Latest / Another Bloody Podcast / Lethal Cocktail? Alcohol & Women’s Health

Transcript

Lethal Cocktail? Alcohol & Women’s Health · Another Bloody Podcast

0:01
Hi, I'm Heather.
0:02
And I'm Lisa.
0:03
And this is another Bloody Podcast, where we talk about women's healthcare from a different angle, one that leverages our decades of experience as journalists and our personal health journeys.
0:13
From brain fog to vagina drama, and every taboo subject in between, think of us as the friends who say out loud all the things your doctor should have mentioned but somehow didn't.
0:24
Join us now for a public conversation about our private parts.
0:33
Hi, Heather.
0:34
Hey, Lisa.
0:35
How's it going? I'm all right.
0:37
I wanted to ask you, did you have a cocktail last night? I did.
0:43
Well, it wasn't a cocktail.
0:44
I had a beer during the day.
0:48
I'm on, I'm camping, so so yes, I had a beer during the day, and then at night I poured a glass of wine and I drank probably three quarters of it, and then I was too tired, so I just went to bed.
I did not have a cocktail last night, but the night before I had a glass of sangria.
It was delicious.
And the night before that was book club, so I had two cocktails.
Mm-hmm.
And I did not really feel bad about it, but apparently we are now supposed to feel bad about it.
So let's talk about it.
Okay.
Let's talk about women, their health risks, particularly cancer risk, and alcohol.
1:35
Okie dokie.
1:36
I know.
How much are they gonna take away from us- I don't know until our life is joyless? I'm telling you, you're about to ruin my night, but thanks.
So you and I are around the same age, which means you were probably in prime young adulthood, when all of that research came out about the French paradox.
Mm-hmm.
1:59
Do you remember? Yes.
This is the thing about how red wine is really good for you, and French people are healthier despite the fact that they drink a lot more than us, et cetera.
Right.
2:17
Right.
And well, the paradox initially that researchers wanted to look at, this was back in the 1990s, was that if French people ate so much rich food, and at that time we really were in the paradigm of fatty foods, food with lots of sauces, all these things that we thought of as, like, artery clogging.
You know, that was the major kind of driver of poor health.
Mm-hmm.
It was not quite yet the era of, well, no, actually it's sugars and carbohydrates.
This was more- Yeah in the eat no fat era, correct? Right.
It's coming out of the eat no fat era.
As we've spoken about before, in a few years, in just a few years, it's going to become keto diet, caveman diet, the Atkins diet, are gonna come to the fore.
But it's not really happening yet when this body of research- begins.
So they're saying, "Why are French people living longer than American people? Why do they have lower rates of obesity when they eat all this rich food?" And their conclusion was they always have red wine with dinner.
Or it even became expanded to just a drink, one drink a day is good for you.
Mm-hmm.
And it only gets bad for you when you're talking about two, three drinks a day, and getting into what was considered unhealthy drinking.
Up to that point, a little alcohol was perceived to be good for your health, and this was being published in legitimate medical journals.
I remember this scene.
I don't know why I think about this somewhat regularly, but do you remember that movie, The Kids Are All Right? Yes.
Annette Bening plays a woman who, I don't think it's explicitly said in the film, but there's a suggestion that she drinks a little too much.
And her wife says something about it one night, and she's like, "Red wine is good for you."
I think they're in a, in an argument, and her wife is like, "Do you know how much red wine you would need to drink for it to actually have the impact that you're suggesting?" And I kind of think about that every time I drink red wine.
By the way, that is such a good movie.
I know.
I mean, see that movie.
In fact, see all of that director's movies.
Mm-hmm.
They're all fantastic.
Okay, so that...
Just moving on.
I think you and I were young adults, just kind of emerging into coming out of, like, maybe college drinking culture, emerging into- young adults, new professional career focus, looking for ways to kind of pivot from one type of drinking culture to a different type of socializing.
And that research for me hit at just the right time for me to go, "Well, great."
It's good for me, you know? Right.
Right.
So unfortunately for, I think, a lot of people kind of in our age range, particularly if like me, during COVID you got into a habit of sort of coffee all morning and then starting drinking in, the minute it turned 5:00, because I was homeschooling my kid.
Mm-hmm.
