Latest / Wired To Hunt Podcast / Ep. 963: The Legendary Roger Rothhaar’s Big Buck Lessons

Transcript

Ep. 963: The Legendary Roger Rothhaar’s Big Buck Lessons · Wired To Hunt Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the wired to Hunt podcast.
• 0:03
  Speaker 2: This week, on the show, we are doing a deep
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: dive into the big buck lessons of one of the
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: white tailed community's greatest legends, Roger Rothar. He was the
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: influencer of today's whitetail influencers, and today we're going to
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: learn exactly why. All right, welcome back to the wired
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: ton podcast, brought to you by First Light and their
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: Camo for Conservation Initiative. And today we have got a
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: unique episode, an episode that I think and I hope
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: that you are really going to enjoy and something that
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: you're not going to find anywhere else, not this fall
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: on another podcast, not you know, probably over any podcast
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: created anywhere, because we are going to be learning today
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: from somebody who tragically is no longer with us. We
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: are going to be doing a deep dive into the
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: lesson and the big buck hunting, mature whitetail chasing strategies
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: of the one and only Roger Rothar. And if that's
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: a name that you do not recognize, if that's someone
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: you do not know, I want to tell you a
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: little bit about who he is and why you should
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: be paying attention to this Because Roger Rothar is a legend,
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: and he is a legend because he is the guy
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: who taught the guys that we're all paying attention to now,
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: so Don Higgins, Mark Drury, Bill Winky, countless of other
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: folks that we look up to today as experts in
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: our field, as the ogs of whitetail hunting. Their guy,
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: the person that they were all looking up towards when
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: they were growing up and learning about deer hunting.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: It was Roger Rothar. He was the original, He was
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: the og, as they say, But we don't have the
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: opportunity to learn from him today the way we do
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: from the current folks like Mark and Bill and Don
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: and so many others that have been on this podcast.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: So I got to thinking, how can we.
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: How can we get into this, How can we kind
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: of digest and consume and learn from this person who
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: had so much to share and who influenced so many
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: other previous generations. Well, fortunate for us, Roger was a writer.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: He wrote several very well selling and influential books and
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: a number of different articles. And I decided to go
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: find those books myself, read them and share with you
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: what I learned. Pick apart, the most important lessons, the
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: greatest philosophies and strategies and approaches that Roger applied to
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: his hunting in the sixties and seventies and eighties and
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: nineties that led to him being a true pioneer in
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: the white tail hunting world when it comes to targeting
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: mature books. I want to share with you what I
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: learned after going out and finding used This one's actually
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: not used, but from a used bookstore.
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: I had to pay several hundred dollars for these out.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: Of print old books, but I was able to do it,
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: was able to see exactly why this guy is such
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: a legend. Roger Rothar has a lot to teach all
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: of us, not just about how to kill big bucks,
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: but also about the mindset that we bring to it.
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: So I'm excited to share all of that with you today.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: This is going to be another just you and Me
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: episode where we're going to dive deep into the pages
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: of these books. I'm going to read you excerpts from
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: Roger's own words of how he taught so many people
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: and how he had success killing mature bucks back before
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: there were podcasts, back before there were a thousand videos
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: teaching you to do this back before there were trail
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: cameras and thermal drones and all this crazy stuff that's
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: we're going to talk about today. Before we get to that, though,
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: I want to set the stage and maybe set the
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: you know better, frame this all up for you by
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: bringing in a quick guest, a little surprise appearance here
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: from Don Higgins, because Don is one of those people
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: who I mentioned was seriously influenced by Roger. So I
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: want Don to hop on here briefly for a few
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: minutes to tell us, you know, why and how Roger
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: was so influential on him and so many other hunters
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: back in the seventies and eighties and nineties, and what
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: some of the most important lessons were that Don took
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: from Roger as he was becoming a white tail hunter himself.
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: So real quick, here's Don, all right, Don, So, this
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: name Roger Rothar has come up time and time again
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  Speaker 2: for me over the years, from folks like yourself, Mark Drury,
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: Bill Wink, many of kind of our experts today, the
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: influencers today in the whitetail world all seem to have
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: been influenced by Roger Rothar. Why do you think that was?
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  Speaker 2: What was it about him? And what he taught that
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: was so impactful. Well, he was ahead of his time.
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  Speaker 2: He was super successful.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, at the very beginning stages of the mod whitetail craze.
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  Speaker 3: I think it all started with a series of articles
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  Speaker 3: that he had in Bowhunter magazine, probably the late seventies,
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  Speaker 3: maybe nineteen eighty.
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: Somewhere in there.
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  Speaker 3: And then he wrote a couple of books, my favorite
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: being Whitetail Magic. I think his first one was titled
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: In Pursuit of Trophy Whitetails. But I liked the Whitetail
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: Magic because he just covered a lot of his hunts
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: for specific bucks in there. But you know, you've got
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: to remember that Roger gained his notoriety at a time
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  Speaker 3: where there was no trail cameras, there was no food plots.
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: It was just observation and time in the woods and
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: woodsmanship skills, and he was just dedicated to that. And
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: you know, he a little bit older than a lot
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: of us other guys that were just coming onto the scene.
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  Speaker 3: Like when I bet Roger, I was a teenager, I
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: was eighteen nineteen years old, and so he would have
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: been he'd probably been old enough to be my dad. Actually,
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: he would have been, he'd have been old enough to
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  Speaker 3: be my dad. So I looked up to him as
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: a mentor, and he just ahead of his game in
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: term of knowledge and success both And that's what kind
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: of set him apart back in the day.
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  Speaker 2: Do you feel like some of that, you know, genuine
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: woodsmanship and that you know understanding your quarry, even without
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: trail cameras, without drones, without all of these fancy technological
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: tools we have today, is that missing a little bit?
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  Speaker 1: Now?
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  Speaker 2: Could we all benefit from a little bit of that
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  Speaker 2: Roger mindset back in our lives?
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  Speaker 1: Oh, without a doubt.
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  Speaker 3: You know, guys, my age we cut our teeth into
• 6:52
  Speaker 3: the deer hunting woods before that technology. And when that
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: technology came along, it we in combination with the hunting skills,
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: the woodsmanship knowledge that we'd already picked up. And I
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: think today's younger hunter, he's had a super advantage over
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: what I had with the knowledge that's out there. I mean,
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: the Internet has just brought more deer hunting knowledge and
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: opinion to a person's fingertip so than we ever had
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: back in the day. I mean, we was lucky to
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: have North American White Tail, one magazine that came not
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: even once a month. I think it was published eight
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: times a year, and guys like me would read through
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: that in about twenty four hours and we're ready for
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: the next issue. And it might be it was at
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: least a month of not two months before you've seen
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: the next one. And so today's whitetail hunter has a
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: lot more knowledge at their fingertips, way more advanced than
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: I was early in my stages of my hunting career.
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  Speaker 1: But at the.
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  Speaker 3: Same time, the young hunter today is not gaining that
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: woodsmanship type knowledge that that guys my age picked up, you.
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: Know when we were younger.
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  Speaker 3: So I think when you combine the two, there's a
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: and I'm probably in this generation where we had the
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: best of both worlds. You know, we had the Roger Rothars,
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: the Gene Winsils, the Berry Winsils, and then we were
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: yet young enough that we still caught some of the
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  Speaker 3: the modern technology phase, if you will, the Internet, the
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: trail cameras, the drones. We benefit from both, and I
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: think today's younger hunter does not benefit from the previous
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: generation the way we do, or we did.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, So when you look back, if you can think
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: back on those books that you read from Roger and
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  Speaker 2: the articles. And I'm not sure if you ever got
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: to see any of the sentin ours or speak with
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: him personally.
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  Speaker 1: But what what st.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: With you now is maybe you know the couple most
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  Speaker 2: important deer hunting lessons that you learned from Roger.
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  Speaker 3: Well, I mean, there's there's two things that really stick
• 9:10
  Speaker 3: in my mind that I heard from him. And I
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: did meet him in person multiple times, actually spent a
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: week in bear camp in Canada with him in Saskatchewan.
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  Speaker 3: Back in I'd have probably been maybe thirty years old,
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: so I was around him to some degree, not near
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: as much as I wish I had been. But there's
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: two things that really stick stood with me through the
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: all this time that I still don't apply today. One
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: of those Roger said that years ago told me that
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: a mature buck will go at least one hundred yards
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  Speaker 3: out of his way to go through an open gate
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: or a down spot in the fence rather than jump
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: that fence. And you know, I've used that knowledge on
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  Speaker 3: my own farm. It was surrounded by a cattle pasture
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: and had the old cattle fence, and when I got
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: rid of the cattle, one of the first things I
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: did was take the wirecutters and cut some holes in
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: the fence for the deer to funnel through. Basically that
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  Speaker 3: that all stem from Roger making that one comment to me,
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  Speaker 3: and he made that in person. I remember we was
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: at a Professional bow Hunter Society event in Ohio when
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: he told me this, and so I've always kept that
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  Speaker 3: in mind, that a deer, I'm mature buck especially, would
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: go a good little bit out of his way to
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: go through an opening and a fence. Another thing that
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: that stuck with me that he shared years ago was
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: that the biggest bucks in the woods, the most mature deer,
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: the best time to kill them is Thanksgiving weekend. Roger
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  Speaker 3: loved Thanksgiving weekend, the tail end of the rut, and
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  Speaker 3: that is really stood the test of time with my
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: own hunting, and in fact, there's a period of time
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: it's probably been close to twenty years ago now, but
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: for five consecutive seasons, the biggest buck I seen from
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: a stand each of those five seasons was Thanksgiving weekend.
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  Speaker 1: And this would have been back.
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  Speaker 3: In the day when I was hunting permission properties before
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: I owned my own farm. I would take the whole
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: month of November off from my job and so I
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: was out there every day, and a lot of times
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: my vacation would start at the end of October, so
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: i'd get the last couple of days of October and
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: then the entire month of November, and I would go
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: back to work, usually the Monday after Thanksgiving. That's how
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: I always set my vacation up. And it was just
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: ironic that I would hunt for an entire month and
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: the best buck I would see would be the last
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: couple of days of my vacation Thanksgiving weekend. And Roger
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: explained it perfectly, you know. He said that the ruts
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: winding down, those big boys know it's just about over
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: for another year, and they're desperately searching for that next
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: hot dough, and they're covering a lot of territory doing that,
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: and they're on their feet in daylight searching, and that's
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: when they become really vulnerable. And I know he killed
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: some of his better bucks during that time frame, and
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: I don't know that I've killed that many during that
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: time frame, but I've definitely seen a lot of giants
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: during that Thanksgiving period. And if it wasn't for Roger
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: driving that point home when I was younger, I probably
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: would not have spent near as much time hunting that
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: time of.
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  Speaker 1: The year as I have.
