Latest / Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps / "Are We Scientifically Illiterate?" with Prof. Luke O'Neill

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"Are We Scientifically Illiterate?" with Prof. Luke O'Neill · Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps

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Gay humans do your research. They say do your own research
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Watch YouTube videos listen to podcasts question the mainstream narrative open your eyes
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Is that the path to wisdom or is it the path to madness?
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Cannot perhaps be both
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I've lately become something of an agutator against
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Taking too much personal responsibility for understanding every issue
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The world is just too complicated
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We need to outsource
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Most complex facts about the world to people who spend their whole lives studying them
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It is just not rigorous. It feels rigorous, but it's not rigorous to
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See an academic paper tweeted by someone with a PhD on Twitter and to let that out way the considered opinions of the mainstream
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Establishment which knows how to put that paper in context and what the counter-vailing evidence might be and how to weigh that
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Paper against others that contradict it and how to adjust for
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Statistical anomalies that I might not be well trained enough to consider
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We just can't do all of that by ourselves. We can't all be experts in everything
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But on the other hand, we also don't want to be sheeple
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We don't want to be
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gullible in believing everything we're told
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So what is the answer especially in a world where fewer and fewer people trust fewer and fewer sources of information about the
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Most basic challenges that we face like pandemics and climate chaos and democracy itself
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One place to start is by listening to all sides, but not giving them equal
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Credence
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By respecting the consensus, but not pillorying the dissidents
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by
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Refusing to talk down to the irrational and
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By calmly finding a common ground of reason and compassion with each other. So
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This is a podcast about not glossing over disagreement, but encouraging it in other words about having conversations that are
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sensitive and respectful and common ground seeking, but sometimes inevitably
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constructively
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uncomfortable
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Today on the show a delightful educator of science Luke O'Neill, professor
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Luke O'Neill, professor of biochemistry at Trinity College Dublin. He's a celebrated Irish popularizer of
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science
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He as well as being an immunologist himself and widely acclaimed scientist
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He also engages with the public a lot on scientific topics especially in Ireland and abroad
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He's got a weekly science slot on the Irish national radio station news talk
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He won a book of the year award in 2020 for a book called Nevermind the Bollocks. Here's the science
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Can you imagine imagine any any more Irish title than that and
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He wrote a memoir like a diary covering COVID-19
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Which was entitled keep calm and trust the science a remarkable year in the life of an immunologist
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I just wanted to get his thoughts about science literacy and how we can all get a little bit more rational
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Please enjoy professor Luke O'Neill
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I
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Don't know what you have to break this and I'll see if we've got some levels
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I'm having a large crop of coffee
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As far as it's 7 a.m. It's unreasonable for me to
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Ask you what you had for breakfast some fair isn't I'm not I'm not having the full Irish
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That's for that very good all right have you got me just you sound very clear of us say I'm in a studio mate
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You see now. What do you got? Yeah? Yeah, I'm in vacation
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It's been an interesting couple of years for science and the public understanding of science because I I feel like
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A few years ago it meant something to say, you know follow the science on something and you know
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You could be I expose the main fault line might be climate science and
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And now I feel like when I hear someone say, you know
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Well, you know, let's just follow the science. I don't know whether they mean let's trust the institutions that are telling us
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The science or yeah, I mean
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Institution can't be trusted and I've done my own research and his data that I've found that contradicts the mainstream
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Narrative what what is science and what does it mean to trust it?
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Well, you're right. Just incredible. What's happening away for obvious reasons scientists? I mean in Ireland
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Every single news item had a scientist kind of think disgusting code
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But obviously, you know, so it's been in the deepest faces I had to break it, but it wasn't just Ireland. It was
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Exactly, yeah, we all over the fact I've never seen so many immunologists becoming household names
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That's right. That way you all over the world your public health
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I'm proud to give West conferences every single day, you know, we'd all have
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Here in Sydney we would huddle around the television at a precisely 11 a.m
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Every day more than a year and the premier of the state would stand up and then she'd be followed by the you know the chief
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Health Officer and you know, we'd be gambling on what the number of cases would be and
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Yeah, yeah, I know I know this obsession that happens. Yeah, it's a strange business that the world and I've been doing science
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stuff for years in the media you see so so now now that it's all calmed down here anyway, we're back to normal
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Yeah, stories which know be listened to you
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Yeah, unless there's a penguin who just had sex in a zoo or something
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Yeah, that's not a big thing. Yeah, that feels good stuff. Yeah, I always go
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There was always a minority of well-meaning people listening to science and discussing it and buying the books and the bookshops and all that kind of thing
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You know, there was always a reason a little for a set of people you might say doing that, but one thing they got me just was a book of mine came
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I'd last year in Ireland. It's got never mind the Bollocks series of science
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You see it's a title and that outsells lots of other books and the publisher was amazed because you know
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It wouldn't normally see a science walk out selling say Obama's by out of biography or whatever
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So that's shift towards science has definitely been evident great and and my my job is to say what science is you see it's empirical
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Based on data. That's what science is really a hypothesis
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You do an experiment you get data and that that's no entrance the frame hopefully
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But you're quite right the vast majority of people are professional scientists
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So how they how they're engaging with this is still an ongoing process is the way I would put it
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I put it in the long run. It'll it'll matter, you know, but I mean these will take size more
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I mean it's easy when it's cut when it's a cut and dried thing
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But the problem is especially in an unfolding uncertain climate like a pandemic
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The you know, it's it's easier said than done to say you've got a hypothesis and then you get data and you test the hypothesis and
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You follow where that leads because the layperson is not necessarily well trained enough to understand all the mitigating counter effects that that
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particular data set might include and to understand it in the context of all the other peer reviewed studies that are going on especially
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When there is genuine uncertainty in the scientific community
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So I feel like some of the most quite unquite scientifically minded people in terms of the people who think that they're doing their own
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Science are actually the most misled because they'll see something on social media which will be from really from a you know
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Great a legit authority, but we don't know how to interpret it offset it very true. It's very true
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And you're stuck then trying to trust the so called experts and voices you might trust you see and then that that comes down to
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A question to trust more than empirical evidence exactly and that unless the way people have to be because I spent eight years
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Training to be a scientist remember so we can't expect my next or an Aver who isn't a scientist to have the same level of
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Of kind of a of in-depth knowledge that I would have and I mean we're right with all due respect
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We may not even expect you to have the same level of in-depth knowledge of another field of science
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And this is how you'll see people with PhDs coming forth and you know spouting some sort of vaccine misinformation nonsense
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Yeah, and their followers will say look. I mean, this is a highly credentialed individual and that makes it that makes it tricky
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Very tricky very and then it comes down to just a feel all most I think
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And it's very hard isn't it? I hear exactly what you're saying. I mean all I would ever do in the media is try to give the evidence
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That now you know and I've had if I sent any tweets out
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I always put a link to the paper and do my best to say here's the evidence
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But you quite like these are very technical things aren't they so so you need the so-called expert to be the mediator between the
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Complexity of the science and then and then a general audience and that that's a tricky especially with this you're right normally before
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The pandemic there'd be a discovery made it was pretty definitive and you can describe it with confidence that this
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This is what was found in this lab and this is what this story might mean with this one
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It was changing all the time because you knew in the famous words of the big levels can you shit?
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Keep keep coming to light so so that was the tricky bit here and then how do you convey that you know and that's right
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I think what's what's good is it's like my day job anyway if I go to a scientific conference I hear a speaker
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Oh my god, I don't trust that guy. You know how I don't like a lab or a day look that's that's the scientific process
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It's always about debate read you know and finally getting to some kind of bottom line and the good news is we did get the bottom lines with this
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With this virus. We know a lot about us. We know a lot of information. We know about various approaches to
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To study it and make the vaccines and therapies and all kinds of things, you know, so so things for me
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As you would imagine given the number zeta for science
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Science is delivered on this one huge for us as a planet. Well science may have but the scientific conversation may not have
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That's true. Well, that got very garbled and there were lots of you know as you say missed information and to it and very
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reputable
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People saying certain things that that I would have said I don't like the look of that
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You know, for instance, give my scientific training but about a lay audience wouldn't be able to say that maybe so it's a really
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A really difficult isn't it in a sense and this applies to many scientific topics not just COVID
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Well, yeah, but I mean this one in particular bumps up against our real lives in a way that many scientific topics don't
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You know when you so you come up with the vaccines and now we have to convince eight billion people or six billion people
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Have many people might be eligible for it to all have something injected into them and then yeah
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You know, that's a proactive thing that we have to do. So I've got four-year-old twins and I'm frankly
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somewhat relieved that
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They weren't five at precisely the point that they would have been eligible to get vaccinated just because
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they've had COVID and it was fine and
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You know, I'm not sure what the what the risk balance would have been between the threat of COVID to a five-year-old versus
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vaccine side effects for a five-year-old, you know, it's a no-brainer if you're over the age of 40 or something
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But I think people got got concerned about the state requiring everybody to do something in the absence of absolutely unclad
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information
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Yeah, I'm very understandable special parents and kids that's a hundred percent
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I understand there was an anxiety and if you don't trust your state you're in trouble, aren't you?
