Latest / Todd's World / Waiting on God When You’re Old as Hell | Genesis 16 Hagar & Ishmael | Beers With Jesus
Transcript
- Todd: Abram and Sarai at this point are probably eighty six. They're old. They're old as hell. Okay. Sorry. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: Eugene didn't write that one. That was Todd's World. Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: Is that in the footnote? Todd: It's the Todd's World study Bible. Abram and Sarai as old as hell. Okay. So so Sarai, Abram's Yo, it's Carrie: Ha ha Todd: wife, took her Egyptian maid Hagar and gave her to her husband Abram as a wife. Abram had been living ten years in Canaan when this took place. He slept with Hagar and she got pregnant. When Hagar learned she was pregnant, she looked down on her mistress, meaning Sarai. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: Sarai told Abram, It's all your fault that I'm suffering this is the most this is the most real story. It's all Abram's fault for her idea. Yo, it's Carrie: I was gonna say I was gonna say do not do not criticize Sarah because this is so so real. Todd: Welcome everyone to Beers with Jesus. Todd's world. I'm Todd. My world. Yo, it's Carrie: Hi, Todd. Todd: Carrie's world. Carrie's with me. Carrie's always Yo, it's Carrie: Hello? Todd: with me. So I appreciate the we do, you know, we do two podcasts a week. This one we just kind of go through stories of the Bible. It's Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: fabulous. And then we have one. Now we do new we do beers with Jesus every week. The Wild Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: Day Opinion News How we've started doing every other week. So this week we didn't drop a wildly opinionated news hour, but you can still go back and listen to last week's, it's still fabulous. And Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: and strangling kids seems to be an evergreen topic. So we had two Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah, not much has not much has changed since last week, so it's still it's still relevant. Todd: two wildly opinionated news hours in a row. The one was named Strangulation as Healthcare. And I thought that would Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: be our Lindsay Clancy episode. Then Carrie named the last one Strangulation Starts at Home, which was perfect. Yo, it's Carrie: So terrible. Thank goodness. Todd: But we're officially done with Lindsay Clancy. As far as Todd's world is concerned, we've strangled her with an exercise band and thrown her down a well. Yo, it's Carrie: There go. That's right, you wanted to throw them down a well. Yep. Welcome to Beers with Jesus. Cheers. Todd: So welcome to Beers with Jesus. I think that would be Jesus I think that's what he would do with Lindsay Clancy. I kid, I kid. Yo, it's Carrie: Cheers. This is my last this is my last beer. Gonna make it count. Todd: So you better Beers with Jesus, that's a place to drink it. Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah, today it's beer it's beer with Jesus. Just one. Hmm. Todd: You know what happened to me? So last last a week ago, last weekend, my my niece got married, Taylor got married. Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: And great wedding, great venue, the whole thing. Well then the the following day or it I think she got married Friday, so it's either Saturday or Sunday, I remember Yo, it's Carrie: All right. Todd: which. And Brandon, my brother-in-law, her dad, comes over and he has a whole box of beer. He's like, we had so much beer left over. You gotta take all this beer. Cold beer. Well, that's always good, right? Cool. Yo, it's Carrie: That's cool. That's nice. Todd: And then I realized out of this probably 24 beers, I bet 14 of them Yo, it's Carrie: Uh-huh. Todd: are this weird high alcoholic beer that New Holland Brewing gave him that is almost undrinkable. He gave me the white elephant beer. Yo, it's Carrie: Wait, what is it called? Todd: It's called like Uber space machine or because they make a tangerine space machine that's pretty good, but this Yo, it's Carrie: Okay, it's not good. huh. Todd: one's almost ten percent alcohol. And I just Yo, it's Carrie: But is that why it's undrinkable or you don't like the taste? Todd: both. It's way too alcoholic for me for beer. I just can't do that high of an alcohol beer and drink Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Sure. Todd: it. It's not my gig. I drink like Budweiser's and stuff. Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: Cause I smoke, 'cause I live in Michigan, and that's my my drug of choice. Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. shoot. So Todd: And but so now I've got like thirteen of these beers in my fridge. I thought about bringing them to Will and then I thought he's not gonna drink either. I'm just passing this white elephant beer around. I've tried two or three of and I got through one. Yo, it's Carrie: I feel like you should experiment with it. I think you should maybe like serve it over ice and see if like as the ice melts maybe it becomes more palatable. Is it one of those like is it one of those like whiskey barrel beers or something? Does it have like a bourbon? Todd: Kinda, but it's not it doesn't have a wine or a bourbon taste to it. Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Todd: It's like a hazy IPA, but it's so alcoholic, and there's a couple other flavors going on like tangerine and stuff. I can't do it. And I can't decide if I should just throw it away or Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Okay. I like the citrus concept, but Todd: give it to somebody else. I can't honest to God, I mentioned it I mentioned it to Will and Will's Yo, it's Carrie: Just find out who would who'd be into it. Offer it to guests. Offer it to guests. Todd: like, Don't bring that shit over here. Yo, it's Carrie: I wish I were in town. I Todd: It's undrinkable. Yo, it's Carrie: would totally try one. Todd: I think you'd find it undrinkable. Does your mom like Yo, it's Carrie: I like funky beers. Todd: super alcoholic beer? Maybe I'll take it to her. She could have like fourteen of Aunt Nancy'll never wake up from the coma. Yo, it's Carrie: No. Definitely not. Definitely not her style of beer. I like funky beer, but I but if it's like if it's an IPA, I don't like it. Todd: Okay. Yo, it's Carrie: So Todd: Yeah, I don't know. Anyway, beers with Jesus, guys. Good beers with Jesus. What are you drinking? Corona? What's a premiere? Is that like a low carb? Hmm. I tried the Yingling Flight, which is the low carb. That's not bad, it's pretty good for light beer. Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah, the cor i it's the low carb and it's really nice. It's light. I I like I like all the corona. Yes. I like it. I like all of the I like all the yinglings. I like all of the Coronas. They're good. I like a Medello Todd: There was a few of those in that box and they were good. And then I realized I had like four good beers and sixteen white elephant beers. I was like, damn you, Brandon. No, I'm just kidding. No. Go ahead, have one. And then I watch Yo, it's Carrie: What Brandon's like, who can I give these to? Thank you for your generosity, Brandon. Sorry. Offer to guests. Just offer to guests as they come, you know? Todd: them just like not drink them. Like if I can't get through a beer, I get through half a beer. That's not a good I mean in my opinion, and listen, I'm Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: not a beer snob, especially now that I've ventured into other things. I've Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: gone to way lighter beer. I drink mostly like bud fat I'm drinking today, Bud Heavy. Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: Or, you know, Miller what what Miller? High Life. Things like that, yeah. So Yo, it's Carrie: Right. You do the Miller High Life, yep. Sure. Todd: pretty light beers. Or I didn't mind those carb ones. I had never drank but like the Engling fight was good. Yeah, so. Yo, it's Carrie: The Yangling flight is nice. But if you hand that to someone at at your house, you need to like, Give me the keys. Here's the beer. Like I need your I need your keys. Yeah. You gotta do a trade. Mm. Todd: that strong one? Yeah, no doubt. It is rough. So anyway. That's it reminds me of Yo, it's Carrie: Anyway, so work on that. Todd: reminds me of our story about Noah like a month or two ago. Remember where he Yo, it's Carrie: yeah. Yeah. Todd: planted the vineyard and got all sloshed? Wasn't used to the new environment Yo, it's Carrie: that's right. You accidentally got drunk. Accidentally got hammered. Go back and listen if you missed it. Todd: So listen guys, check out beers Yeah, go back and listen. We've got we're we're going through Genesis right now. We started in Mark originally, went through the book of Mark, and we just go through a story at a time, essentially. In most lately we've been doing chapters because that's kind of how it works out. But Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: but in Mark there was chapters where there, you know, there's like four stories about Jesus. And so we took our time going through Mark. And then we went through Yo, it's Carrie: Right. We really did. Todd: the Acts of the Apostles, which is fabulous. Now we're in the old testament Genesis, which is like the OG. The beginning. And it's fun. It's been great. And now Yo, it's Carrie: The OG. The O genesis. Yeah. Todd: we're at Abram and we're walking through the story of Abram slash Abraham, which is which is the name that he becomes. And never, I don't think, in all of our Bears of Jesus history have I had such a struggle going back and forth between Abram and Abraham. So if if I do know that we're talking about the same person. Yo, it's Carrie: You haven't struggled you've been totally fine. You've been fine. Todd: I don't know. I still think in terms. Every time I see it, I see Abram or Abraham. Okay. We're in ver we're in chapter sixteen this week. Genesis sixteen. We only read out of the message. The message version of the Bible, which was translated by Eugene Peterson. And I happen to love the message version. It's my my translation of choice. I happen to think it's the best. I really like the narrative layout of it. I'm I'm less the guy who has to have the exact precise word, you know. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: Then like Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: give me the story in a digestible form. Like a narrative form that's a good form. So yeah, Carrie just held one up. It's like six bucks you get a paperback message on a large print on Amazon. Yo, it's Carrie: You need the large print 'cause it's a regular size print. Todd: Yeah, you don't want to go small or you won't be able to see it. So but pick up the message if you haven't, that's what re we Yo, it's Carrie: I thought Todd: read out of. You can read out, you know what I always tell people? The best Bible translation is whichever one you'll read, because most people don't. Yo, it's Carrie: That's true. Todd: So if you have one that you like and you read it, perfect. If you don't try the message, you might enjoy it. So we're in Yo, it's Carrie: Cool. Todd: chapter sixteen of Genesis. Yo, it's Carrie: I thought we were reading seventeen this week. Todd: Mm. Carrie was all excited about circumcision. Yo, it's Carrie: I read the No, I'm really not. But I mean our pre show talk, I thought we were anyway, it's fine. Never mind. Todd: I don't know if you guys have listened much, but circumcision is a topic near and dear to Carrie's art. Okay. Genesis sixteen. Yo, it's Carrie: It can be interpreted in so many wrong ways. Okay. Okay. Todd: Sarai, Abram's wife, hadn't yet produced a child. She had an Egyptian maid named Hagar Sarai said to Abram, God has not seen fit to let me have a child. Sleep with my maid, Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: maybe I can get a family from her. Abram agreed to do what Sarai said. Just to to give people a little bit of context, S Abram and Sarai at this point are probably eighty six. Like he might be eighty six, she might be eighty five, something like that, I think they're a year apart or something. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. They're old. Todd: They're old. They're old as hell. Okay. Sorry. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: Eugene didn't write that one. That was Todd's World. Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: Is that in the footnote? Todd: It's the Todd's World study Bible. Abram and Sarai as old as hell. Okay. So so Sarai, Abram's Yo, it's Carrie: Ha ha Todd: wife, took her Egyptian maid Hagar and gave her to her husband Abram as a wife. Abram had been living ten years in Canaan when this took place. He slept with Hagar and she got pregnant. When Hagar learned she was pregnant, she looked down on her mistress, meaning Sarai. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: Sarai told Abram, It's all your fault that I'm suffering this is the most this is the most real story. It's all Abram's fault for her idea. Yo, it's Carrie: I was gonna say I was gonna say do not do not criticize Sarah because this is so so real. Okay, go ahead. Yep. Todd: It's all your fault that I'm suffering this abuse. I put my maid in bed with you, and the minute she knows she's pregnant, she treats me like I'm nothing. May God decide which is r which one of us is right, or which of us is right. You decide, said Abram, your maid is your business. I just love that. Yo, it's Carrie: dear. This is so bad. Todd: Sarai was abusive to Hagar, and Hagar ran away. An angel of God found her beside a spring in the desert. It was the spring on the road to Shur. He said, Hagar, maid of Sarai, what are you doing here? She said, I'm running away from Sarai, my mistress. The angel of God said, Go back to your mistress. Put up with her abuse. He continued, I'm going to give you a big family, children past counting. From this pregnancy you'll get a son. Name him Ishmael. For God heard you. God answered you. He'll be a bucking bronco of a man, a real fighter, fighting and being fought. Disagreeable, in other words. Always stirring up trouble, always at odds with his family. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: She answered God by name, praying to the God who spoke to her. You're the God who sees me. Yes, he saw me and then I saw him. That's how the desert spring got named God Alive Sees Me Spring. That spring is still there between Kadesh and Bared. Hagar gave Abram a son. Abram named him Ishmael. Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar gave him his son Ishmael. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: There you go, Carrie. I did my part, it's up to you now. Yo, it's Carrie: Wow. Nice read nice reading. my gosh. Todd: Just kidding. Yo, it's Carrie: This is such this is such a tough Todd: It's totally all Abram's fault, right? It looks like it. Start to finish. I th Yo, it's Carrie: S this is such a hard thing. But you know what? We're making all these jokes, right? We're making jokes about it because they're just trying they're trying to get an outcome. They're trying really hard to make something happen that God has promised. Todd: And not just any outcome, right? It's the promised outcome. Yo, it's Carrie: Right. They're like, hey, maybe we need to do something about this, you know, 'cause you I mean, Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: God planted this promise in them. He's he has expressed this to them before and it's not happening on its own. It's not happening, you know, without their involvement. And so they're old as hell, right? Todd: They're old as hell. That's the that's the title. Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah Abram and Sarai are old as hell. There you go, I love it. Todd: Waiting. Waiting on God when you're old as hell. Yo, it's Carrie: But I mean seriously, it's it's such a tough thing. So in their minds they're like, this is how it's supposed to be, it's not happening. We're gonna what can we do? And it's Todd: Right. Yo, it's Carrie: like, what can we do to speed this along? What can we do to reach the promise that God has promised us? And sometimes when we do that, we screw. Todd: Well and to be fair, they probably didn't think of it as speeding it along. They probably thought of it as just just make it happen. Apparently we're not like going about this the right way. I mean Yo, it's Carrie: Right. They did yeah, they didn't do this like a year after they were promised. This has been decades. Decades. Mm-hmm. Todd: No, God's God called him. First of all, he called Abram out of his home and in in Ur of the Ur the Chaldees. He starts off with with the he tells him to leave his home and leave his family and and leave Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: and and go to a city that God's gonna show Abraham brings his father Terah, his nephew Lot and his wife Sarai, and they and they take off. They don't they they get as far as Haran and they stop there until Terah dies. And then God Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: renews his call on Abram's life. This is about ten or eleven years prior to this, and Abraham takes off again and gets to the promised land. He's been in the promised land, it says here ten years. So he's gone where God has called him to go. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: He's done what God's called him to do. He's been faithful to God every step along the way. God's continued to bless him, Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: honor him, and make can make more promises to him to to to kind of clarify Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: this promise to him. He just did in the Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: passage we just had last week. Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Consistent messaging from God. Todd: God says, I'm going to make a great nation out of you. Look up at the stars, count Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: your descendants. That's how it's going to be. And and and Abraham, it says Abraham believed God, so he believes it. It doesn't necessarily say that Sarai did. But but we Yo, it's Carrie: No, we don't get to hear that part. Todd: but I think I think that the it's implied that she's on board and Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: they're both looking at this and they're saying, God wants to make something amazing out of you, Abram. At this point I don't think in in all that we've read God has specifically mentioned Sarai as being Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Todd: involved in the promise. He will. That's coming up very soon, maybe in the next chapter or two. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. It is in the next that I read thought thinking that was the next one. Todd: Gary did all the preparations this week on the wrong chapter. Yo, it's Carrie: Don't have high expectations for next week though, because that passage next week is a doozy and I really didn't know what to do with it. But no, I don't think I I think you're correct. He hasn't really talked about Sarah specifically, he like her reaction or anything like that. But Todd: A long time. Dude, you're 86. You're old as hell, you're not gonna have a kid. Like, people Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Right. Todd: don't have kids. Even back then, at this point, people they knew. Paul Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: talks earlier about how Abram's seed was dead and Sarah's womb was dead. Like they weren't idiots. They understood Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: you don't have kids at 86 or 100. Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: I mean if you're if you're a woman, Abraham obviously could could hook up with a younger chick and And Abraham's sperm is still working and so he can have a ha have a seed. Yo, it's Carrie: Sure. And Todd, was it common at this time to have multiple wives? Todd: It was somewhat common. Polygamy was somewhat was fairly common. Also the way this was done was Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: fairly common. I mean we get all hung up on slavery. Little things like the Civil War. But but but but but Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah, rightfully so. Todd: slavery has been we're it's hard for us because we look back fifty, sixty, a hundred years and think that it's this massive history. But really this is kind of a blip in world history that that And and probably the only reason we got to where slavery was eventually, by and large, outlawed in the in the civilized world is because of Christianity. Because of Christianity's Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. yeah. Todd: civilizing effect. You know what I mean? So back Yo, it's Carrie: Right. I think so. Todd: then you had slaves, and if you owned a slave, you owned the slave's womb. Your slave was yours to do with as they want. You could give her, you could do whatever you wanted. But Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: still there seems to be some kind of a recognition of At least for Abraham and Sarah, within this, of an importance of being married. I mean, Abram wasn't just he wasn't just gonna bang the slave. You know what I mean? And and so there was something about it because it says she gave him to her. Yo, it's Carrie: right. Todd: She gave her to her husband Abram as a wife. Right? Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: And so Yo, it's Carrie: I didn't know if that was literal or if that was just meaning that to to Todd: I mean I it sounds like it. Yo, it's Carrie: play the to play the part. I d I wasn't sure if it was meant that way. Todd: I guess I don't know for sure. I took it as as it was they they Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: were trying they were trying to do something that was culturally acceptable Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: that that they felt like maybe made a little bit of sense out of what God had told them. Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: Even if God didn't specifically tell them this way. I don't think God never acts like it's another thing. It's like Abram lying about Sarah being his sister when they go to Egypt. God never Abraham's never rebuked like this is wrong. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: But the one thing we can say, and this is the thing about polygamy, we see this all through the Bible. I cannot say that polygamy is ever, I don't think anywhere in the Bible specifically prohibited. But I can Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Todd: say that every single time we see it in the Bible, Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: it leads to almost always to chaos within that family. And it did here. Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: A as it would. Yeah. yeah, I think you're right. Todd: So so it's one of those things that seems to be maybe cultural in an aspect, and I'm not sure that God I'm not sure if you take another wife God considers a sin, but it might be the kind of thing where you're choosing a harder road. Does that make sense? Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Yeah. Totally. So I was thinking about this while you were reading. I thought, you know, they when this idea occurred to them, it must I bet it must have seemed like, my gosh, this is it. Like Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: this makes so much sense. Todd: probably. Yo, it's Carrie: Cause they obviously knew that Sarah was incapable Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: based on her age. I bet they were like, like this, here we go. This is what Todd: Well, it's interesting that it's it's interesting that Yo, it's Carrie: You know they probably were quite confident in it. Todd: it's Sarah that that broach that that that kind of concocts the whole plan. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: Like it's her it's her slay, her maid. And this Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: isn't the only time this happened. This is gonna we're gonna see this throughout Genesis. We're gonna it this is just not it's not an abnormal situation for this for this time, is my point. So Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Right. Todd: it's the same thing happened with Jacob when Rachel's barren, she gives him her her handmaid, he ends up having a couple kids with his hand. But eventually what what Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: I think's interesting about this is we're gonna find out later on that all of Abram and Sarai and Hagar's machinations and all of this Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: has zero to do with what God has planned. It neither Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: moves it ahead nor sets it back nor seems to have any effect at all except to make life a little more chaotic. Do you know what I mean? Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: And and God blesses. I mean, to be fair, when Hagar sees God, like like like like Ishmael's gonna be gonna have be a great Yo, it's Carrie: Right. The angel. Is it an angel? Todd: nation. Like God is God has his his hand on Abram. Right? What's that Hamilton song? History has its eyes on you. Yo, it's Carrie: Yes. Todd: That kind of thing. So, but but that can even widen out beyond Sarah and the Son of Promise into this. And she is blessed. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: And it's interesting that God tells her to put up with the abuse. I think. It's not in it's not surprising. The way this goes down doesn't surprise me. Like it probably doesn't surprise you. That the second Hagar, first of all, she's probably the younger, hotter chick, right? Although Sarah was beautiful. I mean every place she went Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Well Todd: they they wanted her so so and and Abram Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: doesn't seem like he was ever desiring that particularly. Yo, it's Carrie: Right. it seemed like they had a very solid partnership. She was clearly supportive, followed him in all of these ways. She was a faithful woman, believed believed God's Todd: Mm-hmm. Yo, it's Carrie: plan for them, you know, did all the steps, went to the the palace, you know, a Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: and all that. So i it seems like this is another example of her supporting him and wanting to fulfill God's promise. Mm-hmm. Todd: I think she I think she believes God but she thinks that maybe that God needs a little help. Or maybe not Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: that he needs a little help as much as as you know, there's that old saying it's not biblical, God helps those who help themselves. But that's Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Right. Todd: that kind of thinking and there is the the thing about that is it can be wrong. We can it can lead us that kind of thinking can lead Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: us in wrong directions, like I think it probably did here. Yo, it's Carrie: Right. We can screw it up by doing that. Todd: But sometimes it can be right. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: Sometimes God wants us. It's like He gives us a vision and He wants us to work toward it. And and sometimes Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: working toward it and finding our way there is a little bit on our own. Like it's a little trial and error and God kinda Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: z is letting us grow that way. You know what I mean? Yo, it's Carrie: Yes. The frickin' growth never stops. Todd: And so it's hard to know, like I I mean, people give Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: Abram a hard time and say, and and it may be true that he wasn't partic a particularly strong leader in his home. That kind of comes off that way, I guess, a little in this story, don't you think? I mean, yeah. He kind of goes along with Sarah, and then Sarah gets Yo, it's Carrie: Ooh, Abram? why do you Todd: mad at him and he's like, dude, it's your problem, not mine. She's your maid. Do you know what I mean? Like he doesn't seem to want to kinda take the bulls or the bull by the horns. You know what I mean? And kind of and kinda Yo, it's Carrie: Gotcha. That's interesting. I'm trying to think of Todd: deal with this w with his household. I mean, he's got one way he's Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: got his his the love of his life being abusive to this other and she shouldn't be. Like, regardless Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. No. Todd: of whether the whole