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: So I think it's really important that they, guys, you know,
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: keep the faith, don't give up and lose hope. That
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: Thanksgiving weekend at the end of the rut is a
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: fantastic time to kill the biggest buck in the woods.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny you mentioned that, and it hearkens right
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: back to what I talked about earlier about how today's
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: influencers were influenced by Roger, Because as you just said that,
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: I remembered that I had read an article in North
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: American White Tail that you wrote. I think that's where
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: I heard from you. It was either that or in
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: one of your books. But I remember you saying this
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: exact thing, saying Thanksgiving's a great time, and I remember
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: because of that, I made a return trip to a
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: property I had access to down in southern Ohio right
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: at that time around Thanksgiving, and I remember thinking myself,
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: all right, it can still be darn good for those
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: really old bucks. Stick it out and stay all day.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: So I hunted in an all day sit on November
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: It was like the twenty fifth or twenty seventh or
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: somewhere in that ballpark, and sure enough, my target buck
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: came out at one o'clock in the afternoon. And so
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: so funny that you told me that, and Roger told
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: you that, the picture perfect example of what we're talking
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: about here.
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, Mark, one of the things that
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: I appreciate about you is that you give credit and
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: to others when you learn something. I try to do
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: the same, and Roger was very instrumental in my success
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: even today. And I think it's important that you know,
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: we give credit where it's due. We remember, I didn't
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: figure out much on my own. Maybe a little bit,
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: but you know a lot of the knowledge that I
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: have is has come from others, or it's come from
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: mistakes I've made.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: It's not because I was smart.
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: And I just appreciate that you're willing to give credit
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: where it's due and do this basically this podcast on
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: Roger Rothar, who was definitely one of.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: My heroes when I was younger.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm excited for folks to hear this. So before
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: I let you go, I have one additional question that
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: just popped in my mind.
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: If you could leave one.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: Like, if somebody that's going to listen to this podcast today,
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: if you could leave them with one important thing from Roger,
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: a Roger rotharism, a takeaway. What would that one takeaway
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: be in which you know you would like the listener
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: today to be a little bit more like Roger in
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: the future, or to put this into action in the
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: future that Roger would have said.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: What would that one takeaway be?
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: Well, if you knew Roger at all, you know that
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: he was opinionated and stubborn, and that I am the
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: same way. I probably I don't know if I got
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: it from him, but you know he talk to anybody
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: knows me, and I'll tell you that I'm pretty opinionated,
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: and I shared my opinion openly. But you know, I
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: think that in today's society, people have become too politically
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: correct that they don't want to offend anyone. And Roger
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: was very outspoken about what he believed in compound bows.
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: His view of compound bow's was probably similar to my
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: view of crossbows, and even in our later conversations. You
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: know my the last book that I wrote, Real World
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: Wide tail Icons, Roger had three chapters in it, yep,
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: and he had a couple of gouges in there that
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: were maybe directed straight to me.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I didn't take any offense, but.
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: And I don't want people to hear this and think
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: I'm anti crossbow. What I just my opinion is that
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: I don't think that crossbow should be in the archery
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: season for able bodied hunters. I definitely don't want to
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: keep anyone out of the woods. And I've had friends,
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: good friends sent on my farm in the same blind
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: with me using a crossbow and I never said a
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: word to him. I think, if it's legal, it's their choice.
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: But you know, Roger stood on what he believed in
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: and he'd made no apologies for it. He didn't look
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: down on me because I shot a compound. He didn't
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: like compounds, but he accepted me as a fellow deer hunter,
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: and you know, I try to be the same way.
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: But I think it's his willingness to stand up for
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: what he believed in and speak out for what he
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: believed in that I hope others take from this, and
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: you know, that whole idea about Thanksgiving weekend. I hope
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: that resonates with people, and I hope it keeps the
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: deer hunters that are listening to this podcast. I hope
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: it keeps them motivated throughout the entire rut. In my opinion,
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: I think a lot lot of guys get really fired
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: up for the peak of the rut November fifteenth, and
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: I think that's the time of the year to kill
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: a giant on purpose. The very beginning of the rut
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: around November seventh is a great time. But then the
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: other great time is that Thanksgiving weekend. And that was
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: something that Roger brought to the deer hunting world all
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: those decades ago. And I just hope people listening to
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: this remember that and they stay motivated throughout the entire
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: month of November in the white tail rut, and they
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: don't get burned out, you know, fifteenth or twentieth of
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: November and think it's over. There's still a really good
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: time coming up towards the end of November, that you
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: got a chance to kill the biggest buck in the woods.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah. That's a great point.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: And back to what you mentioned at the beginning there
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: about his outspokenness and his opinion, his opinionated nature on things.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: I think one way that came out for me in
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: his books was just how much emphasis he put on
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: the way you do things. It wasn't so much about
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: if you kill the giant buck or if you succeeded
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: with your goal. It was just as important, maybe more important,
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: that you did it in such a way that you
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: you know, did it the right way, or did it
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: in the way that was enjoyable or ethical. He put
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: a huge emphasis on that throughout all of his rating,
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: and that that really stuck out to me too.
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely.
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: I mean those that don't know roger hunting with a
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: recurved bow, I think he used an Austenheimer was the
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: brand or the bow maker, the bowyer of his choice.
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: He also invented the snuffer broadhead. The snuffer has been
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: really popular, especially back in the day. I'm not so
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: sure today, but I'm sure it is to some degree
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: with traditional archers. So you know, he had a major
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: impact in a lot of different ways on the modern
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: deer hunting movement, and I just appreciate that he's going
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: to be remembered.
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, thank you don for sharing you or your
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: memories here and your perspective. This is this is really helpful,
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: So thank you.
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you're welcome. Thanks for having me Mark. All right,
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: So great chat. That was, Don. I hope you now
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: have a better sense of just how.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: Impactful this guy, Roger Rothar was. Now let's get into
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: the material. Let's get into my book reports here. I
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: have gone through these books, taken extensive notes, picked out
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: the most eye opening and important and impactful passages that
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: I could find, the things that I think really frame
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: up Roger's philosophy in many ways. And as I alluded
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: to before Don came on, some of my favorite things
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: about Roger based on these books are not just his
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: you know, x's and o's tactics, but also the approach
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: he took as far as how he thinks about our
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: role as hunters, and how he you know, approaches the
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: pursuit in a way that respects wildlife in the wild
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: places and really what it means to be a hunter.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: He very much and I mentioned this with Don, he
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: is very much about the how just as much the what.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: So let's open here with a passage from his book
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: that I think sets that up very nicely. This is
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: an extended one, but going to read it to you
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: here briefly. All right, So Roger says in his book,
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: in Pursuit of Trophy, Whitetails To be sure, very few
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: wild animals can compare to a mature whitetail buck for
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: pure grace and beauty, and his regal bearing attests to
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: the majesty with which he regards his domain in spite
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: of the pressures and challenges thrown against him by man.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: In nature, he is king, and he shows it. He
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: exudes confidence in his ability to accept those challenges and
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: to win in spite of the odds against him. And
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: he has fitted with a complete set of senses which
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: are razor sharp from eons of defensive living, and a
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: cunning matched in the animal world world only by those
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: of the bounty sought predators. He represents the ultimate challenge
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: to the trophy hunter, but he is much more than that.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: The fact that he has survived and flourished in territory
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: which has been robbed of any sort of wildness by
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: the progress of man makes the white tail deer something
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: very special. He abounds in many areas undesirable to man
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: because of the harsh nature of the land, but so
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: have other species of wildlife. What really makes the whitetail
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: so very special is that he survived where the others perished,
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: and in so doing he preserved a measure of the
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: wildness now missing from these spoiled lands. As the land
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: is taken over by man and his numbers multiply, the
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: situation is soon crowded with too many people in too
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: small a space. When this happens, there are many people
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: who cannot tolerate the constant pressures put upon them by
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: that kind of lifestyle, yet they are trapped since that
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: is their only known way of making a living. However,
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: many seek periodotic relief from these pressures by escaping for
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: short periods of time through short vacations into wild areas
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: on hunting or fishing trips. Often due to limited time
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: or finances, he can't travel far and is still the
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: victim of overcrowding in the field or on the stream.
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: It is at this time that the whitetail gives the
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: gift that makes him the most respected and valuable game
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: animal in the country. That gift is a touch of
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: wildness that the soul of man so desperately needs in
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: a crowded and controlled world. Pursuit of the other big
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: game trophies, such as the sheep and elk, bear, and
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: moose most often requires an expensive and somewhat involved trip
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: into wilderness country, which is the type of environment these
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: animals must have to survive. The presence of the whitetail
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: makes a wilderness of a ten acre woodlock. For the moment,
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: the hunter is free from the sights and sounds of
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: civilization all around him, and he's taken back through time
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: to that prehistoric age when man was a predator and
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: life was as simple as drawing a breath.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: How good is that? And how true is that that
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: the presence of a.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: White tail can make a wilderness of just a ten
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: acre lot, or heck, even a three acre lot, that
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: little bit of woods behind your house, or that little
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: brushy draw on the cornfield, or maybe it is the
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: big wild woods of the North having that white tail
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: out there that brings this electricity to it. I know,
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: if you have hunted yourself, if you've been out there
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: with deer, you can relate to that. Whether it's right
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: behind your house or deep.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: In the wilderness.
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: Having these deer running around out there just makes everything
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: so much more, just pulsing with life. And I think
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: Roger just absolutely nails it there.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: So I really like this. I really like the way
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: that he.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: Frames everything up and maybe sets the stage with how
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: important these critters are, and important, how important you know
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: our pursuit of them is. I want to give you
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: one more example of that here before we get into
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: some of us nitty gritty thoughts on hunting. This one's
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: from Whitetail Magic, his second book in that first one,
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: in Pursuit of Trophy of White Tails, I believe, was
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: published in the early eighties. Whitetail Magic was published in
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: the early nineties. He asked the question what makes a
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: good deer hunter? Rogers says this, So, what does it
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: take to be a good deer hunter? Invariably a good
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: hunter is a good woodsman. Every really good deer hunter
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: that I've ever known of literally loved the out of doors.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: They not only are comfortable and at home in the woods,
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: they deeply respect it and find a peacefulness in the
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: wild that reaches to the soul. They are the people
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: who spend lots of time in the woods because they
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: want to, and not because they know they must in
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: order to kill big deer. The good hunter first and
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: foremost wishes to be a part of that environment.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: He loves. To do so requires knowledge and understanding not
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: only of the plants, and animals, but also the wind
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: and weather. The more one understands of these things, the
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: more he becomes a part of it. To this type
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: of person, the killing of an animal is truly the
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: harvesting of nature's bounty, and the opportunities to do so
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: are granted to him because he deserves them, and later
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: he continues. But it still takes more than all these
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: things covered thus far to make a good deer hunter.
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: The key to it all is the word good. The
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: dictionary definition of the word lists first and foremost morally excellent, righteous, pious. Now,
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: in my book, that all boils down to basic honesty.
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: A good deer hunter must be honest and truthful to
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: himself and the game. He must be honest enough to
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: admit there will be a lot to learn and a
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: lot of work involved in gaining that knowledge. He must
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: be truthful in assessing his own inadequacies in order to
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: realize which aspects he must improve on. And most of all,
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: he must be honest with his fellow man and grant
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: him his rights. None of the good deer hunters I
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: have ever known blamed another man's success for his own failures.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: Each admitted his own shortcomings and worked to improve them.
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: That is also traeval athletes who rise to the top,
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: as well as people who are successful at any endeavor.
