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Lean Into Legacy -The Grief We Don't Talk About, Trauma, Loss, and Learning to Live Forward · Military Broadcast Radio | MBR Talk

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  Where our veterans voices are heard.
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  MBR talk. Hey folks, thanks for tuning in.
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  You're giving veterans a voice today, powered by Work Simple,
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  where we simplify your mission. Find us on the web at MB.
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  Radio dot catch me every military Monday night at 8:00 PM
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  Eastern for Lean Into Legacy. Have you ever experienced grief
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  in your life and you're finding that you're not able to get over
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  it? Maybe months down the line or
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  even years on the outside you're able to perform and you're able
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  to exist in the world, but on the inside you feel like you can
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  never get over what's happened to you?
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  Well, we're going to talk about that exact thing today with my
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  very special guest, Kiva Harper. She is a licensed clinical
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  social worker. And Kiva, what does that S stand
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  for? I'm a supervisor with our our
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  board, so I supervise social workers who are working towards
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  their clinical license. That's a two year 3000 work
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  hour, 100 supervision hour process.
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  I've been doing that for a while.
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  So in other words, if anybody can talk about this, you can.
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  I think I can. I've been doing it for a while,
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  so I think I have a lot to concern for you.
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  I'm so thankful to have you here.
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  And for our audience, like Kiva said, she's got 20 years of
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  experience in the the field in the area of traumatic grief.
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  And we're going to talk about what's the difference between
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  grief and traumatic grief. And then also helping people
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  heal and recover through sexual assault, combat loss, domestic
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  abuse, domestic violence. I mean, anything in the realm of
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  traumatic murder, anything you can think of keep us got
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  experience with it. And before I move any further,
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  we just want to provide a trigger warning to anybody that
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  is listening or is tuning in because some of the material
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  we're going to talk about today can be very heavy and keep.
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  I'd love if you could explain that a little bit more.
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  Yes, thank you so much for for saying that for your audience
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  tonight. You know, the the topic is one
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  that's very heavy and many of us are breathing many things.
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  And so if you're listening and it gets to be difficult, it is
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  OK to step away or do whatever you have to do to take care of
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  yourself. So just proceed with caution.
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  This is probably something that's not appropriate for
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  children because they're going to have questions.
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  So you definitely don't want to have children here.
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  Thank you, Kiva. And and I just want to echo what
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  she just said about, you know, feeling like if you need to step
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  away so many times when people go through grief or anything
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  traumatic in general, I think a lot of us tend to carry hard
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  feelings towards ourself. I know I do.
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  And I would find myself saying like, suck it up, why does this
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  bother you so much? You should be able to handle
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  this, you know? And, and that's exactly what
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  Kiva's talking about. Y'all like give yourself some
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  grace and understand this is one of the hardest things to talk
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  about in life. Definitely grace.
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  Very important. And Kiva, before we dive into
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  your experience, I just love to know a little bit more about
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  you. Like what got you into this
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  field? What drew you?
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  It's a very heavy field, so I feel like you have to be a
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  special person with a really caring heart to move into a
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  field like this, but I'd love to know a little bit more about
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  your background. Thank you for that.
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  I will say that the one thing that got me into this field, the
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  most important thing is I truly believe that my purpose on
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  earth, my God-given purpose is to serve people who are hurting.
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  And I am drawn to do that work. And you're right, it is heavy,
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  but there are people that need to do that.
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  And when people are hurting and they're carrying things that are
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  so heavy, they need to be able to talk to someone that they
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  don't feel is going to have a difficult time hearing what they
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  have to say, who is able to support them through whatever it
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  is that they're dealing with. I like to say the icky stuff,
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  it's really important. And so I started my career
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  working with survivors of domestic violence.
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  And over the years that expanded to survivors of sexual assault
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  and all other things that are related to trauma.
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  And then from there, I learned more about how trauma and grief
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  intersect, and I became really passionate about helping people
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  who we're dealing with losses in the aftermath of suicide or
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  criminally negligent homicide. I had some amazing
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  opportunities, mostly in private practice, but I've also spent
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  some time working at a local medical agreement office and
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  working with families in the aftermath of a homicide or
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  suicide. Very meaningful work and very
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  needed. I I don't even know where to
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  start with that. Tell us about the challenges of
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  doing the work that you do I. Think the greatest challenge is
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  remembering to take care of yourself.
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  You know when you absorb and hear so much trauma, it affects
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  you vicariously. And so your attention to
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  yourself, care has to be has to be a priority.
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  Otherwise you will burn out and you are at risk for PTSD
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  yourself just by vicariously hearing so many stories of of
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  loss of heard of end of trauma. So I would think that would
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  probably be the greatest challenge.
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  The other challenge for me is generally when people find the
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  help that they need. A lot of damage has been done,
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  particularly with this topic, and so that one is always,
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  always difficult. When some when I meet someone
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  for the first time and they've tried other resources or other
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  avenues to get help and the the trauma is discounted and they
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  only focus on the grief. Wow.
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  And I, I'm really excited to get into that discussion because I
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  was amazed when I learned that there's a difference between how
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  you should treat regular grief versus traumatic grief.
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  Let's go ahead and go there. Keep us.
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  So what is the difference between the two?
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  I think that that's a great first question, a great place to
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  start. I often use the example of my my
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  dad. I lost my dad in 2014 of cancer.
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  And while that was incredibly traumatic for me, my dad was
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  like my, my superhero. And to see him ill and, you
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  know, getting weaker, all of these things was incredibly hard
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  for me. However, there were things that
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  are very different because while it was traumatic for me
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  emotionally, there was no trauma involved in his death.
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  And what I mean by that, in his case, there was disease.
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  You know, I knew that he had cancer and that he was likely
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  not to survive it. And as much as I didn't like it,
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  his dying was understandable because he was sick.
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  I understood what was going on, why I couldn't save him.
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  And in his case, I had time to adjust to what was happening.
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  He was on Hospice. I was able to be with him when
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  he, when he passed. We had some very special final
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  moments together. All of those things, you know.
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  And so it's difficult that that was, I understood it even though
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  I didn't like it, you know, in a case of, and I'm sorry, I have a
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  few notes here because in the evenings my brain doesn't work
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  quite as well. So I always have to just make
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  sure I have my note just to ensure I'm not missing anything.
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  I appreciate it. Cuba because especially a topic
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  like this, it's. It's yeah, yeah, it's not.
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  And in in the case of a traumatic death, and, you know,
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  I know you've dealt with that recently and you and I talked
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  about that there are some things that are a lot different.
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  It the death is senseless. You know, with my dad's death, I
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  knew it was, it was happening. There was a process.
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  But in your case, it was abrupt and, and, and senseless.
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  A good friend of mine, Janice Harris Lord, wrote a book called
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  No Time for Goodbyes. It's just a shameless plug in
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  the commercial for her. She doesn't even know that I'm
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  doing this, but she's done most of my training for me.
