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Founding and Leading with Integrity | with Sean Gorman · GAIN Momentum

• ​GAIN Momentum episode #53- Founding and Leading with Integrity | with Sean Gorman === Adam Mogelonsky: Welcome to the GAIN Momentum podcast, focusing on timeless lessons from senior leaders in hospitality, travel, food service, and technology. I'm joined by my co host here, Michael Cohen. And our special guest today is Sean Gorman, president and CEO of Safety Net Access. Sean, how are you? How are you? Sean Gorman: I'm doing very well, thank you. Thanks for having me. Adam Mogelonsky: Great to have you here. We're recording on a Friday and we structure this podcast around four key questions that we ask our guests. So, Sean, first question. When it comes to scaling a business, what is a single piece of advice you would give entrepreneurs from your perspective as a professional in hotel technology? Sean Gorman: Well, I, I think when it, when I think of anything, even in business, I sort of tend to go back to my sports background. I played hockey for a very long time. And I think if I were to give a single piece of advice, it'd probably be, um, That individuals don't win championships, teams do. And I think that when you put together a team, that's going to be the difference between a winner and a loser in my mind. And, uh, you know, I think, I think you can probably point to a lot of great teams that had superb individuals and unbelievable talent. But I think if you put together a team that doesn't necessarily mesh, whether it be in the lock room or in the the boardroom or whatever it might be, I don't think you've got a winning team. So I think my single greatest advice would be make sure you put together a great team of people because that's what's going to win it for you. Michael Cohen: A question on that, Sean, and we know each other a little bit over the years. From a leadership perspective, one thing to, acquire the talent, coach the talent, how do you have a higher probability of ensuring that the mesh is the mesh? Sean Gorman: Well, I mean, I, I hate to say it this way, but it's the truth. There's a lot of trial by error in that. I'd like to say that I'm, I, I, I hit, you know, a 500 on my, uh, you know, on picking the right individuals all the time, but it doesn't always work that way. And I think it, it takes time and you have to find people that are going to buy into your, uh, philosophy. And I don't think that's necessarily an easy thing. So I think it's a, I mean, I hate to put it that way, but it's really trial and error. It really is for me. It has been over the years. Sometimes I've gotten very, very lucky right out of the gate. And then other times there wasn't so lucky. Adam Mogelonsky: I also want to drill into this idea of meshing because a lot of times the best teams are those that disagree from time to time. And that way you, you know what you're throwing against the wall and what actually sticks, what actually can stand the test of time. So how do you, what advice would you have for finding the balance between disorganized conflict and organized conflict? Sean Gorman: I think you have to bring in people that. are oftentimes better than you in those positions and people that are going to challenge you. I think the only way you're going to be successful as a leader is to be able to take feedback and take it well. Certainly, if I'm going to give feedback to my employees, I'm going to have to be able to take it myself. You know, oftentimes you hear people say the guy that makes the most jokes about people can't handle it himself. And I think that's very true in a lot of business. I've seen a lot of leaders that sort of can't take the feedback or don't want to take it, or don't think they deserve to take it. And I make it very clear with my employees that if you've got feedback or something you want to say about how the business is run, specifically how their particular piece of the business is run. Because, you know, when you've got something that's doing, somebody that's doing their particular job day in and day out, let's face it, they're going to know it better than I will. So I need to listen to them. I need to be open to what they have to say. And I think that's how you get a group that meshes. But you have to sort of lead the way with that. You have to be the one that's willing to take the lead. Um, the criticisms really, quite honestly, I mean, they albeit constructive criticism, sometimes not so much, but I think, uh, for me, I have to be able to take that from my people and I, because I want to get the feedback, because if I throw out an idea and it's horrible, I want my people around me to tell me, Sean, I don't think that's such a good idea. So I think that's how you do it. Adam Mogelonsky: Well, one more point here, and going back to your first analogy about hockey, and we're talking about scalability here, and hockey, every game is only five guys on the ice, plus the goalie. Uh, but, uh, When you scale a business, your teams change, your teams grow, the roles shift. How can you preserve good team dynamics while scaling through the stages of startup, early scale up, uh, you know, the classic model of village to city to country, whatever terminology you want to use. How do you preserve the teams? Sean Gorman: I can tell you right now, it's not very easy because it happened to us very quickly. I mean, in each year, quite honestly, we've grown. such an enormous amount that I have to sometimes look at my team and say, maybe you're not the right guy for the job anymore. And sometimes that's very difficult for me because if you know me as a person, I become very friendly with my employees. I don't, um, I'm not one of those guys that can easily, you know, hire and fire people. I take things