lasted a handful of weeks, but she really
• 3:18
  Speaker 4: felt that at this time after twenty fifteen, after they
• 3:21
  Speaker 4: got through some of those difficult moments, that they really
• 3:23
  Speaker 4: went back to being good friends.
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: Let's hear a little bit of what Aaron Patterson said
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: in her evidence while speaking with her barrister, Colin Mandy.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: It's voiced by actors.
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: So after that period, shortly after that period that formal separation,
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: how was the communication between you and Simon, Like.
• 3:40
  Speaker 6: In the immediate after math, you know, weeks it was difficult,
• 3:43
  Speaker 6: as it had been at other separations, but that had
• 3:46
  Speaker 6: only lasted a handful of weeks. We went back to
• 3:49
  Speaker 6: just being really good friends.
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: Did you reflect on the reasons why the two of
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: you had separated?
• 3:55
  Speaker 6: Yeah, constantly. I didn't want to be separated, but I
• 3:57
  Speaker 6: felt there was no choice.
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: And what do you put the breakdown of that relationship too?
• 4:02
  Speaker 6: Our primary problem was if we had a disagreement or
• 4:05
  Speaker 6: any kind of conflict, we didn't seem to be able
• 4:08
  Speaker 6: to talk about it in a way where either of
• 4:10
  Speaker 6: us felt heard or understood. We just would feel hurt
• 4:13
  Speaker 6: and we really didn't know how to do that.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: Well.
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: You said that when you separated, you maintained the friendship
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: that you'd had before.
• 4:21
  Speaker 6: Yeah, we did because we continued to like, really liked
• 4:24
  Speaker 6: each other still, it was just the living together that
• 4:27
  Speaker 6: didn't work. Now.
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: Aaron Patterson was also asked about the family relationships and dynamics.
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: She gave evidence that when that she and Simon decided
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: to move to Victoria after they'd been living in wa
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: with their young son, that by that time she was
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: pregnant with their daughter, and that she moved over to
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: Victoria and they stayed in car and borrow with don
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: and Gail Patterson for around six weeks, after spending some
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: time traveling over and traveling in New Zealand as well.
• 4:55
  Speaker 5: She said that was the time that she really enjoyed.
• 4:57
  Speaker 4: She said, well, while that they were staying at Donn
• 4:59
  Speaker 4: and ga Ayle's house, they were the three of them
• 5:01
  Speaker 4: all in the one room, and it was quite yeah,
• 5:05
  Speaker 4: I guess, quite.
• 5:06
  Speaker 5: Busy in the household. She did really enjoy it.
• 5:08
  Speaker 4: She really enjoyed being around Gail Patterson in particular, who
• 5:12
  Speaker 4: she told the jury was really good at sort.
• 5:14
  Speaker 5: Of helping her with parenthood.
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and she sort of talked through this time also
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: about getting to know other members of the family and
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: the part of the reason that they had moved back
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: from wa She said was that their young child at
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: that time really enjoyed spending time with their cousins, and
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: they wanted that child to grow.
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: Up in that way.
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: And as she mentioned and I said before that she
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: knew at the time that they were coming back over
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: to Victoria that she was actually pregnant with their second child.
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: And she went on to talk about this relationship, and
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: she was asked sort of about how that was in
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: the later years as she and Simon had gone through
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: these separations. Let's hear a little bit more of Aaron
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: Patterson's evidence while she was speaking about the broader family
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: relationships with Don and Gail as well as Ian and Heather.
• 5:59
  Speaker 6: This is for by actors.
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: So does that mean in terms of Don Gale, you
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: and the children continued to see them often.
• 6:07
  Speaker 6: Yeah, we did. We'd go to their house often for
• 6:09
  Speaker 6: lunch with Simon. Without Simon, they would drop in and
• 6:13
  Speaker 6: knock on my door sometimes to drop things off. They
• 6:16
  Speaker 6: would have the children over to play and have sleepovers.
• 6:19
  Speaker 6: They were very involved.
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: What about your relationship with Heather and Ian over the years.
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: You told the jury that when you met Ian when
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: you came back from Western Australia in twenty thirteen, did
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: you start attending the current Borough Baptist Church.
