Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / HORROR 911 AUDIO OF TRAIN-STAB VICTIM REVEAL IRYNA’S FINAL MOMENTS, ‘BLOODY & HOPELESS’

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HORROR 911 AUDIO OF TRAIN-STAB VICTIM REVEAL IRYNA’S FINAL MOMENTS, ‘BLOODY & HOPELESS’ · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace the Horror nine to one
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: one audio uh the train stabbing victim Irena reveals her
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: final desperate moments and what is described by witnesses as
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: a bloody and hopeless scene. Can anybody say death penalty?
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: I Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. I want to
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: thank you.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: For being with us one shire a Mining.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Why did Irena have to die stabbed dead on public transportation?
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: You said, a mail down for no re event at
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: any minute, the community still reeling.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Now, what makes this murder different from other murders. I'm
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: about to play you that newly released to audio, and
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: I've got to warn you up front, it's very, very disturbing.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: Straight out to veteran trial lawyer who represents a lot
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: of high profile clients. Randy Kessler, h Emory Law School professor,
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: former chair ABA Family Law Section, author of Divorce, Protect Yourself,
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: Your Kids, in your Future. Kessler, this case is a
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: death penalty case because the aggravating circumstance is the murder,
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: according to the state, occurred on mass transit in a nutshell. Okay,
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: you're not delivering a speech the ABA. Why is that
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: an aggravating circumstance, Randy Kessler.
• 1:57
  Speaker 4: That's all they need to surpass the threshold. And in
• 2:00
  Speaker 4: the law they're allowed to ask for the death penalty
• 2:02
  Speaker 4: because it's on public transportation. But the sympathetic factor. Nobody
• 2:06
  Speaker 4: wants this guy around. They're going to get a good
• 2:08
  Speaker 4: shot at the death penalty. All they needed was the
• 2:10
  Speaker 4: avenue to get in. They've got it because it's public
• 2:11
  Speaker 4: transportation that authorizes the death penalty.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: Ass Okay, you do know what you just did right
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: put Kessler up. That is not working. I said, why
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: is it a death penalty because it's on mass transit?
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: And you say, like three times, it's death penalty because
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: it's on mass transit. That's not an answer. You just
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: regurgitated my question. But you did it beautifully. And now
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: I see why you win so many cases and snow
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: appellate court judges. I hope they're not watching right now
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: for your sake. Mass transit killings are dp death penalty
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: because much like a titular murder where a governor or
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: a senator or a president a judge is killed, it's
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: not just the individual, it's what they represent. That's why
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: that or police officer, that's why those are death penalty cases.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: This is a am I actually quean ang with myself Castler.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: This is a death penalty case mass transit because it's
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: what it represents, mass transmit government. It's going to get
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: on a bus or a train. If this guy's walking
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: free with a bloody knife, well that's the reason.
• 3:25
  Speaker 5: For the death penalty.
• 3:25
  Speaker 4: You want to find the case is where a death
• 3:27
  Speaker 4: penalty is really going to have a chilling effect.
• 3:28
  Speaker 5: Hopefully it's going to scare other people.
• 3:30
  Speaker 4: But the problem is Nancy, nobody's going to not kill
• 3:33
  Speaker 4: somebody because they might get death instead of life in prison.
• 3:36
  Speaker 5: To me, it should be death penalty because we jury
• 3:38
  Speaker 5: wants it.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: Really because I don't want old Sparky, I don't want
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: the needle and now the firing squad. Well, long story short,
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: that is why this is a death penalty case. Because
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: Arenna was murdered on mass transit, which is an arm
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: of the government, and there's a renner right now, and
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: because calls it creates chaos when citizens are afraid to
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: step on a bus. Kay us. That is why this
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: is a death penalty case. But I want to get back.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: This is something that Kessler loves and hates when a
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: nine to one one audio is played in front of
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: a jury, Why do you hate that so much? Kessler?
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: Because I love it and they say it.
• 4:27
  Speaker 4: Picture's worth a thousand words and audio is worth ten
• 4:29
  Speaker 4: thousand words. There's no way to unring that bill period.
• 4:32
  Speaker 4: Jury hears that, that equals conviction.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: Let's take a listen and see if he's righter.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: One police firemed.
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: You said a mail stoutsand the one for no reason
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: did a need.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: Greater Medican County Fire? What is the address for the emergency?
• 4:59
  Speaker 5: What is this?
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Kessler, you're right, this man calling nine one one
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: what he observed makes a grown man cry. He's crying, Kessler,
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: How do you think the jury's going to react to that?
• 5:20
  Speaker 4: He is the jury. The jury sees themselves in him.
• 5:23
  Speaker 4: That's the that's the whole point of the audio. You
• 5:25
  Speaker 4: can sympathize, empathize, whatever the word is. You see yourself
• 5:29
  Speaker 4: and you don't ever want to be in his position.
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: You don't ever want to witness that. You don't even
• 5:32
  Speaker 4: want to experience it, and you don't want to love
• 5:34
  Speaker 4: when to experience it, and you feel it, it's emotionally draining.
• 5:37
  Speaker 4: It hits you right here, that's that's a conviction. That
• 5:41
  Speaker 4: audio equals conviction.
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: To me, I want to hear that one. I'm going
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: to go to the next, the next nine on one,
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: but I want to hear that one more time. We're
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: hearing a grown man witness breaking down in tears over
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: what just happened to Irena. Listen, carlon nine.
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: One one police triremited.
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: He said a Mailstown was the one for no reason?
• 6:08
  Speaker 5: Did any.
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: Greater Medican County fire? What is the address of the emergency?
• 6:19
  Speaker 6: What is this?
• 6:21
  Speaker 7: We'll train stay.
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: With me a renowned forensic psychologist, TV radio trauma expert consultant.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: It's Karen Stark at Karenstark dot com. Karen, thank you
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: for being with us. The man is in tears. The
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: man is crying, and he says I was standing right
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: beside her. He's going to have those nightmares the rest
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: of his life. Without a doubt.
• 6:49
  Speaker 8: Nancy got trauma, terrible trauma, because just imagine I want
• 6:54
  Speaker 8: everyone to imagine being there on a train, innocently going
• 6:59
  Speaker 8: wherever you're going, and then you see somebody being slept
• 7:04
  Speaker 8: for no reason.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: No stars. Look, Karen, Karen Stark, do you see the video?
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: The guy is walking around here. He is, he's about
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: to stand up. He's fumbling in his pocket for his knife.
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: Plenty of time to form intent. You see what's on
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: the do you see what's on the floor. He's wandering
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: around with a knife, dripping with blood. I guess the
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: nine on one callar is traumatized, Karen Stark, without a doubt.
• 7:34
  Speaker 8: Absolutely, Nancy.
• 7:35
  Speaker 5: How could you not be?
• 7:37
  Speaker 8: I think everyone who witnessed that would be traumatized. How
• 7:40
  Speaker 8: many people see something like that instantly riding on a train?
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: Hopefully none. Guys, we have just obtained the newly released
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: nine to one one calls.
• 7:53
  Speaker 9: Listen right now on the ground with a lot of blood,
• 7:57
  Speaker 9: and everybody's singing that you got And I don't know
• 7:59
  Speaker 9: if anybody.
• 8:01
  Speaker 10: People are freaking out.
• 8:03
  Speaker 7: I want to do some more information.
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she's on the train.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: She's on the train.
