Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to James Lark about his choice of The Androids of Tara (2/4)

Transcript

Talks to James Lark about his choice of The Androids of Tara (2/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:33
  Hamster with a blunt pen knife for doing.
• 0:35
  Quicker. Welcome to a Hamster with a
• 0:39
  Blunt Pen Knife, a Doctor Who commentary podcast, and we are
• 0:43
  commentating today on the Androids of Tara, not as I
• 0:48
  started to do at the start of this podcast, the Rebus
• 0:51
  operation. Although that would have been a
• 0:54
  lot of fun as well, I would. Have been.
• 0:55
  I would. What I am curious to know is how
• 0:58
  far we could have got through those two stories before you
• 1:01
  realized that I was talking about a completely different
• 1:03
  one. Yeah.
• 1:04
  Well, you as soon the second you said it's all gone dark, I was
• 1:07
  like. Well, it went dark and and I
• 1:10
  thought, you know, yeah, I thought something had gone wrong
• 1:13
  with the screen at first. And then the lights came up and
• 1:14
  I went, no, it's fine. Little glitch in the in the
• 1:17
  universe. Yeah.
• 1:19
  It was the presence of the White Guardian that that put me on to
• 1:22
  my mistake. Can I ask you a question before
• 1:25
  we go into Episode 2 and it's about this sort of fantasy based
• 1:29
  Doctor Who? Because I think we're going
• 1:32
  through the same sort of problem with the current series at the
• 1:34
  moment in that the first couple of episodes were a bit lighter
• 1:39
  in tone. They played by their own Wolves,
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  They weren't altogether serious and there's been a bit of a
• 1:46
  negative reaction against that, just as there was with the
• 1:50
  Graham Williams era back in the day.
• 1:52
  Is there space for this? Oh, 100%.
• 1:57
  I don't even think I see. I, I see it in comparison,
• 2:00
  obviously, because it seems to me that each of this to this
• 2:04
  day, Doctor Who fans who read Doctor Who magazine and vote in
• 2:08
  polls will vote Dalek Invasion of Earth is a better story than
• 2:12
  the myth makers, which seems to be just completely illogical.
• 2:17
  But I, but I do think I have to part of me, I, I have to kind of
• 2:21
  think back to what I would have voted for when I was 10, maybe
• 2:26
  even 12, maybe even 14. I think I would have voted for
• 2:30
  Dalek invasion of Earth as well. And I think sometimes Doctor Who
• 2:34
  fans want think that's what they want.
• 2:38
  And I think that the show delivers what fans think they
• 2:41
  want at its peril. And I think where the show has
• 2:44
  gone badly wrong in the past, it's usually been because
• 2:47
  there's been an attempt to kind of pander to what fans think
• 2:52
  it's about. And I think this series strikes
• 2:54
  me as Graham Williams as strongest because it's it's very
• 2:57
  much his vision for the show. And he's going, yeah, it's
• 3:01
  essentially it's you can go anywhere in this program.
• 3:05
  So let's tell some some fairy stories.
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  Let's let's go for a really strong kind of let's go back to
• 3:10
  the tradition of storytelling. And I I think Doctor Who has not
• 3:20
  very often done this very successfully.
• 3:23
  I love us. What, as I said, when I was a, a
• 3:25
  teenager, Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves, just, you know, I
• 3:28
  watched that and it was like whenever there was any version
• 3:31
  of Robin Hood on TV or anything, you know, Musketeers, whatever,
• 3:33
  anything that involved swords and sword fights, I was there
• 3:36
  for that. And so I love it when Doctor Who
• 3:40
  goes there, but quite often it goes there and it doesn't do it
• 3:43
  very well. I, I don't really rate it's,
• 3:47
  it's various attempts to do pirates as as we discussed when
• 3:50
  we discussed Legend of the Sea Devils.
• 3:52
  I said, you know, I think on television that's probably one
• 3:54
  of the best attempts. I, I don't think they did Robin
• 3:57
  Hood very well. I don't think we get enough kind
• 4:01
  of people sword fighting properly in Doctor Who.
• 4:04
  I, you know, there's an opportunity in the King's demons
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  and instead we've got kind of a long shot with Anthony Ailey
• 4:11
  kind of cringing away from Peter Davidson wave, you know, a sword
• 4:14
  fight they haven't rehearsed they.
• 4:15
  Should have watched this story they want to see how you do it
• 4:18
  right so what's this doing right then that all of those other.
