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Life Lessons To Stop Being A Good Girl · Two Broke Chicks

0:00
Speaker 1: This podcast is recorded on gaddigal Land Always was, Always
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Speaker 1: will be Aboriginal Land, Hay Chicks, that's out and I'm
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Speaker 1: This is Two break Checks, a show that she shares
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Speaker 1: life lessons and tips to help make you rich in life.
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Speaker 1: And today we are joined by author and coach Caitlyn Judd.
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Speaker 1: She's just written a book called Good Girl, Goodbye. It's
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Speaker 1: all about how to break out of the mold that
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Speaker 1: society puts you in and build a meaningful life on
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Speaker 1: your terms. It's about creating something more in line with
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Speaker 1: what you want, not something that everybody tells you you want.
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Speaker 2: Caitlin, Welcome to Two Break Chicks. Thank you. I'm so excited.
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Speaker 3: I've told everyone that I'm coming on this show, so yeah,
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Speaker 3: yeah everyone, I'm like, guys, it's my turn.
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Speaker 4: And we're obsessed with the jumper.
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Speaker 2: Thanks.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, everybody go on YouTube and see Caitlin's beautiful jumper
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Speaker 1: and comment how it is.
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Speaker 3: It's from a little booty store down on the Ballery
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Speaker 3: Peninsula and Victoria.
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Speaker 2: That's where all the best purchases, random town and.
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Speaker 4: You can hand in from London.
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Speaker 1: You're like, but before we dive into the questions, we
1:16
Speaker 1: like to start with a life lesson of the week.
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Speaker 2: So, as our guest, would you like to kick us off? Oh?
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Speaker 3: I think like any opportunity can really provide you with
1:25
Speaker 3: an insight.
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Speaker 2: And what I mean by that is, you.
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Speaker 3: Know my experience with purchasing this jumper and the lady
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Speaker 3: in the store, you know, the cafe that I sat
1:35
Speaker 3: down out to work during the week overhearing conversations. Not
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Speaker 3: that I purposefully go in to do that, but I
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Speaker 3: do spend a lot of time solo tapping away and
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Speaker 3: I hear conversations, and there's these insights that just drop
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Speaker 3: at any time. And I think just being ready and
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Speaker 3: mindful that you know, it might not be the person
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Speaker 3: that you think you're going to get something out of,
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Speaker 3: but quite often you do end up walking away and
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Speaker 3: just being really grateful for that.
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Speaker 2: The lady that sold me this jumper, she said to me,
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Speaker 2: jump these job. It's the carrot. She said to me,
2:05
Speaker 2: you know, is your book in the bookstore next door?
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Speaker 2: And I said, oh no, Like you know, I do
2:09
Speaker 2: have a list of the book bookstores that have stopped it,
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Speaker 2: but they're not one of them.
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Speaker 3: She's like, well, why don't you go open next door
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Speaker 3: and introduce yourself and tell them that you know you're
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Speaker 3: you're local and that you know you'd love to have
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Speaker 3: your book stopped in their store.
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Speaker 2: And it's so funny.
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Speaker 3: It's like I had toyed with the idea, but I
2:26
Speaker 3: just needed someone else to be like, go do it.
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Speaker 4: Go.
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Speaker 2: You know, you do need your champion. So again, it's.
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Speaker 3: Those little moments that spark I don't know, just beautiful
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Speaker 3: ideas and connections and you've got to be open to that.
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Speaker 3: So that's my lesson to be just being opened.
2:43
Speaker 2: Did you go to the bookstore? Did they nice? They were?
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Speaker 2: And they ordered it? Oh sale? Yes, well at least
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Speaker 2: it's on the on the on the shelf now.
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Speaker 3: But yeah, so you know you've got to you just yeah,
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Speaker 3: you got to back yourself there someone.
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Speaker 5: Going into bookstores is what I did, and you and
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Speaker 5: then go and put it in all the best sale sections.
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Speaker 2: We literally did that.
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Speaker 5: Yeah, I put it and I was like, yeah, they're
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Speaker 5: the same yeah, friendship, same trope.
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Speaker 1: Or if it was only showing the spine, we'd like
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Speaker 1: flip it around a half the cover.
3:14
Speaker 2: I did that in the airports. That was fun. You know,
3:16
Speaker 2: you're just like walking past it. Click flick, keep walking.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it was that.
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Speaker 5: It's literally that video of Kiki Palmer on the lifing
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Speaker 5: and I'd be like flipping out book around me like sorry,
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Speaker 5: did this meet?
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Speaker 4: Like you've had enough sales? Okay toomic habits.
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Speaker 2: It's my time, yeah.
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Speaker 4: Said a million sales. All right, it's like some room.
3:37
Speaker 2: What's your life lesson? You go first?
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Speaker 5: Okay.
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Speaker 1: My life lesson was actually inspired by a post on
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Speaker 1: Instagram that I saw from an account called Olivia Unplugged.
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Speaker 2: I'll put a link in the show notes.
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Speaker 1: But it really grabbed me as I was scrowling and
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Speaker 1: essentially was saying that if you're living for the weekend,
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Speaker 1: you're wasting seventy life.
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Speaker 4: I saw this as well.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, how wild is that?
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Speaker 1: Because so many of us are just constantly looking forward
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Speaker 1: to the weekend, and like when Monday rolls around, you're like, fuck,
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Speaker 1: I can't wait for Friday, and when.
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Speaker 5: You're go when it's Wednesday and it's nearly Thursday, Thursday, Friday.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, So if you're living for the weekend, you're wishing.
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Speaker 1: Away seventy percent of your life. That is a lot
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Speaker 1: of time. Yeah, and I think it's a completely relatable thing.
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Speaker 1: I'm not saying that every day you have to wake
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Speaker 1: up or every Monday you wake up and be like no, no, no, Like,
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Speaker 1: that's why it is so important to look at your
4:27
Speaker 1: weekends and your weekday is kind of the same, like
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Speaker 1: there's still all opportunities to have some joy in your
4:33
Speaker 1: day and not saving all of your errands for the
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Speaker 1: weekend or all of your exciting things for the weekend,
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Speaker 1: actually peppering them through the week and being a little
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Speaker 1: bit more mindful of how you spend your Monday to
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Speaker 1: Friday because it's the majority of our time to life
4:47
Speaker 1: by design.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's what the man wants us to do.
