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The World of Non-Gregorian Calendars: What Day Is It, Really? · Ridiculous History

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  Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
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  Speaker 1: the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so
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  Speaker 1: much for tuning in. Let's hear for our super producer,
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  Speaker 1: mister Max Williams.
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  Speaker 2: Has a has a uh huh.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, zoom zoom zoom. That's mister Noel Brown. They call
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  Speaker 1: me Ben bowling around this neck of the global woods.
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  Speaker 2: Indeed they do. And boy, oh boy, do we have
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: a bit of a follow up for you today, also
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: from the mighty mental coffers of our research associate Exchurinair,
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  Speaker 2: Jeff the G Train Bartlet, Jeff the g Sauce G
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  Speaker 2: Love and Special Trained Sauce.
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  Speaker 1: What is it?
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  Speaker 2: Gene Factor Unit factor G is.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: What is what Jeff has has chosen as his hallowed.
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  Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I'm making a bit out of it.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Oh, it's fantastic. We love Gene Unit.
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: Wasn't that fifty cents crew?
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  Speaker 1: Gregorian? Yeah? G Unit is fifty cents crew of of old.
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  Speaker 2: Speaking of fifty cent have you seen the new Happy
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: Gilmour movie?
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: I have not.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: No, Yeah, it's some people are not super fond of it,
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: but it does have a pretty funny cameo from Eminem
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: who apparently introduced the world to fifty cent very well.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, and if you have tuned into our earlier episode
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  Speaker 1: this week, you know that we already had a very
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  Speaker 1: strange exploration of the origin of the current calendar. The
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  Speaker 1: Gregorian calendar. It's the one that everybody used, is for
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  Speaker 1: international coordination. So if it's the reason someone can say
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  Speaker 1: Wednesday in Kazakhstan and there still also be a Wednesday
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  Speaker 1: in July in Kazakhstan, and someone in the US can
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  Speaker 1: agree there is a July and there is a Wednesday.
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  Speaker 1: But as we alluded to, the Gregorian calendar, despite being
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  Speaker 1: the de facto world's calendar, is far from the only
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  Speaker 1: calendar still in use. People are going to use the
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  Speaker 1: Gregorian calendar for all kinds of things, but then for
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  Speaker 1: all sorts of other reasons they may use other calendars.
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  Speaker 1: And some of the most famous and well known alternate
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  Speaker 1: calendars we could call them, come from religious beliefs. Maybe
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  Speaker 1: we start with the Hebrew calendar.
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  Speaker 2: We must. Both the Gregorian and the Hebrew calendar are
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  Speaker 2: used in surprise, surprise, Israel, but secular activities and schedulings
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  Speaker 2: are measured using the Gregorian calendar.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so this would be like your school holidays, your
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  Speaker 1: business meetings, a lot of birthday celebrations, Grigorian calendar stuff. Festivals, however,
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  Speaker 1: are determined by the Hebrew calendar, and there's usually going
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  Speaker 1: to be a Jewish holiday every month in that calendar.
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  Speaker 1: This calendar also determines the Torah portion of each Shabbat.
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  Speaker 1: In addition, it's used to plan memorial services when a
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  Speaker 1: loved one passes. The Hebrew calendar is heavily influenced by
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  Speaker 1: the Jewish exile in Babylon in the sixth century BCE.
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  Speaker 2: And just out of my own curiosity, I just want
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  Speaker 2: to clarify that a Torah portion just refers to the
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  Speaker 2: readings that are selected for those particular chabots.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, absolutely so. According to the Bible, there were
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  Speaker 1: ten months of thirty days each before this exile. There
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  Speaker 1: are only four months in the Bible a Ev which
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  Speaker 1: means spring, Zev, Ethane, and.
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  Speaker 2: Bull, which are like these are seasons. We still have these,
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  Speaker 2: We just refer to them as seasons rather than months.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, we know that calendar days in the Gregorian system
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  Speaker 1: are measured differently than calendar days in the Hebrew system.
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  Speaker 2: Correct. According to the Hebrew calendar sunsets starts the day.
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  Speaker 2: We talked a little bit about this in the previous episode.
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  Speaker 2: So soon as the sun sets on Friday evening, Shabat
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  Speaker 2: begins and as soon as the sunsets Shabat ends.