• 6:34
  Speaker 6: Yeah, it would have probably been twenty Yeah, it would
• 6:37
  Speaker 6: have been twenty thirteen. Yeah. I have a clear memory
• 6:40
  Speaker 6: of sitting with my daughter not long after she'd been
• 6:43
  Speaker 6: born in the pews, so it'd definitely been going by then. Yeah.
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: And how much contact did you have with Heather and Ian?
• 6:50
  Speaker 6: So I'd always have a chat with them after church
• 6:52
  Speaker 6: if I could. You know, Ian was very popular as
• 6:55
  Speaker 6: the pastor and always had a lot of people wanting
• 6:57
  Speaker 6: to talk to him. But Heather would always make a
• 7:00
  Speaker 6: point of coming to talk to me, and I saw
• 7:02
  Speaker 6: them sometimes at Christmas gatherings, you know, that side of
• 7:05
  Speaker 6: the family. I probably didn't get to chat with Ian
• 7:08
  Speaker 6: so much, but Heather would always go out of her
• 7:10
  Speaker 6: way and come and sit with me and make sure
• 7:12
  Speaker 6: that I had company.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: Now, other areas that Aaron Patterson was taken to in
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: her evidence was also financial matters.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: The jury was told through her evidence that she had
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: been the beneficiary of an inheritance from her grandmother, that
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: she started receiving a sort of installments of that around
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: two thousand and seven, and that the last was in
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: twenty fifteen.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: She told the jury that commercial.
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: Properties had to be sold in order for that to
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: be worked out, and she gave evidence that this allowed
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: her and Simon to buy their first property, which was
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: in wa without a mortgage, and then to help out
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: his siblings as well.
• 7:45
  Speaker 4: They were also able to do a bit of travel
• 7:47
  Speaker 4: international and across Australia in terms of that traveling and
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: when they eventually moved back to Victoria, Aaron Patterson was
• 7:55
  Speaker 4: explaining to the jury that they sold the property in
• 7:57
  Speaker 4: Western Australia and were able to purchase property in the
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: Gippsland area and by the end twenty fifteen, should I
• 8:04
  Speaker 4: say that the end of their relationship, the houses were
• 8:09
  Speaker 4: both in each other's name. Still they were living apart,
• 8:11
  Speaker 4: but they both had the houses in each other's names.
• 8:13
  Speaker 5: And she was asked why.
• 8:15
  Speaker 4: That was, and her explanation was she really always saw
• 8:18
  Speaker 4: it being a family home, sort of coming back together
• 8:22
  Speaker 4: in a way, and that was the way that she
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: was trying to cite way that she was trying to
• 8:27
  Speaker 4: show Simon how she felt about having to use words
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: but by using actions to show him that this is
• 8:34
  Speaker 4: what she wanted.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she said that was sort of she felt a
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: tangible act by putting both their names on these properties.
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: She felt that it showed ultimately that she would really
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: have liked the family to come back together. But it
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: was noted in her evidence that that eventually changed. That
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: Simon put a property that's been called Nathan Street where
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: he was living at the time, and she's given evidence
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: continues to live that that went into his name, and
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: that a property at Mount Waverley and also block known
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: as Gibson's Street in Lee and Gatha where Aaron Patterson
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: eventually built a house that those went into her name instead.
• 9:07
  Speaker 5: Now.
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: She was also asked.
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: Quite a bit about her health over the years and
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: about particular concerns that she'd gone to a doctor about,
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: and she was taken back to evidence that the jury
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: has seen a number of times, which included screenshots of
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: different sort of medical website screenshots about symptoms and diagnosis
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: notes regarding different forms of cancer.
• 9:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it was at this point Colin Mandy asked his
• 9:31
  Speaker 4: client point blank did you ever have cancer?
• 9:34
  Speaker 5: And she said no. She was also then asked if
• 9:36
  Speaker 5: she'd ever had.
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: A biopsy on her arm, on her elbow, and she
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: said no, and that's when there was more questions about
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: her medical records, which was shown on the screen, and
• 9:45
  Speaker 4: she was speaking the witness box about how she was
• 9:47
  Speaker 4: feeling at that time, and she explained that she was
• 9:49
  Speaker 4: really worried that she could have cancer, that family members
• 9:52
  Speaker 4: had cancer. There was also discussions over whether or not
• 9:55
  Speaker 4: it could be ams or other sorts.
