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Detroit Tigers Pass On Verlander · Tiger Territory: A Detroit Tigers Podcast

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: He and welcome into another episode of Tiger Territory, part of
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: the Foul Territory Network, a Detroit Tiger's podcast. I'm Kieren
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Steckley with me, as always, the man who knows file
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: and trial. He's not great when it comes to taxes.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: He is. Cody Sabaneggan, How you doing doing good?
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Karen arbitration aside, We got some news this week, only
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: it's not actually related to the Detroit Tigers, but Justin Erlander,
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: former Tiger, signed with the Giants one year, fifteen million.
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: That's the same deal Alex Cobb got. So that was curious,
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: just enough to get people riled up before I go
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: into my take here, and I want to hear your thoughts.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: So basically I was, I was going through it, and
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: you know, when the deals are equal, and sometimes this
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: plays into front offices and not that necessarily should and
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: ownership especially sometimes this plays into it is that like,
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: you know, what's gonna kind of get us more attention?
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: What might you know, get some merch, some tickets, the
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: PR move. Again, the financial s equal, but the PR
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: move was one hundred percent better to get Justin Verlander
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: than Alex Copp. Now that doesn't mean it was a
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: better baseball move, but I kept thinking. I was like,
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: you know, the Tigers don't have that many ws this offseason. Now,
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: w's in the off season don't necessarily translate the w's
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: in the regular season, but this was I kept thinking,
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: there's an argument to me, this was a missed opportunity
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: to get an off season W bringing back a franchise legend,
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: someone who is beloved by everybody in the city, and
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: justin Verlander, and it kind of you know, there's also
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: we talk about reuniting. There's a reunited element with with
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Burlander two and championship pedigree. There's like three or four
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: Bregmant boxes that Burlander checks. I kept thinking it was
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: like the money's equal, you get an agent pitcher. It
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: made me think. It just made me.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: Think, yeah, you know, I was never a big proponent
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: of the Tigers bringing in very Lander earlier this offseason,
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: in part because I thought he would get a little
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: bit more and I probably wouldn't have guessed Alex Cobb
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: to get fifteen million. I like, in baseball wise, I
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: think the difference is pretty negligible. I put this on Twitter,
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: but if you just compare them over the past two years.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: Both have had their various share of injuries, but they're
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: pretty similar as pitchers. Fan grabs right now projects Alex
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: Cobb to be worth one point nine f WAR, projects
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: Justin Verlander to be worth one point three f WAR.
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: Verlander coming off a season where he really struggled. He
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: had some some bouts where he was healthy, where he
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: was good, but overall he was not healthy and he
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: had an era in the five. So kind of like
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: the Walker Bueler, like, is he actually better than Alex
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: Cobb or is he just the bigger name. Now, if
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: you were to take all the peripherals side and just
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: ask me, like, would you rather have Alex Cobb or
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: Justin Verlander and throw Charlie Morton who also got one
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: for fifteen into this, eh No, I'd probably say Verlander.
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: But in reality, I think they are going to be
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: very similar pictures, if not Alex Cobb being better, some
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: of the numbers hint toward Alex Cobb could be a
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: smidge better. Of course, the big caveat can he stay healthy?
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: But I think at age forty two, that applies just
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: as much to Justin Verlander. But I think there's another
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: factor here that a lot of people aren't talking about,
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: and that's kind of the behind closed doors clubhouse factor.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: When the Tigers signed Alex cop we heard a lot
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: about what a great guy he was, how important that
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: is to the Tigers, and what kind of mentor an
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: example he could be for what's still a very young
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: pitching staff. Compare that to Verlander. I think Justin Verlander
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: obviously could bring in an immense amount of wisdom. There
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: are stories out there about how he is kind of
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: softened in his older age. He's more approachable than he
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: used to be with Go listen to our episode with
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: Austin Jackson, which was hilarious, Austin talking about kind of
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: the difficulties and humor of trying to relate to Justin
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: Verlander back in the day. But I think bringing in
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: a guy like Justin Verlander to this room, to a
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: very young team that had a very kind of magical
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: chemistry last season could be a little risky. Like it
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: still alters the room. There's an aura of celebrity with
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: Justin Verlander, regardless of how he has or has not softened,
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: that is different. He's going to be the only guy,
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: I guess other than hobby By is pulling up in
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: a Lamborghini. He's going to be the only guy with
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: a famous supermodel wife. He's going to be the only
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: guy going to the Hall of Fame. Just compare it
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: to Miguel Cabrera a few years ago. That was great,
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: It was memorable, but it was kind in a way,
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: a little bit of a distraction. I think that all
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: applies with Verlander as maybe a reason the Tigers would
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: not want to bring him into this mix nostalgia side.