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  Speaker 1: And the Jewish calendar has its own system of months,
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  Speaker 1: we don't need to list them all for you because
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  Speaker 1: we will get in over our heads very quickly. We
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  Speaker 1: say that with deep respect. So we do have the
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  Speaker 1: entirety of the breakdown and the list and how it
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  Speaker 1: coordinates with the Gregor calendar, how you'd interpret it through
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  Speaker 1: the Gregorian system. But the thing you need to know
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  Speaker 1: is that these are different calendars. The people who practice
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  Speaker 1: both of these calendars do constantly have to compare and
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  Speaker 1: contrast them. The length of the months, for instance, chez
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  Speaker 1: Vaon and Kislev, they're determined by these pretty sophisticated calculations
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  Speaker 1: that are all meant to make sure Rashashana falls.
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  Speaker 2: On the right day. Yeah, so they're using those high
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  Speaker 2: holy days as benchmarks to hit. The Jewish calendar is
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  Speaker 2: a lunar calendar, with each month beginning with the new moon.
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  Speaker 2: And the problem, however, with you holding a strictly lunar
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  Speaker 2: calendar is that there are approximately twelve point four lunar
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  Speaker 2: months in each solar year. So a twelve month cycle
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  Speaker 2: or twelve month calendar is just a little bit too short,
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  Speaker 2: and that's when you start really getting those hiccups in
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  Speaker 2: offsets of time.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, we're in a real Goldilocks parable. So, as he said,
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  Speaker 1: an old twelvemonth calendar a little too short, thirteen month
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  Speaker 1: calendar a little too long. And if we hold to
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  Speaker 1: either of those calendars absolutely, then the year will drift
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  Speaker 1: in relation to the season. So it's the same problem
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  Speaker 1: we saw in the Julian calendar. So for example, if
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  Speaker 1: we're only using a twelvemonth lunar calendar, the Hebrew calendar's
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  Speaker 1: month of Nissan, which is supposed to occur in the spring,
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  Speaker 1: would eventually fall back to the winter, the fall, and
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  Speaker 1: then the summer. And this is a huge deal. It's
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  Speaker 1: something you want to avoid because most holidays and festivals
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  Speaker 1: have traditionally been tied to the seasons as well as
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  Speaker 1: to the dates during which they're celebrated. So if we
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  Speaker 1: go to the fourth century, we meet a guy named
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  Speaker 1: I Lelle the second who said he was going to
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  Speaker 1: fix it.
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  Speaker 2: Yep, and he created a remedied a Jewish calendar in
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  Speaker 2: which the month of Adar is repeated every third, sixth, eighth, eleventh, fourteenth, seventeenth,
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  Speaker 2: and nineteenth year in a nineteen year cycle. These are
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  Speaker 2: just words that I'm saying to you in order for
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  Speaker 2: Passover to always occur during the month of Nissan, while
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  Speaker 2: the Jewish New Year happens during the month of Tisstree.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, did you hear me? Under my breath? They say,
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  Speaker 1: here we go.
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  Speaker 2: Because we're here, We're there.
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  Speaker 1: Someone said what about the twelfth and they were hellled
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  Speaker 1: the second and said get him out of here.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, this does not sound like a fix to me.
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  Speaker 1: That sounds absurd, But you nailed it absolutely when you said, hey,
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  Speaker 1: this is because of the purpose of the calendar. All
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  Speaker 1: these fixes are to ensure the correct commemoration celebration of
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  Speaker 1: these holy days. Also, so that's why we have a blend.
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  Speaker 1: And I love a blend.
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  Speaker 2: Love a blend. No, No one more than Ben loves
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  Speaker 2: a blend. No, what's your what's your favorite fabric blend?
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  Speaker 2: I'm like a rayon cotton kind of guy myself.
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  Speaker 1: I like that. I like a rayon cotton. Gosh, I
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  Speaker 1: don't know, you're asking someone with synaesthesia. That's gonna take forever.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, okay, get back to us.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, okay, let's get back to the calendar. So
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  Speaker 1: there's also a different kind of origin point or starting
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  Speaker 1: point for this calendar. The year number on the Hebrew
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  Speaker 1: calendar represents the number of years since the creation of humanity,
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  Speaker 1: and that is calculated by adding up the ages of
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  Speaker 1: people in the Bible all the way back to the
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  Speaker 1: time of creation.
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  Speaker 2: Stop it. That's who it is that talk about arbitrary.
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  Speaker 1: Well, it depends on how solid the calculations are and
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  Speaker 1: how literally or figuratively we interpret the ages of people
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  Speaker 1: in the Bible, you know what I mean.
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  Speaker 2: So that we're talking about the ages of humans represented
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  Speaker 2: in the Bible, the number of years they're meant to
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  Speaker 2: have been, that just seems so odd to choose that metric.
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  Speaker 2: But I guess you got to choose something. Isn't that
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  Speaker 2: kind of what it amounts to?