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: There is a message here, So what really makes a
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: good deer hunter? Obviously the answer cannot be based purely
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: upon the numbers or size of the deer taken. There
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: are too many variables involved, nor can it depend upon
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: the amount of time or money spent on the endeavor.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: The answer lies totally and the reason one is hunting.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: Roger nails it there. This is something that has taken
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: me years and years and years to learn, but Roger
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: had written in these pages decades ago. So much of
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: what comes down to, you know, being a good deer hunter,
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: or really you know, enjoying and being satisfied as a
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: deer hunter, is why you're getting after in the first place.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: If you are trying to be a quote unquote good
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: deer hunter just because you want to put a huge
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: rack on the wall or just because you want to
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: impress people on Instagram.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: You are doomed for failure.
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: But as I hope I can show you through the
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: rest of this podcast and the words of Roger, if
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: you come to the woods, if you come to deer hunting,
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: hoping to enjoy the process, hoping to enjoy the animal
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: and the landscape and the incredible challenge of trying to
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: get close enough to one of these animals with a
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: bow or a firearm and successfully kill mature buck.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: If you are doing it because.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: Of that process, if that's your reason, in your why,
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: you are bound to succeed and be very satisfied and
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: probably punch a lot of tags too. Roger makes that
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: point over and over again, and I wanted to make
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: sure we lead with that because I think everything else
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: that follows, everything else that follows, has that is its
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: fund foundation. So keep that in mind as we continue
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: down this path. All right, So, I think another thing
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: Roger mentioned early on in that passage.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: I think it was actually in the first passage.
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: He mentioned that all good deer hunters want to be
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: in the woods as much as possible, and not just
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: because they have to be to kill deer, but because
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: it calls to them, because it fills them with some
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: kind of life force. And this is something that Roger
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: emphasizes over and over again, with scouting being one of
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: the major ways that comes manifest. If there was anything
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: I think that Roger preached more than anything else, and
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: something actually that as I did some research on this,
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: I found out that he really was one of the
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: pioneers of this idea in the hunting world. It was scouting,
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: and not just scouting once or twice, but scouting all
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: year round. Roger popularized some of the things that we
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: are talking about today you know all the time, which is,
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: you know, scouting postseason, when the snow melts and when
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: you can see stuff before greenup. He then talked about
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: different kinds of scouting the summer, and then finally he
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: talked about in season scouting and how important that was woodsmanship,
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: truly knowing the landscape, truly knowing deer behavior, being able
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: to decipher all of that in the woods.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: He was one of the first to really.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: Share with the public why that's so important and how
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: that can lead to deer and it was more important
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: than ever back then because again, there's no trail cameras
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: to give you that data. There's no deer prediction models
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: and apps that tell you when deer should move. He
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: had to be out there in the field to see it,
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: to confirm it, to figure out the timing of all
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: of it.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: And I think we.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: Would probably all do well to go back to some
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: of that and to not lean too much on our
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: modern scouting technology. If we can bring some of this back,
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: if we can bring the Roger Roth techniques and approach
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: back to our modern day deer hunting, I think we
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: will all benefit greatly. So I want to read to
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: you a few different excerpts from Roger about his scouting approaches,
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: about his scouting mindset, and specific things that he's looking for.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: So first an excerpt from in Trophy in Pursuit of
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: trophy white tails. All right, So, in this excerpt, he
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: really I think helps us answer the question of why
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: why scouting is just so important and why you know,
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: looking at scouting as a year round endeavor and maybe
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: just as important or more important than actually hunting.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: Why that is?
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: He discusses that here some readers may recall my reference
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: to the trophy hunter resigning himself to a lot of
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: hunting between shots. This is not to be interpreted to
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: mean that the time between shots will be dreary and uneventful.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: Quite to the contrary, unless, of course, one considers the
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: observing of sub trophy whitetail, deer and other wildlife as
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: well as nature's wonders as boring. If that's the case,
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: you are definitely involved in the wrong sport. Actually, the
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: time spent on stand constitutes only a small frack of
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: the time I spend a field in pursuit of my
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: chosen sport. On the overall basis, the ratio would probably
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: figure out to something like one to ten or less.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: The greater part of my time is spent scouting for signs,
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: familiarizing myself with the terrain and wind conditions of my areas,
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: and generally becoming acquainted with the dear movement patterns within
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: the areas. While doing this, it is important to mentally
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: evaluate all these things. Consider all the facts as you
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: know them from every possible point of view, try to
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: compare them to former hunting experiences that might have been similar,
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: then draw logical conclusions. To do this requires the development
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: of an outstanding memory. The facts may be gathered over
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: a long period of time, but must be stored in
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: the memory bank until they fit into the puzzle. I've
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: had several occasions where a certain aspect of a hunting
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: situation just did not quite fit into place. Then, after
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: hours or days, in some cases, weeks of pondering the solution,
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: it would suddenly hit me when some forgotten fact was remembered.
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: Patience is probably one of the most difficult to develop
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: forms of mental conditioning, and at the same time one
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: of the most important for many hunters. Impatience is the
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: product of uncertainty, uncertainty born from improper or incomplete pre
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: scouting preparation. As an example, one can imagine how easy
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: it would be to sit in the same stand day
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: in and day out, through good weather and bad for
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: weeks if necessary, so long as you are one hundred
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: percent certain that sometime during that period you would get
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: a good shot at a real trophy buck. On the
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: other hand, put yourself in that stand with no positive
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: knowledge of the odds of the bucks showing up, or
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: worse yet, thinking the odds are against it. The key
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: to patience, then is to do whatever is required to
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: develop an affirmative confidence attitude. So important scouting equals confidence,
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: and confidence kills key key lesson here. If you scout enough,
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: you will have the confidence it's necessary to go into
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: the field with the right mindset. The mindset that's going
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: to keep you focused, it's going to keep you positive.
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: That's not only going to put you in the right place,
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: but it's going to put you in the right mindset
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: to actually execute on a quality hunt when that opportunity
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: finally does come together. It's a really really important thing
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: here that I appreciate Roger sharing. Here's one more thing
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: on scouting. Roger writes, the whitetail did not get his
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: reputation for craftiness by being an easy mark. So long
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: as one part time deer hunter pursues one full time deer,
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: there will never be any danger of his losing his
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: place in the wild. I would have to agree with
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: the philosophy of the old deer hunter who said deer
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: cannot actually think, they only think they can. And so
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: it must be understood that in order to do a
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: good job of white tail hunting and to rate a
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: decent chance of collecting a real trophy buck, it's necessary
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: to know all you possibly can about him. This means
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: hours and hours of fear, either scouting for sign an activity,
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: or an actual observation. This scouting must be done all
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: year round and at every opportunity.
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: So I love these two ideas side by side.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: This idea that you know as long as one part
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: time deer hunter pursues one full time deer, there will
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: never be any danger.
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: Of him disappearing.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: Right, So this idea that you know, this deer is
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: out there all the time, we are on their terms
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: when we head into the field. So as long as
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: we're part time and those deer are full time, it's
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: going to be a serious, serious struggle. You are going
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: to need to scout and learn and observe and put
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: lots and lots of pieces together if we're ever going
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: to succeed. But at the same time, he also brings
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: up the point in that same passage that you know,
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: deer can't actually think, they just think they can.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: This brings to mind something that my pale Tony says
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: a lot, which is that you know, deer just you know,
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: mature bucks are just rabbits with antlers. They are not genius,
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: They are not magical. They are not you know, statisticians
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: making calculated, probabilistic decisions about where Hunter is going to
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: be and how I'm going to try to kill them.
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: They're not doing that kind of thing. So I think
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: that they have.
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: This incredible set of survival instincts, and as he mentioned,
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: they're living out their full time so they understand their
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: home better than anyone else. That is going to make
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: our job incredibly challenging. But at the same time, it
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: is not impossible for us. If we understand the basics,
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: if we scout, if we work year round as much
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: as we possibly can to immerse ourselves in these settings,
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: we can have success. We can intercept these deer. I
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: think Roger makes that point over and over and over again.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: Be in the field, scout more, learn more, ask questions,
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: get out there. Don't rely on your cameras. I think
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: he would be saying, don't rely on your digital maps.
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: I think he would be saying, don't lean too much
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: on the deer predictions or whatever somebody tells you on YouTube.
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: Get out there see it for yourself. That is I
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: think Roger's first and maybe very most important lesson to
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: all of us here today. Now, how do we effectively
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: scout when we're actually out there in the field.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: What do we do? What can we do? How did
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: Roger do it?
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: One of the most interesting things that I think he
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: wrote about in his book here was having the right mindset.
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: So when you're actually out there walking through the woods
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: looking for sign, Roger brings up a very important thing,
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: which is you know the questions you ask while you
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: are taking all this in. So I'm going to read
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: you another piece here from in pursuit, he writes. While scouting,
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: first needed is a proper frame of mind which will
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: gear the senses to alertness and observation and yet allow
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: the imagination to wander a bit too. Many hunters regard
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: scouting as a necessary evil, something to toil at while
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: they would rather be socializing or glued to the boob tube.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: When such an attitude is present, they may as well
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: forget the scouting, for most of the time will be wasted.
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: Proper scouting technique is an art form of creative reasoning
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: in which the number one component is imagination. The key
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: is to combine this imagination with reality to produce an
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: experience of total involvement, much like daydreaming. Your legs and
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: body are merely a vehicle to transport you from place
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: to place. In this mental condition, one can transpose himself
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: from the role of hunter to that of the hunted.
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: It is even possible to develop the ability to be
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: both at the same time. I would suppose that is
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: where the saying thinking like a deer came from the
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: saying is not very accurate, since you are really trying
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: to imagine what a deer would do under certain circumstances
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: based upon your past observations of deer behavior, rather than
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: what he's actually thinking. In this way, the mind can
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: put the evidence seen and felt into a variety of
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: situations for analyzation and avoid the common mistake of jumping
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: to a single minded, usually erroneous conclusion. Imagination, creativity, art.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: I love the fact that Roger uses these words to
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: describe the mindset we need while scouting. He also I
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: might read this later. I can't remember if I wrote
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: this down as something to include here or not, but
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: Roger makes a point in several of his books to
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: mention that scouting maybe is best done on your own
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: and not with another person, because if you're not with
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: another person, you're distracted from connecting these dots. You're just
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: simply taking stuff in and talking about it with somebody else,
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: but you are not having your imagination and your creativity
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: fully engaged. Because this is the key thing that I
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: think Roger's getting at here in these pages is that
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: while you're out there, you can't just you know, notice, oh,
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: there's a rub or oh there's a scrape. You need
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: to be trying to think what was the deer doing
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: when he made this sign? Why was he passing through here?
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: Why was he doing this? What set of circumstances is
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: put that deer here? Where did that deer come from?
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: Where was that deer going? Why was he here? What
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: time was he here? All of these questions require imagination.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: They require you to be fully engaged when you're out there.
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: I think that is so important, huge lesson here. Do
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: not mindlessly scout just to check a box. If you're
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: going to be scouting, fully get into it, fully take
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: in what's out there, but then analyze it.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: Answer those questions.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: Always be asking why we're going to get back to
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: this more because Roger brings this up over and over
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: and over again.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: So I want to let's see here.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: I want to next discuss another aspect of that, one
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: of these questions that Roger's always asking, which is when
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: when he's scouting, He's always trying to answer the question
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: of when did this happen? How recent was this? Is
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: this sign from the last rut? Is this sign from
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: last week? Is this sign from today? So let's get
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: into a couple different examples of that. So, in regards
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: to scouting and understanding the timing, the proper time and
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: really putting together, you know how to be in the
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: right place at the right time based on that scouting.
