Latest / Wired To Hunt Podcast / Ep. 1033: The Case for a One Buck Rule with Brent Rudolph

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Ep. 1033: The Case for a One Buck Rule with Brent Rudolph · Wired To Hunt Podcast

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: the white Tail Woods presented by first Light, creating proven
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: versatile hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Light Go farther, stay longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon,
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Wired to Hunt podcast. This week in the show, we
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: are discussing the case for a one buck limit and
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: we're chatting about this with Brent Rudolph, the deer, elk
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: and moose specialist with the Michigan Department of Natural Resources.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: Here all right, welcome back to the Wired to Hunt podcast,
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: brought to you by Moultrie. Today we're talking deer regulations.
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: I know that sounds really exciting, but stick with me
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: here for a second. We're talking about why a Department
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: of Natural Resources might want to shift their state to
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: the one buck rule. That means you get one buck tag.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: That's how it is done in Indiana. That's how it
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: is in Kentucky, That's how it is in Ohio, and
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: I think some other states too, and that's where it
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: might be headed in my home state of Michigan. That
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: has been proposed by our Department of Natural Resources, and
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: in just a matter of days there will be a
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: vote that will determine whether that's going to be the
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: law of the land for the twenty twenty seven season
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: and moving forward. So what does that mean? That's what
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: I want to discuss today. I want to talk broadly
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: with our guest Brent about the idea of a one
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: buck rule and what that can achieve, what that's done
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: in other states, kind of talking kind of generally, what's
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: the case for a one buck limit, How might that
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: lead to changes in deer populations and age structure and
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: sex composition, all those different things. How can this lead
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: to us being able to reach our management goals, Questions
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: around how that might impact hunting experience and hunter opportunity,
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: and then of course all the questions around concerns about it.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: You know, this has been the proposal that a lot
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: of people are excited about. Many people think this might
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: lead to an older age class of bucks in the
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: state of Michigan, It might lead to more quote unquote
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: big bucks in the state of Michigan. There are hopes
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: that this will lead to a higher antlust harvest here
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: in Michigan, all things that a lot of people want.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: But on the flip side, there's lots of concerns too.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: Some people I've talked to said this will lead to
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: more people hunting less, or that this could lead to
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  Speaker 2: declines and license sales and funding for our Department of
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: Natural Resources. All of those are good and valid questions
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: that I want to cover today. So whether you live
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: in the state of Michigan or somewhere else, today's conversation
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: will be relevant to you as we explore this possible
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: regulation in Michigan that has worked in some places seemingly,
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: maybe it's going to work here in Michigan, and maybe
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: someday it's going to be tried somewhere else too. Rudolph
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: is the guy to talk to because he is one
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: of the architects behind this proposal in Michigan. He is
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: our dear specialist in the state of Michigan. He's had
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: a long history and career in wildlife biology, in wildlife management.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: So I'm excited to chat with Brent, to dive deep
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: into this issue and to get answers to the many
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: questions that I know that hunters in Michigan have right now,
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: and that I think folks have all across the country.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: Is this set of ideas is continuing to roll out
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: across other states as well, So that's the game plan
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: for the show today. One quick other update, the Save
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: Tuckertown campaign is still going on. The quick cliff notes
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: on that is that there are four thousand acres of
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: land in North Carolina that have historically been open to
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: the public. They are now being sold and we are
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: trying to help save them and keep them public in perpetuity.
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: If you go to Savetuckertown dot org you can learn
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: more about this. But what we're doing until May fourteenth
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: is chipping in one hundred thousand dollars as well as
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: Onyx is to put up two hundred thousand dollars in
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: matching funds, So anything you donate we will match up
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: to that two hundred thousand dollars limit. We're doing that
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: until May fourteenth. We're over one hundred and seven thousand
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: dollars raised already. It's been incredible participation. We would love
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: to see that lead to a hitting our two hundred
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: thousand dollars goal here in the next week and a
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: half or so, so heading over to Save Tuckertown dot org.
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  Speaker 2: Thanks in advance for doing that. And now, without any
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: further ado, let's dive into the case for a one
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  Speaker 2: buck limit with Brent Rudolph. All right, joining me now
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: on the line is Brent Rudolph. Welcome to the show, Brent,
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  Speaker 2: hey Mark, thanks for having me. Yeah, thank you for
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: making time to do this. I gotta believe you're pretty
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: busy right now with everything going on. Am I right
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: to assume that it's?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean this is always a bit is the
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: time of year, and we have certainly had entertained discussion
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: around a wider variety of potential REGs changes this year
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: than we have in many previous years. So that's definitely
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: got a lot of people interested and engaged and asking
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: questions and opinions and all that good stuff.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So, like you mentioned, you guys have been up
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: to a whole lot, and there's a whole lot I
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: want to cover in this chat. There's a lot of
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: kind of nitty gritty details of deer management and regulatory
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: ideas that I want to cover with you. But I
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: want to start in maybe an unexpected place, which is
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: why are you doing this? With all of the pressures
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: and the scrutiny and sometimes the tendency that hunters and
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: anglers sometimes have of pointing the finger at the DNR
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: and kind of blaming you guys for all of our
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: problems and the challenges the Department of Natural Resources or
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: the Fish and Wildlife, whatever the name is in your
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: given state. It's always easy to point a finger there
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  Speaker 2: and say, Ah, these guys, they're screwing things up. It
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: seems like you have a somewhat thankless job, Brent. Why
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: do you get up in the morning and do this work? Personally?
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's funny when you asked why are you doing this?
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: There's a lot of different ways to approach that question,
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: But to that point, why am I doing?
• 6:26
  Speaker 4: Broadly? You know what I do?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I I did not grow up in
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: a hunting family myself. I grew up in an outdoors
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: family and a suburban Cleveland, Ohio.
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: Spent a lot of time outdoors, but didn't have anybody
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: that got me involved in hunting. When I was a kid, I.
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: Had an interest in wildlife, and that's the course I
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: chose to take, probably even once I out fully understanding
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: what that was. You know, when I started my academic
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: path in college and other things, and it wasn't until
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: I got into more while I focused studies that I
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: got involved in in hunting, and so for me, you know,
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: that's not unlike the agencies right is now. I am
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: a pretty passionate, devoted hunter, especially I bird dogs. So
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: I spent a lot of time, especially in Grause and
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: woodcock country here in Michigan, but also elsewhere.
• 7:21
  Speaker 4: I actually left that.
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  Speaker 3: Worked for the department for a number of years, but
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: left for a while work for nonprofits, both with Rough
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: Grouse Society and with Pheasants forever. So I had a
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: chance to do a little bit more of the upland
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: work and then returned to the deer work here in
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: the state of Michigan where I still live. But the
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: bottom line is agencies responsibility is first to the wildlife
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: and the natural resources, and second to ensuring the kind
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: of recreational use and broader even just appreciation of those resources.
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: And so it can be a challenge more specifically why
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: are we doing this? Like why have we propose some
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: regulations that we have recently. We always have to strike
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: that balance between trying to manage resources for the benefit
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: of just the long term sustainability of wildlife and habitats,
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: but also recognizing that hunters are a really important part
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  Speaker 3: of the equation whether you're looking at it, because the
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: harvest that they take has an effect on the population
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  Speaker 3: or the funds that they provide in their purchases and
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  Speaker 3: their recreational habits are a tremendous boost to the resources
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: of the state in one way or another. So we
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  Speaker 3: always have to have that kind of dual consideration of
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  Speaker 3: how hunters and how hunter satisfaction and recruitment and retention
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  Speaker 3: other things might be affected, but also what we believe
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  Speaker 3: is needed for managing the resources.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so let's dive into the deep end then,
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  Speaker 2: because the elephant in the room, the reason why we're
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  Speaker 2: here chatting beyond you being a fellow Michigan State spartan,
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: big fans glad to have someone like that on the
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  Speaker 2: show me. But other than that, you're here because there's been,
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: as you alluded to, this massive news in our home
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: state of Michigan. As you mentioned, the biggest changes in
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: possible changes in deer management that maybe in my lifetime,
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: if this possible one buck limit becomes you know, becomes
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  Speaker 2: an actual regulation. If this goes through, that's a dramatic
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: change in the status quo. And so there's been a
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  Speaker 2: lot of discussion in my state, within my friend groups,
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  Speaker 2: within the broader hunting community. And you know this is
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  Speaker 2: also not just a Michigan thing, right, There's been more
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: and more states switching to this. I remember when Indiana
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  Speaker 2: did it. I've you know, I have hunted in Ohio,
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  Speaker 2: so I talk and have been a part of that
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  Speaker 2: in Ohio. I've been a part of that in Kentucky.
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  Speaker 2: So it seems like this is maybe a direction that
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  Speaker 2: things are trending towards elsewhere. And so my hope with
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  Speaker 2: having you here, Brent, was that I want to get
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: a better sense of several things. And we'll kind of
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  Speaker 2: go through this one one by one, but I at
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  Speaker 2: a high level, I guess kind of set in the stage.
