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Trials and Tribulations of Hayden Panettiere · Nurtural Disasters

• Lisa: Hello and welcome to Nurtural Disasters. This is a podcast for those of us with toxic or emotionally immature parents. We might not have a bunch of credentials next to our names, but we do have PhDs from the Hard Knocks University. Basically, we want this to be a validating space for adult children of parents who had no business having children. ⁓ Ken: Welcome to Nurtural Disasters with Ken and Lisa. Hey Lisa. Lisa: Hey Ken. Ken: What's going on? Lisa: well sadly I didn't watch a lot of her shows, but Hayden Pinateer just died. she passed away recently and the more that I find out about her, because I didn't really know a whole lot about her background, but It I felt like I really need to talk about this with you. And I feel like this could be a really good episode, a cautionary tale of a narcissistic parent. Ken: I definitely get what you mean. I have watched a lot of her movies and her shows and but I didn't know a lot about her relationship with her mom or even her dad. I did know her relationship with her brother. She was very close to her brother, so when he passed away, she was she was kinda like teetering. Like she wasn't even in the pretty good shape. I think she was just like I think people that have heard about her struggles with addiction and her issues with postpartum depression. I think once she kind of kicked that a little bit, I think her brother was kinda like her one constant and when he passed away, I think it totally disrupted all the, I don't wanna say all her happiness in her life, but the positivity in her life was kinda gone. Lisa: Yeah, I guess he died like three years before her. And wow. Every everything that I find about her and what her mom put her through and it's very re reminiscent of I'm glad my mother died. Ken: yeah, that's the first thing I thought about when when Lisa: Yeah. Ken: I guess this book came out and I think you're I didn't get to read it. well you you did the audiobook. You're almost through it. I was Lisa: for it. Ken: listening to the Day Shetty podcast, as she it was like a two hour podcast and she reviews a lot about her her life and her Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: you know her demons that are all featured in the book. Lisa: so there's something I did want to bring up. When in the Jay Shetty podcast of which I also saw, did she seem medicated to you? Ken: Do you mean in terms of maybe she was on upper or Lisa: No, opposite. I she was not Ken: Something to calm her down. Lisa: the way she acted, it was I don't I don't want to say delayed, but she she did not look sober in the sense that maybe she was in a lot of maybe antidepressants or anti whatever. And I noticed that too when I was listening to the audiobook, and she had that same tone, cadence. W to the point where I had to f speed it up. 'Cause at the one point I put like one point two five and then just to get it to normal speed, because I felt like she might have been medicated when she was narrating the book. Ken: So you're saying that she's kind of like slow in her reactions and stuff, even her the way she talked was kind of like slower than Lisa: Late. Ken: what a normal person would be. Lisa: Yeah, but like it was lately because if you look at earlier any earlier interviews, she talks normally. I she's obviously sober mostly. Well, except for the parts that I read were where she was a teenager. they they would give her these quote unquote happy pills were just Adderall and she's like she felt I guess not happy, but she was energetic and gave very lively interviews. But I this is the opposite of that. I don't know what she was on. And you could tell she was troubled. It was Ken: Well well it well it could be well if it's anything to deal with her well if it's a downer, like maybe alcohol depressant. I don't know. I d I I didn't see that. she Lisa: I think that's the Ken: did discuss that she does have pretty bad anxiety. And I'm not sure if the manifestation of anxiety probably mixed with maybe like a for me I I I take like Advan. So it's it doesn't slow the way I talk. See I still talk with a regular cadence. I think the only thing that might affect my talking, and this is from someone that has, you know, taken prescription drugs, I have taken SSRIs, which I'm still on, taking Advan. and I'm also taking Adderall. So I think the only thing That you see a difference is when I take Adderall, I might be more talkative than usual. But that's not saying much. I am naturally a talkative person. But I think actually it helps me with my focus. So I could stay on tasks and conversations much better. But I'm just like a chatterbox, like my mind just keeps working. But I don't know. Everybody's kind of different with how they react to these medications. And I I'm not sure because I don't know not sure if there's a toxicology report that's gonna come out with how she passed away. I think a lot Lisa: I think Ken: of it what they said was there was no foul play. Lisa: Yeah, it's still really early. Yeah, she only passed away like two days ago and everyone's like the speculation is that is it she overdosed, right? yeah, she had substance abuse problems. Ken: I I think her boyfriend even mentioned that she was probably on cocktails, but that's not confirmed because honestly, I read that in a New York Post article. So I'm not sure Honestly, New York Post, I'm not sure if it's is a legitimate newspaper. I really don't think so. So it's like you have to take Lisa: And usually Ken: that with grain of salt. Lisa: Exactly. Because it a a lot of rumors are coming out and like half truths, you know, to be sensationalist or whatever. Ken: It's crazy the stuff. I was like, I don't wanna go on like just how bad f like New York Post is, but it's just they're putting all this stuff out and her body's Lisa: Yeah. Ken: is still warm. So I'm like, these alleg these headlines Lisa: I know. Yeah. Ken: are just ridiculous. And a lot of these are New York Post and stuff like that. this is awful stuff they're they're trying to do clickbait and I could understand what they're doing, but just Lisa: It is clickbait. Ken: awful, awful stuff that they're that making up. Lisa: Did you read about the they're saying that there in her apartment they found Narcan? I mean, not that it was used, maybe it was in a box, but just the fact that they said, the police found Narcan in her apartment I mean Ken: The speculation is that New York Post said that her boyfriend at the moment was saying that she had like a bag of pills. So that's insinuating Lisa: So Ken: that she is on a lot of drugs or abusing drugs, insinuating. honestly a lot of people have a bag of pills. So that I'm not sure if that's just the how they pick that line out of everything and just put it in the article, I'm like it's because she had a drug problem, isn't it? She had an abuse problem and this is Lisa: Yeah. Ken: what they want to focus on. They wanna find yeah, she probably passed away because of, you know. bag of pills. a lot of people have a bag of pills, so that's not anything to anybody else is they say pass away to a bag of pills. Let's say like there like an eighty year old and he bagged and they'd be like, yeah, he passed away to a bag of pills. It's like No shit, Sherlock, a lot of eight years old take a a shitload of medicine, so Lisa: Yeah. I yeah. She was so troubled and at the Jay Shetty podcast, she seemed very vulnerable. Ken: yeah, it broke my heart watching it post fact, knowing Lisa: Yeah. Ken: what happened. And you can see like Jay Shetty is I love Jay Shetty podcast because he's he's a good interviewer. he du he tries not to interject too much. It really seems like he's very attuned to whoever his guest is. 