to heart. Um, I don't apologize for it at all, but I think that sometimes there are people, but look at, at the end of the day, if, if I trust the people, and maybe they're not the right person for that particular job, then I'll find another role for them. But I think that as you grow and you scale, You have to understand that maybe the person you started with isn't necessarily the person you end with. And I don't think that's a bad thing. I mean, for myself included, I've had to change multiple times over the years to do this and get better. And I'm constantly, searching for People that can be mentors to me, people that can guide me, people have been there that done it before because I haven't done it before. So this is all a first for me. So I have to realize that sometimes I'm not necessarily the one that's right for the job at a particular time, but since I own the company, I got to try to figure it out. So I'm, I'm constantly searching for that. I'm constantly trying to educate myself. Um, and I think it's really important to have mentors or people that you can talk to, that you can trust, You know, a lot of people will say, you know, they bring in, um, a board of directors. I personally don't have a board of directors, but I do in the sense that I have a board of directors that are very close, personal friends that are, are very successful in, in many different industries that help me out on a daily basis. And I actually like the fact. That they don't have skin in the game. And some people may disagree with that. To me, that's very important. Um, the decisions I make don't necessarily affect their lives, but they care about me as a person. So, and they have no problem. These are all people that I've known for a very long time that have no problem disagreeing with anything I'm saying to go back to sort of your earlier statement. so sort of, that's how I do it. I've got a board of directors, but it's not typical board of directors as we all would think of it to be. Michael Cohen: And also, I think what's interesting, listen, Sean, you have, uh, you know, uh, an interesting leadership style in my opinion. I think, I think I had a feeling that this podcast would be a little more about leadership and about growth and organization than, than feeds and speeds and, you know, IP networks perhaps. Uh, and that's all very important to them. We all are experts in many ways in those things. But what is interesting is from my experience of knowing you a little bit and obviously knowing the company for many years, and working with the company as a third party sometimes as well, is there's like this clarity, and take this the right way, limited sophistication sometimes. It's a very sophisticated company, but the energy is not always sophisticated. And a lot of times these veneers are put in front of organizations, internal from management to the staff, or from company leadership to external client base. And what's fascinating, I've been watching for years, is it's a highly accessible organization. Internally and externally. And that's not typical. So, I don't know if you have a comment on that. Sean Gorman: Yeah, I actually like that analysis. I, I'm the first to tell people when I don't know something. I am a very fiery person by nature. Um, I'm all about doing things the right way, being fair about what I do and how I do it. but I am very accessible. I, I do, um, I give a lot of my clients, if not all of them, my cell phone number so they can, uh, get a hold of me even at three in the morning, which happened recently. Michael Cohen: And Sean, just one more thing, to put perspective on that, how many properties do you have under management in the various organizations today? Sean Gorman: We're over 5, 000. Michael Cohen: So, that's a real statement, you know. Sean Gorman: to be treated? I mean, I want to be able to have access to somebody. And I will tell you in the hospitality industry, for me, Nobody abuses that, which is, which is really kind of special. So I will give it to them and they they'll pick it up when they need it, but they, they certainly don't abuse it. And, um, I believe in old school, I believe in getting out there and meeting people, talking to them, talking to people on the phone. I answer my own phone. I answer calls that come in sometimes for help desk, uh, questions and they'll get me on the phone. They'll say, well, can you get me to the right person? I said, well, if I can't get it done, we've got a real problem. I still make cold calls. Um, I enjoy that part of the business. I can tell you a story, which is kind of interesting, uh, many, many years ago, and I won't give you the name because Michael, we'll talk offline because you'll know who it is, but I had a gentleman call me. That was a younger CEO. I was younger at the time too. And, uh, I got a call and she says to me, I have so and so on the line for you. So and so on the line for me. So I hung up the phone. So they called back, says, I got so and so on the phone, I hung up the phone. She calls back a third time. She says, Mr. Gorman, I think we have a problem. My, my phone keeps disconnecting. I said, no, it's not disconnecting. I'm hanging up the phone. And I said, and I'm not being rude, but I'm making a point. I know this gentleman personally and whether I do or don't, I answer my own phone calls. I said, if he wants to call me, he actually has my cell phone. Just tell him to pick the phone and call me. So I really am put off by that kind of stuff. Like I told you guys earlier, before the, before this started, I'm not a big guy for, um, titles or anything else. really believe in doing business with people. We're all, you know, everybody's in the same situation, especially with these hotels, when people call. I try to tell my, my employees that all the time. This