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  And her book says No Time for Goodbyes.
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  And I think that's a perfect example of when this happens,
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  you don't expect it. It's sudden and you're usually
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  not prepared for it. It's always abrupt and
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  unexpected. There are something called the
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  3D Doctor Ted Ryerson has done a lot of work in this area, and he
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  says there's violence to the body and there's violation and
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  that the death is transgressive in some in some way.
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  You know, there was either some negligence on someone's part or
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  something intentional someone's part that caused this.
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  And there is volition that the dying is a human act of
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  intention to some degree, even if it's suicide.
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  So those three things make it very different.
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  And then the other thing is that there may be different
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  involvement. You know what, in my dad's case,
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  he was, he was on Hospice and we had, you know, a nurse there.
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  The chaplain came out, they took his, his human remains away.
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  We didn't have to deal with the police, you know, coming out to
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  investigate. I did not have to deal with the
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  media. You know, there was, there were
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  no court cases, things like that.
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  And often those things happen when, when trauma and grief
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  intersect. And so they're, they're very
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  different. And when we either help people
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  as a friend, as a professional, and we forget about the trauma
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  that's there, we're we're really doing a disservice to them.
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  Imagine, you know, you Jennifer, being in a a Group, A group with
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  me and we're talking about grief and I'm talking to my dad and
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  you have to follow that by talking about your friend.
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  You probably might feel a little uncomfortable because it's a
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  little different. And then the other thing is most
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  people who experience this type of loss, you're stuck in those
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  last few minutes of your loved ones life and the pain or, you
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  know, just even wondering how much pain they were in at that
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  time. You're stuck there.
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  And that's so heavy for you. And to speak out loud in a
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  group, you worry about how that's going to affect other
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  people. You know, you see how easy, not
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  easy, but you know, you see how I was able to just talk about my
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  dad's death pretty matter of factly, I would say, compared to
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  someone who lost someone to a suicide.
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  It's very different, you know? And so people tend to be more
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  isolated because sharing gets a reaction out of people.
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  That's very different from me saying I lost my dad to cancer.
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  You know what I'm saying? So I'd love to share with you
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  and whoever is listening that needs this episode.
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  I, my husband and I ex-husband, we were both married to the
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  military. That's what I say.
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  And the last couple years that I was getting ready to retire, I
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  said, you know, now is the time. If we're going to have kids, we
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  should do it. And so we went on that journey
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  of trying to have a child. And sure enough, I eventually
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  was able to get pregnant, you know, after a lot of medical
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  intervention and, and assistance.
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  And unfortunately I ended up losing the baby.
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  And that was something that really, really hurt and it
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  devastated me, Kiva. But I will tell you that it was
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  so challenging for me because I knew people that had a
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  stillborn. I had friends who had lost a 2
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  year old, a four year old. And in my mind, how dare I, you
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  know, how dare I talk about how devastated I am when these
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  people actually held their baby in their arms.
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  And the reason why I want to share this Cuba is because one
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  of my friends, she lost her son. He was killed in a car accident.
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  And she hosts a group for mothers that have lost a child.
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  And she had a really special guest coming to talk to the
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  group, and she invited me to come.
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  And so I sat there and, you know, tears just stringing down
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  my face because everything he said just hit so hard, Kiba.
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  But after he got finished, we went around the room and each of
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  the moms were talking about how they're doing, what they still
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  struggle with. And then my friend turned to me
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  and she said, Jen, would you like to Share your story?
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  I said, no, no, no, no, no, my, my story is not worthy of here.
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  And she said, no, everyone's story is worthy of being heard.
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  And I did not want to talk to you, but I was like, Oh my gosh,
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  like an example of my friend. He was like 21 years old.
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  You know, how do you, how do you have a, a child that you birth
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  into the world, watch grow up into a beautiful young man and
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  then he's taken from you? Like I can't in my mind, I'm
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  like, I can't come. I, I just don't have the right,
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  you know, and I don't know why we tell ourselves that.
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  But what was so life changing for me, Kiba was right when I
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  got done talking, the woman sitting next to me said, I feel
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  the exact same way you do. And then she went on to explain
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  how her son killed her, killed himself in a drug overdose.
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  And she feels the same time. She doesn't want to go to a
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  regular grief group because you've got one person saying,
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  oh, my father died of old age or my dad had cancer.
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  And then she feels almost shame that is getting in the way of
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  her expressing her grief because she's worried about how people
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  are are going to judge her or even like, the the worst things
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  really, I think come from our own mind.
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  Cuba, like something she was hearing herself say was, well,
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  how do I have the right to grieve over losing my child when
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  my child did it to himself? And that changed my, my
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  perspective in a way I can't even explain.
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  Like you just don't think about that.
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  You don't. And, and I'm so glad you said
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  that because that that is what I see so often.
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  You know, I do so many groups or I have done so many groups
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  throughout my career and when I do this group, you know, group
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  for survivors of traumatic grief, that it normally takes
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  maybe 3 or 4 sessions for group members to kind of bond and for
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  the group to come to become cohesive.
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  I've done this group maybe 1015 times over the years, if not
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  more in the first day they they become a family.
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  Whenever I've done it in person, I've left them in the parking
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  lot talking always because they found community.
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  And that community is so important.
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  And when you are with people who are dealing with grief, you have
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  that in common. But when that trauma is not
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  there, it is, you know, as uncomfortable as you felt
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  sharing your story because it was too small, other people may
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  feel that it's too big and they don't want to burden people with
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  that because they're also caring so much emotional pain
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  themselves. Sometimes it even feels
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  unbearable, and you don't want to put that on anyone else.
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  And then unfortunately, we tend to ask, you know, questions or
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  we tend to say things that are not helpful in those moments.
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  So many things. And I would love if we could
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  talk about that towards the end, you know, how, what, what not to
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  say, what's not helpful, because I think our intentions are
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  always good, you know, because we see someone that we care
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  about hurting, we want to help, you know, we want them to feel
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  better. But so many things that we say
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  and do are, are, are not helpful.
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  And I hear them all the time in the therapy room and.
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  I just want to take a minute to thank our viewers that are with
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  us right now. We appreciate you being here for
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  this conversation. And, you know, I always like to
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  tell my guests, there's really just you're talking to two
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  people, you're talking to me and you're talking to that person
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  who hopefully really needs to hear what we're talking about.
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  And, you know, that's my hope. If anyone is listening to this,
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  if they know somebody that could benefit from this conversation,
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  that they would share it with them.
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  Unfortunately, I've got a whole community from my hometown,
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  Kiva. And so my best friend of 46
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  years was killed in a car accident.
