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Laid Off: How to Bounce Back Better Than Ever with Steve Jaffe, author of The Layoff Journey · The Deciding Factor by Edward Jones

• speaker-0: I started to feel like I don't actually know how to not have a job. Yeah. And I've been working full time since like 10 days after I graduated from college. Like I just don't know. And I never thought of myself like I never identify as a workaholic necessarily, but I realized that my identity is so wrapped up in what I'm doing and sort of like where I'm working and feeling like I'm aligned with the cause and that kind of thing, to not have a cause to specifically align myself to, that felt very destabilizing. speaker-1: That's my friend Marian Johnson, and like countless others, she recently experienced a layoff. Welcome to The Deciding Factor, where we explore life's pivotal moments and the decisions we make when the stakes are high. I'm behavioral scientist Zarak Khan. In each episode of The Deciding Factor, we begin with one person who's faced a major crossroads, and then we speak with an expert about how we cope and make good decisions when it matters most. Today, we're talking about layoffs, not just the practical and financial impact of being let go, but what happens to us emotionally and how we move forward. Marian had spent seven years as a senior consultant at a boutique consulting firm. She was great at her job, but the firm was changing and she'd already started thinking about her next step. Then, one Friday afternoon, she was laid off. Marion, thanks so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. ⁓ this season we're focused on life-changing decisions and pivotal moments that people have to navigate. ⁓ one that is incredibly common. It feels like you kind of can't escape it in the news or in people's personal lives and their friend groups or happening to themselves, is navigating a layoff. And I think some people navigate these particularly well. ⁓ and other people struggle with it more. ⁓ it's something that you and I have talked about, you know, have something that you've gone through. somewhat recently and I thought did a fantastic job of navigating this. And your story I think could be helpful for other people and helped tee up sort of our conversation just about the skills that people can develop and use in navigating this kind of decision or moment in their life. ⁓ you were working as a senior consultant at a boutique consultancy. and at the time I recall like, you know, you and I were chatting over the course of maybe a year or 18 months or something like that of You know, there are things that you ⁓ like about it, there are successful things about it, but then there were things that you didn't like as much, maybe like, you know, thinking about what your next move should be, and then sort of unexpectedly get called in and find out, ⁓ you're you're being laid off. They have set up this meeting Friday afternoon on the calendar. What is happening this day? How does this feel? speaker-0: Going into it feeling a certain amount of dread. Yeah. And right at the top, they said, We don't want to keep you in suspense. ⁓ we have to let you go. My wife came into the office and I said, Well, it happened. And then I cried in that moment. And then I sort of like got back together. It wasn't until one of my closest friends at that job sent me a voice memo and she said, Like, Marion, I can't believe this. Like, I don't know what's going on. And I just like lost it, like was just sobbing that I was like, I This is one of my dear friends, like her son is like part of my life. Like I don't know when I'm gonna see them again. And I felt like I had let them down in some way. And that was something that I had to grapple with a lot. Like the feeling that I had let people down by losing this job. ⁓ which does it make any actual sense? I don't think so. Like nobody was necessarily depending on me. Like nobody was depending on me to keep this job, but it felt like I had let people down. The next day I remember going for a really long walk and was listening to the new Pilot the Creator album. And That like that walk and that music, I think, in particular just sort of like r really reminded me like you're actually free now. Like you are free from this sort of like identity that you had that was so tied to one place. So that was the prevailing feeling that I took for the next ⁓ several weeks, I would say. But there was a regression maybe where I started to feel like I don't actually know how to not have a job. Yeah. And I've been working full-time. since like ten days after I graduated from college. Like I just don't know and I never thought of myself like I never identify as a workaholic necessarily, but I realized that my identity is so wrapped up in what I'm doing and sort of like where I'm working and feeling like I'm aligned with the cause and that kind of thing. To not have a cause to specifically