'Cause they they talk a lot about a lot of it's a lot about personal stuff with his podcast and you know philosophical things and he kinda lets them talk a little bit. And it does really seem that Jay Shady when he had that part where he it really got to me is I they were like hugging before I kinda like the podcast interview and I think he sensed like a sort of kinda like sadness or something was off, right? She was vulnerable. Lisa: Mm. Ken: I think he even said that she was kinda vulnerable. And knowing what we know now, it's just It it's it's heartbreaking to see that. Lisa: It really is. And I've been listening to her her memoir for the past couple days. you know I love my celebrity memoirs. it was actually at like at the bottom, bottom, bottom of my list. but when I heard her passing, I was very intrigued after every everything that I was reading about her life and You know, I was like on a road trip to the Central Coast in California. So I was like, okay, I want to listen to this. And it's it very interesting. So the prologue of the book, she says, her daughter Kaya, who's 11 years old now, she dedicates pretty much the book to her daughter, and you can tell she really loves her daughter, but she just can't get over her own mental illnesses. Her own mental health issues, not illnesses, but she says, Kaya didn't ask to be born into the limelight or my chaos, and she didn't choose her parents. When she said that, that was like th there was like a there's a wisdom and there's a self-awareness to to that, right? 'Cause a toxic parent would never think to say that. Ken: I think sh I think she knew that she was not able to give her a good motherhood to her to Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: her daughter, and I think she was willing to let her I guess she was they were never married, they were engaged, but Vladimir Kishko, who was probably much known for if you're into sports, like he was like boxing champion. Like him Yeah. Lisa: I read the yeah, part of the book where yeah, where they have their first date at the the magic castle in Hollywood. Ken: He honestly in this in the in the world of boxing, he was one of the guys. Like everybody knew who he was if you follow boxing and even just casual sports, you know this guy, he's larger than life. And the crazy thing is, she's really tiny, so he looks like a giant next to her. And he's a really a big guy. So it just it didn't seem like it was like a almost like a mismatched couple. Like a odd couple. Lisa: That always happens though. Tall guys love short women. And I noticed Ken: No, but it's all but it's also like they don't look like they're a couple either. Like he's he's Ukrainian and she's like blonde hair, blue eyed, right? it's like it's Lisa: Yeah. Ken: very they're they can't look any more different. Lisa: I yeah. And it's funny because like all the pictures of her with her ex boyfriends, they're all at least a foot taller than her. 'Cause she's only five two. Hey. Ken: she's she's yeah, she's really short, so that's t that's the reason why. Lisa: I feel attacked. I'm a as a fiz individual. Ken: Well, are you f are you five feet tall? Like she's like five feet tall, I I think that's like embellishment. Lisa: She said she's she said she's five two on a good day. I think that's what she said on the Ken: I think that's embellishment. I think that's embellishment. I think that she Lisa: That's Ken: might be like four eleven or four ten or something like that. Lisa: That's her that's her Hollywood height, right? 'Cause there's like a Hollywood age where it's like they pretend to be like ten years younger. Like supposedly Beyonce does that and who else what other rapper? The Min Nicki Minaj said she was twenty eight when she's really thirty two. Like some shit like that, right? Well Ken: So how old is Beyonce now? Like fifty seven? Lisa: I mean she looks so good that she can get away with being like, I'm twenty two. And I'd be like, yeah, you do she looks great. Yeah. I Ken: She looks great, I don't care. Lisa: don't give a fuck, yeah. But like yeah, going back to ha Hayden. So yeah, her Hollywood height I guess is five foot two. But I'm I'm closer to five I'm five foot two and eleven sixteenths, actually. Wow, I heard that. Wow, Ken: What? Lisa: you're la okay. You were like I heard that. Ken: I'm not laughing at the five foot two, I'm laughing about the the frickin' de freaking fraction that you put on back of it. Lisa: Well Yeah. Well I it I y d no hate. No hate I I take what I can get, okay? If that's what the skill says, I'm just spitting facts. Ken: I'm sure she's four eleven. She was four eleven, so Lisa: So she's shorter than Shakira. 'Cause Shakira is like she's li shorter than five feet. She's ten feet. Ken: I mean there's there's you know, there's I think there's even a Wikipedia thing on Hayden. I think I remember reading she was five feet tall, like even. So I'm thinking she's even shorter in that. Lisa: Okay. She's so cute though. But I mean not I not wait, Ken: She's adorable. Lisa: but she very I think she was she she has really beautiful eyes. And even when she was a kid, you see she had these b big eyes. She she did. Ken: She had like the prettiest smile. I think it's like it's just a smile where she's I'm not sure what it's just like a very happy smile. Which ironically probably Lisa: She did. Ken: hid like a lot of the pain, right? Lisa: And you know what? It's one of those smiles that like it reaches ear to ear. And I will say about it's funny because I I read an a chapter about when she was losing her baby teeth as a kid, and her mom made her go to the dentist and basically like harass the dentist because she couldn't get an appointment. But and then to get the fill in the gaps of the baby teeth when she would lose a baby tooth and she said when she was for for film it was okay. I think she was on the show Guiding Lights, actually. It was soap opera. And Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: but for commercials you have to have like perfect teeth, apparently. I didn't know this. I