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Pepper Anne & The Story Of The Notorious Texas Swindler | The Christian Reeve Podcast #220 · The Christian Reeve Podcast

• 0:00
  Hello and welcome to another episode of Christian roof
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  podcast. Today's guest is a true crime
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  author, all the way from Texas and author of The Notorious
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  Texas. Swindler her name is Pepper Ann,
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  welcome to the show. How you doing?
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  Thank you. I'm doing good.
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  I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
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  Yeah, so happy you're here. I'm so happy you're here.
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  We're going to jump straight into it.
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  There's a lot to cover. So for my listeners I mean I
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  always jump straight into it anyway but There's okay, so to
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  break this down pepper wrote this book called The Notorious
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  Texas swindler. It's about a gentleman called
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  Bob Leech, who I understand you are related to as well and we'll
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  get to that later on. But basically he was the head of
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  an Infamous Gang called the Grayson County five.
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  I got that right. Yeah.
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  And there's a lot to this as I understand they're basically a
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  group of gentlemen who did a lot of Crimes together, they ended
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  up in jail. They got caught and then they
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  had this big Infamous Heist, which I've sort of broken down.
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  I've got various questions for you about this, but that's kind
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  of like the, the, the Crux of it.
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  And, of course, they were quite difficult to capture and
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  everything. And there's, there's just so
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  much to unpack with regards to just their interactions with
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  each other as well. So, I wanted to kind of split
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  this into discussing the crime itself and how it went.
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  Went down specifically the highest and then we'll talk
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  about, you know, your specific motivations for writing this
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  book and you in general as a person as my guest.
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  So I think what we'll do is we don't ya we'll jump straight
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  into the crimes so we'll go from the top basically.
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  Start with the capture and prosecution elements.
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  So around midnight on Monday, October 15th, 2001, Bob Leech.
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  And his accomplices Lynn gamma think, is, yeah.
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  So Linger on his other accomplices, surrendered.
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  And at the time had two hostages, now, this is
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  interesting for me because In this particular sort of
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  scenario, they had hostages it was just down to Gann and leech,
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  as I understand the rest of the gang had gone, you know, they've
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  gone, their separate ways and it's just him and Leach.
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  And as I understand a leech was originally sought the leader of
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  this gang. But then, I guess there was like
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  some trouble in Paradise. I don't know that argument.
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  To the ranks of who's the leader.
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  And as I understand that, in this particular scenario, they
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  were on different sides of the fence because leech, I guess
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  wanted to cut his losses and just get out of this scenario as
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  much as possible. Like you know he was treating as
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  a from what I've read was treating the hostages well and
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  Gant was kind of like the opposite of that and you know I
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  should paint a picture as well for everybody.
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  So this is during a firefight that lasted many Many hours with
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  place, which just them aside though, I couldn't quite believe
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  the how long it lasted is somewhere in the region of 8 to
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  10 hours or something, is that right?
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  It was eight hours. It was an eight-hour shootout.
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  Yeah, or standoff? Yeah.
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  But how much ammo did they have like oh my god.
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  Well so so what happened was some so Bob in the other four
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  fugitives when they escape the Grayson County Jail in Sherman
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  they took off and when they Were on the Run.
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  They would they were going to other individuals homes and they
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  were stealing stuff. They were stealing weapons and
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  stealing ammo from other people. So along the way they had
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  gathered up all of this you know ammo and all the guns and
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  everything. So when they got to the last
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  stop and and Bob and Gannett Were together and the other
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  three kind of split went separate directions.
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  Bob and Gant ended up in forsberg, which is where the hat
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  is. It's the house where they were
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  when they held them. Stand, firm, a hostage, that's
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  the married couple and then they just started, they just pulled
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  out, whatever, guns they had and they just started shooting but
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  they weren't doing it the whole time in the beginning when they
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  first started it was because law enforcement had pulled up.
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  They were following them because they spotted them, so they
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  followed them. And Bob was was driving the SUV,
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  so he tore off and he ended up Pulling into the driveway of in
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  cinemas home and he came to a quick stop and they got out and
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  they got their guns and started shooting and they were doing it
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  to keep them away. I guess keep law enforcement at
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  Bay and then every once in a while when it finally kind of
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  calm down and everything every once in awhile Gant would go
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  outside and shoot the guns law enforcement while blah blah.
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  Okay we're still here man. Like I needed to be reminded
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  they did. Yeah.
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  So they weren't shooting the whole time but right for, you
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  know, a majority of the time they were but it was it was, it
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  was scary, it was scary for everyone involved and the
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  enormous family were there. Shootout in that area and their
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  stories are amazing. I have their I have their
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  stories in the book and they're just, they're amazing.
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  I'm very close to that family and their there there.
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  Versions of the story. It's just, it's heart-wrenching
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  because we can only imagine your parents are being held hostage,
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  and you want to get to them, but you can't.
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  There are these Madmen holding them hostage, you know, what to
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  do, and then suddenly one of them is continually violent the
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  whole time and then another one decides to help them get out of
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  the house and flee, right? Meet you is the one who helps
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  them down. Yeah, I read in the police
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  report, the One of the police officers said everyone has a
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  little bit of good in them. And as I understand like, out of
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  the two of them, I think Leach, might have been a little bit
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  more aware of the scenario and like, what's like they probably
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  won't going to get out of this either alive or, you know, free
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  of the plate. Like it's kind of a lose-lose
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  kind of scenario. But then, this is kind of what I
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  wanted to understand more is where maybe both of their heads
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  were at Because not only are their Fates kind of sealed at
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  this point and they're in totally different head spaces
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  like psychologically, but like and we'll get to this later on
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  like the trials and everything. Those went separate directions
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  as well. But one thing I found really
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  interesting is The eventually leech actually shotguns that
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  right? You did he shot him in the
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  abdomen? And I do want to say the
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  individual that said that sweet, as we all have a little good in
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  us. That was actually.
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  Um, she was the one she was the wife.
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  And when they interviewed her, she was the one that said that.
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  Yeah, no, that's okay. That's all right, no worries.
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  But yeah, so it's very end. Of shootout, Vincent normal wear
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  out of the house and Gant had fallen asleep.
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  And then all of a sudden, he woke up, he was asleep on the
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  couch because he'd had all the whiskey.
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  And I mean, he passed out from all the liquor.
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  He consumed? Oh, a second, let's back up a
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  second. They're in the middle of a
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  shootout with the police for eight hours and gun is just
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  getting loaded and then just passes out.
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  What? Well, Bob was drinking too.
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  They both work because they had stolen One, Whiskey and all
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  kinds of alcohol if the previous home that they were at because
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  they had terrorized another family before they got to this
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  through this house. And so they have taken the woman
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  hostage. So before they took her several
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  counties over, they grabbed, they grabbed all the ammo, they
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  grab, you know, weapons, alcohol anything.
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  They could get their hands on and they put it in the SUV along
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  with the woman. And they took off.
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  So when they got in the house they had that alcohol and
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  they've been drinking it. They've been drinking while they
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  were on the Run. Anyways, the whole time.
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  I just don't understand this because like when they would the
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  Grayson County five like all together, they sound a lot more
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  organized. And of course, I understand that
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  when things break down, you don't have the benefit of maybe
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  having a group mentality, you know, think think it's less
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  structured and clearly out of leech and Again leech was much
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  more level-headed about the situation in comparison again,
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  which probably also explains why he was the leader of the gang
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  previously because it's like, I don't know.
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  Again seems quite impulsive by comparison and but for the life
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  of me, I can't really understand the psychology of this.
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  Like you're having a fight firefight with police.
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  Surely, the objective is to get out or Chef's.
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  It's time to put it bluntly, but like to die.
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  Trying like what? Like there has to be some sort
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  of plan there, even if it's a short put together, not very
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  good plan like that. I'm just stumped at that, like,
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  what was going through their heads?
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  Well, I maybe can shed some light on this.
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  So Bob ended up in the Grayson County Jail on charges of
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  kidnapping and his his girlfriend.
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  He was married and he had, he had a girlfriend at the time.
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  And, and she had said that he had assaulted her and so he
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  ended up in and he violated his parole.
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  So he and with all the cattle cons and everything going on.
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  So that's how he ended up in the Grayson County jail.
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  Once he got in there, he managed to convince these other inmates
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  to help break him out. And the reason he wanted to get
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  out is because he wanted to go and Revenge on the people who
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  had done him wrong. They were involved in the crimes
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  with it. Yeah.
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  And they got away with it and they're out still today
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  committee, really? Oh yeah.
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  Oh yeah. The ex-wife she is involved in
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  an adoption agency. A worldwide adoption agency, and
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  she oversees their finances. And she was overseeing the
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  finances of all the cause that she and Bob and all the others
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  were committing. So so that that's what led And
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  Bob to break out of the jail, he wanted to get out and he wanted
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  to go back. He actually went to confront his
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  ex-wife and she wouldn't answer the door and I put in the book,
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  there's proof that she was. He was there.
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  She knew it and she lied. So it's all in the book.
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  So that was why he wanted to break out because he wanted to
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  get even and say, hey, come on, you gotta that's up here and
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  went and when he went on the run with these, Individuals from the
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  jail. Then that's when it, that's when
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  things went a whole other direction and I don't know, as
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  far as a plan, he was the one who planned it all and he knew
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  what he wanted to do when he got out but it just didn't play in
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  his favor I guess. And so that's when he and all
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  the other inmates went into and that's when they ended up going
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  in the direction that they did. did and then he once he got into
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  involved, With a couple and the shootout and everything.
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  I think he had said that was that was it?
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  That's it. That's it, I'm done.
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  This is not what I wanted. And so that's when he started
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  working with the authorities and trying to release them to
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  normal, once he did, then he was trying to get away from Gant.
