Latest / Love Conquers Fear / #10: AI-Powered Engineering and Solving Apparel Industry Waste with Morgan Linton

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#10: AI-Powered Engineering and Solving Apparel Industry Waste with Morgan Linton · Love Conquers Fear

0:00
I see engineering in a lot of ways as a creative endeavour.
0:04
I see AI helping engineers do what they do better and automate
0:09
away some of the things that they shouldn't have to do.
0:13
So they're using their brain and their own abilities to their
0:17
best potential. It's a foundational shift in how
0:19
software is written. Where?
0:21
Are we at with AI powered engineering 1000 days from now?
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The two key areas that I see are hallucinations in memory over
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50% of apparel that is purchased online and returned goes
0:33
directly to a landfill or an incinerator.
0:35
Fit preference is very unique by person and you really can't have
0:39
AI prescribed fit. We have an AI technology that
0:43
it's core predicts body measurements, creates
0:45
essentially an AI digital twin. And so we're able to do is show
0:49
shoppers when they're looking online, not only here's the size
0:52
we think you'd wear, but here's how it fits on your body and
0:55
went on a backpacking camp for there.
0:57
We're all hanging out. And I felt this incredible deep
1:02
sadness and this need to cry. I don't know what I'm crying
1:06
about. Two days later I got a letter
1:08
and that was the day of my grandmother and at about that
1:11
exact time. I don't have an explanation for
1:14
that. Yeah, but clearly I cannot
1:16
explain everything the science. Hey everyone, welcome back to
1:25
Love Conquers Fear. I promise to report back to you
1:30
on how the dinner went with former Governor Rick Perry and
1:34
Brian Hubbard at our home. That was actually just two
1:39
nights ago and it was really amazing.
1:44
Brian Hubbard, I would say, is one of the top three speakers
1:49
I've ever seen in my entire life.
1:51
I know that sounds kind of audacious, but it but it's
1:54
really true. I mean, he speaks with a level
1:56
of conviction and passion for the mission that he's on to save
2:02
vets and save those that are really suffering, that are
2:06
opioid addicts, that are Alcoholics or, you know, a
2:10
suicidal debt because they've had so much PTSD from seeing
2:14
wartime that Ibogame cures them in one dose, which, you know,
2:21
show me the efficacy of any pharmaceutical drug doing that.
2:26
The stories at the dinner that we hosted at our home were just
2:32
unbelievable. I mean, people went around the
2:35
table and the testimonials of how ibogaine had improved their
2:41
lives personally were off the charts.
2:44
I mean, as I said on the last episode, I've never personally
2:47
done ibogaine, although as you know by now I'm very pro
2:51
psychedelic and have seen a transformation in my lives in
2:57
part triggered by understanding the nature of our reality and it
3:02
being rooted in love and seeing that through psychedelic
3:06
journeys. But I've also seen that through
3:08
meditation and I've seen that through other means.
3:12
And I would consider myself someone who's been spiritual for
3:14
a long time in my life, but I had never had that deep, deep
3:20
experience with God or Source or consciousness or the astral
3:24
plane or the river or whatever you want to call it.
3:26
There's so many words for it, the universe.
3:30
Until actually I did psychedelics and anyways, the
3:35
the stories going around, including from, you know, former
3:38
Governor Perry himself on his ibogaine experience were just
3:44
amazing. So consider me now very
3:46
intrigued in terms of ibogaine. I probably will not do ibogaine
3:52
personally until many years from now.
3:57
I, I want to wait until there's a point in time maybe where I
4:00
feel like I need to DH my brain right now, my brain feels like
4:03
it's working just fine because it's a very intense journey.
4:08
You know, we, we talked about it around the table and Brian
4:11
Hubbard in particular was very transparent about how intense it
4:14
is. He's like, look, it's some of
4:16
the most difficult 48 hours, maybe the most difficult 48
4:20
hours you're ever going to have in your life.
4:22
If you do an ibogame journey, you know, the journey itself is
4:25
18 to 24 hours of of extreme intensity where you relive every
4:31
moment in your life and face it head on, including the most
4:35
traumatic moments. But what that does to your brain
4:39
is it allows you to reset. And he says when you when you
4:43
come out of that 48 hours later, you feel like a new person and
4:49
you have all of your memories and everything's intact.
4:51
And you know, even though it's quote UN quote rewired your
4:54
brain and increased your neuroplasticity and actually de
4:58
aged your brain. And we know this through brain
5:01
studies at Stanford that have seen how much it de ages the
5:06
brain of that's that were suicidal before that took
5:09
ibogaine. The average is about 1.5 years
5:13
of de aging because the actual Gray matter around their brain
5:16
regrows. But you come out of that feeling
5:20
like you're free again. You know, you're reborn in a way
5:24
with all of your memories intact.
5:26
But these these vets who literally can come back from
5:31
combat and their spouses don't even recognize them and they're
5:33
really broken people come back renewed.
5:38
So I think we raised a lot of money for the Americans for
5:41
Ibogaine initiative. And the purpose of this
5:45
initiative is really to save people, give them a new chance
5:48
at life. And that initiative now scaling
5:52
state by state. It started in Texas proudly.
5:55
And you know, the 50 million in funding passed by the Texas
5:59
House and signed off by Governor Abbott is more psychedelic
6:05
research funding than has ever happened in human history, not
6:09
just since the Nixon administration, but ever.
6:12
I did not know that. So it really is historic in
6:16
terms of what's happening. And the goal here for the
6:19
Americans for Ibogaine initiative, which Deborah and I
6:21
are now proud donors to, is to allow this to become federally
6:27
approved to help save these vets and opioid Dicks and and others,
6:34
which would be incredible for our country.
6:37
And to be clear, it would be approved in a very prescribed
6:42
fashion under, you know, clinical observation, you know,
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at a retreat center where people are really monitored and taken
6:51
care of. But wow, you know what, how, how
6:55
amazing would that be? And you know, one, one way to
6:59
think about it is like, why is the why is RFK and why are, you
7:04
know, former Governor Rick Perry and Brian Hubbard, you know,
7:08
doing this starting with ibogaine?
7:11
Well, there's no way you could make the claim that ibogaine is
7:15
something that people would want to use as a street drug.
7:18
I mean, who would want to go to a party and say I want to do an
7:21
18 to 24 hour terrifying journey to reset my brain?
7:26
It's just not going to happen, right?
7:29
There are people who go to a party and maybe they'll do like
7:31
mushroom chocolates and you know, have like a better
7:34
experience with colors and stuff like that.
7:36
I personally don't do that. I, when I do psychedelics, I do
7:39
them for deeply spiritual reasons at a retreat center
7:42
where I'm under very careful supervision and the journeys I
7:47
do around 3 1/2 to 4 hours long, not a 18 to 24 hour long
7:52
journey. So I haven't had that type of
7:53
suffering in my life where I feel the calling.
7:56
But the thing that intrigues me the most about ibogaine is it in
8:00
some cases it is actually ADH people's brains by five years or
8:05
more in one dose. I've just never heard of
8:07
anything like that. I mean, there's we should know,
8:10
right? I mean, shouldn't we know why
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that's even possible instead of treating, you know, ibogaine or
8:18
any psychedelic as taboo? And oh, I don't do drugs.
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But yet almost anybody that says that certainly drinks alcohol.
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And as I reminded you, I don't drink alcohol anymore.
8:29
There's no efficacy studies of alcohol that shows that it's
8:33
beneficial to your body or brain in any way at all.
8:36
As a matter of fact, it's being linked even more and more to
8:39
cancer. But I can show you tons of
8:41
efficacy studies around psychedelics that making your
8:44
brain work better, making you more cognitively aware.
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My brain has become much more aware and, and much more
8:54
photographic in terms of my knowledge retention since
8:57
starting this journey myself. And I feel much happier too.
9:01
I had a great life before, but my life is even better now.
9:05
So anyways, I want to report back to you on the dinner.
9:09
You'll be hearing a lot more about the Americans for Ibn
9:12
initiative as scales up nationwide.
9:15
And hopefully, you know, knock on wood, this will lead to
9:18
federal legislation that actually makes this drug
9:21
available to really help people that are suffering.
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So you may wonder why the different background here?
9:28
So I'm actually in Lake Tahoe today and I'm on the road
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meeting with a very, very good friend, Morgan Linton.
9:39
So, Morgan, it's good to have you here, man.
9:41
Brett, Honor, total honor to be here.
9:43
Yeah. I.
9:44
Appreciate, I appreciate you letting me stay at your
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beautiful home and you know, 7200 feet elevation and just
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gorgeous. Gorgeous.
9:52
Glad you didn't get altitude sickness.
9:54
You look totally fine. Exactly.
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Survive the first night. Yeah, yeah.
9:58
Like I said, all I need to do is take 111 Tylenol and then I'm
10:02
fine. Perfect.
10:03
Just one Tylenol. The same thing happens to me.
10:06
I go to the Aspen Action Forum every year.
10:09
It's for the Aspen Institute and Aspen's at a very high altitude.
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I love that conference, but I just need to take one Tylenol
10:17
and then I'm good. So it's beautiful.
10:21
I mean, it's, it's, I didn't realize that the Nevada actually
10:25
is the most mountainous state in the United States.
10:28
Like how how many people know that?
10:30
I mean, everybody kind of associates it with Vegas.
10:32
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And especially, you know, I
10:34
don't think a lot of people know that there is, you know, a huge
10:38
amount of Lake Tahoe that's on the Nevada side.
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And a lot of that, when it was originally developed, they
10:44
decided to preserve a lot of it as National Forest land.
10:47
So it's also one of the most preserved parts of Lake Tahoe
10:52
and the Tahoe National Forest. Yeah, yeah.
10:54
Yeah, it's gorgeous. Yeah, you, you and your wife
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Dana have really set up a beautiful life together here.
11:01
We're happy so. We miss you in Austin, but but
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but we're happy for you guys. Thank you.
11:06
So you and I know each other because we met when you and Dana
11:13
were in the Tech Stars class in Austin.
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So maybe we just start, start with that like how we met and
11:20
what you're doing now with both metrics?
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Yeah, yeah. And you may not even know.
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I realize I don't know if we've even talked about the early,
11:26
early part before we met you, because when I was, I can't
11:32
remember who I was talking about.
11:33
I was talking to somebody about the Austin startup scene and the
11:37
tech scene. And they said, well, at the kind
11:40
of core ethos of the Austin tech scene is this company called
11:43
Bizarre Voice. And it's kind of one of our like
11:46
banner companies. And the founder, Brett, he's
11:49
this amazing guy who's like very philanthropic and very involved
11:53
in the startup scene and also an active Angel investor.
11:56
And I remember going to Austin, going to Tech Stars and talking
11:59
with Dayton and saying we've got to figure out how we can
12:01
mechanize a way to meet this Brett guy because he sounds like
12:04
he's the in the middle of all of this.
12:06
And then it happened naturally through Tech Stars, as you know.
12:10
And and then I think you became an advisor pretty early on how I
12:15
jumped in. And yeah, I want to say like
12:17
month one. I mean, I think we just felt a
12:20
lot of synergy together, both with where we were in our
12:24
journey and some similarities to your journey as well as just
12:28
kind of like the way we see the world and evolution of
12:31
technology. And then, yeah, as you know,
12:33
when we, you, when you go through tech stars and you stand
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on stage and, and Dane, our CEO gave, you know, the, the pitch
12:39
in front of our, you know, auditorium full investors.
12:41
You you introduced Dana, which was an incredible honor, and you
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gave one of the most amazing introductions.
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That was easy to do. I mean, it was easy to believe
12:50
in you guys. Yeah, it was really, really
12:52
powerful and and yeah, as far as bold metrics and like who we are
12:57
and what we do for, for people that don't know us, of course we
13:01
have an AI technology that its core predicts body measurements,
13:04
creates essentially an AI digital twin.
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We have the largest body library in the world.
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It's over 150 million AI digital twins.
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We're generating more AI body data than any company on the
13:19
planet today, which is really exciting and is giving us yeah,
13:23
huge Moat on the data side. But what I'm really the most
13:25
proud of is the impact that our technology makes.
13:28
And so that a high level how it works.
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If you look at customers of ours, like if you go to like
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Patagonia and you go to their website, we power fit in sizing
13:36
for them or Vori. A lot of companies where people
13:39
have used us and might not even know about it.
13:41
You're answering very simple questions, things like height,
13:43
weight, Jean waist, age, shoe size, and that goes into our
13:48
machine learning models. And from that, we're at a cork
13:51
predicting over 50 body measurements as if you step into
13:54
a body scanner. And then we map that to garment
13:57
data to make a prediction and show not just, oh, hey, Brett,
14:00
you're a small or medium or a large, but really simulating
14:03
what you do when you are shopping in a store.
14:06
Very few people go to a store and just say, oh, I'm just going
14:09
to, I know I'm a small, I'll buy a small.
14:10
It'll usually say, especially if it's a brand they haven't worn
14:13
before. Oh, hey, I've never tried Viori
14:15
before. You know, I'm usually a medium
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and sometimes I'm a large. I'm going to take both of those
14:20
sizes and I'm going to go in a dressing room and then I'm going
14:23
to pick the size that I like based on how I like things to
14:26
fit. And that fit preference is very
14:29
unique by person. And you really can't have AI
14:32
prescribe fit. Like for me, I like things like
14:36
slightly snug in my chest when I buy stuff.
14:38
So I look for that in clothing. I take clothes and dressing.
14:40
I look for that. I have a friend that him and I
14:42
like could be body double S We're very similar.
14:44
He likes things looser in the chest.
14:46
So if you're to have AI say, oh, Morgan, you're going to wear
14:50
this size on your friend, Of course he'll wear the same size.
14:53
You would get it wrong because you're missing that preference
14:55
price. And so we're able to do is show
14:57
toers when they're looking online, not only here's the size
15:01
we think you would wear, but here's how it fits on your body.
15:03
Here's where it's loose and tight.
15:04
And then they can do what they would do in a dressing room, go
15:06
down a size, go UA size. And then what's really powerful
15:09
is we're taking that data of, OK, what size do we recommend?
15:14
Did they go up or down a size? And if they did, did they keep
15:18
it or did they return it? And then we're using that to
15:21
continually update our machine learning models.
15:24
So those predictions tune over time based on real customer
15:27
behavior. And then we provide that data
15:29
also back to brands as insights so they can change the way they
15:33
make their clothes. And Rat's been a core vision of
15:35
ours since we started the company, which is that the
15:39
standard sizing small, medium, large came about in the Civil
15:42
War. And the way that clothes, I
15:44
didn't know that the way that clothes are made today is still
15:47
the exact same it was made in the, in the Civil War.
15:50
The, the, the data behind it is still they go, oh, hey, Brett's
15:53
the guy that typically wears our large.
15:56
So we're going to have our designers build a large and make
15:58
sure it fits on Brett. And then what they do is they
16:00
grade the patterns down and up to get the medium, the small,
16:04
the extra large and the extra, extra large.
16:06
And so the, you know, the further away you get from that
16:08
base pattern, the further the way you get from understanding
16:11
who it is, it's actually buying it.
16:13
And so we're also the first company to be able to provide
16:15
brands with data on how their actual shoppers are wearing the
16:18
clothes. And particularly in size of a
16:20
high returns, you know, we can tell brands, OK, yeah, you're
16:24
medium and large are great, but you're extra, extra large has
16:29
your highest return rate. And it turns out it's not the
16:32
whole garment doesn't fit right. It's actually the shoulder
16:35
width. And if you were to just just
16:36
that that it would fit 80% more of the shop that's actually
16:41
buying it. And so that for us is very
16:43
powerful because it's really foundationally changing the way
16:46
the clothes are made with data. Yeah.