was just listening to the her book, and apparently, like back in that day in the n early nineties or mid nineties, Chicago was the big place to to do shoot commercials for some reason, maybe for whatever reason. And her mom got her like it was a retainer and it has a tooth in it. And they pasted it with that What's that pace that I hate to say this. You know, elderly people when they have dentures and they have pink that pink pace, what's it called? Ken: it's something something bond. Lisa: I'm I'm I'm blocking on the name, but like that's what it was. it filled in the gaps in her teeth like that and then she said, but the problem was that it gave her a lisp. So when she got a So like she had perfect smile and perfect teeth, by all appearances, but then to have talked like Viv, you know, to go after her Ken: What the crazy thing is, like I know they wanted perfect teeth, but there's something about a charm about a little kid losing their teeth and they have a little gap right there. It makes it it's very cute. Lisa: It's so cute, right? Ken: I'm I'm I'm not sure. You know, there's probably psychopaths and you know even that commercial making too, so god. Lisa: we'll get to that. that that I that's gonna probably be part two of this because this I think this g this is gonna be a two episode. Anyway. yeah, with the teeth. But they there was a lot of pressure and her mom was just like b basically there was a lot of enmeshment and her mom, total fucking narcissist. Yeah, and i I have this theory, Kenneth. So I think that most stage parents are narcissists. You know, the whole I'm a momager and I'm like, you know, you're just living everyone knows they're living vicariously through their own children. And this one was no exception. Her mo she talks about her mom was an actress herself back before she had children and she was like on in New York, because Hayden is from New York. Or like forty minutes outside New York City and then back and forth Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: into the city. Her mom wasn't in a plate. And there's an interesting story in the book. It talks about her mom was on a TV show with Brian Cranston before he like made it big. So when her when Hayden was auditioning for this one guest starring role in my Malcolm in the Middle and the the role was about the the neighbor it was a neighbor girl Around Malcolm's age, who's really nerdy, And she had her daughter say, she told Hayden, when you do the audition, tell Brian that I wanna meet him. Because she found out that Brian was also directing that specific episode, too. You know, because Brian Kenson was also the the dad, but He worked up to the point where he was directing. Maybe that just one episode. I don't know. Anyway, so she says she really did not want to do it. She was super embarrassed by it. So she's like, she practiced this audition and she was really too pretty to be a nerd, quote unquote, you know, because she was too conventionally beautiful or whatever. so she says, I did the audition, and at the end of the audition, she asks, she goes, my mom wants to meet you. And then she's like, you could hear a pin drop in the room. Cause you don't do that. Like usually parents I didn't know this, but parents are not supposed to be in their room when kids are going like do the doing their audition in front of the producers or directors or whatever. So it's it's very well, what would the word would be? Kind of Ken: Taboo. Lisa: it's taboo. Yeah, whatever. Tacky. Hayden remembers being super embarrassed. It to the point where even Brian Cranston was like she does. Okay, and he's Yeah, she she's waiting outside, she wants to meet you. Like she said it again, like with a big smile, like trying to be even though inside she's like dying of embarrassment. And Brian Cranston goes, Okay, and he's and she said, I think he was trying not to be rude. Cause in real life, I guess I've heard that he's a really nice guy. Especially you don't want to be mean to a child actor. So I guess he opened the door and peeks out, and it's like her mom just ran up to him, like. my god, and hugs him. Do you remember me? We were on a TV show together. my God. It's so great to see you again. You the whole like schmoozing. And that actually got her the part. And it worked. Ken: It worked. It worked. So Lisa: It worked. And then even Brian told her, like, your daughter is completely wrong for the part, but because they wanted like a brunette, you know, more like nerdy looking, more like probably like big bank theory looking, you know, not someone c more conventionally attractive like Hayden. So but they did it and her mom I she it it gives insight into how manipulative her mom is, you know, how she's willing to exploit anything and everything to get her daughter. I mean her daughter got far. A lot of I know a lot of just living in LA, a lot of child actors. And they do not get as far as Hayden. I mean Even even with parents who are just as pushy and stuff, but I think her mom had this extra layer of manipulation that narcissists just in I guess innately have, and was able to get her daughter. Like like that. So it gives insight to it. her mom was not a big fan of the book. not shocking, took umbrage to it. and said that Hayden was making up her bisexuality. Cause in the book it talks about like her liking of other girls, and there's like a this awkward scene in the book where she like puts her hands down in other girls' pants and like her dad walks in on her like when she's like eight years old. it's stuff like that. So if anything, I'm actually making like the book seem really interesting because it really is. She's had a very interesting life, a very difficult life. well I I probably you know what I should go probably go back and talk about this one chapter where Hayden is 19 and she's on the show Heroes at this point, making good money. She bought a condo in LA where she's living with her parents and her brother. And she feels kind of cramped, and then she realizes, you know, my mother and I are very enmeshed. Maybe it's time that my mom just becomes a mom instead of being a mommager. So Ken: it's that part where it's almost like the you know, we we reviewed the Michael Jackson movie and it's the I'm your mom, you're fired thing. Lisa: Yes, it's very reminiscent of the Michael Jackson scene, to the point where I that's that's the complete that's the first thing that came to my mind when I was listening to the audio book. Ken: But the thing is it's different in a way where she wanted to fire her mom so her mom was no longer her manager and just her mom. She wanted her to just be her mom. It was totally fine. I remember what she said too afterwards, you owe me. What the fuck does that mean? Lisa: Yeah, that's exactly what happened. Ken: I could I could not have been if she if she wrote it as a smear piece for her mom, kudos. But just you know, just based on how her mom's reacting to the