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: And here's another thought I had. I had Karan, what
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: if Alex Cop say Alex CoP's struggling, or say he's
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: just okay, and it gets to be August September and
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: the Tigers are in a Pennant race, and what if
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: aj Hinch goes to Alex Cop and says, hey, Alex,
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: you're We're gonna open for you, and then you're you're
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: going three innings today, Alex Scott from all right, I'm
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: not sure that conversations justin Ferlander, and I think maybe
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: these are some of the reasons that JV just as
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: cool as it would be, And I'm not saying it
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: wouldn't be cool, would be awesome, it'd be fun to cover.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure it was quite the right fit, regardless
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: of what the money or the contract ends up being.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: So there's a couple of things here. Number One, I
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: want to imagine like the first day of spring training,
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: had the Tigers brought in Verlander and had you know,
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: as it obviously they're not doing it now. So how
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: to compare the two, Like the first day of spring training,
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: you're there, you the media is there. It might be
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: an increased media presence given that the team, you know,
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: had the playoff success and everyone's talking about Parlaye last
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: season to this season, and you know, maybe any other
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: moves that we don't know about yet could be part
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: of it too. That's team focused, goal focus coverage, right.
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: That would be like the narrative that I'm sure everybody
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: in the offices of Lakeland would really love. And then
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: you bring in Verlander. It's like, now it's literally, lack
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: of a better term, kind of a side show, you know,
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: like you know, the prodigal Sun returns and all that
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: stuff and the mentorship, the locker room stuff. I think
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: this point was brought up by Vincent Goodwill, who used
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: to be local de Detroit now he's national still kind
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: of centered on Detroit a little bit basketball guy. He
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: was talking about when Chauncey Billups came back to the
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: Pistons at the end of his career. And no, obviously
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: the Pistons at that time didn't have the same aspirations
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: that the Tigers this year do, but I think it
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: still applies. Everyone wants to talk about the old veteran mentorship,
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: but it's not an automatic, like that person has to
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: be willing to do it and more or less make
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: it somewhat part of their job. Not everybody does. And
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: I have no idea Verlander would want to do that.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: I'm not making any accusation. I'm just saying in general,
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: like that person has to kind of accept that's where
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: they're at in their career, in their life, and some
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: guys don't want to do that. We, you know, pack
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: we're recording this on Sunday, January twelve. The Packers play today.
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: I guess who didn't want to do that, Brett Farm
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: Guess he also didn't want to do that. Aaron Rodgers,
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: like like Ben Roethlisberger, didn't want to do it. Steelers
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: played yesterday well with our boy Mason Rudolf. So like
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: these these guys have to be willing to do it,
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: and sometimes it takes a specific type of player a
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: lot of times not a Hall of Famer. And again
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: I'm speaking in general here, and so like to assume
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: that he would that Verlander would take on this like
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: mentorship role could potentially be assuming too much. Now, maybe
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: he would do it and everything would be honky dory,
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: but the side show of it, I think is more
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: of a bigger deal. Whereas like Jesse Erlander could be
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: mediocre as a day is long, He's still going to
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: be somebody that people are gonna want to talk to
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: put a camera at in that clubhouse pretty much no
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: matter what. And that is again something that the front
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: office had to take in consideration. And it's not necessarily
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: anything to do with Verlander's like fault or whatever. It's
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: just the fact that he's a Hall of Famer. And
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: the Megi analogy is a great one too.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then out of fairness, I have heard some
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: stories guys like Matt Boyd, I think Daniel and the
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: Wares in the past time about like Verlander was the
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: guy who would take all the pictures out to team dinner,
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: and pay and he would like buy him suits back
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: when players actually wore suits and things like that. So
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: there were some like even in fourteen fifteen sixteen, like
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: some elder statesman elements to him. But yeah, it's like,
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: I don't know why are Hall of Fame players often
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: not the best coaches? Like they see the world through
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: a little bit of a different lens. I think Verlander
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: is more open, is a little more approachable than he
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: used to be. Uh, probably still not Alex, Like, it's
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: just not as natural for him as maybe it is
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: for like an Alex Cobb though, to be the guy
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: who's talking to everyone, who's kind of taking on the
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: mentor almost over his own performance in a way. But
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: we've harped on that plenty. There's another deal out there
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: that I like better than both of these deals. It's
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: Michael Lorenzen one year, seven million. I'm surprised he didn't
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: get more. Lorenzen over the past two seasons three seven
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: eighty ra he's thrown two hundred and eighty three innings.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: He's versatile, he can be used in different roles, but
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: he's been really good four point six b war over
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: the past two seasons. I'm kind of like, Michael bro
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: what's up with your agent? You only got seven million.
