Latest / Books4Guys / Learn from Elon Musk & Naval Ravikant | Eric Jorgenson

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Learn from Elon Musk & Naval Ravikant | Eric Jorgenson · Books4Guys

• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Dude Books.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: Dude Perfect Books, yeah.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Dude Perfect Books.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: If they're out there and they listen to this, I'd be more than happy to work with you guys.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: But uh man, Eric, excited to actually record this conversation, like I was saying, as me and you connected a little while back, thanks to uh a buddy Trey who was on the podcast a couple of months ago now.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: And uh man, we had such a good conversation just talking about books and just how important it is for guys to read.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: And man, I mean, you've written two very, very successful books that a lot of guys, a lot of people in general, find interesting.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: But for those listening and watching, if they haven't read The Book of Elon or The Almanac of Naval Ravi Kant, both ultra successful books, man.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: I I guess my question to you, Eric, because I was look I was doing some research leading into this too, because just trying to learn more about your background that I didn't know before.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: But just two quick questions.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, these two books, wildly successful.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, did you have any idea when writing these just how I don't know, just how fast they would take off and the amount of readers that you would have impacted with them?
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: No clue.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm still I'm still kind of shocked by it, actually.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I thought, I mean, this was a side project, you know, and I spent a couple of years doing it.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: The first book, The Almanac and Naval, and I I thought, you know, I thought it would have an audience among Naval fans, uh, which at that point there were I mean, he had probably 700,000 followers on Twitter.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: So he was well known in in the tech world, like in San Francisco.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: If you were in a startup, suit you might have read his blog, but not really well followed or well known outside as before he went on Joe Rogan or anything like that.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I was I would have been really, really pleased to sell 10,000 copies.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and for context, you know, yeah, I put years of effort and tens of thousands of dollars into publishing it.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: So that would have been like a breakeven outcome.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I the fact that it's, you know, we're coming up on two million copies sold in 40 languages and we've given away millions more, and you know, that people are like of all kind of walks of life and cultures and ages are like attracted to these ideas and have loved this book is really amazing to me.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: Dude, two million copies.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's wild.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's really wild.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: For for people that are not like have no frame of reference for that, that's like very, very, very few books ever sell a million copies.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: And and the number that you have to sell to like be a New York Times bestseller is like about 10,000 in a week.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so a lot of times, you know, people will have a big spike and then never, you know, the median outcome for a book is like a couple hundred books.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: So 10,000 is a great outcome, and a million is you know, two orders of magnitude.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: So like standard deviations past that, uh, it's really a very rare thing.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: How has that because I want to I I want to dive in a little bit and just ask, like, you know, where how did you get interested in Naval or or you know, obviously Elon, a lot of people are interested in him and process and all this, but I want to ask you, you know, specifically just what led you to putting in the time and effort to putting the work together.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: But before I get into that, you know, because I just I don't want to undersell like just how incredible the feat is of selling that many books.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't happen just because people go, oh, we know Eric, great author, let's just buy his book, and they and it could suck and it's still sell.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, no, it continued to grow, grow, and grow because it's a good book and a good store, and people crave the information.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: How is it personally, because and and you've also led Scribe, you know, as as the leader of that that company too, but how has it personally impacted your life and just the direction of it, just from being able to say, like, you know, do with just the amount of books sold that that you've put out there?
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I the biggest thing is that it's a kind of a marker of uh it it it creates it's a reputation creator.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like it it tends to frame a conversation or an introduction to just have like one thing that you did well at least one time.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so people can say, like you can get introductions, and when you meet people, you can say, like, I did this thing.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of there are lots of different ones, right?