book in general and just how she reacted to her death, this is definitely a person that's not normal. Okay? So Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: we're dealing with someone that's not a normal person. So we have to keep that in mind. So it's it correlates with what she said in the book. is likely true. Lisa: Yes. yeah, what when I saw the book, she was in the trailer at at NBC Studios and she's like I wanna get this over with and she was r super nervous. I mean her mom was basically I think she's probably so pissed that she just said, You owe me and just w ran out of the trailer. Just like stormed out. And her she said that her mom, when she would be really mad at her Would do like this with thing with her chin, where she would just kind of like an underbite, like a s like clenching her jaw, like like trying to swallow her anger. And and and it was very uncomfortable because, for example, we're with Hayden, where she would go to all these editions, if she didn't do well in in audition, her mom would get so mad that on the drive back home, which would sometimes take forty-five minutes over an hour, and just be fuming and would just give her the silent treatment, which is that itself is like psychological abuse. so she knew, you know, for a child to be given the silent treatment, that is so horrific. You will do anything and everything not to experience it. And since her mom's love was so conditional that she would just she would try to please her mom, to try to do these perfect auditions, and to the to the point where she was able to. It's like Michael Jackson, right? Is that like he demanded perfection from him to the point where it's like, if anything wasn't perfect, beatings. I don't think her mom ever beat her. She never talks about that. but It you want to do whatever you can, yeah, to please your parents. Ken: Yeah, she Yeah, she wanted she wanted something different. Then it's interesting because her firing her parent was in a total different mindset than Michael Jackson firing Joe. I think in her case, she actually wanted to have a better relationship with her mom. Like she wanted her mom not to be Lisa: Yeah. Ken: her manager or slash agent. She wanted her to just be a mom. So she thought Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: that I'm thinking sh at that mindset, she's thinking Hey, you don't to be my agent anymore. You could just be my mom. And I think that's what she Lisa: Yeah. Ken: was thinking. The mom didn't take it that way though. She's like, I'm I don't want to be your mom. I just want to manage talent. That's it. I have no emotional attachment to you. You just happen Lisa: Yeah what? Ken: to be someone that I gave birth to that I signed as a client. Lisa: Yes, and you can yeah, unfortunately you can tell it was that kind of like boss employee relationship versus a mom daughter relationship, which is very common with narcissistic mothers and specifically daughters. Ken: And say especially yeah, especially stage moms. This is Lisa: Yep. Ken: she's the worst of stage moms. Lisa: one of the worst ones. I mean, I've heard some pretty bad like horror stories, you know. Obviously, like Jeanette McCurdy's mom. Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: She might be a little bit a little bit worse. I mean, it's not like the trauma Olympics or anything, but Jeanette McCurdy's mom was more a little bit kookier. But then again, I don't know how much Hayden revealed, like how much she really if there's stuff that she just held back to not make her mom seem look bad because even at the beginning of the prologue she says I have no ill will against anybody. I'm not doing this to slander anybody. I'm paraphrasing. I don't want to make anyone look bad. she's like I've even changed the names of people just so they don't even even though I mean she got done really, really dirty by a lot of people around her and she still uses Ken: Yes. Lisa: a pseudonym. And That's what she says. So the f so I'm wondering if she held back about a lot of things about her mom. Whereas Jeanette McCurdy with I'm glad my mother died, g she just exposed every fucking thing to the point where her I was like, the it's like, yeah, you have to wait until your parent actually dies to expose all that because like the parent will just retaliate y I mean Ken: Well, it's I th I think in in the Hayden side, like she was hoping that one day, even like a small slim chance that they could reconcile. But there's no reconciling it, depending on yeah, if you're dealing with a narcissist like that, guaranteed that the mom is a narcissist. Lisa: yeah. You you Ken: Ooh, I th there's w there's one part in there that she was saying what was it? She was saying her mom said that she sacrificed her career for her. And Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: she's her response to it was, wait a minute. I didn't tell you to sacrifice your career for me. And it just reminded me of If you talk about Dr. Ramani she had this one chapter in her book where she's like, Yeah, something about a narcissist that I think Dr. Ramani was saying, it's like a narcissist picking you up from the airport. And you they're in the car, they're telling you, it's like, well, I had to leave a party for this to pick you up. And then you as a per normal person would be like, Well, you didn't have to do that. I could have just got a cab. But no, I I no it's fine, it's fine. I I I I had to pick you up. It's I'm I was willing, I'm willing to sacrifice it to pick you up. And it's always these things with narcissists where they're telling you that they sacrifice something that you didn't ask them to sacrifice. And this just I was like, that that right there. That's like sacrificing her career. I'm thinking a lot of it is her mom was like a what at best a mid-tier actress. Like she couldn't get a lot of roles. What? She has some soap opera roles here and there, TV shows. She was by no what? by no means even like a C-list actress. Like she was a k what could what could what do you even say about that, like Lisa? Like she she had like a okay career. Like it had she had stun and s she had some Lisa: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ken: credits, but it's like her daughter, by the time her daughter was probably like 10 years old, had more credits than she did. Was more prolific than she was ever was. Lisa: yeah. She was definitely no Hayden. And she definitely lived vicariously through her daughter. And I think I I think she saw her daughter's potential 'cause she saw how beautiful of a kid she was, how photogenic, just how she she saw the charisma right there. And she Yeah. Ken: Mm-hmm. And the thing is, and the thing is, I don't wanna discount the mom because there was old pictures of hers like her stills and stuff like that during her her prime of her career and she was a pretty lady. So Lisa: Yeah. Ken: something just doesn't work out. Sometimes you can't