Latest / The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast / Rhythms of Waiting 2023 | Guest Jen Michel Enneagram One

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Rhythms of Waiting 2023 | Guest Jen Michel Enneagram One · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: Wisdom really isn't about finding the perfect plan.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_03: First of all, it's about having a heart orientation that trusts in the Lord, that fears the Lord.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_03: And that with that orientation of your heart, you move into the complexities and uncertainties of the world.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_03: Wisdom is required because you don't get kind of that perfect five-step, like, here's what the future is going to look like, here's the road, walk in it.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_03: We don't always have that.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_03: And so we walk in trust and fear of the Lord.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_03: We seek to grow in wisdom.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to the Simply Wholehearted Podcast.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: I'm your host, Amy Wicks, your wholehearted living coach.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm so glad that you stopped by to spend some time with me.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: Are you curious about the Enneagram?
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: Do you want to learn biblical truths?
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: And have you wondered if there are life rhythms that will help you thrive?
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: Well, friend, then you are in the right place.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: For six years, this podcast has focused on sharing conversations with my friends about life, business, motherhood, faith, and all things Enneagram from a Christian perspective.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: I truly understand what it's like to juggle everything as a wife, mom to three teenagers, a pup, and all while building a growing business.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: And friend, I haven't always done things with clarity, peace, or joy.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: But still, the Lord has taken my broken-hearted pieces and healed them so I can live with whole-hearted rhythms to provide women like you with a step-by-step process so you can get free of anxiety, shame, and frustrations that might be holding you back from thriving.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: I pray that the Lord speaks to you as you listen today and that you would invite your friends and family to join the fun conversations.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: Are you ready to laugh a little and learn a whole lot?
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: Alrighty, let's get to the conversation.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: Have you ever felt time anxiety?
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know that worry about not having enough time to get it all done?
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I have good news.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_02: You are not alone, and this episode is for you, and you're gonna walk away with some insight that's gonna help you engage with time anxiety in a more life-giving, fruitful way.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: Now, Jen Michelle is an old friend of the podcast.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: She spoke on a habit called faith back in 2021.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: Not only was it so inspiring for Enneagram ones, but so many of you, especially some of my coaching clients, have talked about purchasing her book and it was exactly the resource you needed at the time.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: Now, today, every Enneagram type is going to enjoy hearing what Jen has to say on the topic of waiting and relating to time in a disordered way.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I said a disordered way.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's a really fascinating concept, and I think it's a topic that that most of us can relate to in some capacity.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I know that this episode will be extra special for the Enneagram ones because Jen leads as that type.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: But we're talking about all the Enneagram types today as well.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: Now this episode also concludes our wholehearted rhythm series.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: And because last year so many friends said they loved the episode about waiting, I decided to do it again.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: And it was perfect when I got Jen's new book on my desk.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a book all about waiting.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, it's called In Good Time.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: Now, when you click on that Amazon link in my show notes, here's that description about her book.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: In the pages of Good Time, Jen invites you to disentangle your priorities from our modern assumptions and instead ground them in God's time.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: Then she shows you how to establish eight life-giving habits that will release you from the false religion of productivity so you can develop a grounded, healthy, life-giving relationship with the clock.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: Now, come on, if you are a go-getter or someone who likes to be admired for their time management skills, or even someone who is trying to figure out how to use their time wisely, you're gonna be greatly blessed by Jen's refreshing take on waiting to get things done.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: Also, friend, before you jump into this conversation, if you can do me a quick favor and share this episode with someone that you're already thinking about who needs to hear this conversation, just share here in the podcast app or click the URL to send in a text message or maybe even on social media to share this conversation with your friends.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: I really want to help others discover what their best wholehearted rhythms are.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_02: And it means the world to me to have you share conversations like this with your friends and family.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yay, Jen, you are back again for our wholehearted rhythm series in January here, 2023.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_02: Can you believe it?