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  Speaker 2: I'd love to understand kind of the broader case for
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  Speaker 2: this kind of regulation. Why might a one buck limit
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  Speaker 2: generically work for some states. That's one thing eventually I
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: want to talk to you about. I also want to
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: better understand kind of the unique process and set of
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: circumstances that led you guys in Michigan to this point.
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  Speaker 2: And maybe that's the place that we should start is
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: with Michigan specifically, what led you and your team to
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: this point where it seemed like a one buck rule
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  Speaker 2: might be a good fit for our state right now.
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: And once we cover that, then we'll kind of zoom
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: out to talk about other states and precedent and history
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: and all that.
• 10:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, so there's there's probably like a short term window
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: on what's gotten us here and there's also a longer
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: term window and what's gotten us here. So I'll talk
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: about the short term first. You know, what you're talking
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: about for proposals just explicitly. You know, in Michigan we
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: work with our Natural Resources Commission. The Department works with
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: our Natural Resources Commission through all the regulation setting process
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: for all hunting and trapping rules, but looking at deer
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: regulations in particular, this is pretty much the calendar and
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: cycle that we use. You know, around the springtime, we
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: got to set up our regulations so that everything's all
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: ready to go by.
• 11:31
  Speaker 4: The coming fall.
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: You backtrack from that, our Natural Resources Commission process that
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: the NRC members, they're not department employees, they are appointed
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: by the governor. They're a citizen panel that have a
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: lot of the authority to set much of our regulations,
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: and they're required to follow a certain cycle to have
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: proposals up for consideration, so the public has a chance
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: to provide input and then they have to wait a
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: set of time until they can actually vote in and
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: act regulations changes. We always backdate from when we have
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: to have things set to what time we need to
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: be introducing these proposals so that they're publicly documented and
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: have a chance for that input, and then backtracking even
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: further from there. We use a variety ways to get
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: input into each of the proposals we put out each year.
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: So for this year, you know, why are we proposing
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: some bigger changes than we have in a while. Well,
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: some of it is because we've had a lot of
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: input asking the department to consider bigger changes than we
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: have entertained in the past, and that's come a couple
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: of different routes. We have a Deer Advisory Team, actually
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: have a Lower Peninsula and Upper Peninsula dear Advisory Team
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: that provides input to the department. They were kind of
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: berthed out of a Deer Management Initiative process that actually
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: the Commission originally put together and made a bunch of
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: changes in twenty twenty four for the twenty twenty four season.
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: After they provided that input to the NRC, they stayed
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: in place.
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: But our advisory to the.
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: And that's where a lot of this originally started. Our
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: dear advisory team did forward a recommendation in Michigan to
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: implement a one buck or to be clear, a one
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: antlered deer limit.
• 13:11
  Speaker 4: Well, you and I I'll probably both call it a buck,
• 13:13
  Speaker 4: but it's one antler deer limit.
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: And then in Michigan, we historically had what we call
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: a single deer license, so you can take one buck
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: if you buy that single deer license. And then we
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: have a combination or a combo deer license that includes
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: two different tags that historically, relatively recent historically has allowed.
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: You to take two deer.
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: Recognizing the potential financial implications if we limited folks to
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: one antler deer one buck, a lot of people might
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: go for that single tag, single license, so the advisory
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: team said, just don't sell that single license anymore. Basically
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: require people to buy two licenses so you don't have
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: a revenue impact.
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  Speaker 4: But let's restrict the harvest to one buck.
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: And we actually we did some investigating that's actually legally
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: not possible.
• 14:02
  Speaker 4: For us to do. We don't have the ability.
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: To simply not sell that license. But in the process
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: of looking at other alternatives. Ultimately, what our proposal was
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: we introduced in the April and our c meeting, is
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: to implement that one antler deer one buck limit statewide
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: and then throughout the Lower Peninsula of Michigan make that
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: single tag valid only for an antlyst deer. And what
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: the combination of those changes would do is it means
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: every deer hunter in the Lower Peninsula in Michigan that
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: went a field would have at least one ANTLYSS license.
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: There's no way you could buy a license to go
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: out deer hunting in the Lower Peninsula and not have
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: at least one ANTLYST license and you'd only be limited
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: to a single buck or single antler deer. And that
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: gets to the broader mentioned there's a longer term question
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: why are we here? And the big challenge we based
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: in Michigan is that we have a hunting culture that
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: still is extremely focused on bucks, extremely focused.
• 15:10
  Speaker 4: On antler deer.
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: We have a really hard time getting our hunters to
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: participate in a significant level in annerless harvest, and we
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: think a big part of that is although there's a
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: relatively few number of hunters that do take two bucks
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: in a given year, that possibility still captures everybody's focus
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: and attention to the point that antless harvest is just
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: not prioritized as much as we believe it needs to be.
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: And so that's why that long term perspective of trying
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: to find as many different ways as possible to encourage.
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: And not imp anerless harvest and not.
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: Finding that to be super successful, and the more recent
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: experience of having more people, not just the DIE advisory team,
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: we can.
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: Talk more about it.
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: There's other folks from the public and even commissioners that
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: have asked us to entertain other options on buck regulations
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: got us to that combination the proposals that we had
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: recently rolled out.
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: So talk to me a little bit more about how
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: a one buck limit broadly might help and maybe is
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: there any precedent or is there any history or other
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: states that we can point towards and showcase, like, hey,
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: this happened in Indiana or Kentucky or Ohio or elsewhere
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: that might serve as a model for what we're trying
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: to achieve in Michigan or elsewhere. Is there anything you
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: can speak to on that front.
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah, there are some models.
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: There's always you know, it's obviously something we hear a
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: lot about. It's not uncommon to have folks come from
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: the public and talk about, you know, I hunted in
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: Iowa and I'm seeing all kinds of great deer in
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: Iowa and they have great books, and or in Ohio,
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: I've done this and you know, this is how they
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: do Itnro Sorry, is this what.
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: They do with their buck Greggs?
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: And obviously you know that's pretty took close group of
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: deer managers in the states that we talk and interact
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: a lot, share a lot of ideas, share a lot
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: of perspectives. There's always some really good insights from how
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: different states do different things. But you know, underlying one
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: of the big things, even just looking in our region,
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: what we can expect to get out of deer regulations
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: in one state.
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: Compared to another.
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: There's been a lot of attention lately Michigan that has
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: We've lost a number of deer hunters over the past
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: couple of decades, right, And that's part of it. Part
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: of the push we're getting is the perception that people
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: don't enjoy Michigan hunting like they did anymore, and that's
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: why they're leaving every state has been contending with declining
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: hunting participation.
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: Michigan is not alone in that.
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: And although we have lost a number of hunters for
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: variety reasons, we've talked about that Marpha line over the
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: last few decades. We still between Michigan and Wisconsin. Across
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: all of the Midwestern states, both of us are around
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: eleven deer hunters per square Michigan's was estimated about ten
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: point seven, in Wisconsin eleven point two, and the next
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: closest states are Ohio and Missouri that are around six
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: or seven deer hunters per square mile. And then you
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: look at states like Iowa that have three or few
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: or deer hunters per square mile. So the combination of
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: things again as I reference, we can talk about a
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: little bit more.
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: Our hunters are so focused on antler deer.
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: And then we have, on average, granted it varies quite
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: a bit around the state, close to eleven deer hunters
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: per square mile.
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: They put a lot of pressure on our deer hurry.
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: And so what a regulation in one state amun accomplished
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: compared to another. You have to consider it a very
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: fundamental thing in terms of the amount of deer hunters
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: and the access that we contend with as well. Michigan
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: and certain parts of the state also has an abundance
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: of public land, a lot more accessibility and opportunity that
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: those lands offer, you know, different from states that are
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: predominantly encompassing private land on the deer range. And so
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: that's really, from our standpoint, a really key consideration. I'll
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: me pause there, make sure there's not something else you
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: want to fall up on it, and then we can
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: certainly jump into the discussion on what we believe a
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: one buck limit well kind of question I might differ
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: from what a lot of people would expect it, you know,
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: to be as a likely outcome as well.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that that's exactly what I was going to ask,
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: is what what do you What does the agency believe
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: this will achieve? What kinds of ripple effects might it have?
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: I can see what I've considered it two different lines
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: of possible impact, one in such a way it might
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: impact bucks, one in such a way that it might
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: impact the antler list harvest. So I have assumptions, I
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: think everybody has assumptions. But what assumptions are you guys
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: working with, and how are you coming to those assumptions.
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah, good question.
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: So you know we have we have assumptions as well
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: as data that we you know, rely on, and a
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: couple of the key things is we we see again,
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: especially this combination of the proposals different treatment of the
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: single deer license and then the limit to one for
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: one ant deer a statewide. One of the things I
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: mentioned we have struggled with is getting an adequate participation
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: in anneralst harvests. So we typically have only about twenty
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: percent of our hunters take an antlest year any given year.