• 4:21
  Stories doing wrong. It's, it's a, it's a, it's a
• 4:24
  cocktail of doing things right. Actually, isn't it because it
• 4:27
  it, it because what Fisher understands is the kind of
• 4:30
  conventions of a swashbuckler, and he's not trying to subvert
• 4:35
  those. He's subverting the narrative by
• 4:39
  adding in an element, but which has, as I was saying during the
• 4:44
  the first episode, it's an element that's taken from the,
• 4:46
  the text. So the idea of the androids
• 4:49
  actually is completely logical within in this story.
• 4:51
  You know, if, if you're going to tell a story involving double s,
• 4:54
  that's how you're going to do it in Doctor Who.
• 4:56
  But he's very respectful of the kind of the expectations of, of
• 5:03
  this kind of story, which is why I think the kind of the, the
• 5:06
  main plot beats are lifted from the, the prisoner's end.
• 5:09
  And that's not a problem because God knows how many other films
• 5:14
  have lifted the same thing. You know, I watch the the Hammer
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  Robin Hood films. You've got similar things.
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  You know, you've got a motive castle and you've got you've got
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  the same kind of set pieces as, as you know, Zender.
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  It was written at the right time, end of the, the, the 19th
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  century. It was bound to be kind of a
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  text that film directors were we're going to draw from.
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  So it's no coincidence that it was turned into a silent film,
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  you know, less than 25 years later and, and became a kind of
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  a standard text for, for the cinema.
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  So I think that kind of being respectful to the source
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  material and, and the writing, of course, is absolutely drawn
• 5:56
  from that as well. The convention of the
• 5:57
  swashbuckle is that people are very, very witty and very polite
• 6:02
  and even enemies are very nice to each other even when they're
• 6:05
  kind of threatening each other. The the central kind of joke, I
• 6:10
  guess, of the prisoner of Zender is that only two people know
• 6:15
  that the king, or only two groups of people know that the
• 6:18
  king is not really the king. And one is the the group who
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  have put the impersonator into the into his throne.
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  And the other is the people who are holding the king prisoner.
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  But neither of them can do anything about it because for
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  one of them to to reveal that they knew that he wasn't the
• 6:34
  king would be to, to blow their, you know, the the only kind of
• 6:38
  advantage they have. So they're stuck in this, in
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  this basically comical situation where the wrong person is on the
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  throne button, but neither party dares say anything about it.
• 6:48
  And, and Fisher understands that.
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  And that is central to this story.
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  Well, he gives you that in this episode, doesn't he?
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  Where the King's on the. Throne at the end of the
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  episode. And both the Doctor and the
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  Count. No, that's not the King.
• 7:01
  Yeah, and I like the, I mean, I, I do like the Prince Reinhardt
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  has has that those scenes in the in the first episode and is
• 7:11
  actually shown to be a decent chap because actually in Zenda,
• 7:14
  he the Prince is a, is a bit of a CAD.
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  And I like that we actually grow to like him before he's taken
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  away and, and, and then we don't really see him until the final
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  episode. I think it helps here as well
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  that the doctor sort of walks us through this story with absolute
• 7:27
  confidence, as if the doctor belongs in this story.
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  Yeah, that, you know, you mentioned Robot of Sherwood and
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  you've got Capaldi's doctor there fighting against the genre
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  throughout the entire episode. Yeah, all the way through and I
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  know. That's supposed to be the joke.
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  But it's like, it's almost like he.
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  Can't get in on the fun, yeah? It's also ruining everyone
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  else's fun at the same time, Tom.
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  Baker is keen to just have a holiday at the start of this,
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  but that's funny as well and then he has to be sort of forced
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  into playing the role. So when he subverts things, like
• 7:57
  when he haggles them down for the, you know, his feet.
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  So half the amount, yeah. It's very, very funny.
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  Well, look, I mean so much to talk about and there's something
• 8:08
  I want to bring up at the start or two, but let's jump in.
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  Otherwise, you and I will never go to bed tonight.
• 8:14
  Should I count this in? You started this.
• 8:16
  Did you? I did.
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  Well, let's go in then. In 543211.
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  Thing I love about David Fisher's Doctor Who stories is
• 8:29
  how he pushes women to the front in a way that very so.
• 8:33
  He does it in Stones of Blood with Sere Diplos, Amelia
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  Rumford. He does it here with Ramona and
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  with Madame Lamia. He does it in Creech from the
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  Pit with a Dastra. And I forget what Eileen Way's
• 8:45
  character's called now, but fabulous though she is.
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  And he says that he had all of these sort of evil aunts in his
• 8:52
  life and he was sort of getting, he was getting it all out in his
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  writing. But you go back a couple of
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  seasons, there's barely a woman to be seen in the Hinchcliff
• 9:01
  era. Oh, it's, it's one of the the
• 9:03
  things that has aged least well about the Hinchcliff stories is
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  you know, when you do get a woman, that's it's never a
• 9:10
  terribly good part. These are really well written
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  female characters, aren't they? Yeah, and I can see why.