• 8:12
  Speaker 9: She's on the ground right now. There's people around her
• 8:15
  Speaker 9: right now. I think they're holding pressure. On this site.
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of luck joining us doctor Thomas Coin,
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: chief Medical Examiner District to Medical Examiner's Office, State of Florida,
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: and never like a business there pathologists to psychologists and neuropathologists.
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: It goes on and on, doctor Coin, thank you for
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: being with us. What what what are they trying? Medic
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: is trying to explain what's happening? What's happening?
• 8:43
  Speaker 10: Sure?
• 8:43
  Speaker 11: So, I mean from watching the horrible video, you can
• 8:46
  Speaker 11: see that the stab woom was likely to the next
• 8:50
  Speaker 11: just around the collarbone area, and in that area you have.
• 8:53
  Speaker 10: Several major arteries. If the blade is long enough, you could.
• 8:56
  Speaker 11: Certainly have cut the aorta or some of the branches
• 8:59
  Speaker 11: of or including the carotid artery. Those vessels carry blood
• 9:05
  Speaker 11: about a half a leader to three quarters of a
• 9:07
  Speaker 11: leader per minute, so if you can imagine, if that
• 9:09
  Speaker 11: vesseyl is cut, you can bleed out probably half of
• 9:12
  Speaker 11: your total blood volume in less than about a two
• 9:15
  Speaker 11: minute period. So what they're trying to do is put
• 9:18
  Speaker 11: pressure on that area, or at least the hopes they're
• 9:20
  Speaker 11: trying to put pressure on that area to stop the bleeding.
• 9:23
  Speaker 11: But very hard to put pressure on that area because
• 9:26
  Speaker 11: it's your neck the collarbones in the way, so it's
• 9:29
  Speaker 11: hard to actually stop the blood from splurting out. It's
• 9:31
  Speaker 11: a most times these wounds are fatal. It's almost impossible
• 9:36
  Speaker 11: to get this person to the hospital in time.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: You said, you can lose half your blood in less
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: than two minutes.
• 9:44
  Speaker 11: Yes, because blood flow here. These vessels carry blood at
• 9:48
  Speaker 11: high volume and fast rate, and so when you cut
• 9:51
  Speaker 11: that blood vessel, it will spurt out. Every time the
• 9:54
  Speaker 11: heart beats, blood will spurret out. And yes, you could
• 9:58
  Speaker 11: lose you know, a couple of liters of blolood within
• 10:00
  Speaker 11: a couple of minute.
• 10:01
  Speaker 10: Windows small, a very small window of time.
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: Guys, I want to hear the tone that the medic
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: has in the nine to one one call. Listen to
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: the medic.
• 10:12
  Speaker 9: There're just a lady right now on the ground with
• 10:13
  Speaker 9: a lot of blood, and everybody's screaming that she got stabbed.
• 10:17
  Speaker 9: And I don't know if anybody's called that one.
• 10:19
  Speaker 10: People are just freaking out.
• 10:21
  Speaker 7: I want to do some more information.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she's on the train.
• 10:28
  Speaker 9: She's on the train, she's on the ground right now.
• 10:31
  Speaker 9: There's people around her right now. I think they're holding
• 10:35
  Speaker 9: pressure on this website. There's a lot of blood.
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: In Doctor Thomas Coin, Uh, you're our only medical doctor today.
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: I hear resignation. I hear resignation. The medic's not going hurry, hurry, Harry,
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: get here for the hurry hurry, it's like she's on
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: the ground, she's she's a lot of blood. They know,
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: don't they, Doctor Coin Have you ever felt that when
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: you're trying your best to save a patient and you
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: know there's just nothing you can do, but you're trying anyway.
• 11:06
  Speaker 11: During my earlier early years of training, yeah, and especially
• 11:10
  Speaker 11: in the trauma centers of the hospital where you have
• 11:12
  Speaker 11: you know the injury is most likely fatal, but you're
• 11:15
  Speaker 11: doing everything you can just to keep that patient alive.
• 11:19
  Speaker 11: And when you have an injury like this and you've
• 11:21
  Speaker 11: lost so much blood, it's almost impossible to.
• 11:23
  Speaker 10: Get in there and repair it in time to save
• 11:26
  Speaker 10: the patient. It's just it's a horrible experience.
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: I know that all of the newly released nine on
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: one audio is upsetting, but to me, this one with
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: the medic made me the most upset, because you know,
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: when you're in a crisis situation, a lot of people,
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: including me, just power through it and it's only after
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: it's over that you think, oh, my stars, I nearly X,
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: or she nearly X was hit by car or fell
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: off the tree, or it's after it's over that you
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: have a sigh of relief. But here I hear the
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: resignation in the medic's voice.
• 12:16
  Speaker 9: Listen, lady right now on the ground with a lot
• 12:19
  Speaker 9: of blood, and everybody's bringing that she got stabbed. And
• 12:22
  Speaker 9: I don't know if anybody called that on one.
• 12:24
  Speaker 10: People are just freaking out. I want to information.
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she's on the train.
• 12:33
  Speaker 9: She's on the train, she's on the ground right now.
• 12:36
  Speaker 9: There's people around her right now. I think they're holding
• 12:40
  Speaker 9: pressure on this.
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: Blood, Karen start. That was the most upsetting part of
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: all the nine one one. We're about to play.
• 12:49
  Speaker 8: Well because you hear it in her voice when she sighs, Nancy.
• 12:54
  Speaker 8: But I also want to point out and watching that
• 12:56
  Speaker 8: video that Dwayne is suffering. It's not that he stabs
• 13:01
  Speaker 8: her and she doesn't know what's going on. You can
• 13:04
  Speaker 8: very clearly see the horror on her face, the pain
• 13:08
  Speaker 8: and the fact that she's suffering. Hold in her mouth
• 13:11
  Speaker 8: before she bawls down and ultimately done.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: You're right, Karen, she's looking down. She's looking down. She
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: looked down at her stab You're right, Karen, she's just oh,
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: she's dying right in front of us. Here's more of.
• 13:34
  Speaker 9: The nine on one calls the person who a little no,
• 13:39
  Speaker 9: I did not. We were on a different train park
• 13:41
  Speaker 9: down the road line and this is the very cloud
• 13:45
  Speaker 9: train car.
• 13:46
  Speaker 10: I think the person in the I believe.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: Confident that she got it.
• 14:00
  Speaker 12: I'm not.
• 14:01
  Speaker 9: There's a lot of people around her that they're all
• 14:03
  Speaker 9: saying the pupils are blown out and.
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: There's no back to Dodger Thomas Coin two things. What
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: does that mean, stabbed in the carotid and the pupils
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: are blown out. Whoever this is seems to have medical training.
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: What does that mean?
• 14:21
  Speaker 7: Yeah?
• 14:21
  Speaker 11: Sure, So the carotid artery is that is the main
• 14:24
  Speaker 11: artery that that supplies blood to our brain. So it
• 14:27
  Speaker 11: travels within our neck along the lateral sides of our neck.
• 14:31
  Speaker 11: It's where like you would feel your pulse if you
• 14:33
  Speaker 11: put your fingers on your neck. That that's the carotid artery.
• 14:36
  Speaker 5: Uh.