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You know, why would I believe my government if I don't trust my government to do certain things and that became an issue in
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NASA countries where the vaccine uptake was low even for adults
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Yeah, I don't I don't trust that guy on the telly telling me this stuff you can get lost kind of territory, you know
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again
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Well, I think is you got to appeal to people's sense of reason and then when being reasonable that's the world I often use
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You know and they can't look at all the data can they the endless Pfizer trial data with 500 pays document
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That's ridiculous isn't it you know so they end up having to trust the experts then see yes
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I like trusting their doctor if you're sick and you go to your doctor and suggest something for you
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You might actually trust the doctor and so I'll go for that, you know
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But again, it comes down to that word trust in a way. Yeah. How how's the trust doing in Ireland
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Yeah, we were very happy here overall. I think we got the 97% vaccination of our adults population
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well with the booster and everything which is great, you know
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Children, I'd say what it's the same as you guys in the sense them is a bit of a noxence here and there but many parents
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Still vaccinated they they they accept that this is just another vaccine that they're given their kids loads of vaccines
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Anyway, no, I know it's new that that was where the anxiety would come from but by and large Ireland did extremely well
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I think we're third in Europe for our vaccine of take care of great and Josh
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I see that as evidence of a functioning educated democracy
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You see such evidence that
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People are reasonable here in Ireland not everybody obviously it was fair enough
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But the majority did they they just took this on faith a lot of the time and went first, you know
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Interesting that you mentioned functioning educated democracy
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um
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What do we need to do to make sure that we are more functioning more educated and more democratic?
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Yeah education education education education right phrase isn't that you know
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You've got you've got to have a very high level of an education in any country always and I'm a educationist as well
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Obviously, you know in Ireland they do science up to the age of 16 and school here
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So it's quite older than some other countries, you know
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So all you can do is educate people in school
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How to look at the complexities we're discussing to be honest like like people have to decide now for themselves
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Based on what they're seeing in social media whether they go whether they believe something or not
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Don't they and education helps that the start of education really I think is is the starting point for all of this
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The purpose of education
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One definition Josh is to make people reasonable
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Didn't work a course in many countries. Why did you
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But that's the goal of education radius to make people reason. That's all you know for with an education system one level
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And
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And as I say in Ireland we seem to have achieved that was already very happy about really
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And yet the people who cite the most statistics and the most data are sometimes the most unreasonable because this
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Rabbit hole, you know, I mean kind of but you've said it recently
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But you know if you meet if you encounter someone who knows every single
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minute detail about what happened on the 22nd of November
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1963 was it when JFK was shot
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Yeah, then you can bet that that person is a conspiracy theorist who is not
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Yeah, you know as connected or the moon landing or something if they know precisely what the material that the flag was made out of was or something
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Then they're likely to be actually less reasonable than someone who takes it on faith
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That's true. Yeah, well the question there is what gives rise to unreasonableness in a way
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You know, and it's a very complex human trait. You know, it can be it's based on human psychology that dreaded
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aspect of science, which is always very hard to pin down
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But some people who are highly educated can be extremely unreasonable
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So the two the two don't directly correlate necessarily again. You look at my statistics on average, you know what I mean
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Yeah, people are going to education on average. They should be more of these for the law is these elites
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The law is the mavericks we like mavericks and science by the way who who kicked the tires a lot
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That's not a bad thing in science by the way, you know
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But it always for me it comes down to just show me your evidence show me your data
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Which would happen to me at a professional scientific conference anyway, you know
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You can say what you like of course yet. Oh, it's a free free world
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Hopefully, but you got to back it up a data and then I might say oh, maybe that goes right
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And in my business and immunology the science has changed over decades because new again new shit comes to life
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If you're reasonable as a scientist you accept that, you know
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The change or opinion change your opinion on something
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The most adult sub-short will change in their minds or opinion on something which is which is difficult
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That seems to be part of our tribal evolutionary origins in a way you can't back down. Can we?
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, that becomes a difficult then it becomes a tribal thing doesn't it and you know and a face-saving thing as much as
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All of us you don't free to yeah exactly and I can dominate I can trump if I can use the word
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're sticking that down. Yeah, exactly
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Let's talk about education then Luke because it's interesting
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I I am now a very scientifically minded person and I'm fascinated by it
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But that was because in my teens I discovered Carl Sagan and Richard Dawkins and Richard Feynman and and my eyes were open through books
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Science at school. I hated it. It was all
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Petri dishes and you know, it was always sort of almost wrote learning and the table of the elements and everything
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What I loved being a sort of poetic humanities
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Nambi Pambi was the philosophy of science the majesty of science the poetry of science and I sort of wish that that got taught in school
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Yes, I strange. Yeah, I agree. I mean at the trouble is science is is is is full of facts is the problem
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You know, let's face it like I could describe the immune system to you and give you all these awful drive facts
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We'll bore the arse off you know, so so as an educator
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How do I make that interesting to kids? I still lecture in university. You see so but you're right
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That's that's this disappointing when that happens in a sense and again
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I'm a huge fan of science teachers in Ireland. I'm actually ready. It is Josh
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I'm president of the Irish science teachers
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Oh, lad
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Yeah, here we go
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Your pipe and you're not the president of the humility society of Ireland. No, no, no, not yes
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That's I'm aspiring to be that. Yeah, that's a long way to go yet
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My way together. Yeah, but no, I mean the and the science teachers are a great bunch
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I was at the conference two weeks ago, and this is the very thing they talk about
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How to make how to turn turn kids aren't as nice as ways to do it
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It sounds as if you had the a very unpleasant experience in a way
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Yeah, I mean maybe that wasn't unpleasant. There was just you know, it was just nothing. It was just blah
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I was just like what's inspiring about that strike. Yeah. Yeah, whereas I was lucky
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I had a great science teacher in school, which is with this the reason I became a scientist
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A guy called Tran Moon. He was the image of Shaggy and Scooby-Doo
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That was how I remember him and he really aspired me
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You know, so I was lucky in that sense
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You know, I'd good teacher in school
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Let's come back to the original question of what science actually is
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I mean you said that it was data, but let's put it in a historical context because people have had
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Information for a very long time and it's not it's not the case that simply accumulating
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Information is going to yield a strong scientific theory
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So what what comes first like the data or
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The theory and what makes a theory good?
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It starts with curiosity. You want to know something and it can be anything
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It can be dinosaurs stars science isn't the vote
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Discovered a new widget remember touch technology. So science is just the vote being curious and asking your question
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So you come up with the question and you try and answer it
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Now the way we answer questions usually is through experiments and we design experiments
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To help us answer the question and if the experiment then agrees with our hypothesis we get to a bottom line
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And then we say you know
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Ecos mc squared or whatever you want to call it you know
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So in other words that that's the scientific process and action and then the big question is what constitutes evidence
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And in my lab I need three or four independent lines of evidence to support the bottom line
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You know some allows might need one you know so it's about the strength of the evidence ultimately to support
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What the bottom line is about some particular aspect of the natural world
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And that really that really captures what the scientific process is about
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And it is all about the strength of the evidence and the the type of experiments you do
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That's why I teach you eight years of training really
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So eventually you want to become an independent scientist and design your own experiments
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That takes training you know takes a use of an effort read you super
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And then you can call yourself a card carrying scientist in a sense
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Because you can do you can do discovery stuff
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So it does take time to learn it's like an other skill reading
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What got you into it Luke?