And I was trying to keep up with my professional life, and none of sort of these remote work, kind of processes were really nailed down yet.
We were all just kind of learning as we were going.
It was very stressful.
Yeah.
And alcohol became for a lot of people the marker of the end of the workday.
So as like typically we would've had our commute home or our walk home or, you know, going to the gym or whatever it is you do after work to unwind, none of that existed, and a lot of people turned to alcohol, as a way to kind of delineate the workday from their free time.
Yeah.
And there has been some, you know, there have been jokes about it, but I think there is some evidence that women, Gen X women, older millennial women, women who are at this point going through menopause and perimenopause and maybe starting to have some health effects, we were caught in a real stress cycle, and alcohol was a way that a lot of us dealt with that.
Mm-hmm.
Um, right? We were upping our, our alcohol intake.
We were no longer doing it in just a social way.
We might have been drinking with just our partner or even by ourselves.
So, you know, I think that some of this research that's now coming out that links any alcohol use whatsoever to heightened healthcare risks, particularly for women, it's kind of hitting us at a point where that's a really stressful thing for us to hear.
So I'm gonna talk a little bit about what they're now finding.
In terms of what are the health benefits of going completely alcohol-free, what are some of the things that alcohol does chemically inside our bodies- Mm-hmm and, you know, where the research is kind of pointing now.
So.
Okay.
And I will tell you, I'm still gonna drink on occasion, so I'm just putting that out there.
I read all of it, and it didn't dissuade me.
Mm.
I might be a little more careful about it, but that's it.
So, I, I guess I wanna start with what actually happens inside our bodies that might heighten healthcare risks when we drink.
So these are the things that are caused inside your body when you drink, even a small amount.
It increases your estrogen levels, which can indeed heighten your risk for certain types of breast cancers.
So it's particularly dangerous for women.
I read that too and, you know, I read it too late for me, but I also read that it can exacerbate endometriosis.
I did not come across that.
Tell me about that part.
Which I did not know.
Well, it impacts your estrogen levels, which- Okay and inflammation.
Mm.
Oh, of course.
I didn't find anything that said that alcohol can cause endo, but I did find that there are recommendations for women with endometriosis to limit or eliminate alcohol.
And, mostly what I read was that the inflammation and the increased estrogen in your body can make your pain worse.
That makes sense.
Nobody ever mentioned that to me.
I'm not sure if it would've made a difference, but I didn't know about it until recently.
And so heads up, endo ladies.
I think some of these findings are fairly new, or they were dismissed in the past as, "Well, it can't possibly be increasing the estrogen levels enough to make any difference" but now the research seems to be saying, no, it can make a difference.
So the estrogen is, is the first component.
The next component, 'cause I, I was very confused because I knew that fermented foods are good for your body.
Mm-hmm.
And I thought, well, it is a type of fermentation, right? Like, alcohol can be produced naturally in the wild from fermented fruit without humans even doing anything to it.
Right, like apples.
Not...
yeah.
Not a lot.
You know, usually we're, we're taking part in making the fermentation go toward alcohol.
But it can happen.
And so I thought, well, if fermentation is good for you, why would alcohol be bad? And it's not digested the same way that other forms of fermentation are.
In fact, it's not digested at all.
Hmm.
It's absorbed and converted into something called, I'm gonna mangle this, acetaldehyde, which is a substance that occurs as your body's trying to process the alcohol.
And this substance harms DNA.
And that is the main reason that alcohol is considered a carcinogen.
And it's considered a carcinogen up there with tobacco and asbestos.
It's that level of carcinogen.
Okay.
Nobody told us that when we were kids.
No.
No way.
No, no.
So I have known for a long time that alcohol is linked to breast cancer.
Oh, I didn't know it.
And, um, the advice...
Well, maybe I knew it because of my friend Nancy.
Oh, okay.
And I've known a couple of breast cancer survivors over the years who have chosen to quit drinking.
Mm-hmm.
So I must have read something about it then.
But I never understood what the link was.
Yeah.
And I also don't know anything about, the other types of cancer that alcohol is, uh, linked to.
Do you? Yeah.
Yeah, I do.
So I'm gonna go through the different ways that it contributes to cancer, and then I'll talk about the- Great different kinds of cancer.