16:48
And and just to talk about what the scale of this problem is, I
16:53
mean, if you're a apparel retailer, yes.
16:57
What type of returns do you typically see for people that
17:01
bought the wrong size? Yeah, yeah.
17:03
So apparel, especially online, you're looking at typically
17:06
north of 30%. And as the price goes up and the
17:10
garment becomes more structured than you're looking at 4050% or
17:14
higher. And the piece that doesn't get
17:17
talked about enough, and it's by design that that brands don't
17:22
talk about this, is that over 50% of apparel that is purchased
17:27
on online and returned goes directly to a landfill or an
17:30
incinerator. And so it's actually, from a
17:33
sustainability standpoint, unbelievably destructive.
17:38
And people don't think about it. So people think now, oh hey,
17:41
this is great. Online shopping is so easy.
17:43
I can buy 2 sizes and just use my home as a dressing room.
17:46
And if you're doing that and you're buying from a brand that
17:50
you know, isn't necessarily focused on ethically sourcing
17:54
and, and, and sustainability practices around returns, then
17:58
it may be easy for you. Because, you know, I'm going to
18:00
try on the medium, I'm going to try on the large.
18:01
Oh, OK, I'll, I'll just return the medium and consumers just
18:05
assume, oh, it'll go back out to somebody else.
18:08
But instead, in a lot of cases, it's just set on fire.
18:11
And then of course, the pollutants from that, there's
18:13
no. No filtering process.
18:15
And you know, one thing that people probably don't know,
18:18
because I certainly didn't know. I, I recently read this book by
18:22
Pablos Holman called Deep future.
18:24
Phenomenal book. I wrote a wrote a long review of
18:27
it. People can find on my medium or
18:29
sub stack or LinkedIn or my blog.
18:32
And it's a it's a really, really good book about thinking about
18:37
deep tech. The one of the things he talks
18:39
about in that book is peril. And I was shocked to find that
18:43
1/3 of apparel that's manufactured is never even worn
18:46
once. Yes.
18:47
Did you know that? Yes, I knew that I was.
18:48
Yeah, I was, I was like, wow. And it's, and it's really
18:51
because of this whole fast fashion movement, which is like
18:54
super, super carbon producing and.
18:58
If you think about the cycle of, you know, think about the return
19:01
that is incinerated, it's made, you know, suppose you're buying
19:05
in the US and suppose it's made overseas, right?
19:09
So it's made in a factory that's like probably polluting both the
19:13
air and the water, right? And then what happens?
19:16
It goes on to a boat that's then polluting the ocean and the air.
19:21
It lands in the US. It now goes on to a truck that's
19:25
polluting the the air to go to ADC.
19:28
Now you order it and it goes onto another truck, but it's
19:33
polluting the air to go to your house.
19:35
You try it on and you I don't really like it.
19:37
It goes back onto a truck that pollutes the air and then they
19:41
set it on. Fire.
19:42
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's really it.
19:45
It's, it's one of those inconvenient truths that not a
19:49
lot of people want to talk about because obviously we all like,
19:51
like our clothes and, you know, and in our physical avatar, you
19:56
know, we, we, we want to dress it up.
20:00
But it's, it's, it's a, it is a huge, huge problem at A at a
20:04
massive, massive scale and. And it's, you know, it's, it's,
20:09
it's something that people should at least get educated on
20:11
so they know what the, what the downsides.
20:14
Are, I mean, the number of people that do all the right
20:16
things when it comes to recycling and they, you know,
20:19
they divide their trash into, you know, four different
20:23
categories and they like really go the distance and they
20:25
compost. But then I've talked to friends
20:28
of mine. I'm from, I'm from Berkeley.
20:29
I have a lot of friends like that.
20:30
I've talked to friends like that.
20:31
And I always say when they're showing me the recycling
20:34
procedure, I say, oh, that's great.
20:35
Hey, what do you do with clothes when you buy a melon?
20:37
It's great. I do this and I return when I
20:39
explain this to them, I mean, they're horrified, but they have
20:42
no idea. And it's it's, you know, one of
20:45
these, you know, very, you know, deliberately kept secrets in
20:50
apparel that even within the brands, like I've talked to some
20:54
multibillion dollar brands where I know that they are going,
20:58
they're taking the returns, they're going directly to a
20:59
landfill and an incinerator. And I talked to people that work
21:03
at those brands and ask them, do you know what happens with your
21:07
returns? And they don't know.
21:10
Wow, wow. Yeah, I one of my favorite case
21:13
studies back in the Bizarre Voice days was LL Bean and LL
21:17
Bean's CMO was on stage and talking about that.
21:23
They would use customer reviews powered by Bizarre Voice to find
21:29
out like which apparel products were the lowest rated.
21:34
And they had a three, they had three different things that
21:39
would happen with that product. 1 is that if it was and this
21:44
happened the majority of the time, if it was low rated, let's
21:47
say it's a one or two star average, then all of those
21:51
reviews and everything would go back into the product
21:54
development cycle And they would, they would manufacture a
21:56
different version of it. So they'd keep the keep the
21:59
skew, but but but transform it and, and, and really use the
22:04
data for that. The second thing that would
22:07
happen is that if they're like, OK, we don't want to even
22:11
manufacture this anymore, but it's still decent, then they
22:18
would donate it. The third thing is, wow, this is
22:22
so bad. This is such a big misfire for
22:24
us. We do not want this at all to
22:27
ever have her label. They would incinerate it and it
22:31
was it was just a phenomenal case study about, you know, how
22:34
people were leveraging word of mouth to transform their
22:39
business. What's your favorite case study
22:41
for for bold metrics? I mean, for me, the thing that
22:44
that I get the most excited about is that the brands that
22:48
use us to change the way they make their clothes, yeah, based
22:52
on the way customers are wearing them, particularly in size
22:55
ranges that are less understood. So, you know, there's a lot of
22:58
areas where you make an impact where, you know, so few brands
23:01
understand the exact body shape and size that's wearing their
23:04
extra extra small when they're triple extra large.
23:07
And those tend to be relatively underserved markets and very
23:11
challenging markets for people to to find clothes that fit
23:14
them, to find clothes that fit them the way they like.
23:16
And there has never been a feedback loop for that data,
23:20
right? Like I said, the brands are
23:21
still just saying, we're going to make this for the person that
23:23
wears it's usually a medium or large, we're going to make it
23:26
for them. And they either put it on a
23:28
person or they put it on some type of a dress form or a body
23:31
block and they're grading that pattern.
23:33
The further you get away from that base pattern, you know, the
23:36
further you tend to get away from reality.
23:38
And so I mean, for me, from an impact standpoint, there's,
23:41
there's two pieces. One is foundationally changing
23:44
an industry is very powerful. And also to me, we were talking
23:49
about this last night at dinner, but I, I, I wake up everyday and
23:53
feel like we're living in the past.
23:54
And I strongly believe that. And so for me, it feels like I
23:58
still can't believe that we haven't progressed to a more
24:01
data-driven process for designing clothes because the,
24:06
the impact is, you know, very, very positive, obviously for
24:09
shoppers. So they're getting the size that
24:10
actually fits in the way they want.
24:13
But even more so, you know what we were just talking about this
24:15
totally unknown part for most people of the apparel industry
24:18
of the massive impact we're having on the planet.
24:21
And this ties into stuff I'm sure we'll talk about later on.
24:23
But is, you know, we're at a tipping point in history where
24:28
we have the ability to use technology and to use AI in
24:31
particular to be able to make the world a better place, make
24:35
them planted a better place. And this is something where you
24:39
have this wonderful dual impact of providing a better experience
24:43
for consumers and also taking something that's one of the most
24:47
high impact deleterious things we do for the planet and and
24:51
undoing that too. Yeah, Yeah.
24:53
So, so in Full disclosure, just for everybody that's hearing
24:57
this or watching this, I'm an advisor in the company.
25:00
I'm very proud of advisor in the company.
25:02
I really fell in love with you and Dana from the beginning.
25:06
And I love the company and I think it's it's, it's doing
25:10
great. So, so just FYI that I am
25:14
involved in it, but I'm actually not here to promote the company.
25:19
What I'm actually here for is to talk about AI powered
25:23
engineering. Before we go there, maybe we
25:26
could just go back in time, tell, tell me a bit about your
25:28
childhood and how you got to this point of founding bold
25:32
metrics, like what happened before I met you at all.
25:35
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean.
25:37
We've had some really good conversations about spirituality
25:39
already on this trip. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'd like to
25:43
think I, I kind of always been an engineer.
25:45
That's kind of been like the wiring for my brain.
25:47
So I can remember as a kid, I used to, I was really into like
25:52
circuits as a kid, as a young kid, like six or seven years
25:56
old. And I was actually, I had set
25:58
up, I remember like one of the first things I had engineered
26:01
prior to touching a computer was I had set up all these lights
26:04
around my room and had, I had these wires running around with
26:08
little bulbs and I'd set up the resistors and understood how to
26:11
set those up. And I was always tinkering with
26:13
things and I drove my parents crazy.
26:16
I can still remember this because they were not very happy
26:18
about it. I I'm pretty sure this was when
26:21
I was in junior high. I had saved up some money when I
26:24
went to ace harder and I bought there's these great light
26:27
switches that I like that were conductive light switches where
26:29
it was just a metal plate that you may have seen them.
26:32
They don't really use them much anymore, but when you the longer
26:35
you hold your finger on the metal plate, the more it will
26:39
either brighten or dim the light and then you tap it.
26:42
It switches between modes. Not super intuitive, but very
26:45
cool technology right, right. I, I bought like ten of these
26:50
light switches and when my parents were out one night, I
26:53
thought, I thought this would be a great surprise.
26:55
Great, you know I turned off the.
26:56
Electricity. I know how this is going.
26:57
And I replaced all of our light switches and they came home and
27:00
I said, surprise, I have put the most advanced light switches on
27:03
the market. I paid for with my own money in
27:06
our house. And my parents in about 5
27:08
minutes realized like this is an incredibly challenging type of
27:11
light switched opera. No.
27:13
And they said, I don't understand how this works.
27:15
No, you just you tap once you hold your finger, it's, it's
27:18
conductive. So it'll Brighton and dim
27:20
they're like, I don't know how we can operate the lights at our
27:22
house. So I take I had to take them all
27:25
out, right and. So at least it was an act of
27:28
love, you know? Yeah, Yeah.
27:30
Yeah, good idea. Those lights which has remained
27:32
in my bedroom though, until I went to college and my parents
27:36
said before you leave for college, can you please take
27:38
this out even you're sorry. Yeah, Yeah.
27:41
So that was that We. Want to reclaim your room?
27:44
And we want to know how to. Operate, yes, yeah.
27:47
And so, yeah, my journey, I guess, I don't think I've ever
27:50
shared this publicly, but may as well now because I'm old enough
27:54
that I can. So you're the first person to
27:56
ever document this because this has been like a part of my past
27:59
that maybe I've hidden, that I didn't need to hide and it's
28:02
just part of all of our journeys.
28:03
But so I was very interested originally in bulletin board
28:07
systems, which I know you were involved with.
28:09
I started my first one when I was 10 and I probably just going
28:12
back in time just for a moment. I got Pong when I was 4 and I
28:18
was trying to take it apart and figure out how it works.
28:21
And that's why my mom got me my first computer at age 7 and
28:24
learned how to program with me Is she was like, this is kind of
28:28
weird that my kid was doing this.
28:30
Interesting. Maybe he's meant to to to really
28:34
create a better future through technology.
28:36
And so I've actually known my purpose since I was 7.
28:39
Interesting, in part because my mom realized.
28:42
Fascinating. I didn't know that.
28:43
Yeah, but it's. But it's it's a cool synchrony
28:45
between our stories in terms of when we started, yeah.
28:48
Yeah, so I, I was very into bulletin board systems and I
28:51
grew up in Berkeley, CA and you could actually get there was a
28:55
camera, what it was called. It was one of those like smaller
28:58
large format news print magazines called like Compu
29:02
Weekly or something, mostly ads and couple articles.
29:05
And in the very back they had a list of BBS phone numbers and
29:09
every week I would get that and I would just try every BBS.
29:12
And I did the same thing too, even though I had a BBS.
29:15
I would like constantly finding others you know and.
29:18
I thought that was so cool. I love that concept, being able
29:21
to connect with other people. And so then I.
29:24
And we should describe real quickly.
29:26
Let's describe what ABBS is so. Yeah, I guess.
29:28
Do you want to do? We're old enough now that people
29:30
might not know. Yeah.
29:31
No, you should describe it because you have some background
29:33
in it. Yeah.
29:34
So the first modem I have actually had was 110 baud and
29:38
when you beat me there go across the screen, I can almost type
29:41
faster. But a bulletin board system was
29:46
a communication software package that allowed two computers to
29:53
talk to each other over modem and you would have message
29:56
boards. So let's say that I connected to
29:59
another bullet board system. The text would appear on the
30:03
screen and I could, you know, start typing messages and the
30:07
message boards. I could chat sometimes with the
30:10
with the system operator, which is the person running the BBS.
30:14
I could download software and usually there were upload and
30:17
download ratios so that you didn't have what were called
30:20
leeches and the BBS nomenclature or just come in and just
30:24
download all your software and then peace out.
30:27
And the one frustrating thing about BBS is, is that it would
30:31
tie up that phone line. And so I had to have a separate
30:35
phone line for my BBS. Yes, exactly.
30:38
And sometimes my dad would come along and pick up the phone and
30:42
I'm like totally a mess. Everybody actually, right.
30:44
And so you know, eventually had multiple phone lines, but but I
30:50
it was super cool because you're getting a window into the future
30:53
of the Internet and electronic communications at a very early
30:56
age. And so when the Internet came
30:59
along for me, and I'm sure it's the same for you, it was like
31:01
very familiar. Yes, just the scale and the cost
31:06
was different. The cost was like pretty much
31:08
free because universities were providing the connection, but
31:13
the the and the scale was global.
31:15
So it was like the beautiful global village that that the
31:18
Internet was finally manifesting.
31:20
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean, I like you had that
31:23
early inspiration with BB s s and he had a very young age
31:27
identified. Oh, computers are a way to be
31:30
connected as people. And also, you know, going back
31:34
to me just being very interested in tinkering with things.
31:37
Oh, computers are also ways to be able to tinker and find out
31:44
very interesting, unique details about systems and how they
31:47
operate. And so when I was on BB s s and
31:52
I just connecting more BSS, I started to read a little bit
31:54
about computer hacking and got very interested in that and
31:57
interested in like understanding systems and understanding
31:59
loopholes and systems. And I was on America Online and
32:04
we had, you know, that time America Online.
32:05
You like have these shared accounts or you have different
32:08
logins. So like my dad had one and I had
32:09
one and me and some friends have been reading some more things
32:13
about computer hacking. We should do it at the same
32:15
time, though, all right? Do you know what I'm about to
32:17
say? No, I don't know what you're
32:19
about to. Say you've got mail.
32:20
We've got it to do it. You've got mail.
32:23
That's exactly what it sounds like.
32:24
So that is. Exactly what it sounds like.
32:26
There's actually a movie made. You've got mail?
32:29
Yes, I saw those. Who's in that?
32:30
I can't remember. But it's from like early 90s, I
32:32
want to say. Yeah, exactly.
32:33
Yeah. There's America Online just
32:36
pieced out. Did you see that?
32:37
It was just this year? Yeah.
32:39
Yeah. Which?
32:40
Means actually I'm very safe and telling the story hold on for a
32:43
while because of this. So I when I was trying to think
32:48
of how old I was now, maybe 12 was either 12 or 13, I found a
32:53
loophole in America Online and exploited the loophole and
32:57
essentially it allowed me to create cloud storage on America
33:02
Online. Oh my gosh, Massive cloud
33:03
storage. Yeah.
