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Progressive Christians Need Better Messaging | Alexis Rice & Carter Brown · Follow the Leighder

• Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well howdy folks and welcome back to another episode of Follow the Leighder. I'm your host, Leigh Larson. And this is gonna be a good one. Can you feel the energy yet? Can you, followers and listeners? Y'all, we have Alexis Rice and Carter Brown joining us in the studio today. Alexis, start us off. How are you doing? Alexis Rice: I'm so, so pumped to be here with you two. I'm just already so excited. We've been chatting for 15 minutes offline and I feel like I'm just hanging out with my girlfriends and we're already trauma bonding. It's good. Carter Brown: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely, folks. Alexis organized this. She is the sacred slope online. She's doing a lot of progressive Christian deconstruction work, as well as Carter. Alexis is the one who organized this podcast under my handle today. And Carter is another female content creator, again, focusing on the progressive Christian deconstruction space. I love your work. Also a blogger on Substack. Carter, how are you? How are you managing? With with all going into midterms, we're coming back into school fall. How how are you doing? How's your gut? Carter Brown: I feel so hopeful. I mean, especially coming off of last night's Republican National Convention midterm thing and the pledging to Trump. Like that was that was weird. That was weird. Like I I just was Alexis Rice: That was cuckoo bananas. Whoa. Yeah. Carter Brown: like, okay, like I can't imagine being a Christian in that audience doing that and saying that. it was just very, very odd. but no, I st I still feel hopeful though. you know, despite where things are at currently in our country. I I am very hopeful. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I I am so thankful for your hope and optimism. And Alexis, that's what you're you brought us all together today to talk about is is why we should still believe, why we are so motivated and here in the fight when it's it's it's pretty dark. talk to us about just Where you see progressive Christians right now politically, particularly after last night's Republican demonstration of state loyalty and clearly fused Christian rhetoric, what is your take on the landscape right now? Alexis Rice: You know, I just like Carter said, I am so incredibly hopeful and excited and pumped to see a few things. One is that even looking at last night, I think Trump is going too far for most conservative Christians, even. Like with, you know, him posting himself as Jesus Christ, right? Like doing things that even those of us, and I think all of us were raised, you know, like in this more like conservative Christian. Side of things, or we know people in our family that were raised on that. So we swim in the water, we know all of the sayings, we understand where a lot of this think comes from. That's you know, it devolved into Christian nationalism. But I think this is even a step too far for Christians. It's really starting to feel pretty idolatrous. it's feeling blasphemous, and that is something that I do think is in the conscience right now. Of a lot of people who were raised conservative Christian, even in the United States, is going, we are not supposed to follow an idol. We are supposed to follow Jesus first. we are supposed to be the people known for our love. We are supposed to have fruit of the spirit as evidence of our faith. And we are supposed to care as Jesus commanded us to do. We are supposed to care for the sick, the naked, the poor. The immigrant and visit the prisoner. Like Jesus is really clear on like what it means to be a Christian. We're supposed to love God with all our heart and soul and love our neighbor as ourselves. Like if we could just start at those basics and kind of reframe Christianity, at least in this country, to that, even outside of all of the culture wars, I have so much hope in what this country could become. Leigh/@followtheleighder: That is such a beautiful thank you. And and real quick before we we launch into this, listeners, this is not a a a standard like interview. This is kind of a conversation. I wanted to get us going in in that style setup, but like Carter, please feel free to like jump in and and and chat as a conversation between three women that are looking at this and feeling the same thing, you know. one thing I think about is when you start moving forward with a lot of their women's healthcare politics and policies and we start to see the implications of that. I was looking at how the states with the harshest abortion bans or the most attacks on those right now are seeing increase like skyrocketing levels of endometriosis or ectopic pregnancy sorry, that's what it was. Ectopic Alexis Rice: Yes. Leigh/@followtheleighder: pregnancy deaths. Carter Brown: Cheers. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And those are per like We don't we don't right. Carter Brown: Hundred percent preventable. Leigh/@followtheleighder: W that that doesn't have to happen. And just I there are real world impacts. Like that I think Christians we can't stand by and and just be like, No, this is okay. Like that's not okay. Carter Brown: Well also like the solid like care providers are leaving the states that have Alexis Rice: Mm-hmm. Carter Brown: these laws because they can't adequately like do their job. And so it makes you like wonder like A, you know, what's the belief system behind the people that are okay with allowing a woman to to for that to happen to to die, you know? And so like it's just it It's unfortunate 'cause Georgia is one of, you know, the highest I think it is the highest black woman mortality rate, maternal black mortality rate, and now you add on, you know, the anti abortion laws that we have, it's just entirely becoming unsafe for all of us. Alexis Rice: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm so glad that you brought that up. and I know that you are hosting, but I actually do want to know like, how are you doing? Like, even specifically with you brought up the abortion stuff first. I think this is so important. As we are talking about heading into midterms, something that has really been on my mind is how Democratic politicians in general save a handful, like James Talarico, who's killing it, and Reverend Raphael Warnock, who's killing it. They talk about their progressive values and the and their democratic position from their faith space, right? I don't see a lot of democratic politicians doing that, even though most of them are Christians, like most the governors, most the House, most the Senate, and all of our presidents have been, you know, Protestant or Catholic on the Democratic side. It drives me insane because I think the number one issue, still, still, still that. People do not often talk about is what you just brought up, is that in conservative evangelical Christianity, we were raised that no matter what's happening on the GOP side, abortion is murder. And you cannot vote for murderers. And like until you deal with that obstacle, like you can't get anywhere. How that's been on your mind as we've been really in this fight where we know that if we lose midterms, this is just going to escalate everything because there will be really no checked powers left. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, absolutely. I when you talk about faith driving me without getting too doctrinal or quote organized, but still recognizing that it's it's rooted in in Jesus. But any theology that does not uplift women, children, and the trees is a theology that will cannibalize itself. Alexis Rice: Mm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: and That's not to say that by only focusing on I'm not saying to only f I'm saying the empowerment, the bringing up this. But this is a a cannibalistic system that is it that's like on the whole, like when you watch what it does to our earth, when it just like discards women. and and really like when you get up close to it. So I'm from Texas, Fort Worth, I interned at the Texas Senate in college, like Just kind of in that that world, like it it it it cannibalizes itself too, these men, how men hurt the patriarchy. And I know that like they have done so much to make sure that the marketing continues to demonize the outside so that you never question the inside. Alexis Rice: Yes. Leigh/@followtheleighder: But like at some point and I I don't at all want to put you know, my eggs in some basket, like, they'll figure it out. But because they're not. The patriarchy's been doing this for thousand like two thousand years at least, since Rome, with Jesus specifically. Carter Brown: Mm, mm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: but again, just looking when you can pull vulnerabilities, like and you start to point that like, hey, maybe survival is not ideologically clean. And it doesn't make you a bad person when it's not ideologically clean. But like here I was a good example of this. We had a very evangelical pastor. So disciples of Christ as a denomination can be very libertarian. So you we like on this pastor seminarian theologian trip, we had a Gen Z leftist, we had immigrant evangelical black church. It was like it was a it was beautiful, it was tough, it was a lot of things. But one of the things that the black evangelical was was talking about was he was looking at just abject poverty. Carter Brown: Okay. Leigh/@followtheleighder: and and looking at how these women had no doors, windows, to even have to change in and out of clothes with privacy. They were just naked. And he was like, I I don't I don't know if birth control is so bad because I could just walk in there and do it like any and I was like, Right. Like birth control is a form of protection. Abortion as a form of per like like When you get to the most extreme and it's hard to do that. I mean, how we can't I can't just take a bunch of evangelicals with me to the most extreme environments on earth. But I was I I've been really wrestling with like what cracks in the logic? Like what like w cause it there are. Like there it it can't hold up. It we know it doesn't hold up. But just ew Carter Brown: Wait, this you just got through to me. I've I understand birth control is protection now. I had never understood that until the way that you just explained it. Like, of course, like something happens, you are sexually assaulted, you have that to lean back on. I Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right. Not not birth control as you wanna just go out in the city and like this that's the image they have. Carter Brown: And be a whore. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right. They have this liberal horror. This gives me permission. That's I and I will tell you this, like this has nothing. Carter Brown: I'm mind blown right now. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I said this has nothing and this is me personally. I'm just telling you all this. I learned af in during college that I don't like casual sex and I don't drink alcohol. But like I that doesn't I'm not it's not about premarital or anything like that. I just get attached. I can't do the whole dating hookup on a Friday night thing. And but I love cannabis and shrooms. So it's like a whole like you you have a mosaic Carter Brown: Yeah. Alexis Rice: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: of things going on. Alexis Rice: I'm in California over here with those gummies, so just loving that. Leigh/@followtheleighder: It it's just funny. I'm like, I and they're like, you're a girl scout. I'm like, hold up. But but but my point being, like, I do a lot of solo travel where I have gone to Planned Parenthood to get on the Nuva Ring for that. I wasn't going to I wasn't going to, you know, all these different cities and cool trips on this like go find yourself adventure to go sleep with a bunch of men, because I haven't done that since college, but I didn't want to take home an unplanned pregnancy from abroad. Like, and so you start looking as birth control as a form of of protection. And I think Melinda I I I know the Bill Gates, that whole that gets really dicey with billionaires, but I know that was part of Melinda French Gates' argument when she started looking at I IUDs in Africa. And I that that's a I know gets dicey and but like there's a lot to be said about birth control as a form of protection from men behaving badly. Carter Brown: I just don't know how that was never I've never just heard it phrased like that like that. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. So but that actually, Alexis Rice: I yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Alexis, going back to what would I like to see more of moving forward from progressive Democrats, I think it is completely possible to talk about faith without getting into the specifics. I think Del Rico does a good job. I think you can just say fa like my faith is important to me and guided by my faith. And you know, if there's a loving God, I wouldn't support this bill. You know, like that kind of general Alexis Rice: Or my faith tells me that I should not be Islamophobic. You know? Like Leigh/@followtheleighder: yeah, yeah. Alexis Rice: just simple stuff. Mm-hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Like, yeah, my faith tells me to love all, be the neighbor, right? Like general folksy things. Like where I do think the Christian why a lot of progressive candidates don't is because the Christian right is so specific with their language. They love Jesus. Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. You can't talk about Jesus enough. they can't, there's they'll get all high flutin' about the thou and thighs from the KGV, like language, Christian language is so part of it that like I know and recognize why we're like as general as possible. We'll just call it spirit source creator. And like that is beautiful and there's a place for that for sure. But also you can say the word faith. Like just like it like I we're we're still and like and so one thing that has really changed me has been moving from The South, Texas, and all of that, going through the military, like all of the southern con like being a progressive woman down south and then coming up here. My mom down south is also very active in women's health advocacy at a state level. She's a menopause like my mom has done women's health for and I just grew up in this world. But coming up here, Montana, as remote and isolated as it is, but also is predominantly settled by Irish Catholics for our mining. We have a lot of mining. And and so it wound up being, and it's the West, so you have this Catholic libertarian. So you wind up having a sacredness to there's always like it's not the l liberal secular we should have gay marriage. It's almost like they well, I it's like these Catholics that have maybe like opened up to realize like they don't know what other people like it's just almost like a hands off. And now I was like, great. I love a hands-off more than coming in and taking over the microphone and like coming into a community that's not your own because you're excited and they've been oppressed and you wanna it's like you've got this whole other narrative. It's just kind of like this like and even the way they talk about abortion, it's like we've that's been protected for year. We passed that two years ago. We protected it. We have physician-assisted suicide. we have elected, we were the first to elect a female to Congress before the rest of the country could vote. Like there's all these crazy, like Are you sure you're not progressive? And I'm like, we just we it they don't like taxes because we're very, very poor. But you have this very hands-off do whatever you want, but like a that Catholic sacredness under it. And so I was like, if I could just show that you can still lovingly talk about some of these issues, because it's already happening. There's already little pockets Carter Brown: Mm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: in this country that are demonstrating that. We don't have to sound like Appalachia. We don't have to sound like Georgia. We can sound like this, like. Well, we should support that life, but you know, we life is support life and we support the family, but a woman, you know, medical privacy. Like everything comes back to medical privacy. Everything comes back to like we don't it it's a different approach. And I was thinking about like language is going to be so crucial for us Alexis Rice: Yes. Leigh/@followtheleighder: on the left because we keep Carter Brown: Mm mm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: losing people on language and exploring Alexis Rice: Yes. Leigh/@followtheleighder: How how did Montana, which is a red state, codify abortion? And how do we get other places to do that? Like if like that's what I mean, Alexis Rice: Mm-hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: is like these little pockets. Anyway. I I kind of talk too much, thank you. Alexis Rice: Mm-hmm. Hmm. I think for me, like, sorry. Well, I mean, I grew up in a even though I grew up in California, I grew up in Orange County, which if you know anything about