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  I mean, this Roman Mary Tam always says this is a fatty rear
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  and it's just. Because it's.
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  So much to do, but I do think I've heard some unkind readings.
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  But I think she differentiates between the characters extremely
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  well in this. Oh, yeah, absolutely.
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  And it's, and it's, it's just very subtle.
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  What? What are you expecting?
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  I mean, they're, they're all, all of her characters.
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  I mean, you know, one of her characters is an Android, so
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  he's going to behave like the others anyway.
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  But you know, all of her characters are very well spoken
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  and polite. You're not going to get dramatic
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  kind of differences. Don't you love that there the
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  cut to the fading on for I. Do I do?
• 9:52
  To show the passing of time again, it seems we don't
• 9:55
  normally really do. The Doctor doesn't have a clue
• 10:02
  what he's talking about. That lodge set is a really good
• 10:06
  match for the the exterior, isn't it?
• 10:09
  Yeah, really nice. I think the best set in this
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  though is that fabulous fro room with the chest board pattern
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  floor, the stained glass windows and that fabulous coloured light
• 10:19
  coming through. I've never really noticed it
• 10:21
  because I've always been looking at the Akamund Wright's house
• 10:24
  instead. I mean, I can understand why it
• 10:26
  isn't Attention Grabber. It's Cyril Shaps for goodness
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  sake. It's just.
• 10:32
  He plays a. A certain sort of character in
• 10:34
  Doctor Who doesn't. He he does, although this is
• 10:39
  this is his, this is his, his greatest screaming, I think.
• 10:43
  Because of the hat though. Maybe may actually.
• 10:47
  Yeah, that's what I'm I'm not praising his performance at all.
• 10:51
  I'm just praising his his headgear.
• 10:53
  You take it to the coronation. Room and you get it crowned.
• 10:59
  This is also a, a, a very witty subversion of, you know, the the
• 11:04
  trick they play in any kind of substitution story is, is
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  already, you know, there's, there's always a having to
• 11:12
  swallow your pride and you know, you're putting a peasant in the,
• 11:15
  you know, it's the Prince and the pauper thing.
• 11:17
  But here it's an Android. It's even more insulting.
• 11:19
  So you're not even going to put the crown on a person's head.
• 11:22
  You're going to just make a robot say some lines?
• 11:25
  Mariah's lying. It's so.
• 11:26
  Miniature crowded Android King of Tara?
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  Never. He goes.
• 11:34
  They also love very. Rude.
• 11:35
  He just goes. Well, I don't suppose he was
• 11:37
  going to walk in through the front door.
• 11:40
  I do. I do like that, the doctor
• 11:42
  acknowledges as well. There's only two of them, the
• 11:44
  King and his his huge team of two people.
• 11:49
  It becomes very apparent in part. 4:00 where they're
• 11:51
  storming the castle and there's only four of them there.
• 11:55
  I do like. The the continued use of the
• 11:57
  line though. It's funny, you know some
• 11:59
  androids say that about people. On the other hand, I could be
• 12:04
  with the Android. I've got better things to do
• 12:07
  than muddle about the politics. Of piffling Middle Planet on the
• 12:11
  other hand, I mean he can turn a line on a dime like that
• 12:15
  effortlessly. I mean, I think it's very bold
• 12:20
  of them to be bringing canine onto location like this.
• 12:25
  But do you see what I mean about how canine just works in this
• 12:28
  scenario? Somehow there's there's
• 12:31
  something about the fantasy, something about the the fairy
• 12:33
  taleness of it. I you.
• 12:35
  Know, I think it's 16. I think Tom Baker's gotten over
• 12:38
  the fact that he's being upstaged by this robot dog
• 12:40
  because there's a bit of resentment in 15 and you can see
• 12:43
  Tom Baker's performers now. He's falling in love with John
• 12:46
  Leeson, so he just loves acting with the guy so that that kind
• 12:50
  of chemistry spills onto the screen When David Breeley comes
• 12:54
  in. In 17 it's different again.
• 12:56
  It is different again and it's not as good.
• 12:59
  No, I love that bit in Stones of Blood.
• 13:02
  Don't you where she goes? I still don't understand about
• 13:04
  hyperspace. He goes.
• 13:05
  Well, who does? And canine goes.
• 13:07
  I do. Shut up, canine.
• 13:11
  See, it just makes you laugh. To think about it.