guy calls at that particular point in time. That's the biggest deal for him because his hotel is down. That's all he's concerned about. He doesn't care. And it doesn't make him a bad guy, but he doesn't care if you have 15 other things on your plate. He needs it done and he needs it done now. And you have to realize you, you know, you have to really put yourself in their shoes and say. Alright, I've got a hotel filled with guests. And an access points down or the gateway's gone down and we're his way out. So, and sometimes listen, it's going to happen and, uh, things are going to go down, but it's, it's how you react to that. And so I try to really put a lot of time into that piece of my business to make us a little different. So I'm proud of the way you described us. Um, I think that's definitely who we are. Adam Mogelonsky: know, the phrase that you reminded me of is, the customer isn't always right, but the customer is always king. And I think that's important because, yeah, you have your priorities, but they have theirs. And, you know, their needs need to be addressed because they're the customer. Michael Cohen: And also, just let's be clear, and maybe we'll discuss a little bit about, you know, company's position in the ecosystem, but that's maybe for later in the conversation. A service provider provides service. That's the end of the conversation. Sean Gorman: Correct. Michael Cohen: A service provider provides service. Sean Gorman: Oh, I agree with you. I, you know, we are, we are in what I've always called the white glove industry. And that's the way we have to perform. And we're not always going to perform up to par. We're going to have bad days, things are going to go wrong. But I think the important thing for me was, and I think as a non techie in being involved with more technical people, one of the things that I tried to instill in them, I think when you give a question and I know I'm throwing out a blanket here, but I'm not insulting anybody, but. When you throw out a question to a technical person, their first thought is, Okay, let me dissect this problem. Let me go back to my cube and figure out the, you know, the equation or whatever it is I need to figure out. And then I'm going to call that customer back when I have that resolution. For me, it's completely the opposite. You immediately call the customer back. You develop that relationship and you say, Hey, listen, I'm going to go work on this. I don't know what the problem is, and that's tough for people sometimes. You've got to call somebody that's angry at you to call up and say, I have no clue, but I've never had an issue with that. But that's one of the things that I've really had to train sort of my technical people to do more is to call the person back first and say, hey, I got your message. I understand you're having a problem. We're here for you, but I don't know what it is yet. I've got to go back and do the homework. And then I said, even when you go back to do your homework, Make sure you keep tapping back to them. Say, hey, listen, I'm still on it. Because as far as they know, they're in the middle of, they're in the middle of hell right now, right? Everything's going crazy and nobody's touching up to them. So you have to touch the client constantly. So, I think we try to do a good job at that. Um, at least I try to remind our people to make sure that's a priority. Adam Mogelonsky: I am a technical person and I've made that mistake. Many times. So thank you for, thank you for reminding me about that. And, um, that is a good point to lead into our second question, discussing just that and potentially getting back to gateways, uh, or, you know, a access points going down. So Sean, what are some of the common pitfalls or failures you have witnessed that owners should look to avoid when scaling their business? Sean Gorman: I hate to sort of repeat, because I think I harped on this a little bit earlier, but for me, it's hiring the wrong people. For me, it's the single biggest pitfall. Doing that can impact the morale, the synergy, um, you know, the ability to grow my business. And I think And you, you, you asked me a question earlier on this, Michael, but, I don't think it's a science. I, I think it's, it's more of an art trying to find the right people. and my biggest thing is more so than in, in this, again, I oftentimes go against the flow of everything that people will preach, but I'll take a person that I can trust over a person that I think is. Trust is a lights out candidate in that particular skill set. If I've got somebody that's pretty darn good, but I can trust, and I know will buy into my philosophy, I'm going to go with them. 100 percent of the time. And I think at, um, at my company, you know, our, our tagline that you see everywhere that you hear about is integrity first. It's a mantra that I live by in my life. Um, and I think it reflects who we are and how we treat each other within our company, which is important, but also outside of our company with our clients. And when I do find people. That don't fit into that integrity first attitude, they don't last very long with us. and believe me, I give people second chances, probably third chances sometimes too, but when I realize that they're not a reflection of what I want the company to be, I don't, we won't keep them very long and they won't fit in. Um, that's certainly one thing. I think also, uh, you know, another pitfall would be to. Especially in technology to put myself in a box, I think where I'm thinking maybe too small. And sometimes I think that happens because for all of us, our first reaction is we get comfortable, we get nervous. Um, we don't want to take too many chances, but I think that you always have to be willing to branch out, try new things, um, and push the envelope. And