just be pretty and just I mean like go through Hollywood successful. It takes some other stuff too. Some not so Lisa: Yeah. Ken: great stuff, like seedy stuff too, so unfortunately. Lisa: Yeah. yeah. But you know, obviously I think her mom was pretty cognizant of the fact that like there's a certain there's ageism. Let's just call a spade a spade. Hollywood is very ageist. So her mom probably being like what in her twenties having a kid and realizing I'm gonna age out of this industry and after a certain point there aren't a lot of roles for women in in particular. It's like you're the young hot chick or you're the soccer mom. You know, there's nothing really in between. It's it's very difficult. Unless you're like an super a-list like Nicole Kidman or something or you're or whomever. But I think when she saw her daughter and she's like, this is potential because she has like where whereas Hayden's mom, started as an adult actress. Whereas like, if it could start this one as a kid. And also, remember, narcissistic mothers or parents, they see their children as an extension of themselves, like an like an appendage, a limb. seeing her daughter is like, she's a part of me. again it goes with that they don't have that separation, individuation. So I could just this is a continuation of my career, but I could start again anew as a young person. Right. Ken: Exactly. So it's like a no success by proxy. Lisa: Mm, you bite. Ken: And and honestly, her mom wasn't going anywhere. Like her career wasn't going anywhere. She wasn't getting like blah blah blah opposite Tom Cruise. She wasn't getting that. Lisa: N not the plum rolls, it was yeah Ken: No, hecto. Lisa: mm I mean she did the it wasn't Broadway, but I guess it was plays, but yeah. Right. Ken: That's that's great. I know people in community theater too, so Lisa: Yeah, I you know, I live in LA, I know a lot of actors you're lucky if you get a second callback where it's like, my god, I have a second whatever. I'm probably not even seeing it right, but like to get something is so hyper competitive. And for Ken: Yeah, she saw something she yeah, she saw something special in her daughter and her daughter had Lisa: Yeah. Ken: success, so it just kept going and going. It's like wow, she's getting all these roles, huh? She's getting very successful. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: It looks good on me. Lisa: Yeah, right. And she pushed her daughter too. Like she demanded perfection, just like Joe Jackson. You have to know your your lines inside and out, that level Ken: It i yeah, it's that correlation too. You just saw like there was just no emotion there. It's just you do well and that's good, you're supposed to do well. There's no inf there's no love or anything Lisa: Yeah, yeah yeah, and and Hayden Ken: there. Lisa: it's conditional. And Hayden knew that because if it was a bad audition, she didn't get a part, her mom would basically like withdraw the love, but when she would get a job, There was one where she got what was the the show? They offered her like on the spot after the audition. They offered her the the role and her mom was so proud of her and like hugged her. So it was conditional based on how well she did. So Hayden knew, the only way she knew she was gonna receive love was by getting the roles and being perfect. And it set her up for failure later on in life, as we'll see, because it it made her a people pleaser, and she says it in the book, to the point where it's like in order to receive love, you have to betray yourself. And that puts her in a lot of really bad circumstances, especially dealing with a lot of sketchy people. Ken, you were saying there's a lot of really shady people in this industry. And they exploit the fact that you have a hard time saying no because they know you were trained to be a people pleaser because you had a difficult parent. You know, we talked about this. Yeah. Ken: Yeah. Yeah. It's just people she's also tu trusted in the industry that she thought were her friends and they steered her in the wrong direction. It's horrific. Do you remember the story about her like at like partying on a yacht? And then like she had a friend direct her to like a room on the yacht, and then when she gets in, it was just a guy in there that she didn't name and he was like naked, you know, ready for something. And that's just like, my God, Lisa: I have a lot to say about that. I feel like that's Ken: Ooh, that's just so what do you gotta say? Lisa: that's a whole other episode. I d see that's the thing. I'm just wondering if like this should be part two because I just finished that chapter and it's chapter 23. So it's very interesting. I went down a rabbit hole on you know social media, a lot of Ken: Speculations. Lisa: Well, people are putting two or two together, right? Ken: People try to be internet sleuths. Lisa: Well, and to the point where they have the receipts, though. you know, as women, we love our murder porn. Right? There's even a whole South Park episode of I've even heard podcasters make fun of it. Like, why do women love murder porn so bad? And they're like Like, it's because women they they could figure out who the killer is within the first like what two minutes. But it's kinda true because like all of these like influencers on Instagram and TikTok, they're like, Okay, so this British singer and this Real housewife of Beverly Hills. she's not an actress. What is she? Entertainer, whatever. so she had a mega yacht, just like in the book, and the timeline aligns and they were friends and da da da da da. So I my god. Okay, should I start this or should I j should we like Ken: No, you could you could give it a next episode. I think this was this episode that we wanna talk about her her recent passing and just her relationship with her mom. So Lisa: Okay. there's another thing I wanted to talk about not with this. I was really surprised by how close she was to her brother, given that her mother was a very toxic person because usually when you have a narcissisti parent they favoritise one child, they will skip about the other child, they just triangulate the shit out of their kids to the point where their children are not close. But she was so close to her brother. And she talks about her brother being very, very, very such a sensitive kid to the point where he couldn't even sleep alone in his own bed. Like he he would ask his parents like, can I sleep with you? it actually might have been my own brother, because my brother was a very highly sensitive child. And he would come actually come into my room and it's like, can I sleep on the floor next to you? Like, because you'd be so scared. And I'd be like, yeah, sure. You know, that level. that really I I I found that really interesting. And I'm glad they were able to have a close relationship, even though I would probably think that this her brother, is it Jensen? would think that Hayden was a favorite