Orange County is like the conservative Republican, like, has anybody seen like MAGA Huntington Beach? Like a lot of that insanity Carter Brown: Mm-hmm. Alexis Rice: is where I grew up. So it's it's really like the Republican capital of California. And because it's a minority in in the larger California, right? There's a lot more of, you know, like. We're gonna double down. and so I I grew up where there were no progressive churches around me. The only churches were non-denominational megachurch. And so that is church. There was no other option, right? And you know, whenever I'd see potentially a a flag somewhere when I was a kid, a pride flag outside a church, the message from Dr. James Dobson and all these other folks was, they're a political church. They only follow their own sins and you know, they have nothing to to say. They're not a Bible-based church. They're not a Bible believing church, right? So, you know, part of that is of course like homosexuality is against the Bible and abortion is murder. Like there's no other way to see this, right? So, you know, you're raised in those waters. How did I change on that over time? I think is like a key to helping, you know, Republican women feel like, hey, We're not saying that everybody should go be Democrats, you know, like that's not the answer necessarily either. But I do think in the midterms right now, seeing what's happening to women specifically, the fact that the Epstein files are so specifically being covered up. So I think that hits women who have ever been assaulted, who are secondhand survivors, who know children who have been abused. and so to see the abuse. And then to see abortion being taken away. And like what you just said, Leigh, to be then also having birth control taken away. Women are just feeling like you're just w what are you doing? Like you're you're tak like you're and then what JD Vance had with I think Cash Patel and saying like abusers are now like allowed to be serving even if they have like records of like domestic abuse or something like that. Don't quote me on that. We have to Fact check that, but it was something like that. I think for me with the abortion thing just going like I could never be Democrat because you know it's bad over there. They're evil and they're godless and they're progressives and they're socialists and Marxists and they want all these bad things. I learned actually a few things years ago from the New Evangelicals from Tim Whitaker's podcast. He had a guest on that talked about if you really want fewer abortions, then you put in the systems that actually protect healthcare. So when people have safe and act free access or safe and safe access to abortion clinics, when they have access to birth control, when they have access to sex education, right? Like these are things that actually drive down abortion numbers. Abortion numbers go up when we restrict this stuff and women die at a higher rate. So that was like one thing that helped me. And another thing that helped me is really going through the Bible with a lot of pastors who are not. Evangelical fundamentalists and saying, Bible doesn't say anything about abortion one way or the other. There are verses that can be plucked out and interpreted to state your case, but that ain't actually saying abortion is wrong, right? There's a lot about you know, serving the poor and caring for the least of these, you know, and not judging but loving. But to die on this hill means a history lesson. So then I went to, okay, what happened? Well, in the S, you know, in the SBC, which probably we're all aware of, they lost the segregation battle, right, in the 70s, and they needed a new way to consolidate political power. And so when segregation was something that they were not gonna win on, they moved to abortion. The SBC did not actually have a Pro-life stance, an anti-choice stance until the 70s. This is a 50-year new thing that has been perpetuated as like this is always how all Christians have believed. And if you talk to Christians around the world, like I do, pastors around the world, they're pro-choice. They're very much for women's rights. so there is absolutely a Christian pro-choice stance that you can feel okay in your conscience, that you are actually protecting and saving lives and allowing the government to Get out of our private personal decisions, which I thought was a GOP stance a few years ago, and I'm not so sure about that anymore. End Leigh/@followtheleighder: Ha ha ha. Alexis Rice: of rant. Carter Brown: No, I like def yeah, I I have like I wish Leigh/@followtheleighder: I see Carter prepping. Like I was like, I wanna hear it. Carter Brown: I had my notebook because I was like, wait, I I need to talk about this. So a lot of Christians, conservative Christians, are it's a single issue, they're single issue voters. And it you know, I've sat down people in my life being like, you know, X, Y, and Z about Trump telling them about Eugene Carroll because I only learned about her this year. And so I know if I only learned about her this year, there are other people that have no idea about her. And you know, the people that I'm talking to and sharing this to, they're like, Yeah, wow, that's unfortunate. But he rolled back abortion. And I'm just like, so we're just gonna ignore all that. And he's like, Well, that's for God's plan. And You know, at the time that I'm having these conversations, I'm not, you know, strong enough or confident enough to continue the conversation to challenge them on this at the time. But, you know, I then went to an advocacy, like Christian women's event back in April. And one of the like program directors came up to me and she was like, you know, what Christian women need to realize is that. Our votes are imperfect. You will never find a person or a candidate or a campaign that you 100% subscribe to. And as soon as you realize that you're gonna have to compromise on where you vote because you know it might go against what you're in alignment with, but like The the pro column is like way more heavily in that direction why you should vote for them. But because there's that one tick about abortion, people are like, Well, they've got my vote. But I was just in DC and one of my Uber drivers was this black woman, and she was like, Look, like, I'm against abortion, but like I I'm not gonna prevent another woman from not being able to go get that, just because I myself am not going to do that. And so I think that's just what we need to like step back and realize Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right. Carter Brown: is like we've got to stop policing other people's lives. And I Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yes. Carter Brown: why I was in DC was for this summit for Policy Link. And basically, like the whole conference was about like, if we wrote the constitution today, what would that look like if everyone was in mind when that was written, not just a certain group of people. And Alexis Rice: right. So cool. Mm-hmm. Carter Brown: it was really it just in enlightening and because as someone who's Now been entrenched in both sides. The utopia is the same, but one side wants to police how you live in that utopia, and the other one just doesn't want any hate. And it when you like look at it like that, it's like, why are we choosing the being policed how we live? And I think like one main reason why I never turned to nihilism in my like deconstruction journey is like one of my like woo-woo friends told me to read Journey of Souls, which totally changed the way that I looked at like how and why we're on Earth. And I look at Earth as like this, like it's a school, honestly. And when you look at it like we are all here on our own path, experiencing different human experiences, I I stop caring about how other people have chosen the avatar that they want to live in this human life on earth to experience what it's like to live in that avatar. Like, who am I to judge that and to like question why you're living that life? And so many Christians are not following the Sermon on the Mount and judging these people and judging why they're living their life and questioning their these people's own intuition. You think you know someone's intuition more than themselves? Wow. Like that's really, you know, righteous of you to think. And so I think if we can get to this idea that Christian conservatives today, they when they're at an impasse, they choose Paul's words over Jesus's every time. And Alexis Rice: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Carter Brown: I explained that to a woman this morning that I had coffee with that is a new like progressive friend that I have in Atlanta, because I didn't have have a lot of those here. And this is our first time meeting. And I told her that. I was like, conservative Christians value what Paul had to say more than what Jesus. And she was like, I've never thought about it like that, but you're so right. And so I think if we can like get people to like see it from that perspective that like you are literally negating what Jesus came here to do and to change and we're going right back to where, you know, he was trying to get people to be like, yo, the Pharisees got it wrong. Like what's going on? And here we are living life by following what the Pharisees have to say. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Yeah. I I so appreciate you bringing that up too. Even just like I two years ago I wrote a paper that was admitted to a conference. I was a finalist for a conference and it was all about how there is a direct line between religious freedoms and women's rights in the United States. And you can like see that like this whole deep dive on it. And At that same conference there was a woman who gave a keynote. And again, disciples of Christ, like because it the creedless faith, it doesn't we have it just winds up being libertarians. So we there was a number of different people in the audience. And it was in Appalachia, I want to say it was like Kentucky or somewhere. Knoxville, that's where it was. And this woman did not use any quote left language, progressive language, she kept it cli purely to the Bible and scripture to argue why corporate farming is unchristian and like how the current ag practices of corporate agriculture are terrible to our rivers, they're not ethical to the treatment of animals. She even went in like I mean she I mean I've never I I mean my jaw was dropped. She didn't say climate change. She didn't say sustainability. She didn't say all the left right. And I I was on the edge of my seat. I was like watching like these people, like, she's right. She's right. And like people respond and say, Yeah, you're right. I think I get I have a real problem with consumers Christian culture. And like they don't even like that's consumers Christian culture is like not even a phrase that they thought of, but like you were saying, when like you like change it just a little bit and you're like, is this really is the culture even lining up with what these companies are printing on their products that they got a Bible verse or they claim to be this particular like and and it was again like it it you have to reach them in your langu in their language, like going and showing Alexis Rice: Yes. Leigh/@followtheleighder: them actually they y'all listen to Paul or we or however you want to word it, but like, Paul is valued more than Jesus. You can't just say, like, you're Yeah. Right. But I mean, you it Alexis Rice: Or the pseudonym of Paul and Timothy, by the way, who probably wasn't even Paul. A whole that's a whole other thing, but it's important. Carter Brown: Right. Right. Leigh/@followtheleighder: and it's been beautiful for me as a progressive Christian because I've had to come back to the word. You know, I've had to to like Carter Brown: Mm. Alexis Rice: Yes, yes, yes. Leigh/@followtheleighder: to like reclaim it and be like, you guys don't have the monopoly on this. That's not that's and and and it's again, it just Just the way the spirit works. You're like, Yeah, organize religion and like all this stuff and you're like, No, if you're gonna fight, let's fight. Like like and so for things like the destruct deconstructicon and Carter Brown: Yeah, don't say destru what did I say destructicon? Leigh/@followtheleighder: Destruct the guy. Alexis Rice: Destruct a con Carter Brown: Sorry. Oops. Destructicon, right, yeah. We'll do that. We'll burn it all down. yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I we should w w the three of us will do the destructicon. Well like we're gonna deconstruct over here and everyone come over here and we're just gonna light things up in the woods. Alright. But but I mean going Alexis Rice: So for if anybody hadn't heard yet, Dan McClellan, who if you don't follow Dan McClellan is an excellent scholar, announced that he and Monty Mater and and a few other folks are trying to put together a deconstructed con sometime next fall. And they're looking for feedback. So if you go to his link tree, he wants they want to make it something that would be interesting for all of us. So go ahead and put in some feedback there. think going back to that Christian language Leigh that you that you said you know this is where I think that conservative Christians and you know this is this is the the the the beauty of what they did they they took and I used to be one but they took messaging they made it simple easy to digest easy to repeat and I think Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yes. Alexis Rice: you can see That this is how we were trained. by the way, it's going to be in a spirit of like fear as well. So, like you, it's there's like an intensity to it. But think of like we're in three different states. And if I say, love the sinner, hate the sin, you've heard that before. If I say the Lord put it on my heart, you've heard that before. Right. Like there's all these Christian dog whistles. Like, I don't know if you saw the thing that that Trump put out. But he had all these dog whistle words in there. Like he even used the words like supper, which to me, like supper, I was like, that word is for conservative Christians because he was trying to argue that God had like put him on earth for this moment. This was this week. And I read that and I heard all these words that were in there. And that is like in the culture. And so unless progressive Christians are. Also finding ways to speak to Christians, whether they're Republican, Democrat in the middle. there's no like there's a feeling that there's no Christianity over there or that or that there's hostility. Where we actually know from Pew Research that in 2024, over half the people, over half of us who voted for Kabala are Christians. Over half, right? That's millions and millions of people that we are Christian and we vote blue. Because of our Christian convictions that might be about the earth, that might be about climate, that might be about women's rights, that might be about wanting to help immigrants take care of the poor, like whatever those might be. But we need to get better at messaging and being more cohesive on our side. And I know that's hard because we have a bigger tent that is more diverse. but I do think there's some great leaders. I wanted to ask you both, like, who are some great leaders anywhere? Politics, Faith, who are some of the people that you are inspired by right now by the work that they're doing to give language to Christianity on the democratic side? Carter Brown: I mean James, did you say women or anybody? Okay. Alexis Rice: Anybody. Carter Brown: I mean, James Talarico came to mind, but I also like, there's also the way that he speaks that conservative Christians are gonna be like, uh-uh, like you you still don't got it right. You're not a real Christian. So it's it's like I I'm I don't know if it like speaking Christianese is needed, but also like when you leave that type like speaking Christianese to me like feels like so wrong, you know? Like Alexis Rice: Mm. Carter Brown: I'm like, yes, I feel led by God to where I'm at, but like I'm also gonna call it my intuition. I'm also gonna call it my future self or my higher self. And like that to people thinks that they think I'm like under some sort of like spiritual warfare. because I say it like that now. But it's because I'm so disconnected from the dangerous dogma that comes from, you know, like the Lord laid on my heart that I needed to do this and question these have these questions. And I'm like, but that's just like not how it happened, you know? And so like the disconnect is a lot of these people, women especially f and men, but like they feel like I am under some sort of like satanic delusion. And so they're Alexis Rice: Yes. Carter Brown: not gonna consider anything that I have to say that I because the the the way to keep you in a box is so strong. Like d don't ask questions because if you ask questions, your faith isn't that strong. If you ask questions, you're potentially opening yourself up to, you know, demonic oppression and spiritual warfare. And like those threats are real. And so, you know, I I mean, I remember trying to have conversations with people about astrology, and they're like, that is so wrong. Like, Satan is going to like overtake you for being interested