for me personally, I want to push the envelope anyway because sort of that's the way I live. I like to make life a little more exciting. I don't like boring, but I think when you have a tendency to think too small and always stay in your lane, which I know is a big line people use all the time. When you don't just kind of bump out every once in a while. I don't think you end up expanding the business. Michael Cohen: I think what's fascinating with this conversation and using because I'm going to use a sports analogy again is you remind me of when they talk about professional sports, there's not a lot of. individual owners of sports teams anymore. There's corporate owners of sports teams or conglomerates. And, you know, Steve Cohen with the Mets, let's say right now, and a couple others, even though his, his, he spends a lot of money, which is nice. But, um, I think, Sean, is a big part of what I've seen, um, from the energy and the growth and the, and the essence of safety and access and your affiliated companies is, you know, it's a bit of a throwback. You're, sorry, you're a bit of a throwback, which I know you actually love when I say that, but, um, uh, It is a similar scenario where, you know, committees and board of directors, these are all, of course, professional appropriate scenarios, but there's also a space for, uh, The kind of, entrepreneurial leadership that some, we have a, we have left startups and scale ups, but usually when they get to your size, they're already corporate corporate. Of course you have a corporate structure, but you don't get it yet. This is gone from the essence and energy of many businesses at your size. And it's not the case with Safety Net Access at this time. And I'm curious why that is. Sean Gorman: I think it's probably me. I think it's my philosophy. It goes back to sort of the way I was brought up, the way I do things. I've also been burned. And so, because of that, I'm, I'm less, excited to grab partners, oftentimes, and when I do grab a partner, even for business, you know, just sort of a business partnership, I'm very, very careful to make sure I partner with the right people and right company. And that probably comes from being burned. But I think, you know, the biggest thing for me was when I look back at what happened during COVID, um, COVID was a horrible time for this industry. You know, we had every hotel calling us saying, I can't pay this month. I can't do this. And, and listen. Rightly so, like I understood it. but for me, I mean, we had to, we had to lay off people, which I mean, if you know anything about me, even when I'm coaching hockey teams, I'm sick for two weeks while I have to tell some poor kid he can't make my team, I'd put every kid in the team. So when I was having to lay off people at that particular time that they're from their livelihood, I was sick to my stomach for months and, but what we did during that time, and I don't know if. I've told you about this, Michael, but I'm a, I'm, I'm always going back to my coaching days and what I've told my kids and how I teach them to do things. And it was always about, you know, if you see a fire, a lot of people are gonna panic and run, but you've gotta run and see if somebody needs help, somebody might need rescuing. So my idea was, and, and you know, all the books you read, um, and you can read thousands of 'em, and I do, I read a lot of 'em on entrepreneurialship and leaders and things like that. It's that when the times are toughest. If you don't show your true colors at that point, there's something wrong. So, right. So you, you've got to either go this way or that way. And so during COVID, I figured this is a, this is a pivotal time for everybody. And that's when I decided I wasn't going to go hide. I was going to start new divisions. And that's when I started the event productions company. That's when I started Amicus. And I really started to put our time into developing. our select networks software company into a real, uh, viable company. So, and that was, I mean, when you talk about, you know, your question there on failures and pitfalls. And I mean, that was the, probably the scariest time for us because we had basically zero income and I still kept a lot of people on and that was, that was tough to do. So, Adam Mogelonsky: Well, moving into our third question now, and you mentioned a lot of the divisions that are within Safety and Access, so maybe there's a good segue here to discuss those in a little bit more depth. Sean, what do you see as the key opportunities and challenges for hospitality technology companies in 2025 and beyond? Sean Gorman: well, not even just necessarily our particular space, but anybody in general, I think you've got to make sure that you're always reinventing yourself and you're always staying up with the latest and greatest. So that's why I got to make sure that the guys I bring, the technology guys, and again, I got to bring in a lot of younger guys now because they know a few more things that we don't know. And, um, I got to make sure that we're sort of on Michael Cohen: Speak for yourself, Jon. Speak for yourself, please. Sean Gorman: I used to say I'm that young kid from Boston. I don't think I could do that anymore. but I, I think it's just, you know, you, you've got AI coming into every aspect of every business. So that's something that's intriguing to me, but also very, very scary. So we're starting to utilize that sort of with. With helpdesk stuff, so we can sort of, figure out trends that are going on, like who's calling, why are they calling, um, even specific to a certain hotel that has specific, like let's say a gateway and access points. These two combinations with these two companies get, you know, this much more calls than a company where I did it otherwise. So the AI can