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: Some of them take multiples, but that means we're close
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: to eighty percent of our hunters that go afield that
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: don't even take one antless year each year. Who and overall,
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: you know, our deer harvest and our hunter numbers both
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: peaked around the late nineties early two thousands.
• 21:02
  Speaker 4: That depended on which region you're talking about. If we
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: break our state down into the Upper Peninsula, Northern Lower Peninsula,
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: and southern Lower Peninsula. In southern Lower.
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: Peninsula, that's basically your farmland, a lot of the residential
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: and in urban lands, right, it's productive habitat, but there's
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: also lots of opportunities for conflicts of high numbers of
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: deer around people, crop land, automobiles, and other things. Over
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: the last twenty four years, so from the time we
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: had kind of our all time peak of hunter numbers
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: and harvest only seven out of twenty four years, as
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: our harvest survey estimates showing we've taken more antless deer
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: than antlet bucks only seven out of twenty four years
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: in southern Michigan and the last time it happened was
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: in twenty twelve, So for more than a decade now
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: we have been back in the mode of more hunters
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: are taking bucks than antless deer. In the northern Lower Peninsula,
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: only three out of those twenty four years aver hunter's
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: taken more antlest.
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: Deer than antler bucks, and.
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: Northern Lower includes our bulvine tuberculosis area in the Northeast
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: where we've long term been very aggressive on antrost harvest
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: trying to address that disease sustained within our deer hered
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: in impacting our cultural industry. So for us, that's been
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: one of the perspectives. We have a relatively few number
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: of folks I mentioned that take two antler deer two
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: bucks in a year, but we have all those folks waiting.
• 22:31
  Speaker 4: We believe on.
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: That opportunity to take that deer and forego antlest deer harvest.
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: And that's really at the simplest level, what we want
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: to do is provide a nudge to get more years
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: where we are equivalent or higher on the antlist harvest
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: side than we are on the buck side throughout most
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: of our Lower Peninsula is.
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: What we'd like to accomplish.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: Now, before you go any further, real quick, why does
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: that matter? We've talked about this ad NOSM in many
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: other conversations, but I want to make sure that if
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: someone is new here and is dropping in for this conversation,
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: why is it a problem that we're killing more bucks
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: than does Why are we so concerned about increasing the
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: antler list harvest in Michigan? And what about Bob who
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: lives up in the up or the northern Lower or
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: somewhere where he sees two dos a year and he
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: would never shoot him because there's hardly any deer up there,
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: And he says, who says is more deer? What's your
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: response to all that?
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 23:36
  Speaker 4: Absolutely, so, a couple of things.
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: First of all, again, not to skip over to take
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: it for granted, you know, I'll keep seeing the antlest
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: the idea of antrost service. You hope that most of
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: that is doze, you know, not bucks, swish at antlers,
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: not button bucks and other things. But basically it's that
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: antrolest service of that dough harvest is what we used
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: to manage our population through hunting. Why do we need
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: to take more? Again, as a referenced, we have place
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: by place in Michigan issues we're contending with, like bovine
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: tuberculosis I mentioned in Northeast Michigan. We've been dealing with
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: for decades now, chronic.
• 24:18
  Speaker 4: Wasting disease in a variety of areas.
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: A few places where it's clearly established and we have
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: serious concerns about its potential growing impact others where it's emerging.
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: We do also try and seek that balance. We know
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: hunters like to see lots of deer when they go afield,
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: but we try to balance that with the impacts deer
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: can have with things like crop damage or more and
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: more expansion into suburban communities and conflicts that they cause.
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: Keep deer more broadly valued by Michigan residents on the landscape.
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: If hunters can help us maintain them at something less
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: than close to the maximum that the habitat is able
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: to support them, and then from that idea what the
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: habitat is able to support. You know, there's a lot
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: of different concepts between or around how switching your age
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: ratios or your sex ratios or other things of your
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: population might might affect dear. They certainly behave differently under
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: a lot of different structures from a variety of ways
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: that you can study.
• 25:21
  Speaker 4: Or evaluate that.
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: But the bottom line is we know that deer populations that.
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: Are kept.
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: Further below the capacity of habitat to support them tend
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: to be much more productive so they can actually replace.
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: A higher harvest on an annual basis. They tend to
• 25:39
  Speaker 4: be much more physically.
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: Improve physical development everything from antler development to higher number
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: of funds, younger first year of breeding.
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: And other things.
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: So ultimately, again it's that bigger picture perspective or trying
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: to use hunting across the landscape a tool to try
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: and manage our populations overall. And one of the key
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: ways to do that, again from our perspective, is very
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: simple trying to get more hunters willing to take and
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: anerless deer would be with think a big step forward
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: to improving the capacity of our hunting community to help
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: balance those right things we try to achieve.
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: A few years ago, Brent Chad Stewart sent out a
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: like open letter to the Michigan deer hunting public, and
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: I remember reading that letter and it seemed, what's the
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: word I'm looking for here? It caught my attention because
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: it seemed very transparent about the urgency of the situation
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: at hand. I mean, he really was pleading with hunters, please,
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: we have to start taking more handlerless deer. We need
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: you to participate. This is urgent, this is credit and
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: in so many words, it seemed that he was insinuating
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: that if we the hunting public, cannot demonstrate that we
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: can manage the deer herds, that hunting is an adequate
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: tool to manage the deer herd in Michigan, if we
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: can't show that, there might be some other alternative that
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: might be pushed on us. And it wasn't like he
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: was saying that's imminent, but that was like what I
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: was reading between the lines? Was I reading between the
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: lines correctly? And if so, help me understand that?
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: I think so. I mean, it's.
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: You you mentioned about other things they can be forced
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: upon us. You know, it's one of the things that
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: with with hunting and trapping in general.
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: You know, there's there you you.
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: Know very well that the people that the number of
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: people that participate in these activities is by far a
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: minority of folks on the landscape, and in many ways
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: it's a privilege we have that we don't want to lose.
• 28:07
  Speaker 4: To be able to engage in these activities.
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: That are that are increasingly urban populous doesn't always understand
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: or appreciate, and a variety of the surveys and inquiries
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: and other things of the general public pretty clearly shows
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: that there's a lot of support for certain aspects.
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: Of hunting and there's less so for others.
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: And furthermore, there's a little more ability to accept hunting
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: when it is providing a broader benefit to society than
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: when it is just what hunters get out of it,
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: you know, And one of the things that that can
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: provide that wildlife manages. Frequently references we need hunting to
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: be able to manage, you know, wildlife populations, be able
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: to avoid nuisance while life issues to be able to
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: minimize impacts of disease, especially that can also have crossover
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: into domestic you know, animals, livestock and other things. And
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: if we can't demonstrate that that's being done, then a
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: lot of members of the public that otherwise have little
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: understanding or appreciation for hunting, we can't expect them to
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: want to support those activities, you know, continuing to occur. So,
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: you know, it's don't want to paint a picture of like,
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: watch out, guys.
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: You know there's a big threat next year.
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: You could everything could turn over if you're not taking
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: this thing more seriously.
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: But there is.
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: A considerable need to think about not only now but
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: into the future. If we continue to have struggles getting
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: people to participate in this activity. It's got two factors
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: associated with it. One is there's fewer and fewer folks
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: that will be out there that appreciate, want to protect
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: these opportunities.
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: And two will have even a harder time to manage.
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: Abundant populations if our hunting population continues to decline alongside it,
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: there's only so many deer that hunters are able or
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: willing to take. And that's another factor that we're really
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: looking at it from our regulations, not just what it
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: might accomplish, you know, in the twenty twenty six and
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: twenty seven and twenty eight deer seasons, but over the
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: next decade or two of time, how we might need
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: to reshape our regulations and reshape the general acceptance or
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: experience that folks have when they go field.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: Okay, so kind of back to brass tacks of this
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: change you mentioned how from an antler list perspective, the
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: hope would be that a one buck limit would to
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: some degree push more folks towards, nudge more folks towards
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: taking an analyst deer, because they're not sitting on that
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: second buck tag waiting for that buck there. Instead they
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: killed their one buck. And now it's like, all right, well,
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: I've got a dough tag with me, because like you said,
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: now if you want a buck tag, you also will
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: have an antlerlyst tag with you. Might as well take
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: that antler list deer. Now, were there any other ways
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: that you guys foresee this leading to additional analyst harvest?
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, the one thing that I always thought was
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: just simply the fact that the meat shortage kind of thing.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: If you need more than one deer, now at a minimum,
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: you must now take one analyst deer. So that's an
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: obvious one for those people who depend on that. Were
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: there any other antlerless implications of this that you want
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: to cover, well, I think.
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: You know, I mentioned at a pretty general level some
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: of the the percentages or numbers involved. So again, I
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: think a lot of folks will might might perceive that
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: a two buck limit is going to save a lot
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: of bucks, and again our data shows that's not. The
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: direct number is not substantial. It's been around three to
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: eight percent of hunters in a given year that take
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: two bucks or two antler deer. Right, it's it's not
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: a lot in the grand scheme of things to have
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: carried over, whether it's giving another hunter a chance at
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: a buck, you know, because my neighbor got If my
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: neighbor doesn't get two, maybe one of them comes to me,
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: or in terms of advancing them into a further into
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: an older age class given.