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Speaker 1: Literally, And I think at this time in the air,
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Speaker 1: like this midpoint, I was like I needed that, right.
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Speaker 4: Because I do think people get to let June and
4:58
Speaker 4: July and they're.
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Speaker 2: Like, yeah, seasonal depression.
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Speaker 5: Literally, yeah, oh my god, I get you. Okay, my
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Speaker 5: life lesson is something that's happened in the last hour.
5:09
Speaker 5: You're not allowed to speak for two seconds.
5:11
Speaker 1: Don't speak.
5:12
Speaker 5: Where would you put an open bag of crisps?
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Speaker 1: Yeah?
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Speaker 2: I think this is I mean, fairly obvious. Back in
5:19
Speaker 2: the cupboard, right, Well.
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Speaker 5: Ladies and gentlemen, I'm sitting next to a mass murderer. Okay,
5:25
Speaker 5: Sally Mullen, because she has pulled out this bag of
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Speaker 5: crisps and I'm saying crisps in case there's like any
5:34
Speaker 5: British people that are like or American, They're like, what
5:36
Speaker 5: are you talking about?
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Speaker 4: Talking about?
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Speaker 1: Chip?
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Speaker 4: Potato chip potato chips? Right? She pulls them out of
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Speaker 4: the fridge and I was like, what the fuck?
5:45
Speaker 5: But wait, there's a plot twist because we open this
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Speaker 5: bag of chips.
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Speaker 4: I'm gonna go ahead and say, maybe like two weeks ago, those.
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Speaker 5: Things were literally fresh as the day they were born.
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Speaker 4: I eat my words because I thought.
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Speaker 2: You were really weird.
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Speaker 5: I'm gonna I'm gonna be honest, radical honesty in this friendship.
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Speaker 1: I don't know anyone else who does it except for
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Speaker 1: my boyfriend and I.
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Speaker 4: It is so strange.
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Speaker 5: I've never seen anyone put chips in the fridge, but
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Speaker 5: they are so fresh.
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Speaker 2: Makes a lot of sense. Do you know what I
6:15
Speaker 2: have started putting in the fridge rice crackers?
6:18
Speaker 1: I do you know how?
6:19
Speaker 2: And so this now I understand.
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Speaker 3: It's because you know how you open up and they've
6:22
Speaker 3: got you know, your your four rows, and if you're
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Speaker 3: eating them, by yourself.
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Speaker 2: I mean, look, I can easily get through four rows.
6:27
Speaker 2: But let's say you get to three and.
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Speaker 3: You're like, I want to say those but I can't
6:30
Speaker 3: be bothered putting the jart. That's so lazy. It Let's
6:33
Speaker 3: be honest, it's a lazy choice. But I put it
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Speaker 3: into the fridge and they do stay fresh.
6:39
Speaker 5: Yeah.
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Speaker 2: You don't have to wrap them up any night.
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Speaker 3: You just Yeah, if you're on the go, you just
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Speaker 3: throw them back in there and pick them up tomorrow.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. Anyway, let us know in the comments.
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Speaker 5: The chips go in the fridge or in the cupboards
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Speaker 5: to get roasted.
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Speaker 4: I was ready to roast you for this, which you
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Speaker 4: know I would. I love you.
7:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, should we get into the episode, let's do it. Okay, So, Caitlin,
7:07
Speaker 1: you started your career in the corporate world, but can
7:09
Speaker 1: you give us a little bit of a TLDR of
7:12
Speaker 1: how you've ended up now in like the coaching space
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Speaker 1: and running your book.
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Speaker 3: I did start in corporate marketing, and I would have
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Speaker 3: been out twenty three by the time I actually got
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Speaker 3: back from America.
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Speaker 2: So we still live in Miami. How that to my exactly?
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Speaker 2: Every time I say.
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Speaker 3: That song by story oh god, I have some fun story,
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Speaker 3: some cracking stories.
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Speaker 4: I'll go with the celebrity people. That was me.
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Speaker 2: That would be honestly my dream.
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Speaker 1: That is.
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Speaker 4: That is my man.
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Speaker 2: I came, fine, we can find three or five. Yeah,
7:47
Speaker 2: it was so much fun. It was so funny.
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Speaker 4: Yeah.
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Speaker 6: So, while I was over there, like I studied originally
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Speaker 6: at the University of Miami, but I also I also
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Speaker 6: interned and I worked over there, and for some weird reason,
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Speaker 6: most of my bosses and I say, so it is
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Speaker 6: weird because here it was such.
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Speaker 2: A different experience.
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Speaker 3: Were women and women just like trailblazing doing their things,
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Speaker 3: starting businesses, you know, working for I did some corporate
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Speaker 3: work and then some also kind of like startups and
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Speaker 3: stuff in media, and they were all female leaders, and
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Speaker 3: I was like, this is cool.
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Speaker 2: That became kind of my blueprint.
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Speaker 3: I was just like, yeah, all right, I don't want
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Speaker 3: to be doing what she's doing when I'm older.
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Speaker 2: I want to be calling the shots.
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Speaker 3: So I had this really fascinating blueprint, so to speak,
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Speaker 3: and then came back to Australia when that kind of
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Speaker 3: part of my life ended.
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Speaker 2: I'm like, god, it was so fun people.
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Speaker 5: Yeah.
8:37
Speaker 2: Actually, my next book honestly, they'm my having part of
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Speaker 2: my life.
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Speaker 3: But you know, when I came back, I, yeah, I
8:44
Speaker 3: did get a corporate marketing job. And what was really
8:47
Speaker 3: interesting about that it was the entire executive suite and
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Speaker 3: even all the managers were male, and even the private
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Speaker 3: equity firm that you know bought out half the company
9:00
Speaker 3: invested again all male.