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: I mean Oh my goodness.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_02: We can't believe it's been two years since we've gotten to talk.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: That has months have gone by in a blink.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, they have, even though so many of them were pandemic.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we were reminiscing about something being at the three-year marker here of all of that.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how is that even possible?
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's such a weird time warp.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: We'll forever be talking about it because it is what it is.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: But give us a little update on what life has looked like.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm guessing you've launched maybe a couple more kids in here and launching a new book, baby.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, all sorts of things happening probably for you.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yeah.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_03: I have three kids in college now.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so one was home for his freshman year, unfortunately, during the pandemic, um, but has since you know officially moved onto campus and has launched, and then we've launched another one.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_03: So we have three in college, two in high school, and we've actually moved.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_03: We've moved from Toronto to Cincinnati.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_03: We're in Cincinnati now.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_03: So that's probably our biggest change as a family.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, that is a big deal.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: That actually was something we talked a bit quite a bit about two years ago.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: And um, so now you guys are well, Cincinnati, Ohio.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: Or yeah, Cincinnati, Ohio.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: That's a that there's a big difference.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: You're now only maybe eight hours from me.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um actually get to see each other, but uh that's a that's a big leap.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: Were you guys excited?
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: Because there there was a lot of adventure getting to spend time in Toronto as a family, but you know, now the kids maybe got used to that and you're switching again.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we really made the move out of necessity, truthfully, because my mom um is not well.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_03: So we realized that we were separated from our families during the pandemic for 18 months.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_03: The border between Canada and the US was closed.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_03: So we hadn't seen our families in person until July, August, 2021.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_03: And it was really at that time that we noticed that my mom was facing some health issues, um, cognitive decline, truthfully.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_03: And my stepfather what has been in ill health for quite some time with Parkinson's, and actually he has since died.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_03: He died in May of 2022.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_03: But we even before that knew that we needed to have a plan in place to care for my mom and realized that that wasn't going to be possible in Toronto.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_03: So we moved to Cincinnati and really thankfully, both of us have work, remote work, which allowed us to do that.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_03: And the three kids are in college in Canada, so they were kind of situated, and and our boys, um, twin boys who are freshmen were just starting high school, so it was a nice time to transition them.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_03: And God has really provided.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_03: So while on the one hand, it wasn't something that we were necessarily wanting, quote unquote, it's really been a season where we've seen him provide.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, that is intense.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: You name some serious life changes that I think a lot of our friends are going, yeah, me too.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_02: Or, you know, maybe the details look a little bit different, but we are at that stage.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: We're launching kids, we're still trying to finish well, and our parents need care directions.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: We're losing loved ones.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's an intense time.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_03: It's an incredibly intense time.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_03: And I think in these kinds of situations where you find yourself with a lot of complexities in life, you are just asking the Lord for wisdom, and wisdom is really granted for the next thing.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I'm thinking of Emily P.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_03: Freeman.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_03: I've really appreciated her work.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_03: The next right thing, the next right thing.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_03: And we've seen that in the last year of trying to make the decision to move back to the States.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_03: We've been here since July.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and you know, it was just one foot in front of the other.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_03: And the complexities are real because we've left three kids behind in Canada.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so you know, we're just trusting.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm really, I was realizing that my Bible, I use the New Living Translation for my morning reading.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I think so often they're using the word trust, um, where in other versions it's believe.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I really appreciate that.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_03: Like trust, trusting in one, the scripture that's coming to mind is trusting in Christ, the cornerstone.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I was looking that up in the the English standard version, and I realized, oh, the word is believe.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I think, you know, b both are true, but trust is just such a rich word and a word that makes sense of these complex, intense seasons of our lives.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's so interesting you brought up that phrase that Emily P.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: Freeman has made well known in the current day and age we live in.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: I often find myself using a little bit of caveat of it, the next possible thing.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: There is that hang up on the word right.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: And so the reason why I bring this up is as a one, you as a one, and we talked a lot about, we had such a fabulous Enneagram conversation two years ago.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna link it in the show notes because it's that section and of course your book study.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: I've had many clients and people say, Oh, I got John stuff.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: But you talked a lot about a being a one, living as a one.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: This, these last couple years, these last three years, the antithesis, the Pelie's heal of a one.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: None of this going according to Blan.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: None of none of this being right, good, what we really want.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe just share a minute from your perspective, how the Lord has helped you, because obviously trust being a huge element of just having to rely on him.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: And what else has he spoken to you in this of it just really maybe even plans going completely out the window or feeling like wound to smotherly greens?