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: Another year or more than that, you know, to grow
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: and continue to develop.
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: But again mentioned only about twenty percent of a hunter's
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: taken antalyst deer. So yes, to your point, if you
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: want a deer or if you want two deer, and
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: your opportunity to fill that slot with a buck is
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: limited compared to what it has been, an ant list
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: deer becomes the natural alternative, you know, choice for folks,
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: and so that's that's quite simply one of the basic
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: things we're trying to accomplish. And we've heard from people
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: and then my inboxes getting.
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: Plenty of input.
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: And I'll say on both sides, but a number of
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: folks that have said, I don't want to take a
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: doll if you limit me to one buck, and some
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: folks will even say, you know, you'll you'll force me
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: to stop hunting after taking a buck. That's obviously not
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: true or not. People have opportunities to take antless deer,
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: but there's still a number of folks that are conveying
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: that viewpoint. I will not take an antless deer if
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: you limit me to one buck.
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: That's the only thing I'm going to have an opportunity
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: to do.
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: It'll be unfortunate if folks, you know, lose the chance
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: to continue hunting, if they'd like to continue hunting, because
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: there's simply refusing any option to take an antwerless deer.
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: But we think there'll be a number of people that
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: even if it's not in the first year or two
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: that they experience, this will probably be won over by
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: the idea of I can probably take a dell it's
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: probably not going to be the end of the world,
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: and hopefully get them over the line to make that
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: contribution and realize that that can be an important part
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: of the hunting experience that maybe they just never really
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: gave close consideration too, because again, they've always had that
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: option to wait for the opportunity for another buck.
• 34:38
  Speaker 4: To come around the corner.
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So one, it just kind of blows my mind
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: that there are still people so fervently antagonistic towards shooting
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: an antlerless deer that they would refuse to do.
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: So.
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: I get it if you're in a place where your
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: deer population is so low that you are trying to
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: recoup that population. But you know, if you live in
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: southern Michigan or some other productive place across the nation
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: that has a pile of deer, it's hard to wrap
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: my head around it. And it's a whole lot of
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: fun that you're missing out on because hunting for does
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: or antler this deer. You know, to be clear, that's
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: a whole lot of fun. I love dough season. But anyways,
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: what I wanted to ask was, let's talk about bucks now,
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: because you know, in many places, Michigan especially, it seems
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: like there's a lot of attention on bucks. The one
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: buck rule has been something that people have talked a
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: lot about as a means to change aspects of our
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: buck hunting opportunities too. Yeah, that's what brought me to
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: it originally, you know, fifteen years ago or whatever it
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: was when I started thinking about this kind of thing.
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: There's been all sorts of different proposals and ideas in
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: our state of Michigan and many other states over recent years,
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: whether that be around using antler point restrictions or one
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: buck rule or different ways that maybe you know, with
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: you know, restrictions that that could maybe lead to changes
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: in the buck harvest and lead to different age classes
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: of deer or you know, bigger bucks. Uh, walk me
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: through what we think this could lead to from a
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: buck perspective.
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So again on the on the perspective of a
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: one buck limit, I mentioned there's not a lot of
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: numbers involved, but there is another element of selectivity that's
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: potentially affected by reducing folks to a single buck tag.
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: So I mentioned it's around three to eight percent, seven
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: percent or whatever of our hunters that take two bucks or.
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: Two antler deer in a given year.
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: That's with our our numbers over the last you know,
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: decade or so, that's around thirty two thousand deer on average.
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: That is a second buck, right.
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: So if we had if if in past years you
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: couldn't take two bucks, around thirty thousand or so of those.
• 36:58
  Speaker 4: Deer would have been or not put in the bag.
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: Now we know some of them would have, like I said,
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: gone over the fence line and maybe someone else would
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: have taken them. We know we can't always stockpile deer, right,
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: other things kill them other than hunting, So it's not
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: really a definitive number. But the other thing we do
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: we can look at. Again, I mentioned we have a
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: regulation structure in Michigan where folks have had an option
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: to buy just a single license for an antler deer,
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: whether they don't think they're going to hunt that much
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: or whether they're not interested in having.
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: More than one deer, et cetera.
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: And we have seen you mentioned Antler point restrictions. We
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: do have Antler point restrictions in different parts of the state.
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: We have some antler point restrictions in the Upper Peninsula
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: that only apply depending on what type of license you have,
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: but Southern Michigan again has been the one area where
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: it's broadly open really on what you're able to take.
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: And what we've seen there is that hunters in Southern
• 37:56
  Speaker 4: Michigan recent years that have only had a single bucklight
• 38:00
  Speaker 4: sense single antler deer license, about sixty percent of those folks,
• 38:06
  Speaker 4: we're taking a buck with four or more antler points
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: on one side, whereas if folks were hunting with that
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: combination license that gives them two tags, so they've had
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: an option to use those for antre list deer, but
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: that's the only way you've been able to have licenses
• 38:21
  Speaker 4: that will allow you to take two antlered bucks. Only
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: around forty percent of those folks are taking bucks with
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: four more antler points on a side. So you know,
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: it makes sense, and we've had discussion about if you
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: have two licenses, essentially, well, I can either I can
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: go ahead and take whatever deer I see with the
• 38:42
  Speaker 4: idea that maybe a bigger buck comes along. So there's
• 38:45
  Speaker 4: probably a little bit less you know, selection involved there,
• 38:48
  Speaker 4: because you know, you can always have another go at it.
• 38:52
  Speaker 4: It makes sense, but that's the closest you know, data
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: we have to directly look at the see. Yeah, there's
• 38:57
  Speaker 4: actually some evidence there too that folks with a single
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: license are more selective. Now, we could argue, you know,
• 39:05
  Speaker 4: if you weren't selective in the past with two tags,
• 39:07
  Speaker 4: maybe you don't really care, and if you're forced to
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: only be able to take one antler buck, there won't
• 39:10
  Speaker 4: be a difference. But I think that's pretty good indication
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: that folks will likely, especially if they hunt multiple seasons
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: and multiple days, probably aren't going out in early archery
• 39:20
  Speaker 4: season if they've got a single license for a buck
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: and taken whatever comes in front of them with antlers,
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: recognizing that they've got lots of later opportunity.
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: So in that scenario, some Southern Michigan hunters, again hoping
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: that I'll push their willingness to take an antless deer
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: so they can get a deer in the bag, know
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: that they've gotten some venison secured for the year, and
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: continue to wait on that single opportunity for an antler buck,
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: and maybe more of those younger, smaller bucks walk not
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: just because of the street numbers game, but because of
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: the selectivity being a little bit affected by that different
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: let's say, regulatory package.
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, anecdotally, that was what I had always seen from,
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: seen from and and heard from folks using combo tags.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: You know, oftentimes there's that guy who everybody wants to
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: get their buck, right, at least the old traditional way
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: in Michigan was you got to get your buck and
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: then after that, then I'll be a little bit picky.
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: I even know, like some pretty die hard deer hunters
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: and good friends of mine who still kind of feel
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: that way that they'd like to get a big old buck,
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: but I got to get that nice bass credit eight
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: still because they got me fired up. Uh, and then
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: they'll then they'll wait and wait and wait and maybe
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: take a bigger, older one someday. So I'm a little
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: curious about the But how much that side of things
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: matters too, from your perspective, because I know there's a
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: lot of like a lot of folks in the hunting community,
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: especially you know, those who have been more involved in
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: the management side of things, or maybe the younger generations
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: who put a higher van value on you know, older
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: age class bucks. The opportunity to kill a mature buck,
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: the opportunity to see a big antlered buck, all of
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: those things in recent decades have become more and more
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: important to our community. I think more and more people
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: are traveling out of state to go to these other
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: states where they're seemingly better opportunity at those things. So
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: I'm curious about the why from that perspective, like, do
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: you guys care that this might lead to more old
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: age class bucks and bigger deer for hunters? Does that
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: matter to the Department Natural Resources? Does that matter because
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: it's satisfying a desire from the hunting population, or is
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: really that just going to be a nice side effect
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: of the hopeful antalyst impacts.
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess probably to be blunt, it's more the
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: ladder of a nice of a nice side effect.
• 41:53
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: We again, within our we have a we have a
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: deer management plan in Michigan.
• 41:59
  Speaker 4: It's it's ten years old.
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: It's up to be revised and potentially evolved this coming year.
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: But it does have some pretty broad, just strategic level goals,
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: and it includes maintaining hunting both as a management tool
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: and as a recreational opportunity and just part of kind
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: of the culture of the landscape at Michigan.
• 42:26
  Speaker 4: So we are definitely.
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: Committed to trying to provide valuable and enjoyable hunting.