because the Hayden was the one being taken. B she got all the attention from her mom. It's like she's going through all these audit auditions, going on set on location. All the attention is focused on Hayden to the point where it's like the brother feels, neglected, ignored. Ken: Yeah, it's yeah, so pretty much like yeah, her I think the dynamic is everything revolved around Hayden and her career. And makes me want to Lisa: yeah. Ken: think well like during this time, I think there was allegations against her dad that he was abusive towards the mom. And I'm not sure how Lisa: she talked about that. Ken: many gr I I'm I'm not sure how you know how legitimate those claims are. Lisa: she addresses that in the book. she's on the set with she's in her trailer and her boyfriend at the time, Milo Vertimen, whatever his name is. Ken: Who was also who is also a cast member of Heroes. Lisa: The heroes. Yeah. So he comes into her trailer and goes, where's your dad? And she goes, What do you mean at home? And he goes, he's in jail. Like he's it was in the papers or it was in the media. And she was just like, What the fuck? And he's like, What for? Why would he be in jail? domestic violence. And she goes, like the way she describes her dad He's not a violent person at all. usually when there's a narcissistic, there's the passive parent. He was the passive parent. But the whole incident was that they were in a even the night before, they were in an industry event. The mom had been drinking, because her I guess her mom had she had to have her Merlot every night. And the father had previously had cheated on the mom, Leslie. I guess it this incident where them her mom Leslie in the party, she saw one of the people she knew was hooking up with someone who was not their partner, and she was like, I'm gonna tell them. And and she told and her husband said, No. stay out of this. It's none of our business. So get that escalated. They went home. I guess at four in the morning, her mom they had been fighting so much that the mom called the police and then she told the police that he had done something to her physically. But he had already left at that point. And when he came back, the police was there. And there wasn't really I think it seemed like she was making it up. From what Hayden was the way she wrote it, she said it I think her her mom had kind of embellished but it she said she knew her mom had she regretted saying that to the police. Hayden actually had to bail out her dad from prison, I could tell she ha she loves her dad, but I think he also worked a lot, you know, he was a firefighter. So He himself was gone a lot and the whatever. I just thought that was interesting. She does not believe it was domestic violence. Ken: I think I think with her dad, like her dad loved her unconditionally, so it j at least gave her that. So I think that's why she was she's very fond of her dad. So even until like her passing, I think she never really said anything bad about her dad. Like he was just a hard working guy. Lisa: Yeah, and a lot of people noticed too that when she passed, it was her dad who went to the media and said, Yes, my daughter has passed and it wasn't her mom. It was a dad Ken: It and I I feel like we should just you know like wind down another episode and talk about like who said what after her passing. And it's just as you expect it, right? the mom didn't say anything about her sadness about her daughter passing. what I've got out of it was she blamed her current boyfriend for being a bad influence on her and she's like fighting through her demons. That's you're not usually what a parent says about their kid when they pass away. Lisa: Yeah. Ken: That might be something, like a past agent or publicist might have said. Lisa: It yeah, the whole point was yes, I was reading an article just today, Ken: It's mm-hmm. Lisa: just literally like two hours ago, her mom's like, her her boyfriend, I guess it was on and off boyfriend. He you know, it was a lot of finger pointing instead of like this is my daughter, dude. the amount of heartbreak that this would cause me, everything else would just seem so Inconsequential to the fact that if your own child passed away, right? but her mom is like trying to finger point and make herself the victim and that's that's the thing. Ken: Yeah, it's just that lack of emotion. It's that lack of even feigned emotion. It's that lack of even talking about your daughter not being there anymore. It's just it's so kind of like perverse. at that point if you looked at it, it was like, my gosh, hate what Hayden said about her was right. Lisa: Yeah. Ken: Just proved it right there. I I'm not sure if she just you know, some narcissists don't have very good self self-awareness. Like they're not very good at even feigning emotion. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: So and this is a clear clear like admission that she was like that. Like she was devoid of emotion, devoid of like empathy Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: towards her daughter. Lisa: Yeah, y you can tell. There was that c there's a lack of connection or something. It was Ken: It it it just got me so mad because I kept trying to dig for more and more information and I'm like, this is what she said? This is her daughter. this was a kid that she had and she was around like her entire like her life, like most of her career was you know, with with with Hayden, right? Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: Like I th I'm not sure. Up I I'm not sure if I could I do sound kinda like angry. I read that, I'm like, that's it? This is what you said about your daughter? Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: And And honestly, like I immediately was looking around and there are people that have barely met her in passing that left better kind of like dedications or kind of like eulogies than her mother did, which is very disturbing by the way. Lisa: R yeah. Ken: I I thought yeah, and I just wanna say one more thing. I was like I thought the thing that Vladimir said about her with how they might have broken up, but he still kind of kinda loves her and they're still friends and her memory is gonna live on with their daughter. And he he wants to give the daughter the best of memories about her. I'm like, that's exactly how you would commemorate someone's and the celebrate their death, right? Not what the mother said. It's just so disturbing, Lisa: Yeah. Ken: Lisa, it's very disturbing. Lisa: It is disturbing. One hundred percent. I mean I my own child. Ken: It it it broke my heart. It broke my heart. Lisa: Me too. I didn't and when you think about this eleven year old daughter, she's gonna grow up without her mom. I mean, she already grew up without her mom because because of circumstances, but the first thing I would do I if if the if I were Hayden's mom, Leslie. I mean, you know, give a statement, you know, how heartbroken, whatever, but