• 13:13
  Oh, here he comes. Again, it's just it's, it's a
• 13:18
  slightly incongruous image that I think is is what makes this
• 13:22
  Doctor Who. So for all that I was saying
• 13:24
  that canine doesn't really work in Doctor Who, this it's this
• 13:27
  canine that actually is one of the things making this scene
• 13:30
  Doctor Who ish. I don't like it, Rick.
• 13:33
  He's so. Irreverent to Baker.
• 13:35
  In the way he kicks the Android just there.
• 13:37
  So is your king. Oh, and now we're now we're
• 13:43
  working out that Romana might be slightly in trouble.
• 13:49
  Yeah, see, Kano is very useful until the plot needs him not to
• 13:52
  be. Then he either powers down, you
• 13:54
  know, or just doesn't have the answers.
• 13:55
  It's. Much less of that in this
• 13:57
  season, though you know, you can feel them struggling in in other
• 14:01
  seasons to to work out what the hell to do with canine.
• 14:05
  Whereas here it's just he fits in.
• 14:07
  He's part of the he's part of the the fabric of these stories.
• 14:10
  I think that's why I like that dry him out in City of Death,
• 14:13
  though those like he's not needed here.
• 14:14
  Let's not use him. I think his best scene ever,
• 14:18
  James, is you remember when he has to pretend to be evil in the
• 14:22
  Armageddon Factor and go up to the shadow and.
• 14:25
  Hey, 9 becoming evil, that's the that's the stuff, isn't it?
• 14:28
  No. But it's the bit where he's good
• 14:30
  again, but he has to pretend that he's murdered them both and
• 14:32
  he sort of clears his. Throat like a terrible old ham,
• 14:35
  doesn't he? It's very funny.
• 14:41
  Oh, Paul, Madam Lamia, he does say it at one point, doesn't he?
• 14:45
  Just just because I once showed him.
• 14:47
  Once showed you affection once showed you a certain affection.
• 14:52
  It's, it's very understated for a story that's not known for,
• 14:55
  for its understatedness because. All of the sets are, you know,
• 15:01
  the dungeons, throne rooms, things like that.
• 15:05
  I actually think this is a production that hasn't aged too
• 15:07
  badly. No, it looks good and and these
• 15:10
  nights costumes are just the right level of not quite not
• 15:16
  quite traditional. Here's Mary Tam as Princess
• 15:21
  Striller. You know, that's bizarre
• 15:23
  coincidence around the universe, that double S of the Doctor's
• 15:26
  companions to pop up all over the place.
• 15:31
  Because normally, but yeah, so normally you would go to this,
• 15:34
  but what? That's doesn't make any kind of
• 15:36
  sense. But in in this context, you just
• 15:38
  you'd buy it, don't you? I mean, it's part of the
• 15:41
  convention. You'd have to be a pretty weird
• 15:45
  kind of television viewer to sit there going.
• 15:47
  But what doesn't make it Why? Why would?
• 15:49
  Why would there be another person that looks exactly the
• 15:52
  same as that? I love how Count Grendel
• 15:54
  literally spills his evil plans at every possible possible.
• 15:57
  You know any chance he can get, He's like.
• 16:00
  This is how truly evil I am. But it's all done in
• 16:03
  understatement. I mean, he yeah, he he turns
• 16:06
  this on for The Avengers episodes he's in as well.
• 16:08
  But it's it's the kind of oh, it's delicious calling her my
• 16:11
  dear. Don't you, my dear.
• 16:13
  She goes, I'm refusing. I can marry you instead.
• 16:16
  He's explaining his plan. But he's he's doing you much
• 16:21
  more than the master where you kind of go.
• 16:23
  Why are you telling everyone with him?
• 16:26
  It's his. It's his whole character is to
• 16:28
  gloat. He goes, aren't I?
• 16:31
  Is aren't IA lucky man, to have two such ladies like you by my
• 16:35
  side and then Madame Lambie and look.
• 16:37
  At her base, yes. I'm still here, you know.
• 16:39
  Oh. He's wonderful.
• 16:42
  I think this is. The story where Peter Jeffrey
• 16:44
  tells the story about his son picking up the phone and it's
• 16:47
  hello, it's the Doctor Who production office.
• 16:49
  We're just. Seeing if Peter Jeffrey.
• 16:51
  Would be available for a role and his son went I'll do it and
• 16:56
  he had no choice. He said my son would never
• 16:59
  forgive me. Oh, he lives in a bad state,
• 17:01
  doesn't he? He does he's, he's gone downhill
• 17:04
  pretty quickly. But as I say, we, we, we got to
• 17:08
  like him in episode 1. So I think we're invested in
• 17:12
  this character. That's why that's why I'm I, I
• 17:15
  don't think these are small stakes.