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  And a, the young man who was very young, he was also from the
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  same community and he all we know is that he drove head on
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  into my friend. And in fact, he was in that lane
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  for a while. The the two cars in front of her
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  had just swerved out of the way. And so unfortunately that was
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  part of the reason why Mindy was hit, because she didn't have a
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  chance to move out of the way. And so, you know, of course, I'm
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  thinking it from my own perspective, like how much it
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  hurts to lose her. And then when I have a chance,
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  which takes a really long time to get there, sometimes I'm
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  like, well, wait a minute, what about what about his family?
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  You know, and I, in a way, I just want to say grief is grief.
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  Or maybe grief can be a little bit different in, in terms of
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  what, you know, we're talking about traumatic grief versus
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  grief, but pain is pain. And yeah, I don't know what it
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  is, too. Going back to those questions,
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  Kiba. And and we can save them for
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  later. But you just made me think of,
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  you know, myself. Like whenever somebody tells me
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  they lost somebody, I can't help but want to ask, how did you
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  lose them? Yeah, and I feel like, does that
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  even matter? It doesn't, it's a, it's a
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  natural thing to be curious. I, you know, after doing this, I
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  never ever, ever ask. Ever, ever.
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  I feel like if I don't know, I don't need to ask, you know, And
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  if the person doesn't tell me, I'm certainly not going to ask
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  because it, it really honestly doesn't matter in the way that I
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  support them, you know, as, as a friend, you know, in, in my
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  personal life, it doesn't matter at all.
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  So I never asked just as a rule, because you don't know how
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  painful that is. I remember, and I hope I don't
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  have any high school classmates here, but I remember a, a high
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  school classmate of mine died. And you know, we're, we're,
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  we're not old. We're, we're on the borderline,
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  but you know, we're, we're, we're fairly young and, and most
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  of us are just not dying regularly.
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  And I remember someone posted posting it in our classroom
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  group and one person responded, well, what happened?
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  And the person said, I don't know, I haven't talked to her
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  parents. Well, can you ask them?
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  Because, you know, we just don't die at 40, whatever, whatever
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  age we were at the time. And she just kept going and
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  there were like 6 comments and I just could not handle it
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  anymore. And I said, you know,
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  respectfully, you know, I understand that you're
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  concerned, but clearly you guys haven't been in touch, you know,
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  since high school because you don't know.
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  And if you, if you don't know, then we don't need to know.
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  You know, let's really try to be more sensitive to her family
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  because we don't, we don't know and and it could be very
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  painful. And so just as a rule, I don't
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  ask ever, you know? Yeah.
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  You know, it's interesting that you explain that scenario
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  because something similar happened when when Mindy was
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  killed, people all of a sudden just started saying things on
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  social media. And and I understand people are
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  curious and they're thinking it from a perspective of like, this
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  is somebody I knew about. I want to know what's going on.
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  But you know, I had to go on social media and ask people
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  like, hey, please don't talk about this right now.
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  Imagine Mindy's mom. Imagine Mindy's four kids.
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  What are they feeling right now? What are they experiencing?
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  And you know, I, I kind of went on social media and tried to
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  kind of corral and obviously you can't, but just respectfully
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  asking people. And, you know, I had talked to
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  her daughter and, and her mother and they said, you know, that
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  the day of, can we just have just a little bit of space?
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  And I just remember going on social media and someone writing
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  back a really nasty comment. Well, you're not going to tell
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  me. Wow.
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  You know, And but then I also had to remind myself, Kiva, this
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  person is probably grieving too, you know, maybe.
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  Or, you know, people like things that are sensationalized and,
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  you know, back to us talking earlier about the difference
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  between the two. I didn't have to worry about
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  going on social media and people talking about my dad, You know,
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  Dad, that's not something you generally see when trauma isn't
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  involved, you know, and for someone and, you know, just
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  imagine in Mindy's case, and thank you again for sharing that
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  with your audience. You and I talked about this
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  before, which is what volunteer today.
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  But you know, in Mindy's case, you know, I'm sure there are
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  other things, you know, it's on the news.
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  And so her family and you friends having to worry about if
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  I'm watching TV, you know, or they're going to show a clip
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  saying, you know, this horrible thing happened.
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  All of those, those reminders it, it really affects us.
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  And it's very traumatic for most.
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  And unfortunately, we can't control what people say and what
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  what people do. And so honestly, even taking a
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  hiatus from social media or from media in general is is likely
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  not a bad idea when you're dealing with this.
• 25:08
  Yeah. And I, I just wish in general
• 25:15
  there was a little bit more kindness in the world.
• 25:18
  I. Agree.
• 25:19
  I wish there was in so many ways, so many for so many
• 25:22
  reasons, but for, for this reason.
• 25:25
  But yeah, I, I wish that people were kinder.
• 25:28
  The people thought before they spoke, before they typed, before
• 25:32
  they shared a post. I I wish people did.
• 25:35
  But that is not the world that we live in.
• 25:37
  And honestly, that actually adds to the trauma of dealing with
• 25:42
  this. What are things that someone who
• 25:47
  has experienced A traumatic loss, what are some things that
• 25:52
  may have affected them, like you said, that they may not even
• 25:59
  know that it's affecting them? I think most people don't even
• 26:05
  have not even heard of charming grief, you know, traumatic
• 26:08
  grief. Many people never even heard of
• 26:11
  that term. They think that, you know, it's
• 26:13
  a grief and it's going to be the same, you know, maybe a loss
• 26:18
  that I had before that was more natural.
• 26:21
  I should be healing the same way.
• 26:23
  And it's not, it's not the same. You know, I often tell people
• 26:29
  and we'll talk later about resources, but I often tell
• 26:32
  people, other professionals, that if you're going to refer
• 26:35
  someone for help in the aftermath of an event like this,
• 26:39
  please don't send them to the church basement grief group.
• 26:43
  They're going to fill out a place.
• 26:44
  It, it, it could actually do more harm than good.
• 26:50
  And if you can't find any, anyone that specializes in
• 26:54
  traumatic grief, I honestly would prefer you refer a person
• 26:58
  to a trauma therapist before a grief therapist because that is
• 27:05
  something that really needs to be addressed in grief.
• 27:08
  You know, we, we generally, most of us will naturally heal from
• 27:12
  that, as painful as, as it may be.
• 27:14
  But when you intersect that with trauma, someone needs to
• 27:19
  understand trauma that if they're going to need, if they
• 27:22
  need professional help. And I will say that many of us
• 27:27
  do bounce back naturally. Not everyone needs professional
• 27:30
  help. Not everyone does.
• 27:32
  However, if you do, you're going to need to get that trauma
• 27:37
  addressed that that's priority. And and bonus if the person has
• 27:42
  the background where they've done both.
• 27:45
  In 20 years of of working with challenging situations like this
• 27:52
  and and people really struggling, Kiva, is there
• 27:55
  anything that surprises you? What?
• 28:02
  Surprises me and what also motivates me to continue to do
• 28:06
  the, the work is the resilience of the people that I work with.