So, and my breast cancer is not an estrogen positive cancer, so I'm probably gonna try to be more cognizant of drinking, especially on the very rare occasion I might have more than one.
But, I often will go, like, two months without having a single drink.
Like, I'm not a frequent drinker anyway, so.
So it also reduces our ability to metabolize nutrients.
Mm-hmm.
And getting proper nutrition and nutrients is another way our body defends itself against all kinds of disease, including cancer.
It particularly makes it hard for us to metabolize folate, and folate's very important in protecting our DNA from mutation, and it's DNA mutation, that leads to cells kind of growing out of control and to cancer.
It affects tissues, so it acts as a, almost like a solvent that breaks down tissue, including particularly along the throat.
So this increases the risk of esophageal cancers, and it impairs our ability to filter other toxins.
And one thing that is gonna be very disappointing for a lot of people, I think, is that drinking and smoking is a very deadly combo, right? So I guess that means habitually...
I, I don't know if that would pertain to people who every once in a while, two or three times a year, like to nostalgically have, like, a drink and a smoke, and they're not regular smokers and they're not excessive drinkers.
I, I'm not sure.
But anyway, that combination- I understand- is not great why they're dangerous separately, but why are they more dangerous together? Because so if you're drinking- it's breaking down the tissues in your throat.
Mm-hmm.
And when you smoke, you're taking in toxins that cause cancer of the throat and esophagus.
Gotcha.
You know, so it's...
You're just- Well, I might be- Yeah fucked.
Y- you like a drink- 'Cause I smoked- and a ciggy, huh? Well, not anymore, but I used to.
I used to love a drink and a ciggy, and, it's been years now, but, like, I was never a daily smoker, but give me a couple glasses of wine and I would wrestle you to the ground for one.
So- Yeah fingers crossed I stopped in time.
You're one of a handful of friends I have who are not really addicted to smoking, never have been, were never habitual smokers, but several times a year, you know, loved a cocktail and a cigarette, and I kind of feel bad- It was more than several times a year for me.
Yeah.
Um, but- I mean, if you're able to have that kind of, like, willpower where you can just do that on occasion, I just think, gosh, you're not allowed to even do that? That seems, seems harsh.
I know.
I know.
I was a very, very, hypocritical smoker.
During the day, dead sober, I was like, "Ugh, that is- revolting."
And then- once those defenses came down with a couple of drinks, I was like, "Give it to me, baby."
I don't know how those two things so frequently get linked, but I, they did for me, for sure.
I mean, I think, you know, you're doing something with both of your hands.
You don't have to feel awkward.
You're usually doing it in a social situation.
I totally get it.
Honestly, I'm a person who never smoked who's like, "It looks so cool, though."
Anyway, you shouldn't do it.
It's like, It's like spotting a zebra now, because so few people smoke.
But when I see people, I'm like, "Wow, they're still out there."
Yeah.
But anyway, I digress.
But yeah, maybe that's how drinking is gonna become.
Anyway, the final thing that it does that can increase all kinds of health risks, including digestive cancers, colorectal cancers, is that it causes weight gain.
Mm-hmm.
Because it's empty calories, as we all know.
And, so that's kind of the final, the final thing.
I would like to say something about that, and I'll have to find the research or the source of this, for the show notes.
But I read not too long ago that, you know, we've always heard about beer bellies.
Mm-hmm.
And, that alcohol is high in empty calories, and that's why people gain weight from it.
But what I have read more recently is that, your body works so hard to metabolize alcohol- Yeah that it does a less good job of metabolizing your food properly.
Oh.
And that that actually is what contributes to weight gain, because all of your systems- Interesting are working overtime to clear your body of the toxins that you've ingested with the alcohol, that it's not at full capacity for processing food properly.
You know what I'm wondering too, is if that could be an explanation.
Maybe we need an expert on to ask some of these questions too.
But if you've ever known someone who eats very, very little- Mm-hmm uh, maybe even is a high-functioning anorexic who's also a heavy drinker- Mm-hmm sometimes they are terrifyingly thin, and I wonder if that's part of it Maybe.
Yeah.
I was more interested in the reverse.
Mm-hmm.
I think for me it was a combination of things, menopause among them.
But, in my research about why I was gaining weight, I came across- Yeah this, information about alcohol and how it interrupts your body's ability to metabolize your food.
Right.