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: I don't know if the Tigers wanted to run this back,
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: but very good clubhouse guy. If you'd ask me, which
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: you know I prefer out of all these, it's Michael Lorenzen.
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so that I agree with what you said there,
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: especially at the deal, even though dollars don't matter, but
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: it's obviously a better bargain for the Lorens. And he's
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: younger here looking it up right now. He is thirty three,
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: just turned thirty three. Happy late birthday, Michael Lorenzen. Great
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: workout videos on Instagram, so I want to give him
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: a shout out for that as well. In familiarity with everything,
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: Like I said, the versatility, that would have been great.
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: I think that would have been you know, Michael Lorenzon.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: I'm not gonna say home run higher, but that was
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: a home run signing, but that would have been like,
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: all right, that seems that seems pretty pretty nice there.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: But the larger issue issues not the right word, but
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: the larger kind of premise that I'm sort of like gathering,
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: is that I wonder if like reunions, like we as
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: media and fans kind of like gravitate toward reunions, Like
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: it just like makes sense. There's so many players, Like
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: there's only so much that the average person or even
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: someone like you, Cody can just know. Like there's only
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: so much you can know, like's you can't know every
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: single prospect of every single team, right, So the reunion
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: stuff is something that we gravitate toward. To me, if
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: you could have gotten Lorenzen for one for seven or
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: Verlin or one for fifteen, And to our knowledge, maybe
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: I'm wrong, but to our knowledge, there wasn't really a
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: lot of sniffing around on those. Maybe there's not like
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: a lot of reunion desire at this administration. That kind
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: of parlays it into the next thing. The Tigers reunions
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: keep getting kind of like semi linked, somewhat directly linked
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: to Jack Flaherty, And to my knowledge, there hasn't been
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: anybody like you or your colleagues that are like putting
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: that out there as like there's like real interest. It's
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: kind of like national guys and you know how they
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: kind of frame things. Uh So, like the flarity market
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: is one that we're still kind of trying to figure
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: out exactly he's one of the I want to say
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: the last I don't have a free agent list in
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: front of me, but probably one of the biggest starting
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: pitcher Dominoes yet to go U.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: The biggest.
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So so there you go. And like there's a
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: union element to him that we've talked about a million times,
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: Like he's not just gonna come for some quote unquote
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: hometown discount, team friendly deal or whatever. But I I
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: there's like two things there. One this is this administration
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: really believe in reunions. And two with the Verlander thing
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: and with the Flarity thing, it seems like a lot
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: of people national media are kind of linking the Tigers
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: to starting pitching and at least name wise and somewhat
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: performance wise, like high end sorty pitching, whereas I don't.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: I've never made that link as like a need. So
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: like if I wrong here about that, Like, what are
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: your thoughts on like the actual need to add a
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: starting pitcher. Yeah.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: I haven't heard a lot tangibly either way, other than
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: one thing that was really tangible, which was Jeff Greenberg
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: Tigers GM saying on the record at winter meetings that
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: they were likely done seeking starters. Now there's a caveat
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: from Greenberg. It was the typical like you never know,
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: we evaluate all things or whatever, which kind of makes sense,
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: like if there's a move at the right value, maybe
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: the Tigers still would be in play for a starter.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: I've kind of not advocated but said before like, I
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: don't know, man, if you're really trying to win the division,
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: maybe go out and pay Jack Flerity. I think it
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: is highly interesting after a report from Kim Rosenthal and
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: Will sam In that Flarity and Anthony Santander are open
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: to seeking higher aav lower year deals. This makes me
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: much more interested in Flarity if you could get him
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: for maybe a three year deal that has opt outs
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: after one and two. In way makes me more interested
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: in Santander as well, although that's another conversation, like what's
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: like why not is kind of my thinking. I'm not
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: sure you need him need him. I think the Tigers
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: have good young pitchers. I think it's good to get
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: those guys reps. I think the Tigers can build a
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: good pitching staff with what they have. They have plenty
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: of options, plenty of depth. But I don't know, man,
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: Scooble Flerity, Olsen, Jackson, job that's the top four of
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: a rotation that teams are not going to enjoy facing
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: right there. Curious why Flarity's market has kind of diminished,