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_03: Or, you know, I think for me, it was like looking for the perfect plan.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_03: You know, looking for the perfect plan that would not only work out for my mom who was in health, but our older children, our younger children, me, my husband, you know, everybody on the planet, you know, the perfect plan that would just sort of everything would work together for good.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_03: And on the one hand, you know, this that's an incredible promise that we have is that God is working all things together for good.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_03: But that doesn't mean I think that, I don't think it means that we can plan all things together for good.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um, because we don't have that wisdom.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_03: And so the thing that's been helping me the most over the last two years is understanding what wisdom means in the Bible.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_03: And so it happened that I was actually speaking at an event and I was speaking on Proverbs 31, and it just got me reinterested in Proverbs as a book and wisdom literature as a genre in the Bible.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_03: And what you realize is that wisdom really isn't about finding the perfect plan.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_03: First of all, it's about having a heart orientation that trusts in the Lord, that fears the Lord, and that with that orientation of your heart, you move into the complexities and uncertainties of the world.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_03: Wisdom is required because you don't get kind of that perfect five-step, like, here's what the future is going to look like, here's the road, walk in it.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we don't always have that.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_03: And so we walk in trust and fear of the Lord.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_03: We seek to grow in wisdom.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's really been helping me because wisdom isn't really about finding the right, perfect one thing.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_03: It's about, you know, operating in life when you don't really know, but you're submitted to the instruction that God gives in his word, you're in a community of um Christ followers, you know, you're submitted to the disciplines of your own spiritual formation and growth in Christ.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_03: And when those things are in place, you move, you know, you walk, you take a step, and you trust that if it's not right, if it's not what God wants, that He's going to course correct.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so I can think of a particular psalm, Psalm 25, was a really important psalm for me early in this process of making this decision.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_03: And the interesting thing is it says, teach me to know your ways.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_03: It's not just teach me the right way, give me the roadmap.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_03: It's make me the kind of person who could even make sense of the map, should I have it.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_03: So it's much more a prayer of formation than it is for give me the plan.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that has been just a huge relief in this last season.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, that is good.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I know that as my friends are this this whole conversation is wrapping up this idea of what I used to call three weeks to a new year.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: So this is the bonus week of waiting.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of what we do in America and in the Western mindset is we make a plan and we just we take action, we just do it, bootstrap it, make it work.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm all about not just staying at the dreaming phase.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: There's something to be absolutely said and celebrated about the doing phase, but there's also that in between, that waiting, which which you you just talk about here of it's submitting it unto the Lord and submitting it to his ways and being formed by instead of you informing hey Lord, this is how this is gonna work.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_02: I hope we have all learned in the last few years, but that is not what we get to do.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that's not the role we get to play.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: Which leads me to just ask about your new book that you have birthed in this whole process amidst the heartache of loss and moving and change and grief, and I'm sure times of celebration as well.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: But the subtitle, the the book is called In Good Time, but the subtitle here eight habits for reimagining productivity, resisting hurry, and practicing peace.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_02: Come on now.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_02: When I got the book, I was like, Yep, this is my bonus week.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_02: That's week four, all about waiting.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: So give us give us some insight.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: Tell us about how the Lord wrote this in you, in essence, so you could share it with us.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_03: Well, interestingly enough, one of the habits is wait, actually.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so the book really emerges out of a story of um just a disordered relationship with time.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's all I can really say.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's a problem we really understand.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_03: For me, um, for most of my life, it's been about productivity, like this relentless drive to get things done, and this idea that I can measure a good day by the number of things that I get done.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_03: And really, if you extrapolate that out, it's like I measure a good life by the amount of you know things that you accomplished and achieved in your life.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I probably wouldn't have said it like as crassly as that, but I think deep down, that's really what I believed.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_03: So then all of a sudden, we're in a pandemic and nobody's getting things done in the way that they're used to getting things done, and certainly not at the rate at which they're used to getting things done.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_03: And that was such a cause of anxiety for me.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_03: And I, and interestingly enough, I mean, prior to the pandemic, probably the three to four months before the pandemic, I was incredibly busy.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_03: It was just one of those really busy seasons.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought, oh, I just can't wait to get past all these deadlines, and I'm gonna feel so much better.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_03: And then poof, pandemic, the world shuts down, calendar cleared, and I have no more peace than I had prior.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, less peace.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_03: I had more anxiety.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_03: And that caused me to ask myself, I mean, what is really going on here?