• 9:57
  Speaker 5: Of things like that. So that was her headspace at
• 10:00
  Speaker 5: the time.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it will take you to a little bit of
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: this evidence now, inn Colin Mandy is referring to some
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: notes that he says the jury has heard before from
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: a doctor, doctor Cassie, who was referred to a number
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: of times in Aaron Patterson's evidence and has been referred
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: to previously in the trial.
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: What was what were your symptoms? What was going on?
• 10:20
  Speaker 6: I'd been having a few months by then, a multitude
• 10:23
  Speaker 6: of symptoms. I felt very fatigued. I had ongoing abdominal pain,
• 10:27
  Speaker 6: I had chronic headaches, I put on a lot of
• 10:29
  Speaker 6: weight in quite a short period of time, and had
• 10:32
  Speaker 6: like my feet and my hands seemed to retain a
• 10:35
  Speaker 6: lot of fluid. And what set me over the edge
• 10:38
  Speaker 6: to actually go to the doctor was my wedding ring
• 10:40
  Speaker 6: suddenly wouldn't fit, and so I took them to the
• 10:43
  Speaker 6: local jeweler to be resized. Only a few weeks later,
• 10:46
  Speaker 6: when I picked them up, like they like, my hands
• 10:49
  Speaker 6: had outgrown them again. And so this was like a
• 10:52
  Speaker 6: rapid thing that caused me concern.
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: Now the note indicates this erin Warriors ovarian cancer has
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: been googling her symptoms. That's right, Yeah, is that what
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: you had been doing?
• 11:04
  Speaker 6: I had, Yeah, I consulted doctor Google.
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: Were there any other reasons, apart from your own symptoms
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: why you thought you might have avarian cancer?
• 11:13
  Speaker 6: Yeah, there were a few. I had a family history
• 11:15
  Speaker 6: of it on both sides of my parents. I'd had
• 11:18
  Speaker 6: an ovaria insist myself in about two thousand and two,
• 11:22
  Speaker 6: and my daughter had an avarian mass when she was
• 11:24
  Speaker 6: a baby.
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: And how was your daughter's averian mass identified?
• 11:28
  Speaker 6: So right from when she was born, I thought there
• 11:30
  Speaker 6: was something wrong. She cried a lot, but not normal crying.
• 11:34
  Speaker 6: I'd already had one baby by then, and I knew
• 11:37
  Speaker 6: what to expect. She cried for a lot, for long
• 11:41
  Speaker 6: durations that I thought demonstrated pain. I took her to
• 11:44
  Speaker 6: a lot of doctors and even the hospital, and what
• 11:47
  Speaker 6: they communicated to me was that I was an over
• 11:49
  Speaker 6: anxious mother that should relax, and she's just a normal baby.
• 11:53
  Speaker 6: How old was she so all through that period she was.
• 11:58
  Speaker 6: The mass was diagnosed in August, so she was eight
• 12:02
  Speaker 6: months old by the time it was actually.
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: Diagnosed, diagnosed by a doctor.
• 12:07
  Speaker 6: Yeah, that's right. But I discovered the mass myself. So
• 12:11
  Speaker 6: I had formed a habit of giving her a massage
• 12:13
  Speaker 6: on her belly after a shower. It seemed to calm
• 12:16
  Speaker 6: her down. And when I did it that day, I
• 12:18
  Speaker 6: could feel something and so I said to someone, we've
• 12:21
  Speaker 6: got to take it to the hospital, and that's what
• 12:23
  Speaker 6: we did, and they still dismissed me. Even then. They
• 12:28
  Speaker 6: said that they thought she just had a very full
• 12:30
  Speaker 6: bladder and we should wait until she voided her bladder
• 12:34
  Speaker 6: and it was still there.
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: So, in terms of that experience with her in hospital,
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: how did that make you feel about hospitals thereafter?
• 12:42
  Speaker 6: It considerably damaged my faith in the health system. I
• 12:48
  Speaker 6: didn't love hospitals before, like who does, but I didn't
• 12:52
  Speaker 6: trust that these people knew what they were doing. I
• 12:55
  Speaker 6: was just in a heightened state of anxiety. Ever after,
• 12:59
  Speaker 6: it was hard enough to get her in the first place.