in something like that. And I'm like, okay, but like, what do you mean? Astrology is just a studying of patterns, like over the course of history. Like, what do you mean there's something demonic about that? You know? And it just takes like one little thing for someone to begin to question on that opens the floodgates for other things to begin to be critically thought on. And so I I I wanna say that like it's more that I think women need to be trusting their intuition more and not think that you're leaning on your own understanding because like What made me yeah, yeah, yeah. Alexis Rice: There's another one. Carter Brown: But like what made me really start to distinguish that this isn't like God talking to me because I was having these like I know I'm going off on a tangent, but like I was having these like realizing I was like having thoughts that I said were God telling me something was about to happen, like when I would be pregnant with both of my children. Like very weirdly I heard after December you'll be pregnant or by December you'll be pregnant. And I'm like, that's weird. I'm not even I'm not even married. First off, I'm not even engaged, but I'm gonna be pregnant by December of this year. Okay. I was pregnant by the end of November. And then Alexis Rice: Wow. Carter Brown: when I started praying about having my second child, I had had a miscarriage. And so I was like, what's going on? Like, you know, when's this baby coming? Alexis Rice: Sorry. Carter Brown: God. And God basically I heard was like after Colorado, after Colorado. And this was like March and April of this year. And I was going to Colorado in July. And so I was like, okay, I can manage this. Like, okay. I took a pregnancy test the week we got back from that trip and I was pregnant. So I was like, okay, I'm hearing things. from God, my own tuition, whatever it is, and like it's truth. It's something that I can cling to as like hope and certainty. And I like took it a step further. I'm like, okay, I'm hearing things that are even innocuous, things that, you know, aren't that life changing. Like I give this example. This is always the example, but like I was playing outside with my kids. They took their jacket off. I had the thought, go pick up the jacket, go put it inside. And I'm like, I'm in the middle of playing with my kids outside. Why do I why would I go and grab the jacket to go put it inside? Well, we finish playing, we go inside, I forget to grab the jackets and it unexpectedly rains. And I'm like, man, if I would have just listened to that thought, that would have like really helped me out a little bit. You know, now I we we can leave, we can't leave the house because they don't have a jacket that's you know dry to leave the house. And so I started. Started to want to like hone in on that. And so for me, I started to speak truth over the negativity that I would hear in my own mind. And so this is how I was able to wake up. And I feel like if this can be a blueprint for other people to start trusting themselves, especially women and our intuition, like we have discernment on lock, and we need to start trusting that and leaning upon that, even though it might be different than what we were taught to believe. Alexis Rice: So excited you brought that up because I think what you're getting at is really important for people who were raised in evangelical, conservative evangelical frameworks. By the way, just throwing it out there. it is a niche around the world. If you look at Christianity, there's two billion of us on the planet, over 45,000 denominations. We do things very differently. So American conservative evangelical fundamentalism in its current form is a tradition. But I think what's important that you said is what it taught us is the obviously like the solo scriptura thing. You trust the Bible, you don't trust yourself or your intuition. This is where the Episcopal and the United Method Methodist traditions really helped me when I found out because now I go to an Episcopal Progressive women led open and affirming church. It's tiny and it's fabulous. and they have the episcopal three-legged stool, right? Which means scripture is one of the pegs of their faith, but then tradition and reason. Okay, so they rely on these three three things equally. The Wesleyan quadrilateral in Methodism, in the Methodist church tradition, is scripture, tradition, reason, and experience. Right. So So scripture is primary, sure, but like the other three, you are supposed to bring in your experience, your reason, tradition, your knowledge. And that is a faithful way of being Christian. And I just think that what was really painful to me is thinking about all that time that I lost as a Christian trying to be a good Christian girl, not listening to myself, my experience, my reasoning, my intuition. Because it was different from quote, theirs and they had the Bible and they had God. And if it was different than mine, then like I must be wrong. And I actually think this is why there is such a strong pipeline from evangelical fundamentalism straight to atheism, because there's a binary there that they set up that is not in other traditions as strongly. Because evangelical structures told us you are all in, you are all on fire for God, or you're out, right? And they did. They kicked us. They kicked, Carter Brown: Mm-hmm. You can't be lukewarm. Alexis Rice: you can't be a lukewarm Christian, you can't be a CEC Christian, a Christian Easter Christian. And also, by the way, like if you are a little bit too far out and they stop praying for you, now the name calling starts. What are the names, guys? Heretic, wolf in sheep's clothing, blasphemous, progressive, Satan, all this stuff. Like this is really abusive stuff. And there are millions of people right now in this country, I think, who are carrying around this grief, who feel like they were kicked out of these church spaces or left and they're still being kind of demonized by their family when they feel like they followed Jesus right out of church, but they don't have the language for it. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I I just wrote that down. It might be a maybe that's just what Carter Brown: That was good. Leigh/@followtheleighder: we do is we just start posting quote graphics. It's like you can be a lukewarm Christian. It's fine. Like it's fine. Alexis Rice: I love it. Carter Brown: Yeah. Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Like Yeah. Carter Brown: Like why would God be mad at you for like living your life? Leigh/@followtheleighder: Like Why we gotta God gives you a brain, it's like, mm, you're gonna question some things and it's like, Carter Brown: That's honestly one reason why I stopped going to church right now. Like I needed a break. I've gone to church for three and a half decades. I found a great progressive church. Vinings Lake Church, if you're in the metro Atlanta area, it's incredible. But I realized I was still like having this like dread on Saturdays of like this requirement that I felt like I had to do. And like, you know what? I'm taking a sabbatical from church right now. And you know who else does that? Pastors do that. Other like high, higher up Christian men and and women, they take sabbaticals, they take breaks. Why can't I, an average person, take a break from something that I've been immersed in for three and a half decades to maybe like find Do I want to find somewhere else to have my church? Because who said it has to be in a room that, you know, where a projector is displaying words and and singing a song? Like I can go and be in church in fellowship with other people and serving and being in nature and volunteering and doing all these different things. Like, why is it somewhere that a a an offering basket is being passed? It doesn't have to look like the, you know, you can still be a Christian and and be all these other things. Like you don't have to be trying to fulfill something that honestly is like not fulfilling, if I'm being completely honest with you. Leigh/@followtheleighder: It's also cool because then you start because then you come we talk about coming right back around, right? You come back to the scripture because you want to start arguing with people better. Or I Carter Brown: Mm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: was laughing with someone the other day about how it was like, listen, if the feminists take over the red tent concept and we swap like swap that to like a four seasons women's empowered, like menstrual center spa, I don't know. I don't know it's a bad idea anymore, guys. But I think it's in context of who is managing and and and you know has