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  Now, Gant was passed out on the couch.
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  Like I was saying he was asleep on the couch and he woke up and
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  he wanted to know where Vincent and Irma were at.
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  Bob told him, he said, Need to go.
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  We need to leave. We need to walk out peacefully
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  and then that's when things took a turn, okay?
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  And that was when Bob pulled pulled the gun.
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  I don't know who pulled first. I don't know if Gant had his
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  gun. This, these are things, I'm just
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  not 100% sure, but Gant was very violent the whole time and make
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  no mistake about it. Bob was just as violent at the
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  previous residences and all the other places that they were Were
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  at Bob was involved in those crimes to but something about
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  Vinson and Irma, he just wasn't it.
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  I don't know. There was just something I
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  believe because I've met them, they remind me a lot of our
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  family and so I can't help. But wonder if maybe there was a,
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  some kind of a connection for him.
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  Maybe he just, you know, I don't know.
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  Maybe he viewed them as I don't know, damn family, I don't know.
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  No, I get what I get exactly what you're currently where
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  you're coming from. I mean, there's a couple of
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  things going through my head. I, first of all, I mean we've
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  certainly seen so many movies over the years of like similar
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  kind of Concepts where there's always like one or two people in
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  a given group who you know, have that sense of morality and
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  aren't really completely engaged with what's going on or
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  completely detached. And then of course you've got
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  think, Group mentality, obviously, when you're a part of
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  a group and you're, you know, committing crimes or even just
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  mucking around or something like that.
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  So, to put it like that, in the context of this for, you know
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  what I'm saying, like, people act differently in a group
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  versus on their own, right. Yeah.
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  And I wonder that maybe because it was just Leach.
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  And again, Leach was kind of thinking.
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  Okay, this is, as you said earlier, not how I plan things,
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  what's the best way of getting out of this scenario?
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  Whereas I feel like again, Gant was much more impulsive and kind
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  of like, no, screw you did it at a bit.
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  Yeah. And that was, that was something
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  actually. I wanted to ask you about before
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  was like how it came to be the shooting happened, but that
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  makes a lot more sense to me than just like randomly.
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  Like I was kind of like thinking, okay, if you got your
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  accomplice, you why would you shoot your?
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  Accomplice kind of thing. Like, there's got to be a reason
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  for that. But if, if it's like, leech,
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  trying to appeal to again and Ganz being unresponsive, and
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  they get violent, and it's like a mistake.
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  Nothing then that makes a lot more sense because it's like,
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  okay or maybe self-defense as well, that's an argument to.
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  But well yeah, I mean, I coming from a family perspective of
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  moms, he's a big guy, but he's well six foot tall and I mean,
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  he's a big fella and so I find it hard to believe that, Gant,
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  yeah, it was me it was very mean mentally and he was just a very
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  mean person, but I just can't help but think that Bob, Mom
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  could take care of himself if that makes sense.
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  I mean, he he's a big guy and she'll be if someone's coming at
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  you with a gun or well. Yeah, yeah.
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  And like I said, I was asleep on the couch and I'm not saying he
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  didn't do that, I just don't know if at the end because I
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  have several versions. I've interviewed law-enforcing
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  and nobody was in the home at the time except for Bob and
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  Gant. So I do want to make that clear.
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  We're Gant had a gun in vomit again.
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  Now I don't know who drew first, I really don't but all I know is
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  that Gap woke up and he wanted to know where they're at and and
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  his tone and everything and I don't know, depending on who you
• 16:37
  believe and Bob is a compulsive liar.
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  So anything I ask, I'd ask him. But I have to, I have to triple
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  check everything with other individuals, law enforcement
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  Witnesses, just everyone because I can't take him at his word,
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  but This is whatever reason, Bob, Bob pulled the gun, and
• 16:58
  shot him in the abdomen. And there's different theories
• 17:00
  as to why there's different theories.
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  You know, I don't know. This is something I want to ask
• 17:06
  you about as well, because your cousin's with Bob Leech.
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  Is that right? Yes, that's right.
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  And I did not know and he didn't know about me, neither one of us
• 17:17
  knew about the other way. Before I started writing.
• 17:19
  Yes, yeah. Wow.
• 17:21
  Okay. So you're not mad but previous
• 17:24
  to this This. Okay.
• 17:26
  Interesting-looking and but you've you've spoken to him
• 17:30
  directly that, right? Oh yes, yeah.
• 17:33
  So what happened was my grandpa. Riley has to weigh in, sorry for
• 17:37
  your loss 2006. Thank you.
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  Thank you so much. And when he passed away, that's
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  when I learned a little bit more about family history, first
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  cousins, that, you know, didn't didn't know about.
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  So my mom in Bob's dad are cousins because my grandpa.
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  It's my pal were brothers, and I didn't know about his grandpa
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  and he did know about mine. And so, once I learned the
• 18:02
  story, and I heard about Bob, and I read online about the
• 18:07
  cattle rustling crimes, if he was involved in with the other
• 18:11
  individuals that I exposed something, didn't add up.
• 18:14
  It just didn't make sense to me because, like I said, the
• 18:17
  individuals, he was involved with, or still out today
• 18:19
  committing crimes and I could not understand for the life of
• 18:23
  me, why he was the only one that It ended up behind bars.
• 18:26
  He should be behind bars but so should they so then I reached
• 18:30
  out to him, he's in prison and I said I'm your cousin.
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  I want to talk to you. I want to write this story and
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  then it went from there. That's how it happened.
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  How responsive was it? Was it?
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  What did he take this positively or was he bit cagey about it?
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  Like how did he feel about you writing this story and reaching
• 18:55
  out to him? He wanted me to write the story,
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  OK? He wanted me to write it because
• 19:00
  there have been several individuals who've tried.
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  Whatever reason they didn't finish, they fell it fell
• 19:06
  through, but I stayed with it and I think he knew because it
• 19:11
  was coming from a family angle, it was coming from, I'm told
• 19:14
  him. I told him at Pride, I'm going
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  to tell everything and he said, I want you to he didn't want me
• 19:19
  to know everything you did. He was embarrassed, he knew
• 19:23
  better. I mean, that's interesting.
• 19:26
  So he's got a sense of remorse though.
• 19:30
  Well, he does but I will say this, he is angry, he's very
• 19:35
  angry right now. I think once if there is ever
• 19:39
  any kind of Justice regarding everything, then maybe he can be
• 19:43
  a little more remorseful. If that makes sense.
• 19:46
  He's angry because his ex-wife like I said, was overseeing all
• 19:52
  the financial aspects of all the cons of they were running.
• 19:57
  And then She is out and about today, and still committing
• 20:02
  crimes working with children and churches.
• 20:05
  And so, we're all the other individuals, there's a big crime
• 20:09
  ring here and he's angry. He's told me that he said, I'm
• 20:13
  not the only one who's supposed to be in here, and I think he
• 20:17
  knew that the reason I wanted to write the stories because I
• 20:20
  wanted to pull all that out and expose it.
• 20:23
  And so there was a relief for him.
• 20:28
  I'm going to say something that might come across a little bit
• 20:31
  controversial, but there's a reason why I'm going to say so.
• 20:38
  A couple of things. Firstly, it's quite clear, you
• 20:42
  know that a lot has been pinned on him and Gant and maybe I'm
• 20:50
  throwing a theory out there from the perspective of the police
• 20:53
  force. It's kind of like, okay well we
• 20:54
  got the guys job done case closed, right.
• 20:58
  But there's a lot of things within this case that are pretty
• 21:03
  concerning and kind of make the law enforcement involved, look
• 21:07
  really bad. And this is one of the things I
• 21:09
  wanted to go back to. For example the prison break.
• 21:12
  So you know, We touched on it a little bit earlier but they were
• 21:17
  able to Jimmy the locks and get through the doors.
• 21:20
  They crawled through the ventilation system and tunneled
• 21:23
  their way through a dirt floor in the basement leaving.
• 21:26
  What? It up sheets and newspapers in
• 21:28
  their bunks. My question to you just on this
• 21:32
  is why do you think the security was so terrible at this jail?
• 21:36
  I realize it's not prison so it's different.
• 21:38
  I know there's a big difference but why was it so easy for them
• 21:42
  to get out? You know this isn't sure.
• 21:44
  At Redemption is not like 50s it.
• 21:46
  This is in the early 2000s we want did they not have any
• 21:50
  resources that will get us? How was it so easy?
• 21:54
  Okay, let me just say first off, this is a second type of broke
• 21:57
  out of jail. He broke out of another gel in
• 22:00
  the 80s when he broke out in the 80s, he Jimmy the locks and he,
• 22:05
  someone had brought in a little small blade for him and he had
• 22:10
  this really happened. I swear to God.
• 22:12
  It did. And he saw his way out.
• 22:14
  Out and he managed to get out. So he jimmied the lock.
• 22:17
  So that one when he was in the Grayson County Jail, what they
• 22:21
  did was they climb through the air duct system.
• 22:24
  They threw the Vets, you know, up through the ceiling, and they
• 22:28
  went that route and that's how they dug a tunnel that way.
• 22:35
  I have to say, I interviewed the individuals in Grayson County.
• 22:39
  I argued. Share of Gary.
• 22:41
  I interviewed all the da. I interviewed everyone.
• 22:46
  I am some of them on the SWAT team and I want to say they were
• 22:50
  amazing with me. Okay.
• 22:53
  I wanted to, I could just cry thinking about a they they
• 22:59
  weren't prepared for something like this.
• 23:02
  It's a small, it's a small town. I mean, They're not thinking
• 23:06
  that somebody's gonna Escape their jail.
• 23:10
  I mean, this is this is a this is a smaller Community.