• 13:01
  Speaker 6: I didn't want to lose her now.
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: Her barrister, Colin Mandy, took Aaron Patterson through a number
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: of other elements as you mentioned MS, also lupus and
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: other autoimmune disease was mentioned whether she maybe had concerns
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: about her brain and her heart at different points in time,
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: and Aaron Patterson said that she did. She noted in
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: her evidence that she was quite anxious about her health,
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: and she said that she'd lost faith in the healthcare
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: system because of this anecdote the listeners have just heard
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: regarding her daughter's health early in her life. And she
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: also spoke about some operations her son had needed to
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: undergo for issues with his knees, and she felt that
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: she hadn't been listened to by doctors there as well.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: She ultimately said in her evidence that she'd been really
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: self diagnosing and that she had been using doctor Google
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: in her own words, and she said that she felt
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: she actually had wasted medical professionals time.
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: That's when the conversation between the two then changed to
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: what was going on with the copair granting, the child
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: support payments, their arrangements and alike. This was late twenty
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: twenty two, around December twenty twenty two, when she was
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: having these conversations with Don and Gail and Simon about
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: what was going on with the kids and paying of
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: school fees and things like that, and she was telling
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: the jury that she'd grown quite frustrated with the situation.
• 14:17
  Speaker 5: At that point.
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: She was feeling angry and unheard, and she turned to
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: her Facebook friends. In this Facebook chat with herd a
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: little bit about she felt that those women were her
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: cheer squad, and it was in that group that she
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: explained that they talked about religion, life, children and the
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: things they cooked and news events. But when she was
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: feeling this frustration, she turned to them and she sent
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: them a few messages about the family. And these were
• 14:41
  Speaker 4: messages she said in the witness box today that she
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: deeply regretted that there are ones that she was quite
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: emotional about when they were being read out. She had
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: a lot of regret, she was saying, and felt really
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: ashamed that the family had to listen to those as
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: they were read out in court.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and as the listeners will have heard us talk
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: about many times. These messages are up on the screen
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: for the jury to read, and it's on their iPads
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: as well, and as part of it, Colin Man DSc as.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: Different barristers often have have read out different parts of
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: what's being shown on the screen, and Aaron Patterson was
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: certainly seemed quite emotional during this time.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: She was struggling to get some.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: Of her words out, particularly when she was asked about
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: this message which will go to in a moment, But
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: she was really talking about that she wanted Don and
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: Gail Patterson to be adjudicating in the things that were
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: going on between her and Simon at that time. But
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: as you'll hear, she now feels she said to the
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: jury that that really wasn't what she should have been
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: asking at the time. He's a little bit of the
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: evidence as it was presented to the court.
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: It's no one's real voice.
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: Did you communicate with each other about personal things?
• 15:50
  Speaker 6: Yes?
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: And was there something that you did or everyone did?
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: We all did, and that is personal things about your relationships.
• 15:57
  Speaker 6: Correct. It became a safe vent in space for all
• 16:00
  Speaker 6: of us.
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: And how did it feel when you were venting in
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: that space?
• 16:04
  Speaker 6: I felt heard and validated and understood.
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: Because when you were saying things like this, this family,
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: I swear to God, what kind of responses, were you
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: getting well?
• 16:16
  Speaker 6: I mean, and even if you include the sentence beforehand
• 16:19
  Speaker 6: about the emojis and about the praying. I knew that
• 16:22
  Speaker 6: the women would probably support me being annoyed about those things,
• 16:26
  Speaker 6: and so I said to them, knowing that they would
• 16:29
  Speaker 6: latch on and you know, like become like a cheer
• 16:32
  Speaker 6: squad for your problem, if that makes sense.
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: Yes. And in terms of the communication on this online
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: friends chat, did you regard it as private? Yeah?
• 16:42
  Speaker 6: It did. Yeah, it was private.
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: Looking at those words now, this family, I swear to God,
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: how do you feel about it?