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: Some people, you know, it's a credential like a PhD or a Olympic gold medal or exit a company or you know, sold some big deal or some number of doors in real estate or whatever.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: There's there's like many, many, many ways to appear credible.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, one of them turns out to be writing a good book.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: And in it it really is about the a good book.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's not necessarily about selling a ton of copies.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: Not every book that's the goal, or nor should it be.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think even if this book only had sold, you know, 10 or 20 or 50,000 copies, it would still have had that sort of reputation creating effect in my in the tech world for me at the very least, even if it never kind of broke out into a mainstream.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, to your point, like I I think you can't nobody can engineer a million copies sold.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like it it is, I think it is almost by definition a surprise and a movement more than anything else.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's no tactic that can get you there.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's just people reading and recommending and reading and recommending and buying it as gifts and continuing to talk about it and reference it.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it's it's just been really amazing to see kind of year over year the organic growth that is just continued.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's cool, man.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good feeling as someone, you know, you put in all this work and to see it be successful, I'm sure there's just like there's just not a bit.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you could you couldn't have fathomed the success it's had, but I'm sure like just looking at it and just the work you did, I'm sure it's just something that you'll be c you'll be proud of for as long as you live, man.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's so cool.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I mean the thing that the thing that goes on the cover is the number, and the thing that people talk about is the number, but the the actually satisfying part, and this is true, I think, for all authors at every at every level of sales, is is the more uh personal stories that you hear.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: Is like, hey, I I I gifted this to my brother, I gifted this to my dad, I like, you know, I read this when I was in med school and fucking hated it and decided to quit and you know go this other direction with my life or whatever it is.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, th those personal anecdotes or like sweet moments cover, you know, end up sticking with you a lot longer than any like, you know, any kind of particular milestone, I think.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well, peel peel the layers back a little bit.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like go go from the start.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what led you to like where'd the interest come from?
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: What what what did it take to put it all together and just what just what led to ultimately the the published outcome?
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: So this is a good, like, I I really love that Steve Jobs commencement speech where he speaks about things only making sense in the rearview mirror.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: Just follow your curiosity and allow things to connect.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, you can't really master plan, nor would you want to master plan your life because 40-year-old you does not want to be beholden to the goals of 20-year-old you, right?
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like I don't know what your 20 and 40-year-old selves are gonna be like, but I think mine are gonna be pretty different uh and have different visions for the future.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: So what you actually want to do is kind of just follow your curiosity and allow the the pattern to kind of emerge.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what happened here.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like I was really interested in I was interested in business, and then I was interested uh because I grew up in an entrepreneurial small business family.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: And then I got interested in tech and startups because it was kind of I went to college in like the the era of Facebook blowing up, and it was it was just really empowering and cool to see young, really young founders building unbelievable things, and that that tech culture kind of attracted uh attracted young, ambitious talent.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so I uh I started doing more startup things in college.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: I hosted hackathons and started, you know, normal college kid companies.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I met somebody who was, you know, this very successful entrepreneur and just asked him for advice and reading material as I do.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, read everything on Paul Graham's blog and read everything on the Angel List blog, which was Nivian Naval's blog, and you'll kind of understand the culture and the ethos of Silicon Valley.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, all right, deal.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I printed them and put them in binders and read all of both of those.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: And that was the start of me following Naval.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I followed him for maybe 10 years as he sort of built Angel List and invested in all these companies and his transition into this kind of study of philosophy.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: He he became extremely successful materially and sort of had the epiphany that many people do, which is like, oh, this didn't solve all my problems.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm not happy just because I'm I'm wealthy now and just because or just because I'm famous.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: So what do I have to do?
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: How do I deliberately attack becoming happier?