• 17:18
  Everyone we've met in this story, we, we feel something
• 17:20
  about oh. No, no, I mean she's a terrible
• 17:24
  old time of it, doesn't she? Shackled nursemaid.
• 17:32
  What about the God? I mean, he doesn't actually say
• 17:35
  much, but he is quite sinister. There's a bit later on where he
• 17:37
  walks in the room and just starts laughing as he's about to
• 17:40
  hurt. Princess Thriller.
• 17:43
  Oh yeah, and I've forgotten that.
• 17:49
  Now, my friend, I must go to your.
• 17:51
  Coronation. It's a pity you will miss it.
• 17:55
  So I think, I think David J Howe and Stephen James Walker were
• 18:01
  quite down on this and they were sort of not very engaging and
• 18:06
  they didn't think much. They didn't think much of the
• 18:08
  characters And I but I think this is a very rich story for
• 18:12
  all. I think all of the actors in
• 18:13
  this are given a decent job to do and seem to be doing it
• 18:18
  justice. I frequently disagree with their
• 18:21
  assessment and a lot of things, though when I bought those
• 18:24
  handbooks. That's actually not too bad a
• 18:29
  map. You know James as well.
• 18:31
  I've seen some pretty dreadful Oh yeah, that Blake Seven
• 18:34
  episode where the map is just one corridor.
• 18:39
  Oh. Here we are and we're back on
• 18:40
  location and it's that kind. Of the sun coming through the
• 18:43
  trees. A glorious day at Leeds Cars.
• 18:46
  You could just relax into it, right?
• 18:54
  So is this where they're planning a siege on castle
• 18:58
  graft? I think they're just, are they
• 19:02
  planning their route in? They've got to, they've got to
• 19:03
  sneak him in. Is this that they're heading for
• 19:06
  the secret passageway? So that again one of the kind of
• 19:12
  stock set piece ideas from Xander.
• 19:16
  Yeah, here we go. I can't talk to androids.
• 19:20
  It's funny you know some androids say that about people.
• 19:24
  Here's the docs are looking at both sides.
• 19:27
  Don't worry, he'll make a speech.
• 19:29
  I forget this it. Won't be a long one.
• 19:31
  I Paul no site. Paul Lavers.
• 19:36
  He is perfect. I could see him in any period.
• 19:38
  He's playing this sort of role. He delivers the very funny bit
• 19:44
  about when they have to storm the castle, but I'm going to
• 19:47
  save that for Episode 4. It's so funny what he has to
• 19:50
  say, the direction he was given. Sodex hat is pretty good.
• 19:54
  If it wasn't going to be upstaged by the Archimandrite.
• 19:56
  We that's that would be a hat worthy of note, wouldn't it?
• 19:59
  I know, but you know, when you go to the party and you think
• 20:02
  you're dressed absolutely the best, no one's going to look as
• 20:04
  good as me. And then you walk in and there's
• 20:06
  someone there like the Archimandrite, you know, you
• 20:08
  bastard, upstaged. I I think I might go to the next
• 20:14
  party and invited to dressed as the Archimandrite just to put
• 20:17
  that to the test. I'll be there when you wear that
• 20:19
  tea cosy hat. It looks a bit Zodiac's hat.
• 20:24
  Looks a bit like Commander Maxill was from Arc of Infinity
• 20:28
  and that was a scene stealer as well.
• 20:30
  They've gone slightly Turkish, haven't they?
• 20:32
  But then I think that's kind of the again, part of the, the, the
• 20:37
  swashbuckling convention that the source material is, is a
• 20:41
  fascination with kind of the Eastern part of Europe and, and
• 20:46
  slightly exotic, recognisable and very well spoken, but but
• 20:50
  very slightly exotic. This is how I don't know if you
• 20:52
  ever read The Scarlet Empress by Paul Myles.
• 20:55
  This is how I imagine all the characters to look in that he
• 20:57
  describes them wearing sort of very outlandish clothes with
• 21:00
  rich colours like this. And crossbows that fire electric
• 21:05
  bolts. What?
• 21:06
  What kind of a person would would not want those?
• 21:08
  As opposed to just a generic laser beam?
• 21:11
  Oh no, we've. James Lark I can see in the
• 21:13
  reefs. Or is it case 9?
• 21:15
  Or is it Alec Guinness? Hard to tell sometimes.
• 21:18
  Yeah. No, I I definitely crouched in
• 21:20
  those reeds and I did a canine and at the time my other half
• 21:25
  was prepared to tolerate that kind of behaviour.
• 21:27
  And even, I think, film it on his mobile phone.