• 16:52
  Speaker 6: I wish i'd never said it. I feel very I
• 16:55
  Speaker 6: feel ashamed for saying it, and I wish the family
• 16:57
  Speaker 6: didn't have to hear that I said it. They didn't
• 17:00
  Speaker 6: deserve it.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: We'll take a break and when we return, we'll come
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: back with Aaron Patterson's evidence. When she was being asked
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: about her interest in mushrooms, now, Aaron Patterson, as again
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: part of these Facebook messages, was asked about whether she
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: sort of told her Facebook friends and told that through
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: her barrister that the courts heard evidence from some of
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: these Facebook friends that she had a real love of mushrooms,
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: and she agreed.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: That yes, she did.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: She thought that these were really healthy, and she said
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: that they were just really tasty.
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: It was something that she really enjoyed eating. It was
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: an answer that she gave again and again over a
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: certain window of this questioning. And the mother of two
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: told the jury that she really developed this interest in
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: mushrooms and foraging also of mushrooms Penny during the COVID pandemic,
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: and that was around twenty twenty for those who may
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: not remember, but it was the March or April of
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: twenty twenty, and she was remembering.
• 17:53
  Speaker 5: That she would go on walks with her kids.
• 17:54
  Speaker 4: She want to take the kids off the screens and
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: get them out of the house, and they would go
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: for a walk to the nearby coral Borough Potanical Gardens,
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: and that's where she said she first started to see
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: mushrooms or get a bit of an interesting in them,
• 18:06
  Speaker 4: notice them, and then that spread over the following couple
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: of years to looking for them at a nearby rail
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: trail and also in her own backyard. There were places
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: that she remembered picking them.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And throughout this evidence, the listeners will hear when
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: Aaron Patterson is referring to different properties. There's two properties
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: being referred to, one called Shelcott Road and one Gibson
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: Street in Lee and Gatha. Now, she spoke about this
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: love of mushrooms, of the taste of them, of putting
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: them in food, and she was also asked about shopping
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: for them, you know, at Grosses on trips to Melbourne,
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: and she said she pretty much every school holidays would
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: take her kids on a trip to Melbourne and that's
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: often when she'd go shopping and buy some of these
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: different types of mushrooms. And she listed off lots of
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: different varieties like puccini, shaitaki.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: And will take you.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: To a little bit of the evidence where Aaron Patterson
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: was being asked, particularly about this love of mushrooms and
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: about some of the different types of mushrooms.
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: The jury has been.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: Shown in the evidence. This is some more of Colin
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: Mandy and Aaron Patterson. It's not their real voices.
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: We've seen some images of the kinds of mushrooms that
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: are sold in shops like that. Yeah, did you buy
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: those kinds of mushrooms?
• 19:13
  Speaker 6: Yeah? I did, not those black ones. I wouldn't have
• 19:16
  Speaker 6: bought ones like them, but other ones.
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: Yes, And how would you use them.
• 19:21
  Speaker 6: I'd use them in curries or pasta dishes or soup, spaghetti.
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: And what did you like about the more exotic mushrooms.
• 19:29
  Speaker 6: It just tastes more interesting, there's more flavor.
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: You've talked about COVID and noticing wild mushrooms.
• 19:35
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: She also shared a memory Penny of watching her dog
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: eat some mushrooms in her backyard and it was at
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: that point she said she wanted to try and figure
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: out what they were, to see if there was a
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: problem or there could be a problem for her dog.
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: And she explained that's when she started researching a little bit.
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: She joined some mushroom Facebook groups. She said, there's Facebook
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: groups for everything out there, but it was a couple
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: of mushroom Facebook groups she said had a lot of posts.
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: She spent a bit of time scrawling through them, and
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: as her foraging continued to evolve, she recalled picking other
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: different types of mushrooms and she was able to name
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: them a honey mushroom, a.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: Slippery jack mushroom, and she said that they were the
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: ones that she'd actually picked in Carra and Burrough Botanical Gardens.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: At one point that she noted that there was often
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: some really interesting.
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: Type of mushrooms. She described them there and.
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: She said when she had particularly picked those that she
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: found them, that they tasted really good. And going back
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: to when she sort of was concerned about her dog
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: maybe eating some mushrooms, this was on this Shelcott Road property.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: And she went on to tell the jury and be
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: asked a little bit about sort of approaching that situation
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: and doing all this identifying with the Facebook groups and
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: through the evidence with her barrister, she was taken through
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: when she first ate wild mushrooms, and she sort of
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: gave through her evidence that it was while they were
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: at this property, after she'd been on the Facebook group.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: She said she may have even been posting on them,
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: and that she felt that she kind of could idea
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: to fire the particular mushroom, which was quite confident in that, yeah,
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: that were around her home, and that then she moved
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: to actually eating some of them. Let's hear a little
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: bit more of the evidence between Aaron Patterson and Colin
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: man dysc as it was heard by the jury.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: It's voiced by actors.