33:04
Cloud storage that ended up being like, I would say like 100
33:07
times the hard disk space that I have.
33:11
Wow. And I was very happy at this.
33:14
And I was using it and America Online.
33:16
Someone on the security team figured it out.
33:19
Sure. And is there a running out of
33:21
storage? Yeah.
33:22
And. Who's this guy?
33:23
Morgan ended up taking off the storage, ended up contacting my
33:28
dad, contacting law enforcement, shutting down our account, very
33:32
much banning me from America Online.
33:36
You didn't have mail anymore. Not not the regular whole.
33:41
And so my parents said, hey, you're not going to be allowed
33:46
to use online services for I can't remember how long.
33:49
It was probably about a year. And I was devastated First off,
33:53
because I also, I really thought it, you know, it wasn't doing
33:57
much harm. It was an interesting exploit.
33:59
I found. I felt kind of proud of it.
34:01
I got a lot of trouble for it, which was a bummer.
34:03
And I felt very ashamed of that. And then I also felt like I
34:08
would really miss out by not being able to be connected
34:11
online for a year. So I thought, what am I going to
34:13
do? I have a year now.
34:15
I'm really interested in computers, but I'm not going to
34:18
be able to be online. And so I actually decided that I
34:22
wanted to learn Adobe Photoshop, an web design, and I would have
34:27
to learn it and myself all locally.
34:30
So at that point in time it was it was pretty much all HTML and
34:36
I think very, very early JavaScript.
34:40
I was programming that stuff at the beginning.
34:42
Yeah, so, but I was, I was doing it only in a vacuum and only
34:45
able to run it locally. I think then it was like it was
34:48
NCSA Mosaic and Netscape 1.1 and I think and so, and it was very
34:55
interesting because what ended up happening was without being
34:58
able to go online and just learning everything in a vacuum
35:02
and being so focused, I was spending, I don't know, you
35:05
know, three to five hours a day doing Photoshop tutorials, doing
35:10
HTML tutorials all through books.
35:12
Because that was, so I had, I just kept buying Photoshop books
35:17
and I kept buying HTML and JavaScript books.
35:22
And I learned a lot about both. And I was starting to do like
35:27
some photorealistic art in Photoshop.
35:30
And I was also using that to make websites.
35:33
And we had a, a family friend over for dinner and he saw what
35:38
I was working on. Like after dinner, I, you know,
35:40
hey, can I be excused? And I would go and go to my room
35:42
and he saw what I was doing. He walked in my room.
35:45
He said, like, what are you doing that in?
35:47
And I said, I'm doing this in Photoshop and I'm putting a
35:49
line, but I can't really put it online.
35:51
But I've been in a web page around this.
35:53
This is pretty unique, what Morgan's doing.
35:55
And he said, you know, I have a friend, a guy named Bob Batty,
35:58
who is the CEO of a company called Chaos Tools.
36:02
And that was a company in San Francisco that had created
36:06
software. It was like production level
36:10
video software for like if you saw the movie Jumanji, like the
36:13
text Jumanji that comes in was done with their software called
36:16
entitled. David Letterman show text coming
36:19
in was done with entitled. They were like the best of the
36:21
best for that. Like lots of visual effects
36:24
around text and things like that.
36:26
And he said, you know, what would you guys think about
36:30
Morgan, like interning for chaos tools?
36:33
And my parents were like, I don't know, he's like only 13.
36:36
Like, can you do that? It's in San Francisco.
36:37
And he said, I think he's really talented, Like you guys should
36:41
get him out of the bedroom. You shouldn't just be doing this
36:43
in the bedroom, right? You shouldn't just like, yeah,
36:45
he should be. He should be doing something
36:46
that that can make a bigger impact.
36:48
And so he set up a meeting with the CEO of this company.
36:52
I'm only 13, so my my parents come with me.
36:55
You know, we take Bart to San Francisco and we go to this tech
36:59
office in San Francisco. It was at 55 Hawthorne St. which
37:03
that building is still there. And I I walked by that building
37:05
a few times a year. OK, Yeah.
37:08
And so we went up and I was showing him some of the stuff I
37:13
was doing and my parents are there.
37:15
And he said, hey, I'd love to hire Morgan in whatever capacity
37:19
we can, We can have him. He seems like he's got some
37:22
talent here and we could really use that creativity and parents
37:26
like, well, how does that work if he's 13?
37:28
And we worked out a way and I, I instantly became the highest
37:34
paid person I knew and in that age group, because I was working
37:38
for the software company now. And they paired me up with a guy
37:42
named Bill Nifenegger, who was the creative director, who was
37:46
like a kind of semi famous Photoshop guy.
37:49
And he was the creative director reported directly to the CEO And
37:53
Bill and I got along like instantly, like very
37:56
charismatic, very classic Bay Area, weird but visionary guy.
38:02
And when I started working with him, he said, Hey, I'm just
38:04
going to let you know, like I'm not, we're going to treat you
38:06
like a kid, like you clearly know what you're doing.
38:09
And we're a software company. We're we're growing fast, we're
38:12
building interesting stuff. Your voice matters.
38:16
You just tell me as you see things, what you think we should
38:19
be doing. If you think this makes sense,
38:21
If it doesn't, you're going to do some graphics, but you're
38:23
also going to talk about product design.
38:25
And I was like in it. And it evolved to as I was with
38:31
the company, they went to go present at 2 conferences,
38:34
Seybold and Seagraph at the Moscone Center in San Francisco.
38:37
And Bill had said to the CEO, he said, you know, Morgan would be
38:41
great at presenting, right. And I thought, I thought, I
38:47
don't know about that. I don't know if I want to
38:49
present at how I put in here. I'll put in the and I said, but
38:55
I can, I can try it. And they said, don't worry,
38:57
we've got our, our, you know, our sales team, our normal
38:59
people to do these presentations.
39:01
But like, let's give you a try. And so, you know, we had a very
39:05
nice base of 13 still. At 13, yeah, yeah.
39:08
And it was. Actually at Macworld, Siebold
39:10
and Seagraph for the three shows, and I think the first one
39:13
actually was Macworld. And so we had this really nice
39:16
booth, pretty much the front of Moscone Center.
39:18
And we were developing a product called Flashbox that was going
39:22
to be a competitor to Photoshop. OK, but I wasn't supposed to say
39:26
that. And we were developing our own
39:27
programming language to compete with Java.
39:30
And Flashbox was written in that programming language,
39:32
essentially cross-platform programming language where you
39:35
could write it once and then you can compile it to run on a Mac
39:38
or on APC. And so they had the regular
39:42
presenter from the company do his presentation stuff.
39:44
And I was watching him and then they said, OK, do you want to go
39:48
up and do it? You helped create the product.
39:50
You can do this. And the PR people talking about
39:52
what I could and couldn't say. And the marketing was to make
39:54
sure to say this like this. And it was like very stressful
39:57
as a kid to try to remember all the ways I was supposed to say
40:00
things and to be careful not to get sued.
40:02
And so I I get. And I start talking and
40:06
instantly people that are walking by see, well, there's
40:09
like a 13 year old, right? What's going here?
40:11
The booth gets, like, really full of people.
40:14
All right? And I realized like, oh, I love
40:17
this. Like, I felt very natural
40:18
talking about something. Yeah, I felt very natural about
40:21
it. And there I finish the talk, the
40:25
like people are clapping. There's all these is like an
40:28
incredible friend. And I go, there's like an inside
40:32
area in the booth and I go in with a bunch of the executives
40:36
and they're like, you just said something you're not supposed to
40:39
say. You said, remember, you're not
40:41
supposed to say that it's better than Photoshop or competing with
40:45
Photoshop. We're going to get sued now.
40:47
What did you do? I remember I was crying right,
40:50
right in the back of the booth right right here and they said
40:55
no, no, stop crying, stop crying, stop crying.
40:57
You know, don't do that again. Just stop crying, stop crying.
40:59
And they said, you know, it was a a huge hit.
41:02
You have to get that back out there in like 5 minutes.
41:05
I said, oh, I don't know if I wanted to this, this was kind of
41:09
traumatic. I said no, just remember and I
41:10
can remember. You realize I just got banned
41:12
from. And I remember it was like
41:15
counting down. Where it's like 3 minutes, 2
41:16
minutes and the whole time because they realized what a
41:19
risk this was, but how much publicity it was bringing.
41:23
I've got now like 3 different executives telling me, OK, when
41:26
you talk about this, you have to explain it like this.
41:28
When you say this, remember, don't say this.
41:30
And so like this. And I realized like, oh, kind of
41:33
the weight of the world on my shoulders.
41:35
But but I did it. And then I continued presenting
41:37
for them at the shows and and the San Francisco, it was either
41:43
the chronicle of the Examiner that next day, my mom like
41:47
flipped out and she said, Oh my goodness, you're on the front
41:49
pace of the business section. And there was actually, I still
41:53
have this a photo of me right next to a photo of Steve Jobs
41:58
and said like the quote was like, like Steve Jobs whiz kid
42:03
Morgan Linton presented the future of blah, blah, blah at
42:05
Macworld. Wow, totally surreal.
42:08
And and you know that's a. There's a great spiritual lesson
42:12
in that too, which is suffering is a teacher, and usually
42:16
something beautiful follows suffering.
42:19
So even though you had that that experience of suffering for a
42:22
while, it created this trigger for you to learn something new
42:29
that then you became a expert on at a very young age.
42:32
Yeah, yeah. And it taught me like through.
42:34
That experience, I mean, I think First off, there's probably a
42:36
little too much pressure to put on a kid at that time in some
42:39
ways. But it also taught me,
42:41
especially that first moment where I got in a lot of trouble.
42:44
I'm behind the booth and I have to go back out there.
42:47
And I thought to myself, there's no way I can go back out there.
42:51
I've just been crying. I feel totally defeated.
42:54
And then, I don't know, there was something inside of Maine
42:55
that said, no, you can do this. Like cast that aside, have the
43:01
confidence. And I went back out there and I
43:04
did a, a better job that I did before and it didn't really
43:09
stress me out and I felt very confident.
43:11
And that taught me, I think at a young age, kind of the
43:13
confidence of like, huh, I, I, I maybe have more power to control
43:18
my thoughts, my emotions, things like this than than I, than I
43:21
thought I could. That's amazing.
43:23
I mean, I mean just. So you know my background.
43:27
I was terrified of giving public speeches.
43:30
I think I, I think I first spoke at age 21 or Oh, really?
43:35
I didn't know that guy. I never guessed that.
43:37
Oh. And it was really, really hard.
43:39
I. Mean you know, Deborah and I've
43:40
been married, you know, for now 29 years and when we watched
43:44
that show Silicon Valley, she was like you are like Richard
43:47
Hendricks. You were the one throwing up in
43:48
the trash can. You know he was the CEO of that
43:51
of that funny show. Great, great show by Mike Judge.
43:56
So like it. It's so cool that you conquered
44:01
a fear that is for some people more terrifying than the fear of
44:06
death, the fear of speaking in public.
44:10
And you conquer that at age 13. I don't know if I've heard of
44:14
anybody else conquering that outside of our our oldest
44:17
daughter. I will say that Rachel gave a
44:20
Ted X talk when she was 9 and just absolutely rocked it.
44:26
And she actually had to make it even even more amazing.
44:29
She had sprained her ankle two weeks before and so she actually
44:34
hobbled up on stage on crutches. And you know the only way you
44:38
can see that, and I could share this video.
44:40
In the show notes, she talked all about inner beauty and
44:44
transformation. Is that you can see the little
44:47
boot in the side if you really look for it.
44:50
Do you have these any video of you speaking or?
44:53
I don't have any video. I have the my mom.
44:55
Made a million photocopies of the of the San Francisco Chronic
44:58
article, and if it's anywhere online, I'd love to share it in
45:01
the show, which it was if I can find it.
45:04
Yeah, but it was interesting because put, you should put one.
45:06
Of these articles online though, like share that that I should
45:09
actually yeah that I would because.
45:10
That's such a cool part of your story.
45:12
Yeah, because you. Are like one of the Super powers
45:15
you have is that you're deeply technical, but you're also very
45:19
good at selling and the best sales people are people that
45:26
have genuine depth and technology.
45:28
At least this is for tech companies and they are super
45:33
passionate about what they do and that like comes off so
45:36
naturally for you because you're doing something that you are
45:40
passionate about. That was apparent from the
45:43
moment I met you and. Dana, yeah.
45:44
And Dana is the same way. Yeah, Yeah, we both are.
45:47
I mean, we're really engineers and technologists above all
45:51
else. I mean, we just believe so much
45:54
in the potential for technology and particularly like this time
45:58
in human history with AI to to change the world.
46:02
And I think we feel as you do. And then as is is, you know, a
46:05
lot related to the theme of this.
46:07
The great responsibility that comes with that for those of us
46:11
that are they're building, creating these technologies.
46:13
It's very, it's very prevalent. I mean, you know.
46:15
Jensen is someone to see of NVIDIA who is deeply technical
46:20
and very good at selling. And I just had over at our home
46:26
last week this amazing woman. I'd never met her before, but we
46:29
got introduced by a friend. Her name's Archana and she's the
46:35
global head of sales for all of AMD.
46:38
So like geopolitically it's very interesting for her seeing
46:41
what's happening. But her her background has
46:44
actually been tech and, and including like deep engineering.
46:50
And so she's able to go up and down the stack in those
46:53
meetings. And I was just, I was so
46:55
impressed with her. I mean, you know, deep humility
46:58
combined deep wisdom and and, and, and real depth.
47:02
Yeah. Yeah.
47:03
So, so it's it's, it's pretty, it's pretty common when you get
47:06
to some of this high level, highest levels of these
47:09
companies that people have real technical depth.
47:12
Yeah, I'm sure. But it's it's yeah.
47:14
What a cool. I did not know that about you at
47:16
all. Yeah.
47:17
Yeah. So then after, after that,
47:19
another pieces, I, I then I was doing web design.
47:23
I was allowed back on the Internet.
47:25
I was doing some web design stuff and ended up getting
47:28
contacted by a friend of a friend who said, hey, I think
47:33
there's an opportunity to start a web design company in
47:36
Berkeley. And there weren't really any web
47:39
design companies in Berkeley at that time.
47:40
I want to say it was like 1993 or 1994.
47:44
And he said, I think that real estate companies and real estate
47:48
agents should have websites. And he said, you know how to do
47:52
web design. I have nice suits.
47:56
I drive a BMW. I'm a good salesperson.
47:58
I don't know anything about designing websites, but I really
48:01
want to learn what if we start a business together?
48:06
Once again, this is like a similar thing where he's
48:07
pitching my parents and my parents are going, what's going
48:09
on to you? My life's going on here.
48:11
And my parents are saying, you know, you have to decide what
48:13
your parents are thinking like. OK, my son's really amazing this
48:17
We should just kind of they were, they were mostly positive
48:20
about, but they were. Also concerned of like am I
48:23
losing some aspects of my childhood?
48:24
I think because for this for the web.
48:27
Design company, he said. We have a great opportunity
48:29
here, but you know, I think the only time we could do this is to
48:33
work on Saturday, Sunday. So like, how would you feel,
48:36
Morgan, if you're not like hanging out with your friends on
48:38
Saturday, Sunday, but instead like we're running this business
48:41
and you know, we can try to balance it in some ways, but
48:43
like it probably would be if this does take off, be kind of
48:45
time consuming there. I decided let's go for it.
48:49
And so we actually did the very first website for Coldwell
48:54
Banker Premier States and he actually like convinced Coldwell
48:57
Banker they need a website, something for Grubbin Ellis.