• 42:34
  Speaker 4: Experiences for folks.
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: But what constitutes a valuable and enjoyable hunting experience also
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: varies pretty widely. What doesn't vary pretty widely is highly
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: abundant deer populations create all kinds of potential problems.
• 42:51
  Speaker 4: Both for deer and for their habitat and for a
• 42:54
  Speaker 4: variety of other things, And so.
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: Regulations, quite frankly, are a pretty blunt tool to try
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: and manage all the various outcomes that you could get
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: from a different, highly different structured population, trying to kind
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: of just seek a different balance of our buck to
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: dough ratio of our harvest and a little bit more
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: management impact from the harvest outcome. Not only would this
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: regulation change, but with almost all of our past regulations,
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: really where much of the focus of our management efforts are.
• 43:30
  Speaker 4: Getting into.
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: Some of the nuances I referenced a little bit previously
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: of how the sex and age ratios and structure of
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: a population, how much they impact from a biological standpoint.
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: If you could have a high degree of control over
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: those things, you can probably see some notable outcomes by
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: manipulating them, but accomplishing that across a land escape of
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: a place is diverse as Michigan with basic hunting regulations,
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: it is pretty hard to accomplish.
• 44:09
  Speaker 4: So the short answer is.
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: There's not really a biologically right or wrong structure for
• 44:17
  Speaker 3: some of those population ratios and other things.
• 44:20
  Speaker 4: But also, quite frankly, it's just not something.
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: We've got a lot of ability to regulate from a
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: hunting regulation perspective.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: Okay, are you guys operating under the assumption though, that
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: this change will likely lead to a higher proportion of
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: older age class bucks being a part of the harvest
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: in the future. I mean, when I look at this, Yeah,
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: the way I look at aus and I would assume
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: things might go is that to your point earlier, there's
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: going to be some degree of folks who are going
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: to kill the first buck that they see, no matter
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: what and what I like about I'll insert a little
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: bit of my own bias here. When I have thought
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: about this and looked at all the different approaches that
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: people pitch for fixing our deer situation, if if you
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: want to call it that, some people want Antler point
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: restrictions because it'll lead to, you know, more older age
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: class bucks, or some people want a one buck rule
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: because it would possibly lead to that. But what I
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: like about the one buck limit is that it preserves
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: the opportunity to choose. So if you are the person
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: who doesn't care at all about that and just wants
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: to shoot a buck, more power to you. You've got
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: one buck tag to use however you see fit. You
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: can shoot that spike if you'd like. On the other hand,
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: if you're somebody who you know has been kind of
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: on the fence and you're like, you like a big buck,
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: but in the past, maybe you would. You know, some
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: years you get the big ones, some DearS you don't. Well,
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: now you're gonna be a little bit pickier, you're gonna
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: wait a little bit, or you'll consider taking that antalyst
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: deer first to get your deer for the year. And
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: now you be a little bit picky with your buck tag,
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: so you you would, inevitably, I think, see more older
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: bucks and older bucks equal eventually bigger bucks. Whatever the
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: thing is that matters to you, you're going to see that.
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: But it allows people, no matter what their tradition is,
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: no matter what their value is, you can go for
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: big ones or you can shoot the little ones. You
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: just have to make that choice, knowing full well that
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: that's your choice and you have one opportunity to do so.
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: I've liked that about it. But are you guys operating
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: under the assumption that my assumptions are correct? Do we
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: foresee in older age class of bucks in the future.
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: Should we expect in some number of years that what
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: we can experience in northern Ohio or northern Indiana where
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: they have one buck rules, might we experience that in
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: southern Michigan, just over the border now with this new
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: regulatory structure, so.
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: I would say, and when we so, when we give
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: our recommendations to the Natural Resources Commission, we always we
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: include a memo that goes with it and provides it's
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: pretty brief, but some high level feedback on expected biology,
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: social economic impacts.
• 47:01
  Speaker 4: Of any other regulations changes.
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: We were pretty straightforward that the combination of regulations we've proposed,
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: we don't believe. I don't believe will lead to an
• 47:12
  Speaker 3: immediate dramatic change in our harvest. I think it will
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: be a nudge in the direction that you referenced. I
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: do believe over time, especially as hunters kind of contend
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: with a new regulatory structure they haven't had to deal with,
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: we will see more bucks passed. We will see probably
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: a continued creep towards an older buck age structure. But honestly,
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: we've been seeing that for decades in Michigan, not as
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: fast as a lot of people would like, and not
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: as pronounced as in some places, but from again, the
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: combination of some rules like antler point restrictions in some areas,
• 47:54
  Speaker 3: and just a general changing attitude. We've seen that happen
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: for whatever reason in Michigan. One thing not seen happens
• 48:02
  Speaker 3: much changing or reprioritization on the antrost harvest side. So
• 48:05
  Speaker 3: to your latter question, would we see something like as
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: occurred in you know, name that other state I referenced earlier.
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: We still have a higher number of hunters than those
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: other states. So dropping the success rate of antlered buck harvis,
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: which you know, for us is actually close to fifty
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: percent of our hunters. You know, do take a take
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: a deer. I think it's about the same for antlered
• 48:29
  Speaker 3: deer as well. They're still going to be removing a
• 48:33
  Speaker 3: lot of deer off the landscape. Even with a little
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: bit of that reservation, but it will increase our trend
• 48:39
  Speaker 3: in that direction. And what we would see a lot
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: more acceleration around is if hunters in southern Michigan, it
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: would be more like, quite frankly, our southern neighbors who
• 48:48
  Speaker 3: have always been more aggressive with their willingness to take
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: antros deer take dose. You simply got to make a
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: little bit more room on the landscape for that hopefully
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: growing buck population by make a little bit more space
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: on the reducing overall densities and bringing more does into
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: into the game bag and home with you can.
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: Can you expand on that a little bit for somebody
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: who maybe has not nerded out on this as much
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: as you and I have, who have not dug into
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: the implications of of you know, of a herd structure
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: or habitat capacity and how that can impact things. If
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: I'm a deer hunter who will love to shoot a
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: big old buck someday I live in Michigan, I've assumed
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: I've got to go to Ohio or Indiana to do that.
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: You just told me that they have that in part
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: because they kill more antlerless deer. At first glance, I
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: might be like, how does that make any sense?
• 49:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: Can you help me understand simply, like, how does killing more,
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: antlerless deer lead to healthier, possibly older, bigger bucks.
• 49:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So, Actually, one of the.
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: One of the foundational original research studies that looked at
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: the way deer populations grow and the different dynamics at
• 50:06
  Speaker 3: different densities or abundance was from the Georgie Reserve, which
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: is a property associated with another university in Michigan in
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: the southern part of the state.
• 50:20
  Speaker 4: And deer populations.
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: You think conceptually, but again this was borne out by
• 50:27
  Speaker 3: looking at an actual deer population and a fenced enclosure
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: that was founded from a small number of individuals and
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: then it was watched to grow over time. If you
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: had an area devoiative deer and you put a few
• 50:40
  Speaker 3: deer in, there's not a lot of deer around. So
• 50:42
  Speaker 3: to your point, hunters aren't going to see a lot
• 50:44
  Speaker 3: of deer or a lot of bucks, right because there's
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: just not very many there. But the habitat is able
• 50:49
  Speaker 3: to support there's no competition for resources. Every deer has
• 50:54
  Speaker 3: abundant food available, they've got abundant cover, they have everything
• 50:57
  Speaker 3: that they need, and that leads to females being highly productive.
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: That leads to more more incidents.
• 51:04
  Speaker 4: Of deer breeding when they're only a year.
• 51:07
  Speaker 3: Old, so you've got basically funds becoming pregnant and having
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: their first faun.
• 51:13
  Speaker 4: You know, as they're yearling, you have more triplets and
• 51:17
  Speaker 4: more twins and fewer singles, and so you have a
• 51:21
  Speaker 4: very high rate of growth. So you don't have a
• 51:24
  Speaker 4: lot of deer, but you have a lot of funds
• 51:26
  Speaker 4: per dough and you have a high rate of growth.
• 51:30
  Speaker 4: On the buck side, that lack of competition for resources means,
• 51:35
  Speaker 4: you know, bucks put all their energy first into their
• 51:37
  Speaker 4: basic maintenance of their body and growth and you know,
• 51:40
  Speaker 4: fending off any illness injury on other things. The last
• 51:44
  Speaker 4: thing they invest energy in, just from a it's not
• 51:47
  Speaker 4: a choice, it's a physiology aspect is antler development. So
• 51:51
  Speaker 4: if they got tons of resources available to them and
• 51:53
  Speaker 4: they're not really strained, antlers are going to look a
• 51:56
  Speaker 4: lot better than if they are constantly competing and stressed
• 52:01
  Speaker 4: and under pressure to secure the resources that they need.
• 52:05
  Speaker 4: And so that's the combination of reasons why as you
• 52:08
  Speaker 4: begin to get a more moderately abundant deer population, you
• 52:13
  Speaker 4: generally still see those things not competing for resources.