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Speaker 2: And so I'm like, I'm scratching my head and I'm like, okay,
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Speaker 2: you know that whole concept of like you can't be
9:09
Speaker 2: what you can't see.
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Speaker 3: I'm in this environment where I don't really know if
9:12
Speaker 3: this is for me because I can't really see the
9:14
Speaker 3: pathway or growth opportunities here. So I started to just
9:19
Speaker 3: really question that. And it wasn't that I didn't enjoy
9:23
Speaker 3: the work like that, you know, I really did. There
9:25
Speaker 3: was a lot of great opportunities there, and you know,
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Speaker 3: I really made it my own.
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Speaker 2: But I did start to question, like, is this is this?
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Speaker 2: It is this what I want? And is this what
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Speaker 2: I want for my future? And so that's when I went.
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Speaker 3: Down an entire rabbit hole on positive psychology, on well being,
9:44
Speaker 3: on female leadership, how do we how do we lead
9:48
Speaker 3: ourselves and lead others and how do we flourish while
9:51
Speaker 3: we're doing that. How do we design a life that
9:53
Speaker 3: we're not just optimizing for the weekend, we're also really
9:55
Speaker 3: excited about our Monday to Friday.
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Speaker 2: And so that's what I started to rese search and learn.
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Speaker 3: And you know, I was like consuming. Back then it
10:03
Speaker 3: was the webinars, you know, and then before podcasts were
10:06
Speaker 3: a thing, so you know, I didn't I couldn't really
10:08
Speaker 3: get away with just having things in my ears. I'd
10:10
Speaker 3: have to be like flicking my screen, you know, during
10:12
Speaker 3: my lunch break. But yeah, I really started to consume
10:16
Speaker 3: a lot of this information and I realized, Okay, yeah,
10:19
Speaker 3: I want to I really want to help people start
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Speaker 3: to figure out what it is they're good at, what
10:25
Speaker 3: do they enjoy doing, and how can they turn that
10:27
Speaker 3: into their life and their business or their career. And
10:30
Speaker 3: that's where the whole journey started. So, yeah, I studied
10:34
Speaker 3: positive psychology and.
10:36
Speaker 2: And and went out on my own.
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Speaker 4: It's twenty five positive psychology.
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Speaker 2: I studied positive psychology.
10:43
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that scribe scratch.
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Speaker 5: So let's talk about your book, Good Girl, Goodbye, great title,
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Speaker 5: thank you, thank you from your understanding.
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Speaker 4: What does a good girl look like? According to society.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, so the good girl, effectively is someone who has
11:03
Speaker 3: been conditioned to behave a certain way in order to
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Speaker 3: feel secure, to feel like they belong, to feel loved.
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Speaker 2: And so this often happens when we're little, When we're young.
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Speaker 3: Girls, you know, we require a level of safety in
11:19
Speaker 3: order to survive. But unfortunately, what ends up happening is
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Speaker 3: these behaviors, these patterns, these you know, learned coping mechanisms
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Speaker 3: carry through with us into adulthood, and they stick around
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Speaker 3: long after they're actually you know, required, and so it
11:39
Speaker 3: ends up holding us back in so many ways from
11:43
Speaker 3: opportunities from you know, really fundamentally beautiful relationships because perhaps
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Speaker 3: you're masking, perhaps you know, you are prioritizing other people
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Speaker 3: and putting other people first, classic kind of good girl behavior.
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Speaker 3: And this, yeah, as I said, it really does start
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Speaker 3: to hold whole and back. So what I originally thought was, well,
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Speaker 3: there's something wrong with us as an you know, as
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Speaker 3: an individual, like I was a good girl, you know,
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Speaker 3: and I kind of still some times identify with it.
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Speaker 2: So to other people, you know, what's going on here?
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Speaker 3: And the more that I spoke to other people, the
12:19
Speaker 3: more that I really kind of shone the light back
12:21
Speaker 3: on myself and examined my life and more of the
12:25
Speaker 3: research that continued to come out, I started to realize
12:28
Speaker 3: that this wasn't an individual deficit.
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Speaker 2: This was a systemic and.
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Speaker 3: A cultural force that we have been told how to
12:37
Speaker 3: behave and how to be and how to exist in
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Speaker 3: this world, in a world that's largely not designed for us,
12:43
Speaker 3: and we respond and react in a certain way to that,
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Speaker 3: and that's what keeps us small. That's what keeps us
12:49
Speaker 3: wanting to be contained and feel safe and afraid to
12:53
Speaker 3: really go out there.
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Speaker 5: And you know, said like a visceral reaction to that.
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Speaker 2: It makes you It doesn't.
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Speaker 1: It does, yeah, because you feel like you have to
13:05
Speaker 1: stay in line. And I think so many people listening
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Speaker 1: would probably feel that and recognize themselves in that. But
13:12
Speaker 1: you're write about the twelve good girl times, what are
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Speaker 1: the top three most common?
13:19
Speaker 2: Do you think? Yeah, it's a great question.
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Speaker 3: So I designed these archetypes based off of the research
13:24
Speaker 3: that I did with over one hundred women, and so
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Speaker 3: they really informed them. And what's interesting is not everyone
13:30
Speaker 3: will identify as a good girl, but when they read
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Speaker 3: the archetypes, they'll be like, oh yeah, oh, yeah, that
13:37
Speaker 3: might that might be me, you know, so it's not,
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Speaker 3: it's you know, and it was a divisive language, people
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Speaker 3: like no, I've got my shit together, like I'm not
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Speaker 3: a good girl.
13:45
Speaker 4: No I don't have my shit together, or were.
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Speaker 5: People that were like, help me exactly exactly what asking
13:54
Speaker 5: for a friend?
13:54
Speaker 2: What happens if you know the good no shit together? Well,
13:58
Speaker 2: well we'll take well we'll work on that after.