• 28:10
  You know, I, I, I've worked with so many amazing people who have
• 28:14
  experienced such horrific loss and the way that they navigate
• 28:21
  that the, the kindness that that they show to me, the worrying
• 28:26
  about if they're burdening me and I'm there to hold space for
• 28:31
  them. I, I, I'm always amazed at that,
• 28:35
  you know, someone who has lost so much that they still have a
• 28:41
  heart to love, care and protect other people.
• 28:45
  That's honestly what what keys in doing this work and I'm just
• 28:48
  honored to hold space or people in the aftermath of losses like
• 28:53
  that. And I'm wondering, Kiva, I am
• 29:00
  drawn to the topic of feeling regret because you are still
• 29:10
  alive when the person that you loved is gone.
• 29:16
  I know there's a word for it, but I survivor.
• 29:20
  Survivor failed. Thank you.
• 29:24
  Especially when I think about my years as a combat veteran and
• 29:30
  the deployments and how many incredible people were killed
• 29:35
  either in action or they were. They lost their lives when they
• 29:40
  came home because they couldn't handle the, the hidden wounds
• 29:45
  that nobody saw. And for me in particular, not
• 29:49
  having children and, you know, I ended up being divorced.
• 29:54
  So not having people that really needed me depended on me.
• 30:00
  How, how do you help someone through that when they're
• 30:04
  struggling and they they wish it was them?
• 30:12
  I. Think helping someone
• 30:15
  professionally or personally, what's so important is to what
• 30:20
  you know, reach. Ayana is on there.
• 30:23
  She's actually a colleague of mine.
• 30:24
  She talks about allowing them to share, allowing them to feel
• 30:28
  their feelings and putting our stuff aside.
• 30:32
  You know, you're going to be uncomfortable hearing this, but,
• 30:35
  but literally just allowing the person to share whatever they
• 30:38
  need to share, even if it is, I have a lot of guilt behind this.
• 30:43
  I'm not jumping in there and trying to fix that or tell them
• 30:46
  that they shouldn't feel that. You know, let me hear what you
• 30:50
  feel. Let, let, let me listen to you,
• 30:52
  you know, and many times, if you just are able to hold that space
• 30:57
  and not try to fix, not try to comfort, because again, there's
• 31:01
  nothing you can say in those moments where they're going to
• 31:03
  be like, JJ, thank you, I'm good, you fixed me.
• 31:07
  There's nothing that you can say but to listen and just quietly
• 31:12
  listen and sit there and really hear what they're saying.
• 31:15
  Many times they may start talking and tell you that, you
• 31:19
  know, I feel a lot of guilt, you know, and I can't believe that
• 31:23
  I'm staying here. And if they continue to talk,
• 31:25
  they, they, they will recognize that that's not really rational.
• 31:29
  But the key is how many safe places are there to talk without
• 31:33
  someone saying, well, what happened, Why did they do this,
• 31:36
  blah, blah, blah, all of these things, you know, So really just
• 31:39
  listening. That's, that's very much what I
• 31:41
  do. I, it is not, I don't go in
• 31:43
  swooping in, saving the day, telling people what to do,
• 31:46
  telling them how, you know, how to fix themselves.
• 31:49
  Much of what I do is listening. Wow.
• 31:52
  Yeah. And I think that's hard to keep
• 31:55
  up because I myself have experienced, you know, feeling
• 31:59
  survivor's guilt and then feeling like just needing to to
• 32:07
  grieve the fact that I am still here and that we lost such an
• 32:11
  amazing person. And and I know they're always
• 32:14
  well-intentioned, but, you know, I can't tell many times that
• 32:17
  I've been told you shouldn't think that way.
• 32:21
  You're still here. So is that?
• 32:23
  Helpful to you? No, being not helpful at all,
• 32:28
  it's not. Helpful at all And in I don't
• 32:32
  know, I think a lot of us have this need to try and fix others.
• 32:38
  They we just want and and again, sometimes it's out of a place of
• 32:42
  love. Like we want so bad to be there
• 32:44
  for someone that is hurting that we're like, OK, what can I say
• 32:49
  to motivate them or to make them not sad?
• 32:54
  When again, can you just repeat for everyone one more time?
• 32:58
  What's the best thing that we can do?
• 33:02
  I, I will and I love what what you just said, because I do
• 33:06
  believe most people have really good intentions.
• 33:09
  However, I think that that when we say things, it's coming from
• 33:15
  our discomfort. You know, we want them to feel
• 33:18
  better, but we're also uncomfortable, you know, so if,
• 33:21
  if you hurry up, stop crying here, here's the tissue, hurry,
• 33:24
  hurry, stop crying. You know, because that's making
• 33:26
  me uncomfortable that that's what I think really is the issue
• 33:30
  and, and, and holding space for people who are hurting, whether
• 33:34
  professionally or personally, it's going to be uncomfortable
• 33:39
  and it is OK to sit with that discomfort.
• 33:42
  You know, it's OK to sit with that discomfort.
• 33:44
  And that's going to be probably the best way you can help
• 33:47
  someone else that's hurting is to allow yourself to be
• 33:51
  uncomfortable while they're talking, while they're
• 33:54
  processing, while they're sharing, because they haven't
• 33:58
  had a place to do that. And and they don't need you to
• 34:01
  tell them things that they already know, you know, And that
• 34:03
  kind of brings me to the things that we can do that are
• 34:06
  unhelpful. Want to go?
• 34:08
  Should we go there now please Yes.
• 34:10
  So. What you know, I've asked in
• 34:13
  groups, what is the one thing that you've heard that you wish
• 34:16
  you would never hear again? And I could, but the top five
• 34:21
  would be he or she is in a better place.
• 34:24
  I doesn't put more on you than you can bear.
• 34:29
  What else? I mean, I could go on and on.
• 34:31
  I'm sure they are, you know, your audience is, is very
• 34:34
  active. So I'm sure there are others in
• 34:37
  the chat. And, and I would invite people
• 34:40
  to go ahead and share those things that people have said,
• 34:43
  well-intentioned that are not helpful.
• 34:45
  I have another good, good friend of mine.
• 34:48
  Actually, her husband was a good friend of mine and, and she is a
• 34:50
  friend because she's his wife. And, and he died very suddenly,
• 34:56
  not suddenly, I would say, but it, it all happened very quickly
• 34:59
  and, and he was very young and, and left a young family behind.
• 35:04
  And I remember her sending me a picture of this huge stack of
• 35:07
  books that was like up to her waist.
• 35:10
  And so many people had given her books, you know, about her laws
• 35:13
  and would follow up in a few days and ask if she had read it
• 35:18
  yet. And I told her, I said, ask them
• 35:21
  how you're going to read these books with a 7 year old and twin
• 35:24
  4 year old and you're a single parent now and you lost your
• 35:26
  husband. Like I know their intentions
• 35:29
  were were good and it's OK to give someone a gift like that,
• 35:32
  but please don't follow up and ask them have they read it or
• 35:36
  and things like that, that it's not helpful.