the power of authority there. But just like just like these little funny things that I'm like, we could flip this and it could be cool. Like, Carter Brown: Yeah. Alexis Rice: What are you thinking, Leigh? Leigh/@followtheleighder: just I just I don't there's just so many fun and then also like the I'm writing my I wrote my master's thesis on Christian nationalism and US military chaplaincy. I'm expanding it into a book currently. But I'm kind of wrestling now because the first chunk, if you've ever written a book, it's like, at least for me, I wanted to make sure maybe it's a woman thing, whatever, but the book itself was like all facts, cited all of it. And I looked at it and I was like, This is way too clinical. Like I gotta make this more of a memoir, I gotta make this more me, like I gotta really put myself into this. And I've been really like wrestling with that and I was and then it just and then because it became more me, I got to have more fun with it. Fun in a very dark book, by the way. But having fun meaning bringing more of like what I wanted to see and one of those things was reclaiming Joan of Arc as a Carter Brown: Mm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: chaplain, as an unofficial chaplain who was discarded and burned by the state. But like yes, she did w some battles hold the sword, but she mainly hold held the white banner for Christ. And went out to the battlefield, like shared her vision, shared her hope, faith with her soldiers, and then went out. That's that's a chat. I mean, like, that's cool. And like, just how can we can just again like taking back, like, not just because it's what's needed right now in this moment, but because the movement of Jesus at the beginnings was women's led and people's led. Like this. Alexis Rice: Mm-hmm. That's right. Carter Brown: Mm. Well, I was just watching a a video talking about King James Bible and how you know he removed all these great, you know, the stories about the women and all that. And so like I think if we can educate on that to be like, hey, like, because that's what helped me was kind of letting the house of cards fall was factually and historically realizing that hell is a man-made concept. And that is what made the House of Cards fall for me. And so I think it's more like, hey, like how do we figure out how to educate and be like, hey, like we're being taught a version of history that has altered it. And is being used to control you in a way that you don't even realize the detriment and harm that it's causing you until it's too late, until it's affecting you personally or someone you know in your life. Alexis Rice: Thinking about I've been very interested in how pastors, evangelical pastors who go to ecumenical seminaries, universities, their brains are broken. And so it's been really interesting to hear from pastors, really highly educated people. Like they they come for the first time to this space where there's all different denominations, right? And it's it's it's highly you know, theoretical, but it it does break a lot of brains if they were only. open and and basically knew about evangelical fundamentalism, right? And what I hear from them is some of them can't do it. They can't hack it and they and they double down, they leave, they become more conservative pastors. Sure, that's fine. But a lot of them when they start to listen to the experiences of other Christians, it helps them. So an example of this that I love is when I went to theology beer camp many years ago and Adam Clark got on the stage and he was raised Episcopalian. And he said when he went to seminary, there were evangelicals who were saying, well, when did you get saved? And he was like, What? What are you talking about? And it was like, Yeah, when how did you get saved? When did you get saved? When when did you save the sinner's prayer? And he's like, We don't do that. What are you talking about? And the evangelicals were like, What do you mean? And then you start having these conversations and go, wait, the sinner's prayer was a construct that was invented in the United States and like really only made popular in the early 1900s. Do we think all Christians around the world before that aren't saved? No, but that doesn't mean that our faith isn't valid. That doesn't mean that Christianity is not incredible. It just means that we need to open our minds to go, how do other Christians believe? And so I think that we need to also take back the word deconstruction from the people who really know nothing about it. All they want to do is continue to demonize and fear it. Deconstruction is a process where you start looking at what was I taught. By who about my faith? And then what are the other voices within this faith that I can listen to? How can I broaden my worldview so that I am listening to liberation theologians, womanist theologians, right? Queer theologians. And that doesn't mean that you're going to end up in the same place. That is the beauty of deconstruction. And those of us who have been in it in a long time have a lot of grace for people who are willing to wrestle. And some people are gonna end up saying, I don't have a faith, I don't believe in God. And we understand and have space for that. There are others that are in other faith, and there are others that are in other traditions. Some stay evangelical, but mostly not. And I do think that is the big fear of evangelicals, why they're demonizing it, because it is true. Once you start deconstructing, probably ain't gonna stay and be tithing in that particular tradition anymore. Leigh/@followtheleighder: No, and this is we're kind of coming up on time, but I do want to drop an idea for another talk. So like we we spent a lot of time talking about faith. Like Christ progressive Christians talk reclaiming faith language. I would be interested in coming together with the three two of you again to talk about that that socialist capitalist language too is deeply in tied intertwined. Like on on both sides. And so it would be a really fascinating to like but that that's a full conversation. That that and the last Carter Brown: No, yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: five minutes of them like, and by the way, and we do that economically as well. And like Carter Brown: Ha ha ha. Leigh/@followtheleighder: but I I kinda wanna Carter, you've been talking about like the last like year for you being really empowering as you're finding your voice, as you're looking ahead at the midterms, you know. You've got this platform that you're building. What are you hoping that your audience is is is hearing and and and what they're planning to do going into the fall midterms? Carter Brown: Hm, well, majority of my audience are people that already subscribe to the beliefs that I hold. So people think that I had my account prior to deconstructing and that a lot of the people that follow me are opposing views and those sadly were weeded out last year. sorry, my dog is barking like incessantly and it is distracting the ever-living shit out of me now. Alexis Rice: Ha ha ha. Carter Brown: Okay, can you how I feel can you repeat the question again? Sorry. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, just like what are you hoping that your followers do for the midterms? Carter Brown: So vote for one. Alexis Rice: Mm-hmm. Carter Brown: and you know, hold at least five people in your life accountable on the day of elections to be like, Hey, have you gone to vote? Are you going to vote? You like throughout the day check in. Like, I mean, I'm gonna have to do that with my own husband, you know? And like, Hey, have you gone yet? You know? And I think, you know, if we can hold that in our own hands and take accountability where we can, because yes, there's only so much that we can do leading up to this. That's what I was saying to you all about, I think, before we hit record is like, I think a lot of us are just like waiting to see what happens in November to be like, okay, so what's next? Like, where do we go from here? to see if like we're attacking this through legislation or, you know, whatever other option we have af after that. I don't know. But I think, you know, the The purpose of my account was to pull myself out of my depression, talking about the content that I am. And I did that. It was instantaneous. I was no longer depressed, opening my mouth. And what I've realized is that I'm not an outlier in that, and that that healing happens for other people who be authentic. Start sharing your story, sharing what you're going through, doing the deep soul work that you need to do. What trauma have you been ignoring your entire life that is