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: though I didn't think he was going to struggle getting
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: paid at all because he was really good and at
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: times dominant last season. The healthy ishue looms the back
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: the Yankees mixed to trade because of concerns over his medicals.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: His velocity was really dipping toward the end of the year.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: Last year, he had a couple dominant postseason starts. He
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: in a couple of postseason starts where he struggled and
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: just did not quite look right. So I wonder if
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: that leads to concerns from teams like are we really
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: going to give this guy four or five years? But
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: if his market were too diminished like that, I don't know, man,
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: I could see a case in which the Tigers should
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: be interested in Flairty or maybe even other pitchers for
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: as good of shape as there in. Pitching wise, I
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: think a little more solidifying the rotation couldn't hurt, especially
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: if it's only one year type deal where hey, you
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: could always trade this guy again.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the trade thing, that's part of the problem of
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: the perspective is that, like now, the idea of signing
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: somebody to trade somebody to be expired, like like if
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: the team is about winning the division championship and you know,
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: like the what like one year deals for days. I
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: don't think signing pictures to one year deals is an
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: indictment of like where you think your franchise is. I
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: think that's a lot of in a lot of cases,
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: kind of smart strategy. And you know, you have the ability,
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: like if your rotation is too crowded, let's just say
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: we're sack rotation is too crowded, you can trade Cob.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: You're not really going to use him all that much,
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: and so maybe you trade him for you know, some
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: sort of prospect down the line and just kind of
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: recap something with the asset when he becomes like a
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: little bit of luxury. I don't know if it's just
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: like these are scenarios that could very well play out,
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: but it does bring me to something that we're not
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: talking all that much about. And you had a little
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: nugget here in your mail bag. If you're an athletic subscriber,
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: you can read it. You know, it's about one casey mice.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: We we've he's done the number one overall pick thing
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: for Torque, and there's a little bit that we'll talk
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: about a little bit later. Casey Maiz is another one
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: that like, like, I'm struggling to see where I would
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: kind of put my stamp on his actual fit for
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty five. Now he's one of the guys that
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: agree to terms before the arbitration deadline. He's getting two
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: point four million this year. We've gone through the injury
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: thing with him. We've gone through the can't use the
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: injury as an excuse thing with him, not our words,
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: aj hinches And I'm looking at his fangrabs page. You
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: know they they project him as a starting pitcher twenty
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: six starts. You don't have to go through all the numbers,
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: but basically a four to one two era, four to
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: one four fifth and a one point six war It's like,
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: all right, well, kind of feels like there's something there
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: a little bit. He is twenty seven years old, he'll
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: turn twenty eight during the season. But as you said,
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: it's a little crowded, and then if you add like
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: a Flaharty type, it gets even more crowded. Like where
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: we where we where are we slotting Casey Mees right now?
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, regardless of what else the Tigers do, I think
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: Maze is going to enter spring training slightly on the
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: outside looking in again, scooble Olsen, I think job is
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: very likely to make the opening day roster. I'm pretty
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: sure the Tigers are going to try to give Keinton
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: Aida run as a starter, and that leads a million
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: people maybe competing for an Alex cop No, never mind,
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: that's that's that's your five. Otherwise it would be herder Kider, Montero,
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: miz Manning. We could keep going kind of competing for
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: one spot, hoping there's an injury whatever. I think that's
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: where Miz is, and I think mys is, maybe because
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: of his age, a little more likely to transition to
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: the bullpen. I could see a world where Mines looks
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: pretty good coming out of the pin if he's able
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: to go max effort. And I think the biggest key
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: is can he develop some consistency with the splitter, a
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: pitch that has been just non existent for him at times?
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: And then toward the tail end of last season started
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: looking pretty good classic Casey Mice just enough to be like, oh,
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: maybe there's something there. But I Man, I like Casey.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: He's a smart guy, he's a diligent worker. It's just
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: hard for me to get pumped up about him, and
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: especially as a starter, because look at the peripherals. Man,
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of blue on his stat cast page.
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: Does not miss a lot of bats, does not get
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: a lot of chase. He got hit really hard last year.