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Speaker 3: But yeah, some of the common ones that I I mean, look,
14:05
Speaker 3: the classic, the perfectionista. The perfectionist she edits and tweaks
14:10
Speaker 3: and continuously works at something until she feels like it's
14:13
Speaker 3: ready to be let go and you know, seen by
14:17
Speaker 3: the world. And sometimes because you continuously try to make
14:22
Speaker 3: something better, two things happen. One you just never eventually
14:26
Speaker 3: you never get it out into the world, or you
14:28
Speaker 3: kind of override the magic of it and it changes
14:32
Speaker 3: its original concept or its original structure, and it's like, oh,
14:36
Speaker 3: that actually ended up not becoming what I wanted it
14:38
Speaker 3: to be because I over engineered it almost.
14:41
Speaker 2: So I think that's that the perfectionista is a classic.
14:44
Speaker 3: And you know, we can talk about how that you know,
14:47
Speaker 3: really marries nicely with confidence and imposter syndrome later.
14:52
Speaker 2: Another one that I love is the Lollipop Lady.
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Speaker 3: She's busy, Yeah, this is, this is I'm probably one
14:59
Speaker 3: of the first archetypes that just I don't know it
15:02
Speaker 3: came to me.
15:03
Speaker 5: Uh.
15:04
Speaker 3: The Lollipop Lady is someone that is really great at
15:07
Speaker 3: making sure everyone else gets to.
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Speaker 2: Their destination, that everyone everything is like in control. It's like, yep,
15:13
Speaker 2: I've got the stops.
15:14
Speaker 4: You guys, take your shirts. The year is here, yeah.
15:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. And she's always putting other always yeah,
15:22
Speaker 2: hair back.
15:22
Speaker 4: And she's also like stopping samanths from lake texting.
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Speaker 2: She's been responsible.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, And she's not allowing for the magic to happen
15:32
Speaker 3: in life. She's really scared to relinquish control. And therefore
15:37
Speaker 3: that means that like, yeah, the magic that those opportunities
15:40
Speaker 3: don't come up. The hidden artist. We all have a
15:43
Speaker 3: hidden artist within us. We're all creative, but some people,
15:47
Speaker 3: many people are scared to put their work out there,
15:51
Speaker 3: so they shove it in drawers, they hide it away.
15:54
Speaker 2: They're like, oh, no, no one, no one will, no
15:55
Speaker 2: one will like this, no one want to see it.
15:57
Speaker 2: So you know, that's definitely a good girl face.
16:00
Speaker 3: The Fortress someone who nesa I've gone into for now,
16:02
Speaker 3: but the fortress is, yeah, someone who locks away their
16:05
Speaker 3: emotions and they're just scared to be vulnerable. They're scared
16:08
Speaker 3: to be seen for who they really are because they're afraid.
16:10
Speaker 2: That they're not going to be accepted. So yeah, there's
16:13
Speaker 2: twelve goodies in there.
16:14
Speaker 3: And as I said that, you know they are informed
16:16
Speaker 3: by the research. And you know, whether you or not
16:19
Speaker 3: you think you are a good girl outright, I think
16:21
Speaker 3: reading three of these and just seeing how it shows
16:25
Speaker 3: up in different areas of your life, because it's a spectrum,
16:28
Speaker 3: you know, always we're not always right up this end.
16:31
Speaker 3: We might sit somewhere along the continuum at different stages
16:35
Speaker 3: of our life. And also you know, depending on what
16:38
Speaker 3: those you know, external.
16:41
Speaker 2: Forces look like.
16:42
Speaker 5: Yeah, I do think women just constantly have this invisible
16:46
Speaker 5: pressure to be good, like to be a nice person.
16:51
Speaker 5: And we've seen even just the rise of certain terms
16:54
Speaker 5: like being a girl's girl, right, and how that is
16:58
Speaker 5: to me? I know everyone has their interpretations of it
17:01
Speaker 5: and how it started out to be a thing of
17:03
Speaker 5: like supporting women.
17:05
Speaker 4: But now is more slung around.
17:08
Speaker 5: As a way to tear women down for not matching
17:12
Speaker 5: someone else's measurement of good. So like if someone doesn't match, like,
17:17
Speaker 5: you know, their measurement of what a good thing to
17:21
Speaker 5: do is, I've decided they're now not a girl's girl.
17:23
Speaker 4: And that's like, that's why I don't.
17:25
Speaker 5: Like that term, because it is this thing of like
17:28
Speaker 5: where's boys boy?
17:29
Speaker 4: You know, like when I was holding standard And it's not.
17:33
Speaker 5: That, it just sometimes feels like women are kind of
17:36
Speaker 5: held by the scruff of their neck being.
17:38
Speaker 4: Like no, no, come on, be like be a girl's girl,
17:41
Speaker 4: be a good girl.
17:41
Speaker 5: And those are all the same, sorry to hit Mike,
17:43
Speaker 5: those are kind of all within this same you know pool.
18:05
Speaker 5: There's a really interesting study from the nineteen eighties where
18:08
Speaker 5: psychologist Carol Gilligan suggested the idea that women silencing themselves
18:13
Speaker 5: is conditioned behavior. At what age do women start losing
18:16
Speaker 5: their voice and why?
18:18
Speaker 3: Yeah, So this particular research was discovered through adolescence, as
18:26
Speaker 3: that age group where girls, I suppose, discover that there
18:31
Speaker 3: are pros and cons to saying certain things and to
18:38
Speaker 3: voicing certain opinions. Some will look some opinions will be
18:42
Speaker 3: treated more favorably, and other opinions, well, you know that
18:47
Speaker 3: might ask you from the cool group that might askd
18:50
Speaker 3: you from the boys wanting to like, you know.
18:52
Speaker 2: Get getting to know you and hang out with you.
18:55
Speaker 3: So you learn really early that there is a contract,
18:58
Speaker 3: there's a social condition that says, you know, be careful
19:02
Speaker 3: about what you say because you know it will be
19:04
Speaker 3: looked upon unfavorably.
19:06
Speaker 2: And that is you know, the whole idea, right, is.