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Well I'll say initially it was just the joy of us with the great teacher reading
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And then the one yourself just I began reading those books
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I remember reading Isaac Asimov
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He was a big hero as a teenager
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And he actually he's got science fiction over course
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But he also wrote the guide to science which I vividly remember reading
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At the age of 18 and I think I like this you know
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I think an element to me just was giving me
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That sort of reassurance maybe is one word for it
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To explain the the enormity of existence
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You know like I just enjoyed learning this
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What are you with Dawkins and he said I love Carl Sagan as well
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I mean those guys that's there about reading they're giving up
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We enjoy it because we get a sense of intellectual stimulation of course
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But secondly sense of wonder
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And then terribly it explains the complexity and enormity of things as well for me
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And that was a jump off point in many ways for me
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And did you find the fact that it explains things
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You just said it gave you reassurance
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I mean most Irish people get their reassurance presumably from their faith
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Was what was your
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Not anymore
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Not anymore
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That's the way it was the other
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You've never seen it in my lifetime
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You've never seen a country change
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It was as Ireland as a kid
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Yeah yeah
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It was 95% of observance of the Catholic faith
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Now it's about 10%
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You know that's got to go
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But you're right though yeah for decades here
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The church and religion
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For others say the same function anyway
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I don't see any difference there
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We're all human beings after all
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And someone used all their things to give them comfort
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For me I use science the way to think about you
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Was that a change? Were you raised religious?
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I was
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Yeah we all were
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Well they shot you you see if you didn't go
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It's not us a joke
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I wasn't like anybody else
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But I don't have a teenager
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And evidently I went
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What is this shit
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Yes no no
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I've got respect for people
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If that's their thing that's fine
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I'm going to shove it down my neck I don't mind
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But that was a funny one
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Yes so it started
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All of us went to that religious experience
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And then we came out the other end
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Hopefully relatively intact you see
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And when you say
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When you say you don't mind if people believe that
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As long as they don't shove it down your neck
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I mean the case of a Richard Dawkins or a Sam Harris
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Would be or a Christopher Hitchens
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Would be it they can't help but shove it down your neck
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Because there's something corrosive to the whole society
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Into the whole national or global conversation
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About people founding such fundamental ideas
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On unreasonable beliefs
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Or on a commitment to historical events
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That are so obviously
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Unlikely at best and ludicrous
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At worst
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Do you share that concern?
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I am inclined to more sympathetic towards people
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If they decide to believe
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It's certain things that's their business really
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You know and if it gives them to the nice
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That's fine by me you know
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Now if you're a scientist
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You got that coffee true
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Any of that
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Why would somebody believe that
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It becomes if it becomes malignant
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And begins harming others
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Then that's that's that's disastrous
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And we've seen that through history anyway
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And maybe that's where they're coming from
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In that regard
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Yeah well I think they also feel like it trains your mind
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To to get used to taking things on
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On two little evidence
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And to be rigorous about thinking
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So it makes it harder for us to
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Come to common solutions about things like the climate crisis
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If you're if you're sort of contaminated by the idea
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That you can just muddle along without thinking too carefully
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About the most fundamental things that you believe
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Well it's funny to say that yesterday
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Josh I saw a great someone sent me this poster
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Along the lines of
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Education is no good
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It destroys your faith in God
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So that kind of thing
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Yeah that's exactly right
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Yeah
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Again that's the malignant side of this innocent
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And I can see exactly where they're coming from
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The darkens will be of the viewers
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You know that it was all run
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A huge negative
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All this you see
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For lots of species on earth
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Kind of thing you see
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Yeah
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But that that that takes away from the fact that for many
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It's a very positive thing
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It can be very positive
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We humanism is one way to do it
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Plus Jesus or whatever
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You know so
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Do you keep the humanism far to can't argue
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You can't argue with that
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Ganya
23:35
Yeah
23:36
Yeah
23:37
It's the other stuff that that's definitely a challenge you
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So if you were inspired to go into science