• 35:39
  And even though those of us that, that have faith, you know,
• 35:42
  my faith is incredibly important to me.
• 35:45
  Scriptures and things like that, these people know those things,
• 35:51
  and I know your intentions are well, but unless they ask you
• 35:55
  come and counsel them to come and pray with them, those things
• 36:00
  aren't very helpful either. In those moments, we're just
• 36:03
  not, you know, nothing's going to make that pain go away in
• 36:08
  that moment. If they're seeking their faith,
• 36:11
  trust me, they're doing that already, you know, And if they
• 36:14
  need you to come in and remind them of certain specifics,
• 36:17
  they'll ask. You know, and I, and I really
• 36:22
  don't want to overstep. I'm not a clergy member.
• 36:26
  I'm speaking from my experience, you know, serving, serving
• 36:29
  people like this. And what I will tell you is that
• 36:33
  anytime you're dealing with dealing with trauma in any way,
• 36:35
  and this is no different, there's a spiritual aspect.
• 36:39
  And so for some people, their faith is stronger.
• 36:42
  Some people may lose it for a while.
• 36:45
  Some people may be questioning and questioning their faith and
• 36:49
  we need to be sensitive to that. It doesn't make them any less of
• 36:55
  any less religious in whatever faith they ascribe to.
• 36:59
  Oh, someone said it's all that's, that's my stepdaughter.
• 37:02
  Actually, it's all a part of God's plan.
• 37:04
  That's not helpful. Thank you, baby.
• 37:06
  You learned well. It's all a part of God's plan.
• 37:09
  That's, that's not helpful in the moment.
• 37:13
  It's not helpful when you lose your 4 year old for someone to
• 37:16
  say that's God's plan. I even, I work with a young
• 37:20
  woman, I'll change a few things up for her privacy.
• 37:22
  Very young, very young. She was under 25.
• 37:26
  Her child had been murdered by her husband.
• 37:30
  And I kid you not, one of the things she told me people would
• 37:33
  say to her often, well, you're young, you can have more
• 37:36
  children. And it gives her a children this
• 37:40
  day. This has to be 15 years ago.
• 37:42
  And I just remember her so well because she was so broken.
• 37:46
  And that's what people would. They dismissed her loss, not
• 37:50
  only her loss of her child, but at the hands of her husband.
• 37:56
  And she's still having to testify in court and people are
• 37:59
  telling her, you're young, you can have more kids.
• 38:01
  How dismissive is that of her loss?
• 38:07
  And she's young. She knows she can have more
• 38:09
  kids. This is not helpful.
• 38:11
  It's not that. Just hurts.
• 38:19
  It does. And that was so long ago.
• 38:22
  And when I tell you I see her face and I can to this day I
• 38:27
  can, I feel that her pain. And I'm so sure she went on to
• 38:30
  get married and have children. At least I hope so.
• 38:33
  I hope she went on to help a full life and that she is able
• 38:37
  to still enjoy a full life. And I don't even want to say, I
• 38:45
  don't know how I want to say this, but I hope she's she was
• 38:49
  able to reconcile her grief and figure out a way to still live,
• 38:54
  you know, but to dismiss her grief like that.
• 38:57
  And many people told her that. And I think a lot of it had to
• 39:00
  do with the fact that she was young.
• 39:02
  You know, she was so young. Like, this is not a real
• 39:04
  problem. You're only 27 years old.
• 39:07
  And it was, you know, and it's on the news every time you turn
• 39:09
  around. You know, she can't even watch
• 39:10
  TV because she may be watching something.
• 39:13
  And the commercial will come out tonight at 10.
• 39:15
  We're following the case of blah, blah, blah.
• 39:17
  You know, think about that. Kiva, I'm curious about a book
• 39:25
  that I'm sure you've probably read called, I think it's called
• 39:29
  The Body Keeps the Score. I'd love if you could talk a
• 39:34
  little bit about what does that mean?
• 39:36
  Like when you say that people hold trauma in their bodies,
• 39:40
  like what does that mean? Thank you for saying that.
• 39:44
  I want to say one thing I like to say about the body keeps the
• 39:47
  keeps the score. It's an excellent book.
• 39:49
  However, it is not a light read. It is not a light read.
• 39:53
  This is not something you just go pick up.
• 39:55
  Oh, they talked about that on podcast.
• 39:56
  Let me read this right now because I'm greeted be mindful.
• 40:00
  It's a heavy book and and it's it's written for everyone, but
• 40:04
  more heavily for mental health professionals.
• 40:07
  So so be mindful of that if you read the book.
• 40:09
  But Bessel Vanderkope wrote the book and when he talks about the
• 40:14
  body keeps the score in in doing any trauma work.
• 40:18
  You can't. You can't do trauma work without
• 40:22
  including the body because. Trauma affects us emotionally
• 40:27
  and physically. Have you ever and anyone could
• 40:30
  probably relate to this. You know, you, you may have a
• 40:33
  period where you're feeling sad, you're just kind of down, you're
• 40:37
  noticing all of these things are happening and you have no real
• 40:41
  explanation for why it's happening.
• 40:44
  However you go and you look later and you're like, oh, this
• 40:48
  is the anniversary of whatever. Even me, my dad died in August.
• 40:53
  And I remember I was telling my partner I I'm just feeling
• 40:57
  really down. I don't know why, you know, I
• 41:00
  wouldn't say I'm depressed, but I'm just in a funk.
• 41:03
  And I looked at the calendar like, oh, it's, it's a week
• 41:06
  before the anniversary of dad's death.
• 41:09
  And your body remembers trauma. If your mind doesn't, your body
• 41:14
  does. And it's really important that
• 41:16
  you allow yourself the grace to take care of yourself, to rest,
• 41:23
  to talk to someone. If you need to talk to someone,
• 41:25
  whether that be a friend or even a mental health professional,
• 41:29
  it's incredibly important because your body will remember
• 41:32
  even when your when your mind does.
• 41:35
  And so yeah, the body keeps its score.
• 41:36
  It's about how the body responds to trauma.
• 41:39
  And so if you are experiencing trauma of any type, any type of
• 41:44
  trauma, or you have the diagnosis of PTSD, when you're
• 41:48
  working with a trauma therapist, they're going to include some
• 41:52
  type of body work, whether that be trauma informed, yoga, EMDR,
• 41:59
  which is I'll, I'll say what it means.
• 42:00
  It's a mouthful, but everyone says EMDR, but it's eye
• 42:03
  movement, desensitization and reprocessing, brain spotting,
• 42:08
  all of these things that integrate the body inhaling.
• 42:13
  We've found over the years that in order to truly heal from
• 42:17
  trauma, not just desensitize it, but to heal from trauma, you
• 42:21
  have to incorporate some sort of body work.