19:10
Speaker 3: That we belong somewhere. You know, we require that. That's
19:13
Speaker 3: in our DNA. We need to belong, but we forget
19:16
Speaker 3: that when we start to over engineer that during adolescence.
19:22
Speaker 3: The long term effect of that is where it starts
19:26
Speaker 3: to play out and it starts to become detrimental. In
19:29
Speaker 3: the Google research, relationships are the number one casualty of
19:34
Speaker 3: being a good girl, right, which makes sense. We are relational,
19:37
Speaker 3: We need each other, right, And so if I'm being
19:40
Speaker 3: a good girl and you're seeing me in interpreting me
19:42
Speaker 3: a certain way, and then I decide one day to
19:44
Speaker 3: perhaps change back days, you know whatever, or you know
19:48
Speaker 3: you're just like, hey, I've actually got to bring up
19:50
Speaker 3: something that you're not typically used to me wanting to
19:52
Speaker 3: talk about.
19:53
Speaker 2: Or say, oh, that's going to cause conflict.
19:57
Speaker 3: So you know, young girls interesting, stilly enough, trying to
20:02
Speaker 3: preserve relationships.
20:03
Speaker 2: And belong and then lay it down the track.
20:06
Speaker 3: It can have not everyone, obviously, but it can have
20:11
Speaker 3: a detrimental effect and be really tricky to build relationships
20:17
Speaker 3: with a solid foundation. So, yeah, it's during adolescence, and
20:20
Speaker 3: I think, you know, it's not the girls just lose
20:23
Speaker 3: their voice. They don't just lose their voice. They don't
20:25
Speaker 3: lose their opinions. We all have opinions, we all have beliefs,
20:29
Speaker 3: and you know.
20:30
Speaker 2: We are rightfully so you know, allowed to express those.
20:35
Speaker 3: It's just that it becomes a little bit harder because
20:38
Speaker 3: the world is a lot more critical on what women
20:41
Speaker 3: say and how they say it. And we learn that early,
20:45
Speaker 3: so we have to really make a conscious effort to
20:47
Speaker 3: counteract that.
20:49
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that everything.
20:50
Speaker 5: You know, it's very more common for women's words to
20:53
Speaker 5: get picked apart, and so it's easier to say nothing.
20:56
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, it's easy to say nothing.
20:59
Speaker 3: There's also the same time, there's a physical change that's happening, right,
21:05
Speaker 3: and so you've got a lot going on in your body,
21:07
Speaker 3: and it's like we have to deal with all of
21:09
Speaker 3: that ship and then I have.
21:11
Speaker 4: To be thinking, oh, don't say that, oh no, don't
21:13
Speaker 4: do that.
21:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's it's hard and that age.
21:18
Speaker 3: You know, equally, girls drop out of sport this at
21:22
Speaker 3: a much faster rate during that age adolescence, and I think, again,
21:28
Speaker 3: you know, we become self conscious, We are judged physically,
21:32
Speaker 3: you know, we learn that from a very young age
21:34
Speaker 3: that you know, your looks are your currency. And so
21:38
Speaker 3: we you know, we opt out of sport. We've got
21:41
Speaker 3: changes happening, We're judged, there's pressures, and then you know,
21:46
Speaker 3: and then there's obviously like less pathways in sport, or
21:49
Speaker 3: at least there were, they're obviously opening up now. It's exciting,
21:51
Speaker 3: but yeah, it's a tough time, and I think we
21:53
Speaker 3: really need to encourage girls at you know that during
21:57
Speaker 3: that transition to just keep at it, keep going, keep
22:02
Speaker 3: you know, using your voice like, yeah, it's gonna be
22:04
Speaker 3: uncomfortable time, but like, my god, it's going to be
22:06
Speaker 3: much harder down the line, when you know, you find
22:09
Speaker 3: that who you are and who you told to be,
22:11
Speaker 3: there's a difference between the two.
22:12
Speaker 1: Well, that's actually interesting that you bring that up, especially
22:16
Speaker 1: in terms of maybe how girls behave in comparison to
22:19
Speaker 1: young boys in adolescence, which is interesting because a studying
22:24
Speaker 1: conducted by Cornell University found that men actually overestimate their
22:29
Speaker 1: abilities and their performance, while women tend to.
22:32
Speaker 2: Do the opposite. Can you explain how this confidence gap happens?
22:37
Speaker 3: Yeah, look, you know this, this is an interesting conversation.
22:42
Speaker 2: And I flipped back and forth on it quite a bit.
22:46
Speaker 3: I was just sitting in the hairsalong and there was
22:49
Speaker 3: a guy sitting next to me getting his head done,
22:52
Speaker 3: and he was he must have been in his fifties,
22:54
Speaker 3: and he was saying, I almost quit my career because
22:59
Speaker 3: I was so afraid of public speaking that and I
23:05
Speaker 3: was a researcher. I was a researcher, so I had
23:07
Speaker 3: to report on my findings. I was so terrified that
23:11
Speaker 3: I almost gave up my career.
23:13
Speaker 2: And I was thinking to myself, Wow, do you know
23:15
Speaker 2: what that is Actually.
23:16
Speaker 3: The first time, one of the first times that I
23:19
Speaker 3: have heard a man vocalized that before. And I'm thinking,
23:25
Speaker 3: Holy hell, I'm about to be on a podcast and
23:27
Speaker 3: you know, like, we're going to talk about this, you know,
23:29
Speaker 3: the whole confidence gap as it pertains to women. And
23:32
Speaker 3: here he is confidently and comfortably saying, you know what,
23:37
Speaker 3: that actually really scared me, and I tried a few
23:41
Speaker 3: things and I didn't work, and I was willing to
23:43
Speaker 3: almost walk away from a career. Confidence affects all of us.
23:47
Speaker 3: Crisis of confidence affects all of us. And what's interesting
23:53
Speaker 3: is that this research and research that has come after it,
23:59
Speaker 3: and what societ already generally is saying, is that there
24:03
Speaker 3: are social and societal conditioning that really plays into.