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: In terms of the ones that you found growing in
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: Shelcott Road, did you identify them?
• 21:21
  Speaker 6: I identified the ones that were growing in the paddocks
• 21:24
  Speaker 6: where I had the animals, yet to a degree I
• 21:27
  Speaker 6: was confident of.
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And what did you think they were?
• 21:30
  Speaker 6: There were field mushrooms and horse mushrooms in those paddocks.
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: And did you consume them?
• 21:36
  Speaker 6: Yeah, eventually I did.
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: Yes. When you say eventually, what was the process?
• 21:41
  Speaker 6: I mean it was a process over several months in
• 21:44
  Speaker 6: the lead up to it. But you know, when I
• 21:47
  Speaker 6: got to a point where I was confident about what
• 21:49
  Speaker 6: I thought they were, I cut a bit off one
• 21:52
  Speaker 6: of the mushrooms, fried it up with some butter and
• 21:54
  Speaker 6: ate it and then saw what happened.
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: Then what happened?
• 21:58
  Speaker 6: They tasted good and I didn't get.
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: And thereafter what did you do with the mushrooms that
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: you found on that property?
• 22:05
  Speaker 6: So? If I saw mushrooms the same mushrooms growing, I
• 22:07
  Speaker 6: would usually pick them and eat them and sometimes put
• 22:10
  Speaker 6: them in meals.
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: We all ate what months did they grow in?
• 22:13
  Speaker 6: So are there were lots of them in autumn, tapering
• 22:16
  Speaker 6: off a little bit to winter. Yeah.
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: How big was the property at Shelcott Road. I'm not
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: sure if you've said that already.
• 22:22
  Speaker 6: It was three acres. It was a house block with gardens,
• 22:26
  Speaker 6: and two paddocks for animals.
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: You said you put them in meals? We all ate.
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: Does that mean you and the children?
• 22:33
  Speaker 6: Yeah?
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: How did you put them in the children's meals? What
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: did you do?
• 22:37
  Speaker 6: I chopped them up very very small so they couldn't
• 22:39
  Speaker 6: pick them out.
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: Now.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: Aaron Patterson also was taken in her evidence to buying
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: a dehydrator, and she told the court yes, she had
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: bought a dehydrator in the April of twenty twenty three,
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: and that she'd shared that news with her friends on Facebook.
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: She was also taken to a number.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: Of photos from this particular Facebook chat and some messages
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: about drying mushrooms at that time.
• 23:00
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: She said that it was yeah, April twenty twenty three
• 23:02
  Speaker 4: that she decided to buy this dehydrator, and the reasons
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: were she wanted to preserve both wild and store bought mushrooms,
• 23:09
  Speaker 4: as well as potentially other foods. She was explaining to
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: the jury that sometimes mushrooms were all always available at
• 23:16
  Speaker 4: the supermarket at the stores.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: She also noted that sometimes she wanted to preserve these
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: wild mushrooms too, and she talked about the fact that
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: she felt she usually would see them around the autumn
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: of years, but that she wanted to preserve some of
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: those mushrooms for her cooking as well.
• 23:30
  Speaker 4: It was at that point Penny she was asked questions
• 23:33
  Speaker 4: about whether or not she may have picked any mushrooms
• 23:36
  Speaker 4: or if she had picked any mushrooms in or around
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: any oak trees. Aaron Patterson at this point, was sitting
• 23:42
  Speaker 4: facing the jury. Her defense barrister again was on her
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: right asking questions. He was on his feet, and she
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: was sitting on an office chair, and that's when she
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: sort of sat and she looked up to the side
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: as if she was thinking, and explained that while she
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: was at the caran Borough Botanical Gardens, she did think
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: that perhaps she would have picked some mushrooms near an
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: oak tree, but didn't believe it was under an oak tree. Yeah.