• 52:17
  Speaker 3: Buck Antler development is great. Those are still highly productive
• 52:21
  Speaker 3: and you can actually kill more deer that will then
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: be replaced by that high number of new animals entering
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: the population than if you allow them to continue to grow.
• 52:34
  Speaker 3: So as they continue to grow, antler development starts to
• 52:37
  Speaker 3: decline on bucks, productivity starts to decline on adult females.
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: Fawnds are no longer becoming pregnant, and you're straining the
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: ability of habitat to support that population. So it's not
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: always intuitive, but having fewer deer on the landscape, having
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: a hunt a little bit harder for them. There's a
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: lot of evidence in that too. It takes a little
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: bit more time per kill as you begin to reduce
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: the numbers on the ground. Still puts you in a
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: scenario though, to actually replace a pretty high level harvest
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: and have deer in.
• 53:12
  Speaker 4: Pretty good condition around them.
• 53:15
  Speaker 3: The last thing on a local and local scale as well,
• 53:19
  Speaker 3: also have a lot less dispersal. There's a lot of
• 53:22
  Speaker 3: biological factors that do lead young bucks off and to
• 53:25
  Speaker 3: leave an area and go on, but you have a
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: little lower dispersal rates, a little more opportunity to hold
• 53:29
  Speaker 3: you know those bucks around if you're not at that
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: hyper abundant.
• 53:33
  Speaker 4: Level as well.
• 53:33
  Speaker 3: So again, those are all the things I mentioned, Like
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: it'd be great to like study and look and determine
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: for your exactly what the right number is and right
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: ratios are to balance all that stuff out.
• 53:44
  Speaker 4: We can't really do that at that level.
• 53:46
  Speaker 3: But understanding the basic idea of keeping deer a little
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: bit further below the maximum ability to habitat to support
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: them yields a lot of those same kind of benefits
• 53:56
  Speaker 3: and seeing good antler development, good healthy deer, nice activity.
• 54:01
  Speaker 4: It's a pretty good scenario if you can get yourself.
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: There is there any data available from other states that
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: have done this that can help us confirm or deny
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: our assumptions around this. You know, when I look at Indiana,
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: which is I think the most recent that I can
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: remember at least where a state switched to the one
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: BUCKLEMA at least within my recent memory, anecdotally, it seems
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: like they made that change, and then over the last
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: you know, five, six, seven, eight years, it seemingly that
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: there's just been more and more big old bucks taken there.
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: That just seems like Indiana has been rocketing up the
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: charts as far as producing you know, record book qualifying
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: bucks and all that kind of stuff. But I recognize
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: that that's anecdotal, that's, you know, just a snapshot. Do
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: we have any data from Indiana or Kentucky or Ohio
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: or any other state like that that could help us
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: get a better sense of the possible impacts because we're
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: guessing and assuming and thinking and hoping. I'm just curious
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: if history, if precedent at all, might lead us on
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: this front too.
• 55:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, when Indiana first put a one buck limited place,
• 55:16
  Speaker 3: and it's also it's also worth noting when that first occurred,
• 55:20
  Speaker 3: they had a one buck per season limits you could
• 55:23
  Speaker 3: take two, but they still had to be in distinct seasons.
• 55:25
  Speaker 3: You couldn't take two, you know, in firearm to archery
• 55:28
  Speaker 3: or whatever. So it wasn't quite the same shift. But
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: as they put a one buck limit in place, it
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: looked at two things. Similarly, they looked at what effect
• 55:36
  Speaker 3: it had on buck harvest, but also on antroless harvest.
• 55:42
  Speaker 3: And there was a bit of a push up in
• 55:44
  Speaker 3: the initial years of that change on ant roless harvest,
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: although it had been on the rise, you know, to
• 55:51
  Speaker 3: begin with already and there was.
• 55:53
  Speaker 4: A big of a bit of a decline in buck harvest.
• 55:57
  Speaker 3: Not surprising you've reduced that limit right after a few years,
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: a lot of the same tendencies kind of crep back in, though,
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: So I don't know that it's been examined, and I
• 56:10
  Speaker 3: know I haven't looked at anything to see if that
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: factor of adding a little more selectivity in with a
• 56:15
  Speaker 3: single buck limit may have been an additional factor, and
• 56:19
  Speaker 3: then having a little bit more availability of those older
• 56:22
  Speaker 3: deer might have allowed to kind of resetting of what
• 56:25
  Speaker 3: the harvest level could be sustained. Right, You just graduated
• 56:29
  Speaker 3: folks up in age class or two. That's not unlike
• 56:33
  Speaker 3: what we've seen in Michigan in many places with.
• 56:36
  Speaker 4: Handler point restrictions, is.
• 56:37
  Speaker 3: That the first year or two they're in place, buck
• 56:40
  Speaker 3: carvest overall drops, right, because you don't have people just
• 56:44
  Speaker 3: simply targeting the first antler deer that they see, and
• 56:47
  Speaker 3: you tend to tip the scale up where a lot
• 56:52
  Speaker 3: of times a year ling or maybe a two and
• 56:54
  Speaker 3: a half year old buck was what most people were taking.
• 56:57
  Speaker 4: You've pushed it up to two.
• 56:58
  Speaker 3: And a half or three and a half years old.
• 57:01
  Speaker 3: You tend to get the buck harvest back pretty close
• 57:04
  Speaker 3: to what it was before. You've just graduated up a
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: year class or two, and see things really kind of
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: fall back into what they were as long as the
• 57:13
  Speaker 3: hunter numbers stay, you know, relatively the same.
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: Okay, I want to share with you some of the
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: pushback that I've gotten on this. Some of my friends,
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: some folks who have seen me talk about this publicly,
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: have have offered me some of their concerns. And I
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: think there's many, many different opinions. I'm sure, as you said,
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: you've gotten blown up and you're in box full of them,
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: But most of them kind of come down to, you know,
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: a couple things other than what you just described, which
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: is like, I simply refuse to do this because I
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: don't like anybody telling me to do something I don't
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: want to do. But one of the big ones is
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: that there seems to be a resistance from some to
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: believe that this will actually lead to an increase in
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: dough harvest. Some folks that I've talked to said, well,
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: you know what, most folks would that would typically have
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: just shot the first buck they saw and then maybe
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: held out for another buck. Now that guy is just
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: going to shoot the first Bucky sees and quit hunting
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: for the year, and he's not going to hunt at
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: all anymore, and he's not going to shoot that dough anyways,
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: when maybe in the past, if he had a combo tag,
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: he would have shot that first buck he saw, he
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: would have kept hunting throughout the rest of the year
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: for that second buck, and then maybe would have incidentally
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: taken a dough or two because he was continuing to
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: hunt throughout the rest of the year trying to get
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: that big, big booner or whatever have you got. I
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: guess what's your thought on that particular pushback.
• 58:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so, first of all, I don't doubt that there
• 58:53
  Speaker 3: will be people that will do what folks have said.
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: You know, they'll they'll still take the first or close
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: to the first buck they see, or even maybe a
• 59:02
  Speaker 3: buck that's just below what they would prefer, and then
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: decide Undone, I'm gonna go watch the Lions trying to
• 59:11
  Speaker 3: win another game or two.
• 59:12
  Speaker 4: And not worry about getting out and hunting any longer.
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: The challenge is, and I don't want to sound callous,
• 59:18
  Speaker 3: and I don't want to diminish the fact that again,
• 59:21
  Speaker 3: I want people to be out there hunting, Moore. I
• 59:23
  Speaker 3: want them enjoying themselves. I don't want to see people
• 59:31
  Speaker 3: hunting less and contributing less to that outdoor experience in
• 59:36
  Speaker 3: economy and so forth. But if we are dependent on
• 59:40
  Speaker 3: people who will only take an antlist deer at the
• 59:44
  Speaker 3: last resort, close to the last few days or hours
• 59:49
  Speaker 3: of their hunting season in order to accomplish an antlist
• 59:52
  Speaker 3: harvest we need, then we are going to be up
• 59:56
  Speaker 3: a creek in more years down the road as we
• 59:58
  Speaker 3: continue to challenge ourselves to keep hunters engaged on the landscape.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 4: And so we got to try and push some folks, I.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 3: Would say, in that mindset to no longer fall back
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 3: on that second buck tag and try and encourage them
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 3: to experience the opportunity to take an antlest deer, contribute
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 3: to that side of the harvest, and hopefully, if not,
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 3: really invigorate our deer harvest and reduce deer numbers and
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 3: see some of the benefits like we talk about, at
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 3: least realize I didn't result to take an antlist deer,
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 3: and you know what, it wasn't the worst thing.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: Ever.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 3: Maybe that's just should be part of my deer hunting experience.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 3: So in terms of thinking about it and what I
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 3: hope individual hunters get out of it is kind of
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 3: that get over that hang up and realize that this
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 3: is an okay thing, if not a great thing to
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 3: experience and contribute to, but also just to kind of
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 3: reset that mental calibration of our deer hunters I mentioned.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 3: I don't think this will lead to a dramatic change
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 3: just in a year or two, because again, I think
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 3: even individual hunters sometimes you have to go afield a
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 3: year or two, and with some folks quite frankly, that
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 3: don't hunt every single year, that might take three, four
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 3: or five years that they're out there.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 4: A couple of years under a new regulation structure to
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 4: make that transition. Right.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 3: So that's why it might take a decade under a
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 3: different regulation structure for the vast majority of our hunters,
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 3: they have gone through that mental exercise and determine what
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 3: they're kind of new normal is.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: So another piece of pushback I got from some folks
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: was that, well, if they really want if this is
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: really about dough harvest, if they really want us killing more,
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: does why don't they give us dough tags? Why have
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: some of the proposals we've seen talked about limiting the
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: number of dough tags being available. I saw one of
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: the proposals was shifting from a max of ten to
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: a mac of five in some places. Why are those
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: types of things not being explored versus this buck limit?