• 14:36
  Speaker 11: And it's one of the arteries that this certainly could
• 14:39
  Speaker 11: have cut in that area of her neck and it
• 14:41
  Speaker 11: will pump a high volume of blood out of the
• 14:44
  Speaker 11: body if cut. The pupils being blown just likely indicates
• 14:49
  Speaker 11: that she's lost normal neurologic function. I mean, as you
• 14:51
  Speaker 11: can imagine, if those arteries are cut, the blood supply
• 14:55
  Speaker 11: to her brain has been severed, and so within probably
• 14:58
  Speaker 11: less than a minute's time, her brain's not ating the
• 15:00
  Speaker 11: oxygen or blood flow it needs, and therefore, you know,
• 15:03
  Speaker 11: her brain's not being responsive. So our pupils are blown.
• 15:06
  Speaker 11: Her her cranial nerves and her brain stem are not
• 15:09
  Speaker 11: working like they should, and those just simply really speak
• 15:13
  Speaker 11: to her her dire situation.
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: Randy Kessler, a veteran trial lawyer out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Randy,
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: I know you're looking at the video right now. You
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: do see the suspect changing clothes, getting rid of his
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: bloody clothes. Isn't it true, Kessler, that the jury can
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: consider behavior before, during, and after the crime to determine guilt.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: The guys getting rid of his bloody clothes before he
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: steps off the train, that indicates he knows there'll be
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: a problem if it goes out on that platform covered
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: in blood.
• 15:56
  Speaker 4: Right, and personally, this probably goes more to the sentencing right.
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: Normal cases, at flight, if you're leaving a scene, you're
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: trying to get away. You're trying to escape, you're trying
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: to hide. That shows you did something wrong. You're trying
• 16:07
  Speaker 4: to get away. In this case, we know he didn't.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: We've got him generates E double L n oh. I
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: spelled it out for you. That can be used as evidence.
• 16:17
  Speaker 5: Of guilt, of course, But what I'm telling.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: You, generations it was actually a jury charge that the
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: generally give the jury. Somehow that defense bar got rid
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: of that, but the jury can consider that is evidence
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: of guilt. We're trying to get his bloody shirt. That's
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: not sentencing.
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: No, but you don't. You're right, Nancy, but you don't
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: leave with that. You don't leave with Look, he's covering
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: it up.
• 16:42
  Speaker 5: When you got a.
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: Video of him actually stabbing her, you don't need to
• 16:45
  Speaker 4: start with, Hey, he was trying to cover it up.
• 16:47
  Speaker 5: You got him dead to rights on the conviction.
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: That's going to go further to wasn't mentally insane, He
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: knew that what he did was wrong. Takes away the
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: insanity defense, takes away any excuse for why he did
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: this other than.
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: You drinking what I mean, what you drinking smoking? I
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: was gonna leave with guilty conscience. I leave with that
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: video and the nine one one calls. That's the state's
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: strongest evidence. I would go with the video that I'm
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: on calls, and then the witnesses, every single person sitting
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: in that tren car, even though they didn't help, which
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: they're going to get cross examined on. Yes, that's then
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: I bring on doctor Thomas Coin, and then I would
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: bring on Ron Bateman, and then I would bring on
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: Andy Kahn, and then I would bring on Susan Hendrick,
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: just like that. But evidence of guilty conscience that's the
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: last thing I bring on. But you darn right, I'll
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: bring it on.
• 17:41
  Speaker 4: Sure it is piling on, and it's icing on the cake.
• 17:43
  Speaker 4: It's extra, But really you don't need it. That's why
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: I think it goes more towards sentencing, because is there
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: a question that there's any reason why this guy should
• 17:51
  Speaker 4: be given any breaks. No, he knew what he did
• 17:54
  Speaker 4: was wrong. That's what that does for me. It doesn't help.
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: You don't need it for the conviction. I mean, sooner
• 17:59
  Speaker 4: or later it's gonna be over kill. You got him
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: dead's rights, he's guilty of the crime. Now what do
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: we do about it?
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: To death?
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: Because he knew he can't help himself. I can't, Kessler.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: I love it when defense attorney starts saying it's overkill.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: Stop you're piling on isn't it true? The state has
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: one swing at the ball. If there's an eng not guilty,
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: your technical legal phrase, screwed. You have one chance. Why
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: not put on all your evidence. When a defensive attorney
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: starts squealing and whining, overkill, piling on, that's when I
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: really dig in.
• 18:40
  Speaker 4: You can use it, you can add it. But again,
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: it's not my emphasis. The emphasis is on the act,
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: the actual crime. Sometimes you don't have the photographic or
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: the videographic evidence of the killing and the murder of
• 18:50
  Speaker 4: the crime, so that's more important. In this case, I'm
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: just saying it's much less important than actually what happened.
• 18:56
  Speaker 5: What happened is terrible, it's on video. He's done, he's convicted.
• 19:01
  Speaker 5: That is. It is overkill. It is extra sure you
• 19:04
  Speaker 5: use it, Nancy, throw it in there.
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: But I would say to the jury, we're gonna show
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: you this, but you don't really even need it because
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: you've already got enough to convict him.
• 19:11
  Speaker 5: But just in case there was any.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: Doubt, you're really not helping the defense right now. You
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: know that, right You're really not a helper for the defense.
• 19:19
  Speaker 5: I'm just trying to explain it for the audience.
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: I've got something for you, Kessler. All right, you ready,
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: I don't know more nine to one one. Let's take
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: a listen to the newly released audio man I play.
• 19:33
  Speaker 7: The girl might be there, man guy, there's no and
• 19:38
  Speaker 7: the guy over here on the round, Yeah, he's on
• 19:41
  Speaker 7: all the platform either he's a black male. You have
• 19:43
  Speaker 7: a dreadlog if you got a hand wrapped up in
• 19:45
  Speaker 7: a red ejected a black teacher because the.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: Player was hanging over team not anymore, he doesn't. Let's
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: see that video of him changing clothes. Crime stories with me.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: That's great to Susan Henry's joining US investigative journalist, author
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: of Down the Hill, My descend into the double murder
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: in Delphi. Susan, the nine woman caller another one of them.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: You know a lot of the people on the train,
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: which totally is totally reprehensible. They don't even try to
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: help her. They start videoing her dying. What a bunch
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: of googles. However, yeah, go on a video that I
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: guess he posted it. Long story short, Several people did
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: call nine one one, and this last call we played
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: describes the defendant. He was standing on the ramp. Now
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: he's on another platform. Dreadlocks. He's got his hand wrapped
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: in a red jacket because he cut his hand, a
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: black T shirt. He's got a Blue Jays, black T shirt,
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: hand wrapped up, dreads. We've got him on video changing
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: clothes and there he goes. Guys, this is newly released video,
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: and there he goes, walking off like nothing happened. Says
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: in Hendrix. What's happening in the video right here that
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: we're showing.
• 21:24
  Speaker 13: We're seeing the police move in on this guy and
• 21:28
  Speaker 13: make the arrest.
• 21:29
  Speaker 5: Nancy.
• 21:29
  Speaker 13: It's so disturbing. I watched that entire video this morning.
• 21:33
  Speaker 13: She was stepped quickly three times in the neck, and
• 21:35
  Speaker 13: you mentioned it earlier. That look of horror she's looking down,
• 21:39
  Speaker 13: probably is realizing what is happening to her. She's dying
• 21:42
  Speaker 13: before very eyes. What you're looking at now is the
• 21:44
  Speaker 13: police move in and that last nine one one call, Nancy.
• 21:48
  Speaker 13: You hear him say no police presence?
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: Where is everyone?