24:10
Speaker 2: White women struggle with their confidence.
24:13
Speaker 3: And it comes back to these inherited scripts, these inherited
24:17
Speaker 3: beliefs that we learn when we're younger and we carry through.
24:22
Speaker 2: So if you were taught to be good, if.
24:26
Speaker 3: You were taught to be well behaved, taught to color
24:29
Speaker 3: inside the lines, to be perfect, to not get your
24:33
Speaker 3: dressed dirty, to not you know, put a foot wrong
24:38
Speaker 3: when you go out into the big bad world, that
24:41
Speaker 3: ain't how it is. Right, It's a much different story.
24:45
Speaker 3: Life and business is all about.
24:47
Speaker 2: Trying and failing and trying and failing and trying and failing. Right,
24:51
Speaker 2: That's what it is. It is trial and error.
24:53
Speaker 3: And when you grow up and you're not necessarily encouraged
24:57
Speaker 3: to do that and to be that.
25:00
Speaker 2: Person, to be the rough and tumble and to you know,
25:02
Speaker 2: go and make mistakes.
25:03
Speaker 3: And and and not be treated differently as a result
25:07
Speaker 3: of the outcome. Yeah, it's gonna be hard. It's gonna
25:10
Speaker 3: be hard to become an adult and you know, step
25:13
Speaker 3: into the workforce and feel like you've got your shit together.
25:16
Speaker 3: Confidence is really a muscle that's built it's confidence is
25:22
Speaker 3: built in action, and I think we forget that.
25:24
Speaker 2: A lot of the time.
25:26
Speaker 3: And yes, you know, twenty five to fifty percent of
25:28
Speaker 3: confidence can be biological.
25:30
Speaker 2: So someone will come.
25:32
Speaker 3: With, you know, the genetic makeup that says you might
25:37
Speaker 3: be super super confident or you might struggle.
25:40
Speaker 2: But we can also change that, right, that is malleable.
25:43
Speaker 3: But seventy five percent therefore says no, we can work
25:46
Speaker 3: at this. We can build our confidence muscle. We can
25:48
Speaker 3: try the things, we can excavate and look at, well,
25:51
Speaker 3: what are my inherent.
25:53
Speaker 2: Beliefs, what are my stories? I bet that guy in
25:55
Speaker 2: the salon today, he.
25:58
Speaker 3: Could have been a good boy, could have also had
26:01
Speaker 3: a lot of the same stories and narratives growing up
26:04
Speaker 3: that his voice didn't matter, or you know he's he
26:08
Speaker 3: he's not, or it was not okay to fail. And
26:11
Speaker 3: so I think we need to stop trying to fix women.
26:14
Speaker 3: I think we need to stop trying to fix women's confidence.
26:17
Speaker 3: It is not something that is wrong with you. It's
26:20
Speaker 3: just something that needs to be examined, it needs it's
26:23
Speaker 3: something that you need to obviously educate yourself around and
26:26
Speaker 3: then make those choices and decisions.
26:27
Speaker 2: It's going to better at yourself.
26:29
Speaker 3: And you know, some of us will need to be
26:31
Speaker 3: able to stand on the stage and speak, some of
26:34
Speaker 3: us won't. And so it's like, what's your level of
26:37
Speaker 3: confidence that you need for yourself?
26:39
Speaker 2: You don't need, don't.
26:40
Speaker 3: Have to be the you don't have to be, And
26:42
Speaker 3: it's in it and really and that's that's the most
26:45
Speaker 3: important thing.
26:45
Speaker 2: It's really in a it's in a belief. It's self belief,
26:49
Speaker 2: and it's self confidence. It's most important.
26:51
Speaker 5: Flip it as well though, because there is this double
26:53
Speaker 5: standard as well that like.
26:55
Speaker 4: Kind of what we've been talking about this top of like,
26:58
Speaker 4: you know, women.
27:00
Speaker 5: Their voice a lot, but then also if women are
27:03
Speaker 5: too confident or too loud, they can be labeled as
27:06
Speaker 5: you know, bossy or difficult and too much. And women
27:11
Speaker 5: are like very often told their in quotes too much,
27:16
Speaker 5: and like why is that, Like how do you suggest
27:18
Speaker 5: women navigate the tricky double standard that it is if
27:23
Speaker 5: they do come in with confidence it is.
27:26
Speaker 3: So it's a double bind, and it's a backlash effect, right,
27:28
Speaker 3: and we're walking an impossible typrope. We've now found our
27:33
Speaker 3: voice and workplaces a starting to encourage women using their voice,
27:40
Speaker 3: and that's all well and good, but as you said, like,
27:43
Speaker 3: there are people that still don't want us to be
27:48
Speaker 3: using our voice and will query and question the integrity
27:53
Speaker 3: of you know, what we know, what we say, what
27:56
Speaker 3: we believe, and that can be really really tricky. You know,
27:59
Speaker 3: that is not necessarily something that all men face. It's
28:04
Speaker 3: not as well what all women face, but I think
28:07
Speaker 3: a lot of women do face this double bind. It's
28:10
Speaker 3: like lead, you know, we want you to we want yeah,
28:13
Speaker 3: we want you to speak up, but don't be too loud,
28:16
Speaker 3: you know, we want you to do it in a
28:19
Speaker 3: way that is safe for us. You know, it's a
28:24
Speaker 3: way that society still wants women to play by the rules,
28:30
Speaker 3: you know. And so we're walking this impossible tightrope going, well,
28:35
Speaker 3: I know I can do it, and I know I
28:37
Speaker 3: have agency and conviction and belief, but I'm still getting
28:41
Speaker 3: pressure externally saying you know, I can't.
28:45
Speaker 2: And I shouldn't be doing these things, and so what
28:47
Speaker 2: do you end up doing?
28:48
Speaker 5: Right?
28:48
Speaker 2: You get stuck and you get caught in the middle.
28:50
Speaker 3: I think that we I think, you know, it's not
28:53
Speaker 3: about becoming more masculine or those traditional masculine traits.