• 23:15
  You're thinking we gotta we've got these guys lets you know,
• 23:20
  got a hold them, let him go to the process.
• 23:22
  Nobody, nobody thought that this what happened?
• 23:26
  The never crossed their mind if it had then they would have had
• 23:29
  better security. But there's always a first time
• 23:33
  that something happens that causes that this A reason for
• 23:36
  something to take place. And what I mean by that is if
• 23:40
  that happened to happen, who knows, they may still be
• 23:44
  operating the same way and they didn't know that.
• 23:47
  And I felt I don't, I just don't think they were prepared.
• 23:55
  All of them were very professional with me.
• 23:58
  In Grayson County. They were absolutely amazing.
• 24:03
  I think they did the best that they could.
• 24:05
  I'm proud of them. My hat goes off to him.
• 24:09
  They heard about the escape and I want you to know those
• 24:13
  officers. Those deputies everybody, the
• 24:16
  Rangers Troopers. everybody, you can imagine they were working
• 24:21
  around the clock to bring them in and they did and I just I
• 24:27
  don't think they were prepared for that.
• 24:30
  I know, they weren't nobody expected that you know come on.
• 24:35
  But because of Bob, and all of them, they do have security,
• 24:39
  they have everything in place, that is needed, so that won't
• 24:43
  happen again. It makes sense I think like
• 24:47
  obviously I have to ask just to kind of paint a picture of like
• 24:51
  what the scenario is and bring it back to what I was asking you
• 24:55
  before. That kind of changes the
• 24:59
  scenario of the or the situation as far as like the people that
• 25:04
  are still free. I mean maybe it's less a case of
• 25:07
  you know, police maybe not doing enough.
• 25:10
  Maybe it's a case of more like not having the resources to, you
• 25:15
  know, pursue these people because it's about.
• 25:17
  Yeah I mean if you don't have the resources don't have the
• 25:19
  means like walking you do. You know what I mean?
• 25:21
  Well, these individuals who are out walking around, have paid a
• 25:24
  lot of money to stay down. Okay, so there wasn't a serious
• 25:30
  investigation done on them. There just was not its people in
• 25:36
  high places who have managed to get away with their crimes and
• 25:42
  they still are doing it today. They've been involves live since
• 25:45
  the 80s and I want to explain this.
• 25:47
  So Bob got caught up in the 80s with a DPS state trooper, the
• 25:53
  trooper approached him and said, would you like to get into
• 25:55
  cattle rustling? I want you to do this because
• 25:58
  he'd heard the history of Bob. He heard that Bob was wonderful
• 26:01
  work in a row. And ranches.
• 26:02
  You knew what he was doing and he wanted the best.
• 26:05
  And so that's what he did. He got Bob under his wing, Bob
• 26:09
  is about 19 at the time, so he got involved with that Trooper.
• 26:14
  The trooper ended up losing his license, but that's about it, he
• 26:18
  was charged with tampering with a witness, which is a felony,
• 26:22
  but the judge adjudicated, the crime, and sentenced him, he
• 26:27
  received the sentencing of a misdemeanor, instead of a
• 26:29
  felony. And he spent minimal days and
• 26:33
  jail. He still out and about today,
• 26:36
  he's not in Bob's life. The people that paid Bob's bonds
• 26:40
  and Comanche County are the ones who have been in his life ever
• 26:45
  since and they're the ones who got Bob.
• 26:48
  Involve more with more crimes. Money laundering.
• 26:56
  Just many, many different things.
• 26:57
  Many different crimes. So when when they paid the bonds
• 27:05
  for Bob and then they had him running drugs, they had him
• 27:09
  doing all kinds of things. The individuals that got in
• 27:13
  trouble, alongside with Bob, they paid their way and they got
• 27:17
  out. They should have ended up going
• 27:18
  to prison. The fella it was involved in
• 27:22
  Bob's first escape from jail and Callahan County.
• 27:25
  He was the one who had brought in a saw blade for Bob.
• 27:32
  He should have gone to prison. But he didn't his charges were
• 27:37
  dropped and there was proof that he was involved and I have proof
• 27:41
  of all this stuff. See they thought that they had
• 27:44
  gotten rid of all this paperwork and I found it.
• 27:48
  Leave it to a family member to find what's needed.
• 27:54
  Try to help them. Write not trying to pretty Bob.
• 27:57
  I'm just trying to get some serious eyes on all of this to
• 28:01
  look and say, hey when you do, we need to take this through a
• 28:04
  sinking Her instead of what's going on here?
• 28:07
  Yeah, great. I mean, like, it's not fair that
• 28:09
  it's all pinned on like one or two people like if the and
• 28:12
  especially since they're still out and about and doing
• 28:14
  committing these crimes, and it's going to, it's kind of
• 28:16
  fascinating to me because, you know, like just on the side that
• 28:20
  I've been watching a lot of like classic gangster, movies lately,
• 28:22
  just, I love Classic Cinema, right?
• 28:25
  But the thing that always kind of strikes me is that these
• 28:27
  crimes and stuff and like they take place in a time where you
• 28:32
  could kind of get away with certain things you could do
• 28:34
  that. That it was a lot eat or say
• 28:36
  easier but like you know, people were more influenceable that,
• 28:39
  you know, there was ways of covering your tracks Etc, right?
• 28:44
  But times are different now you know things like forensics are
• 28:47
  different now and but the thing that's there is the same is that
• 28:53
  people are people. And if there's a will there's a
• 28:56
  way like it, you know, I mean we see it over and over again that
• 28:58
  people that absolutely should be in jail, high-profile people
• 29:02
  celebrities and somehow They're not, they're free, they're able
• 29:07
  to get, you know, get by the system and it's like, I guess
• 29:11
  it's the classic friends in high places situation, isn't it?
• 29:14
  So to say, for Bob, but like I guess he just didn't have the
• 29:17
  right friends or the right resources and then it just got
• 29:20
  pinned on him and then that's what can you do, really?
• 29:22
  And that scenario, I mean not to say he shouldn't be in prison
• 29:25
  for the crimes, but at the same time, it's like when you do,
• 29:29
  when you speak about Justice, Obviously, you want everyone to
• 29:34
  be accountable for that not just one that person taking the blame
• 29:37
  for everyone. Yeah, that's that does seem
• 29:39
  unfair like this. I just want to talk more about
• 29:42
  this DPS Trooper for example. Do you know if like the
• 29:47
  motivations of this trooper and why he decided to call Bob into
• 29:51
  this because, you know, is a young man and he's being coerced
• 29:55
  into this behavior. Is there any, you know, the
• 30:00
  reasoning behind that? Well, I tracked him back to a
• 30:04
  suffering from the 70s, the DPS state trooper and other law
• 30:08
  officials tied in and Comanche County.
• 30:11
  So the trooper was crooked from the store art and he found a
• 30:17
  chance to tell him. He had been stealing farming
• 30:21
  equipment from individuals in the area.
• 30:25
  And so, he had heard because he had met Bob's or Bob's father.
• 30:30
  Marvin. Marvin was the one who
• 30:32
  introduced table to the trooper. Yeah.
• 30:38
  And so the, the trooper caught wind that, hey, you can make
• 30:41
  some money with this Catalyst weight.
• 30:43
  And so I see. But yeah, so he was just looking
• 30:47
  for another way to make a quick buck and he was very the trooper
• 30:54
  which is very crooked. He was very crooked from the
• 30:57
  minute, I mean, from the word go, you know the theft ring that
• 31:04
  I had written about. There was all kinds of
• 31:07
  information these Individuals and law enforcement would, would
• 31:14
  load up they'd have a few guys who had records and they kind of
• 31:18
  depended on them as what they did, they loaded up the farming
• 31:22
  equipment, they hauled it off and they end up taking it as far
• 31:26
  to another country into Mexico and selling it.
• 31:30
  So it was never found. Always Mexico, isn't it?
• 31:33
  It's always Mexican. Susie gets out completely
• 31:55
  Well, here's a question for you. What if do you think Bob ever
• 31:58
  stood a chance of living, a crime-free life like, or was it
• 32:02
  inevitable for him? Let's say he didn't meet this
• 32:04
  steep state trooper or he decided against working with
• 32:08
  him. Like, is there any other Life
• 32:11
  for Bob or was this just inevitable?
• 32:15
  And value the time that I think Bob could have stepped away from
• 32:19
  the criminal life that I don't know if it would have been
• 32:21
  completely. I think he would have been
• 32:23
  involved in crimes, but I don't think it would have been to this
• 32:27
  extent when he ended up in prison after violating his
• 32:37
  probation from coming to County and ended up in the are
• 32:41
  individuals that paid his bonds from coming to County.
• 32:45
  They knew his ex-wife. And he met her and she pulled
• 32:50
  him back in to this lifestyle. I have I have letters were Bob,
• 32:57
  had written to family member, saying he wanted to get out of
• 33:01
  this lifestyle, he wanted to do something different.
• 33:04
  Now, you know, I don't know if he would have, if he wouldn't
• 33:08
  have been around her and all the rest of them, he would have had
• 33:13
  a chance and that's the one opportunity that I strongly
• 33:19
  believe in. So does the rest of our family,
• 33:21
  if he was not going to do it anymore, that would have been
• 33:24
  the chance. She got him out.
• 33:26
  She got him back involved and Do you think it's fair to say,
• 33:33
  maybe he was. I know how it sounds but like
• 33:36
  easily influenceable. Was it a love thing, you just
• 33:38
  hopelessly in love with her and just went along with it, or was
• 33:42
  there other motivations for him? I believe he fell in love with
• 33:46
  her. Yeah, yeah, he did.
• 33:48
  He was very easily swayed, you know, he was in a prison yet and
• 33:52
  talk to Lahey was. He gone through a divorce.