sort of help us to sort of try to figure that stuff out. That's exciting. Some of the stuff scares me on that, but I think the biggest challenge for me is to make sure that I'm staying up all night. With all the latest and greatest stuff that we have to do. Adam Mogelonsky: Well, the latest and greatest, there is so much of that. And I'm wondering, because of all the various technologies that are emerging, you've mentioned AI, but how do you keep your focus? How do you maintain what to actually look at and what you think will be applicable within the next 12 months, the next 24 months, instead of things that You know, I'm, I'm, I'm immediately drawn to talk about, uh, Web3 and the Metaverse, things we know are coming, but aren't necessarily applicable just to your specific business in the immediate period for generating new revenues and cashflow. How do you keep the focus in terms of what's coming out there and what you deem to be applicable within the framework that is your companies? Sean Gorman: Yeah, I think it's, um, for me personally, it's very difficult for me to keep my focus on that kind of stuff. I have to utilize, the people that work for me that I know are smarter than I am when it comes to the technology. And so I have them, I, what I do is I try to give them. The ability to go out and do that so that they don't get so overwhelmed with the job that they're doing, that they don't have the ability to go out and have the time to go look at those things. Now, it's not easy, especially with a company like ours. we are sort of all in, and I have a lot of people in my company that, I think oftentimes, probably, like me, in the sense, because some of these people have been with me for 20 years since I started. They're used to doing it all themselves. And sometimes we have to all learn to share the wealth a little bit, and share the duties. And that's tough. We, we, we have that instinct. But you know what? I know I can do it faster than this guy that I just brought in, so I'm just going to do it and get it done instead of taking the time to train that guy and say, this is how you do it. Um, so I try to give them the time to do it, but I let the people that are smarter than me in the, uh, in the tech side of things do that. Now, I try to keep my eyes and ears open all the time, and try to read as much as I can. But at the end of the day, like Michael knows this, I'm not a tech guy. Right? I consider myself more of a sales leader type of person than I am a technical person. So I'm going to leave that up to my guys. I've got, you know, my CTO, Todd Schobert's been with me for 22 years, maybe, in this business. So he really knows this business. so I, you know, I'm really lucky with the people that, that, uh, surround me. So, Michael Cohen: Yeah, but also Sean, I think that because of having people like Todd and others specifically in your technical leadership, it has enabled you to be freed up to have con conversations and dialogues with customer bases, with head HQs, you know, where you can listen to them and, you know, uh, it's easy to say, tough to do is. We all don't have to be the smartest person in the room. We have to be the most effective person in the room, especially when we're in a room with our client base. And, you know, we all know that this, this industry is challenging. Hotels are hard. It's lovely. We, we all love the energy. It's about people. Um, you know, it's about service. And that means many different things for many different people in different areas of the industry. But if, you know, if, if as a leader or a, or a technology company, And if someone in the organization doesn't have the capacity or the skill set to be able to be a bit of a sponge to the outside in, then just pushing feeds and speeds versus, we've had a conversation, Adam, recently about outcomes versus technology, like delivering outcomes for your clients, but listening to what they need, what their challenges are, and then hopefully having a service pack or a portfolio of technology that can deliver those outcomes. Build that gap, but you've still got to be able to listen, and you have to have the ability to have relationships with your customers, too. Um, Sean Gorman: No, I, I, I agree with you. And I think from, with my background as a salesperson, I was taught very early on to shut your mouth and listen. And so I, I'm very, very good at that. and you're right. I think that oftentimes your clients are going to tell you what's coming up next. They're certainly going to tell you what they want. but I do, you know, you brought up a point there that it's, it's a difficult business. It is. Um, the hospitality space is, uh, challenging and difficult, and I think some people don't realize that. Some people that want to get into it don't realize the work involved to do it. But what's interesting about it is that now that I've sort of veered outside of hospitality, because I've honed my skills in hospitality, I am so much better outside of hospitality in the sense that I'm better against all of that. The people that I have to go against. So when I walk in and they give me a challenge, I look at it and say, well, you know, what I'm held to over here and the standards that are required over here aren't necessarily the same here. So my guys, it's, it's, um, you never want to use the word easy. Nothing's easy and you shouldn't go into anything thinking it's easy, but Michael Cohen: It's more streamlined, let's use that, or optimized, you know, Sean Gorman: yes. But I think when you, when you leave an industry or, or when you, you move. to do more business someplace else, but really the same type of work, but you've been in a business that's, um, you know, it's, it's, I guess, probably like the equivalent of Bill Belichick in football. You go from that very