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: And sort of set off on this project and like applied himself to it and shared what he learned along the way, studying all these different philosophers and uh practices for happiness, and you know, became this and at the time it was quite a radical departure from a like personal brand point of view.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I followed the whole thing and I enjoyed that, and I just kept feeling like everything that he was sharing was this really timeless, important wisdom that sort of clicked with me, and he said it in a way that stuck and and I re I just loved it and uh followed him for a long time.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: And at the same time, I was reading Buffett and Munger books, which are all almost always compilations, because all they really do is write letters and do the annual meetings.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: And it just sort of like those those two paths just merged at some point.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, man, I really wish Naval would write a book.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: He probably won't, you know, and uh, but this format exists that Buffett and Munger, you know, fans do.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I can do that, uh, or maybe somebody should do that.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then I realized I, you know, was perfectly uh capable of at least giving it a shot and uh gave it a start.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, I thought it would take three months, and it took three years, like so many people who set off to write books.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: But it I had fun doing it, honestly.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like it was it was nights and weekends, and I would look forward to working on it.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it just felt like doing this great big jigsaw puzzle in which I was spending time with this person who I really learned a lot from and admired, and got to just kind of keep tweaking and building until I felt like it was ready for the world to see it, and then was just blown away by the response.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: Man, that's freaking cool, man.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: Because just as some I mean, it is like as I'm just thinking, like, you know, my group of friends or people I talk to, like we're all kind of similar.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're all trying to build something, we're all trying to learn something.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: We always we all want to know like what it's like to hit hit what we consider the pinnacle, you know, of success, and and and when you make it.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: But then we're also like interested in studying people that are there and then to hear what they have to say about it and and how their views change.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so it kind of again, we were talking about this, I think, our first conversation, just like reading books and learning and and critical thinking and just changing the way you think.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like there all this just has such a good impact, and it's good for people.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, studying someone like Naval is uh it's just unique, man.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's so many people that are interested in it.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: So the more you know I hear you talk and the more I hear me think about my interest, I'm like, well, no brainer, this sold two million copies, it probably it should probably sell many millions more because there's a lot of people out there that are interested in this.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's just cool, man, that you you were passionate.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: You had all this information.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like you decided, hey, no, if no one else is gonna write a book, I'll just do it myself.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it it in retrospect, it it sort of had the recipe for success, which is like it appealed to universal human desires, which are wealth and happiness.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: And and I really did obsess over perfection, right?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like, especially nowadays with with AI, but even before that, you saw a lot of like low effort people, like low effort books on Amazon where people are like throwing up a book every month and it's kind of like a quote book, and they never really promote it intentionally, and there's no story around it, and it's it's not really engineered to be helpful, and there's it's not a high effort curation, and it's not threaded together super effectively from idea to idea.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I I share that story in such great detail just because like I I think it's I think so many people will have their own version of it.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like you you you are what you are consuming, but it only makes sense, you know, 10 years down the line.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like the seeds you plant sort of grow and and you know mix with each other slowly over time.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: And you don't really know what you're what kind of soup you're making, but you know, one day it sort of clicks and it all makes sense looking back.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's so cool.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: As someone who's like trying to be in that journey, I love hearing things like that.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because I I, you know, I was even sitting down, I was talking about your book this morning, actually.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: I was sitting down with the former CIO of Okta, and I'd brought I told him that you and I were were meeting today, and he was like, Oh yeah, I know that book, you know, and I'm familiar with who Eric is.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Yeah, that I figured you would be Silicon Valley guy, you know.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so it was really cool.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: But there's so many like-minded people, like you say, that are kind of seeking out the same thing.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so in hindsight, yeah, you're like, oh yeah, this was set up to be a successful book because this is what people are, you know, consistently trying to strive towards.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: But uh nonetheless, it still doesn't make it any less amazing on what it's done.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really cool.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: And it's one of those things, you know, everybody, you see it, you hear it so often, and it's like become one of these platitudes of like you when you find something you really love to do, you apply yourself at a different level and you and you have a different standard of success.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: And this is that for me.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like I worked so hard, so, so, so hard on companies that ended up completely failing and going to zero, and just grinded and you know, exerted myself willpower and long hours and weekends and all nighters.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's so funny that the thing that has been the biggest changer of my life just felt so natural.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I did work hard on it, but I was excited to work hard on it basically every day that I got to work on it.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really hard to hear someone say, Oh, just follow the things you're passionate about.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: It'll turn out to be the better, the best thing you can do.