align myself to, that felt very destabilizing. And To also not be the breadwinner for my entire like my wife and I had been together for almost twenty years and not to brag, I've been making more than her the entire time. It's not a linear thing at all. Like there are some days where you feel like really confident and really just sort of like comfortable and you're like, I have my routine and the routine like feels a good enough amount of structure that I feel like myself again. And there are some days where it's just like the routine is not helping. I don't want to apply to jobs. I just wanna lie down on the floor and just like think about the fact that I lost a job. Like it just And I think too, I was also thinking about that, like you know that I ran for office five years ago. ⁓ and so there was also like a few days where I like, Am I just a loser? Like I've lost an election, I've lost a job, like is this just sort of like is this who I am? Like just person who loses. ⁓ and those were those were bad days. Like those were those were the toughest speaker-1: days. Yeah. I think a lot of people, the impulse is often, you know, I'm gonna immediately go and update my resume and start applying things on LinkedIn or what or whatever the case may be, right? But they kind of throw themselves into ⁓ like trying to reestablish some equilibrium. and it sounds like you had a more kind of thoughtful approach of how you use that time. speaker-0: I did get a very generous severance package. And so I felt like financially just like I could breathe a little bit. That took a lot of the pressure off. I have to credit my wife because she had for a long time been saying, like, we need to grow our emergency fund. A few months before I got laid off, we had started like a really intensive savings plan. And it was also just really helpful to have my wife as a like partner in this. Yeah. And she was the first person to sort of like Talk me through that conversation. I'm like, well, what are you looking for? And what are your like what do you need from a job? What do you not want anymore? What are you willing to sort of like be flexible about? And it turns out like I can't be flexible on the values at all. I can't be flexible on the environment either. ⁓ so pay, it turns out it's like I'm most flexible on that and most flexible on like needing to get, like needing to earn a certain amount of money. This was really lucky for me that I I found a new and started a new job in time for like my s last severance check to overlap with my first paycheck. ⁓ so I was not unemployed for a very long time. Like it was two and a half months, something like that. speaker-1: But when you look back on this, what are the things that you think you did right? speaker-0: Yeah. I think I think one of the most important things was that I kind of reclaimed my sense of self that I think I had lost over the past like over the last two years that I spent at that consulting firm, being able to get back in touch with like, well, this is who you are, this is what you value, and this is what you have the right to ask for. I think that helped a lot. I do think that the like figuring out my sense of self, like I'm really proud of the work that I did there and like I have to again give shout out to my therapist and my wife and like all of my loved ones that could reinforce that for me and could just sort of like give me the space I needed to figure out like who who am I? ⁓ I think that like that has been invaluable as I went through like several transitions in one year. ⁓ just sort of saying, like, well, things around me might change and like circumstances might change, but like I am still me and like I know what that means. Yeah. ⁓ speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: And yeah, that has allowed me to be a lot more flexible on pay and stuff like that. That like, ⁓ yeah, like this is just sort of like valuing the hours that I spend. It's not valuing me as a person. And like that has been very helpful. I think that also enabled me to be just a little bit more optimistic and have a sense of perspective that like again this isn't personal, even though like rejection feels terrible. And like and like the rejection of not hearing back ever, like that feels that feels terrible. But remembering, like, but that's not about me, because they don't know me and they don't care. And that's fine. Like this is a very anonymous and anonymizing process. And being able to remember that like it's not about you, like you are moving through this the best way that you can. You want to be proud of the way that you move through it. Like that matters a lot more than you know the number of rejections you get and that kind of thing. ⁓ so yeah, I feel just like proud of this. I was able to keep a healthy perspective. I had Started a Substack a few years ago and it had just started really taking off right before I got laid off. Just having a sort of like