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  Speaker 1: You do have to choose something. Yeah, if you want
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  Speaker 1: an origin point, and you also have to figure out
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  Speaker 1: how much importance and trust you place in this religious text,
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  Speaker 1: you know what I mean? This doesn't necessarily mean the
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  Speaker 1: universe overall has only existed for five seven hundred years
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  Speaker 1: in change. Many people who practice Judaism, including Orthodox Jews,
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  Speaker 1: will readily acknowledge that the first six days of creation
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  Speaker 1: are not necessarily twenty four hour days.
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  Speaker 2: He was still figuring it out.
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  Speaker 1: There were still yet, they were still in the ideation brainstorming.
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  Speaker 2: Phase, spitballing.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, the argument here does seem pretty logical. It's the
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  Speaker 1: idea that before the sun was created on the fourth
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  Speaker 1: wish Wish Day, twenty four hour day as a concept
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  Speaker 1: would be meaningless.
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  Speaker 2: That is very true.
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  Speaker 1: Ben right, that's not all right idea, But I the lot.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, God, God was a smart fellow. So
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  Speaker 2: let's move on to the Hindu calendar, the Indian calendar
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  Speaker 2: that operates in three major forms, all in parallel, and
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  Speaker 2: that's apart from the Islamic calendar, which is used by
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  Speaker 2: Indian Muslims. So the Gregorian calendar is the default calendar
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  Speaker 2: again for non religious purposes. However, the d national calendar
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  Speaker 2: is used by the government. It seemed problematic if you're
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  Speaker 2: trying to sink things up with the rest of the
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  Speaker 2: world and several Hindu calendars as well.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly so. Again we see this hybrid approach for
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  Speaker 1: people on the ground. If you have a zoom call
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  Speaker 1: for your business, you're scheduling that with a Gregorian calendar.
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  Speaker 1: If you have a zoom call for government purposes, it's
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  Speaker 1: on the Indian National calendar, and which.
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  Speaker 2: To be clear, isn't the same as the Gregorian calendar,
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  Speaker 2: which sure was a misreading. Okay, yeah, different things.
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  Speaker 1: And if you are a celebrating religious holiday, you would
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  Speaker 1: use a Hindu calendar. The Hindu calendar, as we understand
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  Speaker 1: it was developed in antiquity by various scholars on the
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  Speaker 1: Indian subcontinent, so multiple people contributed to this over time.
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  Speaker 1: We know the earliest mention of this reckoning of time
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  Speaker 1: can be found in the Veda, which date back as
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  Speaker 1: far as twelve hundred BCE, So it's.
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  Speaker 2: They've been very important religious text.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yes, absolutely, they've been workshopping this for quite
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  Speaker 1: a while. And just like other calendars, this system is
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  Speaker 1: based on the motion of the moon.
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  Speaker 2: Correct, the lunar year is made up of three hundred
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  Speaker 2: and fifty four days. That's compared to three hundred and
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  Speaker 2: sixty five and a quarter days in the Gregorian calendar,
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  Speaker 2: which a kind of every time we say it's them ridiculous,
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  Speaker 2: which is of course based on the solar system, and
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  Speaker 2: that gap increases to a month over a period of
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  Speaker 2: three years. So for that very reason, the Hindu lunar
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  Speaker 2: calendar has an extra month similar to the Jewish calendar
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  Speaker 2: every three years called adik Adik. During that month, very
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  Speaker 2: important religious events and going z ons like weddings are
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  Speaker 2: should be avoided.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and think about that too practical terms, Right,
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  Speaker 1: how are you going to celebrate your first few wedding
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  Speaker 1: anniversaries when the month you were married in doesn't exist?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a tricky one.
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  Speaker 1: It's a tough one, right, More vibe based.
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  Speaker 2: There we go.
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  Speaker 1: It also shows us an interesting difference in approach. Whereas
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  Speaker 1: Western clindrical systems tried to minimize discrepancies over time, you
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  Speaker 1: could argue the Hindu lunar calendar accelerated the pattern of
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  Speaker 1: discrepancy by building in a more frequent adjustment period. So
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  Speaker 1: we're not saying one's better than the other. We're just
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  Speaker 1: saying they never say that, right, They're approaching the same
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  Speaker 1: concern through very different ways. And the Hindu calendar system,
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  Speaker 1: by the way, folks, is so much more complex would
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  Speaker 1: be the right word than the Western calendar.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true, and this could be considered a feature,
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  Speaker 2: not a bug. It offers a very precise, multi dimensional
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  Speaker 2: approach to the structuring of time, and it combines a
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  Speaker 2: lot of different layers of information, including lunar days, solar days,
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  Speaker 2: lunar months, solar months, and the movement of the Sun
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  Speaker 2: and moon in relation to other celestial bodies, as well
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  Speaker 2: as other spans of time that are defined by astronomy.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, they said, we're gonna take everything into account, whereas
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  Speaker 1: the humble Western calendar is built around two primary units
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  Speaker 1: of time, solar days and solar years.