• 21:51
  Speaker 13: He's panicked too, and I believe she falls over and
• 21:55
  Speaker 13: dies before her very eyes on that video.
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: That is huge.
• 21:58
  Speaker 13: That of course is what the play in pork. But
• 22:00
  Speaker 13: you're looking at the arrest the video we just saw.
• 22:03
  Speaker 7: I think I'm here man, I pay. The girl might
• 22:06
  Speaker 7: be there man, the pied person, the guy over there's
• 22:09
  Speaker 7: no point represent and the guy that he's just standing
• 22:11
  Speaker 7: over here on the round. Yeah, he's on the other platform.
• 22:14
  Speaker 7: He's a black male dread loss. He got his hand
• 22:16
  Speaker 7: wrapped up in a red jacket, a black tea shirt
• 22:19
  Speaker 7: because the players like hanging off attaining. He got dread logs.
• 22:22
  Speaker 7: He got on blue jams, the black tea shirt and
• 22:24
  Speaker 7: the hands wrapped up. He got laudera heman anywhere or no.
• 22:30
  Speaker 7: He got a black teacher on the hoodies rapper entertaining.
• 22:36
  Speaker 9: Okay, see lady right now on the ground and a
• 22:38
  Speaker 9: lot of the vest and everybody breaking that he got stuff.
• 22:41
  Speaker 11: That's when he got up and he subsequently stabbed her
• 22:44
  Speaker 11: three times.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: He's on the ground right now.
• 22:47
  Speaker 9: There's people around there and the pressure off.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of luck.
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: We just endured the Charlie Kirk murder. And whether you
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: agree with him or disagree with him, whether you like
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: him or hate him, it doesn't matter. He was murdered.
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: Do you recall the suspect jumped down off the roof
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: and took off and tried to blend in and he
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: did blend him with all the other students his age.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: Same thing here. I want you to take a look
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: as we're playing that nine to one one call one
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: of them at the defendant just mosying off. Okay, listen,
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: I think I'm here man, I think the girl might
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: be there.
• 23:36
  Speaker 7: Man, the piot person, the guy over there's no point, Represident,
• 23:39
  Speaker 7: and the guy that he is standing over here on
• 23:41
  Speaker 7: the round. Yeah, he was on the other platform either.
• 23:43
  Speaker 7: He's a black male dread loss. He got his hand
• 23:46
  Speaker 7: wrapped up in a red jacket, a black teacher because
• 23:49
  Speaker 7: the players.
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: Like hanging off the team.
• 23:51
  Speaker 7: He got dread lovee. He got on a blue dreams,
• 23:53
  Speaker 7: the black teacher and the tams wrapped up. He got
• 23:56
  Speaker 7: laudary woman anywhere or is he no? He got a
• 24:00
  Speaker 7: boy feature home.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: Okay, and what do I want you to look at.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: Let's see the video please of him getting off the
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: train and just calmly walking away, much as Tyler Robinson did.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: Police are swarming the area. He's just like walking away.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: Don't look at me. I'm normal. I'm not running from
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: the scene. I'm totally chill. Check it out, just wandering
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: along until the nine one one calls that described what
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: he was wearing nail him. He's just blending in, Kessler.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: He does not want to bring attention to himself by running.
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: His hand is dripping with blood. Is he in a
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: hurry to get to the dock in a box? No,
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: because he doesn't want police to see him running.
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: Right, And the two explanations, right, One is he's so
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: clever that he's just trying to.
• 24:56
  Speaker 5: Blend in and that's how clever he is.
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: Or he's got some mental issues and he's mentally insane
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: and he doesn't even realize that what he did was wrong.
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: And certainly in this case, that's got a good good
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: chance of success.
• 25:07
  Speaker 5: Right, This guy is absolutely off the deep end.
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: You see somebody like that, you immediately jump to why
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: would you do something like that? You've got to have
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: something wrong with you. It's got to go right to
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: a metal insanity defense. That's the only benefit. Otherwise you're
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: thinking this a normal guy who planned that kind of murder,
• 25:21
  Speaker 4: plan to just walk casually. He didn't plan this. He
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: didn't plan to get out of trouble. He just didn't
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: know where he was. You heard later, Right, he's got
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: voices going on in his head. He's got some mental issues.
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: That's why he was walking around as if he did
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: nothing because he mentally.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's got fourteen arrest and just got out of
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: jail in January and immediately did this. You know what,
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: everybody there he is, there's Kessler. There is the truth.
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: Kessler coming up with what some would say is a
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: brilliant argument that he walked up because he didn't know
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: he did anything wrong. You use what you got that
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: he didn't plan the incident, Randy Kessler. Under the law,
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: isn't it true that intent can be formed in the
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: blink of an eye and a twinkling of a moment,
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: As my old judge, juge Luthor Alberson would say, isn't
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: that true? Premeditation does not require a long drawn out plan,
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: such as murdering someone by poisoning them over weeks and months.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: Isn't that true?
• 26:28
  Speaker 5: It is true?
• 26:29
  Speaker 4: And you might have missed another point, which is why
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: did he have a knife on him in the first place?
• 26:32
  Speaker 4: That probably helps the intent or planet, but the truth matters.
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: Why would he form intent to hurt this person? There's
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: no interaction. You're talking about passion murder where you see
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: your wife cheating with somebody else, or you see something
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: that disturbs you and throws you into your reg's his
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: wife cheating.
• 26:49
  Speaker 5: That's my point.
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: There's nothing that triggered this premeditation. You talk about forming
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: you know the intent because you see something. There was
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: nothing that happened to make him form the intent.
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: It's you've never had a criminal that did the day
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: just because they felt like it. They had an itch
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: and they scratched it, And we always say why, Why? Why? Why?
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: Ask why? State doesn't have to prove motive. There doesn't
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: have to be why. All I have to know is
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: who did it? Did they have intent? And am I
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: in the right jurisdiction? That's what I need to know.
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: Right And the defense will come up with the why.
• 27:25
  Speaker 4: The why is because he's mentally insane, Stock hard Stock.
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: That's the only explanation that's going to get him any
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: possibility of a defense.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: And very quickly if that's possible. Randy Kessler, you're used
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: to making long and eloquent arguments to jurys and appellate judges,
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: But we just agreed that intent can be formed in
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: literally the blink of an eye. But you're saying he's
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: clearly melely insane, This is a litmus tap a yes no.
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: Isn't it true that the rule of insanity, the insanity
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: test is the old McNaughton rule, brought over to the
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: US from Great Britain. And it's one simple question. Did
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: the suspect know right from wrong at the time of
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: the incident. I don't care what he says he heard
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: voices last week or tomorrow. Did he know what he
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: did at the time was wrong? Isn't that the old
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: McNaughton test.
• 28:29
  Speaker 5: That's the old MacNaughton test.
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: And I think it's it's very applicable here because when
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: at the time he did that, clearly, it's going to
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: be easy to argue he did not know that what
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: he was doing was wrong. He was acting under some impulse,
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: some mental diagnosis, some alternate personalities, something made him do that.
• 28:45
  Speaker 5: Clearly, did you just.
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: Pull that out of your.
• 28:53
  Speaker 5: Out of my way school business?
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: The bottom line is he did this, and did he
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: know right for wrong at the moment he did it?
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: And you can almost argue that anybody doing something like
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: that must not have known what they were doing. Why
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: else would they do it? There's no other reason. It's
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: not somebody he knew it's not somebody else.