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By this science teacher
23:43
How did you end up specializing
23:45
Why did you end up an immunologist
23:47
Yeah but then I said
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That's got one of the university
23:50
Mainly to have a few beers
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And the usual kind of things
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And I picked science because I loved it from school
23:55
And then I got drawn towards biology
23:57
I mean to me biology is the ultimate science
23:59
Because it explains life itself
24:01
And that was the
24:02
In the back of my mind
24:03
Trying to understand life
24:04
You know
24:04
And then again just to
24:06
I was in university
24:07
And I began to specialize
24:08
Just out of interest really
24:10
Ended up an immunology
24:11
Because
24:12
I realized that the basis for most diseases
24:15
Has a dysfunctional immune system
24:17
You know at the background
24:17
Somewhere
24:18
So I feel like I'd be good to work on
24:19
If I work in the immune system
24:21
I might be able to help
24:22
Come off with ways to treat diseases
24:24
My first disease I worked on was Crohn's disease
24:26
And I found what she built
24:28
And then I moved into room with
24:29
So I had arthritis and acne
24:30
These are all diseases
24:31
So the immune system goes crazy
24:32
And begins attacking your own tissues
24:34
Still on
24:34
We still don't know why
24:35
That's still the mystery
24:36
They've got a lot of immunity
24:37
So that got my imagination basically
24:40
Here was a very complicated world
24:43
Which I could do science in
24:45
And make discoveries
24:46
Which is my first thrill
24:47
To make a discovery
24:48
And then it'd be useful to design new medicines
24:50
And that would be the ultimate dream
24:51
And I still haven't got there yet
24:52
So I'm still talking about
24:54
And when you say that these kinds of diseases
24:56
These inflammatory diseases
24:58
We don't really know what causes them
25:00
And we're not entirely sure how to cure them
25:03
Do we? I have a close family member
25:04
Who had ulcerative colitis
25:05
Which is very similar to Crohn's disease
25:07
So you'd be very familiar with that
25:08
And you know
25:09
Was on a powerful drug to combat it
25:12
And gradually through lifestyle changes
25:14
Was able to win himself off that drug
25:16
And is now free from it
25:18
What's happening there
25:20
It's very difficult
25:21
So I mean I've been working on these things
25:23
For over 35 years now myself
25:24
You know
25:25
We still don't really know
25:26
It's a shocking thing
25:27
We've learned a bit about the component parts
25:29
Of the immune system to go wrong
25:30
So we know some of the
25:32
The sort of that
25:33
You know cell types
25:34
And some of the chemicals
25:35
The immune molecules that are made
25:37
You know
25:38
They're overproduced in these diseases
25:40
So one idea would be to block those
25:41
And ramp them down
25:43
You might relieve some of the symptoms
25:44
Not that the drugs do
25:45
But you're right though
25:46
We've no way to stop it starting
25:48
We've no way of predicting its course
25:50
When these disease either
25:51
So these are still big mysteries
25:53
And again very active
25:54
They're still important
25:56
Because they're so common
25:57
And it's also debilitating
25:58
Because you would know
25:59
From your own
26:00
Connections there
26:01
So we need
26:02
We need to do better
26:03
And now there has been advances
26:04
In rheumatoid arthritis
26:05
It was a huge advance in the 30 years
26:07
They did discover new ways
26:09
To block some of these mediators
26:10
Like go crazy in that disease
26:12
You don't see people having wheelchairs
26:14
Anymore on rheumatoid
26:15
Where you did when I started
26:17
So there has been some progress
26:18
But we do need to stop them at sorcery
26:20
And another example
26:21
Josh is a big breakthrough
26:23
About a month ago
26:23
As MMS might be caused
26:25
By Epstein-Barravars
26:26
Now if that's true
26:28
Oh yeah
26:29
You can no vaccinate
26:30
Of course against MS
26:31
With nothing tremendous
26:32
You know
26:32
Oh wait
26:33
And we're not going to be vaccinated
26:34
Against that already
26:35
No
26:36
No
26:36
No
26:36
And it's a mystery
26:38
It's very common
26:38
Epstein-Barravars
26:39
We've all probably had it
26:41
It causes, I think, a glandular fever
26:43
If you're a teenager
26:44
If kids pick this up
26:45
You know
26:46
But for some reason
26:47
With the right
26:47
Drone genetic background
26:49
Combined with that virus
26:50
You might develop MS
26:51
So is the suggestion
26:53
That the glandular fever could trigger MS initially
26:56
Or that if you've had glandular fever in the past
26:58
You're susceptible to it
27:00
No
27:00
No, it looks as if
27:01
Like most people have had Epstein-Barravars
27:03
And yet MS
27:04
Is not common
27:05
I mean it's maybe one or two
27:06
Persons in Ireland
27:07
Which is quite high
27:08
So
27:09
It'll be a combination of your genetic background
27:11
Then you get infected
27:12
And that might progress into MS
27:14
I'm just trying to figure out
27:15
If I'm at higher risk
27:16
If I can get vaccinated
27:17
Or if I'm at higher risk
27:18
Because I have had the virus
27:20
But
27:21
For 15 years
27:23
Right, no
27:24
I don't want to worry about that
27:24
If you haven't got infected
27:26
We don't know
27:27
I mean it's MS can develop later in life
27:30
This discovery
27:30
There's a massive analysis happening now
27:32
Of course
27:32
To see this holds off
27:34
You see
27:34
It's a bit like
27:35
Human papaloma virus
27:36
And survival cancer
27:38
There's a vaccine for that
27:39
It's discovered Australia
27:40
By the way
27:40
You know
27:40
Yeah
27:42
That was a great discovery
27:43
That vaccine
27:44
Now not not everybody
27:45
You get to HIV-V to develop cancer
27:46
So it's a bit like that
27:47
You know
27:47
So I say
27:48
Something else going up
27:48
There's something else happening
27:50
Wasn't there also a breakthrough
27:50
A similar breakthrough with ulcers
27:53
There was
27:54
That other famous Australian
27:55
Dip terror
27:56
I give the Aussies credit
27:57
So it's horrendous
27:58
Now it's just a crying out loud
28:00
Not only we got exposure
28:01
But you know
28:02
Also
28:03
Inflammatory
28:04
It was being judged
28:05
And this isn't the blood
28:06
Smoke up your country's ass
28:07
Necessarily
28:08
But it
28:08
There's been fantastic
28:09
Immunality in Australia for decades
28:11
You know
28:12
And we're all on our off
28:12
The taste of the wee high
28:14
The water lies the hall
28:14
Is the student male
28:15
And that's a world-class place
28:17
For that major discoveries
28:18
Or made there
28:19
That have contributed directly to human health
28:21
Which is my dream to love yourself
28:23
Yeah, we're not all crocodile dandies
28:25
You know, so that's right
28:26
That's right
28:27
Yes, yes
28:28
That's right exactly
28:29
But probably, Marcia, he's a hero
28:31
As you know, because nobody believed him
28:33
A true maverick
28:33
Again, we love that
28:34
You know
28:34
And he proves in himself
28:36
By taking this bacteria
28:37
Helicopacter
28:38
So just explain it to people
28:39
Because not everyone will know this
28:40
So ulcers back in the day
28:42
And my dad had ulcers
28:43
This was supposed to be some kind of a
28:44
Stress-related thing
28:46
Or you know
28:46
Some sort of a mystery
28:48
And when someone, when this Aussie
28:49
Proposed that there might be a bacterial
28:52
Cause
28:52
That was considered to be ludicrous
28:54
But what happened?
28:56
Yeah
28:56
Well, exactly
28:57
When I was younger
28:59
And also was a middle-aged man
29:00
Too many martinis
29:02
Wasn't meeting his sales targets
29:04
Smoked him
29:04
What you got
29:04
And also
29:05
That kind of the
29:05
You know
29:06
But whatever
29:07
And Marcia was in the hangar
29:09
I mean
29:09
There's a bacteria here
29:10
Because he'd go back to a pylori
29:11
Funny name
29:12
That was the bacteria he identifies
29:14
In the stomachs of people with ulcers
29:16
And that kind of just
29:17
That could just be a
29:18
You know, a carative thing
29:20
Didn't have to be causative
29:21
And then he proves
29:21
It's this bacteria
29:22
That irritates the
29:24
The digestive system
29:24
And brings out ulcers in the stomach
29:26
Astring ulcers
29:27
You know
29:27
And to prove it
29:28
He eventually took
29:29
Drank someone's self
29:31
And he gave himself an ulcer
29:32
You know
29:33
So
29:33
No
29:33
And he took
29:34
Hydrosandibiotics
29:36
Killed it
29:36
And they also went away
29:37
And that was
29:38
That was
29:38
And he was warned as we call this
29:39
But
29:40
Yeah
29:40
So
29:41
We needed more clinical trials
29:42
But it was proven
29:43
And this is a revolution
29:44
He won the Nobel Prize party for this
29:46
It was a very painful
29:48
Horrible disease
29:49
You know
29:49
People drink a milk
29:51
To try to balance the acid
29:52
All this stuff
29:53
No, it changed my dad's life
29:54
When that breakthrough happened
29:55
Oh yeah
29:56
Exactly
29:57
So we love that
29:57
That's a great
29:58
That's one of my best examples
29:59
Of how great science is
30:00
And it's such
30:01
You know, an idea
30:02
Hypothesis
30:03
Test it
30:03
Get data
30:04
Back it up
30:05
A press
30:05
Though
30:06
Millions of people don't suffer
30:07
As much as they did before
30:08
Because
30:08
I know
30:09
Nobody can
30:09
There's no misinformation
30:10
With this one
30:11
You know
30:11
Not only
30:12
Not only
30:12
No, that's right
30:13
There it is
30:13
There's the facts
30:14
In front of the
30:15
Yes
30:16
And so then the human
30:18
Human problem of virus
30:19
As you said as well
30:20
And cervical cancer
30:21
Yeah
30:21
That connection was made
30:22
Now you're saying that there might be
30:24
A connection that's being made
30:25
Between Epstein bar
30:27
And MS
30:28
Yes
30:29
That's right
30:29
I'm still unclear as to whether or not
30:31
You're saying that
30:32
We need to vaccinate people
30:33
Who've never been infected
30:35
With Epstein bar
30:36
Because
30:37
That would reduce their risk
30:39
Or even if you have had a vaccination
30:41
Would still reduce your risk
30:43
Unlikely
30:44
Yeah
30:44
Had it probably too late
30:45
But we don't have anything
30:46
We don't
30:46
Well, it might be possible
30:47
But the idea would be
30:48
If this holds up
30:49
Josh in a sense
30:50
We will be vaccinating teenagers
30:52
Against Epstein bar
30:53
Virus
30:54
And MS might go away
30:55
Wouldn't that be tremendous
30:56
I don't believe it's more
30:56
I also have a
30:57
We need more data
30:58