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: Roger says when scouting an area, you must always be
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: mindful of the fact that all the knowledge you will
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: accumulate must eventually be correlated to put you in that
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: one particular spot at the right time. This is not
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: to say there's only one spot where the buck can
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: be taken, but rather that you can only be one
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: place at any given time. Therefore, you must try to
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: match your situation to his. Knowing exactly when the sign
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: was made is of the utmost importance if one is
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: to derive from it a working knowledge of the pattern
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: of movement and use in the area. The simplest and
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: most certain way of knowing is by checking periodically. This
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: may have to be done daily if conditions warranted. Naturally,
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: when the hunting's season is in full swing, one cannot
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: spend all of his time scouting and checking. Therefore, it's
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: essential that the hunter becomes so familiar with the activity
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: within his area before season that he can quickly spot
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: check one or two places to know whether the deer
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: are present there and what they are doing. Becoming that
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: familiar with an area requires a lot of time and observation.
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: Some regard a casual stroll through a hunting area as
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: a scouting session. Such a meager effort will hardly allow
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: one to skin the surface and may well serve to mislead.
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: I usually spend at least half a dozen trips of
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: two to three hours each into a new area before
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: I really begin to get a true understanding of it.
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: After that, the real learning begins. I firmly believe that
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: it's imperative to hunt a small area well rather than
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: to try to cover half a county. So a couple
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: of really important things there. Number One, scouting out of
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: the season so well that you know what's going on,
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: so that in season when you do continue that scouting,
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: you don't need to be scouting every single day, but
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: you can achieve with a handful of quick trips, efficient trips,
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: careful trips of in season scouting. You can just get
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: updates on what you already knew. You can say, okay,
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: all this stuff I learned in March and April May,
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: now I just want to confirm it, or now I
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: just want to see if it's turned on again, or
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: now I want to see if this changing conditions has
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: gotten the deer out there. That's a way to combine
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: kind of postseason and off season scouting with in season scouting.
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: And then I think something Roger mentioned there is interesting,
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: which is this idea that you know, he would rather,
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: you know, understand and hunt a small area really well
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: rather than trying to, you know, hunt a half county
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: and spread himself thin. So this idea of like an
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: inch wide but a mile deep is his approach to
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: hunting he prefers versus the you know, mile wide inch deep,
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: which I think some of us are guilty of today,
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: in which we try to have a thought in different
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: hunting spots and we try to have cameras all over
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: the place, and we're trying to find that one big
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: giant buck, and we're kind of bouncing from place to
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: place to place to place. Roger advocates for a much
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: more focused approach, and really much of what he preaches
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: is about having a deep, intimate understanding of a spot,
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: of a specific deer, whatever your goal is, really diving
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: deep versus this kind of scattershot approach that sometimes we
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: fall prey to these days. So he is recommending a
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: few things that you know, we all know today, and
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: again he kind of pioneered all this right, the postseason
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: scouting being that best time to see what happened during
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: the run. He talks a lot about getting out there,
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: you know, right after the season, or even you know,
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: if you fill your tag, you know, continuing to scout
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: through the hunting season those places so you can see
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: what's actually happening then after the season, especially if the
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: snow you know, melts off for you in you know,
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: late February or March or April, whenever that is. He
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: is a strong advocate of that postseason scouting when you
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: can see rut sign As we'll discuss, Roger was a
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: big rut hunter. He advocates really focusing a lot of
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: our time during that pre rot and rot time phase,
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: so finding the scrapes, finding the rubs and clearly knowing
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: when they were made.
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: That is key to his approach.
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: Of course, trails tracks, understanding all that is a particular importance,
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: but scrapes are huge in Rogers world.
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: We're going to get to that.
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: Finally, something he mentions that I think is worth kind
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: of keying in on is scouting for wind. We talked
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: about this with Mark Drury just last week on the podcast.
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: But Roger in some of his writings has advocated actually
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: scouting in the off season or in season when you're
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: hunting on what wind currents are doing, how thermals impact wind,
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: and specific locations so that you can eventually have you know,
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: an understanding of well, well, on this property with a
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: west wind, it actually goes this way. On this other property,
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: when you've got a northerly wind, it's actually more like
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: a northeast or maybe this hillside impacts wind in a
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: certain way. You know, those types of ideas have continued today.
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: For example, I remember Neil and Craig Doherty frequently writing
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: in their books and work about the idea of building
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: a wind map, so actually going out and testing the
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: wind throughout the year in your key hunting locations, so
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: you know, okay, you know exactly what I said, but
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: actually putting it on a map, so when you look
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: at the map you can see, okay, from this stand
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: with a west wind, it actually does this thing or
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: that thing. That is very important stuff to have that
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: goes back down to this like deep intimate understanding of
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: your property in a way that can really impact your hunts.
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: I mean, I had this exact thing happened to me
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: just the other day where I had this realization that, oh, wow,
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: the wind here when it said that it's a north wind,
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: it actually is more of a northwest wind in reality.
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: And I took note of that during the hunt, and
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: I filed it away in my memory banks saying, hey,
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: in the future, you need to remember, if you want
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: to hunt this particular place, if it says north wind,
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: you should just assume it's going to be more westerly.
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: Because now, time after time I've been to this zone
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: thinking it would be a north wind and instead I
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: get this westerly push. I can't explain why, but it
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: just happens. So I am going to now, you know,
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: better be prepared. I will be better prepared for future hunts.
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: And really, I wish I had figured this out years ago.
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: Would have saved me a number of frustrating sits and
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: educated deer. Another thing that Roger mentions in some of
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: his writings about his scouting is the fact that he
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: likes to, you know, be repetitious with his scouting and
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: continues it in the off season right on through the season,
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: and talks about that even in season. He actually does
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: not mind deer smelling his tracks because he wants those
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: deer to get used to his presence. He specifies, he
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: doesn't want this to happen in those places where bucks
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: feel most secure, but if these deer can get used
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: to him, you know, semi frequently coming in and checking
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: out certain areas, checking out a scrape location, checking a
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: trail on these like semi secure but not you know,
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: actual betting years, that's a good thing for him because
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: these deer will eventually become some condition to his consistent
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: light presence in the area as he's scouting and observing,
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: and then eventually when he goes there to hunt, it's
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: nothing new. They're used to this, and this echoes, you know,
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: stuff that we're hearing today from people like Lee Lakowski
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: or doctor Grant Woods in which they talk about how
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: their consistent presence on their farms, checking trail cameras or
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: doing habitat work or whatever it might be, they're doing
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: that in such a way on a consistent bait, on
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: a consistent basis on purpose for the exact same reasons
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: that Roger was. They were conditioning deer to what a
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: certain level of human activity will look like. That these
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: deer become used to, and then as a hunter, you
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: can take advantage of that because as long as what
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: you do during hunting season seems close to what they
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: are used to you doing all year round, deer aren't
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: going to freak out about it. This is something that
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: you know you can see in the suburbs right or
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: in a city park or something. Deer get used to
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: people doing certain things. As long as you stick to
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: that certain thing, or at least it looks like you're
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: sticking to that certain thing, we'll give you the free pass.
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: But as soon as something changes, when that happens, and
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: then all of a sudden, red flags start popping up.
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: So Roger I think part of why he was preaching
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: this year round scouting, even in season, was that deer
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: will get used to a certain amount of it and
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: you can take advantage of that. So interesting point. Another
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: scouting factor that he was really looking at where tracks.
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: This is pre trial cameras, so tracks told a lot.
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: That was how Roger was identifying specific bucks. That's how
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: he was identifying if mature buck was in the area,
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: and he gives some very concrete information here about how
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: to identify a mature buck track. I want to read
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: you this very very helpful, and I think something that
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: all of us can keep in our back pocket.
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: He writes here about tracks, the.
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: Size alone is usually enough to separate the big bucks
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: tracks from those of other deer in the area. Any
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: clearly defined track over three inches long may be accepted
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: as trophy material and will warrant further observation to qualify
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: the rack carried by their maker as trophy class. Careful
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: inspection of such tracks is necessary because in a normal walk,
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: the hind foot will often be placed directly upon the
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: front track and may make it appear much larger than
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: it actually is. We hear frequently of tracks the size
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: of a Shetland pony. The largest I've ever measured were
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: tracks three and seven eighths in which is long, and
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: this buck ended up weighing three hundred and twenty four pounds.
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: The age and conditions of the buck can be estimated
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: by the condition of the.
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: Tracks he makes.
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: An older buck gets knock kneed and his front feet
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: turn out his hooves will be worn rounded on the front,
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: and the track will be flat. A younger buck walks
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: on the tips of his toes. More, a buck in
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: his prime will walk sprightly enough so that his hind
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: feet will reach his front tracks, and older bucks hind
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: feet will fall short of his front tracks as he walks. Okay,
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: few thinks here any clearly defined track over three inches
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: long maybe accepted as trophy material.
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: So three inches or longer was one of the key things.
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: The biggest track he ever saw from a three hundred
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: and twenty four pound buck was about a four inch
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: long track.
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: All right, take note of that.
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: Another thing here, an older buck will have his front
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: feet turn out, so if you see tracks where the
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: front track is turned out, that might indicate a mature buck.
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: He also mentions that an older buck will have a
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: rounded fronts and that the tracks will be flat. The
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: way I interpret that is kind of what we talk
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: about when we talk about identifying mature bucks, and that
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: you will see the full track as well as the
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: dew clause behind it, like that fully pressed in track,
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: while with a younger buck you often do not see
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: the dew clause pressed in because, as Roger says, they're
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: kind of more upright. I think that's really interesting. And
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: then to mention, he says that a younger buck, a
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: buck in his prime, will walk so spry that his
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: hind feet will reach all the way to his front track,
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: so you can see a backtrack and a front track
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: almost lined up, while with an older buck, his hind
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: feet will fall short of his front tracks as he walks.
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: So some interesting observations there to keep in mind as
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: you pay attention to tracks which Roger advocates for, which
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: Rogers constantly doing throughout his stories in his book Whitetail Magic.
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: This is mostly a set of stories, and in many
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: of those stories you will see that the way that
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: he found the buck he's gonna hunt was by identifying
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: a big track, and then he would come back time
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: and time again and see did those did those big
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: unique tracks show up on the trail again or were
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: they pressed into the scrape again? And that's how he
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: would be able to determine if these bucks were back
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: in the area, if these bucks were frequenting them, whether
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: or not he should start hunting aggressively. Tracks a big
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: deal then still big deal today. Trail cameras of course,
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: we lean on so much, but they only show you
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: a very small slice of what's going on out there.
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: I think more and more of us are coming to
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: find that we might be depending on them too much.
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: They show us a tiny window, when actually what's going
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: on out there is so much wider.
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: Tracks can help fill in that picture.
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: So I think cameras can be part of a wide
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: swath of scouting intel, they should not be the entirety
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: of it. So in addition to cameras that in season
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: scouting on the ground it's going to be very important.
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: Tracks are a part of what Roger advocates looking for.
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: He also, probably more than anything else, advocates for scouting
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: for scrapes. He spends a lot of time talking about scrapes.