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_03: What, what is my, what is, I don't even think I knew it was a disordered relationship to time.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_03: But it started me on just a jag of reading and praying, and honestly, even some new spiritual practices.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_03: One of which was I started to pray the hours, which is just um, you know, a lot of people aren't familiar with that practice.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not, I wasn't familiar with that practice.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_03: I'm born and bred, you know, Southern Baptist.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Presbyterian now.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_03: I have like no familiarity with a lot of the liturgical practices of um traditions, um, like, you know, the Catholics and the Anglicans.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_03: And um, but anyways, praying the hours really is just an ancient practice that Christians have taken up to pray at specific times of day.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not to get things done, and it's not even really to feel more peace, which truthfully is the reason why I started to pray the hours.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_03: It really is to think about creating a constant, continual hymn of praise to God.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_03: And as I started to learn about that practice, as I started to do it, I just started to notice.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_03: I just first of all, I started to notice how I really was reluctant to pray at certain times of day, you know.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, praying in the morning, I kind of had that done.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_03: I had that routine down, but like midday, mid-afternoon, evening, like, no, there are other things I want to be doing or getting done.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_03: And so just the habit of interrupting that urgent kind of need to get other things done was in itself kind of a rescue and a practice.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_03: And so the book really develops um out of ways that, you know, it it suggests that we have other ways that we can be oriented to God in time.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_03: The first chapter is beginning, you know, just thinking about all the ways that God is a beginner, but not in the beginning of like a time management optimism, which is so much about today you can have your best life because you're going to implement this new calendar system and these new hacks.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's not in that sense.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's just returning to hope, believing that, you know, nothing is ever went done with God, you know, that he's finishing a work that he began in us, and that can begin again today.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_03: The second chapter is about receiving, just in and again, not just thinking about time as something to manage, but as a gift to receive.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_03: And then the habit of belonging, thinking about the ways that we belong to each other.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_03: And a lot of times that means inviting interruptions into your life because you belong to a community.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_03: And then, you know, from there, there's other habits too.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_03: The last one really is just, and it sounds a little bit sobering and maybe a little bit um depressing, but it's the monastic wisdom of remembering that we die, numbering our days.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_03: You know, and that returns us to Psalm 90.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_03: Teach us to number our days, that we can gain a heart of wisdom.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_03: And there's that word again, you know, to tie to our last uh question and this category of wisdom.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_03: And we can't have wisdom unless we know that on the one hand, time is very plentiful because God is outside of time.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_03: So whatever he wants to do in the world, like he's never going to be hampered by time.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_03: And then on the other hand, our lives are so brief.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_03: They're a shadow.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_03: They're this, you know, past this mist, this vapor.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_03: And we have to grapple with that.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_03: And interestingly enough, to remember that actually can be a way out of time anxiety.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um, because so often we're just more aspirational for our lives than we really have reason for, I guess.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you said at the very beginning, there, that being at the beginning is also denotes that idea of if God doesn't ever really finish with us, and if eternity is eternity, well then why do we put so much pressure on us to be even doing what God does not do?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_03: God is not in a hurry.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_03: God is not worried about time, and we're invited into that.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, what a different way to frame and and what what did you call your relationship with time?