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, even when I have like had that experience, I've still messed it up in the intervening years, but I can I at least have that personal, tangible experience to go back to and be like, yeah, no, I I really do need to lean into the things I just love to do because I'll do them at a completely different level of of craft and and effort, and the world will see that in the product, and it'll it'll be a difference maker because you know, so many of us are playing these power law games where the very best thing gets 99 or 99.999% of the rewards.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this this perfectly transitions to to your other book, the book of Elon, because you talk about, you know, kind of studying his expertise on finding purpose and doing these incredible things.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: But talk talk a little bit about the next project, how you know, looking at Elon Musk and and what he's accomplished, what describe your path that went into that book.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, as as soon as I saw the response to the the Naval book, I was like, oh, I gotta like people just started proposing other people for me to do immediately.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: They're like, oh, do do Bology, do Paul Graham, do Mark Andreessen, do Peter Thiel, do, you know, uh Jensen Wong, do and Elon was obviously on that list.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: And he was he he's been high on my list for a long time.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, in in the in well before he was a household name or involved in politics at all, he was a hero in the tech world.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, just because he was part of the PayPal mafia and and had early exits.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: And even before it was clear that Tesla and SpaceX were going to be successful, he was a hero in the tech world because he just swung hard, you know, uh just put his nuts on the table over and over again with hundreds of millions of dollars on the line and his personal reputation.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that's just, you know, how can you not respect somebody who who swings that hard at such important and noble goals?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: So he was he was very much on the short list.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: I ended up writing the book of uh the the anthology of biology first in that published that in 2023, and the whole time uh was sort of doing Elon was a massive undertaking, and so it did take a lot, he's I was just so prolific, so and had such a long career.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: So decades and decades of material got sort of compiled and and uh organized and curated and and worked through for that.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: So it just took, I mean, it probably took five years to get through that book and all the material and and stitch it all together and then you know boil it down, distill it enough until it was like really concentrated.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because my goal for these is to have a highlight on every single page.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like I want this to be the single best use of your minutes of reading humanly possible.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: And there's actually a way to measure this, which is how densely highlighted is the book.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: And the Almanacin of all is in the top 100 most densely highlighted books in all of Kindle.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's you know, to me, that book meet met that mark.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, that that's really that means there's richness to it, there's value on every page, and I love getting that kind of feedback.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh my god, I read it in a day, I I flagged every page, my highlighter went dry, like that kind of stuff tells me that I I did a good job sort of uh respecting the reader's time and just saturating it with useful ideas.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I was interested in it because I read and I had to look it up because I couldn't remember who wrote it, but the uh Ashley Vance book that came out, I guess it was probably around 2017-ish, I think is when it came out.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: As I when your book came out, I was like, man, I read this book, but there's so much that's happened with Elon in the last 10 years since that book came out.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: But I learned a lot about him through through that because I he's been around a lot longer than what people have known him on this stage anyway.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously Tesla and all his origin story and then SpaceX and like just dude being on the island, blowing things up, getting down to like the last dollar, you know, just basically backed into a corner and being like, it's all or nothing, man.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: We're going all out for this, and then like you said, swinging through the fences.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like, not many people take the approach that he does, and it's I don't know, man, it's just something that's for lack of a better term, just remarkable.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: I look I looked it up.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: Ashley Vance's book was 2015, actually.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: 2015, yeah.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: So it it really, I mean, Ashley, it's a great book, and Ashley was very early too.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: I love that book.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: I love Ashley.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: It it it and it's remarkable uh snapshot because I think it's I think at that point it's still pretty up in the air.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, they've had some success, but it is certainly not at the level that they had been.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because I read it in 2024, and I was like, oh my gosh, like, you know, so I read up to the city.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: Look how far we've come in ten years.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, all right, so when's the next, you know, book that's gonna be about Elon?
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Elon said something very interesting that really stuck with me.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh somebody asked him to predict something like five years out.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think this was on the Cheeky Pint podcast, and it just asked him, like, you know, where will we be in five years?
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: And Elon's like, I five years feels like infinity time to me.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought that was just so like most people talk about how fast time goes and how you know little changes and and you know, they're doing five-year plans.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: And he's just like, I think that's just a byproduct of how fast they're moving and how much changes, how quickly the environment changes.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that that really changed.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, man, five years is a long, it's a long time if you are moving quickly.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: So how quickly can you move and how much credit can you give yourself for how like if you believe it's a lot of time, all of a sudden your scope of what you might accomplish in that time changes.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: Have you uh Naval, Elon, anyone within their team, has anyone like reached out to you?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like have you had conversations with with them about the book and any major?