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: Why why does it matter?
• 29:15
  Speaker 5: That's what you have.
• 29:16
  Speaker 6: Moments after allegedly stabbing Irena Brown captured on video nonchalantly
• 29:21
  Speaker 6: walking the platform of the train station, Police with weapons
• 29:24
  Speaker 6: drawn and up, surround the suspected killer, taking him to
• 29:28
  Speaker 6: the ground and taking him into custody. On the train,
• 29:31
  Speaker 6: Brown was described as wearing a hoodie. Now he's wearing
• 29:34
  Speaker 6: a black T shirt with the bloody hoodie wrapped around
• 29:37
  Speaker 6: his hands.
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: And here he comes, just walking along, cavalierly, calmly, don't
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: look at me, nothing to see. Oops. I guess they
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: got my description. Joining me and All Star panel to
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: makes sense of what we know right now. Straight out
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: to Ron Bateman, former homicide detective, undercover narc former sheriff,
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: and author of a crime fiction series, Silent Blue Tears,
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: his new book coming out next week. Question to you,
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: Ron Bateman, when you know when you see the police
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: closing in, very often if ennits do not run, they
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: try to blend in, like Tyler Robinson did after he
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: allegedly shot Charlie Kirk. He came down off the top
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: of that roof and then he didn't run. He walked
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: with Grandpa's long gun and then hit it. See what
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: I mean. That's just an example I'm giving you that
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: everyone is familiar with.
• 30:44
  Speaker 12: Yeah, and it really goes to speak to his intent.
• 30:46
  Speaker 12: We talked about intent being formed in a matter of minutes.
• 30:50
  Speaker 12: And you'll see him if you've played a video back,
• 30:52
  Speaker 12: you'll see him take a knife and it's a folding
• 30:55
  Speaker 12: blade that he actually folds the blade out himself. He
• 30:58
  Speaker 12: had to think about that, and then I believe when
• 31:00
  Speaker 12: he was stabbing the victim, I believe it's not a
• 31:03
  Speaker 12: lock blade. It actually closed and cut his finger and
• 31:07
  Speaker 12: that's why all the blood is dripping out on the
• 31:09
  Speaker 12: floor of the tree. But then the further show is intent.
• 31:13
  Speaker 12: He has the wherewithal. Remember we're talking about a guy
• 31:16
  Speaker 12: who's now schizophrenic and all that stuff, which is bull crap.
• 31:20
  Speaker 12: He has the wherewithal to try to conceal his identity.
• 31:23
  Speaker 12: He takes off the hoodie, he wraps his hand in
• 31:26
  Speaker 12: the hoodie, He tries to conceal his identity. He tries
• 31:29
  Speaker 12: to blend in and walk among the patrons. Let's not
• 31:32
  Speaker 12: even talk about all the people on the train that
• 31:34
  Speaker 12: didn't do a thing. That's another topic.
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: Not a dam in saying not a thing. In fact,
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: some of them in just not doing anything to help Arianna.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: They actually started videoing her as she's dying. Okay, I'm
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: glad you brought up what you did, Ron Bateman about
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: the folding knife. Unlike the fixed blade knife used by
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: Brian Koberger to butcher four in a sent Idaho students,
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: this is a folding blade used in the murder of
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: Arena to Randy Kessler. Uh, oh, where's Kessler? Don't see him?
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: Let's see him. Kessler, go ahead and get your kleenex.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: Because many people would argue one two seconds don't matter
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: what they do under the law. The time it takes,
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: and you can see it on video, him fidgeting around,
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: digging in his pockets to get the knife. Then he
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: unfolds the knife and positions it. That buys me about
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: five more seconds to form intent. Way when Kessler, yeah, well, I.
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: Don't know what you're going to do, and I don't
• 32:42
  Speaker 4: know what you want me to do with that. He
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: opened the knife and he did something with it. But
• 32:45
  Speaker 4: did he know what he was doing, did he know
• 32:47
  Speaker 4: that he was actually did he think it was him?
• 32:48
  Speaker 5: His argument is going to be some other personality to
• 32:50
  Speaker 5: go over.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: Think it was him?
• 32:52
  Speaker 5: Wait what Yes, listen to the videos, Listen to the argument.
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: I think it was due.
• 32:57
  Speaker 4: He did not think it was himself. He thought of
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: somebody else in his somebody else making him do this.
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: He was obviously mentally disturbed, heating form the content. Something
• 33:06
  Speaker 4: in his brain went wrong and made him do that.
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: That's the mental insanity defense that he's going to have
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: to use.
• 33:11
  Speaker 5: I don't know what else he has.
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: In the last hours, newly obtained nine to one one
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: audio and video. Now, this is video from the public
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: transport train. There's plenty of video circulating out there because
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: many of the train writers the patrons, instead of trying
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: to help Arena, started videoing her as she died. Let's
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: see thirty eight showing Arena getting onto the train and
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: taking her seat, minding her own business. She worked two jobs,
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: new to the US, seeking a better life according to
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: her family and God bless her soul. Look who is
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: sitting behind her, and he's staring at her right now
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: like a wolf looking at a sheep. She gets on,
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: looks around and takes a seat fortuitously in front of
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: the defendant. Let's move to thirty nine. I want you
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: to see the defendant moving in his seat. This is
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: what we call time to form intent. Fidgeting with the knife,
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: and we're stopping it right there. We don't need to
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: see the next frame. I'll see it again time right
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: there under the law to form intent. She comes and
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: sits down. He's staring at her, stares at her like
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: a wolf, and then pulls his knife, looks at it,
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: unfolds it, and stands up to murder her. Let's move
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: to forty. This video showing a close up of the
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: defendant's hands. That's Arena's hat. Look if that's not intent,
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: that is intent. What do you have to say to that?
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: Keep on the video, Kessler, look at that. I'm totally
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: going to slow mow that for the jury.
• 35:13
  Speaker 5: So I've maintained all along this is a case about sentencing.
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 35:16
  Speaker 4: You can tell me all day long that it's not
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: just about sensing. You're going to get a conviction, but
• 35:21
  Speaker 4: what made him do that? You say, the why doesn't matter.
• 35:24
  Speaker 4: Jury's always want to know why. And you know what,
• 35:26
  Speaker 4: if there's a mental insanity defense, the why is going
• 35:28
  Speaker 4: to matter, and that's going to be the only thing
• 35:30
  Speaker 4: he has if he goes to trial. To argue is
• 35:32
  Speaker 4: that he was out of his mind, he did not
• 35:34
  Speaker 4: know what he was doing, he was been controlled, possessed,
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: whatever it is, because you're right. Otherwise you've got the intent,
• 35:41
  Speaker 4: the you've got the conviction.
• 35:43
  Speaker 5: If he doesn't use him at much.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: Sure, if he was quote possessed all the other fourteen times,
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: maybe that he committed a crime, some of them violent.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: This is not age progression, people, This is just a
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: few of his mini arrests. I say, Kessler, because I
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: don't want him to hide behind some pictures you're putting up. Kessler,
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: did you actually just say maybe he was possessed. You're
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: going to bring dem on expirits in as a defense.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: I can't wait. Is that what you just said? I
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: heard it. I can play it back.
• 36:16
  Speaker 5: You said, using a lay person termed.
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: It's you know, you want to use psychological term schizophrenic.