disciplined. Now when you go to the next place, you know, you already know how to organize yourself. You're going to study the plays. You're going to know that that guy needs to do his job. You're going to do your job and you're going to do it extremely well. And then when you move over to this other team, it's like, okay, I got this down, the rest of you need to figure it out. But. You know, so I, it's been very helpful for me to move over because I've sort of honed my skills so well here in hospitality. Michael Cohen: Well, I've always, I've always thought that, um, the challenges and the opportunities of hospitality and the technology or otherwise space has created a unseen ghost barrier to entry for other companies coming, who think, well, we're already in this vertical or we're a horizontal company, we'll just double our revenue or add a new product line and slam dunk and they get burnt. They have challenges, they make mistakes, frankly, everyone makes mistakes to a point, but it is a barrier to entry that people don't talk about. People only talk about that it's hard. I think it's actually excellent that it's challenging because it, it also creates metal. It creates, you know, if a company is going to survive or an executive is going to survive, they're going to do it because they have metal in this industry. How's that for, Sean Gorman: Yeah. Michael Cohen: hockey talk, Sean Gorman: No, that's very good. No, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I mean, we have, um, It is. The barrier to entry is, that's a perfect phrase, Michael, because, uh, that's exactly right. It's not easy to get into this business. There's a lot, the hospitality space requires a lot and they should. I mean, you know, these guests want to come into these hotels and stay here and they want the same type of technology that they're going to get at home when they're sitting at home and they want it to be that quick and that easy. And, um, so in order to do that, you know, we've got to be really, really good at what we do. Michael Cohen: And also, we have to have, like many industries, but we have to, and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, Sean. I'm not saying that we're the same, but, you know, we have to really partner with clients. if a hotelier was on instead of you, it would be a similar conversation, um, and they would say, our suppliers, our technical partners, they, we have some cohesion, we've aligned, and truly aligned, because that's the only way that we can. With, you know, efficient delivery of guest satisfaction and service and back of the house and keeping the lights on and COVID and beds and heads and everything else, it's almost like there's an, there's a, it's orchestrated between supply side and buy side, which I haven't seen anywhere else. In my career, I've been in multiple industries over my life, I haven't seen this level of orchestration almost organically over years between the buy side and the supply side. Sean Gorman: Right. I agree with you. I agree with everything you just said. Michael Cohen: Cool. next question. Adam Mogelonsky: Well, to pick out one particular barrier to entry that I think everyone finds a little bit challenging is the long sales cycle that we encounter when trying to sell the hotels. And there's a lot to pick out within that, but how have you navigated the problem of this long sales cycle, both to keep your teams motivated through that process, as well as the big, uh, bigger challenge, which is maintaining cashflow during that sales process? Sean Gorman: It's not easy, I'll tell you that. Especially when COVID came around. Because what happened was the supply chain was broken. some people were, were losing money. Some hotels were going out of business and we had sort of set to do that. And it was like you said, it's a long haul. And you know, the other thing that I think people forget on that, which is important is for a sales guy. That's looking for a commission. He has to now sort of wait a little longer than he would maybe in another industry where he can get that quick sale and then collect his commission. So that's very difficult. Um, and, you know, for me, I think it's, it's sort of really working with those sales guys. I think because Because we have so much business, I don't think some of the sort of the technical people in the background see it as much because they're just constantly doing another one, constantly doing another one. They're not worried necessarily about when it closes. I mean, for the most part, you know, they are, but in their own little silo there, they're staying busy, you know, they're pumping out the projects, they're doing it, but for the sales guy, he's like, when's this going to close? When's this going to get done? And sometimes you do close it, But it still takes a long time. So you close it and there's, Oh, we, we didn't get this. And, and, you know, this isn't done if it's a new build and it gets pushed out and gets pushed out. So they have to go and immediately get another one. So my respect goes out to all the sales guys in this industry, because. They're taking a while to get their commissions oftentimes and that's difficult. But, um, you know, as far as, yeah, again, you just got to pick the right guys that, that understand that coming in. And I think we have to do a real good job when we hire people to explain that the sales process in this particular industry just takes a while. Adam Mogelonsky: Sean, we'll move into our fourth and final key question here. What are the key things innovative leaders and entrepreneurs should prioritize and focus on to gain traction for their businesses? Sean Gorman: Trust your gut. So whether it be hiring, making decisions on moving your business forward, whatever it be, trust your gut. I've always done