28:56
Speaker 2: You know, historically we've called them.
28:58
Speaker 3: We've called that, you know, yeah, confidence, we've called that,
29:02
Speaker 3: you know, self belief, we've called that agency.
29:06
Speaker 2: And you know, conviction and all those words.
29:08
Speaker 3: Right, I don't think it's about women becoming more masculine.
29:13
Speaker 3: It's an end, and I'll always advocate for the between
29:17
Speaker 3: the end. There's like a section in the book that
29:19
Speaker 3: I literally dedicate to like finding the middle ground.
29:22
Speaker 2: It's how can we lead.
29:24
Speaker 3: With those more historically feminine traits empathy, you know, communion,
29:30
Speaker 3: how do we work together love?
29:33
Speaker 2: Even you know what's fascinating.
29:35
Speaker 3: There's a strength research and report that says some of
29:39
Speaker 3: the best leaders actually have the strength of love and
29:42
Speaker 3: they lead with love. And that's because you can, you know,
29:45
Speaker 3: build and understand, build relationships, understand other people love.
29:49
Speaker 2: Empathy, and it's not.
29:52
Speaker 3: Fascinating, and so it's an end, you know, I think externally,
29:56
Speaker 3: what's beautiful or those feminine traits where yeah, you build connection,
29:59
Speaker 3: you're in service of others or to a team. Internally,
30:05
Speaker 3: you're decisive, you know what you want, You're going to
30:07
Speaker 3: learn how to communicate that clearly, and you're going to
30:10
Speaker 3: deliver it the way that that needs to be delivered.
30:12
Speaker 3: And so it's an end And I think it comes
30:14
Speaker 3: back to leading authentically. And yes, I know that word
30:18
Speaker 3: gets tossed around a lot, but if you are a
30:21
Speaker 3: leader and you're trying to be someone you're not, that
30:23
Speaker 3: is so easy to sniff out.
30:24
Speaker 5: Yeah, and that also just like I think that's more
30:27
Speaker 5: anxiety inducing. To wrap up, I have three quick fire
30:48
Speaker 5: questions for you. Number one, what is eldest daughter syndrome?
30:54
Speaker 3: Ah, this goes so well with the good girl doesn't end. Yeah,
30:58
Speaker 3: I like to say this is my triple threat. I
31:00
Speaker 3: am an eldest daughter, I am a good girl, and
31:03
Speaker 3: I'm also a virgo.
31:05
Speaker 2: Oh Lord help me.
31:08
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot going on, right, So I'm all
31:11
Speaker 3: three Yeah, and I put that in the book. But
31:14
Speaker 3: the eldest daughter syndrome is this pressure for eldest daughters
31:19
Speaker 3: to almost be too I see second in charge to that, Mum,
31:22
Speaker 3: which is someone that is responsible.
31:25
Speaker 2: She is the caretaker, the mpath.
31:28
Speaker 3: She is really like she carries the weight of the
31:32
Speaker 3: family in some respect on her shoulders.
31:35
Speaker 2: And that again is conditioning.
31:38
Speaker 3: Now, it is beautiful to like want to take care
31:40
Speaker 3: of you know, your siblings and your family and all that,
31:43
Speaker 3: but it isn't an expectator.
31:45
Speaker 2: It shouldn't be an expectation.
31:47
Speaker 4: Yeah.
31:47
Speaker 3: See, I think that there's definitely like a crossover between
31:49
Speaker 3: the eldest daughter and the good girl, for sure. And
31:52
Speaker 3: I think that's because the responsibility largely falls onto the
31:56
Speaker 3: eldest right and if you're a girl, you've also got
31:59
Speaker 3: those additional pressures to you know, be the care to
32:02
Speaker 3: take care of everyone, to make sure everyone else is okay.
32:04
Speaker 3: So that can just like compound and you know, yeah,
32:08
Speaker 3: you know, when you're a good girl and the eldest daughter,
32:11
Speaker 3: there's a lot going on. And I think it's just
32:14
Speaker 3: making sure that girls know it's not their responsibility. They
32:18
Speaker 3: don't have to be the care They can because it's beautiful,
32:21
Speaker 3: but they don't.
32:22
Speaker 2: Have to be.
32:22
Speaker 3: And I think that's the most important thing is we
32:24
Speaker 3: need to teach our girls. And on the flip side,
32:26
Speaker 3: that the boys need to step up and they're responsible
32:28
Speaker 3: to you know, if they're their eldest son. Like it
32:30
Speaker 3: shouldn't not not everything should fall on the shoulders of
32:34
Speaker 3: the woman. And we're about to go through one of
32:36
Speaker 3: the biggest transfers of be into generational wealth, which will
32:39
Speaker 3: fall sixty five percent of that will be passed down to.
32:43
Speaker 2: The eldest daughter, which is really cool.
32:44
Speaker 3: Two women, eldest daughters being one of you know, quite
32:48
Speaker 3: a big subset of who's going to be receiving that
32:51
Speaker 3: into generational wealth. And so think about imagine we're going
32:55
Speaker 3: to have to be doing the caring, but also imagining
32:57
Speaker 3: the finances. There's a lot. It brings up more questions
33:00
Speaker 3: for me then I have answers. However, just talking about
33:04
Speaker 3: it is great. I think we're talking about it and
33:07
Speaker 3: we're aware of it, and it's still just now. I'm like, well,
33:10
Speaker 3: hang on, where are my brothers. They can step up
33:12
Speaker 3: and like take as much as I trust me that
33:16
Speaker 3: I did send that message, don't you worry? Oh yeah,
33:19
Speaker 3: I've now started just you know, and that's it.
33:21
Speaker 2: That's my rebellion. I'm like, you two next year, just
33:27
Speaker 2: get it.
33:27
Speaker 5: Well, speaking of rebellions, what's a micro rebellion everyone listening
33:31
Speaker 5: can do today to break away and stop being a
33:33
Speaker 5: good what's the micro rebellion everyone can do today to
33:36
Speaker 5: stop being a good girl.