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: His hard hit rate bottom eight percentile of all MB pitchers.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: You know, he did generate some ground balls. He does
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: have some extension impair that with the eye test, which
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: is like wildly inconsistent stint but at times highly discouraging.
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: I think it's it's it's become less like some good
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: and some bad and more like quite a bit of bad,
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: and then every now and then you see the really
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: good Casey Mice. I don't know what his future is, man,
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: I think it's trending toward bullpen, but I don't know.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: The Tiger's bullpen is also crowded. Matt Manning is also
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: a great bullpen candidate. But it's it's hard for me
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: to see Casey Maies breaking camp as a starter. It
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: would require a really good spring training, which he tends
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: to kind of have, so that's worth noting, but it
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: would probably require some help and maybe an injury or
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: two along the way.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: Ye know, I'm going back down like all these various
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: starts in my head about you know, watching Casey, and
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: it'd be like it'd be kind of like in two
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: to three batter increments, not necessarily like a whole ending
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: like three or three down, but like two or three
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: batter increments. You see the sequencing and and you see
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: the stuff and you're like, all right, and then like
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: the next two or three it's you know, the slider
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: like you know, isn't breaking, and then there's a double
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: in the gap and you see the same Casey mys face,
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: you know, after all these and you could tell, like
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: you could tell like this is somebody who's thinking it through,
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: maybe a little bit too much, if we're if we're
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: if we're being honest, So like could he mentally not this?
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: That makes it sound worse than what I mean, Like
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: how would he handle like a bullpen? I want to
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: say demotion, but in his mind it probably would be
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: considered a demotion, uh Like, how would he like handle that?
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: Like would he again this is a number one overall
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: pick like like one one. These guys typically don't before
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: they're thirty, like to go into bullpens.
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's a factor to consider too. There was
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: the weird arbitration thing last year. There's the weird sixty
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: day il thing last year. Like, I don't know which
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: would he handle better, going to the bullpen or going
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: to Toledo? Not really sure. One you get to stay
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: as a starter. You get to maybe talk yourself into
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: like I can still be that guy because I'm still
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: a starter. I just need my shot. Or there's the reality,
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: like I don't know, dude, you're one one, you're twenty seven,
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: you're in Toledo. Would you rather look at reinventing yourself
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: maybe as a power reliever? And I still think he
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: could profile pretty well in such a role for as
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: much as like, yeah, Mines is a realistic guy. He
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: has very high standards for himself. He's already there have
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: been a couple of weird situations with the team. I
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: would have legit concerns about like how well he's going
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: to be able to take either of those things in stride.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: And that's not necessarily the Casey's fault be tough for anybody.
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: So when we were talking about Verlander. One of the
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: images in my head was being at game one of
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: the Wildcard round and seeing him like introduced but not
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: on the playoff roster. So it's like, you know, like,
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: you know, like in my mind, it's like it's and
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: I get it because it's a three game series. I
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: understand all that stuff, but just like you know, it's
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: like this justin Berlander, like this dude and he's not
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: on the playoff roster. It's just like a weird thing
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: to drop your mind around. And to a lesser extent,
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: but to kind of cap it's like we're talking about
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: Casey MEI is a guy who also uh did did
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: was not on that playoff roster, right, So like things are,
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: things are sometimes more fluid than we realized, and then
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: we we get away from like those kind of situations
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: where real decisions had to be made, right, and we're
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: talking about them in ways that didn't reflect what was
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: going on just a couple of months ago. Uh, all right,
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: let's go to real brief, really brief, because we already
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: talked about it a lot. But the Nolan Aeronauto thing
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: just doesn't die. Uh, It's like we're gonna trade him,
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: We might not trade him. Is no trade clause? Is
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: a little bit more are loose than and we thought
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: at first. So let me just raise it like this,
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: if you had to put your reputation on the line,
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: not money, not money, just reputation, who is starring for that?
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: Who is most likely to start at third base? Again,
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: it could be neither one of these, but Bregman or Nolan,
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: just like most likely not who will do it? Most likely?