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: Can you explain that one?
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that. So there's a couple
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 3: of layers to that. First of all, some of the
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 3: more restrictive approaches to antless harvest are also things that
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 3: have been brought through at the request of our Natural
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 3: Resources Commission, and the Department actually hasn't been supportive of
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 3: all of those proposed changes. But even within that some
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 3: of it, there's also a proposal to restrict the use
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 3: of antlest licenses. So in Michigan, in most places, in
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 3: everywhere in the Lower Peninsula in recent years, you could
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 3: buy up to ten what we call universal antlest licenses,
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 3: it's the antlyst tag, and every hunter could.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 4: Go use those licenses.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 3: There's even a few other kinds of ways you can
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 3: take antalist here as well.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 4: Well.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 3: Those REGs aren't in place because we want every hunter
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 3: to buy and use ten ant or less licenses. They're
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 3: in place because there are some places where there's severe
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 3: crop damage issues, where deer management co ops that sometimes
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 3: only have a handful of people that are willing and
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 3: able to take a lot of antless deer and really
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 3: try and push the boundaries on changing their kind of
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 3: population structure. And so our approach on that liberal side
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 3: has been largely keeping tools available for the relatively small
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 3: number of folks that use them at a local scale,
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 3: not because that's what we want every hunter to do. Now,
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 3: why aren't we also, you know, further discounting or making
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 3: it easier giving away you know, antlest tags. The history
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 3: of the agency, we've taken a lot of different approaches
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 3: to those things. In generally, sometimes there's some combination of
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 3: things that get a slight bump up for a year
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 3: or two, and generally it declines again afterwards. So the
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 3: bottom line is both folks, about half of hunters don't
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 3: take any deer, about half of hunters are successful. When
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 3: we get up to our number of hunters that take
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 3: two or three or more deer, it drops only five
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 3: percent or so of our hunters take three or more deer.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 3: So there's only so many that they want to take.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 3: Given a free anterless license. Again, I would certainly put
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 3: a tag into everybody's pocket. But as we've already seen,
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 3: lots of options already exist for people to take antless deer,
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 3: and they're simply unwilling to.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 4: So we really still feel.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 3: That by having that alternative to take two bucks, that's
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 3: a hang up for a lot of folks that are
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 3: only going to take one or two deer that don't
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 3: choose to make one of those be an antlest deer.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 3: And that's not a that's probably not another one of
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 3: those not necessarily intuitive or easy answers to give to folks.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 3: But we would still encourage, certainly for people that do
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 3: have the desire and ability to take multiples to contribute.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 4: But the bottom eye is we're just trying to get
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 4: more folks to take.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 3: A dough and by limiting what other alternatives they have,
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 3: we're trying to provide that nudge over time and that direction.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: Okay, so another one that you You did sort of
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: address this earlier, but I want to make sure we
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: address it really clearly so people pick up on this.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: What about the funding concerns. I've heard some people say, well,
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: we're always hearing about how there's funding issues with the DNR,
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: and they're always needing more valors. Why would you limit
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: us to only be able to get one buck tag now?
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: And now people are not going to buy two buck tags.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: They maybe won't even keep hunting for you know, the
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: additional part of the season, so they're not going to
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: buy that extra dough tag. This is going to end
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: up leading to not only me being pissed off because
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: I can't shoot two bucks, but now I'm not going
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: to spend as much money with the state and that's
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: not going to be good either. What do you guys
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: say to that one?
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so I mentioned really early on the original proposal
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 3: from the Dear Advisory teams was to just simply not
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 3: sell that single deer license with again that recognition if
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 3: you've just cave.
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 4: They just gave the you can't take two bucks.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 3: Our combination license has been our most popular license in
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 3: recent years, and I follow those folks with just you know,
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 3: downgrade essentially to half priced twenty bucks for the single
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 3: dear license. That'd be pretty big revenue impact, So they
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 3: just just don't sell it. So our recommendation in the
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 3: Lower Peninsula to make that tag an antrolest license.
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 4: Really is a two part.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 3: It is, like I mentioned one approach to say there's
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 3: now no way a hunter doesn't go a field with
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 3: an aneros license. We don't think many people are going
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 3: to buy that single deer license only using it for
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 3: an antrosteer, because for the same price, or in some
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 3: places or seasons for less than that price, they can
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 3: get in the anarrolest tag. Right, So there is a
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 3: revenue consideration there as well. It's a combination of saying
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 3: that there's now no way in which a hunter and
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 3: Lower Peninsula wouldn't have an antless license, but also quite frankly,
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 3: we do think it'll be a pushback to offset the
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 3: number of people that would dowgrade to that single tag. Ultimately,
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 3: in a Lower Peninsula, we've had a little bit under
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 3: about one hundred thousand hunters that have been purchasing that
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 3: single deer license.
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 4: In some ways, So those are the people most directly
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 4: impacted that we know.
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 3: Again probably the vast majority, if not one hundred percent
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 3: of them, are buying that license for a buck. They
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 3: will have to choose if they want to have an
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 3: opportunity to take an antlad deer to buy the combination license,
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 3: it'll be forty bucks instead of twenty dollars, but it'll
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 3: also include an ant elyst license available to them. On
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 3: the other side, we've had hundreds of thousands of additional
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 3: folks that have been buying the combination license. They will
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 3: still be able to take an antlered buck. Again, over
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 3: ninety percent of our hunters have only taken one antlest deer.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 3: They're not going to be constrained from doing that, but
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 3: they'll have a second tag and if they want to.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 4: Use it, it's going to be for an antlest deer.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 3: So from that perspective, we really think in terms of
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 3: the outcome, there's not a dramatic impact on the majority
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 3: of hunters in terms of the options available to them.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 3: We're hoping that option of an antlest deer, which is
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 3: really more of a forced choice upon them, as something
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 3: they'll elect to take an opportunity.
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 2: Yet, are there any other major gripes that you've been
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: getting in your inbox or that the that the department
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: has been getting from folks that we haven't addressed yet
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: that you'd.
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 4: Like to Well, there are a couple of things. Some
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 4: of them are gripes and some are just other important considerations.
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 3: First of all, we've talked a lot about the Lower Peninsula,
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 3: So are your up listeners or anybody else.
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 4: From a similar kind of landscape will probably, you know,
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 4: give me grief about that good pint. Yeah, we have.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 3: We have not proposed changing the single tag in the
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 3: up and we've had since two thousand and nine in
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 3: the Upper Peninsula what we call hunter's choice regulations, where
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 3: someone buys that single deer license. It's good for any
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 3: antro deer if someone buys the combination license when they
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 3: use it in the same license everywhere, but to use
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 3: it in the Upper Peninsula, there's actually a requirement minimum
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 3: three points on a side for for deer. In the
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 3: Up And we've always had on the restricted tag of
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 3: the combination license a minimum four point on the.
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 4: Side, so a reference earlier.
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 3: We have this variety of antler type restrictions, and that's
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 3: one of them there that that combination license for many
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 3: years has had a restriction statewide on the second tag.
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 3: It's one of the reasons also why fewer people take
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 3: two bucks, because one of them does have to have
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 3: that restriction on it.
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 4: So we've proposed.
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 3: Leaving that single license be eligible for an antler deer
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 3: in the Upper Peninsula, the challenge is and again even
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 3: in the UP it's not monolithic. There's places in the
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 3: Nominee County south central up close to the Wisconsin border
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 3: that there's actually quite an abundant deer herd.
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 4: There's less impact from winter.
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 3: Whether they take the majority of deer harvested in the
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 3: UP or in that region and they can sustain it
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 3: ros harvest there, But that would be the area of
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 3: the UP where those other tags that aren't valid for
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 3: bucks anymore. That's the only option that folks that have
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 3: across all seasons to take an antalist year. So there
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 3: are places in the Upper Peninsula where in the past
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 3: they've been able to take that by that combination license. Yes,
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 3: it's been a point restriction on both of those tags,
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 3: but it's given them the chance to continue to go afield,
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 3: and they'll be more limited in those options by not
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 3: having as many places open.