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: What word did you use?
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_03: I think I just used the word disordered.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um disordered, yeah.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_03: Tell me a little bit about that.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's kind of an Augustinian word, like St.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_03: Augustine talked about um the that the reality of sin is not good versus bad, but actually um a disordering of our loves.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_03: So that you could love something and it be the wrong thing to love in relationship to how much you're to love God.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_03: You're to love God above all things.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_03: And so anything that we would Would love more than God would mean that we'd had a disordered love.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_03: We could love things too much.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_03: We could actually love things too little too.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_03: And we could love things wrongly in relationship with our love to God.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_03: And so I when I think about my disordered relationship with time, I think about all the wrong things I loved.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_03: I, you know, productivity really is, is, is an idol.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_03: I think actually, I guess I could say it that strongly.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think I've ever said that.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think I say that in the book necessarily.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe I do.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I think it's an American idol for sure, um, where we just love to get things done and we love to feel good about ourselves for getting things done.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_03: And of course, there's nothing wrong with, you know, hard work.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's a wonderful, actually, I think it's something that God calls us to, but that's not the measure of our lives.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, other things I love about getting things done is I love people admiring me for getting things done, right?
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_03: You kind of love to play the hero in the story.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_03: I do talk about that in the book, about how time management kind of sets you up to kind of be heroic, um, impress other people by the ways you capably manage your lists and your, you know, your goals.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so I think disordered is a great way to think about it because we it's it calls us to it asks us to identify what do I love wrongly?
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_03: You know, or maybe what do I love too little?
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and even in for me in the book, I really talk about how I learned I discovered I loved community too little.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_03: And I loved the burdens of community too little.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_03: And that really is a part of our decision to come back to the States as well, is to take up a burden for the sake of love and to believe that that really is a good.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so yeah, those are some of the ways I think about that word disorder.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: That is really profound.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: It frames the conversation that I have with my clients.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: Usually the first couple sessions, we explore what is it that is your ideal self, or what are the idols that you're going after that is taking your time, attention, resources, energy.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: What is it that has you instead of you engaging with the authentic self and God's idea of who you are?
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_02: And that only can come into play in a healthy way when remember whose you are.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: And so identifying that idle or as you put it, the disordered.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: I love that phraseology.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: It it really does help guide my clients into where are they orphan-minded?
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: Where do they think they have to do this on their own and make it happen?
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: Same with our efficiency, right?
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: Where we we think it's all up to us when the Lord is going, I order your days.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: I have this plan in place.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: You can keep doing what you're doing, honey, but you're sure going to be tired when you might die sooner.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_03: Remember that you die sooner rather than later.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, that is so good.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_02: I know my friends are going to be excited to dive into this.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: What how did you set it up?
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: Tell us a little bit.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: What does it look like when they get the book?
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: What's the pace of it?
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: Do is it kind of like a study guide in there?
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: What was the the layout um that they can expect as they dive in?
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_03: Well, the first four chapters are kind of short, and they um, and that section is called time anxiety.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_03: So it's really just identifying this what I would call is this anxiety that's really pandemic in our society is um the ways that we're just wrongly related to time.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_03: And so it's kind of questioning, it's talking really a lot about my own story, really, too, of um being a busy mom, having, you know, my own kind of work and my husband's busy career and just life and feeling the overwhelm of it.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_03: So that's really the setup is time anxiety.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_03: Where does this come from?
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_03: How do I experience this in my own life?
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_03: Can you identify?