49:00
I remember we were charging $1000 an hour and we were, and
49:05
we were splitting it 5050. So I was at that time, I want to
49:08
say 14, and I was making $500.00 an hour designing websites.
49:13
So I was making like way more money than I would have expected
49:17
to make at that age. And actually, you wouldn't make
49:19
that in a. Month of allowance I don't think
49:23
no. You know I had a very low
49:24
allowance 1. Hour, you know, and it was
49:29
interesting because the, the thing that we saw was the
49:33
ability. It was the first time I
49:34
introduced a technology actually, because as we were
49:37
doing these websites and we started to do websites for
49:40
individual brokers and do websites for individual
49:42
properties. And there were a lot of there's
49:45
a lot of interest at that time in the Bay Area for homes that
49:47
were, you know, say 3 to $5,000,000 homes having a
49:51
website really elevating that. And I came up with this idea
49:55
that I called GIF TV and I said, you know, the problem we have
50:00
with these existing real estate websites is we're not really
50:02
leveraging the technology because all you're doing is
50:05
scrolling down a page and looking at photos of the house.
50:09
It's just like a pamphlet, I said, but animated GIFs exist.
50:13
What if I can take these images and compress them down to look
50:16
as as good as they can and have it actually do a home tour?
50:22
And so we actually, we actually introduced that technology and I
50:27
think that moment in a lot of ways was very powerful for me
50:31
because we did that. I remember real estate agents
50:34
going, wow, so someone can just go to the website and it will
50:37
walk them through a tour. What a cool concept.
50:40
And I remember that being deployed and going live and see
50:44
it on sites with different homes.
50:45
And then some of those home selling and the real estate and
50:47
saying, gosh, I don't know exactly what role this play, but
50:50
this was really cool. And that in a lot of ways
50:52
sparked my interest for not just like building software or
50:57
writing code or building products, but like the the
51:02
inventor side of me came out there where I realized, oh, that
51:08
feeling was a better feeling than anything else where I came
51:11
up with something new and different and that that changed
51:14
my life. Honestly.
51:15
Wow, that is so. That is so, so cool.
51:20
What a what a incredible gift that you got to do that as a
51:23
kid. And how long did you do that?
51:25
We ran that company. For, I want to say maybe like a
51:28
year and a half or so and then it was interesting by the way
51:32
that could have, as you know that could have been a
51:34
wholesale. Company that went global had
51:37
these animated gifts. For.
51:39
For selling real estate all over the world, Yeah.
51:41
I ended up at this crossroads because then I got introduced.
51:43
To somebody else at a company in Berkeley called Zynet.
51:48
And then they offered me a job and I thought OK, I'm running
51:51
the the web design thing doing this with real estate.
51:54
But Zion, it was doing really interesting stuff and they were
51:57
using Silicon Graphics computers and doing a lot of testing is
52:01
actually like throughput testing with the Silicon Graphics
52:03
computers. And I was too fascinated by the
52:08
idea of getting to work with these amazing SGI machines.
52:12
And so I went to work for them. And that's that's essentially
52:15
the company that I work for until I went off to to college.
52:19
Yeah. And then you you went off to.
52:21
CMU, we're talking about that last night.
52:23
So Carnegie Allen University. Tell us about that.
52:28
Like, how did you decide CMU? And yeah, yeah, it was a weird
52:31
way to decide so as we were. Talking about dinner last night,
52:34
I, I actually just went, I'm, I'm a very data-driven person,
52:38
not shockingly. And I, I went to U.S. news and
52:40
World Reports and I just looked at what schools have the top
52:44
computer science programs. And I just wanted to apply to
52:47
all of the top, like the top five.
52:49
And Carnegie Mellon was number 1.
52:52
And I had never heard of it back at that.
52:54
And this was 1999. It wasn't actually as well known
52:57
of university as it is today. And I remember saying to my dad,
53:00
well #1 is Carnegie Mellon, what is that?
53:03
I mean, it's a, Oh no, that's a, that's a very good school.
53:06
It's actually really hard to get into.
53:08
And I said, well, I'm going to apply their early decision
53:11
because that's number one, that's where I want to go.
53:13
And then I applied to Stanford and MIT and a bunch of other
53:16
schools. And I, I got in early decision.
53:20
And what's funny is I had set up to meet with someone from
53:24
Carnegie Mellon because they have a program where you can
53:27
meet with grads that are in your area to like hear what their
53:30
experience was like. Instead of some of those
53:32
actually doing their PhD at UC Berkeley, they've done their
53:34
undergrad at Carnegie Mellon. And I got in early decision the
53:38
day before I went to meet him for coffee.
53:41
And so when you met for coffee, I said, well, I got an early
53:44
decision. I guess I'm going.
53:45
I hope this conversation goes well.
53:47
I guess I've made this decision. And he was kind of surprised,
53:50
like, oh, you've. Never been to Pittsburgh.
53:51
And I said no, I've never been. I don't know what it's going to
53:54
be like. So yeah, I got in and moved to
53:59
Pittsburgh and my first year was a really intimidating year.
54:06
It was a very, like, very powerful experience because I
54:11
went into the experience thinking that I had so much
54:14
confidence then with everything that happened to me in high
54:18
school. And it was without a doubt the
54:22
most humbling experience of my life.
54:24
I remember the first class I went to, Kearney Mellon, the
54:28
professor gets up, he goes, oh, you know, welcome to Carnegie
54:31
Mellon. This is going to be a great
54:32
journey for all of you. Just one thing I have to tell
54:35
all of you, I am going to give you homework as if you have no
54:39
other classes. And so it's up to you to figure
54:42
out how to balance your time. And I thought my class is going
54:45
to be kind of intense. And then the next class, the
54:48
teacher said, hey, I don't care what other classes you have, I'm
54:52
going to give you homework as this this is your only class.
54:55
And that continued. And I thought what I get myself
54:58
into, and then a lot of my peers were people that were like
55:01
valedictorians of their high schools.
55:03
And I, I really felt like we're much smarter than me.
55:08
And I felt very intimidated. And I thought, I think I'm in
55:12
over my head, like I don't know if I can, I can, if I can do
55:15
this. And it was hard.
55:18
It was much harder than I was expecting.
55:20
The classes were very, very hard, harder than anything I've
55:23
ever done before, particularly on the, on the math side and
55:27
the, and the physics side were very, very challenging.
55:31
And there was a point freshman year where I just was wondering,
55:37
is this the right path for me? Have I myself in a situation
55:40
that like, I, I shouldn't be in, like I'm not smart beer.
55:44
I think that these people make sense to be here, but I don't
55:46
make sense to be here. But I realized they were
55:49
thinking the same thing. Well, some of them were.
55:51
Some of them weren't. Some of them were.
55:53
Like I, I had to study more than a, than a number of my peers.
55:58
I studied really, really hard and I kicked butt that freshman
56:02
year. But I also realized like, OK, I
56:05
do have to study a little harder than some of the other people
56:08
that I'm with. And that was very humbling.
56:10
But also it was once again like a chance to prove to myself that
56:14
I could do it. And at the end of the year, I
56:16
kind of proved to myself, OK, I'm definitely not the smartest
56:20
person here. And that's good to know.
56:23
And but I also know the the superpower that I have when I
56:29
apply myself, which is what it what it and entrepreneurship is
56:32
always. Grit and plus and the grit part
56:35
is a huge, huge part. And so you, you got that, you
56:38
got that very early on. OK, great.
56:41
So at Carnegie Mellon, you're in this you're in this, you know,
56:46
super high pressure environment and you know clearly that that
56:52
that forged you to be the entrepreneur you are today.
56:56
In terms of you and Dana then deciding to start bold metrics
57:04
like how did that, how did that happen?
57:06
Like what, what year was that in your marriage that you guys
57:09
decided, hey, we're going to be entrepreneurs or two?
57:11
Yeah, well, right away we got. Married to start of the company
57:14
OK so literally right away yeah yeah but we.
57:17
Knew we were going to do that and.
57:19
Yeah, you know I was. And when did you guys get
57:21
married 2. 1012 OK 2000. 12 yeah.
57:24
August 2012. Yeah.
57:26
And so I after Carnegie Mellon, I was at like a bit of a
57:32
crossroads. This is another part of my
57:34
journey you might not even know. And a lot of people don't know.
57:36
And I actually felt like I was such a social person and I liked
57:41
storytelling and I liked the idea of like big visions.
57:44
And I was getting job offers from companies that were going
57:47
to put me in a a big company where I would be a software
57:50
engineer for that big company and it'd be a high paying job.
57:54
But it like just didn't feel right.
57:56
Yeah, I can remember telling my dad we were in Sea Ranch, a
58:00
beautiful place in the California coast.
58:02
And I remember telling my dad, hey, I'm going to turn down all
58:08
the job offers that I got. And he was like, but you just
58:14
went, I did my undergrad. I also did my grad.
58:15
I did, I also did grad at the school.
58:17
Your parents are used to being surprised.
58:18
I guess so. Yeah, I also did grad school.
58:20
At Carnegie Mellon. And I said to him, I need
58:24
something to, to do that's different so that I'm not stuck
58:31
as a computer programmer because I just know I have a bigger
58:34
purpose than that. And I, I need the, the time to
58:37
find that. And I asked him like a totally
58:41
out of the blue thing, which is he went to high school with a
58:44
guy named Walter Parks, who is one of the main producers of
58:48
DreamWorks. He did American Beauty and
58:51
Gladiator. And I said, is there any chance
58:55
you can ping Walter and see if he can find something for me at
58:59
DreamWorks? Can just be for the summer.
59:01
But I want to do something totally different so I can kind
59:04
of free my mind and think about a different path for myself.
59:07
I haven't talked to Walter in a long time.
59:09
Let me see. But like, they were very close
59:11
friends. So Walter said yes, and I
59:15
actually went from having a lot of job offers at big software
59:20
companies to moving to LA and working as an unpaid intern at
59:25
DreamWorks on the Universal Lot Story department.
59:29
And I did that. And it was this weird thing.
59:32
I just had this feeling that I needed to take a different path
59:36
to find the actual path I was supposed to be on.
59:39
And the DreamWorks thing was totally fascinating, very
59:42
different from anything I've ever done.
59:43
I read screenplays for three to four hours a day.
59:46
I delivered screenplays to creative execs around the
59:49
office. And then through that, I was
59:53
living with my cousins in LA at the time and they had rented a
59:56
house in Santa Barbara. And they said, hey, Morgan, you
59:59
know, the guy that that owns this house is like your age.
1:00:02
He worked for the software company.
1:00:03
They did really well. You got to come and meet him.
1:00:05
And I met him, this guy named Graham Ferrar, who was with a
1:00:08
company called software.com, which was a a very successful
1:00:12
company in the late 90s. And the founders of that company
1:00:15
went to start a company that at the time is called Rincon
1:00:18
Networks, and then change the name to Sonos.
1:00:21
And Graham said, hey, I know you're doing this stuff at
1:00:24
DreamWorks now. Gosh, I think you could be a
1:00:26
really interesting fit at Sonos. Would you consider working for
1:00:29
Sonos? And I thought maybe this is that
1:00:33
path I'm supposed to be on. I said to him, hey, I'm, I'm
1:00:36
interested, but I'm not going to be a programmer for you.
1:00:39
I need to do something else. Is it actually we have a, a
1:00:41
sales engineer position? It's kind of a combination where
1:00:44
you're able to help sell our product, but speak to it a very
1:00:48
technical level. And so I went in to interview
1:00:52
with Sonos and Tom might, may or may not be OK with me telling
1:00:56
this story, but it'll be fine because Tom Cohen, one of the
1:00:58
founders of Sonos, wonderful guy, major mentor to me,
1:01:01
incredibly private person. So he doesn't like stories being
1:01:04
shared, but I'll share this one anyways.
1:01:05
And he probably won't watch that.
1:01:07
And if he does, If he does? He'll all appreciate it.
1:01:10
He'll appreciate it. So I interviewed with with
1:01:12
multiple people at Sonos and interviews went great.
1:01:15
And then they said, you know, now we need you to talk to one
1:01:18
of the founders. And so I get into a room kind of
1:01:21
like this with Tom. And I'm thinking this is going
1:01:24
to go great. Everyone here I really connect
1:01:26
with. It feels like a really good role
1:01:28
for me. And Tom walks in.
1:01:30
He doesn't even sit down. He shakes me in.
1:01:32
He goes, hey, I don't know how much time I'm going to spend
1:01:34
with you because like, I don't know what we're doing here.
1:01:37
I just like, I'm sorry, was there some confusion?
1:01:39
He goes, yeah, this is for a, a sales engineer job and you're a
1:01:43
computer programmer. So I don't know why we would
1:01:46
think you'd be a good fit for this job.
1:01:48
I don't think you took any business classes.
1:01:50
You don't have any experience with this.
1:01:52
Also, like you're in LA and, you know, the jobs in Boston.
1:01:55
So, you know, I'm, I'm pretty busy.
1:01:59
I I just don't think this makes sense.
1:02:01
And that's a that's a tough way to start.
1:02:03
Yeah. And.
1:02:04
I and I just said to him. I I, I just kind of let him have
1:02:07
it and I said, you don't even know me, right?
1:02:09
I said, who are you to say that when you don't even know who I
1:02:12
am? Why don't you sit down?
1:02:14
Why don't we talk and let's see, because I think I could do a
1:02:17
great job and this is really the type of opportunity I've been
1:02:21
looking for. Wow and good.
1:02:22
Good on you for being that bold. We sat down and we talked and I
1:02:27
don't think it went well. Like I was saying things and
1:02:31
trying to explain myself and looking at his facial expression
1:02:34
and body language, like it wasn't landing.
1:02:36
And he was kind of like, yeah, I hear you're saying that.
1:02:39
OK. And then he he left.
1:02:41
He's like, like, OK, good, good to meet you.
1:02:44
And I just like walked out and I was like, well, I'm, I'm
1:02:48
definitely not good. You're not getting that.
1:02:50
And Chris Fowler, who is the person who who had brought me in
1:02:52
to interview British guy, really tall British guy.
1:02:56
He opens the door to the room and he goes, wow.
1:02:59
I said, yeah, I I don't know what happened.
1:03:02
And he said, Tom really liked you.
1:03:04
That's so funny. I said, Oh my God.
1:03:07
And yeah, that that started the journey at Sonos and really at
1:03:10
Sonos. This is where you, if you look
1:03:12
at like kind of our early thesis around bold metrics, what Sonos,
1:03:17
what the founders had said early on is we are not building a
1:03:20
company to sell speakers, to make money, to become a billion
1:03:23
dollar company. They did all that actually, but
1:03:25
they said we're doing this because for us, we want to
1:03:30
foundationally change the way people listen to music.
1:03:33
And the KP is we're going to look at are not going to be how
1:03:35
much revenue we do, but how much more music people listen to when
1:03:40
they have Sonos in their home. And that was like our guiding
1:03:44
light at Sonos. And I was very inspired by that.
1:03:47
But being there and being a part of the organization, I ended up
1:03:50
running Sonos International, starting Sonos in Asia,
1:03:52
Australia, Latin America, Canada, traveling over the
1:03:54
world, totally fascinating stuff.
1:03:56
But I was doing one part of that business and I was very inspired
1:04:01
of being able to use technology to foundationally change the way
1:04:04
people do things. And Dana was doing her PhD at
1:04:07
UCLA at the time. And we were talking about this
1:04:12
and and we both really had the same vision, felt like we kind
1:04:14
of had a similar purpose in life of, you know, being able to use
1:04:19
technology not to create a billion dollar business and, you
1:04:24
know, be a successful software founders.