Well, it does, pertain to the point that the medical researchers are making, so if you're not digesting your food as effectively because of the alcohol processing, and you're not taking in the nutrients from that food as efficiently, then that's yet another way that you're kind of leaving your body vulnerable, so.
Some of the cancers that have been linked to alcohol use are, as we mentioned, breast, neck, and esophageal, colorectal, also, liver, which obviously that makes sense.
Even in the good old days when they were telling us to drink, they were telling us to, "Maybe don't drink if your family has a history of liver disease and liver cancer."
Mm-hmm.
And of course, alcoholism has always been linked to liver disease and liver cancer.
And heavy to moderate drinking has been linked to all of these types of cancers in the past.
What's new is, as of 2023, the World Health Organization and other medical bodies have amended this to say even small amounts of alcohol intake increase the likelihood that you'll get all of these types of cancers, so, yeah.
So with these new guidelines, that really moved the line about what is considered heavy drinking.
And if I'm correct, it's...
I think it was, like, never more than two drinks in a sitting, and not more than once or twice a week.
Is, does that- Yeah, yeah match up to what you, what you found? So yeah, and even beyond that, with some guidelines saying- Mm it's best never to drink ever, ever in your life.
Don't ever drink.
Mm-hmm.
If you're going to drink...
Whereas the old, guidelines were like, "Oh, a little moderate drinking is fine," by which they meant one to two drinks a day.
Now they're defining that kind of moderate drinking as one drink- Maybe once or twice a week.
Right.
So they want us to really reel back in our consumption.
And there's other considerations, at least for me, beyond cancer.
You know, I've always been a pretty big drinker, you know, I guess.
Not ever having kids and kind of never, you know, I don't know.
There seems to be this, like, natural tapering off that a lot of people experience, especially when they become parents.
And while I've never been a daily drinker, I've always had the freedom to, like, stay out late on the weekends if I want and, you know, go out on a Thursday night.
And it was largely without issue for a long time, but what I have noticed over the last several years especially.
And now that I've made the connection, I can trace it back even further, but I wasn't putting two and two together, is that alcohol causes so much anxiety in me- Oh the day after.
Okay.
And I have read about this because I thought there was something wrong with me.
But it turns out that, depression and anxiety are two sides of the same coin, right? So alcohol's a depressant, and in some people, when you're coming off of alcohol, and that can be, you know, a glass or two of wine for me, I can wake up the next morning feeling like I'm about to have a crushing panic attack.
Yes.
And it's very, very uncomfortable for me.
Yes.
I mean, a crushing panic attack Yeah is uncomfortable for anybody, but it seems to really be triggered for me by overconsumption of alcohol.
And it doesn't even have to be overconsumption.
But if I have a week where I have alcohol, let's say, three days in a row, even if it's just a glass or two, I will feel it on the third day.
And, and it's not a hangover.
It's not sleepiness or a headache or nausea.
It's high alert anxiety.
You are not alone.
So that's another benefit that the medical community is saying will happen if you decide to completely stop using alcohol or cut back- a great deal is that your mental health will improve because of exactly what you're saying.
Because it can act as a way to be sort of a depressant for some people.
It can have cycles of depression into anxiety.
It can just be heightening anxiety for others.
And also our brains work better apparently, the more we abstain from alcohol, the better, we are in terms of our cognitive functioning.
Other things that happen is, we're gonna lower our risk of cardiovascular disease.
In fact, when heavy to moderate drinkers stop drinking, they will see heart health improvements on multiple parameters within a single month, which is pretty dramatic.
And then the other thing is it aids digestion, enhances liver health.
And particularly for women, and this seems a bit unfair, our liver health, and I think to a degree our pancreatic health as well, women drinkers have much higher rates of damage from drinking the same amount that men have.
We also process alcohol differently.
So, sometimes you'll see these guidelines about, how much and how slowly to drink to make sure that you remain under the legal limit and to make sure that you are still able to do complex functioning.
And it will say, you know, one drink an hour for men- for women, and up to two for men.
And in the past they've often said, well, this is because of the difference in body weight, but it turns out, it's not just body weight, it's that women's bodies process alcohol differently than men's do.
So we really cannot drink as much, and remain high functioning as men can.
And of course, there's the whole vulnerability piece and safety piece for women.