my focus would be completely on the the the daughter, Kaya, that's her name. And make sure. You know, she doesn't feel like she grew up without a mom. But again, toxic parents don't see that. And there's a saying, right? No one plays the victim better than someone who caused the damage. toxic parents, they get super offended when you express how you hurt them. So Man. I meant to say this, I meant to bring this up about when Hayden said, you know, maybe you should not be my manager, just be my mom. You know, you don't have to worry about finances now. you can live a life comfortably and you can just be my mom. You don't have to worry about this very awkward relationship and her mom took ombridge to it and It's like with toxic parents, have you noticed you've noticed this where it's like you express how much they've hurt you and their reaction is to be defensive and get mad. How dare you be hurt by something that I did to you? It's so it's a their ego is more important than i it's it's just s the most important thing for them to preserve their ego. And that's what Hayden was dealing with. Ken: yeah, that's just the thing the thing about the mother is Well, I hope she's lived a very happy life because, you know, like the thing that made her relevant has is now essentially gone, so Lisa: Yeah. And n sh she has like the typical narcissistic mom face and body, where it's like tons of plastic surgery. She was Ken: my gosh, does that remind did you see a picture of her recently? Does it remind you Lisa: Yes. Ken: of your mom? Lisa: I was just about to say that. Ken: good lord, like her lips? What the what happened to her lips? Not your mom, I mean talk about like talk about like Hayden's mom. goodness. Lisa: Yeah, y yeah, I showed you a picture of my mom and you said it was like bad. It it just looked really bad. And the same with Hayden's mom you can tell it's just desperation. It's like I need to look like I'm twenty two again. Ken: Well usually usually it's not normal when your lower lip looks bigger than like three times the size of your upper lip. Like that you see right there it's just like, huh. Something's off there. She might have got Lisa: Yeah. Ken: some of the butt fat. Lisa: Maybe the Kardashian treatment, you know? Ken: my gosh, it's just it just I don't know what it is. It's just it's just Lisa: Wasn't it weird? Ken: awful. It's just awful. Lisa: And she mentioned something else that actually reminded me of my mom, where it's like her mom would dress inappropriately for her age. Where they would go to industry parties and her mom would dress like with super low cut tops and get drunk in front of all these industry people and it would embarrass her. And I'm like, yeah, that's definitely me. Like she wore like these skimpy outfits and I'm like You're in your mid fifties, you know, pushing sixty. Why are you dressed like that? Yeah. It's like almost like they're competing f for attention against their own daughters. Ken: It it's the weirdest thing, right? You're competing abw with her, but you know, she's an extension of you, so where where does it end and where do you begin and Lisa: You know, I haven't figured it out. I have a lot of people figured out Ken: I don't think a lot of people figure it out. Lisa: That's the weird thing. It's like, yeah, you're an extension of them, but at the same time they see you individuated enough where it's like you are their competition. It's so fucking weird to get into their brain. my god. Anyway, you know what? Why don't why don't we just dedicate this episode to her daughter, Kaya? Who j by all as far as we know, she just she's the innocent bystander in all of this. She did not ask to be born just like Hayden said. She's going through all this shit and For us, we're just thinking about her. You know, and I hope her the Vlad, her ex is taking good care of the the daughter. I mean, we don't know. We'll find out when Kaya grows up and then she maybe writes her own memoir. But Let's dedicate this episode to her. Because Ken: Definitely. Lisa: yeah. Ken: well, it's a very somber kind of occasion. I think for a lot of us that are millennials, we kinda grew up with Hayden her entire career. I remember some of the movies that she was in and you definitely remember her in like heroes And it was just you s you saw her entire career and We didn't even bat an eye to think how much she was suffering. we saw news that she ha was having a lot of like her inner demons and drug issues and alcohol issues to numb that pain that we didn't know she was going through. so it's very it's a very somber and kind of like a it's a very depressing end to a story that should not have ended that way. And that's the story of her life. But to think that she willingly gave up her daughter so her daughter will have a good chance of growing up away from that emotional or kind of like mental damage that her mom caused to her that maybe gave her daughter like a chance to h grow up with a father who could always be there and at least grow up some sort of normal way because she couldn't provide that for her daughter. That takes a lot of self-awareness and it's it's very in my mind unselfish. And I think she really wanted her daughter to grow up differently than she did. she wanted her daughter to grow up as a kid, a childhood that she never had. And she knew that the best chance that she had to had to like have that life was with her dad, away from her, where she was just still struggling. She's still an active actress, but she was struggling. And you could tell over the last couple of years she was struggling very badly. So to have that awareness to give her daughter a chance at growing up normal and growing up healthy. That's a really wonderful thing. And unfortunately, she Lisa: And then push the thing. Ken: won't get to see her daughter. if you're spiritual, hopefully she sees her daughter and she's content with how her daughter grows up. But if you're not spiritual, this is it. Like she gave her daughter like the best opportunity to grow up, and it's very sad that she passed away. And as like someone that's a millennial growing up with her, it's almost like like a common thing in your life just disappeared and and we've we've had a couple popular celebrities that we grew up with like pass away. I remember last year when Michelle Trackenberg passed away and it was like, wow, there's like all these people that are a big part of our lives are gone prematurely. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: And it just Lisa: Yeah. Ken: it it kinda screws her head a little bit, doesn't it, Lisa? It just screws her head a little bit Lisa: Yeah, I I actually went to school with Michelle Trachtenberg, so that's Ken: Yeah, I remember you telling me that. And it's you look at that, I was like, Wow, thank you for entertaining us even though you're in such emotional pain. you still, you know, you did your job. Your job is to entertain us and we enjoyed your work. And It's it's Lisa: Yeah. Ken: it's really hard to put into words. I don't wanna say it's like like having someone close to you pass away, but it's it's someone that you have watched and enjoyed work from have such a tragic end to her life and it's just like, Well, this is it. Lisa: Yeah. Ken: There are no happy endings in here, right? Lisa: Yeah. I I get it. And I don't hold it against her. I just wanna make it clear. When she gave up her daughter, she gave up custody of her daughter because she suffered severe, you know, postpartum depression and I d I don't judge her for it it Ken: I think it's great self awareness, Lisa. some people might say it's selfish to give up your daughter like that, but it's Heck no, no, Lisa: No, no, not at all because I Ken: no, no, absolutely not. She was very self aware of how she was. Lisa: But I can see why other people don't think it because a lot of Ken: Unless you live through it, you don't know. Lisa: Exactly. It's easy to judge when you don't live through it, but for as f like, okay, we all know a lot of teenage pregnancies are like, just give it up for adoption. And they do. A lot of them just do. Just get up for adoption and they know as much as they love the kid and they just they love them enough to know that they will be given to a much better family who can provide way more, you know? Versus like You're just gonna struggle. If if you're with me, you're gonna you're gonna have a very difficult time. Super i and I get that and I r actually respect that because they have enough self-awareness and actually requires a lot of maturity to do that. And the fact that I think a lot of people might not have that empathy because Hayden is a she was very well off f financially, right? Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: I think people don't take into account mental health where it's like, you know what, you might have all the money in the world, but if you don't have the mental health to give a child all of the love and they because See, that's the thing. People think raising a child is about putting a roof over their head, giving them enough food, but that's the half of it. But the other half is what about all of the What about the attention? You know, you don't want to emo emotionally neglect them, right? That's the other half of it. Ken: Yeah. well well there's there's people that are like, you know, billionaires that have a bunch of kids and look at their relationship. I don't not gonna say who it is, but you know Lisa: Sure. Yeah. Exactly. It does take awareness and I can see why there's a lot of like how dare you give up your kid. Yeah, and I d actually I do remember when that happened from the tabloids anyway, or the yellow journalism of like she gave up custody of her daughter and Maybe because I'm female and I okay, to be fair, I've never had children, I've never given birth. I but I do know firsthand from like friends and family members who've had children, those hormones will fuck you up. That is no joke. Okay? Like I do have hormonal stuff that happens every month where it you know, it can fuck me up. You know, and I just at that level, like it exponentially worse than what I've had to go through. I just be like, wow, you know, they just need help. But with the instead of providing help, they get judgment. Right? So Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: it's like, a lot of women, especially if they have of means like Hayden I'm just gonna throw a bunch of pills at you and hopefully there's more than that and the I think it's a testament of how society has failed her. Because we don't know enough about postpartum depression. We do not a society has this ideal, idealistic thing about moms where it's like, yes, as soon as you have a kid, you're just overwhelmed with love. And you will just love this kid, and you don't realize there's a lot of it it brings up a lot of stuff and We as a society we have not come to the point where it's like, maybe that's not the case, whether it's hormones, whether it's whatever the reason is, give women the help that they need. And so they get you get judgment, they get medicated, and her passing is an indictment of how much we failed her as a society and women in general. Ken: And Neutrogena. Lisa: my god. that's a you know what? of course I do. Ken: You heard about you heard you're you heard about the backlash of Neutrogenia? we could discuss that ne next episode. Lisa: Episode two is Neutrogena is on our shit list. Okay? Ken: I haven't used I haven't used that garbage in years and I definitely not gonna use that garbage in the future. Well it looks like we're never gonna get a sponsorship from them, so Lisa: good. You know what? Fuck them, because I use Neutrogene as a teenager. Well, I've had like very cystic, like really bad cystic acne and Ken: it's bad for your skin. It just strips all the moisture out of your skin, which is great if you wanted the salicytic acid to like burning your face. Lisa: Fuck neutrogina, I'll say that. You know what? So we could just throw millions of dollars at and we Can you imagine? Ken: my gosh. Well here's the thing, we won't we won't we won't take their blood money. Lisa: This blood mu it's blood money. Ken: If the you think they're gonna give money to us, how they did Hayden, how they cut her, and then how man, we're gonna talk about that in the next episode, okay? Sorry we're sorry we're sorry Lisa: Yes, yes. This is a teaser for the next episode. Yes. Ken: it's such a downer this episode, but you know it's not a happy moment. Lisa: But no. Yeah. You know what? Yes, and stay tuned for the next episode because we'll talk about shit about Neutrogena. Maybe James Blunt. Allegedly. yeah, was it Diana Jenkins? That's not even her real name. from the Real House of Housewives of Beverly Hills. we'll connect the dots about that. Ken: All speculation, by the way. Lisa: allegedly don't sue maybe they can sue us. I mean, there's some receipts anyway, so please stay tuned for that because I have so much to say. There's so tea and you know what I'm doing this for Hayden because even though she did not want to reveal any names and I get that why because she she even said it herself they keep running into the same circles. Even names you like that's why people don't name names because it's a small town and if you You c you're just gonna run into them over and over and over again. It's gonna create that awkwardness, and I get that. But you know what? She should have. I mean, know what we know now with her passing, she probably should have named names. But let's just say please stay tuned for our next episode. And if you listen to this, thank you so much. And we really appreciate that. And it's it's been it's so sad. The sadness and okay, go ahead, Ken. Ken: Save the cheerlead. Save the world. Lisa: Yeah. Okay. Ken: Okay, bye everybody. Lisa: Bye. We'll see you in episode two. Bye bye. Ken: Bye.