manifesting? In other ways in your life. Like deconstruction is not only for one side of the aisle or one belief system. Deconstruction Alexis Rice: Mm-hmm. Carter Brown: is for everybody. and that soul work, which is something that we talked about at the conference that I was at, is like that is how we get our utopia. Legislation and the soul work that each person needs to do. And so I hope that. That is what comes from me continuing to open my mouth by sharing what I'm going through and the ripple effect that can come from that. And like my long term goal for my account is like having spaces where people do open their mouths and share what they're going through and having finding commonality within our humanness because we all like and that's what people are are so surprised by me is like they're like, Wow, I can't believe you were ever MAGA, you know? And it's like, yeah, not all of us are these outwardly horrible human beings. And there is something humanistic to Leigh/@followtheleighder: yeah. Carter Brown: us and that we have the ability to change. And I I also want people to know that people are not gonna change the way that I have, how quickly I have over the last year. Like I have willingly taken deconstruction as like a fire hose to the face because it It was it was a dopamine hit, honestly. You know, where else have I gotten wrong? As a conspiracy theorist, I was like, this is so crazy. I'm learning all this new stuff and it's sad and it's painful and I'm grieving, but I'm also so thankful because my mind is finally free. I might not feel free because not all of us in our country are free. And then Alexis Rice: Mm-hmm. Carter Brown: I but my mind is finally free. I didn't feel like I was free beforehand. I was so anxious before. And now overcoming my negative self-talk, I am no longer that person anymore. And so I know that negative self-talk isn't something that only evangelical Christians suffer from. So if I can help have other people overcome that. that you know they're already having the belief system that we all want other Christians to have. This is how we we get the utopia is working on the shit that we all need to work. Leigh/@followtheleighder: to hear Alexis, you are such a mover and shaker connecting. And every time I'm online, I'm like, how does she know that person? And I I it Hey, you're living in the year 3000. So talk to us. Talk talk to us. I mean you've got you've got a lot going on as you're kind of working the back scenes and and behind the scenes. Talk to us. Next six months looking ahead at midterms. Looking ahead at the fall, what's what's on your plate? What are you hoping that people pay attention to? Alexis Rice: yeah. a few things. One, I I need to build bookshelves and turn this around because like this is like I just don't have space for all my authors anymore. And it's just it's flying. So if anybody knows a production team that wants to help me out, I have no more manpower left in me for like I have two children and I love them so much and I need to take care of them as well. so I I think that what is exciting. Is that I want to encourage people who are people of faith who are outside of conservative evangelical fundamentalism in the United States to feel free to be who they are in their identity in Christ as a liberal, you know, and to raise their voice on social media. I also really want to continue to encourage progressive pastors. And this has been quite a challenge. And now I understand why. I was like, why aren't progressive pastors, they have PhDs? They are some of the most brilliant people I've ever met. Like, why aren't they on social media by the hordes, like we see in an ev evangelicalism, which I believe we're being outspent by like 500 times in terms of like you count for just like conservative Christian content? And so that is where I see that things really need to change. So my hope. Is that there is a massive structure of millionaires and billionaires that are on the progressive side that want to help fund progressive pastors, content leaders, and media infrastructure, create media infrastructure on the progressive Christian side so that we can allow more voices to be heard, to be shared, and so that people who were like us at some point are able to maybe encounter us. online when they might be in a community where everybody's telling them this is wrong, this is not faithful. You can't listen to those demon demon crats, demon rats, or whatever they call them. is like, no, like I'm a Christian. We're all Christians here. We love Jesus and we're liberals and we're proud of it. And that's how I feel. I I'm sorry, I'll say that to my I'll say it about myself. I am a Christian I'm a flaming liberal. I'm even like a socialist on many ways. I'm married to a European. I lived in Europe for many years. We will have that conversation. I just interviewed the Bishop of Iceland. They're in a socialist country. I told them that socialism is, I told her that the socialism is like a bad word in the United States for Christian. And she just jaw drop. I love making people's jaw drops from all angles. So it's encouraging progressive pastors to get out of their bubbles and get vocal. Because I think that ex-evangelicals and progressive pastors are the secret weapons against Christian nationalism right now. Because we know, we know the ins and outs of this right now. We know about the Seven Mountains mandate, and we used to subscribe to some of this stuff. And now we understand the harm. Right. So, wherever that leads me, I'll be listening to the Holy Spirit, to my body, to other people around the world, to you women who are incredible. And I hope to inspire something beautiful out of this movement. Yeah. Carter Brown: You're incredible. Alexis Rice: You're incredible. Carter Brown: Like seriously. I'm blown away by you. Like you're just like, Leigh/@followtheleighder: This is Carter Brown: you know everyone you're Alexis Rice: I was a cheerleader in high school, so this is just like like I'm just getting right excited. Carter Brown: well, you're doing exactly what you're supposed to do. So I mean, truly like and that was what that summit that I was at. There were it was like groups of visionaries and like the strategists and like the people that have direction. And that's not me. But that's you for sure. Like for sure. So it but like you're both. I think you have the vision and the strategy. And so like you're just an absolute like Just God sends. So we're very, very thankful for you facilitating this and like, you know, having this. So thank you. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, thank you. Alexis Rice: I think this is gonna be the first of maybe a little mini series with us. Leigh, I would love to he I am gonna hear from you though. I wanna hear from you though too. Carter Brown: Yeah, I would love that. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, that'd be fun. That's what I'm saying. Like this this is like Carter Brown: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: just do the retreat now. Just have you both come up. Like let's just put the camera down. And Alexis Rice: Yeah. Sounds good. It's gonna be great. Leigh/@followtheleighder: you know, next six months, so I am hyper focused. I submitted my book proposal to publishers or sorry, agents about military chaplaincy and US military chaplain. No, Alexis Rice: Mm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: sorry, Christian nationalism, Carter Brown: That's awesome. Leigh/@followtheleighder: US military chaplaincy. It sounds super I like I said, I really had to wrestle with it because I wrote it for a progressive theology, you know, seminary, which of course, but considering the American landscape, I had to pull it a little bit more libertarian, and and really look at like how this is egregious to our freedoms, not just the harm to the marginalized that it's causing, because unfortunately, that harm language isn't Always gonna be the thing that resonates. It's gonna be freedoms. It's gonna be that. So Alexis Rice: Yes. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I am currently I'm also wrestling with a chapter that I've ironically punily called in good faith, where I do do a deep dive. And Carter, I'd probably reach out to you as a ex MAGA, where it's a very sympathetic, compassionate look at why the factors come into this perspective where it's it's it's in good faith. Like how did you get here? And and like you believe you're a good guy, right? Like you like in their Alexis Rice: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: minds, they think they're Captain America. So Carter Brown: Mm. Alexis Rice: Yes. Leigh/@followtheleighder: so but it's hard. It's a oppositional research is hard. Like it it'll put you in just like a it's very humanizing, right? It's like in in a way it's like sitting at a dining room. It's like sitt it's like being a fly on a wall and watching like Nazis have a family dinner and it's just like y it's like Alexis Rice: that that's very that hits close to home for a lot of us, I think. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. And so and then and so it's because I've just read too many of these Christian nationalist books that other them that don't take and and it's very and it's the same swing that you see MAGA and fundamentalists do with Democrats, like it's all bad, all demons don't do you know, there's no possible logic in infrastructures why they got to be that way. And it's like, no, actually there is a lot. There's there's a lot of logic. so that's what I'm focusing on. And then really turning to education online, like just trying to get people educated on history, policy, giving Carter Brown: Hm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: people language. I just and then this is a personal fun thing. this isn't really related to the ex NAT fight. I call it ex Nats because again, the left coming up with Christian nationalism, that's a terrible come up with a better phrase, like marbles in my mouth. Carter Brown: Hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: So I was like, I'm I call them ex gnats. So if you hear that from me, I'm like these fucking ex gnats. I sorry. Kat's like, yeah, I agree. But Alexis Rice: Your cat carter, by the way. So cute. What a cute black and white kitty. Carter Brown: I know. Hi. Hi. He's like, let me out of here. Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: but but yeah, so I just launched a new Sunday series. It's a sub stack series called The Waypoint, where I infuse scripture tarot zodiac and a powerful woman of religion or history. And I also Carter Brown: Whoa. Leigh/@followtheleighder: do the the lun I can send you the yeah, it just launched. and it ties in the lunar seasons and it's kind of basically everything I was doing back in my early ministry days, but I'm just focusing it now on this on inspiring women instead of the story of Jesus. Like every Sunday is a we're learning about what a woman and from history did and what we could glean from that. And then it ties into Carter Brown: Very cool. Leigh/@followtheleighder: the lunar. calendar and the seasons. I you know, we're going into we just had a new moon. What do we need to set our intentions for? Like it's like it just I just decided Alexis Rice: I'm so excited to read that. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I just Carter Brown: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: decided I was gonna be me. Like I was like if I was gonna start a church tomorrow, what would I do? And I was just like, well I'd probably it'd probably be pretty chill. Carter Brown: Wait, I love that. Well wait, that just reminded me of something that I was gonna say when Alexis was talking. It's like, so when I began my deconstruction and like questioning things and like questioning the validity of like the Bible and all this, I was like, Okay, what would the first century Christians do? How would they live their life? They didn't have the Bible, you know? They were Leaning upon what they just witnessed by living with Jesus and that. And so that is how I got to where I'm at: is like, okay, how would a first century Christian look at all of this? How would they view left and right? Where would they line? What would they do? Who would they break bread with? And it was like very obvious to me that it was not the conservative right. Alexis Rice: I I can't not recommend a book because it's just impossible. but for Carter Brown: I love books. Alexis Rice: that specific one, there is one called that's written by a group of scholars after Jesus before Christianity, a historical exploration for the first two centuries. and it Carter Brown: I love that. Alexis Rice: was very specifically everything we know from scholars before the year 300, I believe. and so that's like it's it was mind-changing. It was like amazing for me. So I'm gonna leave you with that book today. Carter Brown: That's so good, yes. Cause like again, like having the books and like the research and having, you know, being like, okay, am I nuts? But like, no, this is like factual history here. I'm not gonna like negate that, even though it goes against what I've been told, you know? So it's like something you have to wrestle. It's cognitive dissonance. It's very uncomfortable. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. The end of the day, it really is like to thine own self be true. Like it is like you and God and like getting that squared. And I think that's what's really so important for us as women to continue to liberate ourselves to have that personal relationship with God and what Jesus means to us. That it can't be what an institution said, like this is this is that into intuition you're talking about. That how is that not godly? You know, like how can so Carter Brown: Someone was speaking truth to me. It w you know, like w and I don't think it was Satan, so Leigh/@followtheleighder: The k no. Carter Brown: Ha ha Leigh/@followtheleighder: But this has been absolutely fantastic. Alexis, can you please share your how can folks follow you? Alexis Rice: Yeah, so I just, this is the first time I'm gonna say it. I just launched thesacred slope dot com. And that is a website that you can go in and see all the guests I've ever had and then search by topic and it will pull up all of the conversations. That I think there's like 6,000 clips now of guests around the world, including Leigh, is on there. and so you can put in Leigh, for example, and then find out all the different things that we had. So I would start there. I am on all the socials except for X. I used to work at Twitter back in the days in San Francisco. that's a whole other thing. But Leigh/@followtheleighder: yeah. Alexis Rice: yeah, so I am on all the socials and then I have a substack where I talk about world travels. I've been to over 30 countries, so lived in a few countries in Europe and so talk about world travels and how I have seen Jesus through others outside of the United States. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Carter, what about you? How can I how can these listeners get to know the Carter Brown? Carter Brown: Instagram and TikTok at this is Carter Brown. this is Carter Leigh/@followtheleighder: This is Carter Brown. Carter Brown: Brown. and then I think, yeah, my substack is growth is a spiral. I've been like writing so much, but I'm like hesitant to like put it out. I've been saying all year. I'm like, yeah, just wait, just wait. And then like something happens in my personal life where I'm just like scared to bear my soul like that and you know, share what's going on. But like I write pretty much every day. I no, I'm gonna write a book one day and just brain dumping all of that. Yeah. I mean it's some days it feels like I'm like, this is a literal page in my book, like this is nuts, like how my life is falling. into pieces the way that it is. But very thankful for the journey. And but yeah, I I just talk about my deconstruction journey from evangelical Christianity, MAGA, patriarchy, capitalism, like anything and everything. And also like how I juggle, you know, still aligning with different things and where I'm at with that and how I I am faced with, you know, my old programming with the new and so it's just it's an interesting journey and it's an inside look that I don't think most people really had before. So Alexis Rice: Hmm. Well we as women Leigh/@followtheleighder: So the Alexis Rice: support you and are all here for you. We gotta support each other in Carter Brown: Thank you. I appreciate it. Alexis Rice: this time. Carter Brown: Yeah, for sure. Especially if we want that matriarchy. I mean, that's the only way that's gonna happen, so Alexis Rice: Amen. Thank you, Leigh. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Y'all have been fantastic guests. Carter Brown: Yeah, thank you, Leigh. Leigh/@followtheleighder: For those who have listening, please leave your comments. let us know if you have any questions for the next call, the next conversation, you have any topics you want us to cover, we would love to hear from you. And while you're in there, don't forget to like, follow, subscribe. You know the drill. This has been another episode of Follow the Leader. I'm your host, Leigh Larson, and until next time, see ya.