that, uh, and, and people tell you that work with me, my gut's kind of crazy the way I, I know when certain things are going to happen or what's going down. Now, certainly I've made mistakes, but for the most part, I'd always say, trust my gut. I learned that as a very young boy with my mom and dad, um, and I've always done it. Um, you know, when you're a kid growing up. It's obviously not decisions like this. It's more of, I just walked into a party and I don't have the right feeling at this party. I don't think I should be here. I get out fast. So I learned to do that at a young age and it's, it's done well for me my whole life. So I brought it right into my business and it works. You know, I think you have to be creative. It's sort of what got me here was being creative. Um, when I started this, uh, you know, with the day to day challenges I had when I was a small two man operation, um, we had to be super creative because at the time I think some of the guys we were going against, like Case Internet, AT& T, they were these huge companies and we were seriously two guys in a rowboat. Yeah, Michael. Yeah. So, and that's what I was going against. So you want to talk about trying to be creative. I had to be creative about everything I did. my marketing and I was doing it all. And I mean, I was pulling the cables back then. I was installing the access points. I did it. Everything souped to nuts. I can remember one time I had a guy come to me. It was, I was, I was installing in his hotel and he wanted to talk to the CEO. I'm sitting there thinking, well, okay. Um, I said, well, let me, let me see if I could put a call into him. and see if I can have them get back to you. So I had to run into the parking lot because I like to get back to people right away. And I get on the phone and say, I understand you want to talk to me. My installers are in the hotel now. But that's how I built the business. I had to be creative. And I think that sometimes when you get bigger, you forget that, you know, you forget who you were. I don't want to forget who I was. And I want to be that same creative guy that I always was. And I think if I do that, it'll continue to set me apart and help me to build the business. Adam Mogelonsky: to go back to the first thing you said there about your gut, and this is me getting technical, but to draw on sort of a seminal psychology book, uh, Thinking Fast and Slow by, uh, Kahneman and Tversky about how your gut is actually just your experiences that have been hard coded into your unconscious system, which then says that you need to have the experiences to build your gut. And when you're dealing with younger teams, how do you let them fast track that process so that way everything isn't a continual trial by error or trial by fire? how do you bestow your gut? How do you mentor people to give them that own gut check that you have? Sean Gorman: I think that you have to make sure that you're, um, sort of next in command under me that are bringing those people in. Have a real understanding of what my gut is and how it works. And I know that my, my people know me really, really well. And they know me on a personal level. Um, they've gone through ups and downs with me, so they really have an understanding of me. So they have lived through a lot with me. they have to trans sort of get that information over to the next group. So. I know I mentioned trial and error before, I know you mentioned it here, I think that it's up to them to try to instill sort of what we've been through. So, I think the example is a lot of times is they will say to them, if you have a question and you're trying to figure out what to do and you're not so sure, pick up the phone and call your CEO. And people will be like, what do you mean? I said, he'll, he'll, he'll call you right back. So, I make sure that not only my clients can get a hold of me. And, and this sounds kind of silly because you would think, oh, well, the people in your office would be easier. No, the clients will get ahold of me, but sometimes the people in my office won't get ahold of me. So the way they can learn about me best is for them to talk to me more often. And I put that out there a lot. And sometimes they won't. And every once in a while, I'll call people randomly throughout the company that don't know me from a hole in the wall. And I'll say, let's talk about something. And sometimes it has nothing to do with business. And I usually get off the phone laughing with the people. And usually they don't know me. And I'm one of these guys that, whether right or wrong, and I don't think it's arrogance. I just think it's the way I'm built. But when somebody doesn't like me, or they've got an issue with me, I have a problem with it. People are like, ah, you can't let that stuff bother you. It does bother me. Because I think to myself, well, you don't know me. You don't understand who I am. You've never really talked to me, because you don't know what I think. I had an, uh, a conversation one time. With somebody that was explaining to me, they were sick of working for the man, they said, and these guys that are making money, they should be taxed a lot more. And, and, and believe me, I'm not a political guy, but I'm just explaining this story to you. And I looked at him and I said, let me ask you something, working for this guy that you talk about, how many vacations have you had, let's say in the last 10 years, do you take a couple every year? He says, yeah. I said, cause I know you get to just get back from, he's a friend of mine. He got back from Jamaica. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Take two a year. I said, so over the last 10 years. Let me tell you how many vacations I've taken. He goes, okay. I said zero. You know how many my employees have taken? Whatever they're allotted. But I don't take them. I said, when I set this business up, I went in and put a match to the 401k cause I used to be in that business. So I thought it was very important for my people to have a 401k. And some people don't know it. And I had some young guys that have come to me since and thanked me for doing that, because. They knew enough to do it. I sat down, I said, listen, put your money away, put some money away, and I'll match whatever I can. So I did, I would match what they allowed me to do. Then I went in and paid a huge percentage of all of my employees, um, health care. So that's what I try to do. So again, to my friend, I said, you know, when you, when you're talking about the man, you should go out and start your own business. And if you really want to change something, go do that. Start your own business and be the guy that you're against. He says, well, you're different, Gorman, because that's what all my buddies call me, Gorman. You're different. I said, well, that's the way it should be. But if you want to make a change, go do it yourself and stop complaining about everybody else and that you're sick of the company you're working for and they're not doing this and not doing that, then go start your own company and be the guy that does that. And that's what I've really tried to do. Um, and listen, you know, I try to be the best guy I can. And I mean, there are times where I'm probably not the best guy in the world. I try to be, I really do. Every day I get up and try to be, and, if you want the truth, we get a little personal. I lost my dad when I was 19 years old and I've lived my entire life. To have him, um, be proud of me. So that's a guy that got up every day of his life and went to church and I watched what he did. He never preached. He was, and I went to Princeton, but he was the most, he was the most intelligent person I've ever met in my life. He was not a sports guy. He was a, he was an academic and, um, the brightest guy I ever saw, the classiest guy I ever saw. He talked to everybody the same way. So, you know, if he were talking to the guy, you know, on the street, bums, uh, he'd talk to them the same way he would talk to a guy out of Harvard. And when he passed away, uh, probably till this day, the most amazing thing I ever saw was three days of people lined up to see him. And a lot of them were homeless, homeless people that came up. I had no idea who they were and people would say, your dad did so much for me. And that to me is success. Um, you can make all the money in the world, but if you don't have that, you've got nothing, as far as I'm concerned. to be honest with you guys, that's really what has, uh, makes me go out there and do what I can every day to do the right thing. So, Michael Cohen: So, Gorman, um, there's, there's a reason why we get along, and now we're going to be mutually personal on the Gay Momentum podcast for a moment. So, my dad passed away when he was 17, when I was 17 years old, and I had a very similar experience with the outpour of, you know, The community in Montreal. I'm your boss and I'm Montreal, you know, we know, but anyway, um, but I can see it and, and I, and I identify literally, and also I can just feel the energy of what you're talking about is that, you know, everyone has challenges. Everyone has, life, uh, situations. It really, a lot of it is, uh, and when we're talking about business and technology and, and our business is a people based business, there's multiple paths to success, I guess is what I'm getting at, and, beyond the fact that we align there, it also is clear, and it's good for people listening, hopefully, is that If you can take serious challenges of life and if it provides you with the gasoline and the motivation and hopefully some guidance, to drive yourself ahead and to drive yourself to success. And I think that that's a big part of what you've done at Safety Net Access. Uh, you know, again, I've enjoyed being your friend over the years, we've done business, we'll do business in the future, all those things. But people who achieve. Especially when it's self, uh, you know, self driven. Many times it's because there's challenges and, and pain that they can convert and create positively into something that is momentum and focus. Sean Gorman: I, I can't agree more. I And, and to mention a book, you talked psychology earlier guys there, so I, psych guy, I wrote my thesis in college on mental techniques toward peak performance. I'm fascinated by it. And if you ever read some of the books by Malcolm Gladwell, he talks about that. He talks about these defining moments in your life that you can either go one way or the other. And I think it's things like that, that, I mean, that, that particular point in my life, I mean, I've got, everybody goes through trials and tribulations, Michael, but to hear that you went through the same thing I went through, uh, Michael Cohen: Like literally, literally, it's wild. But in any case, I mean, uh, this is, um, for general consumption. So we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll have a drink and have a beer at the hospitality show. I don't think so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mr. Adam Mogelonsky: you know, that's such a sentimental and profound, deep message to end on. So any final thoughts? Sean Gorman: No, I, I, you know, listen, I appreciate you guys giving me the time. I appreciate the questions. I didn't think they were softball questions, Michael. So thank you. Those were good. Those were challenging questions. You guys really had me thinking there a little bit, so I really appreciate it. This was great. Adam Mogelonsky: Yeah, they were slap shot questions, you know, we got to keep it to hockey here. Sean Gorman: Yeah. Adam Mogelonsky: thank you. Sean Gorman: Thank you.