1:04:27
It was really about like, how do we change technology, use
1:04:31
technology to change the way that people do things and make
1:04:34
an impact in the world. And and that was really the a
1:04:38
lot of our our inspiration came from a lot of the early kind of
1:04:41
founder vision that we got from. So yeah, that's that's a really
1:04:45
that's a really cool. Story so with with what I'm
1:04:49
working on now part of the reason that I wanted to have you
1:04:54
on is your AI powered newsletter AR powered engineering
1:04:59
newsletter and you've become you know, not surprisingly, given
1:05:06
the background you just outlined, you know an early
1:05:09
pioneer of like the best AI powered engineering techniques.
1:05:15
So, you know, I'm, I'm operating under this thesis, as you know,
1:05:20
with Love Conquers Fear that humanity has the next 10 to 15
1:05:25
years to make it to what I'm calling the age of abundance for
1:05:29
all. And I'm confident we're going to
1:05:33
make it. I think there's going to be
1:05:35
some, some, some real disruption, but I'm confident
1:05:39
we're going to make it. But maybe we could just start
1:05:41
with why you started this newsletter and what what have
1:05:48
been the most mind blowing moments for you on this journey?
1:05:52
Because as we're recording this, it's been just over 1000 days
1:05:58
since the launch of ChatGPT. OK, we haven't even hit the
1:06:01
three-year anniversary. It's it's in baseball.
1:06:05
The player is still running to 1st.
1:06:07
That's right. That's right.
1:06:08
And. An exponential curve underway is
1:06:11
unlike any I've seen in my career.
1:06:14
And I've been programming, you know what, since I was seven
1:06:17
years old, since 1979. And, and for me, that's given me
1:06:23
the ability. And I'm.
1:06:24
I'm sure you have the same ability to kind of see where the
1:06:27
puck is going. You know, I remember when, you
1:06:30
know, we're talking about 110 baud modem, I knew that they
1:06:33
were going to get way, way, way faster.
1:06:35
I started with 1200 baud, which now feels fast.
1:06:38
Right. And and you know.
1:06:40
My first printer, I knew it was going to get way, way better.
1:06:43
My first digital camera, I knew it was way better.
1:06:46
I was actually debating with my brother-in-law who went to CMU
1:06:51
and his name's Stu. And he was arguing with me, even
1:06:56
though he's been a technologist for so long.
1:06:58
And I love Stu and like he's very, he's brilliant.
1:07:01
But he was arguing with me on like the digital cameras.
1:07:05
We're not going to replace traditional couch.
1:07:07
I was like Stu, I was like, come on, you've been a technologist
1:07:09
this whole time. You know where this is going to
1:07:11
go. And you know, now it's, it's
1:07:14
like this is pretty much the only camera I have is my phone.
1:07:19
And, you know, yes, there is some trade off, but you know,
1:07:23
we're recording these on high quality cameras, but they're all
1:07:25
digital. So I mean, you know, you can
1:07:28
still get the the nice digital setup for when it really, really
1:07:32
matters. But you know, we're we're at the
1:07:35
beginning of this curve and you've gone all in with AI
1:07:39
powered engineering. So so I'm just curious, like
1:07:41
what moments have been mind blowing for you in the past 2
1:07:45
1/2 years? Yeah, so many and.
1:07:47
And yeah, the reason why I use the term AI powered engineering
1:07:50
is that I see as an engineer, I I don't see engineering going
1:07:56
away or the process of software engineering going away.
1:08:00
I 100% agree with you. I think there's a massive
1:08:02
bifurcation and it's why I don't call it vibe coding.
1:08:05
And I don't have a problem with vibe coding.
1:08:06
We can talk about vibe coding, the role it plays in the world
1:08:09
and the role I think it will continue to play in the world.
1:08:11
But that's different from AI powered engineering.
1:08:13
A powered engineering is engineers that write code
1:08:17
typically have a background, usually like a computer science
1:08:20
degree or some formal training in engineering, not necessarily
1:08:23
just like a three month coding school, which is also a great
1:08:25
and powerful thing. So not to put that down at all.
1:08:28
It's just it's a different path doing a four year degree in
1:08:31
computer science and computer engineering than it is doing a
1:08:34
three month, you know, boot camp in IT.
1:08:37
Both can lead to writing and building software, which is a
1:08:41
wonderful and magical thing I think that everyone should do in
1:08:44
their lives no matter what they do, because it's such a powerful
1:08:47
thing, of course, but different paths and what I think we have
1:08:50
now when it comes to AI making an impact on engineering is,
1:08:55
yeah, what what I've called AI powered engineering.
1:08:59
I put the news on aipoweredengineering.com and
1:09:02
it's because I see AI helping engineers do what they do better
1:09:08
and automate away some of the things that they shouldn't have
1:09:11
to do. So they're using their brain and
1:09:14
their own abilities to their best potential.
1:09:19
And something I talk with our engineering team about and I
1:09:20
talk about in interviews, like when I'm interviewing engineers,
1:09:24
as, as we bring more people onto our team, I always say that I
1:09:29
see engineering in a lot of ways as a creative endeavor.
1:09:33
It's not that. And I said, I, I never will here
1:09:37
as, as ACTO and as an engineering leader, I will never
1:09:40
say, OK, we need you to do this and then do it in this way and
1:09:45
have it done in two weeks. Like I'll never do that.
1:09:48
Never want anyone to work in that environment because I think
1:09:51
that strips away what we can do with our brain that we will
1:09:56
always be able to do better than AI with our brain that that
1:09:59
creative thought of going like, oh interesting here's a problem
1:10:03
I need to solve. Oh, there's a lot of different
1:10:06
ways to solve it. Oh, here, here's an experiment
1:10:08
when I run before I solve it because I think scientific
1:10:11
method plays a role in engineering as well.
1:10:14
And so AI powered engineering is really something that has
1:10:18
encompassed the impact that AI has on how we write code and
1:10:22
build software as engineers. And kind of at the core part of
1:10:27
that stack and a core part of this transformation really is
1:10:31
cursor. And you know, adding something
1:10:34
as simple as an AI panel to an IDE, something that we've been
1:10:38
using forever to write code, we should define what cursor is.
1:10:41
Yes, so cursor. In a little bit of the history.
1:10:44
Of it, you know, for quite a while VS Code has been like the
1:10:48
standard IDE and IDE integrated development environment is
1:10:51
essentially what you're writing code in.
1:10:54
And it's the the big win mostly, which is kind of wild that this
1:10:58
is where we're at because like I said, I still feel like we're
1:11:01
living in the past in a lot of ways.
1:11:03
But the ID gives you really nice color coding in the language
1:11:06
that you're using and auto complete.
1:11:09
So if you're using a certain method or something like that,
1:11:12
you can start typing it and it'll show in Gray.
1:11:15
The rest of the method call it thinks you're going to write
1:11:17
because as a software engineer, you know, you don't necessarily
1:11:20
have to write things that you already know, right and have it
1:11:23
auto complete for you. That that's mostly been what I
1:11:25
DS have been used for, along with for compiled language is
1:11:29
actually compiling and running and those can be all connected
1:11:32
together. And what the team of cursor did
1:11:36
is they forked the S code. And for those who don't know
1:11:38
what that means, that means essentially just taking the code
1:11:40
for VS Code and creating another version of it that you can build
1:11:44
on top of. Yeah, I think forking that term
1:11:47
came out of GitHub. Originally exactly, yeah.
1:11:49
And so they they forked. VS Code and essentially the the
1:11:54
thing that stupefies some people, but actually isn't that
1:11:57
surprising because of how powerful it is, is they added a
1:12:01
panel to the right side that you can open.
1:12:02
That is an AI panel that allows an AI model.
1:12:07
You know, typically, you know, it started out as Chachi BT and
1:12:09
typically now most people are using Anthropic has kind of
1:12:12
become the standard for coding. And so people are using clod and
1:12:16
it was really clod 35 sonnet to put Anthropic on the map and
1:12:21
became kind of the go to model within cursor, but allows you to
1:12:25
have a model, look at your code, understand your code, make
1:12:29
suggestions. And the power of that for
1:12:31
engineers is that the thing that's very hard to keep up with
1:12:36
that that you and I have both lived actually having done this
1:12:38
for a long time because it's it's even become easier now, but
1:12:41
it was much harder a long time ago.
1:12:44
Is the fact that libraries change over time.
1:12:48
The way you call those libraries changes, some of them are
1:12:50
completely deprecated and don't exist anymore.
1:12:52
So you may have a pattern where you're like, Oh yeah, when I
1:12:55
read an Excel file, I use this library to read the Excel file I
1:12:58
load into a panda's data frame and my access and is doing this
1:13:02
and this and that syntax may change.
1:13:05
There may be a better way to do that.
1:13:07
There may be faster ways to store tabular data like that.
1:13:12
And the old way of doing it was originally, oh, I'm going to
1:13:15
read books and oh, there's a new book that came out about, you
1:13:19
know, handling tabular data in Python.
1:13:21
I'm going to get that book. And that evolved to, oh, now
1:13:24
there's YouTube channels and I can watch somebody talk to me on
1:13:27
YouTube about, oh, hey, you know, if you thought Pandas is
1:13:31
cool, check out this new library for reading in tabular data.
1:13:35
And the next evolution of that is you're not reading the book,
1:13:39
you're not watching the YouTube video, You're doing it in real
1:13:43
time time. And you essentially have an
1:13:45
agent sitting next to you that knows everything
1:13:49
up-to-the-minute essentially of how things change, best
1:13:52
practices learned from code being written by everyone all
1:13:56
over the world. And you're benefiting from that
1:13:58
knowledge. And from that, you're becoming a
1:14:01
better engineer, both by learning, by writing better and
1:14:05
more robust code, and by doing the one thing that I think has
1:14:09
wasted the most engineering time.
1:14:11
And what was said to me during engineering school and was true
1:14:14
for a very long time, which is that 99% of coding is debugging.
1:14:19
And debugging is, while it is problem solving and it is
1:14:23
impactful, I believe is a great misuse of the superpower we have
1:14:28
with the human brain. Yeah.
1:14:29
I mean, it's a barrier to being creative.
1:14:32
And yes. And I mean, I, I don't know if
1:14:35
this is true for you, I imagine it was, but I used to dream and
1:14:38
code and, and a lot of times it was because I was debugging like
1:14:43
I had AI had a problem where it was like so frustrating.
1:14:46
And it was like 2:00 AM and I'm like, I've got to go to sleep
1:14:49
because I've got to go to school.
1:14:50
I don't want to go to school, but I've got to go to school
1:14:52
and, and I would dream about it and I would have the answer in
1:14:57
the morning and I would be like, OK, I know what it is.
1:15:00
I'd go and I've got to do this real quick.
1:15:02
But you know, Mom, I'm going to skip breakfast, isn't it?
1:15:05
I'm the same way. I learned that in college.
1:15:07
In college, I remember I was up like really late.
1:15:09
I'm delusional, I'm drinking Mountain Dew and I, I couldn't
1:15:12
solve the problem and I, I went to bed really angry about it and
1:15:17
I woke up in the morning and I dreamed about it and I was like,
1:15:20
oh, here's the solution. I, I was so excited to try it.
1:15:22
And but that is, that is a waste of our brain and computers
1:15:28
already can do a much better job debugging code then we can for
1:15:33
most scenarios. There's still some really
1:15:35
challenging esoteric stuff if you're working on, you know,
1:15:38
quantum computing software to work with new chips that are
1:15:43
pushing the limit of what you you can do with qubits.
1:15:44
Like, OK, maybe the human brain could still be used for the
1:15:47
debugging of that. But for general stuff that most
1:15:51
people are doing every day with coding that can be handled by
1:15:54
AI. And then you can continue to
1:15:55
focus on the really creative. Yeah, use our beautiful brains
1:16:00
or creativity. So.
1:16:02
So it sounds like cursor was a real epiphany moment for you,
1:16:06
for every, for everybody, for everybody.
1:16:08
It seems so simple. A lot of people even still say,
1:16:12
oh, they didn't do anything special.
1:16:13
Like it's a fork of VS Code. They took existing code.
1:16:17
It's a foundational shift in how software is, is, is written
1:16:20
without a shadow of a doubt. It's the integration of, you
1:16:23
know, foundational models into the, the way that we write in
1:16:27
debug code. Well, a lot of the best
1:16:28
businesses. Honestly are very simple ideas,
1:16:33
but that doesn't mean that they can be implemented easily
1:16:37
correct there's less there's a lot that that goes behind the
1:16:41
scenes at cursor to make it work.
1:16:44
And so it's you know but it should be easy to be explained I
1:16:49
mean it was very easy for me to explain bizarre voice, but I was
1:16:52
like look what I'm explaining to you is the tip of the iceberg in
1:16:55
terms of what actually makes this work.
1:16:58
You know we've there was it was kind of annoying and you know
1:17:01
one of those annoying things back in the past, but we use the
1:17:04
same iceberg slide that everybody used in sales back
1:17:07
then to show like the tip of the iceberg and all the stuff that
1:17:10
made bizarre voice work. But it was true.
1:17:13
I mean, that was why that was why when we started Bizarre
1:17:15
voice, there were only three customers in the entire, there
1:17:18
were only three retailers rather than entire United States had
1:17:21
customer reviews. And it's because they A, were
1:17:25
afraid to put on their site in terms of new retailers getting
1:17:29
approval because are they really going to embrace the voice of
1:17:32
the negative customer? And B, they needed to staff up
1:17:37
for the moderation to make sure nothing profane or racist or
1:17:42
sexist poster. Because imagine if you're
1:17:45
Walmart and some horrible sexist thing on a product page.
1:17:50
And here's now all of a sudden in the news for that.
1:17:53
I remember when the head of PR for all of Walmart called me
1:17:58
while I was in an executive team off site at bizarre Voice.
1:18:01
And she said, I want you to know we are the most talked about
1:18:05
person, place or thing in the United States except for the
1:18:07
president. And if you make one mistake when
1:18:11
you launch customer reviews on Walmart, you are fired
1:18:14
immediately. And I went back to the off site
1:18:18
and I told the team I was like, hey, you know, we need to we
1:18:22
need to triple up on moderation here because if we get fired by
1:18:26
Walmart, I'm pretty sure the business is just over.
1:18:30
And you know, fortunately we didn't and we did good job.
1:18:33
But but it was one of those moments where it was pretty
1:18:36
intense. It's incredible to think of an
1:18:37
e-commerce world without. Ratings and reviews.
1:18:40
It is. It is.
1:18:41
Yeah. Yeah, it is.
1:18:42
Now, I mean, you know, now, now bizarre voice says, I think
1:18:45
16,000 customers and 50 international languages and it's
1:18:49
all over the world. Most people don't realize that
1:18:51
they're like. You know, people are so used to
1:18:53
ratings and reviews being on websites, they don't realize
1:18:55
that that was like pioneered by Bizarre Voice and is still
1:18:58
what's powering it on pretty much every website there.
1:19:01
But I mean, it's it's. Similar to to bold metrics.
1:19:03
It's like the Intel inside type of thing.
1:19:05
That's what I've always nobody really knows the brand unless
1:19:08
they're would there be a buyer of bizarre voice, whether like
1:19:11
VPS of e-commerce and CM OS and head of merchandise and things
1:19:15
like that. So, so getting back to AI
1:19:18
powered engineering, what what were some of the other moments
1:19:23
where you're like, oh man, this, this really does change
1:19:26
everything that I own. Yeah.
1:19:27
I mean, this year was a very pivotal.
1:19:29
One I think for AI powered engineering as a whole, because
1:19:33
with cursor coming out, so cursor came out and then
1:19:36
windsurf came out also as a fork of ES code and started competing
1:19:39
against cursor. Cursor was already pretty far
1:19:41
ahead and matches with the thesis of Brian Kim is from
1:19:45
Andreessen. Horace has talked about this
1:19:46
idea of Momentum as a Moat and Cursor just got amazing.