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: This was his big unlock. He describes this as really
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: being the key that led to him going from just
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: killing deer to killing consistently big mature bucks. When he
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: figured out how deer use scrapes, how they visit them,
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: and how he can set up on them. That was
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: probably his big Aha moment. And he describes what you
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: should be looking for and how to identify three different
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: kinds of scrapes. And I want to cover some of
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: those now. First off, let's read a little bit here
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: about why they are important to him.
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: He writes, the real key.
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: To hunting the big bucks is to locate their scrape areas.
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: There's an old buck hunting a dodge that states, you
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: find fresh tracks, you know where deer has recently been,
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: you find fresh rubs, you know where a buck has
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: recently been. But when you find a fresh scrape, you
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: know where a buck is soon going to be. While
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: this statement may not be of one, may not be
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: one hundred percent true, it does provide the very best
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: odds possible for assurance of a shot at the buck
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: of your choice. All right, So he views scrapes and
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: as we'll get to a certain kind of scrape as
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: the number one way to assure yourself of opportunities at
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: a mature buck.
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: As we get into.
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: There will be three different kinds of scrapes that we're
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: going to talk about, boundary scrapes, secondary scrapes, and primary scrapes.
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: And much of what I will read you here about
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: scrapes will echo other hunters today. Especially I can see
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: the work of John Eberhart likely having been influenced by
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: Roger because much of what Roger wrote about here in
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: the seventies and eighties, John has taken into the two
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: thousands and applied to his hunt situations. Some of the
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: verbiage is a little bit different in some of the specifics,
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: but I can definitely see echoes of that which I
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: find really interesting, especially the whole primary scrape thing. So
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: let's read here a little bit about you know how
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: to identify what a boundary scrape is, what a secondary
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: scrape is, and what a primary scrape is, what those
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: things mean, and you know how to think about that
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: as you were scouting and then later hunting them. So first,
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: how do we id these? We'll read another quick excerpt.
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: All right, boundary scrapes. These scrapes are the earliest found
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: and are exactly what the name implies. They will be
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: found along the edges of woodcover, as well as along fence,
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: rows and creeks where limbs or branches hang low enough
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: to be reached by antlers. They indicate that there is
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: a young buck in the area, but are of little
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: more present use than that. Most will be made then
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: completely neglected, while new ones are made nearby with the
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: same eventual fate. Beginning scrape hunters very often find and
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: try to hunt these boundary scrapes because they are the
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: most easily found. Usually they are disappointed. So these are
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: the scrapes that you know, we have talked about for
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: years on this podcast, that show up on field edges,
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: that show up in open timber.
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: These are also the scrapes.
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: That many new scrape hunters, many new hunters, as Roger said,
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: they'd go and try to hunt these scrapes and don't
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: see anything, or they just see a young buck. And
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: that's because what we have found. Roger mentioned that these
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: are mostly made by young bucks. That may be true,
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: but also what recent findings have shown is that those
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: kinds of scrapes are mostly made and visited after dark,
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: so they are not too terribly useful for us as hunters.
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: The second kind of scrape would be the secondary scrape,
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: and these are the scrapes that Roger describes as being
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: one layer back. These are the scrapes that are made
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: on trails but are back into the cover a little bit.
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: He mentions in pursuit of trophy white tails that you
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: can have some success on them, especially for younger to
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: middle aged bucks, but this is not the key thing.
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: He is focusing on the one thing he does mention
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: about secondary scrapes that they might be important for, in
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: particulars for those of us who are hunting mature bucks.
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: He says that a secondary scrape can serve as a thermometer,
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: and I want to read to you exactly what he
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: means by that. He says, locating and reading the secondary
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: scrapes has a far more important function in the taking
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: of a trophy buck than that of actually hunting them.
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: It is the thermometer of the rut and will give
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: the clues necessary to predicting the exact time of the
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: peak rout period. To come to do this, one must
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: locate several secondary scrapes in different areas. The more the better,
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: But the hunter must govern his time so as not
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: to spread himself too thin and not be able to
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: keep almost daily track of these scrapes. If he has
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: done ample scouting early, he'll be able to check an
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: area quickly by examining a few key spots in the
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: area to determine the deer usage and how often the
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: scrapes are normally being hit. As the activity picks up
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: on these scrapes, usually in late October, it will generally
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: be evident in all areas simultaneously. So, in other words,
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: he recommends scouting in the off season to find where
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: these back in the cover scrapes might be, having a
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: full understanding of where those spots are, and then in
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: season doing a semi regular check of those secondary scrape
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: locations throughout the season until all of a sudden, all
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: at once, those handful of spots that you've chosen to
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: be your checkpoints, when those all of a sudden blow up,
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: now you can confirm, oh.
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the rut is about to start popping.
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: That was kind of his way of gauging the heat factor,
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: the the testosterone rise. As soon as the secondary scrapes
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: really start blowing up, Now it's go time. It's time
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: to focus on being out there in the field, more
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: time to get into my best spots and as we
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: will get to, time to start hunting primary scrape areas.
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: So an important thing if you find these next level
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: back in the cover scrapes, identify those as those secondary spots,
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: keep tabs on them.
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: Of course, we do have cameras now, and that can
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: give us another glimpse into what's happening on these scrape locations.
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: So maybe we don't need to go check all of
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: them in person, as he recommends. Maybe we can put
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: cameras on those scrapes to keep tabs on things. And
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: as soon as we start seeing those cameras light up,
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: all right, it's go time. I think a lot of
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: people are already doing this. It's really interesting that what
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: we are doing today with cameras mirror is what Roger
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: was saying that we should do on foot. There might
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: be something to be said though, about doing more of
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: us in person and seeing it on the ground and
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: getting more than just that little snapshot of the scrape,
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: but actually seeing all the sign around it as well too. Now,
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: primary scrapes, this is the big one. This is what
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: Roger keys in on. This is what he says was
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: the big unlock for him when he realized what a
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: primary scrape area was, why they were made, how they
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: were made, and how to hunt them. So I want
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: to read to you what you know what Roger was
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: meaning when he describes this, and then some more about
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: you know, how we can take action on this. The
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: primary rut scrapes greatly resemble secondary scrapes and looks in
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: size and sometimes even in location. However, whereas the secondary
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: scrapes were placed on active deer trails, the primary scrapes
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: are strategically placed and then the trails are made to them.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: This is evident by the several obvious trails converging on them.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: Once such a breeding area is located and the primary
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: scrape spotted, that bowhunter will never have a better opportunity
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: for taking a real trophy buck. So the key thing here,
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: and he mentions this in a number of different places.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: Primary scrapes are located in a strategic location back in
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: what he calls a betting area, and then they become
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: the hub of the wheel. So we'll get to this.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: I think there's an example here where.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: He describes some of these spots. But what I think
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: he's referring to in a lot of these writings is
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: nasty thick cover, i e. Doll betting airs. These dough
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: betting airs are places where much of the running activity
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: that we see today happens. It's where a lot of
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: us focus our efforts. It's where a lot of these
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: bucks focus their efforts, and because of that, you tend
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: to get these big primary scrape areas.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: Again, back to John Iberhart, he talks.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: About primary scrape areas which are just like what Roger's
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: describing here back in thick cover and their hubs of
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: a wheel where you'll see, like imagine a thermal hub,
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: like a low spot with a bunch of points dropping
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: down into it.
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: How many of us have found somewhere like that?
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: And then there's a huge scrape down the bottom, all
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: sorts of trails leading into it, multiple scrapes, multiple spots
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: all around that big like car hood size scrape. That's
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: a primary scrape. That's what John Eberhart loves. That's what
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: Roger Rothar loves. These are the types of scrapes that
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: do seem to be, you know, worth hunting.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: Still today, a.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: Lot of people talk about it, and Roger absolutely discussed
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: that as well. Continuing on, Roger says this, when scouting
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: for primary scrapes, eventually we will discover small areas that
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: are literally torn to pieces with trails and scrapes. Usually
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: these spots will be on a ridge top or flat
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: in hilly areas, or in thickets of second growth or
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: crab apples, hawthorn or scrub pinoak in more level country.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: In farm country, I find them in small dozed in
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: woodlots left standing in the middle of large fields, as
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: well as the few remaining swamp thickets along creek bottoms. However,
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: type of cover seems to be less important than strategic
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: location to the placing of primary scrapes. So again, I
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: think the point here is that these primary scrapes are
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: located in strategic spots that have a convergence of deer activity,
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: in particular dose, where those dough hot spots are where
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: a lot of travel all of a sudden converges on them,
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: you tend to find these primary The primary scrapes are
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: these mega scrapes that are like a hub with multiple
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: trails and travel corridors and like signs, all kind of
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: converging in that zone, in that thick, nasty bedding cover.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: If you find that, you've got what Roger would call
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: a primary scrape area and your best chance to kill
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: a mature buck. So let's move from there. I feel
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: like that kind of covers some of the high level
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: scraping ideas. Let's move to some of his actual hunting ideas. Now,
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: a key point here is in Roger's mind, he probably
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: would say that there's no difference between the two he
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: would probably tell you that the scouting elements that we
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: just talked about are just as much hunting as actually,
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: you know, sitting in the field with your bow. So
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: maybe I shouldn't have even split this thing up into
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: two sections at all, because maybe the biggest lesson of
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: all from Roger is that scouting, learning, observing, having that
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: free flowing imagination while you're out there in the field
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: and trying to connect the dots that is hunting. That
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: maybe is Roger's greatest message. But we'll continue into some
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: more here, and actually before we move on to the
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: hunting side, I do have one more passage here from
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: him that I think, maybe even more eloquently sums up
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: what I just try to describe to you. He writes this,
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: I think most hunters know that there's value in scouting
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 2: ahead of the hunt, and if you even know how
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: important it really is, very few realize the importance of
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: year round scouting beyond that of detecting deer sign. I'm
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: referring to the advantage gained by feeling you are a
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: part of the environment.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: I know that when.
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: I've been unable to get into the woods for several weeks,
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: I feel like a stranger when I finally get out again.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: Continuous contact with nature has a way of enveloping one
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: until you finally become part of it. You get to
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: know trees on a first named basis as good old friends,
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: and I find myself mentally talking to them. Sometimes they answer,
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: I feel sorry for those who must be slaves to
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: all the supposed advantages of modern technology to convince themselves
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: their bowhunters.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: It's sort of like they're.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: Sitting in a room of scientific paraphernalia shooting through an
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: open window into a wilderness.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: They're trying to make.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: The natural order of things conformed to their philosophies, philosophies
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: which were incidentally formed by equipment manufacturers and salesmen, rather
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: than common sense, understanding and conscious.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: At any rate, perhaps.
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: Many of the readers of this will understand why I
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: am so hard to get in touch with so much
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: of the time, why so many letters go unanswered and
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: articles and books remain unwritten. It also explains why I
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: wear out a complete set of Camo each year, and
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: why hunting boots designed to last ten years seldom make
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: it more than halfway through their second year of use.
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: It might even explain some of the trophy racks hanging
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: on my wall.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: How good is that?
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: I think that just absolutely nails it so as far
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: as hunting. Right back to that message right there, he
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 2: talks about the importance of being in the field, having
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: this deep, thorough understanding of your environment, of your corey.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: I mean scouting the off season. That means being in
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: the field a lot in order to see what's happening,
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: in order to let serendipity happen to you as well.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: I want to redo something here where he echoes that sentiment.