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: Somebody he thought that he was possessed. He thought that
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: somebody else was in his body, some sort of government
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: device was in his body. He thought something else was
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: going on. He is not owning this act. He did
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: not say I don't know why I did this. He
• 36:33
  Speaker 4: was saying, look, you know, I don't know what happened.
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: But they need to scan me, they need to investigate me,
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: They need to figure this out. Something was going on
• 36:40
  Speaker 4: in his brain, and we don't understand brains yet far
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: enough to understand why this happened.
• 36:44
  Speaker 5: But clearly he did not say I did it and.
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: I'm sorry or I can't figure out why I did it.
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: He doesn't seem to have any recollection, so it's a
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: mental health defense.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: It's clearly recollection. I can tell you this is the
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: deathnitel for the defense when a JD starts talking like
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: an MD. I just heard you trying to describe the
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: human brain. Good luck with that. I know my limitations.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: I am not Did you hear me talking to coin?
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: I know that. I don't know, but I love you
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: theorizing on his brain function. I want to go to
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: a special guest joining us any Con. He is director
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: of Victim Services and Advocacy Crime Stoppers out of Houston.
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: Longtime friend and colleague who first introduced me to murder
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: rebelia people making money off murder? Any Con. How many
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: times have you heard a defense attorney much like Randy
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: Kessler joining us tonight state he didn't know what he
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: was doing. Well, you know what. He knew what train
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: stop to get off, didn't he He needed to take
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: off that bloody shirt and wrap it around his hand,
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: not just the hurt hand that he sliced himself, but
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: to change clothes. He got off that train at the
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: very next stop and tried to walk away hit it. Andy.
• 38:06
  Speaker 7: You know the.
• 38:07
  Speaker 5: Video speaks volumes.
• 38:08
  Speaker 14: I mean, there's no way off answer, Butts, he knew
• 38:10
  Speaker 14: exactly what he was doing.
• 38:11
  Speaker 5: He tried to cover up.
• 38:13
  Speaker 14: But the real story to me is you had a
• 38:16
  Speaker 14: young lady who fled war torn, war torn Ukraine only
• 38:21
  Speaker 14: to end up being murdered in the United States. Now
• 38:26
  Speaker 14: we look at what happened with the defendant. This defendant's
• 38:30
  Speaker 14: got a rap sheet. Ye long fourteen arrest and in
• 38:33
  Speaker 14: and out of jail, in and out of prisons, in
• 38:35
  Speaker 14: and out of mental hospitals, and so forth.
• 38:38
  Speaker 10: This is a.
• 38:39
  Speaker 14: Total cataclysmic criminal justice system failure. This is a tragedy, yes,
• 38:46
  Speaker 14: but it was so utterly preventable. And my position again
• 38:50
  Speaker 14: is we continue to allow repeat offenders right back into
• 38:56
  Speaker 14: our community to do what they do best, and that's
• 38:59
  Speaker 14: commit This is not just a North Carolina It's a
• 39:03
  Speaker 14: national issue. In Houston We've documented over two hundred plus
• 39:08
  Speaker 14: people that have been murdered by defendants released on what's
• 39:12
  Speaker 14: called a personal recognance bond, which is what this defendant
• 39:16
  Speaker 14: was recently released on. That is about as disturbing as
• 39:21
  Speaker 14: it gets. And I'm hoping that this will ultimately open
• 39:25
  Speaker 14: up everybody's eyes, not just in North Carolina, but all
• 39:29
  Speaker 14: over the country that the criminal justice reform movement has
• 39:33
  Speaker 14: led to more victimization, more murders than any other natural
• 39:37
  Speaker 14: disaster in this country's history.
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace two Susan Hendricks joining US
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: investigative journalists. I want to follow up on what Andy
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: kan just said. This guy just got out of jail.
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: Why who let him out of jail? Exactly?
• 40:06
  Speaker 13: And it was mentioned of a foreigm laws they're not
• 40:09
  Speaker 13: working fourteen. When you put up those mug shots, Nancy,
• 40:13
  Speaker 13: and that's not all of them, you think, how could
• 40:16
  Speaker 13: this guy have gotten out? What was he doing there
• 40:19
  Speaker 13: in the first place? The governor signing a law in
• 40:22
  Speaker 13: her name, Arena's law. But he even says, look, this
• 40:24
  Speaker 13: isn't enough. It's a step in the right direction, but
• 40:27
  Speaker 13: it's clearly not enough, meaning it will take away some
• 40:30
  Speaker 13: of the power from the judges to make that decision
• 40:33
  Speaker 13: in letting someone who has priors out of prison.
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: Guys, we know who the judge was. She is about
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: as hard on crime as a limp noodle. Her name
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: is Judge Teresa Stokes. Let's listen.
• 40:52
  Speaker 6: In September twenty twenty two, Brown arrested on assault on
• 40:56
  Speaker 6: a female an injury to property. April twenty twenty four,
• 40:59
  Speaker 6: Brown arrested for me using nine one one May twenty
• 41:01
  Speaker 6: twenty four, misusing nine one one January twenty twenty five,
• 41:05
  Speaker 6: misusing nine one one January twenty twenty five. Judge Teresa
• 41:09
  Speaker 6: Stokes release Brown the same day he was arrested on
• 41:12
  Speaker 6: a written promise to appear. Brown did not present himself
• 41:15
  Speaker 6: for evaluation. Three weeks later. He is alleged to have
• 41:18
  Speaker 6: killed Irena. If that order was followed, he would have
• 41:21
  Speaker 6: been evaluated weeks before the stabbing. The public defender in
• 41:25
  Speaker 6: his murdered charge filed a motion questioning Brown's mental capacity,
• 41:28
  Speaker 6: and Wiggins again ordered dB evaluated. Police have not identified
• 41:32
  Speaker 6: any motive or lengthy attack to mental illness in the
• 41:36
  Speaker 6: last hours.
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: Newly released nine to one one audio and video. Let's
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: take a look this video is showing the defendant calmly
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: waiting to exit the train. He knows exactly what he's doing,
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: making way for people, and look at everybody walking around
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: the blood. Yeah they didn't help her, but they don't
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: want to get their tennis shoes bloody. And there he goes.
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: He knows exactly what's going on around him. He knows
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: when the train door opens that this is his exit
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: and he's leaving. Oranda, by the way, is bleeding out
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: dead right now. To Randy Kessler joining us, this is
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: not only a state case, but a federal case as well.
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: Explain why a special fleet of lawyers have been appointed
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: that are death qualified. What does that mean?
• 42:37
  Speaker 4: Because you want to make it appeal proof, right, lawyers
• 42:39
  Speaker 4: that are qualified to take on death penalty cases. Then
• 42:42
  Speaker 4: he cant after the fact say well, I had ineffective
• 42:44
  Speaker 4: assistance of counsel. My lawyers didn't understand how to handle
• 42:48
  Speaker 4: a death penalty case. They're protecting the verdict and the conviction.
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: Straightforward, easy is that the case will get reversed if
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: there is a conviction, if there is a death penalty sentence,
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: if the lawyers are not death qualified. In other words,
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: you have to sit on X number of death penalty cases,
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: either first chair or second chair. So you know what
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: you're doing. It's got to be a fair fight, now,
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: isn't a true? Susan Hendrix that he the suspect has
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: been sent for evaluation, mental evaluation to see if he
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: is competent to stand trial.