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I I actually interviewed Bology for the book.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: So once I'd been through all the public stuff, I spent about eight hours with Bology kind of refining and digging deeper into those ideas.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: Naval, I have since spent some time with.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't have anything, uh it was all public information when I published the book, but since spent some time with him and re-recorded, we spent a day together and recorded quite a few hours, and that's actually been updated in uh the audiobook.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: So the new there's a new version of the Naval book uh on Audible that has our conversations in there.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that was that was a a really remarkable day and a fantastic conversation.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's a lot of value in there.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it was awesome just to kind of satiate some of my personal curiosity.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, you just you you never know for sure.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: You see a lot of people who are like good on Twitter and then in person they're like not quite the same and evolve is is is very intense and very sharp and very quick and uh but also very peaceful in real life.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's uh that sort of energy is is really singular and interesting.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: Elon, the book is still very new, and and I was I'm very deliberate to not ask for his time.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like I d I don't want the responsibility of taking him away from whatever's the most important thing on the planet for him to be doing at the moment.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, but I do know that you know the book is being recommended by by the people teams at both Tesla and SpaceX to new hires.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: I know Elon retweeted probably five or ten different clips from interviews I did about the book with with David Senra and Ty Morse when the book launched and we were doing a bunch of podcasts.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm sure he's aware of it.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: I I I know he's aware of it because he approved the the project, but it's not like he read the final manuscript or anything, to my knowledge.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: But I I hope it's a worthy of his it's a book worthy of his standards and his ideas.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that's really, you know, I'm not known for being a perfectionist in life or uh in much, but uh I really I really, really work hard on these books to make sure that they are uh an appropriate and exciting representation to the to the person whose ideas they are.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like I want them to be proud to be associated with it and believe I did a good job on it and that it represents them well.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: No, and it's cool.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's really cool that you're writing it as like an outside perspective.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's not somebody that's like close to them and they're checking everything to make sure that what's coming out is, you know, uh exactly how they want it to be, which I think adds more credibility to your work and your books.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're putting together that what you're seeing and finding and putting that in your own words.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I know some people they they're like, hey, uh, I like a biography.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: I don't really like an autobiography, you know.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because I want just a different perspective than just what that one person's going to say, you know, yes or no to.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: But I and I'm sure I mean your book has done both of those individuals a lot of justice and probably led to a lot more people just knowing more about them and being interested.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so I can't reason why they wouldn't approve or like.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: They're both great books, but it is interesting, just that dynamic.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's a very uh I had a really very smart friend read an early manuscript of my first book.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: And what he his his only feedback was really like, uh, you've invented a genre.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like I it's like I don't I don't know what to call it's not a biography, it's not an autobiography, it's not a it's like a a compilation, but it doesn't read like a compilation.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's a it is like it is something new that is born out of like the the digital the the amount of digital information there are, and it's it's got a different goal.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like a biography's goal is is usually written by a journalist, and its goal is usually to like put a person in historical context and to provide a balanced look of them and have this like chronological structure.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: An autobiography, the goal is who knows what.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: The goal is what whoever it's secret in the mind of whoever wrote it.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: And and my my goal is just to collect the person's most useful ideas for the reader.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like I want to make best use of the reader's time, and I want to create this uh sort of proxy of mentorship.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: I want to make that person's wisdom available to the reader and put it captured in this permanent format.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: And there's definitely judgment calls that I'm making along the way, but in every uh chance I get, I keep them in their own words.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: Some editing to like smooth things out and remove ums and uhs and change sentence structure between, you know, something that makes sense verbally but doesn't make sense in writing.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: But it's really all from the goal of like helping the reader learn from the person.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's not about digging up secrets, it's not about putting them in context, it's not about providing balance, but neither is it propaganda.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm not saying that they're right or wrong.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: I've just put putting out this sort of buffet of the lessons they've learned, and you get to choose what's right for you to implement based on your own wisdom and your own judgment.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: No, I like that uh that analogy from your friend because yeah, as you were just saying that, I was like, yeah, there's kind of a weird like Joe Rogan twist to this.