creative outlet was really, really helpful. And knowing that like if I'm not making momentum elsewhere like I am, I do feel like I've found a lane for myself. speaker-1: And so for somebody who's listening to this right now, who maybe is in a similar situation, what would you tell them? speaker-0: I would tell them that, like they need to remember who they are outside of this job. But the job was not giving them a sense of worth. The job was not giving them their value. Remembering that the work stuff is not personal. It's not about you. You are you. Like you are incredible. You are excellent. And the job has nothing to do with that. speaker-1: Joining me now is Steve Jaffe. Steve spent over two decades in advertising and marketing. You might remember an iconic ad campaign he worked on. What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. But like countless others in his field, he lost his job. In fact, he's been laid off four separate times, and he turned those experiences into this book, The Layoff Journey. The Layoff Journey isn't your typical how to search for a new job manual. Instead, it takes readers through the emotional journey that follows a job loss and offers a path to get to the other side. Welcome Steve. Tell me a little bit about sort of the genesis of this book. speaker-2: Thank you. Thanks for having me. Yeah, yeah. So my first layoff was in the spring of two thousand one. And I was living in San Francisco at the time. I had just gotten married. It was sort of the springtime of my life, literally and figuratively. ⁓ and I was laid off totally unexpectedly. It was the first the beginning of the first dot com bubble that was bursting, and it was a really devastating experience for me. In fact, it took me years to recover from. Fast forward, it's summer twenty twenty three, and now this is my fourth layoff, and I sail right through it. It's like water off a duck's back. And as I do some introspection and I'm wondering what's changed over these 22 years and four layoffs, I realized that I had learned a set of skills, a set of coping skills to manage what I identify as the stages of grief that come from a layoff. And it was in that understanding, ⁓ and sort of realization moment, ⁓ I found that I wanted to share that with these other people I was laid off with. Some people were very young and early in their career. ⁓ some people, this was their second layoff in the calendar year. ⁓ so I wanted to help them and give them the the wisdom that I had learned and gained. And it was in that realization I thought, you know, this would make a great book. And I'm happy to say now that after the book being out for a bit, ⁓ It's helped quite a few people. It is the first book that approaches the layoff experience from a grief standpoint. Yeah. So many other books and guidance that's out there assumes people just are ready to get right back in, write their resume, start interviewing, start networking and like pick up right where they left off. Yeah. And I think what this book helps normalize is the grief it comes from a layoff. That that This is not unlike other life experiences like a divorce or the death of a loved one, where you feel the grief, the pain, the anger, maybe depression. Yeah. ⁓ some of these really difficult emotions. And I think if anything, it helps people, it helps normalize that for people. Yeah. And it gives them the permission to say, yeah, this really hurts. I'm I'm really feeling a lot of pain right now. Yeah. And it it gives them the roadmap through that. speaker-1: I think not only there's you know, the books and the resources that you would see just if you're sort of Googling what do I do after a layoff, they're they're very tactical around getting the next job. Yeah. Which to some extent, intuitively you kind of think, Well, this makes sense. You lost this thing, you need to replace this thing and it looks the same. Yeah. ⁓ I think also people kind of just internally do this themselves, you know, at at the point of a layoff, they're like, I want to go and find the next thing. Right. And almost rush past what you're describing of processing what am actually feeling right now? In your experience, you know, why is it that people do that? speaker-2: Well, you know, the day you get laid off, you realize ⁓ this is my source of income and I need to replace this source of income pretty quickly. Yeah. Different people have different runways on how quickly they need to find another source of income. So you're driven by that financial motive. Yeah. I gotta get back to work, I gotta get a paycheck, which is real. Yeah. And normal and and that that's like absolutely right. but the the thing that people skip right past is I gotta process this before I can be effective in that job hunt. Yeah. If I go on a job interview right now carrying this anger and maybe depression, yeah, ⁓ it's gonna it's gonna manifest in the job interview in a way that ⁓ is probably gonna be detrimental. But