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: Thorough knowledge and understanding will not make the taking of
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: a trophy white tail easy. It will merely make it possible.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: Several cardinal rules must be strictly adhered to in order
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: to fully make use of this accumulated knowledge. The first
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: of these, and probably the most important, is the necessity
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: to spend as much time as possible in the field.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: This may mean missing favorite programs on the boob tube
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: or a meal now and then. A drenched or frozen
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: tail is also commonplace, but the of success are compounded
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: in your favor with each extra moment you sacrifice. In effect,
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 2: you must hunt him at his convenience, not at yours.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: Let me read that again, you must hunt him at
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 2: his convenience, not at yours. Roger's a legend for a reason.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: I think sentences like that, I think, you know, thoughts
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: like what I've just read to you here in the
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: last couple of minutes truly illustrate the wisdom that he
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: is sharing here and that we can that we can
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: learn from. So much of today's modern deer hunting culture
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: and approach tends to be about making it convenient. Again,
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: it tends to be about minimizing the time you have
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: to spend the field. It tends to be about how
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: to you know, watch from afar and then go in
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: and strike, you know, one time, and have this big
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 2: giant buck on your wall, or to post a picture
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: of him. And I have been guilty of talking about
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 2: all of these things myself, but I think Roger's point
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 2: here is a really good one. It's that being out
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: there in the elements, at the whims of this natural
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 2: world not only will lead to more success than the field,
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: but also lead to a better experience, which is what
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 2: this whole thing is supposed to be about. Amazing so
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: scrapes when it comes to hunting. Roger really spends a
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: lot of time on setting up on scrapes. As I
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: mentioned earlier, primary scrapes were his big unlock. Of course,
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: there's other ways that he hunts too. There are stories
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 2: in Whitetail Magic and some ideas in this one in
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: which he discusses the importance of hunting inside corners. He
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: discusses the importance of hunting certain food sources and trails,
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 2: but really much of his success stems around primary scrape areas.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: Sometimes he specifically has a scrape that is like what
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: he's hunting. Other times it is a zone which I
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: think now we would just call it a dough betting area.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 2: He is keying in on and being downwind of that
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: and having his success. So I think we should cover
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: a few of those specifics here.
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: First.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: I want to talk about how he sets up on
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 2: his stand spots, or how he sets up on scrapes,
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: how he picks a place to hunt once he finds
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: one of these dough betting areas or primary scrape areas.
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: There's a pretty good example here in his in Pursuit.
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: All right, so this is once he found once he
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: scouted and found his primary scrape ereer. He says in
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: picking My stand spot. I prefer not to sit directly
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: over a scrape, instead a tree some yards away that
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: will allow me to catch the buck as he approaches
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: it is chosen. My goal is to again use his
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: cautiousness against him, since he will likely be approaching with
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: great care and with his attention focused upon the scrape.
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: Such a position, if properly selected, should also put me
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 2: out of the scent stream of air passing through the
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: scrape which he is going to be using to check it.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: This places me properly for the kill, and yet will
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: allow me to let all sub trophy deer pass without
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 2: detecting me. I find that the really productive primary scrapes
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: of the breeding areas are usually so located that air
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: movement and terrain are a definite disadvantage to the hunter.
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 2: Such strategic placement of the scrapes evolved through the successful
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: use and acceptance by generations of wise old bucks. They
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: must be very carefully scouted, studied, and analyzed in order
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: to be used successfully.
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: Habitually.
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: They'll be located in second growth areas where trees are
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 2: too small for good trees stand support, yet dense enough
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 2: to provide cover.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna move through a few of these specifics.
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 2: He mentions that multiple trunks and motionless standing works best
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: for these. A clear small stepping spot so there will
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 2: be no twigs or leaves in the ground to foil
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 2: quiet movement.
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: To my stand, I'm very.
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 2: Careful to make as little disturbance as possible when climbing
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: into it.
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: All.
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 2: This is very important because of the strong possibility of
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 2: a buck being very close when dealing with the old
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 2: world wise bucks, you are only allowed to make one mistake,
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 2: you are not likely to get a chance to make
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: a second. I mentioned earlier how older bucks become hesitant
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: to come completely into a scrape after younger bucks have
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 2: started using it. This also applies to primary scrapes in
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 2: the breeding area. After one of these scrapes has been
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: active for several days, I start looking for a secondary
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: route he might be using to scent check it for
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: dough smell. It will usually be the safest, most discrete
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: approach possible to the prevailing downwind side of the scrape.
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 2: In so doing, he will eventually create his own travel
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 2: pattern throughout the breeding area. Unraveling this pattern is the
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 2: real key to taking the buck. So to echo some
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 2: of the scouting into their primary scrapes are in these
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: dough betting areas, these thickets, these nasty spots strategically located
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 2: where there's a convergence of deer travel and a convergence
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 2: of scent, especially to or in the rut. I think
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 2: his big finding here was that sometimes, if you were
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 2: trying to kill the big mature buck, setting up right
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 2: in the scrape is not the best approach, but rather
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 2: to be downwind of that scrape. This is something that
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: we've heard people like not just John Eberhart, but Dan
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: in Fault talk about about how mature bucks oftentimes will jayhook.
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 1: I think maybe even the.
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 2: Tequistos have talked about this. They will jayhook through betting years.
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: They will jayhook when checking scrapes. Again, it comes down
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: to scent. They want to scent check this stuff. They
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 2: don't always want to walk right into it and right
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 2: through it. Sometimes they can simply walk downwind of it
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 2: and learn everything that they need to know. Rogers saw this,
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: and because of that, he started setting up further and
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 2: further on the downwind side of these features to put
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: himself in a position to observe, but then have that
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: buck still be upwind of him.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: When they did come through. That's a pretty key thing.
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 2: Here's another example, So this one he's talking about how
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 2: different age class bucks seem to relate to these scrapes.
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: This is pretty interesting. I found that up through the
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 2: age class of three and a half years old, the
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 2: same basic strategy will apply. Hunting on or near scrapes
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: and trails and heavily used deer areas will produce opportunities
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: for taking one and a half and two and a
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 2: half year old bucks during the pre rut, as well
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: as three and a half year olds during and through
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 2: the rut. The older of these bucks will naturally be
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 2: scarcer and less active during daylight hours, but still will
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 2: be involved in most of the ritual running activity since
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 2: they are very likely going to be displaced by more
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 2: dominant bucks when the breeding actually begins. In other words,
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 2: they're still vying for a place of dominance, so they're
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: going to be in there kicking butck as long as
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 2: they can and hoping for a piece of the action,
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 2: so to speak. It is on these bucks that the rattling, grunting, mock.
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 1: Scrapes, etc. Will work to some degree.
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 2: Mostly though, it's just a matter of reading the sign
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 2: and being there as much as possible until something happens,
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 2: while never forgetting that all the usual precautionary measures such
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: as wind direction, stand placement, and careful stand entry are
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 2: still vitally important.
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 1: Now. While scrapes are still the nucleus of.
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 2: My rut hunting strategy, I must point out that as
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 2: each advancing age class of buck is encountered, my setup
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 2: becomes further away from the scrape location itself. The two
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 2: and a half year olds, as well as the occasional
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 2: three year olds, can be taken right off the scrape site,
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 2: provided the wind direction and geography, the location offers the
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 2: opportunity to make a stand where the smarter bucks can't
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 2: approach from downwind. Situations which provide such an advantage are few,
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 2: but are now and then available. Most frustrated scrape hunters
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 2: are either hunting the wrong scrape at the wrong time,
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 2: or two trying to hunt the scrape too closely and
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 2: are being detected, usually from far enough away that they
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 2: don't realize it's happened. Mock scrapes can, if properly done,
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 2: help minimize this problem, since it can be located at
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 2: a spot advantageous to the hunter. However, The only case
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 2: I've ever known of a real trophy class buck being
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 2: taken off such a scrape was when he followed a
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 2: hot dough to one. Some of the more mature bucks
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: are frequently party to the first opening of perennial scrapes,
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 2: but then tend to shy away as the activity by
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 2: other deer begins to gravitate towards it. He obviously realizes
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 2: that all that activity will draw dangerous attention to the area.
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 2: It's not like he loses interest, or rather just stands
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 2: back and lets the kids make fools of themselves. His
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 2: involvement may or may not include actual visits to the scrape,
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: but if it does, you can bet extreme caution will
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 2: be exercised. More likely, he will take up a place
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 2: of vigilance where he can keep tabs on the activity
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 2: at the scrape through scent, sight, or hearing. While the
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 2: actual visits might be nocturnal, bucks older than four and
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 2: a half years old will be even more cautious and
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 2: seldom actually visit the scrape site, choosing instead to monitor
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 2: the bottlenecks in corridors which traveling doughs are using while
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 2: passing through or visiting scrape barriers. So again, this sounds
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 2: like what we've talked about already. This sounds like being
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 2: downwind of dough betting areas, being downwind of that major
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 2: hub scrape in that dough hot spot. This is something
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 2: that people are having success with today and that Roger
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 2: was really pioneering in the eighties and nineties, and that
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 2: we can still be putting into action now as well.
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 2: So all of that said with this point that he
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 2: makes about the fact that you need to be thinking about,
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 2: you know, being downwind of these scrapes, being downwind of
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 2: these dough hot spots, these these primary scrape areas that
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 2: you know, I think is a high level example of
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 2: something that he talks about in many other examples, which
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 2: is the implications of wind in general and how deer
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 2: use wind. He's often talking about, you know, earlier and scouting.
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 2: We need to be scouting for wind also while you're hunting,
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 2: observing how deer use the wind. Something writes here is
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 2: something that a lot of the best hunters today are
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 2: still trying to do, which is giving deer the illusion
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 2: of a wind advantage. I want to write to you exactly,
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 2: I want to read to you what he says about that,
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 2: and this is something that I'm sure you've heard before
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 2: spoken by someone in the modern day. He says, it
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 2: is hard to imagine that even the most cunning buck
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 2: does not let his guard down once in a while.
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 2: After all, he can't walk into the wind all the time,
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 2: and the rut can definitely coax even a crafty buck
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 2: whose normal lifestyle is practically one hundred percent nocturnal into
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 2: daylight movement, even though it will make him especially vulnerable.
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 2: One must keep in mind at all times that deer
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 2: must constantly make choices and play the odds. Whenever exposing
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 2: himself to danger, he will invariably choose the move that
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 2: is least risky. Moving crosswind is less risky than moving
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 2: with a tail wind, et cetera. I feel that my
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 2: thinking along these lines of reasoning have been responsible for
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 2: many of the opportunities that have developed for me. My
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 2: favorite setup is one that is almost wrong for me
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: and almost right for the deer, the keyword being almost so. Again,
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 2: my favorite setup is one that is almost wrong for
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 2: me and almost right for the deer. So the deer
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 2: is using this area because he has a wind advantage
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 2: of some kind, because he can scent check the betting area,
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 2: or scent check a scrape. But you are set up
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 2: in such a way that your wind is blowing just
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 2: off of that. So his advantage from a wind perspective
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 2: is just not quite right. We spent a lot of
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 2: time talking about this with Adam Hayes back on our
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 2: first or second podcast with Adam, we detailed exactly how
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 2: he tries to set up with these just off winds,
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 2: these cutting the corner winds where the wind is good
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 2: for the deer most of the way, but then there's
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 2: a little feature, an edge, a ditch, a pond, a cliff,
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 2: something that keeps the deer from getting just to where
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 2: your wind is blowing. That is a key thing that
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 2: works now, and Roger was kind of setting the stage
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 2: four decades ago. One last thing here on a hunting
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 2: perspective that when I read Roger write this, I thought
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 2: to myself, ad that that sounds like me.