• 33:55
  He was married and this woman out of the blue just writes him.
• 33:59
  I mean, he's shown her picture by another inmate and this gal
• 34:03
  Center picture in and I hooked him and once, Once it got to
• 34:11
  that point, he couldn't couldn't get away, or didn't want to get
• 34:14
  away. I don't, you know, I don't know
• 34:15
  he, you know, but the thing is, mom, had committed crimes at
• 34:19
  such an early age. And so it's kind of like if he's
• 34:26
  if he's not going to get that lifestyle, he can't be anywhere
• 34:28
  around it and it was all around it.
• 34:31
  So I don't think he stood a chance of getting away even if
• 34:38
  We blame her. We don't like, we don't like her
• 34:42
  or them because of what they die, if it does.
• 34:44
  I think this is an important argument to make in the frame of
• 34:46
  this. Because like, while we are all
• 34:49
  accountable for our own individual actions, you know,
• 34:52
  not everyone is a strong-willed. You know, I will do this.
• 34:56
  I won't do that. Like, some of us are just not
• 34:59
  like that. And the way this kind of sounds
• 35:03
  is like, okay, this is a man who he kind of bounced from.
• 35:06
  Kiona crime, you know, never really know which way, you know,
• 35:10
  not to say he wasn't completely, you know, wasn't ever steering,
• 35:14
  his own ship, so to speak. But like, it does sound like,
• 35:18
  you know, things get presented to him.
• 35:20
  He thinks why not? Maybe, I don't have anything
• 35:22
  else going on. Now, here's a way to make money
• 35:25
  like, you know, keeping it simple, right?
• 35:27
  And in this scenario, it kind of does sound like this woman, just
• 35:31
  used him, like just picked out a guy, like I'll he'll be useful
• 35:35
  for this stuff. I want to run.
• 35:37
  Used him and then got rid of him when she needed to and she
• 35:42
  continues to do her thing and he's in prison and it kind of
• 35:46
  can't help but like the cynic in me kind of looks at that, like
• 35:49
  it's plan like it's, you know, it was planned and I haven't
• 35:54
  shared this with anyone else except for family.
• 35:56
  But so, I had worked with other private investigators in the
• 36:00
  past, it was not licensed, but it did it on my own discretion.
• 36:03
  And because of that experience, He gave me the knowledge of how
• 36:09
  to know how to dig and where to go and find this information.
• 36:14
  I happen to find when I was learning about her.
• 36:18
  She had been involved with other individuals who were
• 36:21
  incarcerated, And he'd marry one of them interested and it up
• 36:27
  back in prison, she got away from him.
• 36:31
  So yeah, we think it was planned.
• 36:35
  We think she was set by the end of Mitchell's that they pop
• 36:38
  spawns in Comanche County. Yeah, I think she was just a,
• 36:42
  just a pawn in a game and she allowed herself to be But but
• 36:47
  but but make no mistake about it, you know.
• 36:49
  Yeah, he was easily influenced and he committed those crimes.
• 36:52
  And by golly, I'm not trying to talk him.
• 36:57
  I'm not trying to make him look good or in any way, you know, he
• 37:02
  had, he had an opportunity to get away, but many have said, he
• 37:07
  could not get away from these people, they were so dangerous.
• 37:11
  They were so dangerous. So I don't think it mattered
• 37:14
  what he would have done, I don't think He really would have been
• 37:17
  able to live a crime-free life. And at this point I don't think
• 37:21
  he wants to because that's all. He knows.
• 37:25
  Well, that's another Factor, isn't it?
• 37:26
  Yeah, it's like if that's all you've known, you've been
• 37:29
  surrounded by that, then that's probably own.
• 37:32
  The only life you're ever going to realistically lead.
• 37:34
  I mean, you know, Bob was out now.
• 37:36
  For example, let's say got parole.
• 37:39
  What's he going to do? You know I mean it's very well
• 37:42
  known that like convicts find it very hard to do it's not
• 37:46
  impossible but you know if it's a sort of put it so crudely but
• 37:51
  if it's a difference between I don't know working.
• 37:56
  You know that Senator cleaning job was at over like a very like
• 38:00
  simple tasks like a restaurant. Something like that versus hey
• 38:04
  here's an opportunity to make a score set you up for a while to
• 38:07
  get into the it's you get you're probably gonna go for that.
• 38:10
  You're going to go for it. You know what you're good at the
• 38:12
  chance to make more money, you know.
• 38:15
  I agree. Yes.
• 38:16
  I'm so Bob is one of the best con men that I think anyone's
• 38:24
  ever come in contact with. I can read through his cons, I'm
• 38:27
  blown away when he talks and I'm like, how come other people
• 38:32
  don't see this. Wait what your well you know I
• 38:39
  don't I don't visit him anymore at the prison.
• 38:41
  I had my name taken off of its list and the reason I did is
• 38:44
  because there was an individual who I wanted him to remove any
• 38:49
  would not in this individual was tied in with the people involved
• 38:53
  in crimes with him from the 80s. And I didn't want to put myself
• 38:59
  or our family, anyone in Jeopardy.
• 39:01
  So I had to take my name off the list, but what I would go visit
• 39:04
  Bob before I could read his comments.
• 39:08
  You still try to con people in prison but outside, oh yeah, he
• 39:16
  was so angry. How to understand this?
• 39:19
  I can't stress it enough. He just I'm so angry at what
• 39:24
  these people have done to him. Meaning his ex why everybody
• 39:30
  used it. Yes yes.
• 39:33
  And and that's why I believe that's why he's still doing what
• 39:40
  he's doing. So he's kind of like driven by
• 39:43
  Revenge at this point will be fair to say.
• 39:46
  Yeah, yes. And I understand, I get it, you
• 39:50
  know? And and and as his family,
• 39:53
  that's why I took this on and other family members, we just
• 39:58
  want Justice because he deserves, he's done a lot and
• 40:03
  he's in there, but he deserves he deserves to heal.
• 40:07
  And that's what I'm trying to do as I'm trying to help him.
• 40:09
  You'll by bringing all of this out.
• 40:14
  I just want a serious investigation.
• 40:16
  I want these people like that, so my family member can go on
• 40:20
  and try to heal leave him alone. You mentioned the the that you
• 40:27
  you can see as cons you can understand like how his mind
• 40:30
  works. I'm interested.
• 40:32
  Like what do you think makes him a good con man?
• 40:35
  Like what what exactly is different with what he does
• 40:38
  versus other people Leslie? So he's so Charming in the way
• 40:47
  he speaks to people. He can make a bad story, sound.
• 40:53
  Wonderful. He is, as I said, he's a
• 40:57
  compulsive liar, so he knows how to really pour the butter on and
• 41:03
  if he hears this, he's going to get mad.
• 41:05
  But I don't really care. He really knows.
• 41:09
  He really knows how to get his side across and convince people.
• 41:14
  He's just he's just very charismatic.
• 41:19
  He appears to be sympathetic towards people, you know, if
• 41:24
  someone's having a bad day, he wants to know all about it.
• 41:28
  And then he wants to, you know, he just very charismatic.
• 41:32
  There are times I could just uh, need to slap him.
• 41:35
  I'm like, stop it. You need to quit doing this to
• 41:37
  people, because would you try it on you at this event?
• 41:43
  He knows better than to try it. On any of us on family, he knows
• 41:46
  better than that. But did he have a trial and you,
• 41:48
  and you Kind of realized in the middle, but all he's doing this.
• 41:51
  We're both at once on me and I put a stop to it.
• 41:54
  How did that stop? How did that happen?
• 41:58
  Well, I embarrassed him. Okay, call them out in front of
• 42:01
  everybody. The guards embarrassed him, I'm
• 42:06
  humiliated him, he knows better. So, what stood out for you?
• 42:10
  How did you sort of guess that? Like, what did you pick out?
• 42:14
  That was like that as is a Connie's try really.
• 42:16
  It wasn't really a con, I need Share this story with you.
• 42:20
  We were talking. This is really.
• 42:22
  So when we were talking rid of visit with another family member
• 42:28
  with us and he said, we were talking about music and he said
• 42:33
  we listen to Opera in here and I said no you don't listen do they
• 42:36
  don't live Play Opera in prison and he got mad and we got into
• 42:41
  an argument and the more he talked, the more he lied in the
• 42:45
  more I could tell and I just blew it.
• 42:47
  And I know that's not a Con. But that's just, I can read him.
• 42:53
  I can read him and there's another individual mr.
• 42:56
  Davis, he's in the book, he knows how to read bombs cons and
• 43:00
  lives because cons are lies. And that's why, you know, he's
• 43:06
  able to so easily pull that people because it's all he knows
• 43:11
  and they've been there was there was a time where he had said I
• 43:17
  need money for those, for my commissary.
• 43:20
  I said, no, you don't. I'll put money in your
• 43:22
  commissary would you don't need it for that.
• 43:25
  I don't call them on it and I just, you know, he he knows it
• 43:30
  but but I do want to say this like I said he's compulsive liar
• 43:34
  and he does it without even realizing it scary.
• 43:39
  Yeah, it just comes so easy to him so he'll say something and
• 43:42
  then he may not remember it later, they say a lot with
• 43:46
  compulsive liars that like they lie so much that they have
• 43:51
  trouble distinguishing the truth from their own lies.
• 43:54
  Do you think that's true with Bob?
• 43:56
  Do you think he's kind of like living in a world of a delusion?
• 44:00
  Yeah, because he's done it for so long.
• 44:03
  Like I said every every chance, That he has to con he does.
• 44:11
  And I think his motivation behind it is over, then judge.
• 44:17
  I really do. You mentioned idea of Saigon?
• 44:21
  No, that's okay. I just I I know that I just I
• 44:25
  know that because I know how angry he is.