if anything, experiencing some of the emotions and processing them in a healthy way. will help you when you are on that job interview. And like I said, they ask you, why do you want this job? Why should we hire you? Tell us why you left your last job. why were you laid off? If you're at a place of anger ⁓ and you haven't processed that that's going to manifest in how you answer that question. There's the idea that our identities are tied up in our job. So if I've lost my job, I no longer have the business card that says my title and where I work, who am I? Right. So I need to quickly find my identity in the next job. Yeah. And that's the really slippery slope that I spend a lot of time writing about is how our identities are tied up in our jobs. Yeah. And separating those out will give you the room to kind of process some of this grief in a way where you're not attaching your identity and then therefore your self esteem with I've lost my job. I've lost who I am. Who am I? What am I? You know. so those are those are some of the important things. speaker-1: Tell me about that identity journey specifically for you. speaker-2: Yeah. Yeah. Part of the reason why I think the first layoff that I had was so difficult for me to process was that I had tied everything up in that job. Yeah. I was at that time I was working at an ad agency on ⁓ a great ad campaign. I was very proud of the work, it was successful, we were winning awards, and ⁓ that was who I was, right? And I had you know, at that point you're working long hours, long days. You don't have the opportunity to invest in any kind of ⁓ personal hobbies or free time. You know, my my personal development was kind of delayed because everything was going into my job. So I really had nothing else going on. When I lost that job, I at that point I had kind of lost everything. Yeah. and that was the the the difficult thing to replace. And that's the thing that I talk a lot about is ⁓ Building your identity, building your belief and your values, ⁓ understanding who you are and and ⁓ what what makes you you outside of work. speaker-1: How you go about doing that, right? Because I think conceptually people probably understand, ⁓ I should have something that's separate from my work, that is, you know, how I identify or define myself. Right. But then going about that seems like where do I start? speaker-2: Yeah, you know, there's a there's a exercise in the book. Every chapter ends with an exercise. So it's a very practical guide. One of them that's my favorite, I think, is the the North Star exercise. The great thing about the North Star that that ⁓ makes it so important for sailors and navigation is that it never wavers. It's always in the same place. You can always find your way by looking at it. Yeah. And the same way that North Star it can serve in our personal lives where kind of When everything around you is completely falling apart and and ⁓ you have no bearing, the North Star can guide you with what are my personal beliefs, what are my values, what fulfills me, what brings me meaning and joy? ⁓ and finding that independent of what it says on your business card, ⁓ that makes you much more able when you go on a job interview and they ask you. Why do you want this job? If you've done that work, you can answer from a place of sincerity and say, I love this work. I love what I do. I love how it helps people, whatever it is. but finding that alignment with who you are and what you do, I think is is the key to being successful, but being successful then on the job hunt, yeah, ⁓ when you're getting those hard questions. speaker-1: What's your North Star now? speaker-2: My North Star now is help as many people as I can with this book. And ⁓ I'm I'm happy to say that I feel like I'm doing that. speaker-1: And and how would your career have been different if you had had an a North Star like this, maybe not exactly like tied to the book so specifically, but a North Star like this, say, you know, right before you had this first layoff? speaker-2: ⁓ gosh, I would have saved myself years of pain and heartache. ⁓ I I I don't know. I may have taken a different career path. Yeah. ⁓ I loved being in advertising and marketing, but ⁓ it wasn't personally fulfilling in a way that like gave my life meaning beyond ⁓ like my own my own self. but you know, with age comes wisdom and experience. So ⁓ I'm happy that W one of the things in the book is using layoffs as a point to pivot from speaker-1: Yeah. Well, it's interesting, you know, in the in the research that I've done on life changing decisions, when I look back, I ask people to reflect on, you know, a consequential decision and how do they feel about it. One of the kind of hypotheses that I've toyed around with is that folks would benefit from being more proactive in engaging with these life changing decisions. So sometimes you end up waiting until it's not really a decision anymore, right? Like you've experienced