So I mean, that's really worth emphasizing, I would say, especially if you have daughters.
Mm-hmm if you're trying to go drink for drink with your guy friends, you're literally not processing it the same way they are.
So you, you just have to be cautious.
Yeah.
So- Yeah, I think that this topic merits more than one conversation.
Um- Yeah I definitely have spent a decent amount of time over the last few years reevaluating my relationship to alcohol.
What is it adding? What is it subtracting? Yeah.
And it's an ongoing conversation, but, I think that There's a whole other piece to this, which is, I mean, you touched on it, but, the impact on brain function and, there is some research that's being done about, like, how heavy drinking can impact your mental capacity as you age.
Yes.
And that's something that, you know, of course you don't think about when you're in a fraternity basement when you're 20.
Right.
But I do think about it now.
And, I would like to learn more about that.
So I'd love to get an expert on here to talk about how we can, as women, protect our brains from, a variety of things, and I think alcohol will probably be a decent segment of that conversation.
And I think so much of that kind of also goes into sleep, especially for perimenopausal and menopausal women.
There are so many things that are disrupting our sleep.
And if you add alcohol into the mix, then that becomes yet another one.
Yes.
That affects our cognition.
That affects pretty much every aspect of our health.
Absolutely.
The sleep piece for me, a- and, you know, this relates back to the anxiety.
Because what happens typically for me is that I fall asleep just fine, and then I don't know if it's, like, as the alcohol and the sugars are wearing off, but I tend to wake up at, like, 3:00, 4:00, 5:00 in the morning- Yes and not be able to get back to sleep, and it doesn't matter what time I've gone to bed.
And then that becomes a whole gerbil wheel in and of itself of, like, exhaustion and anxiety and, I mean, more and more, as much as I enjoy having margaritas with my girlfriends, I do find myself wondering if it's worth it.
Right.
Right.
And I mean, we have all been drinking for more than 10,000 years.
Yeah.
There's evidence of this.
And there's references to it in every religious text and in, and so many, works of art.
So we've been doing this to ourselves a long, long time.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, there definitely is that element of it as social lubricant that is really still very attractive and appealing.
And it sounds as if the biggest bang for your buck would be completely stop drinking, never have another drink for the rest of your life, and you'll get the maximum health benefit.
I don't think I'm gonna go that far, but I probably am going to, you know, try to make the, I don't know, eight or nine or 10 times a year that I drink, I'm probably gonna make sure that that stays within the one drink limit most of the time, and I might try to get that down to maybe six times a year.
I am probably gonna be a little more cognizant of it, because some of this research was very convincing and a little bit scary.
I don't- know if I can make that same promise.
But, it is top of mind for me, especially after- Yeah this conversation.
And I do take breaks a couple times a year.
I do dry January every year, and often a second month sometime along the way.
Right.
Um- There's sober October apparently.
Yes.
I mean, the problem for me in the past has been that it's my birthday in October, and that's kind of- Oh like a, you know, not a great time to, like, eliminate it.
Yeah.
But this year for my birthday, I'm going on a yoga retreat.
Oh.
So it's not going to be, like, a party vacation.
It's gonna be doing yoga two times a day and wanting to be healthy and get good sleep.
So maybe I'll do it that month.
And, you know, there's been part of me that has wondered, like, as a personal challenge could I take a whole year off and see how that feels because- Yeah after a week or two of...
Like, I've gone three months before, and after a week or two I do kind of forget about it.
The first couple weeks are, I wouldn't say uncomfortable, but, like, you have to remind yourself how to socialize without it, to plan activities that don't...
So many social activities to one extent or another revolve around alcohol.
Meeting for drinks.
Yeah.
Meeting for dinner often involves a glass of wine.
And what I find often is that when I am taking these good, long breaks, doing things with friends like taking a hike or having brunch or something else is just as fun and just as fulfilling, and- You know, there's no...
There's less of a temptation to succumb to having a drink.
They are getting, a lot better, with the mocktails.
Yes.
Like, some mixologists are geniuses at it.
There's one in my hometown, I believe he went to the Culinary Institute, in New York, and he doesn't try to make them taste like alcohol.
He does these combinations of spices so that they have a flavor and palate kick that kind of makes your body react almost like there's alcohol.