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like Joe Rogan kind of owns the genre of talking with interesting people and having them, you know, share what they want.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: And your books, it's kind of like that in book format.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm getting to know Elon and Nabal through long form reading.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: It it is different.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like your normal book and that that's about somebody.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: So it is that's who I was talking, or I was thinking of as you said.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, yeah, you're kind of like a Joe Rogan of authors, of people.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's a weird, it's almost like a written mosaic or something like that.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very, it's a very weird, it's a very weird thing, but I just I love doing it.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I and I don't I don't actually think I it's a compliment from him, but I actually don't think I did invent it.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think, you know, people like Peter Bevlin did this, you know, effectively for Munger and Buffett.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: And there's probably a few others, but I I uh you know, for whatever reason, my own version of it has become, you know, uh relatively popular.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, we're gonna keep at it, see what happens.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, it's it's kind of interesting.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's so many of us who are interested in these individuals.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: We love reading about people.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's one of the most popular forms of being of interest in books, but there's not really, like you said, that style of to portray it the way that you do.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: So it's interesting that not anyone else has really been s that successful at it or, you know, as successful.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the people thing is interesting because I think it's most nonfiction books pick an idea and then hammer home the idea with a ton of different stories, but there's no there's no characters, there's no consistency, there's no there's a human.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: And what we are is actually, you know, we're monkeys and we learn through mimesis.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so of course, of course, the best way to absorb an idea is to attach it to a person and a person who you have a mental model with and a relationship with to some extent, and you understand how that person thinks and why they think what they think, and then you can layer these stories that that person has experienced.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just easier for you to remember and it's easier to enact.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's another one of those things that sort of like would have been difficult to conjecture, but is is obvious in retrospect.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: And you're like, oh yeah, no, this is that's why this is stickier, because you feel like a person is teaching you and you can understand their story and you can choose for yourself.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: You're like, oh, that decision, that framework led them to this outcome.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that and I want that outcome for myself, or I don't want that outcome for myself, right?
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:35
  unknown: Yeah.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I was thinking some of the other books that I would only be able to compare to, like Walter Isaac, Steve Jobs.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I was thinking of like I read a book about Paul Bear Bryant, the junction boys, and like the way he talks about him as a coach and just the stories and it gets into the mind of how he was the way he was.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like those are some of my favorite books, and I remember them more than anything else because of what you just said.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, I I love that.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: Are you you said you love doing this?
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: So you you know, you've kind of taken, I don't know, if you would have told yourself 20 years ago this is kind of the path you'd be on, it does it look anything like you thought, or is this totally different?
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: And do you feel pressure at all now that you've had, you know, two wildly successful books, to continue trying to meet that standard with other people that you may write about?
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: Pressure?
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: No, not at all.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like I don't, I don't, I don't care.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm gonna do my thing and I'm gonna put it out in the world, and some books are gonna be huge hits and some aren't, and uh and that's fine.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: As long as I as long as I meet my standards for quality, I'm perfectly satisfied.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I I care about getting better, and I do think my my craft, I'm getting better at each book.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think the anthology of Bology was a better structured, cleaner, like more tightly edited book than the Almanac and Naval, even though the Almanac and Naval's outsold it, you know, dramatically.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the Book of Elon is is better than the Anthology of Bology.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: So like I'm I think I'm getting better at my craft each book, but uh there's they're gonna be wildly different in terms of outcome for a whole variety of reasons.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think authors and but people in general can really paint themselves into corners with like telling stories about that kind of stuff, and I just don't care.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm not gonna outsmart myself in that by by like by like allowing my ego to get out of control there.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh as far as the root, like I've always been a reader and you know of of a lot of things, fiction, nonfiction, I've always been interested in uh in ideas and like a a collector of them.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think I was really attracted to Munker because he's a collector of mental models.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um and when I find somebody who sort of feels refreshing to read because they're teaching me new ways to see the world, those are my favorite kind of books.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like those the ones that feel like they give you kind of a new lens on life.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so it probably it probably wouldn't be surprising, you know, if you told my parents or uh at when I was 15, like what I'd be doing, or at 20, they'd kind of be like, Yeah, I could see how the I can see how the seeds of that are planted now.