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 1: He talked about not outsmarting yourself.
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 2: And he was detailing this in the story of his
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 2: He had been hunting this really impressive buck, a mainframe
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 2: eight pointer with four drop times coming down off underneath
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 2: every one of those regular times, and he ended up
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 2: seeing this buck come out of a fence row, and
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 2: he adjusted his location the next time to try to
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 2: be right where that buck.
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: Came out last time.
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 2: And the buck does come out, but he comes out
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 2: where he was the day before, right. And this is
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 2: the idea of like chasing bucks and then you know,
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 2: being one step too far behind. I've done this so
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 2: many times, I think a lot of us have. We
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 2: have heard time and time again the importance of the
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 2: first sip right, the fact that you can hunt somewhere
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 2: and surprise a buck there, you have an advantage and
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 2: that can be great. And also we've heard a lot
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 2: about the benefits of mobile deer hunting and the idea
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 2: that you can hunt different places all the time and
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 2: you can see deer do something one day and then
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 2: try to take advantage of that. There's a lot of
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 2: ways that can help you as a hunter. But I've
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 2: also found that you can also chase your tail, that
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 2: you can also outsmart yourself, as.
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 1: Roger here will describe.
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 2: Because deer are less predictable than we sometimes like to
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 2: think that they are. I think we sometimes try to
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 2: put them in a box. We sometimes try to, you know,
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 2: create rules around Oh well, mature bucks do this thing,
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 2: or mature bucks do that thing, or if I saw
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 2: him do it this thing yesterday, then he'll definitely do
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 2: that thing tomorrow. And more often than not, there unpredictable.
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 2: There's a randomness to them. There is a wildness to
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: them that you just simply have to accept and respect. So, yeah,
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 2: you can pattern deer to some degree, you can try
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 2: to predict what they're gonna do to some degree.
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 1: That's a lot of fun. I love trying to do
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: it too, but there's only so much of that you
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 1: can figure out.
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 2: And so Roger here makes a great point in kind
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 2: of admonishing himself for trying to overthink things and that
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 2: nipping him in the butt. So he says, here, after
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 2: making all these moves trying to chase this buck round
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 2: and then seeing the bucks show up where he just was,
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 2: I made one of the most common beginner's mistakes of
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 2: all by not sticking by my choice of a stand position.
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 2: Jumping from stand to stand generally results in being in
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 2: the wrong place at the right time, and doing it
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 2: quite possibly cost me a chance at one of the
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 2: best whitetail bucks I have ever seen a field. Always
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 2: remember that Patience is one of the key ingredients to
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 2: success in trophy whitetail hunting, and tenacity is another. Be
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 2: certain there's ample reason before making such a change. Do
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 2: not outsmart yourself like I did. Guilty as charged on occasion,
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 2: Roger guilty as charge. I want to share with you
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 2: next a story of his.
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 1: Uh.
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 2: One of these stories in Whitetail Magic. And I think
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 2: one of the cool things about that book is that
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 2: the lessons he shares are kind of sprinkled in within
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 2: these larger deer hunting stories.
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 1: And in one of these deer hunting.
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 2: Stories, I thought it perfectly illustrated a bunch of the
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 2: things that I've tried to share with you today, A
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 2: bunch of the ideas and strategies and approaches were actually
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 2: put into action on the buck. So starts out with
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 2: him going on a scouting trip. This scouting trip is
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 2: happening in the early spring. He says, he's out there
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 2: in March. He's scouting, he's also shooting ground shucks. He said,
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 2: he's out there kind of doing a multipurpose hunt and
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 2: learn as you go type of experience while he's out there.
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 2: And I think this is a great example of being
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 2: out there all year round, imersing yourself. While he's out there,
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 2: he comes across a set of tracks. Now this goes
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 2: back to what we talked about with iding tracks. He
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 2: looks at these tracks and identifies them as big, old,
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 2: mature buck tracks, and he says to himself, all right,
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 2: this is an opportunity to learn something, to connect some dots.
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 2: So he didn't just notice the tracks and say, oh, cool,
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 2: big buck round here. He said, all right, big buck tracks.
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 2: What can I learn from this? How can I connect
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 2: this to something else? So he started following those tracks.
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 2: He followed those tracks for more than a mile and
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 2: a half. So this goes to that tenacity, this coast,
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 2: to that willingness to really get out there and learn
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 2: the landscape. He follows these tracks for more than a
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 2: mile and a half. He gets to a piece of
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 2: timber where there's a nasty, thick, overgrown section. There's an
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 2: old orchard, and there is a I think he said
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 2: there was like a clear cut thicket that now is
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 2: about ten acres of just thick, nasty bedding cover. So
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 2: where this overgrown orchard and this nasty clear cut converge,
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 2: he starts seeing sign He starts seeing.
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 1: Tracks.
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 2: He starts seeing trails, He starts seeing scrapes, including what
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 2: eventually he determines to be you know, signs of a
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 2: primary scrape area, like multiple really big scrapes all in
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 2: the same zone. Problem is that he sees a bunch
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 2: of sheep in the area, and he mentions in the
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 2: book that you know, sheep and deer don't typically, you know,
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 2: mix very well for hunting opportunities. So he determines that,
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 2: you know, this isn't gonna be somewhere I'm gonna hunt
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 2: right now, but I'm gonna keep tabs on it. He
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 2: even goes so far as to pick a tree that
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 2: if he we were going to come back and hunt this,
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 2: he'd want to be on the downwind side of that spot.
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 1: He would want to be set up in such a.
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 2: Way that he could take advantage of that wind and
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 2: hunt a deer coming to.
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 1: That primary scrape.
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 2: Actually, I'm going to read you a bit here where
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 2: he discusses that, because I think the way he thinks
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 2: this through when he found this hot spot, or at
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 2: least a potential hot spot someday, I think it's pretty
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 2: eye opening. So he finds the spot, and he says
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 2: the whole scenario provided the perfect environment for deer, and
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 2: I had even found the perfect spot for a stand
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 2: in a broken maple tree growing on the rim of
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 2: the ravine at the orchard's upper end, upper end, some
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 2: thirty yards from the overgrown woods. I could easily visualize
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 2: an old buck making his rounds, checking the orchard for
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 2: hot doze, and following the rim around to this point
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 2: of entry into the thicket to bed for the day.
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 2: The route, while attractive because of the terrain, would also
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 2: tend to keep the deer in a cross wind all
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 2: along the route and until he had passed the tree stand.
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 2: So not only did he find this zone of interest,
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 2: this terrain and habitat that would probably be a spot
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 2: that's going to attract deer, not only did he see
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 2: the sign that confirmed that with the scrapes and trails
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 2: and stuff. He then also thought about how do I
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 2: position to account for wind to be downwind of it
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 2: to funnel deer movement. All that kind of stuff. He
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 2: maps all that out, He connects all those dots. He
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 2: uses his imagination to imagine how I deer would use this.
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 2: To imagine how a deer would use a crosswind to
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 2: imagine what the wind direction would need to be for
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 2: him to hunt there safely while also giving the deer
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 2: a perceived advantage. He does all that, but also determines
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 2: bat with all the sheep in here, now's not the time.
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 2: Now fast forward. He keeps this in the back of
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 2: his mind. Three years later he hears that the landowner
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 2: sold the sheep. He finds us out in season three
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 2: years later. Right away he's like, all right, I need
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 2: to get out there do some in season scouting.
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 1: See what that place looks like now.
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 2: So in early November he goes out to this place
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 2: at ten am. He's walking through. He scouts his way
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 2: back into this property. He finds that what was mowed
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 2: down vegetation by sheep has now really overgrown. It is
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 2: super thick. It is crisscrossed with highways from deer. Now
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 2: because now that it's thicker, it is even more of
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 2: a dough hotspot, and because of that a buck hotspot.
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 2: There are apples falling, and there are multiple huge scrapes
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 2: in the same zone. Small bushes and saplings are mangled
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 2: around some of these scrapes, all around this one big tree.
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 2: He works his way back to the tree that he
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 2: picked out. He confirms not only that there's those big
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 2: scrapes as there were last time, but he even goes
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 2: and checks and finds really big tracks that tell him
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 2: that this isn't just a bunch of deer, this is
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 2: actually a big mature buck. Two and he sees, you know, yes,
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 2: so he sees those big tracks and big rubs right
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 2: where that major primary scrape zone is. He then comes
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 2: back or two later for the hunt. First hunt sits it.
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 2: He has a lot of faith in that spot, but
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 2: does not see a big shooter buck, but he resists
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 2: the temptation to go bouncing all over the place. He
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 2: has patience and tenacity, returns back to it, hunts it
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 2: the next day, and in the late morning, a big
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 2: buck comes out of this overgrown thicket, hammers those scrapes,
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 2: and Roger gets a shot at him. So you've got
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 2: a whole bunch of these different things we've talked about
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 2: all coming together in one story. You have the off
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 2: season scouting, You have the iding big buck tracks. You
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 2: have the willingness to try to, you know, paint the
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 2: full picture by following the tracks, by seeing where they
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 2: took him, by then being able to identify this terrain
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 2: and habitat hotspot, which is the strategic location that he
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 2: talks about that.
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 1: Bucks like to have primary scrape areas.
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 2: He finds that sign it's not quite right, though when
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 2: he finally does here that it is, he goes back
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 2: in for that in season scouting confirms all these different things.
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 2: I think that's another key point. Do your off seat
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 2: and scouting, but then return in the end season to
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 2: confirm when it's happening, to confirm if now's the time
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 2: to get after all of these things all stacked together
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 2: over a three year time period led to him being
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 2: in the right spot at the right time. It's a
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 2: pretty amazing example, terrific story, and I think just very
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 2: nicely shows us why and how the Roger Rothar method
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 2: can lead to whitetaim magic. And I think this story,
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 2: as I mentioned, you know, illustrates how you know one
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 2: of the key aspects of Roger's strategy, whether it's scouting
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 2: or actually hunting, It goes back to that connecting of
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 2: the dots. It goes back to asking why why is
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 2: this happening, Why is this here?
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 1: Why does deer do this?
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 2: And you know that ultimately leads to this this attempt
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 2: to predict deer movement, to try to predict what these
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 2: deer are going to do.
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 1: And I love there's this quote in the book.
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 2: He mentions that, you know, while we're constantly trying to
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 2: put these deer in a box, we're constantly trying to
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 2: predict why a deer will do something or how a
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 2: deer will do something. He says that another author pointed out,
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 2: and I quote, the mature whitetail buck will do at
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 2: any given time and under any set of circumstances, the
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 2: mature buck will do as he damned well pleases. So
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 2: you know, we might like to think that bucks always
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 2: travel with the wind in their face, or that mature
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 2: bucks always want to, you know, travel in thick cover,
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 2: that mature bucks always prefer to go down wind of
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 2: a scrape or whatever.