Recently diagnosed with MS
31:00
It's quite
31:00
Yeah
31:01
And
31:02
Exactly
31:02
Well
31:03
I was a devastating
31:04
Devastating disease
31:05
Now again
31:05
There's been progress with MS
31:06
When I began my research
31:08
I was I say 30 years ago
31:09
There was
31:09
No, it was nothing for MS
31:11
There's three or four options now
31:12
And they do help some people
31:14
You know, not everybody
31:15
So there has been a bit of progress there
31:16
But if this turns out to be the case
31:18
MS could be a thing of the past
31:20
Which would be tremendous
31:20
Wow
31:21
So when you think about this
31:22
There are other things
31:23
There are other ailments
31:24
That you suspect
31:25
Might have a viral bacterial cause
31:27
That we just don't know yet
31:29
Yeah, we're looking for them
31:31
I mean
31:31
What idea would be
31:32
All these diseases
31:33
Are caused by an infection
31:34
And that sets the immune system
31:36
Off-kilter
31:36
Basically
31:37
And then begins to
31:38
Attack our own tissues
31:39
Is the idea here
31:40
And often when you end up
31:41
When your doctor's surgery
31:43
You've cleared the infection
31:44
You see
31:45
But the immune system is still burning away
31:47
You know
31:47
And it's right
31:48
Re-re-re-calibrated
31:49
That's where I saw
31:50
It's too
31:50
So you won't find the damn thing
31:51
But you know
31:52
For the MS study
31:53
They taken samples of 18, 19-year-olds
31:56
It was in the U.S. Army strange
31:57
Right
31:58
And everybody gives a blood sample
32:00
And when they sign up
32:01
Basically
32:02
You know
32:02
They went into the archival material
32:04
And then
32:05
It's tried to figure out
32:05
Who went on to develop MS
32:07
And saw this correlation
32:08
Then with F-Sign Barbar
32:09
So it was very retrospective in a way
32:11
You know
32:12
Pretty clever
32:12
Wasn't it to do that in a sense
32:13
You see
32:14
So that's the kind of thing
32:15
But the trouble is
32:15
As I say
32:16
When often with these diseases
32:18
You're trying to shut the stable door
32:19
After the horse's bolt
32:20
And you're waiting to try to find
32:21
In that
32:21
You know
32:22
But still
32:23
There's this reason
32:23
What I thought this is
32:24
Maybe they're all caused by viruses
32:25
All these disease
32:26
You never know
32:27
No again
32:27
We do more evidence
32:28
But I thought there's nothing
32:29
On the reason
32:29
What I thought this is
32:30
Well certainly
32:31
I mean
32:31
Are you just talking about diseases
32:32
That are
32:33
That involve the immune system going haywire
32:36
Yeah
32:37
It's exactly
32:38
So
32:38
I mean
32:39
This is also a problem with COVID
32:40
As well
32:40
Just to loop back to that
32:41
Obviously
32:42
That
32:42
You know
32:43
When
32:43
When COVID
32:44
Does you in
32:45
And frequently
32:46
Especially in the cases
32:47
Where younger people
32:49
Die from COVID
32:50
And correct me if I'm wrong
32:50
It's because
32:51
Their immune systems are going
32:52
Absolutely berserk
32:53
And they've got this
32:54
Is it a cytokine storm
32:55
That just
32:55
That's exactly right
32:56
Throwing the system out
32:57
Precisely
32:58
Now there's a great word
32:59
For me
32:59
Just
33:00
I work on cytokines
33:01
I've worked on them
33:02
Since the mid
33:03
80s really
33:03
You know
33:04
And many are these
33:05
Discovered cytokines
33:06
I'll have that
33:07
Especially
33:07
We are
33:08
Yes
33:08
There you have it
33:09
Basking in the
33:10
In the inherited glory
33:11
For a countryman
33:12
And they go
33:12
Well
33:13
Well let's get
33:14
To get the message out
33:15
Australia's
33:15
Contributions
33:16
To the world of cytokines
33:17
To be massive
33:18
Over the honest
33:18
I got them
33:19
I'm not making it up
33:19
So
33:20
So it's great
33:21
You know
33:21
And you're right
33:21
But this
33:21
This so-called cytokine storm
33:23
cytokines
33:24
So basically
33:24
The messengers of the immune system
33:26
And they
33:26
When you have an infection
33:27
They go up
33:28
Wake up the immune cells
33:29
So it's then
33:29
Clear the infection
33:30
That's the way the immune system works
33:31
You know
33:32
The trouble is
33:33
And you get too many cytokines
33:34
The dreaded
33:35
Military
33:36
Andology friendly fire
33:37
You know
33:38
You get collateral damage
33:39
And then you get all the
33:39
Symptomology
33:40
And COVID is exactly like that
33:42
And in general we call this
33:44
Sepis the cause
33:44
In the case of bacteria
33:46
In fact, same
33:46
And I think
33:47
Out of control
33:47
Immunable
33:48
Why happened to the mystery
33:49
Oh no, I thought
33:50
Sepis was just
33:51
That the bacteria
33:52
Was getting to
33:53
To strong a foothold
33:54
In you
33:55
I didn't realize
33:55
That it was an immunological response
33:57
Oh absolutely
33:58
Sepis is again
33:59
An overactive immune
34:00
Response to bacteria
34:01
That goes
34:02
Systemic
34:03
As aware
34:03
And then you're
34:04
Livered
34:04
And you're long
34:04
And everything gets affected
34:05
You know
34:06
And then
34:06
Sepis is still a lethal condition
34:08
You see
34:08
And again we're trying to
34:09
Why I walk into that
34:10
That's trying to stop
34:11
That's almost impossible
34:12
As soon as they think
34:13
The trains are so run
34:14
It's almost
34:15
Then possible to stop
34:16
But you see
34:16
The COVID is
34:17
Do you think that COVID is
34:18
The long COVID is a good example
34:20
Jewish
34:20
Because
34:21
That seems to be the immune system
34:23
Of kilter
34:24
And persisting then
34:25
From from months
34:25
And even years
34:26
It looks like
34:27
They're in some people
34:28
They've awful symptoms
34:29
That go on
34:29
For months and months
34:30
And again
34:30
The virus now gone
34:31
Remember more than likely
34:33
Yes
34:33
Instead the immune system
34:34
And reset you see
34:35
Is now been flipped
34:36
To give you those symptoms as well
34:38
That's funny isn't
34:39
I hadn't really thought about that
34:40
There is no virus
34:41
There is no COVID virus left in you
34:43
When you've got long COVID
34:44
It's you
34:45
That's right
34:45
Doing it
34:46
Is there a way
34:47
If all of this has to do
34:48
With an overreaction of our
34:50
Immune system
34:50
So many of these different
34:52
ailments
34:53
Then rather than playing a game of
34:54
Wacomole
34:55
And sort of trying to
34:56
Hit each one
34:58
By either devising a vaccine
34:59
To take
35:00
To prevent you from
35:02
You know
35:02
From being infected with
35:03
Whatever that
35:04
That bug is in advance
35:06
Or a treatment after
35:07
You have been infected
35:09
Could there be any
35:10
Grand sort of
35:12
You know like
35:12
Physicists want something
35:13
That's just printed on the t-shirt
35:15
That is the
35:16
You know the
35:16
The grand equation
35:18
Could there be a way of
35:18
Regulating
35:19
The immune system
35:20
So that it just doesn't go
35:22
There aren't these spikes and troughs
35:24
The could the could well be
35:25
In fact one of the big advances
35:27
In the past
35:27
They ten years
35:28
Is to find those key
35:29
Nodes
35:30
They're going to call them
35:30
You know
35:31
The master switch
35:32
That gets flipped
35:33
You see
35:34
And then get reversed
35:34
That master switch
35:35
You could have
35:36
Have a treatment for many different diseases
35:38
We know this
35:39
For example
35:39
Stereoids work in many
35:40
In the family disease
35:42
So they
35:42
They seem to
35:43
Control this central
35:45
So the switching mechanism
35:46
That's got that's come crazy
35:47
And our
35:48
Stereoids work in asthma
35:49
They're working colitis
35:50
They work in skin diseases
35:52
For that reason
35:53
Now we don't have to know more
35:54
About how
35:54
Stereoids work
35:55
By the way
35:55
That's still a bit
35:56
A bit of an unknown
35:57
But certainly
35:57
You're right
35:58
That kind of evidence
35:58
What suggest there is some way
36:00
To reset the whole thing
36:01
Which could be then used
36:02
For across all these diseases really
36:04
Could there be a utility
36:05
In taking
36:06
Lotus
36:06
Stereoids
36:07
I mean, I sometimes get hives
36:08
When I
36:09
You know, when I eat some
36:10
Weird things
36:11
I'll
36:11
You know, just have some
36:12
What sort of look like
36:14
Mosy bites
36:15
On my body
36:15
And if I pop a couple of steroid
36:17
Tablets
36:17
Like a
36:18
You know, I mean
36:19
Obviously
36:19
We're not talking about
36:20
Like human growth
36:21
Home
36:21
Home
36:22
Stereoids
36:22
We're talking about
36:23
Anti-algae pills
36:25
Then it goes away
36:26
In the same way
36:27
That we
36:28
We expect that there's
36:29
Probably a positive outcome
36:30
On your heart
36:31
If you take a half an aspirin
36:32
A day
36:33
Could there be
36:34
A similar case to
36:35
To be made for steroids
36:37
But again, the history
36:38
Of that's a great one
36:38
When that was discovered
36:39
In the 50s
36:40
There was a guy called
36:41
Hensch
36:41
He was a rheumatologist
36:42
He noticed a woman
36:43
When they go pregnant
36:45
The arthritis went away
36:46
If they'd rheumatized
36:47
And he wondered why
36:48
And he knew there was changes
36:49
In these steroids
36:50
Your own pregnancy
36:51
And he got one of the steroids
36:53
A glucose chord
36:54
A chord
36:54
Gave it to a man
36:55
And that guy's arthritis went away
36:57
And they all thought
36:58
Wow, we've now got a way
36:59
To cure arthritis
37:00
You know
37:01
So it's a great hope
37:02
But the trouble is the side effects
37:03
Stereoids do many different things
37:05
In your body
37:05
They don't just suppress
37:07
The inflammatory process
37:09
So again, they can't be used routinely
37:10
Because they get skin thinning
37:12
And various other things happen sadly
37:13
You see
37:14
And that can happen in science
37:16
So you think you've cracked it
37:17
And then some little dirty fact crops
37:19
Or you see
37:19
So you can all know
37:20
You know
37:21
Then you've got to back to square what
37:22
But steroids are very useful
37:24
Especially in their acute inflammation
37:25
If you're a massive inflammatory reaction
37:27
Some steroid will give you relief
37:28
Then in fact an asthma is a good example
37:30
That disease
37:31
Stereoids are used
37:33
To treat severe asthma for that reason
37:34
Because they can dampen
37:35
They put the fire out
37:36
But the trouble is they've got these
37:38
You can't use them chronically
37:39
Because they've got these
37:39
Or the other effects
37:40
That are just to do with inflammation
37:42
Extraordinary stuff
37:43
Do you suspect that they're just
37:45
To take a completely different pivot
37:46
While we're talking about biology
37:47
How widespread do you think
37:49
The biological systems are
37:50
In the universe
37:51
Do you think about that?