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  Speaker 2: Bit of a dummy calendar compared, it's.
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  Speaker 1: A bit of a passage of the heavens for dummies. Yes,
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  Speaker 1: to complicate things a little bit more. If you guys
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  Speaker 1: heard about If you guys are just learning about this
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  Speaker 1: and you're saying, hey, I wish this was more confusing.
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  Speaker 1: There's also not one single Hindu calendar, which is why
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  Speaker 1: you've been hearing us refer to it in the plural.
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  Speaker 1: Sometimes each country and region uses its own variant and
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  Speaker 1: interpretation of this ancient system. The Indian national calendar we
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  Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, was standardized since nineteen fifty seven, also known
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  Speaker 1: as the Sokka calendar, and it represents only one of
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  Speaker 1: the many variations of the Hindu calendar. So again, you
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  Speaker 1: could be a practicing Hindu in this part of the world,
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  Speaker 1: and you could follow the Indian national calendar with its
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  Speaker 1: Hindu influence, and then you could follow the Gregorian calendar
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  Speaker 1: for business, and then you could follow your family or
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  Speaker 1: community's own personal Hindu calendar, which may be a little different.
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  Speaker 2: I'll take passage of time for dummies, please.
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  Speaker 1: Right right, It's a looney solar calendar.
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  Speaker 2: Luni and lunar. And speaking of those things, or at
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  Speaker 2: least one the lunar part, why don't we move on
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  Speaker 2: to the Chinese lunar calendar, which you may or may
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  Speaker 2: not have heard of.
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  Speaker 1: Love it, love it. It is essentially a lunar calendar.
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  Speaker 1: As you said, modern day China, like so many other countries,
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  Speaker 1: heavily relies on the Gregorian calendar. But this traditional lunar
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  Speaker 1: calendar is still our go to authority on when to
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  Speaker 1: celebrate things like the lantern festival, when to fined it auspacial,
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  Speaker 1: this New Year, yeah, Chinese New Year, When to find
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  Speaker 1: an auspicious date for a wedding, a funeral, moving anything.
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  Speaker 1: You can imagine. This calendar has twelve months or twenty
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  Speaker 1: nine or thirty days, and each of them begins on
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  Speaker 1: the first day of a new moon. And then if
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  Speaker 1: you need to correct the calendar drift, you just add
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  Speaker 1: a leap month. When a leap month now, well, they
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  Speaker 1: had a leap month in the earlier in the Indian
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  Speaker 1: calendar too.
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  Speaker 2: I guess that's true. That's true. We got leap months
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  Speaker 2: rather than days that are Yeah, of course that's exactly right. Then,
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  Speaker 2: but that is the first time I think we've seen
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  Speaker 2: it referred to as a leap month.
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  Speaker 1: I think also just added as needed. They have a
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  Speaker 1: little willy nilly ad hoc. It feels like a great
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  Speaker 1: way to get out of meetings.
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  Speaker 2: By the way, it sure does. Just add a leap
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  Speaker 2: month in each of these months can be referred to.
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  Speaker 2: A month of the Chinese calendar can be referred to
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  Speaker 2: by an animal name or a number that corresponds to
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  Speaker 2: hours of the day as well gues. It's another super
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  Speaker 2: layered calendar as well as the zodiac cycle, and in
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  Speaker 2: order of occurrence, animals are again, these are pretty popular
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  Speaker 2: in Western culture as well, the rat, the ox, the tiger,
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  Speaker 2: the hare, the snake, the dragon, the horse, the sheep,
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  Speaker 2: the monkey, the foul, the dog, and the pig. And
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: aren't there like you can be like a metal pig.
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  Speaker 2: There's like different add ons to each of these animal
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  Speaker 2: deities as well.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is something that's really common in a
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  Speaker 1: lot of our favorite restaurants here in the United States
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  Speaker 1: who might get a placement with the Chinese horoscopes on it, right,
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  Speaker 1: and then you'll be able to calculate based on not
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  Speaker 1: just your month of birth, but also the year. So
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  Speaker 1: you know, Western astrology will typically after twelve once upon
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  Speaker 1: a time, thirteen sun signs and those are all based
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  Speaker 1: on a specific period of rising signs right right in
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  Speaker 1: the Chinese calendar. It's not just based on the month,
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  Speaker 1: it's also based on the year you're born. And it's
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: pretty interesting stuff.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, And there are different versions of this as well,
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  Speaker 2: even within the region. We see different variations in Vietnam
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  Speaker 2: and Korea as well as the Ryuku Islands.