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 2: Roger made these types of claims just like we still
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 2: do today. But in the end, they're gonna do whatever
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 2: the damn will please. Because they're wild animals. There's a
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 2: certain randomness to them. As I mentioned earlier, that said,
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 2: we still do need to try to put these puzzle
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 2: pieces together. And there's a great section in here in
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 2: whitetail Magic, where he talks about, you know, how we
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 2: can try to put all these pieces together as he
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 2: did in that hunt I just shared with you. So
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 2: let me read you one of just a couple more
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 2: pieces here before we wrap it up. Roger writes, many
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 2: times we've been told you have to think like a deer.
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 2: Good advice, for sure, but a whole lot easier to
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 2: say than to do. It's difficult enough to try to
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 2: think like another human, even when they happen to have
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 2: the same lifestyle, needs and desires as we do, never
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 2: mind another species of animal. But while the lifestyle of
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 2: deer is far less complex than that of humans, there
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 2: are similarities we can relate to and the problems encountered
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 2: when trying to understand each to the point of trying
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 2: to think like them. In the first place, it's necessary
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 2: to take note of what was done in the past
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 2: and to try to analyze why it was done. The
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 2: next step is to discover what's being done presently and
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 2: to try and determine not only why it's being done,
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 2: but how it relates to what was done.
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 1: In the past.
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 2: Then the final step is to take the resulting deductions
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 2: derived from these observations in the first two and from
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 2: them attempt to calculate a prediction of what is likely
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 2: to be done in the future. Unfortunately, it will not
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 2: be totally accurate to assume those things that have been
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 2: repeated in the past will be the only actions of
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 2: the future, since changing conditions will generate different responses. Therefore,
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 2: the most accurate way to predict what will what action
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 2: will be taken in the future is not by only
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 2: noting what action was repeated in the past, but the
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 2: reason for the repetition. Not until the reason is understood,
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 2: can we make accurate predictions of future actions through the
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 2: monitoring of those conditions and thus begin to think like
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 2: a deer. Not quite so simple, is it. Then he
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 2: goes on to say, and I think that that's a
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 2: lot of words there. I think the key thing there
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 2: is everything you see in the field, whether it's sign
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 2: or deer movement. It goes back to asking why, It
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 2: goes back to trying to decipher what's the reason for this.
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 2: Now he goes on to say, the good news for
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 2: the whitetail hunter is that success can be had even
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 2: if he can recognize only the repetition, since the factors
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 2: that motivate animals are fewer and less subject to radical change. However,
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 2: the further he develops, the more opportunities he will get.
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 2: The best way I can think of to illustrate the
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 2: difference is with the example that if a hunter notes
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 2: the action being repeated a second time, he should kill
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 2: the buck the third time he tries it. If the
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 2: hunter is able to recognize the reason for the action,
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 2: he should kill the buck the first time he attempts
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 2: to repeat it. There are not many hunters that possess
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 2: the ability to do the former, and even fewer the latter.
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 2: Rare still are the handful who understand the natural order
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 2: of things enough to predict something a buck is going
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 2: to do before he does it the first time. This
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 2: is something that I think goes back to some of
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 2: the conversations we've had about trail cameras, and again, we're
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 2: chasing trail camera photos. We're using technology and modern day
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 2: information to try to chase sees critters. You know, Okay,
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 2: I got a picture of him on this uh, you know,
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 2: this apple tree yesterday. So I'm gonna go sit there tomorrow.
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 2: What Roger's telling us and what you know? I think
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 2: the mistake that so many of us make is that
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 2: we see them do something once we go try to
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 2: have it happen, but we don't understand the reason behind
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 2: it having happened.
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 1: So we don't understand why.
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 2: He was of that apple tree yesterday, or the reason
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 2: he was at that apple tree yesterday. If we don't
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 2: connect those dots and we don't understand what's going on
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 2: in the background, we can't successfully predict when he'll be
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 2: there the next time. If you can understand the why,
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 2: if you can understand the reason, then you can note, oh,
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 2: it's because it was x wind this food source with
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 2: this entry route, maybe then it does actually work out
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 2: for you. In other words, you got to be the camera.
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 2: We've talked a lot about how people chase camera pictures,
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 2: they chase sell pictures. But I think it was Mark
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 2: Jury who told me a few years ago that instead
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 2: of you know, waiting for the cameras to show you
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 2: a buck there and then be there the next day,
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 2: instead you to predict where they're likely to be and
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 2: be the camera, be there in person to see it
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 2: all yourself, be there ahead of time, or be in
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 2: person enough to observe a wider area and to learn
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 2: more than just a camera can tell you. I think
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 2: that what he continues to say here is a useful
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 2: thing to take note of and in a good place
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 2: maybe to wrap this whole thing up.
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 1: And what I really like here.
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 2: About Roger's this final passage I want to read. And
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 2: so much of what Roger emphasizes in these books is that,
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 2: you know, doing what I just described, being the camera
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 2: and predicting deer movement and trying to kill these bucks,
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 2: all of that certainly can lead to more bucks on
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 2: your wall and meet in your freezer, which I know
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 2: we all want. We are all chasing that, we're all
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 2: pursuing that we have our goals. But there's also more
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 2: to it than just that. And Roger makes that point
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 2: over and over again.
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 2: He gives you the tools to have success. He shares
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 2: with you his stories of trials and tribulations and then
• 1:36:07
  Speaker 2: ultimately killing these deer and having the good luck you want.
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 2: So he's arming you with those tools. But throughout all
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 2: of these books, he's constantly going back to what I
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 2: just mentioned a second ago, which is asking why, understanding
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 2: the reason, and that can be applied to the deer
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 2: and to understand why a deer is doing something. But
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 2: I think maybe the bigger point he tries to make
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 2: through his work is us to ask that question about ourselves,
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 2: asking the why, understanding the reason we're out there. And
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 2: if the reason we're out there is just to kill
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 2: a big giant buck, we're oftentimes going to miss the point.
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 2: We're oftentimes going to lose out, loose sight of all
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 2: the beauty and amazing things that can happen in the
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 2: process there. So it kind of opened up with that idea,
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 2: and I want to.
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 1: Close that idea again as well. So here's one last.
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 2: Thought from Roger from Whitetail Magic that I think sums
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 2: allot of this up nicely and that I hope will
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 2: be a good place for us to leave off. Ironically,
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 2: all the attributes normally accredited to good hunters, such as patience, perseverance,
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 2: and knowledge, while important, do not seem to be the
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 2: real key to which level of success one achieves. Instead,
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 2: all these seem to be the end result of another
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 2: more important aspect of hunting, which is, once again the
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 2: attitude with which it is undertaken. In my opinion, the
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 2: desire to hunt should be the result of fascination curiosity
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 2: and deep respect for natural things, and how well one
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 2: does add it is directly dependent upon those things.
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 1: While this may.
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 2: Sound a bit corny to some, you can believe me
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 2: when I say that every good, legitimate whitetail hunter that
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 2: I've ever known, whether personally or through his writings, has
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 2: exuded that respect. All the native tribes of the world
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 2: world which lived directly off the land, regard the earth
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 2: as their mother. The wild animals are referred to as brothers.
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 2: Even trees and other living vegetation, as well as rivers
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 2: and weather that contribute to the quality of their existence,
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 2: are given status and honor. As a child, as well
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 2: as on through my adult years, books, magazines, and films
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 2: based on these things have interested and intrigued me. When
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 2: I came of age where I could do some serious hunting,
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 2: the temptation to become a killer for the sake of
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 2: killing was ever present, but the influence of the writings
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 2: of naturalists such as Leopold Thurrough, Teddy Roosevelt Rutledge, and
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 2: yes Edgar Rice Burroughs was always present, questioning my intentions.
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 2: Those authors and naturalist sportsmen were men of wisdom, with
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 2: understanding and vision. If some of these works were required
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 2: reading before one was allowed to hunt. I'm certain most
• 1:38:54
  Speaker 2: of our present day problems with hunter image and anti
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 2: hunting sentiment would be non existent now. I wish for
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 2: the reader to understand that I did not go into
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 2: all this philosophical prose to preach or toot my horn,
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 2: but rather to express my ideas on how do you
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 2: think like a deer and try to answer the question
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 2: I am often asked personally, which is how do you
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 2: keep on killing those big bucks? If you can understand
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 2: what I've tried to explain, you will know the answer
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 2: to both. Frequently at seminars I try to clarify the
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 2: point by noting the high percentages of hunters today who
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 2: can recite the scientific names of the scent glands as
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 2: well as vocalizations another technical data about white tailed deer,
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 2: but seldom can tell me what kind of tree their
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 2: stand is hanging in, or what is the favorite local
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 2: plant browse of the deer they are hunting. Another good
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 2: parallel I use often is reference to athletic sports. Consider first,
• 1:39:51
  Speaker 2: a person who simply loves a sport for its own sake,
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 2: be it gulf basketball, baseball, or whatever, and plays it
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 2: for the pure enjoyment.
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 1: But he always gives his best.
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 2: And gets good enough to think he might just be
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 2: able to become a proer win a gold medal at
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 2: the Olympics.
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 1: So it goes for it.
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 2: Whether he reaches his goal or not, he is a
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 2: winner simply because he invested his time in something he
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 2: thoroughly enjoyed and loved every minute of it. Now compare
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 2: him to a person who looks at a sport as
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 2: an opportunity to make big money and be set for
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 2: a life of ease. So he drives himself to fulfill
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 2: that obsession. Whether he reaches his goals or not, he
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 2: is a loser, for he has not enjoyed his life.
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 2: Even if he reaches his goal and makes millions, that
• 1:40:36
  Speaker 2: time was wasted. And if he does not reach his goal,
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 2: he has a total failure. Consider it seriously, the only
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 2: tangible thing we really have that is ours is our
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 2: own lifetime. My answer is that I never started out.
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 1: To be a killer of big bucks.
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 2: It's just a natural evolution of my respect for and
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 2: enjoyment of the outdoor, a love for shooting the bow,
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 2: and trying to do both to the best.
• 1:41:04
  Speaker 1: Of my ability.
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 2: I am having a great time, and each success is
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 2: not so much an achievement as it is a blessing
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 2: to be thankful for. And with that I will wrap
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 2: up this profile of Roger Rothar.
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 1: I hope you found this helpful and interesting.
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 2: I have been so thankful for this opportunity to get
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 2: to know one of our predecessors, one of our pioneers.
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 2: I certainly did not know why Roger was so influential
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 2: on so many before this, but now I one hundred
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 2: percent do. I think he has shared something in these
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 2: pages of these books, and hopefully I've been able to
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 2: be able to share with you in this podcast, not
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 2: only the tools for being able to tag dear to
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 2: be a more quote unquote successful deer hunter, but I
• 1:41:56
  Speaker 2: think he shares here how to be a good and
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 2: satisfied and thankful and all around deer hunter, which has
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 2: a lot more to do with what he mentions there
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 2: at the end than it has to do with what's
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 2: hanging on your wall or how many big buck pictures
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 2: you have on social media. So I hope that, maybe
• 1:42:16
  Speaker 2: more than anything, is what sticks with all of us.
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 2: And I hope you enjoyed this, and until next time,
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 2: thanks for being here and stay wired to hunt