a layoff or it the situation that you're in is so miserable, even if you're not laid off or whatever the relationship you're in or the job that you're in that your motivation is now very, very high and almost any alternative starts to look like an attractive alternative. Yeah. I'm curious, one, to what extent you think that that might be true, the sort of proactive approach here. Yeah. And how might you have employed that if, you know, over the course of your career? Yeah. speaker-2: Well, I think we get comfortable being comfortable. Yeah. Right. So, life forces us, difficult life experiences force us to then change, face whatever thing that we might be avoiding. Yeah. Right. So yeah, I d I I agree with that hypothesis. And layoffs are one of those like crucibles that will change you. I I write that, you know, you you will come out of the layoff experience different than where you were before you experienced this. It's up to you to make that either a positive or a negative. speaker-1: I'm curious when you reflect back on the story that you heard from Marion. Yeah. What jumps out to you from that story? speaker-2: ⁓ my gosh. ⁓ she had a very high level of self awareness. A lot of the things that w we talk about, I talk about in the book, around, you know, understanding who you are, not giving that ⁓ definition of who you are to where you worked, to own that and to do that self discovery of your values and ⁓ what's important to you. She had done a lot of that work. Yeah. And I felt like She mentions she found another job within six months. Which in this job market, that is incredible. Yeah. That that may have been you know, finding another job within two weeks. Cause most job searches now are on the twelve month or longer cycle. So she landed an another job relatively short period of time. And I think the reason for that was her level of self-awareness and her level of not giving her identity to where she worked. Yeah. She already knew who she was and what she wanted to do. And that pivot for her into this other career path was very natural and somewhat seamless. Yeah. 'Cause she had done a lot of that work and a lot of that introspection. speaker-1: I think one of the things that she mentions as well is, you know, the she gives credit to her wife for ⁓ prompting them to start this kind of emergency fund. And you sort of referenced this. We talked about it a little bit of the financial pressure that people feel, right? You have to replace income really quickly. And I think the the guidance that I've often tried to give people is like take stock first of like what's your runway here. speaker-2: The first exercise at the end of chapter one is assess your financial situation. That's gonna determine, you know, ⁓ the the timeline that you have to do some of this work. And and, you know, if you have, hopefully you have a few months maybe, you know, you should look for a job as you know as soon as possible. Yeah. But processing this grief is also important. Yeah. Knowing that financial picture, knowing what's my severance package, what's my health care look like? Do I need to get Cobra? All of those things ⁓ will give you the peace of mind ⁓ and and the the perspective to say, okay, ⁓ I'm I'm in a difficult situation. Yeah. but financially, what what is my ⁓ what is my threshold here? speaker-1: I see lots of folks who engage with LinkedIn immediately after a layoff. But at a certain point, there are very diminishing returns to to this. and the encouragement that I often offer folks is, you know, find something that you enjoy doing or create something, you know, like a side project. You don't have to be paid for it or f at first or anything like that. But it will give you an opportunity to meet other people who are doing the thing that you are interested in. Yeah, ⁓ either in a professional ish context or or just as a side project. And that a different approach to networking, I think, can be more effective for people as they're looking for their next thing. How do you kind of guide people when they are shifting into their next thing around this balance of, you know, spending time sending on applications and on LinkedIn versus other things that they could be doing? speaker-2: think the most important thing right now for anybody that's looking for a job. ⁓ yes, applying to jobs is important. Applying to jobs cold on LinkedIn might be like some diminishing returns. Yeah. That's an uphill battle, especially where you've got now there's jobs where there's thousands of people applying. Yeah. ⁓ ATS is screening everybody out. So you're really not going to get a human to look at your resume and get it to the top. Networking is probably the best way to get a job. Mm-hmm. There's a a hidden job market of of jobs that never make it out onto any job board anywhere. Yeah. And the only way that you hear about them is through word of mouth. Yeah. You know somebody who knows somebody who says, ⁓ Zarak is looking