• 44:27
  I just It's not right? But it is what it is, you know,
• 44:34
  why everyone's motivated by something, or something, you
• 44:38
  mentioned before, that, you'd work with private investigators.
• 44:41
  So, I'll kind of wanted to ask you, what would you say?
• 44:43
  Were the biggest lessons you learned from working?
• 44:46
  Alongside them? They were just wonderful.
• 44:52
  I learned that when you are trying to get information, you
• 44:56
  have to be open-minded. Do you have no idea what you're
• 44:59
  going to uncover? You got to be prepared for
• 45:01
  anything and everything, you know.
• 45:06
  You have to handle everything with care with ease because you
• 45:11
  don't, you don't know how people are going to respond to you, you
• 45:15
  know, just because someone wants help.
• 45:19
  And they want the facts. You have to be careful in how
• 45:24
  you present that information to them because information that
• 45:29
  you can find for people that is her fully can ruin your lives to
• 45:33
  devastate them. Just be careful when you're
• 45:37
  uncovering other people and their Dirty Deeds.
• 45:42
  I mean, it's simple as that, you know, you can destroy people's
• 45:46
  lives. I have learned how to look for
• 45:51
  information that people need to know, maybe to help uncover
• 45:56
  crimes or just whatever it is. And I love that.
• 45:59
  I've always had an interest in wanting to be a bounty hunter as
• 46:04
  of working with a pi Z out. But of course I didn't because,
• 46:07
  you know, I have family and I, I don't want to, I don't want to
• 46:12
  do something that, you know, if that, that would probably be
• 46:16
  perfect for Someone who didn't have a family that they were
• 46:19
  concerned about or whatever, but, you know, it's the
• 46:22
  adrenaline is the excitement of it all, you know, I get it,
• 46:27
  okay, during the course of working with these private
• 46:30
  investigators. What would you say?
• 46:32
  Were the most surprising, or shocking parts of working with
• 46:35
  them, was anything that just kind of caught you by surprise?
• 46:38
  Maybe. there was one time when I was working with a private
• 46:43
  investigator and they were we were on a case.
• 46:49
  Like I said, I wasn't licensed, I just kind of shadowed and
• 46:51
  follow. And they went to extremes to get
• 46:55
  those answers. My my thought is sometimes and
• 47:01
  everybody's different. Sometimes if you step away from
• 47:06
  something and come back, you can get the answers, then you don't
• 47:10
  always have to go full force ahead.
• 47:13
  You were always going to have another opportunity for
• 47:15
  something else. It may not be the same but
• 47:18
  that's something I learned is that some individuals believe in
• 47:23
  going full force No matter the condition and get the answers,
• 47:30
  some don't. And I'm more on the safer side
• 47:33
  where if there's something going on and I want answers, I'll come
• 47:37
  back to it but I don't want to put myself in any kind of
• 47:39
  Jeopardy. Of course, that was the one eye
• 47:42
  opening experience for me that it did shake me a little bit.
• 47:46
  I think it's part of why I didn't want to get my license.
• 47:50
  because, You know. You don't know what, you know.
• 47:58
  No again to be easy to find if I'm trying to get information,
• 48:02
  you know what I mean? I don't want people to track me.
• 48:06
  Does that make sense? I know I sound kind of shady,
• 48:09
  but no, I totally get it. You know, I was watching this
• 48:13
  movie Chinatown recently, classic movie from the 70s.
• 48:17
  So, for those who don't know, it's a private investigator,
• 48:20
  he's get sort of caught up in a particular crime and It's
• 48:27
  outside of what he normally does and it lit.
• 48:29
  It just ends up in catastrophe and it constantly other thing
• 48:32
  that I noticed speaking to your concerns.
• 48:35
  About the safety element is he's constantly finding himself in
• 48:39
  dangerous situations being friend, everything.
• 48:41
  And it's it goes back to what you were saying before about,
• 48:44
  you know, you're uncovering people's Dirty Deeds, their
• 48:46
  secrets, whatever people are going to protect that, they're
• 48:50
  going to protect what's close to them or try and protect the
• 48:52
  reputation or whatever the case may be.
• 48:55
  So if you're Working as a private investigator or bounty
• 48:58
  hunter, or whatever else. You got to expect.
• 49:01
  You're probably going to be involved in danger and as you
• 49:03
  mentioned before, like having a family stuff like that, that
• 49:05
  changes Maybe whether or not you, you go towards that
• 49:11
  particular life path. I would imagine a lot of people
• 49:13
  that get in that line of work, maybe even don't have a family
• 49:16
  or they've done. They put significant efforts in
• 49:19
  place to try and protect that fiercely but you know, you never
• 49:22
  really safe in that line of work, you know, you're really
• 49:25
  not and I had some family members.
• 49:28
  They were they wanted to hear. Oh my gosh, this is exciting
• 49:32
  time, right? And then there were others who
• 49:34
  said get out of it. There's a reason why people hide
• 49:39
  certain things. It's because they don't want
• 49:41
  everybody knowing things about them.
• 49:44
  He tells you know, that's why they give us.
• 49:49
  Yeah. Was it?
• 49:50
  They say knowledge is power, can be easily used against you.
• 49:54
  It's like I live a public life in the sense of like what I
• 49:57
  share online and stuff and what I do.
• 49:59
  But there's a lot, I keep close very close to my chest and no
• 50:03
  one will ever know because it's you should definitely do that.
• 50:05
  That's why they call it privately.
• 50:07
  If people don't tell everyone, this is a complete tangent by
• 50:14
  now. But the amount of people online
• 50:16
  I've seen who were very forthcoming and candid with
• 50:20
  their their lives online. And it backfired it was used
• 50:24
  against them. It's like knowing too much about
• 50:26
  a person will get, what is it? They call it airing your dirty
• 50:31
  laundry. It can be used against you and
• 50:33
  it will be used against you. And the same is true of like
• 50:37
  Careful who you trust guys because whoever you love,
• 50:40
  whoever you care about, you know, friends.
• 50:43
  Whatever that can become an enemy of yours things will can
• 50:47
  and will be used against you to be careful who you trust and
• 50:50
  what you say. It's not only that, you know, I
• 50:53
  remember, I don't know, people still do this.
• 50:55
  But I know when Facebook first came out or any of the social
• 50:59
  media people would post. I have friends who did this.
• 51:02
  I'm going to the grocery store. I'm going here.
• 51:05
  I'm going, oh my God. People still do that.
• 51:08
  There's people that still do that the chicken thing.
• 51:10
  Yeah, it's like I mean, you'll be like, especially in the
• 51:13
  states like, you're just inviting people to come attack
• 51:16
  you. Why on Earth would you tell
• 51:18
  lucky? I'm careful with that.
• 51:19
  Like, when it comes to like taking photos.
• 51:22
  So for instance, I never take photos of where I live.
• 51:25
  I never take photos, like I know that sounds obvious but like,
• 51:28
  even places close to it because it's, you know, you can do
• 51:32
  things like. Now, you can do image search and
• 51:36
  find exactly. The coordinates, where someone
• 51:38
  lives that people do it through things like geocaching and stuff
• 51:41
  online, where they're able to like isolate an image and
• 51:43
  roughly figure out where something is and it's like,
• 51:46
  that's terrifying. So you can be like if you're
• 51:49
  posting pictures like saying like this is where I'm at.
• 51:51
  It's like, you might as well just like be like, yeah,
• 51:54
  comments at me. It's like an invitation almost,
• 51:56
  I just raise my right? I agree.
• 51:59
  Yeah. And I'm I'm just blown away to
• 52:01
  people still do it. I mean, they're still doing that
• 52:04
  because 48 hours. And all this stuff with all
• 52:08
  these episodes and it's against thing.
• 52:11
  It's like, I had a friend and acting friend who recently moved
• 52:15
  to where I live. And I noticed in her videos,
• 52:20
  like she was posting roughly of where she where she lived like
• 52:24
  views and stuff like that. And I just messaged, as I
• 52:26
  listen, be careful like you will get people stalk, you get
• 52:30
  trouble and she was like, oh no, I'm being careful.
• 52:32
  I might far as like, I can see. For instance, the exterior of
• 52:36
  this building I could figure our out roughly where that is and I
• 52:40
  think she took it on board but like Da like stop.
• 52:45
  I'm so people that like come on guys.
• 52:50
  Oh god, let's bring it back to the crime.
• 52:53
  I still got look many questions to ask you but there's a few
• 52:55
  things I want to kind of iron out with regards to the
• 52:59
  prosecution of leech and Gann and also just some miscellaneous
• 53:04
  stuff related to it. So, One thing I find really
• 53:08
  interesting is the decision for all five men of the Grayson
• 53:13
  County five to go. Their separate ways with the
• 53:16
  exception of Gant and Lynch. Why did Gann and leech choose to
• 53:22
  stick together? And why did the others going to
• 53:25
  separate ways? Well, honestly, when they saw
• 53:29
  the answered up and a ended up at a ranch and Three.
• 53:37
  Let's see, two of them, two of them were tired.
• 53:40
  They were done and they were ready for it to be over with so
• 53:42
  they stayed behind and I think they were ready to Just
• 53:46
  Surrender. They were like, hey, it's over
• 53:47
  with. So the third one ended up taking
• 53:53
  off and he ended up going where he had family in a several
• 53:58
  counties over and I think he was eventually ready to give up.
• 54:04
  So I think I think it just kind of they were just tired.
• 54:07
  There was no Direction, Nobody leading them, they didn't know
• 54:09
  what to do. Bobby could try to get away from
• 54:12
  Dan. Let's pull up out for one
• 54:14
  second. So as I understand like Gant was
• 54:17
  the leader of This Crew, but then there's you just said that
• 54:19
  kind of contradicts it, there was no leadership in that moment
• 54:22
  so that what happens like did Leach kind of.