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  Speaker 1: We mentioned the zodiac system. One other thing to know
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  Speaker 1: is that in this twelve year zodiac cycle, each year
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: is assigned an animal. Each animal is associated with a
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: personality that is supposed to be representative of the year
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  Speaker 1: and those born during that year. So, for instance, as
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  Speaker 1: we're recording here in twenty twenty five, this is the
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  Speaker 1: year of the snake.
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  Speaker 2: Watch out, watch you right.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, the story goes that the Jade Emperor, once upon
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  Speaker 1: a time declared the first animal to cross a river
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  Speaker 1: will be the first in the calendar. The second r arbitrary. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: the second animal will be second. And then you guys
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  Speaker 1: get the pattern I'm putting down, and they were like, yes, Emperor.
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  Speaker 2: Okay the rest. So yeah, this is a parable Of course,
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  Speaker 2: there was the cat and the rat who asked the
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  Speaker 2: ox for a little little bit of a piggyback ride.
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  Speaker 2: This is like the tortoise and the hair situation where
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  Speaker 2: the squarey ox reached the bank and then the crafty
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  Speaker 2: rat pushed the cat into.
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  Speaker 1: The river and then the rat jumps off the ox,
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  Speaker 1: and that's how the rat gets to be first because
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  Speaker 1: he's a cheater. And then the tiger comes after the
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  Speaker 1: who's followed by the rabbit. And then the rabbit has
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  Speaker 1: this adventure kind of like Frogger, jumping from rock to
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  Speaker 1: rock and leaps on a log that gets blown to
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  Speaker 1: the shore. Then the dragon shows up, and the dragon, Look,
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  Speaker 1: the interpretation of reptilian creatures is way different in Chinese mythology.
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  Speaker 1: So the snake's not necessarily bad. Neither is the dragon.
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  Speaker 2: Well, the dragon doesn't give them right like he's got
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  Speaker 2: he's out there dragoning, you know, like controlling the laws
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  Speaker 2: of nature and whatnots because of him that the rabbit's
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  Speaker 2: little log got blown ashore in the first place. So
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  Speaker 2: one could argue the dragon is kind of the Diosex
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  Speaker 2: Makina of the whole affair.
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  Speaker 1: One hundred percent. And also right, yes, yes, fusta, the
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  Speaker 1: dragon here is a good guy, is doing a little
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  Speaker 1: bit of a rescue mission. This dragon has stopped to
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: bring rain to a village. The snake takes sixth place.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: The horse shows up in seventh place. The rooster sometimes
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: identified as the fowl as mentioned earlier, finds a raft
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: and rides the raft with the monkey and the goat
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: across the river. Yeah yeah, and so the goat is
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: the eighth month, the monkey the ninth, the rooster of
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: the tenth.
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: Yep, what about the dog. The dog had distracted, didn't
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: he He was splashing around picking up sticks and rocks
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: just chasing his tail, not a care in the world.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like watching golden retrievers try to race, you
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: know what I mean, they're just having.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: Too much fun, they are. Yeah, why not? He did, however,
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: beat the pig. It was apparently wallowing in his own.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: Shit and stopped for a meal and then had a nap.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: Had a wallow, a meal, and a nap in that order.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: Classic Saturday. But even the pig did better than the cat.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: Here's where it takes a dark turn. When the rat
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: pushed the cat into the river. The cat drowned. Save
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: for the cat, it's a pretty interesting story.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: I don't buy it cats are to go that would happen. Yeah,
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I guess cats are freaked out by water,
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: though we.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: Need to know a lot.
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but the myth that cats can't swim, Cats are
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: actually pretty competent swimmers. They hate it every second that
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: they're not. Also are actually kind of go at swimming
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: because they get out.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: I mean the amazing animated film Flow for evidence.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: Love it. Flow is so good. Or if you want
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: to disassociate, just watch some YouTube clips of tigers swimming.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: Man, they're amazing tigers might be my favorite cats. Sorry,
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: I'm apologizing to my own cats now, Oh no, they know,
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: they know you. Yeah, we'll see. So uh. We know
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: then that the Chinese calendar has this deep lore and
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: as does the Chinese zodiac, they play a heavy role
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: in modern Chinese life. This calendar also marks the country's
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: biggest holiday. If you talk to any average Chinese national,
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: they're going to know their zodiac, the sign under which
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: they were born. What they might I not know is
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: that each side also matches a month of the year
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: and a season of the year like the Western astrological signs.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: So it's interesting. But we're already you know, as we're continuing,
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: we're seeing a pattern. A lot of these alternative calendars
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: are lunar based. So with that, since we've mentioned the
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: Hebrew and the Chinese and the Hindu calendars, we've got
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: to mention the amazing accomplishments of the Islamic calendar because
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: they don't use leap months, they don't use leap days,
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: they don't play that game.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: Much like the Dragon and the Chinese calendar, the Islamic
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: calendar don't give it sh They don't care about the
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: drifts they're fine with it.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: They embrace the drift. The named months slowly retrogress throughout
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: the solar year, taking thirty two and a half years
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: to reoccur at the same seasonal time. So there's a
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: thirty two and a half year I guess.