37:53
I do
37:54
Oh yeah, well I always
37:55
Like as I'm half you see
37:56
That's the difference
37:57
The side science
37:58
Fiction to peasant and warner space
38:00
Or to see what's not a great idea
38:01
At the aliens
38:02
Have governed our evolution
38:04
In a way
38:04
You know
38:05
So I mean there has to be life
38:07
Outside the earth
38:08
It's just the loves to
38:09
Average is basically you know
38:11
There's billions and billions of galaxies
38:13
Isn't there and there's lots of planets now
38:15
I mean the big breakthrough in astronomy
38:16
Was the discovery of these exoplanets
38:19
That are in the right kind of gold
38:20
You locks his arm as they call it
38:22
So more than likely
38:23
Then we will find
38:24
Well when we find us
38:25
The next question
38:26
But I wouldn't be at all surprised
38:27
If life has evolved
38:28
In other parts of the universe really
38:31
Do you think that consciousness has
38:32
Yeah, possibly
38:34
Yeah, that's that's that's that's mind you
38:36
And that is the central question in all biology
38:39
Now what is consciousness
38:40
So we said of no clue
38:41
Terrifyingly
38:42
Hmm spider what
38:43
And there's a few clues having said
38:44
That there's a bit of progress
38:45
But uh
38:46
But still that that's that's the greatest
38:48
The brain the mind
38:49
Remains the greatest scientific
38:50
And one of them already
38:52
And when we can't get near it
38:53
It might be judge either
38:54
With a conference in Dublin in 2018
38:56
Addressing this
38:57
And all the right neurosiders came
38:59
And even at the end of that
39:00
We said
39:00
We scratched our heads literally
39:02
And said what the hell is this about
39:03
You know, it's that
39:03
Yeah
39:04
And we consciousness is a product of biology
39:06
Remember so
39:08
If there is a biological system elsewhere
39:10
Consciousness more than likely
39:11
Will be part of everything
39:13
Well is it a consequence of biology
39:15
I mean this is interesting
39:15
I've just been having a conversation
39:17
With Toby Walsh
39:18
Here in Sydney on my radio show
39:19
Who's an artificial intelligence expert
39:22
He's got a new book out about AI
39:23
And you know he was sort of saying
39:25
The same thing that you just did
39:26
Which is it's impossible to know
39:27
Whether or not machines will be conscious
39:29
Because we don't even know why we're conscious
39:31
Yeah
39:32
But if we
39:33
I mean if you're not religious
39:34
And you don't think that we have a soul
39:36
And you think that
39:38
You know animals
39:39
Most animals at least are conscious
39:41
That there's something
39:42
That it's like to be them
39:43
As a result of what's going on inside their skulls
39:46
That there's some kind of
39:47
Complicated information processing going on
39:49
That is causing consciousness to arrive
39:52
The sense of being alive to arise
39:54
Then why couldn't an equally
39:56
Sophisticated network of information processing
40:00
Yeah
40:00
That's made out of silicon and microchips
40:03
Be conscious
40:04
Exactly
40:04
That doesn't have to be biological
40:06
You know
40:07
It's chemical
40:07
Let's put it that way
40:08
Yeah
40:09
Right
40:10
And you can make a chemical system
40:11
That's a machine
40:13
Can't you
40:13
But it's so complicated
40:14
It's almost impossible to envision you to see
40:16
I think we're like
40:17
You know the great analogy is
40:19
Like it had aliens could be among us
40:21
We can't even see them
40:22
Like when it ends
40:24
When it ends crawls on your aboot
40:26
That answer doesn't know what you exist
40:27
Does he
40:28
And yet you're there with the ads
40:29
You know what I mean
40:30
Yeah
40:31
They could be hiding
40:32
We're like
40:33
Yeah, we're like ants crawling on
40:35
Some big creatures boot at the moment
40:37
Basically
40:38
You're tough in the country
40:38
This kind of thing you see
40:40
So
40:40
I mean it's such an interesting topic
40:42
There's obviously
40:43
And there is lots of research happening
40:44
The closest we've got to it
40:45
By the way
40:46
I think it's at N grams
40:48
It's about ENG or AMS
40:50
They are interesting
40:50
That'll networks of neurons in the brain
40:52
And they seem to have some kind of emergent property
40:55
But still they were a long way off
40:56
Understanding these comments
40:58
In my opinion
40:58
I don't know if they should be told
40:59
What do they look?
41:00
What are ENG grams?
41:01
ENG grams
41:02
They're very complex kind of
41:03
And neural networks
41:04
There's the best way to describe them in the brain
41:07
And you can manipulate them
41:08
And create false memories
41:10
Amazingly
41:11
By targeting these pathways
41:12
For instance
41:13
So we know
41:13
Memory is a key part of consciousness
41:15
Of course
41:15
So there's lots of work going
41:16
And I'm not a neuroscientist
41:18
I endanger myself now
41:20
But I think the way in regard
41:21
But I'm very interested in this
41:23
No more than anybody else
41:24
So ENG grams
41:26
They reckon
41:27
Some of the closest
41:28
We're getting to understanding memory
41:30
For instance
41:30
And memory is a key part of consciousness
41:32
Yeah
41:33
What happens when you lose your memory
41:35
But you still have consciousness in dementia
41:37
But
41:37
The great question
41:38
Yeah, that's very good
41:40
Yeah, that's a good point
41:40
The people who memory sadly
41:42
They're diseases
41:43
So we need progress
41:44
I mean
41:45
Remember there's a desperate need
41:46
For better inside cell cybers
41:48
For instance
41:48
And again there's big, big effort happening
41:50
The really good question
41:51
That clearly memory begins to go
41:53
Why do we remember stuff from childhood
41:55
Not from later in life
41:56
For instance
41:57
So
41:58
And you know
41:59
That's the case with dementia as well
42:00
You can't remember what you did
42:01
Very much to go
42:02
But you can totally remember
42:03
What you were doing in your five years old
42:06
It's weird
42:06
So whatever was laid down there
42:08
Must have been so durable
42:10
In a way
42:10
It still persists
42:11
You see
42:12
Whereas more recent memories down
42:13
So again
42:13
That's another big mystery
42:15
But
42:15
But that's an area that's so important
42:17
Because as we get older
42:18
As we know the aging population
42:21
Dimension will go off a lot
42:23
And it's such a heartable disease for people
42:24
So again we'd like to see progress there
42:26
Basically
42:27
You know
42:27
That's my clarion call
42:29
They're from a scientist
42:30
And gets stuck in
42:31
And this is going to make something interesting
42:34
Have you heard the case look of the guy
42:35
I think he was a composer
42:37
Who had the most severe case of
42:40
Amnesia ever recorded
42:42
I think
42:43
I come up with what happened in a stroke or something
42:45
And his brain would almost completely reset
42:48
Every five or six minutes
42:50
So that he was almost like he was waking up
42:52
Into an entirely new universe
42:55
And his wife has written a book about it
42:57
Which I really want to read
42:58
But he would
42:59
You know he got to the point where he had a note book
43:01
A diary
43:02
And it was
43:03
It would be full of sentences like
43:06
This is the real me now
43:09
This is me now
43:10
And that would be scribbled out
43:11
And then underneath it would be like
43:12
No, no, no, this is me
43:13
That was not me
43:14
This is the real
43:15
This is the true me
43:16
God
43:16
And that would be scribbled out
43:17
It sounds like
43:18
And it's just
43:19
It makes you wonder
43:19
It makes you wonder
43:20
Who are you when you don't have content
43:23
Well, that's right
43:24
Yes, you'd wonder what's changing in his brain
43:26
In a sense
43:27
Wouldn't you
43:27
Would that could be imaged in some way
43:28
The big advance in neurobiology
43:30
Was the invention of the
43:32
Function of MRI machine
43:33
And follow bits of the brain
43:34
Working and changing and so on
43:36
You know, that was the huge advance
43:37
For you know
43:38
But in fact
43:38
In fact, that would be
43:39
That person would be a great subject of study
43:41
Wasn't they?