the whole finagling polygamy was s was like out and out sin or not. It's certainly Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: sin to abuse anyone. To be Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: abusive to anyone and and certainly someone that's kind of under your charge or whatever, right? Yo, it's Carrie: Yes, that disappointed me. It surprised and disappointed me. but Abram, I hadn't thought of him Todd: But it's in response to Hagar being kind of a beatch, you know what I mean? Like Yeah, so so Hagar Yo, it's Carrie: Well, okay, wait, was she that's what I was trying to figure out what Todd: gets pregnant and suddenly Hagar feels like she's got and she does. She's one up Sarai, right? She's the one who could get pregnant and have a kid, and that's all Abraham really does. Is worried about because we we know in the last chapter Yo, it's Carrie: Ouch. Todd: he said to God, what good is all this, what good's all this blessing that you've given me if I don't have a son? Well now hey, and and I mean everybody in the household had to know I feel like how important God is to Abraham, Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: and how important God's promises are to Abraham, and this specific promise of I'm gonna I'm gonna have a a big line, like I feel like Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: they knew it. Now Hagar gets to feel like, hey. I'm the one. You know what I mean? Because that's what she thinks. Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Todd: That's what Abra that's what Abram and Sarai think. And that Yo, it's Carrie: I can imagine that, I guess. Todd: seems to provoke in Sarai that jealousy. So it it was it was almost like jealousy working both ways, 'cause it's kinda you know what I mean? Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Todd: And you can see how that would happen, right? I mean, you've been a wife. Yo, it's Carrie: hundred per hundred percent. I could totally imagine that. Todd: You could see how this kind of thing would go down between the women. Yo, it's Carrie: yeah, absolutely. like I said, I'm surprised and disappointed that s that Sarah is being abusive, but I can completely understand the jealousy. Especially especially since it's just been the two of them and they have had a supportive, you know, partnership and yeah, this i I'm sure Sarah I felt completely left out of the loop on, you know, the procreation Todd: Right. Yo, it's Carrie: and it's like crap, this Yeah, it's awful. I interpreted Abram's not as a weakness, but it could be. I'm just saying that I'm just wondering if men didn't concern themselves with okay, like his wife and her mistress Yes, it kind of made me kinda like you like yeah, Todd: Like the household kinda chick stuff, chicks fighting amongst each other. Yo, it's Carrie: like you handle that. To him I would think that would be petty. Although, you know, if you paused for just a moment, I think he would be like, this is not this is not a good situation. Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: but my impression is that he was just like, This these are womanly matters. Mm. Todd: Well, we can imagine how this kind of thing goes. First of all, Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: for Sarah and Abram to think that Sarah would get pregnant, they must have had for eighty six a pretty healthy sex life, right? Is that fair? They must have been Yo, it's Carrie: I know. Todd: mu they must have been banging it out, giving it a try. Right? Good for them. But but my my point in that my my Yo, it's Carrie: Good for them. I'm happy for them. Yeah. Todd: point in that is that And searching for this this one thing that's missing, which Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: is which God's promised him he's gonna provide. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: But to Abram it's like in Sarah, Sarah, you would know, don't you think, as a wife, she feels this in Abraham. She she would know that in him is this, yeah, but what good is all this when the one thing I want is a son, right? Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: Like that, like that would be that'd be a knife twisted in Sarah frequently, probably. Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: Maybe every time they have a great round the night before and she's thinking three weeks later, maybe, and then nothing. You know what I mean? I mean, how many times Yo, it's Carrie: Sure. Todd: do you go over and over and over the whole thing? Maybe she Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: gets a little sick in the morning and she thinks, my God, maybe this is it, and then nothing. You know, Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: how many times does that disappointment hit over and over and over? And then Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: and then you have this, and they do seem Sarah and Abraham seem to have a really loving like relationship. Well then you throw this chick in for this one thing, which is you want a kid. But the problem is it's hard to we talk about this with God, we talk about this with sin. It's hard to box things up. Whether this is Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: strictly sin or not strictly sin, it's hard to box it, it's hard to box Hagar up and keep her in her spot, right? Because now she's got Abraham's kid. Now Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: she's one of a she's a a wife to Abraham. There there's an intimacy between Abram and Hagar that Sarah is excluded from. Yo, it's Carrie: yeah. Todd: She maybe never thought about that. She was just thinking about the kid. You know what I Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: mean? Yo, it's Carrie: Exactly. Todd: But all of these things start all all of these problems Yo, it's Carrie: Ooh. It'd be really tough. Todd: this knot starts to get like tighter and more complex. You know what I mean? Trying to pull your Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah, yes. Todd: way out of it and you're like, this is not working. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: I don't know. What do you think? Yo, it's Carrie: I I agree with that. Todd: I mean as a as a woman, can you see Sarah can can you first of all see what why Sarah does it initially? Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: I I mean in this context, yes. Yes, I can. Mm-hmm. Yep. Todd: Of the of the culture you're in and the most important thing is this and we need to have and and she's your maid, she's your Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: slave, and if she has a kid it's your kid. You know, culturally. I mean that's how everybody looks at it. Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Yep, I think she sees it as a I think she sees it as a solution. Todd: Mm-hmm. Yo, it's Carrie: and it's, you know, someone they know and whatever. Todd: Right. Yo, it's Carrie: I I think so. But I then mm hmm but then I completely see, yeah, completely Todd: Someone already in the household? What could go wrong? Yo, it's Carrie: see the instantaneous regret on her part when Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: it's successful. Mm-hmm. Todd: And then I I wonder at what point well I think it's a while. We'll we'll we're gonna see this later on. I don't think that I think that Abram thinks that this is that God's gonna use this. And he thinks it for a long time. I mean I think he I think he thinks it Yo, it's Carrie: Sure. Ishmael? Todd: yeah, I think he thinks it for like the next thirteen years till Yo, it's Carrie: Yep. Todd: God until Isaac actually comes along. And it Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: well it gets to the point where God's real explicit. Yo, it's Carrie: I know spoiler alert for anyone who doesn't know the story. Todd: God comes to Abram again and he's talking about how he's going to bless him and his seed and everything. And Abram and Abram says something along the lines with, Yes, God, be with Ishmael, let him whatever. And God's like, I'm not talking about Ishmael. You gotta be like, all right. So 13 years in, Abram's living this, and he thinks this is who the promise, that that God's gonna fulfill Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: the promise through Ishmael and through Hagar, and and it takes a long time to realize Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Mm mm. Todd: that. the they went awry or that wasn't what God had intended. At least not from the promise part. You know what I mean? Now lives Yo, it's Carrie: Oops. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Todd: are messy. Maybe maybe, you know, and God shows up to Hagar. So I I mean, how are we to say how things should have gone? All we know is how things did go. And like Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: I say, anytime that you kind of step out that you're waiting for something, then maybe this is I was thinking about, well what do we get in our own life? Maybe God moves us into something and we think Maybe he moves us to a town and we think this is gonna be a great town. Like I'm gonna meet some good friends, I'm gonna Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Okay. Todd: get I've got this job and the job's pretty good, and I'm gonna find a church and I'm gonna do this and it's gonna be great. And then five years in you find you haven't found any of those things and you hate your job. Well, maybe you don't hate your job, but whatever. Point is you're just Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: kind of waiting for something and you kind of feel like God's dropped the ball a little. Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: Cause I mean it's been like five years or ten years in the case of Abram. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: And Sarah's not getting any younger. Didn't work when she was seventy six. Yo, it's Carrie: Been it's been eighty years. They're old as hell. Todd: They're old as hell. Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: You can't blame for maybe trying other things, I guess, is what I think. Or should they have Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: or or can we look at this and say, No, they should have waited on the Lord. Yo, it's Carrie: Well, I mean you sure, yeah, in hindsight it's Todd: I mean in hindsight, sure. You know. Yo, it's Carrie: easy to say that, but I like I I can completely imagine them coming up with this plan and thinking just this light bulb going you know, S Sarah having this thought and this light bulb going off, her pitching it to Abram and Abram being like, Yes, like this is probably what we're supposed to do. I'm sure they were incredibly confident in it. Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: I'm sure that it made because that's the thing too. when you're waiting on God or anything. I mean you can be waiting on anything. And if you just if there's no movement, it's difficult to make sense of it. Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: you're you're in a state of confusion. And so when something when a thought comes along, whether it's proper thinking or not, when the thought Todd: Mm-hmm. Yo, it's Carrie: comes along that connects the dots and makes and gives you a potential solution to the expected outcome or the hoped for outcome, whichever the case may be, I think that it's it's just incredibly easy to be like, That's it. That makes sense. I'm going Todd: Yeah. And it's going on all around us. I mean we see the whole culture is this is how it goes. So Yo, it's Carrie: Sure. Mm-hmm. Todd: what could possibly go wrong? Well women. Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Yeah. Todd: Women are the problem. I don't it but Yo, it's Carrie: no no. Todd: you could see this is did this with the these kinds of things, that's why I say with polygamy it always it always seems to lead to some kind of chaos within Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: within the family. It doesn't ever seem to work out particularly well. You're never like, Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: that worked out really well. I wish I had two more wives. You never you know what I mean? You're never left thinking that at the end of the story you're r reading these things out. So Yo, it's Carrie: Right. No. You know, this is super this is super common right now. I I know this is off off subject. well not polygamy, but polyamory, yeah. People Todd: What is? No, I wanted to hear about it. Polyamory and stuff. Mm-hmm. Yo, it's Carrie: in like not just not just like swinging or inviting like a third into their bed or whatever, but people who Todd: Not like a thruple. Yo, it's Carrie: yes, like people who are involved with with more than one person at a time at like Todd: Mm-hmm. Yo, it's Carrie: in the same in the same household, in the same relationship. And I feel like it's I don't know, I just feel like it's almost come into fashion. Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: I maybe it's always been this way. And maybe now it's just people are talking about it openly because of Todd: I don't think so. I think that it any any time you start to see the more of it's going on, I think. Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Todd: There's more society has gotten more permissive. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: Well, I mean, if obviously if you can decide whether you're a a guy or a chick, you know, if you Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: can if you can choose your gender, you can choose everything else. I mean why would you be Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: bound to the idea of monogamy that you need one man and one woman that Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: maybe God had a good idea on the front end. There's no reason to think that. If you're them, I mean you d you don't Yo, it's Carrie: Sure. Mm hmm. Todd: They don't give there Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: isn't they don't have a God, I don't think. Or or their God is their God is their belly, I think that's in the Bible. But their God is their flesh. It's it's just whatever we want. You know what I mean? And it doesn't Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Mm-hmm. I Todd: make a lot of sense if you think about I've always kind of thought this. Like if you think about the way the sexual passion is within within people. Or Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Todd: within men, I'm a man, whatever. But i it w within Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: people, it seems like why would Why would God give you this passion that that like is so wide ranging yet you're only supposed to stick in this little tiny thing? You know what I mean? Why Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: shouldn't people be able to be more open-minded and consensual about things and experience more? You know what I mean? Like there's there's a little bit of a there's a sense that can be made out of it. Just just like Abraham and Sarah. Like it can make some sense. You know what I mean? Like it could you know what I'm saying? Yo, it's Carrie: Gotcha. You you didn't go you didn't go where I thought you were going, but but yeah, no I I hear you. Well and it's Todd: And you only see it later on. It starts some of the things that again, I don't know sin or not are are not sin. They Paul seems to make a pretty strong case that anything Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: outside of monogamy is fornication or adultery or whatever in the New Testament. But yeah, the chaos comes on later. So you get the you Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Well I was gonna say, yeah, the chaos the the chaos is the result. yeah. Yep. Todd: get the fun on the front end. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: all the dopamine and then like a new sexual partner and all this fun stuff. And then as you try to incorporate that into your life, that's when you get the chaos later on. You know what I mean? And and I think Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm. Todd: it's I think it's almost automatic that you get it. Yo, it's Carrie: Is it in the did you ever see the king and eye? Do you remember that old musical? Todd: I don't think I did. Yo, it's Carrie: I feel like that's I feel like it's in the king and eye. The king says to the woman, I feel bad I can't remember her name. This is so old, but he says that man is like a bee and a woman is like a flower. The flower does not go from bee to bee to be. The the B goes from flower to flower to Todd: B goes from flower to flower. Yo, it's Carrie: flower. Yeah. Todd: Although to be fair, the flower was hit by a lot of bees. Yo, it's Carrie: Who Todd: just saying, I i within that particular there's a lot of bees stopping by over the course of a given day and the flower. Yo, it's Carrie: That's funny. That's funny. Todd: Just saying. Yo, it's Carrie: so yeah, that's that's interesting. Todd: Do you think it's always normal for there to be i some kind of a rivalry for there i in other words, if Yo, it's Carrie: Yes. Todd: if you have let's say you have two guys and one chick, two chicks, one guy, Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Todd: whatever the case, when you start to get beyond kind of marriage, one man, one woman, Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: there's always kind of envies and jealousies and there's just a lot Yo, it's Carrie: yeah. Todd: there's a lot to deal with and manage. Is that fair? Yo, it's Carrie: Yes. I I think we yes. While we while we are given this, you know, big passion and and Todd: Mm-hmm. Yo, it's Carrie: mate perhaps wide ranging desires, we are also hardwired to to bonding with and I think if you bond with a person, you then feel not in an unhealthy way, but I think you can use the word territorial protective, you know, you could be like, Hey, like, no. Todd: If you have sex with a person, do you believe in Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: what are those things called? Soul ties? Have you ever heard of that? The the idea is Yo, it's Carrie: Soul ties. Was that no, what is that? Is this like soulmate stuff? Todd: well the there's an idea not exactly. There's an Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Todd: idea, it would come from Paul in the New Testament that any Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: time a man and a woman have s sexual intimacy, that that there's a spiritual element of that which is kind of takes place and and therefore you you There's a certain tie between souls that develops. And it doesn't matter how many. You could have 50. You could have whatever. Yo, it's Carrie: Ha Todd: But somehow you're tied to these souls. Yo, it's Carrie: You can yeah. Todd: I guess. I I I I gotta tell you, I don't I'm not entirely sure I buy it. And I don't exactly Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Todd: even know. I just brought it up thinking you might have heard of it. I I didn't I didn't look into it to know exactly Yo, it's Carrie: I have not heard of that. Okay. Todd: what they think soul ties even mean. Other than Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Todd: I think maybe Okay, I'm gonna take the the the least crazy application of it and say that that maybe when you have sex with a lot of different people, your heart can be divided in different ways between different people, your affections maybe. Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Todd: That's gotta be the least crazy part of it, because I gotta believe that that they go into the afterlife and think other crazy things. Although I don't know exactly what. But but there's this Yo, it's Carrie: Gotcha. Todd: idea that that you're tying yourself to someone. I don't know. I I don't I I th there is some biblical basis for that. I wish I had the Paul thing right off the top. It's probably in First Corinthians. It's probably in First Corinthians. Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. I was gonna say Paul you mentioned Paul. I'm like Paul talks about that's interesting. Todd: If you can wax eloquent for a minute, I might can find it. Yo, it's Carrie: Well, I was just looking up okay, so I did just look up the term soul ties and it's a deep intense Todd: Okay. Yo, it's Carrie: emotional mental or spiritual connection between two people. that I think that can happen that can happen without, but it does say sexual intimacy you know, is widely believed to create a powerful spiritual and chemical bond. So I'm gonna say this. If you if you are connected with someone emotionally Todd: Mm-hmm. Yo, it's Carrie: and then you are then you physically get involved with them, yeah, you I do think you develop a a stronger connection and tie to that person. I think if it's again, it's like anything. If the if the spirit of it is caring and Todd: It's not just physical, in other words. Yo, it's Carrie: right. I if if the spirit of the act is is about connection and caring for someone, then yes, that is going to happen. If you are out and you just Yeah. Todd: I think a lot of the reason you see polyamory and stuff is because I think by and large people think that the that it's just a physical act that can be divorced of the emotional and the spiritual. Don't you think that's that that our culture seems to to think that way? Yo, it's Carrie: Well, sure. I was gonna say, if you just go out you are drinking and dancing at a bar and you meet someone attractive and you hook up, are you like con you have a soul tie with that person? Probably not. I Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: I mean now I will say this. They say chemically, you know, women have a response to to sex and it impacts them chemically, like hormonally, mhm, that there's like a connection. But I do think again Todd: Chemically. Yeah. So a different connection with a guy that they've slept with and a guy that they haven't. Chemically. Brain brain juice wise. Yo, it's Carrie: y yes. I think s chemically they say that. But but I wanna yeah. Yes, but I do wanna say if a if a woman just goes out and again just hooks up with someone she doesn't know, yeah, if you connect to that guy, like I I feel like you you might need to talk to someone. 'Cause like you don't even know that person. Todd: Do you think there's a there's a sense in which well, obviously there is that that we can you know, people can sear their conscience. Can you take that so in other words, is there is there is what's underlying some of your idea that with it with women there's a certain connection that that comes specifically through physical intimacy, maybe through men and women both. I do too. Yo, it's Carrie: think I think through both if if you if the spirit of it is like setting the stage for that, yes. Todd: But do you think either men or women Yo, it's Carrie: Uh-huh. Todd: can to some extent kind of sear off their conscience and their spirit enough that it it isn't having the impact on them because the or or am I wrong? Is that not? Or is it still having the impact? They just don't know it. You know what I mean? I I don't know. You know what I mean? Yo, it's Carrie: yeah, so I think the impact yeah, the impact the immediate impact is not the same. the long term impact I think is is probably like an emptiness if you have a series of emotionless, meaningless, you know, sexual what's the word? Encounters. Todd: Mm-hmm. Yo, it's Carrie: I mean after a while, like it's it's it's just it's empty. Todd: But we're already assuming, and I to be fair, this is Beers of Jesus, and I think Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Todd: that the Bible carries along this assumption, that there's Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: more to sex than just the physical act. There'd be a lot Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: of there'd be a lot of people that in our society that would not we we couldn't get there. You know what I mean? They so that Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: would they wouldn't give a they wouldn't take that as a given, I don't think. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Mm. Todd: You'd like to think they would, but I don't think I think a lot of people would be Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: like, nah, it's just whatever. You know what I mean? Yo, it's Carrie: yeah. I I think that's I think that that is a young view. Some people might think that that's like a culturally repressed it's like no. I just think that's an immature view. Because there 'cause there's res Todd: Okay. They just haven't lived long enough to see it. Yo, it's Carrie: Right, like they don't know. 'Cause I'm sorry, Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: anyone who has had sex with someone they don't really know or care about and then has had sex with someone who they love or care about deeply will I mean It's undeniable. It's undeniable that there's a difference. Todd: Big difference. Okay. Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. What do you think? I mean that's men too, I assume. Todd: I agree, I think. But but I just I think culturally a lot of people the the the question is, okay, I think that a lot of those people would say that can be true. I think what Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: what the culture that we live in that seems to be predominant would have a big problem Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: with is the idea that that can't be that that that that spiritual emotional side it should be able to be turned on and off like a switch. You should be able to hop into it and just have physical fun like you're disc Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: golfing if you want. And then but if you're disc golfing with someone you love, it means more. Do you know what I mean? I'm just saying they think that like, well anything Yo, it's Carrie: Where did disc golf come from? It's a this is a great Yeah. Todd: you would do with someone you love might me might be more fulfilling. Right? Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: But Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: They have the idea that you can have the one without the other. I think I Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: think biblically that we would agree that the Bible seem God seems to paint the picture that you can't. That that Jesus says what God has joined together, Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: let not man, you know, tear apart, referring to divorce. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Todd: So there's some idea that God like he gives Eve to Adam as a helpmate and and they're to to help each other. and so the Bible does And and listen, I would like I I can't say that this isn't my preference. I don't prefer that the Bible would come down squarely on the side of monogamy. It just seems to. Yo, it's Carrie: You f you would not prefer that. Todd: Well, not necessarily, I'm saying. Yo, it's Carrie: Right, right. Todd: But like it does seem like I just am saying like that's just reading it, guys. I I don't know. Yo, it's Carrie: Ha ha ha Todd: I I I and and it's really hard to read it It's hard to think, okay, I'm gonna give myself, I'm I'm gonna give lordship over my life to Jesus in every area except this one. This one I get to flip the switch. And when I'm Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: on the on switch in the emotional side, I want Jesus to bless the intimacy with whoever I'm with. But some of the time I just wanna be able to run around like a rabbit. You know what I mean? I think that we think that way. Yo, it's Carrie: Sure. Well yeah, I mean we do that we do that in all areas of our life. Todd: So I I guess I think that the Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: what we learn maybe from Abram and and Sarah is the just we can't confine anything. Could be sin, could be good, could be anything. We can't con confine anything into our boxes and our areas of life because Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: God just hasn't made us that way. Like we're we're we're spiritual and physical people. And it's all a big mess. We can't we can't we can't pull those sides of ourselves apart. Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: gotcha. Our physical and spiritual parts. Okay, that's yeah, that's a great way of looking at it. I meant to tell you earlier in this conversation that I know a therapist who talked about the the increase like the seeming increase in polyamory and these Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: polyamorous relationships. And and this therapist shared that every like every single person she talks to in these situations. It's like it's a mess. It's cha Todd: It's a shit show. Yo, it's Carrie: it's a shit show. Big time. And I'm like, Todd: Yes. Yo, it's Carrie: that surpr that doesn't surprise me at all and ex for exactly this Todd: No. Yo, it's Carrie: reason. You see this with Sarah and Hagar and it's like, nope. It's like she's she is thinking that's my man. And yeah, it's completely normal. They're Todd: Right. They're both thinking that's my man. Yo, it's Carrie: you're right. You're right. They probably both are. Because Hagar's carrying his son. Yeah. Todd: And then they get to fight about it. Right. Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: Yeah, and then one Yo, it's Carrie: So you're right. Todd: has more legitimacy, which has more legitimacy, it just becomes a mess. Yo, it's Carrie: Right, is it about seniority or is it about your ability to to provide an heir? I know. I mean Todd: Right. Conceive. Right. Yo, it's Carrie: this is this is really very understandable. Todd: And we haven't even gotten into I mean we could get and I we're not Yo, it's Carrie: Ha ha. Todd: going to today because there's too many crazy in our culture there's too many crazy paths we could go down. But I mean you could go down Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: surrogacy, you could go there's just all kinds of like w of Yo, it's Carrie: yeah, that's true. Todd: moral quagmires, I would call them. You know what I mean? Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Mm-hmm. Todd: Or at least they may be moral quagmires. I don't Yo, it's Carrie: Complications, yeah. Todd: I think that that that if Yo, it's Carrie: Emotional complications. Todd: we give ourselves If we follow Jesus, I think those Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: complications become easier to work through. I feel like maybe this isn't completely fair to Abram and Sarah, I don't know, but I feel like Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: at least in a New Testament modern, like we have the Holy Spirit, you know, Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: Jesus died on the cross, the whole thing. I feel like if if if you bring this kind of thing, so so so say you were Abram and Sarah and you felt like God had this this plan for your life, you didn't just feel like it, he told you over and over again. Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: And you believe it, but you think maybe this is maybe maybe this is the way for you to help it along. I Yo, it's Carrie: Yep. Todd: feel like if you took a month or two and really together laid that out before God, I feel like he'd lead you in the right direction on that. Do you know what Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: I mean? And then he'd be like, Well, maybe I don't need your help. It's possible Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: I could do this on my own. Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: I don't know why he waits until it seems almost impossible to finally show up. But that seems to be what God does. And that's I mean that's all through. That's all through the story. So you either gotta come to terms with that and believe it or not. Because that's Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: the God represented is he likes impossible stuff. He likes to make the possible out of impossible. Yo, it's Carrie: Well right, don't I mean don't you think that's why he waits? He waits until it's so it's so so impossible for this to be happening Todd: It's ludicrous. Yo, it's Carrie: right. that when it does happen it can only be attributed to him. Todd: Yeah, I think you're right. And that's the answer. He's he's he's he's in the business of Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: glorifying himself and Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: and and having a plan and making us perfect and all Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: these things and he's gonna do it. I think maybe that's the biggest thing to take out of out of this is that Yo, it's Carrie: Okay. Todd: this has zero impact on what God's gonna do. What God's gonna do through Sarah and through Isaac Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: and through the whole thing. It only makes it more difficult. For th us f here. Do you know what I mean? As far as Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Todd: God's concerned, I think he's like, I don't I mean if you want to try it the anchor way, but it's gonna get a little messy. You know? Yo, it's Carrie: Well and it sounds like Ishmael's gonna be a little bit of a problem child. Todd: Yeah. So but yet he's Abraham's Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: son. And we're we're gonna see this is not this is the beginning of this story, this this story within the story of Abram and Sarah. This is the beginning of throwing in Hagar and Ishmael, and it's not the end. Like we're gonna see this this this continues and it in it in it and it continues to be a struggle. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: So that means for 13 years, probably. To a smaller or lesser Yo, it's Carrie: How awful. Todd: extent on any given day, Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: this is what Abraham got this what Abraham got to live with. Couple different Yo, it's Carrie: Yikes. Todd: tents to visit once in a while. Did you ever watch Big Love? That HBO show. And they have like three houses set up, and he's a Mormon. He's Yo, it's Carrie: I did not. I did not. Right. Todd: got three wives, and he has to visit different ones on different days. And then the other wives will Yo, it's Carrie: Right, they're assigned days, right? Todd: be getting mad at him. Or then they have these weird affairs where they'll sneak off with one wife and the other wives won't know. And the whole thing is just craziness. Yo, it's Carrie: my gosh. I heard it was a good show. I think it was on a channel that I didn't have at the time. Like it was HBO. Yeah. Todd: From start to finish. It was HBO, so probably, yeah. And it was Bill Paxton. Yo, it's Carrie: I love Bill Paxton. And I I was gonna say I remember like in yeah. I think so. Was it yeah. That's right. Todd: I think it's yeah, it's Bill Paxton, that's what it was. He was in Tombstone. He was White Earth's younger brother, yeah. Morgue. Yo, it's Carrie: But I heard but I'm sorry, no, I'm always just sad that I'm sad that we lost him so early. Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: but I heard that show was good, but I remember people talking about the drama, just the drama of it. Todd: It did a good job of of yeah of of pointing out there's so much drama. Like if you Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: think about your typical men and women, like a just a typical dating, two a a guy and a girl, Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: you know, trying to figure things out, all the different things, not necessarily being married, but but the whole mating dance and whatever that goes into Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Right. Todd: life. And then you just start complicating it by adding a few more. It's like who could who could get through that? Yo, it's Carrie: gosh. Right. It's funny. Todd: You know? So I I I think that that's I I do think it's interesting that that God's gonna do what God's gonna do anyway. And so Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: we have to make sure that when we're stepping out that we lay that before God and and and that we listen. 'Cause you know, sometimes we can put something before God, we come to God, we can pray about something, but we've already decided it's gonna be a lot of fun banging hangar. You know what I mean? Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Well, and I think too we Todd: I'm not saying Abraham dead, but you don't know. Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Yeah, and I was gonna say, and I think too, when when we think we have found the solution and then we do pray about it, we're just only looking for what is it called? Conf like confirmation bias. Todd: Yes. Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah, we're just looking for all the answers that are in alignment with what we want to happen. You Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: know. I mean who nobody nobody wants to hear no. Todd: Jesus doesn't work very well that way. Like he's not great to go to for your confirmation bias. You know what I mean? Yeah, you see that Yo, it's Carrie: No, well it's because no Todd: all through the gospels. You know, it's funny too because the disciples did the same thing. Remember, Jesus was Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: telling them, I'm I'm gonna go to the cross, the religious leaders are they're gonna offer me up, and then I'm gonna rise again. And then Peter's like, No, you're not doing any of those things. God forbid. Like like I got a better way. I can improve a little bit on this idea. They did it all the time. Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: It i it's our i it's within us to think God calls us to something. He has Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: a plan, he's gonna do this, and we think, Yeah, I could probably help. I could probably I probably got some ideas that we could incorporate. You know what I mean? Yo, it's Carrie: Yep. I it's true. It's difficult to know when you're supposed to when you're supposed to do your part, like we've talked about, and when Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: you're supposed to wait. And just wait. It's hard. Todd: Well, and it's hard. The the the the sexual part is really hard because that that desire is so you know Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: inflamed, I guess. That's I think the word C. S. Lewis would would use for it. He talks about how if you lived in a society where Yo, it's Carrie: That's a good word. Thank you, C.S. Lewis. Todd: they would have a tease show where they would slowly pull the towel off like a whole Thanksgiving meal and then the lights Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: would go down, you would think maybe the maybe the the need for hunger has gone a little awry in this particular society. And and Yo, it's Carrie: That's funny. Todd: and he is right. I mean there there is something that that within us that seems to be a a a something that we just constantly fall into as as humans. It seems to be Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: a hard one. It doesn't seem like it should be that hard just to well God designed this and we can just go with this, but it's it's hard. You know? Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: It's not it it's not easy. Now that's what what did he say? Marriage is where is is was meant to contain sexuality because it can contain it and it and it can thrive there. But Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Right. Todd: then what if what if the promise takes ten years, twenty years, twenty five years? Like, can you hold on that long? Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: It's a that's it's it's hard. It's asking a lot. I I mean Abraham still did. He still believed God when he came back. And and once it became clear that the ish that Ishmael was not gonna be the answer to that, Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: you know, I mean Abra Abram Abram Abram wa gave it to God and trusted him with it, and and when God Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: made it clear, that's I know you had some big plans, but that I I Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: I planned things a little differently. Abraham accepts that. There's almost a It there's an implied repentance if not a direct repentance in that where we're where when God shows you the the his adjusted plan that didn't need your help to begin with, Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Todd: that if you can take it with the lumps you've been given and the extra chaos that you've inserted into your life, he'll still bless you. You know what I mean? You can still You're not gonna ruin it. Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Actually, that is right, and that's that's actually a perfect transition to like Hagar's experience at the end of this. Todd: Yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: Because Hagar's like she's f she just flees. She's like, This I I'm not staying for this. This is awful. And Todd: Mm-hmm. Yo, it's Carrie: then she's told turn around and and that he will that he'll bless them. Doesn't he say that? That he'll Todd: Yeah. I'm gonna give you a big family, children past counting. Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. I'm gonna give you a big family. Mm-hmm. Todd: So so so it is true that the promise that was given to Abram transfers Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: to Hagar, to anything that Abram is is getting involved, Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Mm-hmm. Todd: but that involvement has its own costs. Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: Specifically for Abram. And and Sarai and Hagar, yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: Yes, that's true. Well and Hagar, I mean if she's being yeah. Todd: And God's telling her to go back and and deal with abuse, Yo, it's Carrie: But go back. Todd: that's not something that I mean, a lot of times we think, you know, if you had a battered woman who was getting beat up by her husband and now I Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: understand that's probably not what was going on here. We're talking about Yo, it's Carrie: Okay, yeah. Todd: Sarah's probably not beating Hagar. I don't think. She's abusive, yeah. Yo, it's Carrie: Right, I was gonna say I just get the impression they're being unkind to one another. Yeah. Todd: One would think emotionally or verbally or whatever. And Yo, it's Carrie: Right. I hope. I mean I mean that's bad too, but Todd: I she was a slave, I guess, so you don't ever know, but yeah, I know. So who knows what's what at that point. Yo, it's Carrie: Well she I mean she's her mistress or her maid. She's her maid. Anyway. Mm-hmm. Todd: The one interesting thing about this is that she's an Egyptian maid, and you wonder if the whole reason that Hagar's there is because of the little fib that Abraham told about Sarah when they went down to Egypt. Remember and they gained a bunch of of men it says men servants and maidservants or whatever. Like they they Yo, it's Carrie: Right. Todd: got a lot of wealth that they came out of. Probably it was out of that excursion that Hagar came. You know what I mean? And Yo, it's Carrie: Gotcha. Mm-hmm. Todd: Who knows? She could have been young. She could have been a a because this has been who knows eight years since now. So I mean you Yo, it's Carrie: Mm. Todd: could have a sixteen year old who's now twenty four, or whatever. You know what I mean? We kind of grew up in the family, and you would have thought, well, this sh if you're Abraham or Sarah, you think, but this should work. She's part of the family. We we've been everything has been working out, you know, we get along fine. What's the worst that could happen? Well Yo, it's Carrie: She's a hot hot young piece of Hagar. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Worst that can happen is she gets pregnant, the first go. Damn. Todd: And she's like, I don't know if you knew, but I got a really fertile womb. Yo, it's Carrie: Ouch. Todd: And I don't know if you knew this about Abram, but that's pretty much all he cares about. Yo, it's Carrie: Ha ha ha! yeah Todd: Anyway. Yo, it's Carrie: but but yeah, it is Todd: It's an interesting it's it's a it's an it's another alternative when you're waiting on God, this is this is one alternative path you can go down, which is trying to help out and doesn't always work out. Perhaps we should have Yo, it's Carrie: Yep. Throwing a Todd: a little caution on the front end. Yo, it's Carrie: throwing a cog in the what do they say? Throwing a a cog in the wheel. Is that what they say? Yeah. Todd: Yeah, something like that. It is it is definitely that. Throw in try you think one woman's tough, try two or three. Right Maybe it's the same for a guy, I don't know. Like one guy, Yo, it's Carrie: Ooh Yeah. Women are I don't know. Todd: maybe try two or three guys, it'd be more of a pain, I don't know. Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah, I wonder I wonder dynamic I seriously no, I my brain just went there because how many bees 'cause I just wonder I wonder Todd: How many D's can you handle in a day? Yo, it's Carrie: how how men dynamically re react to that scenario because I I know how women I know how women are, but I don't know how men are like that. Probably depends on a bunch of things. Todd: Probably jealous. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: We're all jealous. We all want to say mine about everything. You know what I mean? And that Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Sure. Todd: that makes the the free exchange of sexual partners a little more difficult. Right? Plus all the bugs floating around out there these days. Yo, it's Carrie: Yes, definitely. Yeah. It's the it's the thing that makes the it's it's one of the things that makes monogamy work. Todd: It does. Yo, it's Carrie: Yep. Todd: Well, what do you think, Harry? I thought we did a pretty good job with this passage. We're this story's gonna continue. I mean, this is the this is like the first part of this Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Right. This is just the beginning. Todd: story we're getting into and in the story of Abraham, of Abram's continuing. When we get to we got Sodom and Gomorrah coming up, and then in 20, yeah, we're gonna pick back up with Yo, it's Carrie: boy. Todd: with Abram and Sarah. So fun stuff coming, guys. Listen, Yo, it's Carrie: All right. Todd: check out Todd'sworld.net, all the books are there. my memoirs there, which I was thinking about starting to record an audiobook today. I was thinking I should l start laying down some tracks for that. Yo, it's Carrie: cool. Do it. It's like chilly out chilly outside. It's a good day for it. Todd: Speaking of all the chaos that can come into one's life, Yo, it's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: check out Leaves the Blue Way is my memoir. Or Witness Insurrection, great books out there. Yo, it's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: Wildly Opinionated News Hour, if you haven't, is is a great listen. last week's was fantastic. Carrie was is always on her game. Yo, it's Carrie: my gosh, I don't know. I don't know where you get this. I'm Todd: And next week we'll be back with another wildly opinionated news hour. That is gonna be no Lindsay Clancy none of the time. Ha ha ha. Yo, it's Carrie: Yay. I'm glad. I'll be glad to be done talking about that sad story. Yep. Thanks for joining us though. Todd: Me too. All right, guys. Carrie, thanks for yeah, thanks for joining me today, Carrie. It good. All right. We did what we could. We will catch you guys next time. All right. See ya. Yo, it's Carrie: Good to see you. We did. Sounds good. Thank you. Bye.