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: What could call it a drift cycle, but it repeats
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: could on that period, and I fully support you doing so, Ben.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: It does still, however, have an important religious benchmark that
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: it isn't necessarily trying to achieve or trying to get
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: to work backwards to get to it just uses that
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: as the start date of the whole damn thing.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: Right, Yes, yeah, the prophet Mohammad's prais Beyantoo journey from
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: Meta to Medina, the Higeira, that's the start date of
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: the calendar. And so in all modern Muslim countries as
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: we know you will see the Islamic calendar often used
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: for religious or ceremonial or personal spiritual purposes, and the
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: Gregorian calendar is used for civil purposes. Like when we
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: can say this, when we were in Cutter not too
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: long ago, just like everybody else in the region, people
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: are using the Gregorian calendar. But then when you go
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: to the mosque or when you enter certain holy sites.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: The Islamic calendar is your main guy.
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: For sure.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: Makes sense, it makes sense, and it's it's common. Uh.
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: I mean, it doesn't make sense, but it makes sense
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: that they would choose.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: To do it, Okay, I mean that hybrid approach makes
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: sense in that so many other places do something similar, right, right,
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: And the Islamic calendar is based on twelve months, but
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: they're lunar months, and they begin when the thin crescent
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: moon is actually sighted in the western sky after sunset
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: a day or so after the new moon. And this
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: is important for the purposes of the Islamic calendar. This
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: sighting must be made with the unaided eye.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: Gopy.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: That. Yeah, it's something that differentiates it from a lot
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: of other lunar calendars. Now we know that the twelve
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: lunar months add up to three fifty four or three
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: hundred and fifty five days, so the Islamic calendar will
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: drift about ten days a year, and that means that Ramadan,
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: the month of fasting, can happen either in summer or winter,
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: depending on its cycle in the calendar.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: You know, I dig. The flexibility of this setup not
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: gonna lie The Islamic calendar is also generally only used
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: for religious holidays like you said, Ben and not civil events.
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: In most Islamic countries, Gregorian calendars are used to track
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: these public events. Iranian and Afghan countries, however, use something
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: called the solar Hezrii calendar, which is an exception to
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: the whole civil event rule. And this comes from calendar
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: dot com, which, of course it's a thing that exists.
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, which we've referenced in the past. You know,
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: let's go back to this idea of observing the rise
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: of the new moon. This is a bit of a
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: bag of badgers. There's a bit of a pickle because
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: you are required to cite that passage of the moon
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: with the unab did i. Each country makes its own observation,
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: and it gets tricky when you realize that the sun
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: sets later as you head farther west, and the conditions
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: might make the moon easier or harder to see in
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: one particular place instead of another. So the result can
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: be that two Muslim countries who are on the same
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: page about literally everything else, maybe in different months of
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: the calendar, at the same time.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, now you lost me. Yeah, we you know, it
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: is that I like the setup of flexibility, but that
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: started to get.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: You might win some, but you just have. So we
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: know that this is something that countries are actively putting
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: their heads around in the modern day because these kinds
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: of calendars, this kind of practice made a lot of
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: sense when the world was less connected. Right when you when.
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: It's true, when you got your own kind of bubble, right,
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: that's all really matter.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: If you're living in Connecticut, you don't need to make
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: sure you're on the same page with Malaysia in the
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: seventeen hundreds, because you're never going to go to Malaysia.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: Probably not. Probably are low. Chances are low.
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: Chances are low unless you're like a whaler America or
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: a teleporter or teleporter quite common in Connecticut in the
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: seventeen hunder.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: Well, Connecticut Yankee. He kind of was a teleporter traveler.