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we were a very nerdy, kind of like bookish family that just would like sit around and read together and uh, you know, picking up poor Charlie's almanac off my dad's bookshelf when I was 19 or something definitely like changed my trajectory in life and formed my reading and formed friendships and uh a lot of my interests through my 20s, which is it's not a lot of 20s, people in their 20s who's the biggest fan of the like this 90-year-old curmudgeonly investor guy.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: But uh when you find him, you may you make fast friends.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's interesting.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: I I was the same man.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, like my 20s were that's kind of when I discovered the importance of reading, and like my I saw my thoughts change and I thought the my opinions change, and I saw my like I don't know, the whole the my whole approach to just certain situations and and certain things that people would say and just like my patience level.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: Man, it's like I don't I don't know how to explain it to someone other than just like how cool it feels when you start, and I hate to say like becoming educated.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's just you just you just start learning more more things that you can apply.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it just it's just such a cool feeling.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: And we talked a little bit about this before this podcast on just the importance of reading, and especially like nowadays, there's just kind of a lack of it.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm trying to, that's kind of the whole purpose of Books for Guys, is just encouraging, like, dude, if you're interested in Elon Musk, like read Eric's book, you know, like uh you're gonna learn something and be able to apply something.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just I don't know.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: Come listen to my podcast about how you should spend more time reading.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: Listen to my podcast and and watch it first and then go pick up a book.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: No, but but if this can influence somebody to to read more, you know, that's the purpose of it.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's better than me just telling them to do it.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe uh a podcast is like it's it's like the book trailer for the movie, I think.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like you when you get a feel for the author and you understand what you're in for and what you might get out of it.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's how a ton of readers discover discover books.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: And and it is a big commitment to to read a whole book.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of people start a book f feeling the burden of that commitment already.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, one of the things Naval says that I've I've appreciated is like you you don't you're not obligated to finish a book.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you don't, you're not obligated to read it start to finish.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: You're not obligated to start on page one.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, I took a course uh reading the reading the great books of of Western civilization, um, and and it like got derailed and I didn't finish the project, unfortunately.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: But you start by reading how to read a book by Mortimer Adler.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the tools it gives you is this like inspectional read.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: So it says like, just pick up a book and like set a timer for 20 minutes and be like, I'm gonna spend 20 minutes with this book.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: What's the best use of these 20 minutes?
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's not starting on page one, it's reading the front and the back and the table of contents, and then flip to the back page, uh, read the conclusion, like the the, you know, what's the what are the last few sentences or a few paragraphs of the book that matter?
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, read the author's bio, think about the biases, think about the thesis of the book, you know, flip through looking for for highlights.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a really effective way to to like file a book away in your head and to change your, you know, there's books that I've I've bought that I spend 20 minutes or 30 minutes with, and I'm kind of like, okay, like I get the thesis.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: I don't actually have to read the whole book to like to figure this out.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: And there's other books where I'm like, okay, I I love this thesis.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: I don't understand it at all yet.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: I I really do need to spend time with this material to like grok it.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it seems very, very important for me to grok.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: And this author is highly credible, and you know, it's recommended by these these amazing people as like a life-changing book.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: But some of you know, anti-fragile and and beginning of infinity, like those books take work to like fully install in your head.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then others you kind of pick up and flip through, and you're kind of like, okay, this is this is like I get it.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: But they're all good, it all leads you to think, it all leads to your ideas, like there's a wrong way to way to engage with it.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um Eric, one more question for you, man.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: I love this.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: I love dude.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just I'm so happy we got introduced.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: I love like just the work you put into your books.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: I love the books you put out there.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: There's gonna be so many more.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: I I love hearing that you love what doing what you do because that means there will be additional in time that we'll be able to pick up on and and spotlight.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: But uh my final question for you, I ask everybody this that comes on the podcast.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's a hard question, uh, depending on you know where you're at in life, what you've been reading, but it's just a books for guys specific question.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm curious to know what is a book or two that has meant a lot to you personally or professionally, and what's a book that you love to recommend to other people?