• 21:30
  I can say for sure the mobile phone wouldn't come out these
• 21:33
  days. Fortunately, my other half.
• 21:36
  Is a Doctor Who fan, but not quite.
• 21:39
  It's not as an exhibitionist like I am.
• 21:41
  So he just, so he. Gets to do the filming.
• 21:43
  And a bit embarrassed by it when I'm honest.
• 21:45
  Yeah. Oh, and I call her this way.
• 21:47
  She's using a drill, a diamond drill that doesn't really look
• 21:51
  like a diamond on the Keats time.
• 21:56
  You can go like to go on. The one they've got to remind
• 21:59
  you that it's still important, but he doesn't really want to do
• 22:02
  a Keats time story. Because it's but, but isn't that
• 22:08
  a? Condition in the story.
• 22:09
  Does it really? Except that it's, it's what gets
• 22:13
  her into the, the cast in the 1st place.
• 22:15
  And yeah, I, I guess this is kind of a bit of a bit of
• 22:19
  filler, but Lamia's interest in Romana is, is also interesting,
• 22:26
  you know, that she knows that there's more to her than just
• 22:28
  kind of, she's not just a double where she come from.
• 22:31
  Lamia is an intelligent character and she's just getting
• 22:33
  to kind of show that there's that, you know, she's, she's a
• 22:36
  scientist, a peasant, a peasant profession.
• 22:39
  Did you look at all the history of the castle?
• 22:42
  When you visited Leeds Castle there was a massive fire, Wasn't
• 22:46
  there one time where they lost sort of about half of it and
• 22:50
  they had to be completely rebuilt?
• 22:52
  Yeah, because it's when you go to Leeds Castle, it's not as big
• 22:55
  as you think it's going to be and actually this is not.
• 22:57
  As old as you think it might be. Either it's not either no and
• 23:00
  and once again, credit to Michael Hayes, but he makes the
• 23:06
  thing look. He gives the thing a a sense of
• 23:08
  scale and and you and you've you've discovered where the
• 23:10
  locations are very quick, very quick.
• 23:12
  I mean, they're all quite close to each other and, and you
• 23:15
  realize they, they've, you know, they've, they've done a lot with
• 23:19
  camera angles and just, you know, quite a little bit is
• 23:22
  quite tightly framed. They've made Leeds Castle look
• 23:25
  grand in a way. You know, Leeds Castle is a
• 23:27
  beautiful place and it's a lovely day out and you can hide
• 23:30
  in the bulrushes and you can see where they film Kind Hearts and
• 23:33
  Coronets. And it's got a fabulous maze as
• 23:36
  well. One of those.
• 23:36
  It's got a maze, that maze, so you know when.
• 23:38
  I How long were you in there? I was in there for about half an
• 23:41
  hour trying to find my way out. Yeah, a little while.
• 23:46
  Someone, eventually one of the people inside had to tell me the
• 23:49
  trick. There was a trick to it like you
• 23:50
  had to follow. Oh, is it you follow, you keep
• 23:52
  your handling one of them. Yeah, Yeah.
• 23:54
  So I grew up in in Kent and first trip to Leeds Castle, that
• 24:01
  maze had only just been planted. I've got photographs of they the
• 24:05
  the kind of wooden trellises that they had put to, you know,
• 24:08
  it was a maze where you could see through all the walls
• 24:11
  because the hedges hadn't grown yet.
• 24:14
  Oh, look at this now. This looks like it's come from a
• 24:17
  fabulous classic serial directed by Barry, Let's, doesn't it?
• 24:20
  I expect quite a lot of it has come from a classic serial.
• 24:23
  Or they they won above pillaging costumes and set pieces.
• 24:26
  And isn't the throne used in the goodies is?
• 24:30
  It. I think eventually Tim Brooke
• 24:33
  Taylor develops a throne as is. I think bless that.
• 24:38
  Clock on the wall. It's attempting to look very
• 24:41
  ornate. Oh I love this shot here where
• 24:43
  the camera zooms in on Grendel. He's got some height there.
• 24:46
  He's managing to give that. I mean, that can't have been a
• 24:48
  very big set in reality, but he's giving it a a real sense of
• 24:52
  of scale. And you're right about the
• 24:53
  stained glasses. Shooting the lighter truth and
• 24:56
  then look at all the colours on the walls, it really pops.
• 25:01
  I bet that Candelabra has seen some action as well.
• 25:04
  But it has, yeah, on the throne on Timber Taylor.
• 25:07
  'S throne, doesn't he? Yeah, I, I.
• 25:10
  Think that's that that's forever associated with Timber Taylor.