1:19:49
Momentum had a ton of users and so Windsurf was able to get a
1:19:53
chunk of those, but but Cursor already had a lot of people
1:19:58
using it at that point in time. And what's so fascinating about
1:20:01
it is, you know, who is left behind is Microsoft with the S
1:20:06
code and with GitHub Copilot. And I was at GitHub Universe
1:20:11
last year and watching. Microsoft and brilliant people
1:20:16
at Microsoft. So no, no knock on Microsoft
1:20:18
here. It's tricky when you know you're
1:20:20
the Titanic and you're you're competing against somebody on a
1:20:23
speedboat. And so that's those are tricky
1:20:25
moves to make. But you know, they added multi
1:20:29
model to get up copilot. That was the big announcement at
1:20:34
GitHub Universe last year, and I was in the room when they
1:20:37
announced it, right? And I remember thinking, whoa,
1:20:41
they're so far behind. That's the big announcement.
1:20:46
I can't believe it. I thought it'd be something much
1:20:48
more foundational. That was a trivial ad,
1:20:51
essentially powerful ad. The trivial ad.
1:20:54
The real big shift that happened this year that I don't think
1:20:57
anyone thought would be the shift, and this is kind of a
1:20:59
misunderstood thing about foundational models when they're
1:21:02
used in coding, is that just because you select a model from
1:21:06
a drop down within a program, it doesn't mean that those are all
1:21:10
the same. Like you're, you're calling it
1:21:13
through an API, you're calling it with, you know, a different
1:21:16
set of configurations and parameters and all kinds of
1:21:19
things. I won't get into the the Super,
1:21:21
you know, low level details of it, but it's not the same.
1:21:25
So when I select plot 35 Sonnet in cursor, I'm not necessarily
1:21:29
getting the exact same response and the exact same type of
1:21:34
analysis that I would if I select Claude 35 Sonnet and get
1:21:37
a copilot or if I select Claude 35 Sonnet in whatever other
1:21:40
software that I use. And So what Entropic did that
1:21:45
was kind of very smart all across 2 vectors is they
1:21:50
introduced something in April this year called Claude code,
1:21:54
which was the ability to leverage Claude as ACLI, which
1:21:58
is command line interface, which as a lot of developers, we
1:22:01
still, this is another place where like we are living in the
1:22:04
past this, we're going to feel like dinosaurs.
1:22:07
But I took a Unix class when I was like 13 years old with, with
1:22:11
a, with a good friend of mine, Zavin, who's who we, you know,
1:22:16
we said at the time we were learning Unix, we were learning
1:22:19
Unix commands. And we thought, boy, it's
1:22:21
probably going to be irrelevant in like 5 years, right?
1:22:24
And it's like, no, no, no, Still today when you're writing code,
1:22:27
still today, when you're committing to GitHub like
1:22:29
you're, you're in the command line.
1:22:31
And so developer and Linux is the foundation of most.
1:22:33
Of the Internet, Yes, exactly. Yeah, like Mac Ross always tell
1:22:36
people. You're running on, you know, you
1:22:37
open up a terminal, There it is. You know the Neil Stephenson
1:22:39
book in the beginning. Was the command line.
1:22:41
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Amazing book you can get it for.
1:22:43
Free online snow. Crash is like my all time
1:22:45
favorite book. Yeah, I mean, he's one of my
1:22:47
favorite authors. I'm actually reading 70s right
1:22:49
now, which I haven't read until now, but in the beginning was a
1:22:55
command line. He predicted that Linux would
1:22:58
win over over Microsoft on the Internet, and he was right.
1:23:02
So it's really amazing vision. Yeah.
1:23:05
Most people don't realize that like.
1:23:07
Mac OS has this beautiful window manager called Aqua that sits on
1:23:12
top of, you know, the most robust, powerful operation
1:23:15
system of all time that we still use everyday.
1:23:17
And so Claude introduced Claude code, which was the ability to
1:23:22
work agentically with, you know, a coding agent.
1:23:27
And that was essentially the, the evolution of this might not
1:23:31
be very well known actually. And it was.
1:23:33
And here's a part of it that that is known by some, but but
1:23:36
should be known by more, which is there was a company called
1:23:39
Klein, which is still a company. How do you spell it?
1:23:43
CLINEI don't like the vineyard. Yes, actually yes, cuz we're
1:23:47
pretty close to Napa. Right now, sure.
1:23:49
Yeah, yeah. Flying vineyards.
1:23:50
That's why I was always a pit stop ever.
1:23:52
And I were driving up there. Yeah, yeah.
1:23:54
I wonder if there's a name. I wonder why he was named that.
1:23:57
So Klein essentially was the first person to, or the first
1:24:02
company to come up with this idea of agent mode.
1:24:06
So rather than needing to continually ask an LLMA question
1:24:11
when you're coding, you could actually use it in an agent mode
1:24:15
where you would then do like agentic coding and agentic code
1:24:19
assistance. And they came up with that.
1:24:21
That was AVS code extension. And if someone from Klein is
1:24:25
watching this and I'm I'm misrepresenting it, definitely
1:24:27
feel free to correct it somewhere.
1:24:28
This is the best of my knowledge of it, but I want to give credit
1:24:31
where credit is due. We'll have, maybe we'll have
1:24:33
them on. They're phenomenal company.
1:24:35
Yeah. And just, they just raised
1:24:37
around led by emergence and they, they came up with that
1:24:43
concept of rather than as a, if you're using, you know, AI
1:24:46
within your coding journey, rather than prompting back and
1:24:49
forth and you essentially being the human agent, actually doing
1:24:54
it agentically. And that really took off Cursor
1:24:58
saw that and added agent mode. And that's what cursor now when
1:25:02
you when you open up the ID, it defaults to agent mode because
1:25:05
then so popular be careful. You have to have some guardrails
1:25:08
in agent mode. And this this is something we'll
1:25:10
probably talk about a little later, but is some of the
1:25:12
challenges with vibe coding today is that you have a lot of
1:25:14
stuff running in agent mode, but that took off and Throic saw
1:25:18
that. And so then they released Claude
1:25:20
code, which is their, you know, AI coding agent that lives
1:25:24
within the CLI. And that was the tipping point.
1:25:27
That is like far and beyond change the way that software is
1:25:32
built globally. And Tropic is at the core of
1:25:35
that. And and Claude Code, and this
1:25:36
is, and This is why, you know, we're talking about, you were
1:25:38
saying like, you know, we're only 1000 days into ChatGPT.
1:25:41
That's right. You know, April is when that
1:25:44
came out. April is really when there was a
1:25:46
tipping point for AI powered engineering.
1:25:48
Yeah. Were so early yeah yeah is
1:25:51
actually my Co founder and CTO Brian Jacob at dated out world
1:25:55
which now ServiceNow owns where he when Claude code came out
1:26:01
because Brian is a brilliant brilliant CTO he immediately was
1:26:06
like OK this changes everything and and then honestly the team
1:26:11
at dated out world has now become more like a conductors of
1:26:15
a micro struct yeah in terms of these AI agents and they're able
1:26:19
to express a lot more creativity as a result of that so let me
1:26:25
let me get you a play futurist for a moment because because
1:26:28
you've been you you've been doing tech for a long time like
1:26:31
me another thousand days yeah where where are we at with with
1:26:37
AI powered engineering 1000 days from now yeah I mean we won't
1:26:41
see the. Level of progress that we have
1:26:45
seen in the last 1000 days because it's been so much that's
1:26:49
happened, right. So I think you do have some
1:26:52
leveling off in some ways just in period you're saying or not
1:26:55
necessarily just in that a lot of the foundation has now been
1:26:59
built. So I think the core changes
1:27:03
like, oh, I as a software engineer, I'm not just going to
1:27:07
sit and write code line by line. I'm going to now use an AI agent
1:27:13
to assist in that process. And I think that foundational
1:27:17
shift now lives on for a very long time.
1:27:20
And you don't have anything that big that happens in the next
1:27:23
1000 days. What happens in the next 1000
1:27:25
days is that the, the two key areas that I see for like very,
1:27:30
very necessary improving on foundational models that are
1:27:33
very, very tricky to solve are hallucinations in memory, right?
1:27:37
And so right now we still have relatively limited context
1:27:40
windows like GPT 5 is like 128,000 token context window.
1:27:45
You know, Gemini and Claude both came out with a million token
1:27:48
context windows. Those are those are still
1:27:50
relatively small when you're looking at very large production
1:27:53
code bases. So I see probably a lot of
1:27:56
innovation, particularly when you look at an impact on AI
1:27:59
coding on context window side and memory and persistence.
1:28:05
And the other is hallucinations, which is probably the hardest
1:28:08
problem of all or to solve. Yeah, because of the way these
1:28:12
LLMS actually work. Yeah, yeah.
1:28:15
Because that's like we need a paradigm.
1:28:17
Shift in the way they. Work yeah because because the
1:28:21
the creative potential of them is the reason why they
1:28:26
hallucinate yes and the creative potential is amazing yeah I mean
1:28:29
like like my ability to brainstorm with an AI is amazing
1:28:36
because what a lot of people most people have not actually
1:28:40
used cha chi PT even today in the world out of the seven. 100
1:28:45
million people. That have ever tried it once.
1:28:49
Only 10% of them use it daily. Yeah, exactly.
1:28:53
And so you've got the majority of the world not using them, but
1:28:59
I implore people to use it because you have all of
1:29:04
humanity's content, whether it's, you know, the Bhagavad
1:29:08
Gita, the, the Delta Ching, or, you know, any scientific
1:29:14
literature through the ages, any historical records, etcetera, in
1:29:19
every single language that is of any scale in the world.
1:29:26
And being able to talk to it like you would talk to a human
1:29:31
being and get answers. You know what give you an
1:29:35
example? Like when we were in Japan last
1:29:37
year, I, I'm a vegetarian. I've been a vegetarian for, for
1:29:42
15 years now. It's a tricky diet in Japan,
1:29:45
believe it or not, Japan, like they'll sneak bacon into
1:29:48
Brussels sprouts or something. And, and so I, you know, I, I'm
1:29:52
serious about my diet and there's a lot of reasons why,
1:29:55
why I do it. And you know, the best example I
1:29:58
could give of anybody that's listening to this right now or
1:30:03
watching this is that I have better biomarkers at age 53 than
1:30:08
I did at 40, better cholesterol, better resting heart rate,
1:30:11
better blood pressure. But anyway, so I'm in Japan and
1:30:15
I want to book these, one of these 10 restaurants.
1:30:21
And so I asked ChatGPT to prepare a report.
1:30:24
This is a year ago. This would be much easier to
1:30:27
prepare a report looking at all the reviews written by Japanese
1:30:33
customer in Japanese and look for the common patterns that
1:30:40
would make them suitable for vegetarians in the eye.
1:30:42
And then stack rank it for me and include excerpts of those
1:30:45
reviews. But do it in English.
1:30:47
Yeah. And I mean, that's like, you
1:30:50
know, took maybe, you know, 30 minutes of research for
1:30:55
something that I literally would not be able to do.
1:30:58
Like in this past, I would have had to hire a Japanese
1:31:00
translator to give me that or I wouldn't need to just put all my
1:31:05
faith in a concierge to help me navigate that.
1:31:09
And most people aren't vegetarian.
1:31:11
And so that concierge probably be like, I want to really be
1:31:14
doing this. And like, why does this guy just
1:31:17
eat fish? You know, Japan or whatever
1:31:19
they'd be thinking and, and, and you know, and then you know,
1:31:24
this, this year we went back to Japan.
1:31:27
We love Japan. And you can be in any esoteric
1:31:32
temple and take a photo of, you know, Zen Buddhist art and
1:31:37
immediately get the background on it.
1:31:39
Or you can do it with video now too.
1:31:41
You can just take a video of the whole site and get it to explain
1:31:44
everything to you. And, and so if people aren't
1:31:49
using these just as like a virtual travel agent, yeah,
1:31:52
they're missing out. But, but you've got to think
1:31:55
differently because it's the first time in human history
1:31:57
where you can now talk to humanity's content archive
1:32:02
throughout the ages. It's such an interesting
1:32:05
example. You gave because this is how my
1:32:06
dad ended up really becoming a heavy user of ChatGPT.
1:32:11
He also fell in love with Japan, goes to Japan two or three times
1:32:15
a year and him and I go to Japan together every year.
1:32:18
It's it's our father, son and we go to a different part of Japan.
1:32:23
And through his Japan trips, he became very fascinated in
1:32:26
collecting Japanese scrolls. He's older, kind of semi
1:32:29
retirement. Everyone picks up a hobby, pick
1:32:31
up that as a hobby. And he started like finding
1:32:34
these, like, scroll shops in Kyoto and other places and
1:32:38
coming back with lots of scrolls.
1:32:39
You know, I was in a lot of scrolls.
1:32:41
And what he finds very interesting about it is that
1:32:43
those scrolls contain history. Some of them are Japanese
1:32:47
scrolls. Some of them try to be Chinese
1:32:48
scrolls, but of a time where, like, not as much is documented.
1:32:52
And some of these are revealing stories of, you know, a totally
1:32:57
different period that that really hasn't necessarily been
1:32:59
documented in these particular experiences.
1:33:01
But he started using ChatGPT maybe 800 days ago, you know,
1:33:07
very early with Tachi BT to take photographs of the scrolls and
1:33:11
get translations of the Japanese text coupled with the image,
1:33:16
coupled with when it might be from to understand the story.
1:33:21
And for him, it totally enriched that journey.
1:33:24
And when we go to Japan, it's like anytime we go to a temple
1:33:27
or a shrine, he's taking pictures and sending to ChatGPT.
1:33:31
And so that the exact experience where the only way that you
1:33:35
would experience that two years ago really is if you maybe like,
1:33:39
did a Google search, tried to find the shrine, and then you'd
1:33:42
read a couple paragraphs on Wikipedia or about it.
1:33:44
But you're not translating something that you find chiseled
1:33:47
on the side of the wood of the shrine that has never really
1:33:50
been documented. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah.
1:33:52
I mean, it's such a fascinating. Time and it's it's it's why I I
1:33:58
am confident that we're going to make it to this age of abundance
1:34:01
for all that we are manifesting a better world right now.
1:34:07
And it's really hard for people to see because there are going
1:34:12
to be disruptions along the way. I mean, there definitely are
1:34:15
there is going to be job loss. But one of the theses I've had
1:34:20
since the beginning of this journey for me, you know, if you
1:34:25
go back in time to March of 2023, four months after ChatGPT
1:34:30
launch, there was a moratorium call where Elon Musk and 37,000
1:34:34
people said shut it down, do not develop any more powerful than
1:34:38
this. A six month pause.
1:34:41
And I thought it was totally ridiculous because if you look
1:34:44
at the arc of human history, we've always been technology
1:34:48
driven, starting with the discovery of fire.
1:34:50
And it would be like me telling you if I had a try back then,
1:34:56
like, hey, I've discovered fire. No, I'm not going to give you
1:34:58
fire. So I'm like, this just fights
1:35:00
human nature. Like we always want to create
1:35:03
easier lives and better lives. And one of the things that I I
1:35:08
proposed back then and why I thought the moratorium call was
1:35:12
ridiculous was on this podcast called Austin Next, where Worley
1:35:16
and I were jamming. He was, he was on an episode of
1:35:18
this podcast. You're going to love that
1:35:19
episode. And.
1:35:22
We were jamming. On that episode, and we found
1:35:24
out we had a lot in common, that we saw a future of billions of
1:35:29
personalized services and products that could not be
1:35:32
imagined today. It was the barrier to creativity
1:35:34
was just being shattered right in front of our eyes.