43:42
Yes
43:43
Except every five minutes he'd be
43:44
Trying to be
43:45
Wouldn't know why he's in an MRI
43:46
You'd see
43:47
That's the way he's saying
43:48
He gets exactly
43:49
Yeah
43:49
He gets exactly
43:49
Yeah
43:50
Yeah
43:50
And was this personality changing every five minutes as well
43:53
What a terrifying prospect
43:54
Yeah
43:55
I don't think it was
43:56
Yeah, I don't think it was
43:57
It was the same guy
43:58
But you know
43:59
All of a sudden just had no
44:00
No
44:01
No
44:02
Past
44:03
Right
44:04
So just
44:05
Pivoting back to your field of expertise then
44:07
What's the basic
44:08
Like can you just explain
44:10
What our immune system is actually doing
44:11
I don't have
44:12
For me the immune system is just a metaphor
44:14
Like when I talk about
44:15
The vascular system I can picture
44:17
Vains and arteries
44:19
And like when we talk about other
44:21
Aspects like I sort of have an image in my head of
44:23
The DNA double helix or something like that
44:25
But the immune system
44:26
Like what actually is it
44:29
Yeah, it just blows in different cell types really
44:31
That that's where the complexity comes from
44:32
I began the first studies began in the early sort of 20th century
44:36
When they begin to notice
44:37
To put begin white blood cells
44:39
Going into sites of infection
44:40
And what are those white blood cells
44:42
What do they do and you know
44:43
And then scientists began to study these cells
44:46
And they began to realize
44:47
That the cells were making interesting things
44:49
Antibodies
44:50
Being a great example
44:51
They kind of lock on to a bacteria
44:53
And kill it say
44:54
Or allow the immune system to digest it in various ways
44:57
So it's a very complex network of different cell types
45:00
Making sort of
45:01
You know sort of
45:02
I guess weapons and making ammunition
45:04
And making all kinds of things
45:06
To fire at the infectious agents
45:08
So it evolved basically to fight bacteria virus
45:11
As a parasites and so on
45:13
Reliced it is complex
45:14
Because it has to be regulated very carefully
45:16
As we just discussed
45:17
Because it goes out of control
45:19
It is like an army
45:20
We use that analogy a lot actually
45:22
You know
45:22
And then you have a war against the invader
45:25
And you clear the invader
45:26
With all your weapons
45:27
And your machinery and all that
45:29
Sometimes it becomes a civil war
45:31
Where the army attacks your own tissues
45:33
Is the way to think of it you see
45:34
So the army is the best metaphor we have really for us
45:37
I mean I'm across all the metaphors
45:39
But I'm not across what's actually happening
45:41
So I had COVID a few months ago
45:44
As many many people have in the past year
45:46
I was a triple-vaxed
45:49
It was mild
45:50
But what's actually happening when
45:52
So I'm feeling
45:53
Like I'm feeling really tired
45:55
When I start getting COVID
45:56
And I start thinking
45:57
Oh this isn't great
46:00
What if you zoomed in on a particular part of my anatomy
46:04
Would you be able to see a virus
46:07
Would you be able to see my cell
46:09
A cell of mine doing something physically to a
46:12
Absolutely
46:12
Actual virus
46:14
We could indeed
46:14
And we can see exactly what's going on
46:16
And we can read
46:17
We can do that in a lab as well
46:18
By taking cells and infecting them
46:20
We use that as a model obviously
46:21
As well as infecting people
46:23
But we can take animals and infect them
46:25
And we can see the virus
46:26
So we can see the immune system
46:27
Taking up the virus
46:28
What happens is the virus
46:30
The first step in the process
46:31
Is the immune sense of the virus
46:33
Your immune cells are bristling with sensors
46:36
To try to look for viruses basically
46:38
And the main way we sense this virus
46:40
Is through sensing its RNA
46:41
Because I do not know just the RNA virus
46:43
There are sensors in your body
46:45
To pick up on the RNA
46:46
And latch onto it literally
46:48
You know
46:48
One is called a regi
46:50
For it's
46:50
And that's in every cell in your body
46:52
If the virus is there
46:53
The regi detects it
46:55
And that's the alarm now
46:56
It's always the virus
46:57
Intruder you see
46:58
And the regi then turns on a set of genes
47:00
That are immune genes
47:01
That begin to combat the virus
47:03
A very good example
47:04
I think something to fear on us
47:05
And again, dare I say the Aussies
47:07
Have made discoveries in interference as well
47:10
In fact, I shout out to one of the best mates
47:12
Paul Herzog is in Monash
47:14
She's been a working on interferons for years
47:15
For us
47:16
You know what?