33:38
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, firstly, you know, go and investigate and
33:41
Speaker 3: see perhaps what your archetype is and where the good
33:44
Speaker 3: girl shows up in your life, because that will help
33:46
Speaker 3: determine where you.
33:48
Speaker 2: Might want to rebel.
33:49
Speaker 3: And I've paired the archetypes with some ideas for rebellions
33:53
Speaker 3: in the book, but one that I mean such a
33:56
Speaker 3: simple one. But just pause before saying yes, like I
33:59
Speaker 3: am like so enthusiastic, but yeap, oh my god, yeah,
34:02
Speaker 3: I'll do it, I can help whatever.
34:03
Speaker 2: What do you near me? What let's do this?
34:05
Speaker 3: And then all of a sudden, like the horses run
34:08
Speaker 3: run away, and you're just like, oh crap, like I
34:10
Speaker 3: actually don't think a I want to do that, or
34:13
Speaker 3: I don't have the resources and capacity, and then you
34:15
Speaker 3: end up having to like maybe disappoint some So just
34:18
Speaker 3: pause and think about it before you know saying yes,
34:22
Speaker 3: I think that's a really really really simple one. It's
34:27
Speaker 3: such an easy one, right, yeah, like it is, and
34:30
Speaker 3: I think like calling out other people, you know, just
34:33
Speaker 3: yesterday I went and to the.
34:35
Speaker 2: Pharmacy to fill a script.
34:37
Speaker 3: And the pharmacist of all people, was like calling my doctor,
34:41
Speaker 3: who's a woman a guy.
34:42
Speaker 2: It's like, oh, what did he say? What did he say?
34:44
Speaker 2: And I let it slide.
34:45
Speaker 3: For the first one because I was like, oh, you know,
34:47
Speaker 3: I mean, like this is you know, it's funny, like
34:50
Speaker 3: people hate say may come and if you know. But
34:52
Speaker 3: I said, I'm just gonna let it slide. And then
34:54
Speaker 3: he kept saying it and I was like, there is
34:56
Speaker 3: no clear indication.
34:58
Speaker 2: That this is a man.
35:00
Speaker 3: It really pissed me off because I'm like, shit, like,
35:03
Speaker 3: we worked so hard to get to where we are,
35:06
Speaker 3: we face these double blinds, we don't get paid as much,
35:10
Speaker 3: and then to just.
35:11
Speaker 2: Have someone blatantly, you.
35:14
Speaker 3: Know, assume that this person who's in the game, he's
35:18
Speaker 3: in the game right to assume that.
35:20
Speaker 2: That's a man. I was just like, I just looked
35:22
Speaker 2: at him, and I looked a him in the eyes,
35:23
Speaker 2: and I was was just like she.
35:27
Speaker 3: And he just stopped and he looked at me, Oh yeah,
35:31
Speaker 3: sorry she And I was just like, you know what,
35:33
Speaker 3: like will it change anything?
35:35
Speaker 2: Who knows? I think it does.
35:37
Speaker 1: Are their acts of micro feminism that the individual can do,
35:41
Speaker 1: because otherwise the issue can feel really really daunting. But
35:44
Speaker 1: knowing that it can be you know, pausing before you
35:47
Speaker 1: say yes or pulling out those little things, yeah, can
35:50
Speaker 1: really add up. But we always end our episodes with
35:53
Speaker 1: our guests with one final question, and we want to know,
35:57
Speaker 1: on your journey doing your research, writing this book, seeing
36:00
Speaker 1: everything that you've seen, what is your biggest life lesson
36:02
Speaker 1: so far?
36:03
Speaker 2: Oh god, uh, there's a lot in that book. I
36:07
Speaker 2: would say that.
36:10
Speaker 3: Really consider who is on your team, who are your.
36:18
Speaker 2: Who are your champions, who's this what's your scaffolding of support?
36:22
Speaker 3: Look like, I think that's so critical, right, Like you
36:26
Speaker 3: want people that really do champion you, that aren't sharing
36:31
Speaker 3: for your compliance. They want you to you know, they
36:33
Speaker 3: want you to change, to grow, to evolve, they want
36:35
Speaker 3: to see you succeed. Find those people like that is
36:39
Speaker 3: I think number one what has made the biggest difference
36:42
Speaker 3: in my career and just of late, like working with
36:46
Speaker 3: some really incredible, incredible people.
36:49
Speaker 2: And I think you know, on the on the on.
36:52
Speaker 3: The flip side, or an in addition to that is
36:55
Speaker 3: to really you know, take your shot, like take your shot,
37:01
Speaker 3: give it a crack.
37:02
Speaker 2: That's in the book. You know no one else is going.
37:05
Speaker 3: To be championing you as hard as you can, and
37:09
Speaker 3: you know your stuff. Just go and give it a
37:12
Speaker 3: crack and see what happens, right, because anything really is possible.
37:16
Speaker 3: Look at us sitting here on a Thursday, just like
37:19
Speaker 3: eating so many chips, and it's like tangy and like.
37:24
Speaker 2: Who would have thought this was possible?
37:25
Speaker 5: Man?
37:26
Speaker 2: Like, just do it?
37:27
Speaker 4: Like I love that.
37:28
Speaker 1: It's like have your support system but also being support system.
37:32
Speaker 4: It's a perfect way to wrap the episode.
37:35
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Caitlin.
37:36
Speaker 1: We'll make sure to put links to all of your
37:38
Speaker 1: socials and of course a link to buy the book.
37:40
Speaker 4: Good Girl, Goodbye in the show notes.
37:42
Speaker 2: But thank you so much for coming on the show.
37:44
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. What a trait absolutely loved it.
37:47
Speaker 4: Can't wait to borrow.
37:50
Speaker 2: It could be the communal sisterhood of the traveling jump Up.
37:53
Speaker 2: That perfect. Thanks Cheeks for.
37:55
Speaker 4: Having us in your ear holes. We absolutely love to
37:58
Speaker 4: be here.
37:59
Speaker 2: But ba fine
38:08
Speaker 4: Mm hm