1:35:38
And that's even more true right now.
1:35:40
Like, you know, you and I have been talking about that.
1:35:42
I think capitalistically, the next five years are the most
1:35:47
amazing years of capitalism in human history.
1:35:51
Yeah, all the amount of opportunities are.
1:35:53
Staggering. And I I I very confidently
1:35:57
believe that more jobs will be created than lost.
1:36:00
I agree with you. I agree.
1:36:02
With you, I just think the disruption has people concerned.
1:36:06
But but here's the thing for for anybody watching this or
1:36:09
listening to this, everything is going to be remade around the
1:36:14
AI. So one thing that I don't want
1:36:16
people to assume and seeing two kind of tech guys talk about
1:36:20
this is that I'm talking about plumbing is going to be remade,
1:36:25
electrical, you know, electricians, that whole
1:36:29
industry is going to be remade. Every single thing you can think
1:36:33
of retail is going to be remade to be AI powered.
1:36:39
And the reason that I want to emphasize that is that I think
1:36:44
you and I should talk about just briefly like what someone should
1:36:50
do watching this that is not technology centered at all right
1:36:55
now. They're just, let's just say
1:36:57
that they're a great creative writer and they've been writing
1:37:00
for their whole life or they're a great artist, but they're
1:37:03
really don't really like to be on the computer that much or, or
1:37:06
they are, you know, a plumber or like.
1:37:08
Nutrition. And they're like, you know, I
1:37:10
don't really, I don't really understand why these guys are
1:37:13
talking about cursor and all this stuff.
1:37:15
I don't, you know. What?
1:37:17
What would what? Advice would you have to them on
1:37:21
getting started? Yeah, Yeah, great question.
1:37:24
What would you what would you say on top?
1:37:25
First off, I believe like we as humans love experimenting.
1:37:30
Absolutely. And sometimes there can be like
1:37:33
a fear of experimenting because you're going into an area of
1:37:36
unknown and we as humans are are biased to fear the unknown.
1:37:39
This has into spirituality stuff as well, right?
1:37:43
And I think it comes down to experimenting.
1:37:45
And I usually recommend people experiment with multiple forms
1:37:49
of LLMS because they are very different.
1:37:51
And it's definitely important for me to talk, talk about a
1:37:53
little bit about Perplexity in our conversation because
1:37:57
Perplexity has Perplexity has has foundationally changed my
1:38:01
life and changed our company. Bold Metrics is one of the first
1:38:04
companies to go comet wide for the entire company.
1:38:08
So I actually worked with Perplexity to get Comet invites
1:38:10
to Perplexity Comet, their AI powered browser for every single
1:38:13
person in our comet. Yeah, yeah, I have that.
1:38:16
I have. Their browser too, and Comet is.
1:38:19
Unbelievably powerful and I would recommend that.
1:38:22
Honestly, when people ask me, hey, I haven't really gotten
1:38:25
that into ChatGPT or what can I do to get started?
1:38:28
I actually recommend people start with either Perplexity
1:38:31
Comet or a company called the browser company makes a browser
1:38:34
called DIA. They were just acquired by
1:38:36
Atlassian. But that browser is only going
1:38:37
to get better. Those are like, how do you spell
1:38:39
DIADIA? Yeah.
1:38:41
Like day in Spanish. And I haven't used Dia, but I
1:38:46
DIA is phenomenal. Josh and Hirsch are the
1:38:48
founders. Of the company actually, I went
1:38:49
through a lean startup machine with early before bold metrics.
1:38:53
I got to know those guys early in their journey.
1:38:55
Brilliant guys, very passionate product people.
1:38:58
They built something very special perplexity has as well
1:39:01
with Comet and I believe actually that the starting point
1:39:03
for a lot of people if they haven't jumped in necessary with
1:39:06
ChatGPT because everybody pushes people start with ChatGPT use
1:39:09
that. I actually think people should
1:39:11
start with AI powered browsers. Actually, if you haven't tipped
1:39:15
their toe in the audio, start with Comet or start with DIA.
1:39:18
And, and here's a really great example of A use case that you
1:39:21
can do in both. I open up my e-mail and just
1:39:25
say, you know, unsubscribe me from stuff where I haven't.
1:39:30
I haven't, it looks like a newsletter and I haven't clicked
1:39:32
to open any of them the last three times they've sent it.
1:39:36
And it can go through Gmail and do that.
1:39:38
Or I can say, I want to take a log of all of the flights that
1:39:41
I've taken and I want to make sure that I've gotten the miles
1:39:46
credited properly. Can you go through my e-mail and
1:39:50
look at all my past flights? And then let's log into American
1:39:54
Airlines or United and review this.
1:39:56
And it can identically do these things for you.
1:40:00
And so that's one of the easiest like low hanging fruits to use
1:40:04
LMS in a way that you already have an existing workflow
1:40:08
because everybody that uses the Internet today uses it as.
1:40:12
Use it through a browser in most cases and what the CEO of
1:40:16
Perplexity talks about a lot is the the browser being like the
1:40:20
OS of the Internet and so well, what would the OS of the
1:40:24
Internet have today that makes it unique?
1:40:27
It would definitely have an AI assistant and be AI powered and
1:40:30
have an energetic piece to it. So that I always recommend.
1:40:33
And perplexity is also a very interesting LLM for people that
1:40:35
want to avoid hallucinations because perplexity, what makes
1:40:39
it different from from a foundational modeling standpoint
1:40:43
from Claude or from Chachi PT or from Gemini is that there has to
1:40:50
be very specific high trust sources for essentially every
1:40:55
sentence that is provided back as a response.
1:40:59
And that's why Perplexity really labels itself as a a discovery
1:41:04
engine and is very focused on it was really inspired.
1:41:08
If you've heard any talks with with Arvin, the CEO, he talks
1:41:11
about being inspired by, you know, like academic papers and
1:41:15
needing to have sources to backup everything you say.
1:41:18
And so I think perplexity is a very important part of the
1:41:20
journey because I see people sometimes get turned off by LMS
1:41:24
because their first experiences as ChatGPT has some weird
1:41:28
hallucinations and they go, oh, now I don't trust this.
1:41:31
And so using different models, try perplexity, try ChatGPT.
1:41:35
And then, you know, honestly, I think the path my dad took was
1:41:38
such a good one. When you're going to use
1:41:39
ChatGPT, like use it for something that you would
1:41:43
actually use it for. Don't just ask it silly
1:41:46
questions to see how it works as you're like kind of fun personal
1:41:50
assistant, but you're like, it's more novelty.
1:41:52
Give a real use case. And so I say for a lot of
1:41:54
people, start with your hobby. OK, so like for my dad, it was
1:41:58
he's into scrolls and it's like, oh, cool, you can take a picture
1:42:01
of the scroll and get all this information.
1:42:03
If you're into mountain biking, try plugging in a lot of things
1:42:07
related to mountain biking, including photographs, including
1:42:10
text, and use it for something that's not a novelty purpose,
1:42:13
but it's actually something applicable in your own life.
1:42:15
Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree.
1:42:16
I mean, I mean, that's. That's the thing that people be
1:42:19
astounded by when they start to use it is that no matter what
1:42:22
you're into, it could be the most esoteric, like collectible,
1:42:26
you know, like for your girls, but it could be whatever, I
1:42:29
mean, be Pokémon or, you know, Pokémon.
1:42:31
It's not that esoteric, but it could be.
1:42:33
You know, I have these old Japanese toys from when I was
1:42:38
like 8 or 10 years old and it's based on a Japanese program from
1:42:42
back then. And I'm not that into it.
1:42:44
So I can't remember the name of her right now, but our youngest
1:42:47
daughters like super into anime and and, you know, I could just
1:42:52
go to town on that all day long. I mean, I've gotten, you know,
1:42:56
super into ancient spirituality and the unification of all
1:43:02
things that that what did they have in common?
1:43:04
Like what is the being have in common with the Gita has a
1:43:08
common with Kabbalah, which came out of early Judaism has in
1:43:12
common with ancient Christian mysticism, Buddhism, etcetera.
1:43:17
And they're, they have a lot in common, which is really cool.
1:43:20
Like, and so I've I've done all types of deep research reports
1:43:23
on that and then I turned to the source material itself.
1:43:26
Like I recently read the Gita and read the, you know, directly
1:43:31
and, you know, it's so, so much fun.
1:43:34
Like, you know, for me, I would say that my rate of learning has
1:43:41
gone exponential in the past, in the past couple of years.
1:43:44
Cause anything I'm curious about or anything I hear about which I
1:43:47
don't know anything about which I, which kind of sparks like a
1:43:52
little bit of that. I think I should know something
1:43:54
about that. I just, I just go to Chachi PT
1:43:59
or to Claude or to Gemini and I start to learn about it.
1:44:03
And The thing is that, you know, people could look at us and say,
1:44:08
Oh well, they're, you know, successful tech entrepreneurs.
1:44:11
But here's the thing. These things cost $20.00 a
1:44:13
month. Yeah, exactly.
1:44:14
I mean, perplexity is 20 bucks a month.
1:44:18
Like anybody watching this probably use it for free push
1:44:22
subscription, right? You could use it.
1:44:24
You can also use it for free. Exactly.
1:44:25
And you can use ChatGPT for free.
1:44:27
And actually these things are progressing so fast that freeze
1:44:31
pretty damn good. So that that's a that's a really
1:44:35
good point. But but you know, it will be,
1:44:38
you know, paying $20.00 a month for like Perplexity or for
1:44:43
ChatGPT or for Clawed will be way more valuable to you than a
1:44:47
Netflix subscription if you want to invest in your future.
1:44:52
I mean, think of the value proposition.
1:44:54
If you were to talk to anybody 10 years ago about this, they
1:44:58
would tell you you're crazy if you said $20.00 a month.
1:45:01
All of the knowledge in the world, from scientific knowledge
1:45:07
to academic knowledge to really deep.
1:45:10
Every detail of Japanese anime. You could ask it about a
1:45:13
specific episode of a specific season and a detail and pass it
1:45:17
a photo of it. It could tell you about that.
1:45:19
All the knowledge in the world. You can ask it questions for as
1:45:22
long as you want. It remembers stuff, personalizes
1:45:26
to you, and it's $20.00 a month. Oh, and by the way, you can do
1:45:30
it in any language. Yeah.
1:45:32
Oh, and you can do it on this thing that you put in your.
1:45:33
Pocket right, It doesn't. Matter if you're Japanese,
1:45:36
doesn't matter if you're Chinese.
1:45:38
You can, you can do it anywhere, Yes.
1:45:41
And you can do it across languages, which is part of the,
1:45:44
you know, the Babel fish future, right?
1:45:46
Was in Hitchhiker's got that. Just it just blows my mind
1:45:49
sometimes to to think about what I'm actually doing.
1:45:52
Yeah. With it, I think you hit on
1:45:54
something very important. Though, which is that, you know,
1:45:56
I think a lot of people when they, when they ask me a similar
1:45:58
question that you asked me, like, oh, how do I get started?
1:46:01
They assume I'm going to say, OK, you should start by writing
1:46:04
some code and build some simple stuff for it.
1:46:06
And I never recommend that because maybe people will get
1:46:09
their journey, maybe they won't. I don't know it, it really is
1:46:12
what you said, I think is the key is that we are living in a
1:46:15
time where I do think you owe it to yourself to be able to learn
1:46:20
more and at a faster pace than ever before because that's more
1:46:24
accessible. And we as humans are naturally
1:46:26
curious. And now you're able to actually
1:46:30
quench that like curiosity, thirst, more so than you ever
1:46:33
have in human history and, and, and literally for anything you
1:46:36
want. To do like if I, if I was
1:46:38
interested in becoming a plumber, I sure go to Chachi BT
1:46:43
and I could say prepare a five week course complete with
1:46:47
YouTube videos of, of walk me through how to become an
1:46:51
advanced plumber. Yes, over this five week course.
1:46:54
And it would just do that. Yeah, I'm doing that with
1:46:55
woodworking. I feel like they're learning
1:46:57
woodworking for the first time and I'm doing it all with chat
1:47:00
TBT and saying let's come up with some basic projects.
1:47:02
And the really neat thing is unlike, and This is why I say
1:47:04
there's this evolution of like we used to learn from books and
1:47:08
then we learn from YouTube videos.
1:47:10
And the the change now is it's interactive because the YouTube
1:47:13
video is better than the book. If I have a book about
1:47:15
woodworking and I'm seeing some pictures of it, OK, that's OK.
1:47:19
But there's steps in between. I miss YouTube.
1:47:21
It's like, now I can watch the person actually do it.
1:47:25
But with ChatGPT, I can show it. Hey, I got this.
1:47:29
I think it's level. Is this the way it's supposed to
1:47:31
be? Here's a picture of it.
1:47:32
They can say it looks like you have to actually turn it.
1:47:34
Now I actually have the interactivity of having like
1:47:37
intelligence, like an agent helping me as I learn.
1:47:40
And so you like learning by doing rather than learning by
1:47:43
reading, learning by watching. And now we're in the phase of
1:47:46
learning by doing. Yeah.
1:47:48
So for the the age. Of abundance for all part of the
1:47:51
way I see it happening is it's going to happen through you
1:47:57
know, we AI is going to lead to a cognitive labor revolution.
1:48:01
It's already fascinating, but it's getting more and more
1:48:05
embodied over time through robots and a lot of people are
1:48:08
terrified of robots because they've seen the Terminator, you
1:48:10
know, Matrix movies or whatever makes great right?
1:48:14
It makes great. Sci-fi.
1:48:15
That's why I've been. Writing, you know, positive
1:48:16
sci-fi, which is an Ozzy was was all about.
1:48:20
Especially, especially with robots and so.
1:48:24
So you know, when we get to nearly unlimited physical labor,
1:48:30
one of the things I write about in, in in my book that's coming
1:48:34
out next year, which is love, conquer, sphere, humanity, AI
1:48:37
and nature abundance for all is that even countries like Chad
1:48:41
where they have a $660 per person GDP versus the US is
1:48:46
around $85,800. You could create an Oasis in
1:48:50
Chad because you could send in an army of robots to go build
1:48:55
all the clean water, some light. I need all the electrical grid,
1:48:58
the solar energy grid to power that, you know, the healthcare
1:49:03
that they need. And if we can create an
1:49:05
abundance in Chad, then we can create on an Asus anywhere in
1:49:12
the world. And you know.
1:49:14
Part of. What was prophesied in ancient
1:49:18
spirituality is this merger of heaven and earth.
1:49:20
And whether you look at it that is metaphorically or mystically,
1:49:24
I do think that it it's this lifetime where that age is upon
1:49:28
us. And I'm just curious if you
1:49:30
agree with that. I do.
1:49:31
I do definitely agree with that, yeah.
1:49:33
Yeah, and you know, I've talked about a little bit like I have
1:49:35
been for most of my life. Well, to a point, I was, I was
1:49:39
very, very scientific as a kid. I was, I was probably way too
1:49:43
scientific as a kid. And then I had an experience
1:49:45
that I'll that I'll share where that changed for me because I
1:49:51
was, I never believed in any kind of afterlife.
1:49:54
I didn't believe in souls or spirits or anything.
1:49:57
I was like everything to be explained by science and math.
1:49:59
And that was how I was until I was, this is probably 14 years
1:50:05
old, I want to say. And I went, I went on a
1:50:09
backpacking camp, one of the things that kind of sparked my
1:50:12
love of backpacking for life and, and connection with nature
1:50:15
in a lot of ways. And my grandmother had cancer
1:50:19
and was, was not doing great, but who knew how long that she
1:50:23
was going to live near. And we'd had a conversation
1:50:26
before I left on the trip. And then I didn't know we were
1:50:30
out back. And this was at a point in time,
1:50:32
you know, when I was 14. We're in the, you know, 90s, no
1:50:36
cell phones, there's no e-mail. Everything is delivered by
1:50:39
letter. And you know, I, I would say
1:50:43
probably like a couple days into the trip, I kind of forgot about
1:50:45
all that stuff with family. I was deep into this.