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 4: For antlest harvest.
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 3: The other thing I will also point out is that
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 3: even in the the April mission meeting of our Natural
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 3: Resources Commissions, when I rolled out all these proposals, by
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 3: the way, those those meetings are now live streamed and
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 3: they're recorded, so everybody wants to go see everything that
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 3: was presented, all the information that's all available through the
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 3: Department's YouTube page. But the commissioners immediately made some amendments
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 3: that would also potentially add point restrictions. I would add
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 3: some different restrictions. We may they may not choose to
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 3: take the Department's recommendation to change that single license to
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 3: an anneralst only, dear, And it's the May meeting on.
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 4: The thirteenth.
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 3: Of May coming up that each of those amendments and
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 3: the other potential new amendments and then the final deer
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 3: regulations package you know, will be voted on. And so
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 3: again as a reference, we've spent a lot of time
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 3: talking about what the Department's proposals are, but in this
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 3: process there's still additional outcomes that might take place and
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 3: pretty short window of time before all that stuff.
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: Onefold, So how can the public participate in that?
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So that's one of the key ways is that
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 3: from our from the Natural Resource Commission's website, you can
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 3: get the information on all the proposed REGs changes when
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 3: the meetings are occurring, information on signing up if you
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 3: want to have input, and there's an email inbox directly
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 3: to the NRC to provide comments. So that's one of
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 3: the key ways. And I'll also add, you know, in
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 3: the mix of all this, because we've had people asking
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 3: about timelines not only of the votes and the outcomes,
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 3: but all of the changes to these buck licenses. The
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 3: department is proposed not to take effect until twenty twenty seven,
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 3: because our deer licenses go on sales starting March first,
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 3: and we've had probably close to sixty thousand people that
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 3: have already bought deer licenses. Now, we'd prefer that those
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 3: changes then not go into place to twenty seven, so
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 3: people know that, you know, what they planned when they
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 3: bought their license is still how the regulations work. But
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 3: there was an amendment introduced by one of the commissioners
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 3: that would put changes in place in twenty six, So
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 3: there's an opportunity that that might there's a chance that
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 3: that might become the rules in the books already in
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 3: this forthcoming deer season. So we're continuing to have a
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 3: lot of discussions about that. We feel pretty strongly that
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 3: it would be the preference that wait until twenty seven
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 3: for unfolding. But there's been a variety of input both ways.
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 3: Some folks are upset don't want to see things change.
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 3: We've had other people say, hey, we appreciate the direction,
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 3: we support what the Department's doing, but we don't want
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 3: to wait twenty seven.
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 4: We want to happen now.
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 3: Let's get these rules changed, and let's minimize the potential
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 3: that maybe a regulation changes, is voted on and then
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 3: it is undone before you know, we have a season
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 3: able to see that unfold. I feel that undoing that
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 3: change is highly unlikely in the Department, and the Commission
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 3: would be you know, ill advised to make that change
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 3: when we push pushed through getting any substantial alteration in place.
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 4: But there's some anxiety around that. Folks that want to
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 4: see the the the hill, you know.
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 3: Surmounted right now here while it's in front of us,
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 3: and jump right into the.
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 4: The new normal.
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 2: What's this antler point restriction amendment that you mentioned.
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 3: So there's been a couple of different things involved, but
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 3: one of the pose was being entertained is that take
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 3: the Department's recommendation to put a one buck one antler
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 3: deer limit in place, but instead of putting the restriction
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 3: on the single tag to an antalist license, put a
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 3: point restriction on it, and so that's another I believe
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 3: that's kind of a dual consideration. Some members of the
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 3: public that have been very vocal on supporting and pushing
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 3: for some other changes recommended have said they feel an
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 3: antler prite restriction is needed in addition to a one
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 3: buck limit to keep progressing on protecting some.
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 4: Younger deer and advancing the buck age class.
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 3: And again there's a little bit of a thinking that
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 3: similar to making the switch to an ant list deer,
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 3: we think will reduce the number of people that would
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 3: would switch up and downgrade, you know, they're purchased from.
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 4: A combo to a single license.
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 3: I think some commissioners think that would be another you know,
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 3: potential benefit. Restriction on the single license would mean that
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 3: anybody with just one licenses probably passing those younger deer
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 3: that don't meet that point restriction. But also that might
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 3: keep folks in the combination license purchase camp and reduce
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 3: the amount of people that would basically downgrade on the
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 3: on the expenditure and bring us revenue into the department.
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 2: Okay, So so final, just clarifying question, just so people
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 2: really understand this process. Yeah, you guys do all this
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 2: work in the department, putting together your recommendations, your proposed changes,
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 2: but ultimately it comes down to this commission, right and
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 2: they can make amendments, they can take or leave your
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 2: recommendations and do as they see fit based on your
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 2: recommendations plus the input of the public. Ultimately, it comes
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 2: down to what happens at this meeting. Am I correct
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 2: on that?
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right.
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 3: I mean for the vast majority of regulations, So there's
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 3: you know, there's some things, for example, that are set legislatively,
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 3: so neither the Commission or the Department has the ability
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 3: to just create a new license or to increase license
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 3: prices or things like that. So some of those things
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 3: are set legislatively, and there are some things that are
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 3: delegated to the department, and one of them, for example,
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 3: is that our director of our department has some authority
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 3: to discount antlest licenses.
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 4: But for the most part, most of these rules.
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 3: That dates the equipment that you can use, limits on
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 3: ANTORLEST license purchases. These buck harvest restrictions like we've talked about,
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 3: are under the NRC or Commission authority and follows their
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 3: whole process for announcing the proposals, taking the input, holding
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 3: open public meetings, with the final votes, talent, and final
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 3: decisions made.
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 2: All right, Brent Well, I appreciate you taking the time
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 2: to walk us through this. I appreciate the work and
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 2: the time and attention that I know you and everybody
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 2: else at the Department has been putting into this effort
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 2: to try to get it right, to try to make
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 2: sure we're doing what's best for or deer heard and
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 2: the habitat and our hunting community and balancing all that.
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 2: I know that's no easy task. I can only imagine
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 2: it's been very challenging over the years and now especially
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 2: with all these changes and all the public inquiry that
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 2: comes with it. So thank you for that. Do you
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 2: want to give folks any final call to action or
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 2: send them to that website or anything in particular to
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 2: do after they listen to this, to either participate in
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 2: this or anything else up in the upcoming weeks and months.
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess I would say two things.
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 3: First of all, yeah, simple answer in terms of where
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 3: they can go to get more information, So Michigan dot
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 3: gov slash NRC or Natural Resources Commission? Is that Natural
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 3: Resource Commission website that I mentioned that I'll have information
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 3: on timing and meetings and topics and a bunch of
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 3: other information on what's upcoming. And then second, I guess
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 3: I would also just say more broadly, sometimes they have
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 3: people asking questions or pushing or pressing on do you
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 3: really believe this?
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 4: Do you really think that?
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 3: And then sometimes they'll apologize like I'm sorry, sorry for
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 3: giving a hard time, and I people don't need to apologize,
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 3: and as long as they're being respectful and open minded
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 3: in the process, it's really important that people speak up,
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 3: be engaged, and you know, take some ownership of the
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 3: responsibility we have as a conservation and hunting community to
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 3: try and do what's best for the resources.
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 4: There's no right or wrong answers in any of this.
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 3: There's not a single thing that we're going to do
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 3: that's going to be the absolute disaster, the absolute savior
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 3: of everything that we're contending with. We're really trying to
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 3: find a way forward again, not to look at just
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 3: what's going to happen over the next year or two,
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 3: but to build some changes into our regulations that we'll
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 3: have we think important impacts, you know, over the next
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 3: decade and even two to come. There'll be other tweaks
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 3: and other adjustments made along the way, but we're happy
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 3: to do the hard work needed and happy to try
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 3: and be as accessible as we can to the public
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 3: to have these dialogues around what we're trying really to
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 3: accomplish together.
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 2: Well, Brent, I will certainly be submitting my comments and participating,
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 2: and I will be shooting. I will do my very
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 2: best to shoot a pilot dose for you as well,
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 2: I'll say that. So, so, thanks for all the hard work, Brent,
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 2: and thanks for this chat.
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 4: You got.
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 2: All right, and that's going to do it for us today.
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 2: Thanks for joining me today. If you would like to
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 2: participate and share your perspectives and comments with the Michigan
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 2: Natural Resource Commission, like Brent mentioned, there is a meeting
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 2: on May thirteenth in Gaylord. Go to that url he
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 2: mentioned to get the exact location of that in the time,
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 2: or you can email your thoughts in as well. Let's,
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 2: you know, continue to be participants in this conservation process
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 2: and make sure that our voices and our thoughts and
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 2: hopes and perspectives are heard and included. So until next time,
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 2: thanks for being here, thanks for being a part of
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 2: this community, and stay wired to hunt,