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_03: And I have a feeling that most people are gonna say, yes, 100%.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_03: Me, me, me.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_03: And and then the eight habits um for reimagining our relationship with time um are again just a look at it's it's a lot of my own story.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_03: It's a pandemic story in many ways, and then woven in with biblical, theological reflections, um, ways that we can cast our hope on God who is outside of time and um kind of reorient ourselves to time and our relationship with time, receive it as a gift.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_03: So those eight chapters, then each of those end with a prayer, um, of just which I think of as a even just a habit or a liturgy, even that they could people can take up, you know, that they could they could copy it, you know, take a picture of it on their phone and you know, maybe pray it at different parts of the day at the beginning of the day, um, end of the day.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_03: And then there are questions that could be used just for your personal reflection or for a small group discussion for sure.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I would like to say that, you know, um, I do have other resources available.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_03: I've I've didn't done like a time habit thing that you can find on my website, just different.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_03: I'm offering them, I've I'd offer them as pre-order bonuses, but I'm sure I'm gonna find other ways to offer them so people can sign up.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's always fun to know ahead of time what is the layout, what to expect.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: I love hearing and meeting a the author and getting the behind the scenes and even a flavor for, oh, is this a person that I feel a kindredness with and I'll love to learn from?
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: But also I want to know what's the sneak peek?
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: I am doing some rapid-fire questions for this month of Wholehearted Rhythms.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_02: So, first of all, what is a new rhythm or habit that you're trying out this year, 2023?
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: I heard about some of the other ones you've developed over the last couple of years.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna explore those myself, but maybe serve something that's gonna be new this year.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_03: Well, one thing that I've had kind of on my list for a while that I practice a bit irregularly, like probably like twice, and then I'm gonna try to do monthly is just have a monthly kind of prayer planning, review, fasting day.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_03: I just think that having a day where you're not trying to like move forward, but you're actually sort of looking back and deliberately kind of planning for the future.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's gonna be really helpful.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_03: So that I'm hoping that that's something I implement.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that would be amazing.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's a a good thing to pray for the grace to be there to do that.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I can't imagine that it would be a fruitless effort or venture.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_02: So it'd be more than the grace to make it happen, right?
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: What's a worship song that you have on repeat?
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: Whether now that's carried you through the last couple of years or that's um been kind of a new year theme for you.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_03: Hmm.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_03: Well, my friend Abby Muirish um made a little play playlist for In Good Time.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_03: And the second uh song, people could probably find it on Spotify.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, the second song is Um Wisdom and Grace by Bifrost Arts.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um teach us to and it's just basically teach us to number our days um that we may declare your greatness and praise or something.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_03: Teach us it's just basically a very short chorus repeated of Psalm 9012.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I love it.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: Oh man, I'm gonna have to check that out.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_02: That that's perfect.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, for you, do you have a rhythm of finding a word or scripture for the year?
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes my friends, my sister does it for her birthday, which is the end of November.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_02: For me, Christmas, birthday, new year, it's all the same week.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_02: So that's my rhythm in selecting the year ahead.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: But for you, do you have something that you feel like the Lord has put on your hurt?
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_03: What I I don't for this year at least, don't have a new scripture or anything like that or word, but I do have like a new version of my rule of life, which is something that I'm trying to be a little bit more diligent about, I should say.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_03: So I kind of had one sort of half-started, um, just this idea of like what are my guiding principles and values, and what is God calling me to in various dimensions of my life?