• 54:25
  Okay, I've got an Escape Plan guys, follow me the dirt.
• 54:28
  They do it and then now he's just not got any idea of where
• 54:32
  they should go next. Yeah, it was not the leader.
• 54:35
  No sir, the leader. Come here.
• 54:37
  Yeah. No, that's okay.
• 54:38
  So like I said, Bob's whole purpose of breaking out of jail,
• 54:43
  was because he wanted to get revenge on these people and none
• 54:47
  of them were home. They went to several houses and
• 54:50
  conveniently at 2:00 in the morning.
• 54:52
  All of these people were not home.
• 54:54
  They went to several houses. They knew that Bob was going to
• 54:58
  escape the jail. They were very fully aware of
• 55:02
  it. Yeah, tipped off.
• 55:05
  They were involved in it. They knew Bob was going to
• 55:08
  escape. How did they know he's going to
• 55:12
  skate? Bob's ex-wife had a niece who
• 55:17
  went to visit Bob and the jail and she helped break them out.
• 55:22
  She was telling them everything that was going on.
• 55:25
  Yeah, yeah. So what happened was they got
• 55:32
  that they were going to all these places and no one was
• 55:34
  home. And so what Bob was, I guess in
• 55:37
  his mind what he was wanting to do, couldn't be done because you
• 55:40
  can get revenge on these people. They wouldn't answer the door or
• 55:45
  they just weren't home. So they went off and then he was
• 55:49
  like, I said, he was with all of these other inmates and that's
• 55:55
  when they they tore off, they needed money, they needed this.
• 55:58
  They needed that. So, that's when they started,
• 56:00
  terrorizing everyone, they went to people's homes, they didn't
• 56:03
  know. So when they went to this Ranch
• 56:07
  and they took a woman hostage Bob and Grant ended up going
• 56:12
  together. Now I don't know the reasoning
• 56:14
  behind it, but I know at one point in And even the woman that
• 56:18
  they had kidnapped from that ranch, it was her Ranch.
• 56:21
  She had even stated in some of the statements that Bob was
• 56:25
  trying to get away from Gant because Gant was just the longer
• 56:30
  this true out. The more violent Gap was getting
• 56:33
  involved, won't get away from because he just didn't know how.
• 56:38
  so, They just they stayed together or when any way to get
• 56:42
  away from him. I guess.
• 56:43
  I don't know. I could do to season one thing.
• 56:46
  This interest in the police reports is that there's a
• 56:49
  feeling of months, the detectives that leech was
• 56:51
  obviously originally the leader but then at some point he like
• 56:55
  lost his leadership to gun. Can you speak to that?
• 56:58
  Did that happen? Any point it did.
• 57:01
  Yes. So somehow if the shootout, and
• 57:05
  it may have even been before the shootout when they hit.
• 57:09
  Kidnap. The other several people that
• 57:13
  were kidnapped in fact they had run into some Hunters they were
• 57:18
  young men and yeah and and they were trying to switch out
• 57:22
  Vehicles is what they were trying to do sebab, put up the
• 57:26
  hood of his truck because he was trying to get them to stop and
• 57:30
  they did and they ended up taking their truck, they switch
• 57:35
  vehicles on them is what they did, but to keep the hunters
• 57:39
  from going. Anywhere Bob had carried him and
• 57:42
  hogtied. Mmm, put him in the back of the
• 57:45
  truck and the back of the truck that they had swapped out with
• 57:47
  them. And then it seems like after
• 57:50
  that when they went to the next home.
• 57:52
  According to the witness, the woman that they had kidnapped
• 57:55
  from the ranch, the first witness, the first person
• 58:00
  somewhere there is, when Bob kind of lost control, its went
• 58:04
  Gap. Seemed to kind of take over And
• 58:08
  I don't I don't know. So yes it's you are right in
• 58:12
  saying that that Bob lost I guess the leadership role maybe
• 58:18
  yes. I mean again it's just for the
• 58:19
  detective said by I found interesting when I was going
• 58:22
  through all this research and looking at different pointers
• 58:25
  and there's more stuff I found for other research, that's like,
• 58:28
  just poses questions from like psychological perspective during
• 58:33
  your level. Why would they choose to do
• 58:34
  this? Why would they do this?
• 58:35
  Why would they do this? And Canada, which while Scandal
• 58:39
  each were apprehended in 2001. Their individual trials took
• 58:43
  several years before final convictions were made.
• 58:47
  Why do you think this process was so slow?
• 58:50
  Despite the overwhelming nature of their crimes and the severity
• 58:53
  of them and like a much evidence they had on them and everything.
• 58:59
  Well, the da in Bonham Texas. He had just come into that
• 59:06
  position where he was at, and they had had gaps trial pretty
• 59:11
  quick Bob's, they waited a while and it wasn't intentional.
• 59:15
  It was just an older case, they had to close them out.
• 59:18
  They had so many different cases that they were trying to get to
• 59:23
  the Previous da, that was there, had laughed, because I guess
• 59:30
  they've been there for so long. So a new DEA had stepped in and
• 59:34
  he wanted to close up the old cases.
• 59:36
  And so that's why they, that's why they did that.
• 59:41
  I just think it was just a backlog of so many.
• 59:45
  Isis and trials going on. I don't think it was
• 59:47
  intentional. I really don't.
• 59:49
  I think it just you know, sometimes when you get into the
• 59:52
  you know, the legal system and things they sometimes they just
• 59:55
  take a long time, you know, that's the vibe I get.
• 59:58
  I mean, yeah, I took it about the da situation as well.
• 1:00:01
  That is something that I read like it was basically passed one
• 1:00:04
  person to another and it's this like hate when things just
• 1:00:08
  become about admin and stuff. It's like oh no.
• 1:00:10
  Do that case. Okay, let's get that in.
• 1:00:12
  Like what? Like surely, it's shutting close
• 1:00:16
  situation, but but but and that's interesting.
• 1:00:20
  Actually, I know you say, it was just kind of like how it
• 1:00:23
  happened but it must have been out of the two of them.
• 1:00:25
  Like Gant was considered like more of an immediate threat then
• 1:00:28
  I guess. Perhaps you know, they were all
• 1:00:34
  they were all on the same page, I don't think one was anymore.
• 1:00:37
  So the other I think it depends on who you ask.
• 1:00:42
  Now, the law enforcement Fully aware that Bob helped and worked
• 1:00:47
  with them at the end to get the help that out.
• 1:00:50
  Right? But we have to remember, Bob was
• 1:00:54
  also the one that convinced all these inmates to break him out
• 1:00:58
  of the Grayson County jail. And if it hadn't been for his
• 1:01:01
  actions there, they would've ended up in a shootout so they
• 1:01:05
  weren't dealing with someone who was walking a straight narrow.
• 1:01:10
  They found someone who was willing to work with it.
• 1:01:14
  Them and pull an end of this and they had to take that.
• 1:01:17
  Now, I do want to say this Irma, the wife who was held hostage in
• 1:01:24
  my book, law enforcement saved them all.
• 1:01:28
  She was the heroine. She she had worked in jails
• 1:01:31
  before and so she knew how to talk to inmates and she knew how
• 1:01:37
  to talk about. She couldn't get Gantz
• 1:01:38
  attention. Nobody could cause dancer
• 1:01:40
  violin, he was so mean like she got the attention of Bob and I
• 1:01:45
  believe I believe she she was a huge part in all of that coming
• 1:01:51
  to an end because she was able to talk to him and get him to
• 1:01:54
  open up. And and I think that's part of
• 1:01:57
  why I started working with law enforcement decided to break it
• 1:02:01
  to him. During pre de trial, Discovery
• 1:02:05
  in 2006, neither, Gant, all the leech, wanted to face a Fannin
• 1:02:10
  County jury. Why do you think this is?
• 1:02:14
  I think because the crimes were so violent and Fannin County and
• 1:02:18
  bottom than want to go to Bob, didn't because he just knew it
• 1:02:23
  to be light Chung close to what he had done and he didn't want
• 1:02:28
  to go through that. Was it also may be like he
• 1:02:31
  didn't want to face maybe some of the because you mentioned it
• 1:02:34
  like it's a small County so he probably would have known a lot
• 1:02:37
  of people in the jury that would that be fair to say if I'd have
• 1:02:42
  been on the jury had a hung him, So I bet 100 percent of those
• 1:02:45
  people in there. Certainly would have knowing
• 1:02:47
  what he did the crimes he committed.
• 1:02:49
  Yeah, he didn't want to go through that humiliation.
• 1:02:53
  He don't want to go through that and I say that strongly, you
• 1:02:57
  know, I'm his family and I'm here with you and he knows that
• 1:03:03
  he didn't have any business doing what he did to those
• 1:03:05
  victims. He or Gant is the owner is the
• 1:03:10
  death penalty, still legal in this state.
• 1:03:14
  It is, he went about the death penalty, though.
• 1:03:16
  Why do you think that is? Well, I think charges when the
• 1:03:20
  stem from the death penalty, okay?
• 1:03:23
  But he just, you know, that the crimes were just so heinous. you
• 1:03:32
  know, it just should Gant has several life sentences which
• 1:03:38
  have stacked up to as much as 91 years.
• 1:03:41
  I always say it's on side that I always find this kind of, it's
• 1:03:44
  not funny, but at the same time, it kind of is because it's like
• 1:03:47
  they stack on top of them. And then people end up having
• 1:03:50
  for like serious, serious crimes.
• 1:03:52
  End up having like, oh, you have a 125 years sentence.