Mm-hmm.
It's...
They're amazing.
They're really fun and amazing, so you can do that instead.
Well, and the non-alcoholic beverage industry has come a really long way.
Yeah.
Back in the day- I think that's true you were lucky if you could find one non-alcoholic beer at a bar or restaurant, and now there's several.
There's a brand called Athletic Brew, I think- Mm-hmm that makes beer.
I like IPAs, and their- Yes non-alcoholic IPA tastes...
I mean, blindfolded I probably would have no idea.
Yeah.
Yeah People are taking more pride in really concocting something that is, you know, a real craft.
S- And then there are, non-alcoholic bars opening.
There's a place in Brooklyn called Soft Bar- which is completely alcohol-free, and I have not been, but, these concepts I keep hearing popping up, um- Yeah and I also, I, I don't have any research about this, but anecdotally what I'm noticing is that young people seem to drink less than we did- Yes when we were young.
Um- I did come across that in my research, that, there seems to be some valid data to indicate that, Gen Z is, and now I guess Gen Alpha, they aren't doing the binge drinking as young people as much as we did.
So maybe it's falling out of favor.
Now they're just- Yeah taking ketamine.
Well, there is an argument that I read that it had more to do with, the availability and the legality of cannabis.
And just like alcohol, I would be very careful about underdeveloped brains using it.
Yes.
Um, for a variety of reasons.
Yes.
So.
Yeah, yeah.
Before you're 20, I mean, your brain is still doing a lot of cooking.
Mm-hmm.
Up until the age of 25 or 26.
Unfortunately, starting with prohibition in America, we've had drinking culture and drinking ritual that really focused on large intake at exactly the point where your brain is developing very rapidly.
I think that too probably contributes to some of these really bad health outcomes- Yeah for alcohol use.
And I'm, and I would say that cannabis, you know, a lot of very young people are using it.
Mm-hmm.
Maybe be cautious because your brain is still, you know, it's in its, its final really rapid growth phase, right? Yeah.
Until you're 25 or 26, it's really precious.
It's a precious time.
Um, right? And, uh, and but you, you also are at a point in your life where you really wanna connect with people and- Mm-hmm if you have any little bit of anxiety or lack- Right of self-esteem, these things are social lubricants.
Mm-hmm.
So it is, it's so enticing to say, "Well, you know, I'll just, I'll just chill out with a little of this and a little of that."
But it's, it's your one precious brain, you know? Well, and I think with both alcohol and cannabis- It's not always a one-size-fits-all conversation.
Mm-hmm.
As we've learned through all of these discussions we've had about different topics, everybody's body is different and reacts to substances especially in different ways.
And so you have to be really in touch with yourself, your habits, connecting the dots about how it's making you feel while you're using it, in the aftermath of using it, and just make adjustments to keep yourself healthy and keep yourself rested and mentally stable.
I mean, that might be where the French have it right, because they do allow their kids at a fairly young age to start using small amounts of alcohol in the home with the parents, with the family, rather than making them feel like they have to go sneak and, and then overindulge maybe.
Right.
And there are so many other reasons that the French could be living longer too, right? So.
Maybe it's the French cigarettes.
I don't know.
Or the actual healthcare.
Yeah.
Or the actually clean food.
Right, exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Anyway.
Yep all right.
So do you think we covered it? I think we did.
And I think the takeaway is I'm not probably going to be doing much changing of my drinking habits.
Well, I'll be honest, I have some sparkling rosé in the cooler and I am gonna be having one later, so.
Oh, sounds delicious.
Food for thought, however.
This may be an evolution, not a radical change for me.
Well, I look forward to the next time you see me and I see you.
Me too.
And we do have a cocktail.
I know, me too.
'Cause that's always fun.
All right.
Good chat, Lisa.
Bye.
Bye.
More information about the sources we used for this episode can be found in the show notes and at our website, anotherbloodypodcast.com.
If you have comments about this episode, stories you wanna share, or future topics to suggest, please DM us on Instagram at anotherbloody underscore pod or send us a note on our website.
Our logo was designed by illustrator Stephanie Augustine.
You can find more of her work at stephanieaugustine.com.
Finally, please keep in mind that the content presented on this podcast is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only and should not be regarded as a substitute for medical advice.
And please take care of yourselves.