• 42:24
  It's incredibly important. And the good news is you can
• 42:28
  help from trauma. You can meet criteria for PTSD
• 42:32
  and after treatment no longer meet the criteria for PTSD.
• 42:37
  And, and there's a big myth that I have to deal with this for the
• 42:40
  rest of my life. You do not.
• 42:42
  There is healing. There is healing Kiva.
• 42:46
  I, I appreciate you bringing that up because that's actually
• 42:49
  a really important question that I have for you.
• 42:53
  If someone is struggling with the loss of a loved one or
• 42:58
  they're experiencing A traumatic loss in general, how do they
• 43:04
  find the right person to talk to?
• 43:07
  How do they know, you know, if it's going to be a good fit?
• 43:12
  You know, I don't mind sharing my personal life because if it
• 43:14
  can help somebody else, then, hey, it was, it was for a
• 43:17
  reason. But I mean, I remember when I
• 43:20
  was looking for a therapist, I think I went through 4 within a
• 43:23
  year because first of all, I felt, yeah, well, Nah, no good
• 43:29
  for. You for not staying if it wasn't
• 43:32
  serving, you know, Took me a minute.
• 43:35
  Keepa because I would find myself like one of the
• 43:39
  therapists I had, I would start telling my story and she'd
• 43:43
  interrupt me and start saying how she had a similar experience
• 43:48
  and and I'm the type of I can't be a people pleaser.
• 43:52
  And so, you know, I'm like, usually I just want to be
• 43:56
  respectful and not rude. And, but it got so challenging
• 44:00
  because I'm talking about some very heavy stuff.
• 44:02
  And I finally was like, excuse me, but I think this is my time
• 44:06
  and you may be trying to help me, but it doesn't help me to
• 44:10
  hear your story. I would like to speak.
• 44:13
  And so that's actually what started my journey in Kiva where
• 44:16
  I decided, no, I'm worth this. Good for you.
• 44:19
  But good for you. But so it is and.
• 44:22
  And I always try and tell people too, anytime I talk to a friend
• 44:26
  or, or somebody that's saying like, Hey, I, I think it's time
• 44:29
  to go talk to somebody, I always let them know you don't have to
• 44:33
  go with the first person you talk to.
• 44:36
  And so, yeah, I'd really love Kiva.
• 44:39
  If you have advice that you would, you know your best friend
• 44:42
  comes to you and says Hey, I've never talked to anyone before
• 44:45
  but I I think I should like what is the the advice you would give
• 44:50
  someone on how do you go through the process of finding if
• 44:55
  they're a right fit for you? Yeah, I'm so glad you're
• 44:59
  bringing this up because you know, you do have a right to
• 45:02
  find the person that you're you're comfortable with.
• 45:05
  I would say for the purposes of what we're talking about today,
• 45:08
  start with the trauma therapist. Literally look for someone that
• 45:12
  is a trauma therapist or a trauma focused therapist.
• 45:17
  You see the term trauma informed a lot and that could be helpful
• 45:22
  as well. However, when we say trauma
• 45:24
  informed, that's more about not doing any other damage.
• 45:27
  You want someone that is comfortable treating trauma.
• 45:30
  So generally they're going to list themselves as a trauma
• 45:33
  therapist. And so as it relates to
• 45:35
  traumatic grief, I would say start there and they're going to
• 45:38
  point you in the right direction.
• 45:40
  The grief part, I'm not minimizing it, but that can be
• 45:43
  handled. Most, most mental health
• 45:44
  professionals can handle that, but the trauma that that's an
• 45:47
  area of specialization and they need to be trained and evidence,
• 45:51
  evidence based modalities to even provide treatment for that.
• 45:56
  But the other thing I want to say as far as finding a
• 45:57
  therapist in general, most therapists will have on their
• 46:01
  website that they have a, you know, free 15 minute
• 46:05
  consultation. Use that consultation to talk to
• 46:07
  them and find out if they're a good fit for you and trust your
• 46:11
  vibe. If if the vibe is off, I don't
• 46:13
  care how credentialed they are, they may not be the best fit for
• 46:16
  you. I'm not the best fit for
• 46:18
  everyone. And then do be mindful of things
• 46:21
  like age, race, sexual orientation, gender, ability.
• 46:26
  All of those things are important, you know, And so you
• 46:29
  find someone who you are comfortable with.
• 46:32
  And as those things intersect, you know, if I'm a trans jet
• 46:37
  black woman, I need to feel safe in my therapeutic environment.
• 46:43
  And so there are websites that allow you to pick people based
• 46:49
  on specializationimtrying0inclusivetherapist.com,
• 46:52
  inclusivetherapist.com. JJ I'm assuming we can, we can
• 46:57
  put some things in the chat or at the end post some things for
• 47:02
  for your audience, but that is 1 where you can actually check
• 47:06
  off. I want one's African American.
• 47:07
  I want them to be female. I want them to be this because I
• 47:10
  feel like that person may be able to relate more to me.
• 47:13
  It is OK to have those requirements.
• 47:16
  You know, many people seek me out because of my brown skin and
• 47:21
  they don't want to explain certain things.
• 47:24
  There are certain things that I understand just by virtue of
• 47:27
  having walked, you know, this this world as an African
• 47:30
  American woman. And so it is OK to find your
• 47:33
  people you feel like will get you.
• 47:36
  And if it's not a good fit, it's not a good fit.
• 47:38
  Move on. Find someone else that is OK.
• 47:41
  We, we don't take that personally.
• 47:43
  You know, we recognize it's not a good fit.
• 47:45
  And honestly, a really good therapist will notice that it's
• 47:48
  not that it's not a good fit and we'll talk to you about that.
• 47:51
  You know, I've had people where I've said, you know, we've seen
• 47:55
  each other three or four Times Now and I want to talk about
• 47:58
  something because I feel like we're not really connecting.
• 48:01
  Tell me what's going on on your end, you know, what do you feel?
• 48:04
  You know, could I provide other resources for you that that's
• 48:08
  what a really good therapist is going to be.
• 48:10
  They're not going to be offended by that.
• 48:13
  So how do you, I guess, how do you how do you balance?
• 48:22
  I am as a potential client. I'm sitting in front of a new
• 48:26
  person. I don't know you.
• 48:28
  I'm dealing with my own insecurities of opening up to
• 48:32
  you. How do you balance your own
• 48:35
  internal, you know, nervousness and just this struggle
• 48:42
  emotionally that you face sitting against a new person?
• 48:45
  How do you balance that with also trying to read if the other
• 48:50
  person aligns with you? What do you think it some good
• 48:53
  indicators like you talked about a vibe.
• 48:56
  Talk a little bit more about that please.
• 49:01
  I think that for one, I want to empower everyone to know that if
• 49:06
  you're seeking a therapist, this is you and this is your
• 49:11
  livelihood. And I don't care what their
• 49:13
  credentials are, how long their resume is, how famous they are,
• 49:18
  You know, any of those things. Those things don't matter.