• 43:29
  Speaker 13: Yes, absolutely he is and will be evaluated. I was
• 43:33
  Speaker 13: listening to a prison phone call between him and his
• 43:36
  Speaker 13: sister and he doesn't make any sense. I don't know
• 43:40
  Speaker 13: if that's because he is insane or he's acting like
• 43:43
  Speaker 13: he does have a problem.
• 43:45
  Speaker 5: But I think they.
• 43:46
  Speaker 13: Will, of course be brought into court and he will
• 43:49
  Speaker 13: be evaluated, and I think that that's the way the
• 43:52
  Speaker 13: defense will go. But how can you erase these fourteen
• 43:55
  Speaker 13: mugshots in all and the video there is just like
• 43:59
  Speaker 13: you said, Nancy planning this out, opening the knife and
• 44:02
  Speaker 13: doing it. He said to his sister in the jailhouse
• 44:05
  Speaker 13: call that he felt that they wanted him.
• 44:07
  Speaker 5: To do it. He didn't do it, he was told
• 44:09
  Speaker 5: to do it.
• 44:10
  Speaker 13: We'll see if that works.
• 44:11
  Speaker 5: I doubt it.
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: You know, Kessler, there's a big difference in evaluating someone
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: for incompetency and insanity. Explain and a nutshell. What is incompetency, Well, compecy, you.
• 44:28
  Speaker 5: Have to understand the proceedings.
• 44:29
  Speaker 4: It's not fair you can't help the lawyer defend you
• 44:32
  Speaker 4: if you're incompetent to stand trial. If you don't understand
• 44:34
  Speaker 4: the proceedings. To get off the hook for murder, you
• 44:38
  Speaker 4: have to have been insane at the time that it
• 44:40
  Speaker 4: happened that the thing happened. In Competency is more a
• 44:43
  Speaker 4: question of ability to stand trial. Do you understand the proceedings?
• 44:46
  Speaker 4: You need to be able to help in your own defense.
• 44:48
  Speaker 4: And if you're not able to help in your own defense,
• 44:50
  Speaker 4: then you don't have a trial until you are able
• 44:52
  Speaker 4: to assist in your own defense.
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: Nutshell, kel slar. Would you agree that competency is being
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: able to to assist your lawyers in your defense at
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: your trial? Competent you are competent to assist your defense attorneys? Yes, okay?
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: And insanity is whether you knew right from wrong at
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: the time of the incident. The time of arena is killing.
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: They are two very different things.
• 45:19
  Speaker 5: Right, don't like to agree with you, but yes.
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: So first, the lawyer is going to try to get
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: enroled incompetent. Why delay delay, delay, that's the first and
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: the last rule in the defense playbook. Why people forget
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: about it. Their memories fade, witnesses actually die, important witnesses
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: actually die or move, you can't find them, and the
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: inflammation surrounding the murder of an innocent young woman can
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: die down. How people forget about it. That's why the
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: defense wants a delay. Would you at least agree with that?
• 45:56
  Speaker 4: Yes, And it's probably easier to find incompetent at the
• 45:59
  Speaker 4: time a trial than insanity at the time. How do
• 46:01
  Speaker 4: you get inside of his mind at that exact moment,
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: whereas right now they can interview him, Now we can
• 46:06
  Speaker 4: have a psychologists test him. Now, you know, it's easier
• 46:09
  Speaker 4: for a justice say I'm going to put off the
• 46:11
  Speaker 4: trial then do say, oh, we're going to let him
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: off the hook for murder because of insanity. So it's
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: an easier thing to argue for the defense council, and
• 46:18
  Speaker 4: you get a second bite at the apple. If you
• 46:20
  Speaker 4: lose that argument, you still can argue insanity at the
• 46:22
  Speaker 4: time of the murder.
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: Right, So if at some point, if he is rehabbed
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: and is determined he is competent to stand trial, then
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: when he goes on trial, the defense will be insanity,
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: and there are a host of variations. There's guilty but
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: mentally ill, there's not guilty by reason of insanity. There's
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: guilty but insane, just as a whole variation of what
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: a jury can come back on. Just throw me a
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: few choices, Kessler.
• 46:55
  Speaker 4: I mean, you've named them. It really doesn't matter what
• 46:58
  Speaker 4: you call him, and it's state by state. Each state
• 46:59
  Speaker 4: calls different things. But you're giving the jury options. If
• 47:02
  Speaker 4: there are people on the jury that say there's something
• 47:05
  Speaker 4: wrong with him. I can't find that he's a normal
• 47:07
  Speaker 4: person that just intentionally went after this person and did it.
• 47:10
  Speaker 4: I want to give him some minor little break because
• 47:13
  Speaker 4: he's got mental issues. They all to do use one
• 47:15
  Speaker 4: of those other excuses to convict and say he had
• 47:18
  Speaker 4: mental issues. Mental you know, but you're right you named
• 47:21
  Speaker 4: three or four of them. They're called a whole bunch
• 47:22
  Speaker 4: of different things depending on which date you're in. But
• 47:24
  Speaker 4: there are other options besides murder one.
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: What about Andy Kahn.
• 47:29
  Speaker 14: You know, as much as you want to blame the offender,
• 47:31
  Speaker 14: and obviously he deserves a lot.
• 47:34
  Speaker 5: Of blame, what happened to this young lady?
• 47:36
  Speaker 14: I blame our criminal justice system even more. They kept
• 47:40
  Speaker 14: knowingly allowing him to re enter society time and time again,
• 47:46
  Speaker 14: only to see him reoffend time and time again. And
• 47:50
  Speaker 14: how on the heck do you justify giving someone are
• 47:54
  Speaker 14: you no bond? A cash no cash bond and say here,
• 47:59
  Speaker 14: you know in court that's insane to actually allow someone
• 48:04
  Speaker 14: with his rap sheet just to walk out of court
• 48:08
  Speaker 14: on the promise that you'll reappear again. This is what's
• 48:11
  Speaker 14: driving our system and why the public has just lost
• 48:16
  Speaker 14: faith because we keep seeing offenders like him that are
• 48:20
  Speaker 14: recycled all over the time, and they end up killing people.
• 48:25
  Speaker 14: This was a tragedy, but it was so utterly preventable
• 48:29
  Speaker 14: and it's a total systematic failure.
• 48:32
  Speaker 10: And I know you'll agree.
• 48:33
  Speaker 14: With me on this, Nancy, but I get sick and
• 48:36
  Speaker 14: tired of naming laws after dead people. And yet now
• 48:40
  Speaker 14: we have a new law named after Arena that hopefully
• 48:43
  Speaker 14: others won't end up with the same faith as she
• 48:46
  Speaker 14: has now become.
• 48:48
  Speaker 15: Despite all of this past documented criminal history. When Brown
• 48:51
  Speaker 15: was arrested yet again in January of this past year,
• 48:55
  Speaker 15: a Democrat.
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: Judge who will I will add was.
• 48:57
  Speaker 15: A supporter a strong supporter of form or Vice President
• 49:00
  Speaker 15: Kamala Harris released this insane criminal once again without requiring
• 49:06
  Speaker 15: him to pay any bail. He simply had to sign
• 49:09
  Speaker 15: a written promise to return for his court hearing. Think
• 49:13
  Speaker 15: about how crazy it is to ask a career criminal,
• 49:16
  Speaker 15: someone who by definition repeatedly breaks the law, to just
• 49:20
  Speaker 15: sign a written promise and come.
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: Back again another day. This is madness.
• 49:24
  Speaker 15: This monster should have been locked up and Arena should
• 49:27
  Speaker 15: still be alive.