for a job. He'd be great for this. And and that's how those connections get made. Yeah. So if you know, if you're spending ten hours a day on LinkedIn, I would say maybe spend two or three hours a day on LinkedIn, spend the rest of that time. Meeting people, trying to network, trying to make personal connections to tap into that h hidden job market. speaker-1: You've mentioned that processing, like pausing to process your grief and the emotions that you're feeling after a layoff are not just sort of helpful, but almost a necessary component to successfully getting your next job. Tell me a little bit more about that. speaker-2: Yeah, it I think it it gets to this idea of you want to heal before you hustle. Mm-hmm. Right. Before you get back out there and and you jump right back into replacing the job that you just lost. ⁓ take a minute, take a breath, do some inventory and and feel what you're feeling. Give yourself the permission to go through that process and give yourself the time to say, Am I on the right career path? Is the career path that I'm on ⁓ contracting? Are these layoffs not symptomatic of the company I was at, but rather the industry as a whole? Right. And if I try and jump right back in and pick up where I left off, am I just gonna get laid off again? Exactly. Where is the industry going? Where is business going? Where is AI gonna benefit? Where the jobs are growing? Yeah. Right. If you if you take a minute to look at your particular industry from that lens. Yeah. speaker-1: ⁓ Exactly. speaker-2: ⁓ you may not be as inclined to jump right back in and pick up where you left off. You may decide that some type of a pivot, whether great or small, is more appropriate for where you are at this place in your career. So you go through that process, take the time to heal. the book is a great guide through that and gives you great exercises. ⁓ and that way then you you have the perspective of, okay, ⁓ This is a path I want to pivot to. Maybe I need to go back and get some more education, reskill, upskill, ⁓ understand what are my transferable skills ⁓ and and put that out there in a way that ⁓ you'll be much more successful. speaker-1: One of the things that you see much ⁓ more frequently now are people posting on LinkedIn, kind of documenting their job loss or job search. ⁓ and I'm curious kind of your opinion on this. speaker-2: I don't think doing it on LinkedIn in that public way is helpful in the big picture or the long run. Yeah. If you are interviewing and a future employer goes and looks at your LinkedIn history and you're talking, you know, about maybe how desperate you are for a job or you're disparaging your former employer, that can look bad on you. Right. So ⁓ I I'm a big believer in do those things in private with friends, family, your network. absolutely reach out if you need help, if you if you if you are in any of these stages of grief, find a way to process them. I don't believe it's healthy to do it on a public forum like speaker-1: We heard this in Marion's story of you know, the the benefit of processing grief. And I'm curious what skills you encourage people to build as they are navigating this. speaker-2: Yeah, there's a metaphor that I really like. You know, ⁓ the the the rear view mirror on your car is much smaller than the windshield, right? And it's that ratio that we should use to look backward and look forward. Right. So, you know, ⁓ it's very easy in this period to ask, why me? What happened? What could have I have done differently? what may have I have done wrong, right? Those are all questions that are kind of backward looking, most of which you're never gonna get the answers to, and just put you on a hamster wheel of like negative thinking. Yeah. ⁓ if you pivot that to what's next, where do I go from here? You're looking forward ⁓ and you put all of that behind you and just leave it there. ⁓ that's a great way to kind of reframe this. speaker-1: Planning on like a twelve month job s I it's like a super it can be a super long cycle time to find the next thing. How do people maintain or build self confidence over the course of that search? speaker-2: Yeah, you know, you don't wanna tie your self-confidence to like how successful you may be in this job hunt. Yeah. Like don't turn this into like a scorecard on I got this many responses, I got this many interviews. Yeah. Define your success outside of the job hunt because the thing with a layoff is it's like compounding grief. You have the grief of the layoff, but now you have the grief of the job hunt, which is gonna be just as if not more difficult because you're gonna get ghosted, you're gonna spend all this time and energy applying for jobs. You may not ever hear back from all of these things. ⁓ so all the more reason why you want to kind of create this identity outside of all of that. Yeah. Find healthy outlets. Yeah. Feed your mind, body, and spirit in healthy ways. Find what brings you joy. Make sure that