• 49:20
  You can ask whatever you want. You know, you can ask them how
• 49:23
  long they've been trained. You know, they may decline to
• 49:26
  answer this question, but you may ask, have you ever
• 49:29
  experienced this? You know, I'm, I'm coming to you
• 49:31
  because my son died by suicide. Have you ever experienced a loss
• 49:35
  by suicide? It's OK to ask that.
• 49:37
  You know, again, they may not choose to disclose anything
• 49:39
  personal, but whatever you think you need to know, it's OK to
• 49:43
  ask. I, I would recommend, you know,
• 49:46
  thinking about it ahead of time, OK, I want to go to therapy.
• 49:49
  What things are important to me? You know, I'm talking about
• 49:52
  something that's really personal.
• 49:54
  I feel like a woman would be more sensitive.
• 49:56
  I have a lot of men that intentionally seek a woman, you
• 50:00
  know, for whatever reason, you know, because they're talking
• 50:03
  about trauma, particularly men who deal with sexual trauma,
• 50:06
  Some of many of them are more comfortable talking to women
• 50:09
  than men, you know, and that happens, that happens quite
• 50:13
  often. And so think about who you're
• 50:15
  going to be most comfortable talking to.
• 50:17
  Is their gender going to be important?
• 50:19
  Is their race going to be important?
• 50:20
  So I would think about those things ahead of time and then
• 50:22
  think about what do I need to know about this person and, and
• 50:25
  ask those questions, Use those 15 minutes to ask questions.
• 50:29
  One question I would absolutely say that you need to ask is how
• 50:33
  many people have you worked with, you know, that that are
• 50:37
  dealing with what I'm coming to you with.
• 50:39
  You know, how much experience have you had dealing with
• 50:42
  someone who's had a loss like mine?
• 50:44
  That's OK to ask those things. And again, bottom line, I'm real
• 50:48
  big on trust your gut. Your gut is telling you this
• 50:51
  person is not my people. Then thank them.
• 50:55
  You find somebody else, you know, your gut tells you
• 50:57
  everything you need to know. You don't have to overthink.
• 51:00
  If you don't feel comfortable, you don't feel comfortable, You
• 51:02
  know, thank you for. So, so much for going into that
• 51:06
  detail. I'm, you know, not asking, I
• 51:09
  mean, I, I am asking for our listeners, but I'm also asking
• 51:13
  for myself, you know, because that's something I just never
• 51:18
  thought about. I just in my mind, I was like,
• 51:20
  well, I just need help. So, you know, OK, this is who's
• 51:25
  in front of me. And, and, and I, I did, I
• 51:29
  suffered for a while Kiva, because half the time I was
• 51:34
  like, you know, or, or for example, like I had one
• 51:38
  therapist, he was a man. And you know, I was talking
• 51:42
  about, you know, losing, I lost the baby and the divorce.
• 51:47
  And even though I didn't really think that divorce impacted me,
• 51:51
  but, you know, just in general, like I had multiple.
• 51:54
  Yeah. Yes, I had.
• 51:56
  I retired. I had lost a baby about eight
• 52:02
  months prior, but it was still hard for me.
• 52:06
  I divorced and I moved to Texas and I started the business all
• 52:10
  at once. Even good.
• 52:12
  Stress, stress, you know, maybe moving might have been a good
• 52:16
  thing for you. It's still very stressful and it
• 52:18
  impacts on. Yeah, yeah.
• 52:21
  So I think I was. Talking about those things.
• 52:23
  And then the therapist was like, well, have you tried dating?
• 52:27
  And, you know, again, like, I'm, I'm kind of a, at least I was at
• 52:35
  the time, kind of a people pleaser and, you know, like some
• 52:38
  like entertaining his. What?
• 52:40
  You're a therapist. Maybe I should think about
• 52:42
  dating. And I just remember it kind of
• 52:44
  turned into like, OK, well, I want you to, I want you to this
• 52:48
  week. I want you to go get on a dating
• 52:50
  app and just talk to three people.
• 52:52
  Oh my gosh. Wow.
• 52:53
  And it. Just didn't.
• 52:57
  I did not enjoy that, you know, So I guess how do you know Kiba
• 53:02
  as a client? Like, because part of me is
• 53:06
  feeling very insecure like, OK, well you're an expert, so I
• 53:11
  guess I should go with what you're saying.
• 53:13
  Like I'm. So glad you said that.
• 53:15
  How do you balance? That OK, I I.
• 53:18
  Know I have some people that are supporting me in the chat,
• 53:21
  Someone that's here with me. I want you to put this in the
• 53:23
  chat for me. You are the expert on your life.
• 53:27
  You are the expert on your life. I tried to tell my clients that,
• 53:33
  and yes, Liz, LCSW's are the best social workers on the best.
• 53:38
  But I do try to tell my clients that when I first meet them that
• 53:42
  yes, I may be an expert in my area.
• 53:44
  I may be well trained in my area, but you're the expert on
• 53:47
  you and this is a collaborative relationship.
• 53:50
  I'm not here to save you and tell you what to do.
• 53:54
  We are, we're here to work together.
• 53:56
  I have resources, I have tools, and I'm here to help you, to
• 53:59
  empower you. But you know you and we're going
• 54:03
  to go at whatever pace you need to go at.
• 54:05
  So, so knowing that, so remembering that you're the
• 54:08
  expert on you, no one else is, no one else is.
• 54:11
  And so you don't need to go down a path that you're not
• 54:13
  comfortable with. And it is OK to tell your
• 54:14
  therapist, you know, no, that doesn't really feel right for
• 54:16
  me. I don't think dating is what I
• 54:18
  want to do right now. That is OK.
• 54:19
  And they should pivot right with you.
• 54:21
  But it's it's a collaborative relationship and no one is an
• 54:24
  expert, as much of an expert on you as you are.
• 54:27
  And no expert can tell you what you need to do.
• 54:34
  Absolutely. Yeah.
• 54:36
  And here we go. Just a a friendly reminder
• 54:40
  everyone, you are the expert. Thank you, Miss.
• 54:44
  Paula. Yes, that's so good.
• 54:48
  Yeah. And I think that even goes back
• 54:50
  to what you were saying about, you know, trusting your
• 54:54
  instinct, trusting, you know, your gut.
• 54:57
  And how many of us are we struggle with that?
• 55:02
  We do, but really I do too. I do too.
• 55:05
  I'm, you know, as a therapist. I see therapist, you know, and I
• 55:08
  have an amazing therapist now, but before finding her, I
• 55:12
  remember seeing therapists and they would tell me things like,
• 55:14
  well, you already know this. You can find this.
• 55:16
  You can do this because you're there.