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_03: And I had been working on it for like two and a half years.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_03: But um, I literally I had started it when we were on vacation in March of 2020, right before the world shut down.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, I really need to do this.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_03: I think this is a good practice.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so it's officially finished.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_03: And what I'd like to do, especially on those monthly days, is just go back to my rule of life.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_03: And it actually starts with a psalm.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_03: At the top is this psalm from a book called Psalms for Praying by Nan Merrill.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_03: And it's from Psalm 119.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_03: And it's basically, I don't have it with me here, but it's basically like, you know, gentle me, let me not be impatient with seemingly endless delays, and um, just enfold me in your patient heart, I know is one of the phrases in there.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_03: So that's a prayer that I would like to continually go back to.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I love it.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's beautiful.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: So good.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: And these questions are always so fun.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_02: I learn so much about different things and perspective.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: As we just close here, and again, our time went too quickly, and there's so much that I love listening to just hearing about your life and perspective.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_02: But what would you love to leave my friends with here as we finish, whether it's about the book or just a message that the Lord has put on your heart as it relates to waiting or our orientation to time, our order or our disorder to time or our relationship to time.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: And how we could, you know, just step into a healthier rhythm of grace in these next coming uh this coming year.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_03: Hmm.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_03: I guess I'd have to go back to Psalm 90 and how that psalm opens is, you know, Lord, you've been our dwelling place from generation to generation before the mountains were um formed or the earth or the world were you know brought into being from everlasting to everlasting your God.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that so many things in life kind of write themselves, I guess, like turn themselves like from upside down to right side up with a view of God, you know, that just when we kind of cast our eyes to the God who is before the mountains, the world who from everlasting to everlasting will be God.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_03: And so it means I don't have to be, I don't have to be God.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_03: There's somebody who is already God.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_03: And so when I don't have the plan, or when I don't have the strength for the plan that I've made, um, there is a God who remembers that we are dust, um, and who is working a plan that extends from generation to generation.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that is our trust.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that is a way to orient ourselves in time.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_03: My life is short.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_03: And yet I don't have to be God.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_03: I just have to trust in the God who is from everlasting to everlasting.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and amen.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_02: Jen, that was so well said, so beautiful.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: Setting us up for the year ahead.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: Whether we have the plan, we're still waiting for the plan, or we're waiting for what we need for the plan, because we're all, we're all gonna be in that place and position.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: But I think that's good.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: It keeps us dependent on the one who, like you said, will carry it to completion, not ourselves.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you, Jen.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for your time.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for this book.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for being willing to share so vulnerably today.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thank you for having me, Amy.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: Well, friend, as you listened, did you realize that you have been finding yourself in a race against a clock each day?
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_02: Or that you've sometimes sourced your value on productivity?
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_02: Well, then I'm sure that you found this conversation with Jen so very refreshing.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: Especially how she talked about the freedom that we can have in a relationship with our to-do list and time.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: I'm also curious, what emotion did you feel when Jen said productivity has been an idol in your life?
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_02: Did that ping something inside of you?
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: A well-known pastor Tim Keller says, our hearts are little idol-making factories.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_02: And therefore, sometimes we need someone to point out good things that can actually become idle things, such as productivity and crushing a big list.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_02: So many of my clients have heard me talk about this as it relates to your ideal self.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_02: Oftentimes our ideal self are good things, but how have they become idols?
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: And how are they creating weariness, stress, and the heavy yoke and the heavy burden that we were never meant to carry?
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: I think a conversation like this is a wonderful opportunity to examine maybe the things that we have been tied to that are wearing us down and creating a distraction from the most important thing.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: Ultimately, I do pray that this episode helps you heal your relationship with time.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I highly recommend you use the link in the show notes to grab Jen's book.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_02: Now, this week, I have a bonus episode that's gonna drop.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_02: I can't wait to share it with you.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's a very special announcement about something that is called the Wholehearted Coaching Collective.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's been a long time coming, lots of prayer, lots of story behind it, and I can't wait for you to hear that special shorty episode that's coming up this week.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_02: And next week, we're gonna kick off our wholehearted relationship series.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_02: If you've been around a while, you know this is the typical rhythm for Amy.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: We kick off the year with whole-hearted rhythms, then next up, wholehearted relationships, and then usually we do some fun spring celebration, not only because it's the anniversary of the podcast, but I like to be able to dive into all nine types.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: I've got so many good things in the works for you, so hang on tight.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, and next week's guest is gonna be Jesse Eubanks.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_02: If you're part of this year's summit, you've gotten to meet him already, or if you're a big fan of the INIA cast, you get to hear him talk on a weekly basis.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: But this is a whole nother perspective interview about his book.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: We're talking specifically about how we relate to God and what is a wholehearted relationship with God and with ourselves look like.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_02: I can't wait for you to hear it.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_02: All right, until next time, friend.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_02: Continue to pursue God's perspective, purpose, and plans for your wholehearted life.