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: Matt Vierling Also, I would say if I would say
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: Alex Bregman is probably slightly is probably more likely at
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: this point. The Tigers definitely again earlier in the offseason
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: did a dive on Aeronatto. Seemed to have some interest
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: in him despite the signs of decline, and maybe he
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: could remain in play as kind of a backup if
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: they don't get Bregman. I don't know. It seems like
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: the Cardinals have not wanted to eat a ton a
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: ton of this money, or they're wanting another team to
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: take on a lot of the contract. That could create
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: some pause in the fact they're not as seemed to
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: express he had no interest in Detroit and a lot
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: of other places. I don't know how willing are you
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: going to be to circle back when a guy like that.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: The reports coming from you know, Aeronauta World seem like
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: a cry for help, a little bit like, oh maybe
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: I shouldn't have mixed that deal to Houston. I think
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: it's mostly coming from his camp to be like, look
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: at me, don't forget about me. I'm available. John MOROSSI
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: I think mentioned the Tigers and Mariners, but I think
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: he mentioned that more as just teams that need help
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: at third base than like actual interests. So I don't
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: have any real updates there. It is interesting that it lingers.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: It is interesting that supposedly Nolan is now becoming more
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: open minded. We'll see this bregmant thing.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: Man.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: I think it's going to keep on dragging out. Uh,
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: so nothing's impossible here. But I also don't, you know,
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: have any sense they're like there's momentum of Nolan to
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: Detroit at this point.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: Do you think if he were to get trade it
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: would have to be after a Bregman signing.
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: I I think that's most likely. I think Bregman is
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: kind of holding up that market. I think it'd be
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: a team that misses on. Now there's a world where
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: maybe one of these teams says, you know what, Scott Boris,
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: We're sick of dealing with you. We're just going to
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: trade for Ronado. I also think all these teams would
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: rather have Bregmant than Arenado, and that's that's why he
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: probably goes first.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and again, like there's been specific to Boston, there's uh,
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: you know, at least second base possibility with Bregman and uh, now,
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: I don't think you're doing that.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: It'd be a lot way more shuffling. If Yeah, I'm
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: not sure Boston really makes sense for him.
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: All right, let's go to the next one to one.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: I just teased it a couple of minutes ago, especially
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: Torkleson you had like a line in our last episode, which,
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: by the way, if you guys haven't gone and listened
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: to our last episode or watched on YouTube, we're very
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: close to one thousand. So please everybody subscrib if you haven't.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: If you have, thank you to our YouTube page. Tiger Territory.
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: Austin Jackson broke down like his swing change, you know,
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: after the twenty eleven season. Uh and like like I
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: think he spoke for like ten minutes about it. I'm
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: probably exaggerating, but it felt like it was just like
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: it felt like a sermon like he was it was
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: like baseball like pure just like you know, going he
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: was cooking. I we did interrupt him, we could, we
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: couldn't because it was just it was awesome. So you
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: haven't gone and listened to him break that down. It's
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: really really good. Torque is going through some swing mechanics
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: stuff as well. You laid that in that episode. You
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: said it on the mail back, so I know there's
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: not like much to report per se, but just like
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: I guess if you could just kind of like elaborate
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: a little bit, because I'm that sparked. My ear is
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: like okay, So, like what he's not being metaphorically left
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: for dead by the organization. If there's like this much
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: kind of resource put in a guy that seems to
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: be left out in the cold a.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: Little bit, yeah, I think. Yeah, here's an actual small
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: bit of tangible insight for once, and I think it's
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: a reminder that although the front office and the coaching
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: staff and the training staff are all closely linked, they
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: sometimes do have to operate as like separate branches of government.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: You know, the front office made the decision to move
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: cold Keith the first base, which puts Torqu in a
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: bad spot. But that doesn't mean the coaching staff and
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: everyone else in the org aren't working just as hard
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: with Torklesen as they were before. You know, Twarklesen spends
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: his offseason in Arizona. Some of the Tigers hitting coaches
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: live out there. I was told there's a lot of
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: work going on with Tork and probably with other players too,
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: But like there, there are people whose whole jobs is
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: to get these players better, and Torqu's a big part
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: of that. It's trying to improve his swing path, you know,
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: cover more of the plate, be direct to the ball,
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: get to his power. And a reminder of something that
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: Tigers do really well right now is like incorporating a
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: third branch of government, which is kind of the biomechanics realm.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: So in order to get him to execute this swing path,
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: it's starting in the weight room, it's starting in the gym,
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: strengthening his core. I'm not getting going to get into
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: the total nerd aspects of it. Maybe Tork will talk
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: about it in spring training, but basically trying to get
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: his body to be able to better execute these movements.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: We've heard a lot about that with Tiger's pitchers in
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: the past. They do it with hitters too, So they're
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: hoping what Torque does in the gym that's beyond strength.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: It's probably more like functional movement type stuff can translate
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: to the batter's box and thus improve his swing. That's
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: just a small kind of tidbit that shows you how
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: these teams actually work, how many people are involved and
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: the resources still devoted to really every player in the organization,
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: no matter they're standing. And I don't think the Tigers
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: operated in quite that way where everything functioned together before
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: Scott Harris.