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: Anyway, think about it. We're just saying, think about it.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: So there are some signals that different countries practicing the
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: Islamic calendar may start using calculations instead of observations with
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: the unaided eye, but not everyone's agreed on the best
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: way to do that, and not everyone's agreed that they
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: actually want to do that.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: And you'll also probably remember when we were in Cutter
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: we visited the Museum of Islamic Culture and some of
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: the most incredible, like illuminated texts I've ever seen. Just
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: think that the script that is used, of course is gorgeous,
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: and the calligraphy and all of that. But there were
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: also a lot of exhibits regarding astronomy.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: Oh one hundred percent. And we owe the scientists and
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: the scholars of that period, especially in the days of
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: the automance, we owe them a.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: Great deal, for sure, no question about it. We could
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: go on about the Islamic calendar, and we have, but
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: for the purposes of time, we're going to move on
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: to the international fixed calendar. This one is one that
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: I honestly was not aware of, at least in these terms.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It's kind of like how Esperanto is the universal
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: language that no one speaks. So we have tried to
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: fix the calendar. The fixed calendar is an alternative system
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: for keeping time. And here's our pitch. Every month has
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: exactly twenty eight days. Okay, no extra log or extra
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: short months.
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: Twenty eight days. That's so all you get.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: The idea here is consistency. Every month also has four
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: weeks that always begin on a Sunday the first and
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: end on Saturday, the twenty eighth. Every month's days are
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: the same number. Every single seventeenth is a Tuesday. The
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: first Friday of the month is always the sixth.
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: Now, okay, I don't mind this so far. Is there
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: any reason it didn't take off? Because it seems that
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: it would make scheduling and planning kind of a breeze
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: from mine. I do have a twist for you, okay.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: Of course, Max Shoes, I will.
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: Say, like, I'm pretty sure this is the same one
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: I wrote about this one in the Leapier episode where
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: it's like this guy and he's just like very angry
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: about this thing, and everything I read about him was
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: him just angry about the Greg Gorning calendar. So I
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: was like, I'm gonna stick with Greg Goring calendar out
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: of spite to this guy.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: So yeah, let's keep you going. Here's the twist. Here's
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: the twist. So far, so good, it says our compatriot nol.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: The issue is twenty eight days in each month. That's
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: more fair to the individual months. It only adds up
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: to three hundred and thirty six days total in the year.
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: Damn.
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: So to fix the fixed calendar you have to add
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: a new thirteenth month between June and July.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: So it's not fixed at all. I mean, I think
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: in the context of the title, wouldn't fix refer to
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: like being immovable rather than like repaired?
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: Right, right? Right? Well, I think maybe in both senses
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: is the ambition. But they added that month between June
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: and July, which throws our whole summer baby thing way off.
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: You have soul sweet summer child right to represent the summer,
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: so like the old word for the sun. So now
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: that we have this extra month, the total goes to
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: three hundred and sixty four. We only have one day still,
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: one short leftover. It's always the one day, right, And
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: so here's what the fixed calendar says. They say, Look
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: forget it, guys, school's out once a year. We're just whatever.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: We'll call it a celebration day. It's after Saturday.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: That's fun.
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: It's after Saturday's December twenty eighth, because remember all months
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: or twenty eight now, but both.
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: Swimming will wear party hats. I think pink lemonade, pint
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: grown tights.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: Yes, the rise of cloud bits will have you know,
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: we'll have bingo, We'll have the file Day. You know, Yeah,
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: we'll have a field Day. It is literally a celebration
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: that occurs after the last official day of the year,
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: but before the beginning official day of the next year, Sunday,
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: January first, and they call it year Day.
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: I think I'm into this still. I think I'm on
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: board with the International Fixed Calendar.
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: Because of your day, because there's a party. Is that, yes, yes,
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: your day.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: It sounds like a hoot. It sounds like a hoot.
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: I'm just being contrarian.
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: I like my calendar being confusing. I like my calendar
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: being extra I watch to be challenge.
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: Some I'm being positively contrarian. Death I thing.
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: I like. It reminds me of the kind of logic
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: in some of my favorite young adult books, Sideways Stories
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: from which it was Sideway Stories from Wayside high Wayside
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: for sure.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah remember those This stuff was all wacky wayside high.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: Right sometimes took a dark turn. That's kind of what's
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: happening with your day because the day falls on December
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: twenty ninth, logically, but the calendar's official line is it
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: falls on no day.
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: Of the week. It's just saying school not even high.
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: It was just Wayside School by Lewis Sacker. I remember
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: that book from the Book Fair. There's like a creepy,
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: witchy looking teacher with like elf ears on the front.
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a there's a story in the school that
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: doesn't exist. This was cool because this was a sleeper
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: hit right up there with scary stories to tell in the.
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: Dark bro book Fair books when a kid were a mad,
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: like irresponsibly dark.