• 1:03:55
  And, and they actually bother to give them like a, you'll be out
• 1:03:58
  on this day and it's like, yeah, okay, they're not going to live
• 1:04:01
  that long, like, unless there's like a freak of science.
• 1:04:04
  It's that occurs this, not going to happen, but one thing I found
• 1:04:09
  that was interesting about this is despite the fact that he's
• 1:04:12
  got up to 90 years stacked against him, apparently, he's
• 1:04:17
  eligible to be considered for parole in 2031.
• 1:04:21
  What are your thoughts on this? I thought I couldn't believe
• 1:04:23
  this. This has got to be.
• 1:04:25
  I mean, maybe it's kind of one of those things where?
• 1:04:29
  Okay yeah he's eligible but there's no way whoever get it.
• 1:04:32
  But I mean there's a chance and What, why is he even being
• 1:04:36
  considered for this? I don't know, but I'm going to
• 1:04:40
  be one of the individuals writing letters to the parole
• 1:04:42
  board, telling them to leave him in there.
• 1:04:46
  I'm going to be part of one of those that because of what he
• 1:04:49
  did to the Foresters and all the other victims.
• 1:04:55
  I'm going to be one of those saying, do not let him out, you
• 1:04:59
  know, Bob was a habitual criminal.
• 1:05:01
  And so he has 14 life sentences and they're they're stacked and
• 1:05:06
  so he's never going to get out. He doesn't have a chance really
• 1:05:10
  getting out. Gant was also a criminal he had
• 1:05:16
  started. When he was a teenager, he lived
• 1:05:18
  in a some type of children's home for kids when they get in
• 1:05:23
  trouble. They're close to Sherman.
• 1:05:26
  So he was a repeat offender so I think with the crimes that were
• 1:05:30
  committed and then him being a repeat offender, I think that's
• 1:05:33
  why those sentences are so long and they should be he's is leech
• 1:05:39
  eligible for parole. I believe in 2034 2035 but I
• 1:05:46
  don't believe he's he won't, I just I just find it interesting
• 1:05:49
  because like their individual sentences are different in the
• 1:05:54
  way they're treated are slightly different.
• 1:05:55
  I mean, it's comforting to at least hear that.
• 1:05:58
  Okay. Like they're both eligible but
• 1:06:00
  they'll probably get, they won't get it.
• 1:06:02
  But it was interesting. I mean, I, for example, Bob
• 1:06:06
  received the same sentence again, but for security reasons,
• 1:06:09
  his plea, Was conducted from the Fannin County jail.
• 1:06:13
  And apparently, those concerns come from the FBI, which is kind
• 1:06:17
  of crazy to think. Well, I imagine it's because of
• 1:06:19
  what you were saying before about how there might be
• 1:06:23
  concerns if he was in in front of that jury.
• 1:06:26
  Obviously he had said that he didn't want to be in front of
• 1:06:28
  that jury, but well, there's a reason.
• 1:06:32
  The reason they move the trial into the jail is in in bottom is
• 1:06:39
  because they were prayed that bomb was going to stay because
• 1:06:42
  remember he had done it twice before and they were afraid that
• 1:06:46
  there was going to be somebody who's going to break it out
• 1:06:49
  while he was traveling from the prison in the in the bus to
• 1:06:55
  where the child was going to be held the DEA in Bonham had told
• 1:07:01
  me that there was an airplane and there was there was a
• 1:07:04
  helicopter that flew overhead over the bias that Bob was in to
• 1:07:10
  make sure that he wouldn't Escape.
• 1:07:11
  They had put a They put they put, I don't really put
• 1:07:18
  something over his head so he couldn't see.
• 1:07:20
  So he was blindfolded or maybe put something, he couldn't see
• 1:07:25
  where I was going. What he was doing.
• 1:07:27
  They were afraid, he was gonna break out.
• 1:07:29
  They have snipers on top of the roof tops there at the
• 1:07:31
  courthouse where they had the trial.
• 1:07:34
  Yeah, the da went into great detail with me.
• 1:07:37
  He said they have that. They shut the town down downtown
• 1:07:41
  on the Square because the Times were so heinous.
• 1:07:44
  They were afraid he would break out there afraid he would get
• 1:07:48
  loose and even Yin Jing is because of the kind of organized
• 1:07:52
  nature of these gentlemen. So like they very much
• 1:07:56
  anticipated that it probably would happen if there was even a
• 1:07:59
  slight window, which slight chance, there weren't worried
• 1:08:03
  about dance, escaping, I mean, or maybe the word, I don't know.
• 1:08:07
  But then we're more worried about Bob because of his history
• 1:08:12
  with the jail, not the Prisons jails.
• 1:08:15
  And so they didn't know they didn't want to risk him getting
• 1:08:17
  out. But I will say this, when he
• 1:08:21
  went into the jail and Bonham for the for the trial, for the
• 1:08:30
  na was just a few people in there and the DEA had told me,
• 1:08:34
  you know, Bob was he could tell he was ready for it to be over
• 1:08:40
  with when he didn't want to fight.
• 1:08:43
  He didn't have any more, he was tired, you know?
• 1:08:46
  He just he was exhausted. If that makes sense, he wasn't
• 1:08:53
  in there in his mind thinking I'm going to get out of here.
• 1:08:56
  I'm going to do wasn't thinking that I think he had just kind of
• 1:08:59
  given up. Thinking given up and I think
• 1:09:02
  when I reached out to him and I said okay here's what I want to
• 1:09:06
  do when I write the story, I think it gave them a little hope
• 1:09:10
  and I think we all need hope I believe that.
• 1:09:18
  Well, I understand that. So, that then, as I said, as you
• 1:09:21
  said, only the motivation now, the goal now is just find the
• 1:09:25
  rest of the assailants, really? And make sure they get convicted
• 1:09:29
  hopefully, I wanted to ask like how has your book kind of helped
• 1:09:36
  with the investigation of the crime and how have things
• 1:09:39
  progressed since its release? Well, nobody's done anything.
• 1:09:46
  I keep looking into things but nothing has happened so far.
• 1:09:49
  I don't know if it will You never know.
• 1:09:52
  You never know. I mean, it helps, it helps to be
• 1:09:54
  for things like this. Your coverage of things.
• 1:09:58
  Get people talking. You know, that's often what gets
• 1:10:00
  the ball rolling, isn't it? Because then people more people
• 1:10:02
  start paying attention to it, and that's something that kind
• 1:10:05
  of blew my mind. Actually, I'm hearing this story
• 1:10:07
  and I'm like, in my head, I'm like, this is a movie right
• 1:10:10
  here. And so I need to like,
• 1:10:11
  trivialize it in such a way, but like, the reality is, the bet,
• 1:10:15
  the best stories are always true stories.
• 1:10:17
  That's that's just how it is. And it's it fascinates me.
• 1:10:21
  A this whole story like this, the psychology behind it, the
• 1:10:25
  organization. How many elements there are two?
• 1:10:29
  This, I mean, you could talk about this all day, there's so
• 1:10:31
  much to unpack from it and it kind of blows my mind that more
• 1:10:35
  people don't know about it, but I think that probably will
• 1:10:38
  change to be honest. It's done.
• 1:10:41
  I hope it does. I hope you're right.
• 1:10:43
  You know, the thing is, I've had people say, you know, how do you
• 1:10:47
  feel? I mean, you know, because a lot
• 1:10:49
  of people sensationalize on Outlaws As they thank you.
• 1:10:52
  Oh hey. And I want I want to make sure
• 1:10:55
  we understand that nobody is trying to sensationalize on Bob
• 1:10:59
  Carol. We're trying to do is tell the
• 1:11:01
  story but I don't want us to forget those victims.
• 1:11:05
  His victims are amazing people and they've been through so much
• 1:11:10
  and their stories are just You would not believe how what
• 1:11:16
  they've been through and I think that's important for people to
• 1:11:19
  know that if I understand that people have been hurt.
• 1:11:25
  And they and they did, they deserve that piece.
• 1:11:27
  They deserve their story to be told but in a respectful way and
• 1:11:32
  it was like all manner, you know, my index is 23 pages long.
• 1:11:38
  I'm most proud of that out of the whole book, because that's
• 1:11:42
  not a proof. That's all it is.
• 1:11:45
  It's proof of what I say and those victims are part of that
• 1:11:49
  those people that have been victimized.
• 1:11:51
  I don't like calling them victims because they moved on.
• 1:11:55
  He hadn't, let it Define them. They just it was something that
• 1:11:58
  happened and they are amazing. People, it would make a great
• 1:12:02
  story but if anyone wants to make it a story I want it.
• 1:12:06
  Understood those people who were Mais, their story needs to be
• 1:12:10
  seriously heard. Yeah, I read into this.
• 1:12:15
  All I can say, I'm not going to mention it here but to anyone
• 1:12:17
  that's listening to the show. I would urge you to read into
• 1:12:23
  the Case Files, read into the story, but do so with caution,
• 1:12:30
  there's a lot of distressing upsetting stuff.
• 1:12:32
  Obviously, we've spoken a lot about the heinous nature of the
• 1:12:35
  crimes. That's all I'm willing to say
• 1:12:40
  right now. I think it's just prepare
• 1:12:43
  yourself. It's a lot.
• 1:12:46
  And as much as like, I am kind of like fascinated by this and I
• 1:12:48
  was excited about this and stuff, you know, I didn't get
• 1:12:51
  enjoy. Observe reading that it sounded
• 1:12:53
  horrific. It was obviously very concerning
• 1:12:56
  and I do feel for the victims of the crime and I feel like yeah.
• 1:13:01
  If if this is ever picked up as a story, that will need to be
• 1:13:09
  handled with a lot of care and respect, because the reality is,
• 1:13:14
  there were a lot of victims in this crime.