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: From Fox Straight Out to Karen's Stark forensic psychologist renowned
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: TV radio trauma expert Karen way In.
• 49:39
  Speaker 8: I have to tell you, Nancy, yes, this guy has
• 49:42
  Speaker 8: been diagnosed I've heard with schizophrenia, but I see intent.
• 49:47
  Speaker 8: He knew to have that knife. He fled after he
• 49:51
  Speaker 8: committed that crime. And when her sister said to him,
• 49:56
  Speaker 8: why did you do that? Why did you do that
• 49:58
  Speaker 8: to the citizen person? And he said she was reading
• 50:02
  Speaker 8: my mind, which tells me that he has a rationalization
• 50:07
  Speaker 8: that he actually, after the fact, was trying to explain
• 50:12
  Speaker 8: what he did, which means that he knows the difference,
• 50:15
  Speaker 8: He understands he did something, and he wants to come
• 50:19
  Speaker 8: up with some kind of an explanation. So I see intent,
• 50:23
  Speaker 8: I see somebody who knew exactly what he was doing.
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: Ron Bateman joining me. Former homicide detective, former undercover narc
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: and author of a series Silent Blue Tears. You can
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: find it at Ronbatemanbooks dot com. Ron is, the investigators
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: here are, much like yourself, have their work cut out
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: for them. They don't have to prove just what happened.
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: They've got the right guy. Now the state, including investigators,
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: are going to have to prove he knew what he
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: was doing and that it was wrong. Ron, how do
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: you go about doing that?
• 51:02
  Speaker 12: Well, you know, you got to ask the question, which
• 51:04
  Speaker 12: is really obvious. If he didn't know what what he
• 51:07
  Speaker 12: was doing was wrong, then why did he leave his seat?
• 51:10
  Speaker 12: If he was completely schizophrenic and didn't know what was
• 51:13
  Speaker 12: going on, what he did was right, he would have
• 51:15
  Speaker 12: stayed put. But we know we've already talked about it.
• 51:18
  Speaker 12: He did all those things. He tried to conceal his
• 51:20
  Speaker 12: identity and tried to burn into the crowd and blah
• 51:22
  Speaker 12: blah blah, try to cover his hand up and all that.
• 51:25
  Speaker 12: But I got to make one point that the community
• 51:27
  Speaker 12: is crying about that. Maybe you don't hear Nancy, but
• 51:30
  Speaker 12: I do what the hell is wrong with the media
• 51:33
  Speaker 12: by Keith repeatedly showing these this murder over and over again.
• 51:38
  Speaker 12: Thank god your staff didn't do it today. We saw
• 51:40
  Speaker 12: Charlie Kirk murdered a thousand times. We've seen this poor
• 51:44
  Speaker 12: girl staff a thousand times. Are we so desensitized that
• 51:49
  Speaker 12: we have totally thrown away the victim's dignity and respect
• 51:53
  Speaker 12: that her parents probably most likely saw this and didn't
• 51:58
  Speaker 12: learn about it in private.
• 52:00
  Speaker 5: They should have.
• 52:01
  Speaker 12: This is really despicable that the media released this video.
• 52:05
  Speaker 12: Now you can release stills of the suspects so we
• 52:07
  Speaker 12: can find them. Good, no problem. But the Charlotte Transit Department,
• 52:11
  Speaker 12: you know, I don't know if it's a PIA that
• 52:13
  Speaker 12: went out of Public Information Act request, but they released
• 52:15
  Speaker 12: it and they didn't give it any thought, and it
• 52:18
  Speaker 12: was just for a god darned sound bite. And that's
• 52:20
  Speaker 12: bull crap. That is so desensitized. Desensitivity is just just
• 52:25
  Speaker 12: off the charts.
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: Andy con He's right.
• 52:29
  Speaker 14: We are caring more about defendants rights than we are
• 52:33
  Speaker 14: about victims' rights, and we repeatedly see this with crime
• 52:37
  Speaker 14: scene photos being sold online, videos being made of victims.
• 52:43
  Speaker 5: That are murdered and she deserves better.
• 52:46
  Speaker 14: But again I'm going to close with this. The defendant
• 52:51
  Speaker 14: fair share of the blame. But this is a total
• 52:54
  Speaker 14: systematic failure. It never should have happened. You cannot continue.
• 53:00
  Speaker 14: You to continue to recycle offenders over and over again
• 53:05
  Speaker 14: and expect a better outcome. She paid the ultimate price.
• 53:10
  Speaker 14: The only question is how many more are going to
• 53:12
  Speaker 14: pay the price under the guise of criminal justice reform
• 53:16
  Speaker 14: that has taking its toll on all our citizens throughout
• 53:20
  Speaker 14: the country. Enough is enough? This has to end.
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: Hey Nancy, Yeah, jump Han please.
• 53:25
  Speaker 12: Yeah, what I want to say? You know, we're so
• 53:28
  Speaker 12: we were so hell bent on showing this video over
• 53:31
  Speaker 12: and over again. Are we going to show a firing squad, which,
• 53:34
  Speaker 12: by the way, I could clear my schedule for that day.
• 53:36
  Speaker 12: Are we going to show the firing squad killing this guy? No,
• 53:39
  Speaker 12: that's we're not, because we just care about this little
• 53:43
  Speaker 12: cool SoundBite to get some attention, which is horrible, horrible
• 53:48
  Speaker 12: for the victims.
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: And I assume you're referring to the moment that Arena
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: was actually stabbed, Doctor Coin, question to you. Many people
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: want to believe that Arena's death was instantaneous, that she
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: felt nothing. That one moment, she's looking at her phone.
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: In the next moment she's looking at angels. That's not
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: what happened, Doctor Coyne. She suffered No.
• 54:11
  Speaker 11: I mean, you can argue that maybe she went unconscious,
• 54:16
  Speaker 11: you know, within a minute or just less. But she
• 54:19
  Speaker 11: certainly would have felt that stab wound, and you could
• 54:22
  Speaker 11: see when she looked at her attacker. She certainly would
• 54:24
  Speaker 11: have had that sudden rush of fear and panic before
• 54:28
  Speaker 11: she passed out.
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: And to Susan Hendricks, investigative journalist and author, Susan what next.
• 54:40
  Speaker 13: We owe Arena something. The United States owes her something.
• 54:45
  Speaker 13: I hope there's real change here. The embassy US embassy
• 54:48
  Speaker 13: in Ukraine working to get her body back there. Guess
• 54:51
  Speaker 13: what her mom said. No, she loved the United States.
• 54:55
  Speaker 13: That's why she came here. She's buried here. We owe
• 54:59
  Speaker 13: her something. I hope real change comes out of this.
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: If you know or think you know anything about this case,
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: the case is being built by the state and the defense.
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: As we go to air tonight, please dial seven zero
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: four three three four sixteen hundred repeat seven zero four
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: three three four sixteen hundred and let me emphasize as
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: we go to air de Curlos. Brown is presumed innocent
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: unless and until the state overcomes that presumption with evidence
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: that proves this guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. And no,
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: we do not want anyone that was legally insane at
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: the time of the incident to get the death penalty. However,
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: his actions belie that claim. We remember an American hero
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: Officer Ray Barontis child Chilipea, d California, killed in the
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: line of duty, leaving behind a grieving wife in three children.
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: American hero Officer Ray Brantis. Nancy Grace signing off your
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: wife had