• 55:17
  No, I'm here as a client. Don't give me the handout, give
• 55:20
  it to me. Don't make me go find my own,
• 55:22
  you know, But I those, those are the people that I knew were not
• 55:26
  a good fit for me. You know, I needed the person to
• 55:29
  see me and not see me as a colleague because in this
• 55:32
  setting, I'm not, you know, unfortunately I had to fill out
• 55:35
  paperwork and you, I had to tell you what I do for a living.
• 55:38
  But honestly, if it were up to me, I wouldn't, you know what I
• 55:40
  mean? And so even me as a
• 55:42
  professional, I had to go through a few before I found the
• 55:46
  person who was the right fit for me.
• 55:47
  And she's not even local. You know, I see her virtually
• 55:49
  and she's in Austin. And that was another factor for
• 55:52
  me. You know, I didn't want to be
• 55:53
  running too much networking groups either.
• 55:56
  And so, you know, everyone has different needs as far as
• 56:00
  finding someone. And so I just want to empower
• 56:02
  you to know you're the expert on you pressure gut and ask the
• 56:06
  question and and move on. You know, I would say, I would
• 56:09
  say definitely give it more than one session.
• 56:11
  But after two or three, you know, you know, if it's not a
• 56:14
  good fit or not and it's OK. It really is.
• 56:19
  Wow, Kiva. This has been an amazing
• 56:21
  discussion. And so as we wrap up, you know,
• 56:25
  we do talk a lot about legacy on this show.
• 56:29
  The whole point is, you know, to help people understand that
• 56:33
  legacy is not some big, huge thing with your name on a
• 56:36
  library or, you know, the whole world knows your name.
• 56:39
  It's it's how you impact the people around you that
• 56:43
  difference are you making in the world.
• 56:45
  So I'd love to know what does legacy mean to you, Kiva?
• 56:51
  It's so funny that you asked that because I, I literally just
• 56:54
  celebrated a birthday Saturday with my friends and a family and
• 56:59
  I did a theme party and it was called my life, my love, my
• 57:02
  legacy. And when I spoke to all of the
• 57:07
  wonderful people who, who came to show me so much love, I said
• 57:11
  at the end that I want my legacy not to, I don't want people to
• 57:15
  Remember Me or what I've accomplished or, or all of these
• 57:19
  things. I want people to remember how I
• 57:20
  made them feel. And I, I hope that when, when I
• 57:25
  leave people that they feel heard, that they feel, you know,
• 57:30
  for those that are in my, my inner circle, that they feel
• 57:32
  loved, that they feel supported. You know, how you make people
• 57:35
  feel is so much more important than those other things, those
• 57:41
  other superficial things, how much education you have, how
• 57:43
  many awards you've won, how much this, how much money you've
• 57:46
  made. Thank you.
• 57:48
  Those things are not as important as how you've made
• 57:50
  people feel. And for me, you know, just
• 57:53
  holding space for people, even being able to be in this chat,
• 57:56
  you know, in honor of Mindy and, and, and the the young man who
• 58:01
  who died as well in that community, dealing with such
• 58:05
  horrific loss and trying to understand their feelings around
• 58:09
  this, you know, anger and sadness and all of these things.
• 58:13
  Being able to just hold space or to encourage.
• 58:16
  That's what's important. And that's what I want my legacy
• 58:18
  to be. That's beautiful, Kiva.
• 58:21
  Thanks. Thank you for letting me share
• 58:23
  that I can't. Thank you enough for joining us
• 58:25
  today. This has been a a conversation I
• 58:29
  have been looking forward to for a long time because I think we
• 58:33
  need to talk about these things. And if you're not someone who
• 58:39
  needed it now, perhaps you may think need it later, or you may
• 58:46
  know someone that will need it now or later.
• 58:50
  And that's just my only hope. And I'm going to do something a
• 58:55
  little a little different here just because I am from for me,
• 59:01
  my faith is everything. And if it's all right with you,
• 59:03
  I'm just going to say a quick prayer.
• 59:06
  I just want to God, thank you for this time together.
• 59:09
  And I just pray for anybody that's listening right now, God,
• 59:12
  that you would just heal them, help them, protect them, support
• 59:17
  them and whatever they need. God, and just that these words
• 59:22
  and this conversation will be a blessing to someone who needs
• 59:24
  it. In the name of Jesus, I pray,
• 59:26
  Amen. Thank you, Kiva I.
• 59:29
  Appreciate that. So much appreciate your time,
• 59:32
  your experience. And you know I can't and I
• 59:37
  shouldn't speak on behalf of all the people you've helped, but I
• 59:40
  just know there are so many. So thank you so much for all
• 59:44
  that you do for this world to make it a better place.
• 59:47
  Thank you for. Hosting.
• 59:49
  And for inviting me and for your audience, I mean, the chat was
• 59:52
  going. I can't wait to go back and, and
• 59:55
  reply to I have a lot of, I have a lot of amazing people that
• 59:59
  support me, but I also saw a lot of people that I, that I don't
• 1:00:01
  know. And so I want to thank them for
• 1:00:03
  engaging. And, and I hope that what we
• 1:00:05
  said tonight was helpful. And I'll, I'll drop my website
• 1:00:10
  in the chat if someone else wants to.
• 1:00:12
  Is my name www.www.kibaharper.com?
• 1:00:17
  Their resources on my page and and thank you again.
• 1:00:21
  That's my sister. That's my big sister.
• 1:00:25
  I'm going to get this up here. Real quick because I want to
• 1:00:28
  make sure that people can reach you.
• 1:00:31
  So www.kivaharper.com. And you can also follow me on
• 1:00:37
  social media. My name is not uncommon.
• 1:00:39
  I mean, my name is not common. So Kiva Harper, I'm on LinkedIn,
• 1:00:43
  it's my greatest following. I'm also on Facebook, Instagram,
• 1:00:46
  I'm on TikTok don't post much there, but I do have some great
• 1:00:48
  stuff out there actually on on TikTok.
• 1:00:50
  So find me on social media, follow me.
• 1:00:52
  I do post content like this often.
• 1:00:56
  You know I don't I don't post a lot of personal so follow me.
• 1:00:59
  There's no walls. You don't have to get approved
• 1:01:01
  or anything like that. Feel free to follow me for
• 1:01:03
  resources and content, things like that.
• 1:01:06
  Thank you. Awesome and.
• 1:01:08
  What a great research that you are, Kiba I.
• 1:01:11
  Appreciate you, JJ All right. Thank you all.
• 1:01:13
  I hope you you have a great night and lean into your legacy
• 1:01:18
  because you're here for a reason.
• 1:01:20
  You matter and we need you. Thanks for watching and
• 1:01:26
  listening to military broadcast radio on Roku TV.
• 1:01:30
  If you missed today's episode, the podcast will be available on
• 1:01:32
  and all major platforms shortly after we go off the air.
• 1:01:35
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• 1:01:37
  Giving veterans a voice. This is military broadcast
• 1:01:40
  radio.