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: I loved it.
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: I think it wrecked us in some ways. Scary stories
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: of telling the dark. Illustrations alone, which were pretty beautifully
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: captured in that Guillemo del Toro produced. Yeah, adaptation which
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: wasn't like great, but like I thought, they did a
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: cool job of translating those freaky drawings into you know,
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: character design. But yeah, that book messed me up.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: Man, I loved it.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: It probably did affect the way there then her head
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: fell off.
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the worms crawled in, the worms crawled out. Yeah,
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: Oh I love it.
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: They played pein what even his pe knuckle?
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: It's a card game also like winks, It's just it's
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: a card game that I really don't want us to
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: have to try to get into explain it Is it
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: like pog It's like pog. Okay, I'm played up the
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: definition from Britannica. It's like a trick taking ace ten
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: card game for the forty eight card deck. It's derived
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: from the card game busique.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: Oh yes, of course, bisique h with Middle Eastern roots.
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: It's the wait I thought you would be sarcastic. Oh
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: you know, phsique? Is it not?
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: I think it seems like it would. It's I don't know,
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: it seems like it would be an ancient card game.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: Oh gosh, I'm derailing us.
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: We're derailing, derailing all the way to a close. We
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: got a episode. I think I think that's time we
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: got to.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: Get back on the rails here. This newly proposed fixed
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: calendar is meant to overcome a lot of the challenges
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: we talked about earlier. The advantages are obvious, but it
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: has not been adopted because of kind of a time
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: measurement version of path dependence. People are just really committed
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: to the existing calendars they practice, regardless of how imperfect
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: those may be.
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, brand loyalty, you know, I mean, if I can
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: jump in here, this is this is my honest thick
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: actually is a greg Woring calendar is not very far off.
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: I think it's the year's like forty nine one hundred
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: is when we'll actually have to make an adjustment for
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: the first time. But the other one is it feels
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: like it might be one of these things where it's
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: gonna cost more pain to instituted in.
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: Right, then, just keep with what we got.
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, We've seen it in so many other industries and fields.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: You know. Honestly, it's the reason Japan still uses fax
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: machines all the time because we already have the fax machines, right,
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: so how much will it cost to replace them?
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: Or maybe Big Calendar is entering the fray. Maybe they
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: just don't want things to change. Or Noel, I'm going
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: to say it. Maybe Max is anti year day.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: Hey, Max is anti fun and Max's anti birthday.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: Your day is like one of the best holidays. We
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: could get Hawaiian shirts that say no day of the week.
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: Uh, I don't know why your day seems Hawaii thing
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: to me. At this point, I'm spitballing. We'll figure out
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: your day. Tell us how you want to celebrate it.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: We are going to wrap up by telling you that.
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: There have, of course been multiple other less successful attempts
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: at calendars. One of my favorite, of course is the
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: Jucha calendar of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea DPRK.
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: Street named North Korea and got their own calendar.
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: Hell yeah, go weird different calendar, and weird is the
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: wrong word. These are all very much tied to culture
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: and tradition and myth making and all of that. It's
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: a complex cosmic gumbo that yields all these fascinating different calendars.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we used to say that on set. It's kind
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: of a cosmic gumbo. We did. We know that there
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: are some calendars that were very much motivated by political changes.
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: The French Republican calendar the Soviet calendar both purposely created
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: to move society away from the influence of monarchs and religion,
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: and the Soviet calendar to expressly make where output levels
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: were high. That's that's how that's how they got to
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: get a good yield. You got to get a good yield.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: There are so many other things we could talk about.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: I'd love maybe to do a history in the future
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: about the various self created calendars occult leaders.
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: Why not they don't take great. Yeah, but did Apple
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: White have a calendar?
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: He had a calendar with an end date.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: The Heaven's Gate guy, yeah, the bald guy in the sky. Yeah. No, No,
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: this is interesting, Ben, It's not occurred to me. I
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: would love to go into this sometime, maybe on stuff
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: they don't want you to know.
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's good, we'll see. We'll check what day it is.
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: And as we're gearing up to celebrate our first year
• 38:42
  Speaker 4: day together, I just love the name.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm all for it. Sign me up for the
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: International Fixed Calendar.
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: And please site us up as some of your biggest fans,
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: ridiculous historians. Thank you so much for tuning in and
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: supporting the show. Big shout out to our super producer,
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: mister Max Williams. Big shout out to Jeff Factor, G Bartlett,
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: our research associate, and of course, our guy who created
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: his own calendar, Jonathan Strickland aka the Quister.
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: Every day is Jday Long, May he rain. We'll see
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: your favorite shows,