• 25:13
  In the minds of a certain generation, they ever mind
• 25:15
  timber. Taylor it's Count Grendel of
• 25:17
  Rocks now. Oh.
• 25:20
  Here we go. So they look.
• 25:22
  We've got Knights, we've got Knights with crossbows that fire
• 25:26
  electric bolts and caves. I don't understand why people
• 25:29
  would vote this the weakest story in the season.
• 25:32
  What were you thinking? It's all the.
• 25:33
  Best of Doctor Who here. We're running down.
• 25:35
  You could. Dark corridors, yeah.
• 25:37
  With. Guns.
• 25:38
  Movie lighting it's. Slightly earth shock.
• 25:40
  James. I mean, it's yeah, I'm not don't
• 25:49
  know where to go Extras they. Don't usually get costumes like
• 25:52
  this when they come in to do work, you know.
• 25:54
  Do you think if Janet. Fielding were to come in in some
• 25:57
  overalls or Sigourney Weaver that that's what this story
• 25:59
  needs just to push it up the polls a bit more.
• 26:02
  I was really. Enjoying it until you said that,
• 26:04
  thank you very much. No, she'd be complaining about
• 26:08
  all the. Costumes have you?
• 26:09
  Noticed her on the behind the sofas she's always complaining
• 26:11
  about the companions wearing she's very.
• 26:14
  Very she's very angry that she only got to wear that air
• 26:16
  Hostess thing and it's hideous. Let's.
• 26:19
  Be honest. Oh, here he.
• 26:20
  Is what a? Hat is that?
• 26:23
  Right, that's. I mean, is there any better hat
• 26:27
  in the history of Doctor Who in in?
• 26:30
  History, I think you should say. Has there ever been?
• 26:35
  A finer hat. I want to know.
• 26:39
  So you know, he's got the ear flaps.
• 26:42
  I beg your pardon? Yeah, go on.
• 26:43
  Yeah, the Archimandrite. Cyril Shaps has got, he's got
• 26:47
  very fetching ear flaps and then he's got the tool bit of his
• 26:50
  hat. It looks to me like a hat that's
• 26:52
  been designed in two parts. And I kind of imagined that the
• 26:55
  Archimandra, when he gets home, he leaves the kind of the
• 26:58
  skullcap bit on but just takes the tower of his.
• 27:01
  So he kicks back, but he keeps the kind of ear flaps.
• 27:04
  I'll see you thought. About this in some depth, James.
• 27:08
  That hat fascinates me. I think the costume.
• 27:12
  Designer went I'm just going to go to town on this story and
• 27:15
  have. A lot of fun.
• 27:16
  This is the exact. Point in the story where you
• 27:19
  want a bit of derring, do a bit of battle and it's a secret
• 27:23
  passageway and they're firing bolts out of their crossbows.
• 27:26
  My swashbuckling little heart is absolutely a beating.
• 27:33
  And a lever that. Won't move.
• 27:34
  It's. Tom Baker struggling.
• 27:37
  With that massive lever, yeah, that clock are.
• 27:39
  Moving around the hour approaches we're.
• 27:42
  Heading to a cliffhanger, I can tell clock is a little.
• 27:44
  Bit like the place called Clock, isn't it?
• 27:48
  I love the fact that. Camp Grendel's just waiting for
• 27:50
  his moment, isn't it? And then the fabulous.
• 27:54
  Bit when they go into the room and there's a crash zoom on the
• 27:58
  king sitting in the chair, Yeah. He's.
• 28:00
  His camera movements, I mean, it's, it's very elegantly
• 28:04
  filmed. Michael Hayes is really good
• 28:09
  exteriors and interiors. He's creating a lot of depth of
• 28:11
  field here, some lovely close-ups.
• 28:15
  Like I said, he a little bit of height in that throne room.
• 28:19
  I love the fact. That the Archimandra clearly
• 28:21
  knows. Fingers are our foot, you know.
• 28:24
  He's just said that all the palace guard were indisposed and
• 28:26
  he goes. These these are your.
• 28:28
  Men he knows. He knows how corrupt.
• 28:31
  I love. How brazen he is that Count
• 28:38
  Grendel is? I'm just going to tell you
• 28:41
  exactly what my plan is essentially and intimidate you
• 28:44
  into agreeing. And you can sit.
• 28:47
  And chill Cyril traps plays that really well that you know a weak
• 28:50
  man. Just kind of going.
• 28:53
  With it, because he realises that he, you know, he's probably
• 28:56
  going to be the next king. Here we go, Crash.
• 28:59
  Zoom, crash zoom. A.
• 29:01
  King, OH. Look, you see that?
• 29:04
  Woman there behind him, she's got Madame Lamia style.