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well again another example, if it takes a village
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: and if you're like the optimistic type, like maybe maybe
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: there's another chapter it would be play to be written
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: with Torque's Tiger career, like I don't know, like like
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: crazier things have happened, role assuming a lot of things
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: going into this year, which is honestly one of the
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: things you could say is part of the problem Tigers shine.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: I mean, like national perception. I'm not saying this is
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: not my opinion, this is what people are writing national perception.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: They're looking at the Tigers is like, all right, they
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: were a fun story last year, and you know, how
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: are you gonna parlay that? And it's Torres one for fifteen,
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: Cobb one for fifteen. Offseason still young. I understand that,
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: but like you got guys like Ken Rosenthal, some of
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: the most respected voices in like the game, so a
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: being like, you know, you're not you know what's next,
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: And some of that has to do with pregnant, some
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: of that has to do with, you know, some of
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: these other guys that they've been variously linked to, and
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: it's a real thing. Like your colleague Jim Bowden gave
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: the Tigers a C grade right now, says it projections
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: them at fourth place, you know, in the athletic and
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: again it's January twelfth. I understand that, but like the
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: Tigers are not looked at right not being looked at
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: right now as a next team, which is what we
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: were talking about just a couple months ago, right, I
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: think it's hard to argue with the C grade.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: It's a little bit of a like the semester isn't
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: over here, you know, so they could bring that grade
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: up if they really ace a big test or two coming.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: But it's been uninspiring the longer this pregnant thing plays out.
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: I mean, I I don't know if he takes less
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: money less years. Tigers aren't the only team that's gonna
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: like that. There definitely more moves out there on the table.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: Haven't spent much most of this episode on a soap box,
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: but yeah, man like team, the team is gonna have
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: to do more if they want to project to finish
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: the top this division. It's wide open. I don't know
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: that i'd pick them for fourth, but this current roster,
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: I don't think i'd pick him to win the division either.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: And they're not the only team, but Ken pointed out Baltimore.
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: The American League is as open to be got as
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: it has been in a long time, like like a
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: long time. In my opinion, I'm trying to go back
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: like my various decades on this planet, but it does
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: feel like able to be got there. The Yankees are depleted.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: We talked about it earlier. It's like all these teams
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: that either are stagnant or not necessarily making big moves.
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: Moan Soto goes to the National League, there's still opportunity here,
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: and look, maybe these guys develop. All these young Cats,
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: and you know, everything's all good, But I'm just telling
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: you what the national perception is and that that plays
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: into a lot of like, you know, why aren't they
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: on national TV more? Why aren't they being talked about more.
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: It's these kinds of things that we're going to point to, uh,
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: looking back as to why they're not more.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: Talking about here there on ESPN Opening Day. It's all
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: about the Tigers. It's not about their opponent on the
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: Norst Coast. Who plays on that team.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: Uh, you know, just Babe Ruth and William Ay's and
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: you know a couple other good cats. All right, Well
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: we'll wrap up here. Fun, fun discussions. I've been looking
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: to kind of talk pitching for a while, Cody, so
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: I'm glad we were able to do that here today.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: I want to remind everybody you can follow us on
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: x at Cody Stavenhagen. I'm at here on a score
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: Steckley pot page is at Tiger Territory underscore. We are
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: near one thousand subs on YouTube. That's a threshold that
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: they use to measure. Uh, it's not my threshold, So
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: like why we're focusing on it? So that's what they
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: tell us to focus on. So we're very close. Thank
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: you if you have If you haven't, please do tell
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: you mine, tell your sister, tell your brother, tell your dad.
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: Uh to subscribe to us on YouTube. It will be uh.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: It will go a long way to us growing this podcast.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: And I don't want to give anything away, but the
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: people that foul toward to file Territory have some big
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: ideas for us. I'll just phrase it like that. So
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: I want to thank everybody for listening. Apple, Spotify, YouTube,
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: you know the deal for Cody Stapenhagen, I'm Kieren Steckley. Everybody,
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: have a great day.