47:16
So the interferon
47:17
They get made
47:18
Interferons get made
47:19
And guess what they do
47:20
They stop the virus replicated
47:22
They're a great thing
47:23
You know
47:23
Because the virus can't divide
47:24
If you stick interferons on the cell
47:27
It shuts down the cell's machinery
47:28
That the virus hijacks by the way
47:30
You might know
47:30
The virus is very simple
47:32
Hasn't got many genes
47:33
And hijacks are
47:34
Our own bodies in a way to copy itself
47:36
The interferons stop all that
47:38
And that's why kids are so resistant by the way
47:41
Because kids make a massive amount of interference
47:44
So if a child in hails the virus
47:45
In the robot airways and their noses
47:47
Then they make a huge amount of interferon
47:49
And that stops the virus
47:50
And it tracks the cat to bite
47:51
And as you get older
47:53
The reason my older people are susceptible
47:55
Is your immune system begins to go off the boil
47:57
Like making parts of your body
47:58
Yeah
47:58
You know
47:59
And now the virus is to foothold
48:00
And we know the interferon response
48:02
That's one example
48:03
Judging away
48:04
But I can give you loads of it
48:05
But again, Peter Darkey
48:07
A Nobel Prize winning Australia
48:09
And remember
48:09
Who went over
48:10
He was the guy
48:11
Who discovered
48:12
How the immune system presents bits of viruses
48:15
To see it
48:16
You know
48:16
So
48:17
So they think of the MHC
48:18
It's called
48:19
You know
48:19
And they latch onto the virus
48:21
They take a piece of it
48:22
And show it to the T cells
48:24
The T cells are very important
48:25
To cells over the immune system
48:27
Peter got the Nobel Prize
48:28
Because before his discovery
48:29
We didn't really know that part of it
48:31
You know, how bits of virus were being shown
48:33
As aware to the key troops
48:35
So it was
48:36
And then
48:37
And Peter was discovery was so important
48:38
Because I gave us a big insight
48:40
Into how the immune system sees viruses
48:42
This happens with COVID
48:43
You can see with COVID
48:44
You can see
48:44
It's called antigen presentation
48:46
Is the name for this, by the way
48:47
You're presenting an antigen from the virus
48:50
And how the immune system can see it
48:52
Opening up a little box
48:53
And like a little briefcase
48:54
And saying
48:54
Here you go
48:55
That's what this is
48:56
Yeah
48:56
That's what I'm saying
48:57
And you're talking about the analogies
48:59
And the more that I said
49:00
I'll give you that
49:01
It's interesting
49:02
You mentioned Peter
49:03
Peter Doherty
49:04
Because his outfit
49:05
The Doherty Institute is the main
49:08
Is probably the most prestigious
49:10
Institute in Australia now
49:11
So all of the
49:12
All Australians
49:12
Maybe government was getting its COVID advice
49:14
From the Doherty Institute in Australia
49:15
It's very familiar with that name
49:17
From getting a lot of
49:18
Public Health advice
49:19
During the pandemic
49:20
And Josh
49:20
From them
49:21
Even better
49:22
He's Irish, sure, man
49:23
He's told me
49:24
Anyway
49:25
I think he's trying to answer
49:27
Three of Actors of the y'all are saying
49:28
Well, I suppose Doherty
49:29
I suppose Doherty
49:30
Yeah, you'll get away
49:31
Give him away
49:32
Um
49:33
I've mentioned aspirin with regards to heart disease
49:35
But I'd forgotten about aspirin's role
49:37
Aspirin's role as an anti-inflammatory
49:39
Uh
49:39
Yeah
49:40
As well
49:40
Can you tell us the background
49:42
To the development
49:43
I can
49:44
I can indeed
49:45
I did my PhD in London
49:47
In the place where that was
49:48
Discovered actually before aspirin
49:50
Was shown on how it works
49:51
It was a mystery for a long time
49:53
That goes back to herbal
49:54
Stolf Josh
49:55
It was first shown that will over
49:56
Was anti-inflammatory you see
49:58
And from the willow tree
50:00
That said like a herbal thing
50:01
Gone back hundreds of years
50:02
Someone purifies from willow
50:04
Things called salicylates
50:06
From selic
50:06
Switched the name of the willow
50:08
And then salicylates
50:09
Where were the basis for aspirin
50:10
And it was made in the early 1900s
50:12
As an anti-inflammatory
50:14
Nobody knew how it worked
50:15
Right
50:16
Finally in the 70s
50:17
They discovered
50:18
Aspirin blocks things called prostaglandins
50:21
Now prostaglandins are made by your immune system
50:24
And they cause pain
50:25
And swelling
50:25
You know these prostaglandins
50:27
Again, another chemical factor news
50:29
An aspirin stops production of prostaglandins
50:31
So hey, press though
50:32
That was discovered
50:33
And then on the back of that then
50:34
Came drugs like ibuprofen
50:36
Paracetamol
50:37
They all do the same thing
50:38
They all stop prostaglandins
50:39
And that's why they're anti-inflammatory you see
50:41
And they're useful
50:42
In certain situations
50:44
Why do they stop the disease
50:45
Why do they stop pain
50:47
Well prostaglandins
50:48
Will sensitize nerve endings
50:50
Pain is the part of the response to infection
50:53
By the way
50:54
If your damage is your hand
50:55
And it gets injured say
50:57
You want to guard it
50:58
Don't you
50:58
So pain is a normal response
51:01
To protect that damage tissue
51:03
So if you're using your hand
51:04
So that's a repair
51:05
You know
51:05
But the trouble is
51:06
It can go off guilt or again
51:07
And the pain can be too intense
51:09
And all the rest of it
51:10
And prostaglandins are made in that injury
51:12
Situation
51:13
And then they're promoting that pain response
51:15
And aspirin will stop that
51:16
Is pain always a response to something real
51:18
What about when I pop up ibuprofen
51:19
Because I've got a headache
51:21
Yeah
51:21
Yeah, well again the headache
51:23
Is being caused by prostaglandins
51:25
Open your head now basically
51:26
A causing vasodilation
51:28
And enhancing the pain response there
51:30
You see
51:30
And that's actually a bad thing
51:31
You know
51:32
And that area of pain
51:34
Is a very important area remember
51:35
We need better pain killers
51:37
That are addictive
51:38
But that's a huge research area
51:40
It took me almost
51:40
Because pain is a feature of any diseases
51:42
You know
51:42
Now prostaglandins are causing what's called acute pain
51:45
So just in response to injury
51:46
You know
51:47
There's more chronic pain
51:48
And we need better ways
51:49
To treat that in many ways
51:50
So pain is a very important area of research
51:53
I won't keep you forever Luke
51:55
But let's just wrap up by thinking about
51:56
How we can best make people scientifically literate
51:59
Without resorting to education education education
52:02
Because I know that you're in educator
52:03
What's the look hanging fruit for people
52:05
Who want
52:06
Who are committed to the
52:08
To the project of being reasonable
52:10
And of following evidence
52:12
To do so
52:13
Are there cultural or communal
52:15
Or I don't know
52:16
Educational things that individuals can do
52:18
Well as you said
52:20
That likes to Carl Sagan
52:21
And so on
52:21
There's some fantastic popular science books out there
52:24
I'd start with that
52:25
Because they're so superb
52:26
You written
52:27
As you know
52:27
It's brilliant
52:28
There's a whole range of them in a way
52:30
You know
52:31
So reading
52:32
These are the popular science books is great
52:34
And obviously through TV
52:36
And media
52:36
And our conversation helps
52:37
I hope
52:38
You know
52:38
Because
52:38
Just just open your mind to science
52:40
Is the trick here in a sense
52:41
So find
52:42
Find a writer
52:43
Not more than in literature
52:44
I'll bet the certain writers you hate
52:46
You know
52:46
If you might find a writer you like
52:47
You know
52:49
Whatever
52:50
Float your vote
52:50
You know
52:51
Just just get stuck in
52:52
Because
52:53
Science is
52:54
In my opinion anyway
52:56
Science is one of the most
52:57
Wonderful things we have
52:58
As a species
52:58
Because it's a way to explain the world
53:00
Explain the world
53:01
And then secondly maybe
53:02
Get something useful
53:03
That we need out of it
53:04
And Covid is the great example of that
53:05
You know
53:06
Without science
53:07
We've been a really bad place with Covid
53:09
Like if Covid had cropped up
53:10
A medieval times
53:11
It would have killed millions
53:12
You know
53:13
And yeah
53:13
We can have this stuff
53:14
We can have this stuff
53:16
And indeed it did
53:16
But yeah
53:17
But I'm talking about
53:18
Not like that
53:19
Yeah, hundreds of millions
53:20
Hundreds of millions
53:21
Forzaicely
53:22
Yeah
53:22
So
53:23
So in other words
53:23
Science, science
53:24
To stop that
53:25
And then
53:25
She was a great reader
53:27
While I'm knowledge
53:28
I will add to the
53:29
Reg to the general recommendation of books
53:31
That Cosmos by Carl Sagan
53:33
Is amazing
53:34
And Dawkins' best book
53:35
I think about this
53:37
Sort of
53:37
About the sort of
53:37
Majesty of Sciences
53:39
Is called Unweaving the Rainbow
53:41
And Sagan's best book about
53:43
Is the Demon Haunted World
53:44
I think it's subtitled
53:45
Science as a candle in the dark
53:47
And it's
53:48
Incredibly prescient
53:49
When you read some of the passages
53:51
From decades ago
53:52
He's writing about
53:53
A sort of scientifically
53:54
Literate society
53:56
That sort of dabbles
53:57
In
53:57
Witchcraft and Astrology
53:59
And things like that
54:00
And you know
54:00
Gates their horoscopes
54:02
And elects
54:04
Sort of populist
54:07
You know
54:07
Celebrities as their leaders
54:09
And doesn't really think
54:10
Through things very rationally
54:11
And you sort of
54:12
Think about Trump
54:13
And
54:14
Johnson
54:14
Still resonating
54:15
Yeah, we haven't changed
54:17
Watch out, we tap
54:18
And judge over those
54:18
Time-outs of yours
54:20
Well, you're doing your bit, Luke
54:22
So thanks for being with us
54:23
And it's lovely to talk to you
54:24
Take care
54:25
Great, thanks very much
54:26
Josh, that was great fun
54:27
Thanks a lot
54:33
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