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: If you think I'm gonna stop it too, you're crazy.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: You can go as many as you can.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: I I I think uh I'm gonna set aside my own, though I stand by them firmly and I think they're amazing books to read.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: In particular, if you have somebody who's young in your life, like gift them to please, please gift them to anybody who's like between the ages of 13 and 22.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: They're very accessible and I think they're life-changing if they if they reach people who are still have so many of these big path-dependent life decisions ahead of them.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: The book, I mean, I mentioned it already, poor Charlie's Almanac was super personally transformative for me.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: It found me kind of at 19.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: I I read basically every book that Charlie Munger recommends.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: I it sent me down this deep rabbit hole.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: I started visiting the the go into the conferences.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: I made great friends there.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: They became, it became this kind of proxy for shared virtues through which I made many of many friends in great relationships.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: So poor with Charlie's Almanac has like a very dear place in my heart, and I think it's absolutely full of of incredible, timeless earned wisdom.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's funny.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like uh I just it's enjoyable to read.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: Another that I there's a couple books that really that I think are very effective at giving you new lenses, like I talked about, that uh just install like a very install wisdom very reliably in you.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think the David Deutsch's Beginning of Infinity is is one of those.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's not an easy read start to finish, but even if you just read the first three chapters, that is life-changing.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: You can hear great interviews.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Brett Hall has a podcast that helps you digest that book.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: Another that's kind of in that vein is Anti-Fragile uh or skin in the game.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: Nassim Taleb's books are are really, really helpful for helping you navigate the world effectively.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and when you see outlier successful people, a lot of times they have enacted those ideas consciously or unconsciously.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I have some very smart friends who got very rich understanding those books in particular very deeply.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: I really love the Systems Bible.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's hilarious, and another one of these books that like shows you how the world works in surprising ways.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: It feels arcane, it feels like you've discovered some sort of incredible secret.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's laugh out loud, funny.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: It it's it's kind of mock dry.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like it pretends to be academic, but it's actually the whole thing's a joke.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: Right now, I love to recommend this.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: This is like almost mainstream, but Dungeon Crawler Carl is just so fucking fun.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you if you listen, if you made it this far and you're like, this all sounds boring, I don't want nonfiction, don't make me work.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: Reading or listening to Dungeon Crawler Carl is like watching a hilarious action movie.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's probably like it culturally similar to Fallout.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: If you've like played that video game or watched that TV show, it's like has a little bit of heart, but it's crass and perverted and hilarious and gory and funny.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: And you'll you just it's it'll absolutely pull you down the rabbit hole, but it's a great, it's a great read.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to give you too much context.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: Just dive into it.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: No, those are great, man.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: Those are great.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate the recommendations.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I I just I love asking that question because your answer could be different if I asked you in six months, could be different if I asked you a year ago.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, as people read more and and digest more, I'm just curious what I want to add to my list.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: I have a lot of people ask for recommendations, obviously.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: So when they listen to these, hopefully they'll add those to the list as well.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: I got I got one more.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: If you're into if you're into like spiritual shit and you want to be enlightened, Jed McKenna is is also hilarious and refreshing and insane.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: He's like an American Midwestern enlightened guy, and he just cuts through all the bullshit of like yoga and meditation and like you know, the whole tradition.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so i if you're if you're in any sort of like spiritual tangle or just like looking for a fresh something that's completely different from anything you've ever read, like Jen Bakeno is like funny and interesting for sure.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: Cool, man.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Eric, there's so many, dude, there's so much more we could talk about and and and go down different avenues.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, some things we've talked about, even not on this podcast.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: And hopefully one day we'll uh as you continue to put more work out there, we'll we'll have you as a repeat guest over and over just to go down even more things that are important to put out there.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so, man, I just I love spotlighting people who are and who have done amazing things and who have a passion and energy for what they do.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just it radiates off of you.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it just it's so cool just to see again your excitement and passion and love for the books you write and the people you're following, and just wanting to share that information with other people.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so, um, man, I'm honored to spotlight your work and and yourself.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: And man, just can't wait to see.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, dude, you've vo you've done a lot, but you have so much more to do.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, who knows what what this all leads to for you, even more things that are maybe unfathomable in a great way.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so, man, rooting for you, and again, thank you for taking Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's a it's an honor to uh you know access the ears that you've accumulated here.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and I I love the project, I love the ethos, and uh if I can ever be of help, let me know.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: But I appreciate you uh sharing the good word and I I hope people will pick up some books and spend some time reading.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely don't just cue up the next podcast.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: Go do a book.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's right, yeah, that's right.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: Appreciate it, Eric.