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: And she noted through this part of her evidence that
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: when she was being asked broadly about the areas that
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: she'd picked mushrooms and who might have seen her between
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: this sort of twenty twenty to twenty twenty three period,
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: she said that her children, especially during the sort of
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: COVID lockdown periods, were with her on these walks and
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: that they may have perhaps even pointed out some mushrooms
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: that she picked, but she did say that she certainly
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: remembered that maybe there were these oak trees at the gardens,
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: but that she didn't think she'd picked anything from directly
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: under them. She was asked as part of this evidence,
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: and we know the listeners are probably aware by now
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: as we mention it quite a bit that it does
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: jump around quite a bit the evidence, and she was
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: also asked sort of around this time the mushrooms.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: For the meal that she cooked.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: She acknowledged that yes, she believed that that meal did
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: contain death cap mushrooms, but when asked where the mushrooms
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: for that meal had come from, she said the vast
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: majority had come from the Woolworth the Lee and Gatha woollies,
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: she said, and from a grocer, a Melbourne grocer. And
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: her barrister then took her through a bit more information
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: regarding these particular mushrooms from the grocer, and she noted
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: that they were very pungent in smell. She remembered she
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: thought she'd got them maybe in the April school holidays,
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: that they'd visited their home in Mount Waverley, and that
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: when she had gone to buy them, she couldn't exactly
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: remember where or when she got them, but she could
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: remember that she'd got them to make a particular dish.
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: Smell was really strong, so she had.
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: Put them in a container and popped them away, But
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: then she later bought that container with her back to
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: her home in land Gatha.
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah, this is a little bit more about what she
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: had to say while she was in the witness box.
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: You've said that you bought some mushrooms from an Asian
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: grocer in April. Yes, was that when you were staying
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: at Mount Waverley, Correct, And there's been some evidence about
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: what you did with those mushrooms. What's your memory of
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: what you did with those mushrooms?
• 26:00
  Speaker 6: So the day I remember that I was going to
• 26:03
  Speaker 6: use them the day that I bought them, but they
• 26:05
  Speaker 6: were very pungent. I didn't think that would be a
• 26:07
  Speaker 6: great smell for what I was making, so I just
• 26:10
  Speaker 6: put him a container and put them in the pantry
• 26:12
  Speaker 6: at that point, and.
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: What happens to that container in the pantry.
• 26:15
  Speaker 6: So I took the container back home to Gibson Street
• 26:18
  Speaker 6: when we went home.
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: After the April correct. And so you have mentioned putting
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: some dehydrated mushrooms in a container in the pantry.
• 26:28
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: Was that at Gibson Street.
• 26:30
  Speaker 6: Yes?
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: And you mentioned putting the Asian grosser mushrooms in a container, yes,
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: a tupperware container, yes, which also ended up at Gibbson Street.
• 26:40
  Speaker 6: Correct.
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: Was that container from Mount Waverley in your pantry at
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: Gibson Street when you dehydrated the mushrooms in May and June?
• 26:48
  Speaker 6: Yes, it was.
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: And the mushrooms that you dehydrated, you said you put
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: them into a container. What container did you put them into?
• 26:56
  Speaker 6: Well, generally I would put them into a container that
• 26:58
  Speaker 6: I already sort of had going with the woolies mushrooms
• 27:01
  Speaker 6: and whatnot in there, so I will just dry them
• 27:03
  Speaker 6: and put them in a container. And if there was
• 27:05
  Speaker 6: no container, I'd start one, if that makes sense.
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: Do you have a memory of putting wild mushrooms that
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: you dehydrated in May or June of twenty twenty three
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: into a container which already contained other dried mushrooms.
• 27:19
  Speaker 6: Yes, I did do that.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: Now that's all that the jury has heard from Aaron
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: Patterson so far. Will bring you more evidence when it's
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: presented to the court. Thank you for listening to this
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: episode of Say Grace, Please press the follow button in
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: your app to get our next episodes as soon as
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: we publish.
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: For more reporting on the case, check out the Age
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: of nine News in your browser or app store.
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: We'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: that this podcast was recorded on and wherever you're listening
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: to it now.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: Say Grace is created and hosted by me Penelope Lesh
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: and me erin person.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: This podcast is produced by Genevieve Rule