1:50:48
I'm with a bunch of other kids. We're backpacking, we're doing
1:50:51
those trips. And I was having a great time.
1:50:55
And we were we'd had hiked out to we were doing like a multi
1:50:59
day trip was one of the things we did.
1:51:01
And I got to a place and I had like, this has never happened to
1:51:06
me in my entire life. I were there, we're all hanging
1:51:09
out and I felt this incredible steep sadness and this need to
1:51:16
cry like like weeping, weeping cry.
1:51:20
And it just started to come over me and I had to leave the area
1:51:23
and I went and went and saw, but it's like, and I was just crying
1:51:27
and crying, crying. And one of the counselors came
1:51:29
and said, Morgan, Oh my God, what is going on?
1:51:30
Are you OK? I said, I don't know what's
1:51:33
going on. I said, I, I something must be
1:51:36
wrong with me. I can't stop crying.
1:51:37
I don't know what I'm crying about.
1:51:40
And he said, you know, is it something did something bad
1:51:42
happened today? Did one of the other kids say
1:51:44
something to? I said, no, I, I don't know.
1:51:46
I can't stop crying. And it happened for like an
1:51:49
hour. Like I probably cried like
1:51:53
powerful deep crying for like an hour.
1:51:56
One of the most intense crying I've done in my life.
1:51:58
Very weird experience, scary experience.
1:52:02
I was pretty freaked out like that night and the next day I
1:52:07
actually thought there must be something mentally wrong with
1:52:10
me. I must be having some kind of a
1:52:11
mental breakdown, like I should talk to my parents about this
1:52:15
when I get back, I should see a therapist.
1:52:17
Like something went wrong because the next day I felt
1:52:19
normal again. But I couldn't stop thinking
1:52:21
about this thing that had happened, this uncontrollable
1:52:24
thing where I couldn't control my emotions.
1:52:26
And I kind of touch my. I talk about this because it's
1:52:30
such a powerful experience. Two days later, I got a letter,
1:52:33
and that was the day of my grandmother.
1:52:34
And at about that exact time. And yeah, I at that point, I
1:52:41
thought, I don't know. I don't know what all that
1:52:43
means, right, Right. I don't have an explanation for
1:52:46
that. But clearly I cannot explain
1:52:49
everything to science anymore. And it was really from that
1:52:52
moment forward that I became more, more spiritual and started
1:52:58
to kind of open my mind to those possibilities.
1:53:01
Yeah. Yeah.
1:53:02
Wow. I appreciate you sharing that.
1:53:04
I mean, I'll, I'll share a story back with you.
1:53:08
When bizarre voice went public, the stock traded up and it was a
1:53:14
euphoric time 'cause this was, you know, this is something that
1:53:18
I'd actually when I was 25, I said a goal that I would found a
1:53:21
company and take it public. By the time I was 40 and I
1:53:23
turned 40 on the roadshow and my mom, Fortune was alive.
1:53:26
My dad had passed away and really missed him a lot.
1:53:32
And she was alive to see this, you know, her son taking a
1:53:36
company public over a billion dollar evacuation, you know, and
1:53:41
you know, I was very, I, I, I definitely would consider myself
1:53:44
spiritual and, and even back then, but it's very much kind of
1:53:48
not trapped, but I would say very much in the world of form,
1:53:53
meaning that, you know, it was about capitalism for me.
1:53:56
And like here I am like, you know, oh, you know, taking this
1:53:59
company public and our company's ready the number one place to
1:54:02
work in Austin, etcetera, etcetera.
1:54:04
And there were these bankers in town saying, hey, you know, you
1:54:07
can do a secondary IPO, you can raise more money for the company
1:54:11
because the stocks traded up. And so I was meeting with them,
1:54:15
but my mom was in the hospital really doing poorly.
1:54:19
Like her cancer had gone stage 4.
1:54:21
So I had that meeting and then I'm driving back to the hospital
1:54:27
and my wife calls Deborah and Deborah says, your mom's dying
1:54:31
right now. She puts me on speaker.
1:54:34
I say my goodbyes. I've got tears streaming down my
1:54:37
face. I've riddled with guilt.
1:54:40
I'm like, wow, my own mom. I missed my own mom's death
1:54:44
because of this, you know, desire with bizarre voice of
1:54:48
this duty. And you know, which is important
1:54:50
duty, but but but you know what's more important than your
1:54:54
mom passing away? And I just keep driving, you
1:54:58
know, with tears streaming down my face.
1:55:02
Then 5 minutes later, Deborah calls me back and she's like,
1:55:05
your mom's back alive. She's like, the doctors have no
1:55:08
idea how this is even possible. And I get to the hospital and
1:55:13
she dies with me holding her hand and Deborah holding her
1:55:16
hand and my sister holding her hand.
1:55:19
And how powerful. And this, the doctors, I mean,
1:55:22
it was so beautiful. It was so spiritual.
1:55:24
You can feel the energy and the presence of God or whatever you
1:55:30
want to call that. I call it God, but you could
1:55:32
call it the universe or consciousness.
1:55:34
You could feel it in the room. And the doctor said if you don't
1:55:40
believe in God, you should believe in God now because we've
1:55:43
never seen what just happened. It was just such a incredible
1:55:48
moment. It's, it's something I'll never,
1:55:49
never forget. So there's been many moments
1:55:54
that have made me more spiritual than for sure was one of them.
1:55:58
And part of the suffering I think that we have in the world
1:56:02
today is this dogmatic separation between spirituality,
1:56:07
or I would say religion really, and science.
1:56:10
And the reality is the more you dive into things like quantum
1:56:14
physics, the more you find out that quantum physics and our
1:56:19
reality and what the ancient spiritual masters, you know,
1:56:25
we're looking at and seeing through meditation or through.
1:56:29
It's actually been proven now more and more that they were
1:56:32
using psychedelics to have that deep connection with Source.
1:56:37
And that's been proven in the Immortality Key, which is a
1:56:40
great book by a friend of mine, Brian Marescu.
1:56:42
He's actually going to be on the podcast and you know, here,
1:56:47
here, here we have this dogmatic separation because of in
1:56:53
science. It's hey, I'm not going to
1:56:55
believe it until you prove it to me.
1:56:57
But then all science begins with the miracle, The Big Bang.
1:57:01
So it's like, hey, if you accept the miracle, The Big Bang, I'll
1:57:03
explain everything else to you. And then religion, you know,
1:57:07
there's all this man made rule set that goes around it, which
1:57:10
called turn some people off for for for good reason.
1:57:14
But the core of religion is spirituality, which is that
1:57:18
knowing that happiness comes from the inside because it's a
1:57:21
community with your soul. Yes, yeah.
1:57:25
So you're pretty confident we're going to make it?
1:57:27
It sounds I'm, I'm very, I'm, I'm confident we're going to
1:57:30
make it. I and I feel there are some of
1:57:31
us that have a greater responsibility than others.
1:57:34
I think if you, if you know that you have the ability to help
1:57:39
humanity at this time and, and I think there's a lot, a lot of
1:57:43
different ways to do that. I think for you and I part of
1:57:46
our responsibility comes from from technology and then how AI
1:57:49
is used for good. I think for those of us with
1:57:53
that responsibility, it is such an important time for us to to
1:57:57
deliver on the responsibility that we have.
1:58:00
Yeah, yeah. And you know, I, I totally
1:58:02
respect. People like wanting to use these
1:58:06
technologies to gain wealth and again, the wealth creation
1:58:12
opportunity is probably the best it's ever been.
1:58:14
Over the next five years, people have to take care of their
1:58:18
families and etcetera, etcetera. And that's great.
1:58:24
But but I, but I do want to emphasize that for people even
1:58:28
in the chase like that, that feel like I've just got to grind
1:58:31
all the time. And trust me, I've been there.
1:58:33
I used to work till 2-3 in the morning every single night, you
1:58:36
know, to prove to myself that I could be a successful capitalist
1:58:40
and prove myself that I could create a better outcome for the
1:58:44
world through technology. Dedicate just a little bit of
1:58:48
that time towards lifting up others, you know, because
1:58:51
because that you could have a huge impact and you teach
1:58:55
someone how to fish with perplexity or ChatGPT, you could
1:58:59
just have a huge, huge impact. And it's just so easy to learn.
1:59:03
It really is. So if you can have a
1:59:05
conversation like we're just having a conversation, then you
1:59:08
can talk with these systems and and they'll blow your mind.
1:59:13
So in terms of in terms of thinking about, you know, kind
1:59:18
of where things go from here, you know, do you think that it's
1:59:25
it's like 10 to 15 years that that we have that possibility to
1:59:31
I think the windows that future, I think the windows.
1:59:33
Longer, OK, personally, but I think the next 10 to 15 years
1:59:37
are probably the most crucial. I I can't help but think back to
1:59:41
him. We were talking about this last
1:59:42
night. I'm such a big Isaac Osimov fan
1:59:44
and I think there's a lot of you know, yeah, I know, I know we
1:59:47
share that and I think Isaac Osimov is probably one of the
1:59:51
most accurate futurists of our time in a lot of ways.
1:59:57
He was also a physicist and taught physics.
1:59:59
And so, you know, there's the connection there as well.
2:00:02
But you know the his. Best known book foundation is,
2:00:07
you know, centers around this character, Harry Selden, who's a
2:00:10
psycho historian who predicts there's going to be this huge
2:00:14
downfall and this terrible time period.
2:00:16
And he believes that with psycho history and what he's
2:00:19
developing. And I don't want to give away
2:00:21
the book because there's other stuff that happens the changes
2:00:24
some of this, but that you could reduce the amount of time of
2:00:27
that suffering. And I think we're in a similar
2:00:30
place now where I think there's always the like the search for
2:00:35
humans to to end suffering. And then you look at some like
2:00:39
the Buddhism beliefs about life being suffering and actually
2:00:42
being OK with with some of that suffering.
2:00:44
And I think that you have a very easy point in time now where
2:00:49
they're, you know, you can look at things however you want to
2:00:51
look at them, right? Some people say this is like the
2:00:54
darkest time in human history. But like, if you go back like
2:00:57
they're pretty dark times. There's a lot of great stuff
2:01:00
going on, very dark times. You, you talked.
2:01:02
About the Civil War earlier, that was a pretty dark time.
2:01:04
Pretty dark time. There's a very dark time, so.
2:01:07
I think that we now have the chance to we we were talking
2:01:11
about this more last night. There is an opportunity for
2:01:14
awakening and for a mass awakening of people to be able
2:01:18
to embrace like the change that we need as a society to lift
2:01:22
each other up and move society in an entirely new direction.
2:01:27
And there has never been a greater potential to move it in
2:01:30
a positive direction than there is now.
2:01:32
The timeline is trickier to know, right?
2:01:35
I agree that the next 10 to 15 years are very, very important,
2:01:38
but it could be over the next 50 years that that happens.
2:01:41
But there's some window, just like like Isaac Osimova
2:01:45
postulated in, in Foundation, there's, there's some window of
2:01:48
suffering that will take place. And we have the opportunity to
2:01:53
minimize that window as much as possible and then to come out
2:01:56
the other end in a more positive place than we could have ever
2:02:00
imagined. Yeah, I mean the the.
2:02:02
The thing is whether it's, you know, 10 to 15 years, which is
2:02:05
what I believe, or whether it's, you know, 20-30, forty years, it
2:02:10
means that you and I will most likely be alive for it and have
2:02:14
the chance to make it make an impact the.
2:02:16
Chance to make an impact. Well, this, this has been
2:02:21
amazing. I mean, this has really been
2:02:23
amazing. I really appreciate all the
2:02:25
stories you've shared and showing your heart like that.
2:02:28
Didn't know the story about your grandmother and that that that
2:02:33
was that was beautiful. Thank you.
2:02:35
Yeah. Well, it's an honor.
2:02:36
I I. Am so appreciative of you having
2:02:38
me on here and appreciate that you're doing this I mean this is
2:02:40
an example of what we're talking about the more people that do
2:02:44
this talk about it bring people in and you know what you're
2:02:47
doing is helping people at a time where the network effect of
2:02:51
doing it through something like this is bigger than ever before
2:02:55
and that's that's part of how well thanks so much Yeah, I'm
2:02:57
really I'm really. Putting all out on the field and
2:03:01
including being very transparent about everything in my life life
2:03:05
because I am operating from that place where it is very love
2:03:09
centered. But it is it is an intense time
2:03:13
where I think the exponential curve is so pronounced that the
2:03:18
next 10 to 15 years are the most important years for humanity.
2:03:21
And and so it's going to be it's going to be fun.
2:03:26
I'm here for it, you're here for it and, and let's go.
2:03:29
You're very good person and you're definitely going to help
2:03:33
us manifest a better future for everyone.
2:03:35
I'm, I'm, I'm excited for all of us.
2:03:36
I'm very appreciative. Like, I mean, one thing that
2:03:38
that should be said is that, you know, people like yourself that
2:03:41
have been very, very successful. You were talking about like you
2:03:44
IPO to company by the time you were 40.
2:03:46
I don't know how many people have done that.
2:03:48
It's very, very, very small group people.
2:03:50
You're the only person that I know that has done that.
2:03:53
There are a lot of people that do those things and you
2:03:56
absolutely do not have to do this.
2:03:58
You could just be hanging out on a beach now somewhere forever,
2:04:02
but you're taking your time to do stuff like this.
2:04:05
And I hope this also beyond inspiring people to like get
2:04:08
involved with and try AI if they haven't yet and do some of these
2:04:11
things. I hope it also inspires other
2:04:13
people like yourself that have reached such a high level of
2:04:17
success to dedicate more of their life to this kind of
2:04:20
philanthropy because, you know, you have the ability to make an
2:04:24
outsized impact, which is what you're doing.
2:04:26
I'm very appreciative of you doing.
2:04:27
I really appreciate it. Yeah.
2:04:28
I, I, I'm trying. Yeah.
2:04:31
And the the I really view it as out.
2:04:36
Of the 8.2 billion humans in the world, there's about maybe 2000
2:04:41
that really oppress the majority and determine the rules of the
2:04:47
road. And I am hoping that those
2:04:51
leaders in particular have a real heart shift because they,
2:04:57
you know, this, this age of abundance for all is a very real
2:05:00
outcome for humanity. But we have to manifest it
2:05:03
always with technology. We have free will and we could
2:05:06
use it for bad or good. So I really think that the
2:05:09
biggest challenge is ourselves in that.
2:05:13
So well, this is this is super fun.
2:05:17
So thanks everybody for tuning in to another awesome episode of
2:05:23
love conquers fear. I really, really enjoyed this
2:05:26
and loved the fact that we got to see Morgan's heart as well.
2:05:30
You can see why Deborah and I early on invested in him and
2:05:34
Dana and why is such a natural thing to do and and their
2:05:38
company's doing really great things for the world.
2:05:40
So definitely check out bold metrics.
2:05:44
Stay tuned. I've got an incredible lineup of
2:05:47
scientist coming on, philosophers, spiritual
2:05:51
teachers, as well as, of course, investors and entrepreneurs.
2:05:57
I'm really putting it all in the field to leverage that network
2:06:01
and operating from that principle of love, but also
2:06:04
intensity in terms of how important this period is.
2:06:08
So help spread the word if you're enjoying following along.
2:06:11
I'm having a blast on this and I hope you are too.
2:06:14
Thanks again.