you're doing all of the kind of non-negotiables, you know. Getting good sleep, eating well, exercising, limiting alcohol intake. Alcohol's a depressant can really magnify that stage of grief. All of those things is just like, you know, money in the bank that you can use to fill up your tank. Yeah. ⁓ but you you want to try and avoid that scorecard, yeah. ⁓ and and ⁓ stay off that hamster wheel. speaker-1: this aspect of what feels like randomness at times to layoff. How do you rationalize that? speaker-2: You know, layoffs now are just a byproduct of the company's budget. It's a simple exercise of math, mergers, ⁓ and and and all of these other things that have nothing to do with your job performance. I've seen the employee of the year in January get laid off in July. So it's important to not attach any of these outside things or outside meaning to that experience. Yeah. ⁓ You're laid off out of no control that you have in this situation. speaker-1: I think you do a great job of normalizing this notion that layoffs are, you know, just a common occurrence and it's not something that you should feel shame or or guilt about. Yeah. And one of the ways that you do that in the book is by incorporating examples from very prominent, successful people. So folks like Steve Jobs, Spear Wang. Yeah. What is it that people can learn from those stories? speaker-2: Some people at the highest levels of business have gone through this. Vera Wang is a great story. You know, she was an Olympic figure skater and was successful. She didn't achieve the level of success that she wanted. she moved over to become an editor at Vogue. She wanted to ascend that ladder and was met with resistance. She pivoted and started making wedding dresses. ⁓ that became successful and grew into this fashion empire. But ⁓ if you look at that career arc, you're gonna see a lot of different pivots, a lot of different reinventions. ⁓ but somebody that didn't give up and believed in themselves and just kind of kept doubling down. speaker-1: So your final layoff gave you the nudge you needed to reinvent yourself. What's the message in that for all of us? speaker-2: This is an opportunity. ⁓ you you may have hated where you worked, and this could be a get out of jail free card. ⁓ your career path may be contracting, and this is an opportunity that you wouldn't have had to find a a new career path. ⁓ you may love what you do, and this is an opportunity to say, I absolutely love this career path. I want to double down and keep doing what I'm doing. That examination, if you get asked in a job interview, why do you want this job? And I say, I absolutely love what I do. That genuine ⁓ way of showing up, that will be reflected and you'll be successful. So ⁓ take it as an opportunity. A lot of people take a layoff as a roadblock, right? ⁓ I look at it now after four layoffs as a detour. It's it's a a opportunity maybe for growth, maybe for reinvention, maybe for a pivot. But ⁓ it's it's an opportunity and it's it's there for you to take it and to make the most of it. ⁓ the most important thing is to look forward and ask yourself, what's next? Where do I go from here? speaker-1: Courage and hope seem like great notes to end on, Steve. So thank you very much for joining us on the deciding fact. speaker-2: Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you. speaker-1: A layoff can be one of the most emotional moments we face in our working lives, but even when emotions are running high, we still have to make important decisions about our finances and our job search. As a behavioral scientist, here are three things that I would keep in mind. The first, don't let the layoff define you. After a layoff, it's natural to ask why it happened. And humans are particularly wired to think in narratives. In this case, the story that you construct around that matters. So try to separate what was outside of your control from the things that you can learn from or improve going forward. A layoff is just one plot twist in the long, long story of your life. It's not a judgment about your ability or your worth. The second is to clear your head. When your paycheck disappears, worries about bills and how long your money will last can take over your mind. Behavioral scientists call this effect of scarcity tunneling, and urgent problems can crowd out long-term thinking. So it's important to stabilize the immediate financial matters, things like severance, benefits, insurance, and how long your savings will last. But then make the time and the cognitive space for networking, retraining, and the creative thinking around planning your next move. And third, establish a new routine. A job provides structure to your day and it provides social connection. While you search for your next role, rebuild some of that structure with planned recurring time. For social contact, learning, exercise, and meaningful projects. I'm Zaraka Khan. Thanks for tuning into the Deciding Factor.