• 29:07
  Oh yeah, her hair stuck on her forehead.
• 29:10
  There's a whole. Book to be written about in
• 29:12
  fashion, isn't there, James? Look at the beard.
• 29:15
  The. Beard of the man on the right of
• 29:16
  the throne. There's some brilliant.
• 29:18
  Beard, some brilliant hairstyles.
• 29:20
  You can do a whole chapter on the the hat, actually.
• 29:22
  Now they're all. Coming into the room, it's sort
• 29:24
  of every single period drama almost together, isn't it?
• 29:27
  It's. Not a very consistent but I I I
• 29:29
  I do like Arabian Nights. We got there everything.
• 29:33
  It has got a. Bit of Arabian Nights, hasn't
• 29:35
  it? But that's that is sort of
• 29:36
  embedded in the in the in the text, I think.
• 29:39
  How can a turbans win when the screen?
• 29:42
  Is full of such visual interest. It's.
• 29:45
  Really beautiful, isn't it? And that actually looks.
• 29:48
  Like a crown. To to think.
• 29:53
  That a year ago you had the Sun Makers, followed by Underworld,
• 29:56
  followed by the Invasion of Time.
• 29:58
  We've we've gone from that to something that looks this
• 30:00
  sumptuous, Williams did say. Though he he kept learning the
• 30:03
  lesson that sort of the first half of the season people ago.
• 30:06
  Can we have money for this? Yeah, Yeah, fine.
• 30:07
  Yeah, yeah, fine. And then, you know, you get to
• 30:10
  the arm again. In fact, you're like, oh, bugger
• 30:11
  it. The purse is dry.
• 30:13
  I better bring in a good director to cover the cracks.
• 30:19
  Actually, that looks. As cumbersome that brown, that's
• 30:21
  pretty one on Prince Charles did.
• 30:26
  I think this is. I think the fact that Count
• 30:29
  Grendel is openly kind of astonished and not hiding what
• 30:33
  he expects to happen, and the fact that the Android is just
• 30:36
  slightly wilting and Tom Baker's there kind of controlling him.
• 30:39
  It it, it's a little bit overplayed, maybe it's a little
• 30:43
  bit stagey, but I mean, nobody. Asks why Tom Baker's.
• 30:46
  Put his thumb. Behind the behind What's his
• 30:51
  name? Reinhart's.
• 30:52
  Reinhart's. Neck and the and the slur in the
• 30:55
  speech here is very he plays it very well protecting you at all
• 30:59
  times we. Need to do a.
• 31:01
  Bit more work on his speech circuits.
• 31:03
  It's a little. Bit it's a little bit pantomime,
• 31:06
  but but I think it's what the audience need at this point.
• 31:09
  You need to kind of have a real sense of Oh my God, is he going
• 31:12
  to get through this speech? Are they going to be found out?
• 31:14
  You know, everyone's, everyone sense for different reasons in
• 31:18
  this scene. I know you know.
• 31:20
  It's not exactly film like the coronation was, but there is a
• 31:23
  sense of grandeur here, I think and and in how it's shot as
• 31:26
  well. Well, and unlike the.
• 31:28
  Coronation. There's a sense of discipline in
• 31:29
  when to use the high angle shots and not to cut between them.
• 31:32
  Too often I think this. Clickfanger is shocking as well.
• 31:35
  When he just comes in, obviously you don't see it.
• 31:38
  You just cut straight to the reactions and the music.
• 31:41
  'S more consistent than the music was for the coronation as
• 31:44
  well. There's no, you know.
• 31:46
  There's no Andrew Lloyd Webber anthem in the androids of Tarata
• 31:50
  in the in the. I think it would have helped if
• 31:52
  they'd. Have had Dudley Simpson there.
• 31:54
  Oh. The coronation Yeah, 100
• 31:56
  absolutely. Like do.
• 31:59
  You remember that bit? In Invasion of Time.
• 32:06
  I'm not. I'm not.
• 32:06
  Sure. That's I'm not sure that's
• 32:08
  Dudley's finest moment. I think the coronation should
• 32:10
  have had an under score more like.
• 32:15
  More like the the. The presidential assassination.
• 32:18
  Oh. Wow.
• 32:21
  In the deadly. Assassin.
• 32:25
  That's the mood, that's what I think we've given it, a kind of
• 32:28
  an appropriate sense of grandeur.
• 32:31
  Talk about ending. The episode on a controversial
• 32:34
  note. Well.
• 32:37
  Now it. Appears that Mary Tam has been
• 32:40
  beaten in quite a spectacular way.
• 32:42
  Should we go and find out what's happened to her?
• 32:44
  I'm quite curious. Let's do it.