• 1:13:16
  It wasn't just like a group of guys going out and just kind of
• 1:13:20
  all hell breaks loose. It's a laugh like absolutely not
• 1:13:23
  some people's lives were affected bike forever because of
• 1:13:25
  this current these crimes so there's definitely something to
• 1:13:28
  be kept. I think in in in mind when we're
• 1:13:36
  approaching this the story. And also one thing I wanted to
• 1:13:40
  kind of ask you about is There's a couple of angles I want to
• 1:13:47
  discuss with you so I'd like to kind of know more about how this
• 1:13:52
  has affected your life. How being related to Bob, has
• 1:13:56
  affected your life, we spoke a little bit off-camera about this
• 1:13:58
  but I just wanted to kind of explore that a little bit
• 1:14:00
  because obviously earlier we spoke about the importance of,
• 1:14:04
  protecting one's self, identity being safe, you know, naturally
• 1:14:11
  you exposing certain things. Putting this story out there
• 1:14:15
  that puts you at risk. So I want to kind of know how
• 1:14:19
  has this affected your life. You know, to be honest with you,
• 1:14:23
  this has affected my life and a lot of positive ways.
• 1:14:27
  I'll scoop of meta a lot of amazing people and I have made
• 1:14:33
  lifetime friendships with people that I probably never would have
• 1:14:38
  before. I know what wouldn't have
• 1:14:40
  before. Yeah, it has been.
• 1:14:45
  It has been a very good positive thing for me.
• 1:14:49
  I have decided to write another book, not about About Bob.
• 1:14:53
  Maybe, if we can get a serious investigation on me later, but
• 1:14:57
  right now, I'm not there. There have been a few bumps in
• 1:15:04
  the road, but my family has been my biggest support system.
• 1:15:09
  My friends and family, they've encouraged me along the way.
• 1:15:12
  So and I have learned to be more.
• 1:15:16
  I was before, but more aware now and Something doesn't seem right
• 1:15:24
  if it's a little off. Probably is I wouldn't change
• 1:15:30
  this. If you know if somebody would
• 1:15:32
  have said if you could have done something else would you know?
• 1:15:36
  Because I feel very strong about the story, I feel very
• 1:15:39
  passionate about it. I did something nobody else has
• 1:15:43
  done. About this and I feel like it it
• 1:15:49
  will, it will eventually be seen.
• 1:15:52
  Maybe someday, I don't know. But I've at least told Bob's
• 1:15:55
  story. And to me that was important.
• 1:15:58
  I told Bob and our family's story and it deserves to be told
• 1:16:04
  nothing but good positive things from this.
• 1:16:06
  Yeah, speaking of which you've had to rewrite this story at
• 1:16:11
  least three times because the people involved in the crime
• 1:16:16
  hacked into your computer, yeah, you dealt with a lot of
• 1:16:19
  different issues in just getting this book done and created.
• 1:16:25
  What can you tell us about that? Well, I have had an editor who's
• 1:16:31
  been with me from the very beginning John.
• 1:16:33
  He is the phasing. He's a dear friend.
• 1:16:36
  And every time I had to rewrite it, he and other family members
• 1:16:39
  would say, okay, let me check and see if you sent me anything,
• 1:16:42
  because there's got to be something on record here.
• 1:16:44
  He didn't have any current stuff.
• 1:16:49
  Every time I wrote it, it was better than the one before.
• 1:16:53
  So maybe I mean it worked out I think the one thing that scared
• 1:16:58
  me the most rewriting it angered me at times because I think gosh
• 1:17:03
  can't, I don't want to do it anymore but it was the loosening
• 1:17:06
  of the lug nuts of our tires. Mine and family members tires
• 1:17:10
  have been loosened and I thought this is it.
• 1:17:13
  That's what kept me going. I thought you're doing it for a
• 1:17:17
  reason and so am I. So There were times when I had
• 1:17:25
  to, when I was going through that process, I think listen got
• 1:17:28
  to get out there and I kept going and it did and and the day
• 1:17:32
  that it finally did. I reached out to my assistant,
• 1:17:36
  Laura, my God, the ladies amazing and we send it to print
• 1:17:40
  and I told her, I said I'm done. And we were working around the
• 1:17:44
  clock to get it out there. We were trying to beat somebody
• 1:17:47
  else who had tried to steal story.
• 1:17:52
  And that individual who tried to steal it was tied in with the
• 1:17:54
  individuals I exposed and it didn't matter.
• 1:17:57
  It didn't matter what they were doing because what I had done
• 1:18:02
  was coming out, all my hard work was in g.i. people.
• 1:18:08
  It seemed like at the time it was just it was awful and think
• 1:18:12
  I could go on. But once it was out there I
• 1:18:14
  realized I did a really good job and I'm proud of myself.
• 1:18:18
  I think I can do another one, it took us through that.
• 1:18:23
  What's what can we expect with this?
• 1:18:25
  Is it follow-up to this story? Is it something completely
• 1:18:28
  different? Tell us about that?
• 1:18:30
  That's something completely different.
• 1:18:31
  I don't want to write about Mom again, unless there's anything
• 1:18:35
  that has changed. And any serious investigations,
• 1:18:38
  any updates because I'm not going to write about the same
• 1:18:41
  thing. Yeah, there are a few things
• 1:18:44
  that have been, I'm looking into their true crime.
• 1:18:47
  One of them is true crime and it's exciting.
• 1:18:50
  Its local close to home. It happens.
• 1:18:54
  Many many, many years ago, back in the 50s so it's a space
• 1:18:57
  that's been solved, but it's interesting and like I said,
• 1:19:02
  it's kind of a local story and if I can get the records, if
• 1:19:06
  that's a big thing. See if I can get the records
• 1:19:09
  from the courts and everything, all right.
• 1:19:11
  If I can't then I'll have to move on but That's my next one.
• 1:19:15
  I wish you the best of luck about if I hope it continues,
• 1:19:18
  man, sounds like, you're onto something here at this kind of
• 1:19:20
  like detective kind of like really like me, I must say like,
• 1:19:25
  I do love True Crime as a genre concept.
• 1:19:29
  I think it's fascinating for many of the reasons that we
• 1:19:33
  discussed in this show, you know, like the psychology behind
• 1:19:36
  things why people choose to because it's it's people at the
• 1:19:39
  end of the day, you're studying people and why people do things.
• 1:19:42
  And Where is their head out in a given time frame and you know a
• 1:19:48
  lot of the time sometimes it can be simple, sometimes it can be
• 1:19:50
  really complex you know it's so amazing.
• 1:19:54
  It really is. So I wish you the best of luck
• 1:19:57
  with that. Thank you.
• 1:19:59
  And as we draw things to a close for today, I have a few
• 1:20:02
  questions completely unrelated to our topics today by ask every
• 1:20:06
  guest this and I'd love to ask you.
• 1:20:09
  What's the best advice you've ever received?
• 1:20:13
  That's the most I've ever received.
• 1:20:19
  I received a lot of advice, there's been a lot of people
• 1:20:22
  around me. One of them is Keep going.
• 1:20:27
  Keep writing because you have a you have a talent.
• 1:20:32
  You just can't see it right now because of all the stresses in
• 1:20:36
  your life. Keep going that encouragement.
• 1:20:39
  Those encouraging words of the best advice I've received and
• 1:20:42
  I've got that. That that advice is come from.
• 1:20:46
  A lot of people, a lot of people who love me.
• 1:20:49
  Yeah. Thanks for sharing similar
• 1:20:54
  question, different angle. What's the biggest life lesson
• 1:20:58
  you've learned so far? But that's life lesson.
• 1:21:02
  I've learned so far is to not take anything for granted my
• 1:21:09
  family, my loved ones live every day to the fullest because we're
• 1:21:15
  not promised tomorrow. You know, you know, the truth.
• 1:21:19
  What you have? Yeah.
• 1:21:21
  Just be thankful for what It's been amazing.
• 1:21:26
  Thank you so much for sharing. Your story for giving us further
• 1:21:31
  insights into this story. I couldn't recommend enough.
• 1:21:34
  Everybody go out and get yourself a copy of the notorious
• 1:21:38
  Texas swindler by Pepper Ann. I think this is an incredible
• 1:21:42
  story that still has a lot to be told and can't wait for you to
• 1:21:47
  tell it and yeah, just I just wish you the very best of luck
• 1:21:51
  and thank you so much for being on the show.
• 1:21:53
  It's been an honor. Thank you.
• 1:21:55
  I've had so much fun coming on today.
• 1:21:58
  I'm really enjoyed myself. Thank, that's what I like to
• 1:22:00
  hear. And that that's it my neck
• 1:22:02
  because for me, it's it's it's it's huge.
• 1:22:05
  I love my guests. Have a good time too.
• 1:22:07
  I love doing this show. I love to looking into the into
• 1:22:12
  the research for this because I always do research on my guests
• 1:22:15
  regardless, but this obviously required me to do to go that
• 1:22:19
  extra step because it's like, you have to understand fully
• 1:22:23
  what to ask behalf. To understand why you are asking
• 1:22:26
  what you're asking and and obviously you know, because it
• 1:22:30
  would be very easy to be and just ask that the basics.
• 1:22:34
  But I like to really delve deep and try and get into take it
• 1:22:37
  that extra step and see where you can take it, you know, and I
• 1:22:40
  just loved the whole process. So, thank you so much and to the
• 1:22:47
  listeners of the Christian era podcast.
• 1:22:49
  I hope you enjoyed this show as much as I did, please go out of
• 1:22:53
  your way to check out pepper rounds work.
• 1:22:55
  Work. And please let me know who you'd
• 1:22:57
  like to see on the show next what you'd like to hear about
• 1:22:59
  next. And as always be safe, be well
• 1:23:04
  and I'll see you in the next one.