Latest / Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast / Winning vs Losing 2.0

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Winning vs Losing 2.0 · Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast

0:07
SPEAKER_06: Have you ever wondered what goes on behind the table at a dance competition?
0:10
SPEAKER_06: Exactly what are the judges looking for anyway?
0:13
SPEAKER_06: This is Making the Impact, a dance competition podcast.
0:15
SPEAKER_06: Each week we'll cover a different topic related to the world of competitive dance from the perspective of the judges behind the table.
0:26
SPEAKER_06: The very nature of competition includes the need for winners and losers.
0:29
SPEAKER_06: But in our competitive dance world, it's oftentimes not so black and white.
0:33
SPEAKER_06: On this episode of Making the Impact, we bring up an old conversation with fresh perspectives from our guests to dive deeper into the challenges that come with winning and losing.
0:43
SPEAKER_04: Hey Dance World, welcome to this week's episode of Making the Impact.
0:47
SPEAKER_04: I'm your host, Courtney Ortiz, and I'm here, like always, with my co-host, Leslie Mueller.
0:52
SPEAKER_06: Hello, Courtney.
0:53
SPEAKER_06: Hello, listeners.
0:54
SPEAKER_06: We are so glad to be back on the podcast this week talking about winning versus losing.
0:58
SPEAKER_04: Yes, an important topic that we knew we had to bring back to season six because it's been a minute since we brought it up, and it was a popular episode when we did it before.
1:07
SPEAKER_04: So here we are again as we head into the competition season, which is here, it's arrived.
1:13
SPEAKER_06: Any minute now.
1:14
SPEAKER_06: I'm so excited.
1:15
SPEAKER_06: I feel like, you know, it really is one of those things that, like, when you're in the thick of it, you're like, oh, I'm so tired.
1:20
SPEAKER_06: Can I just get a weekend?
1:21
SPEAKER_06: Can I just sleep in on a Saturday?
1:23
SPEAKER_06: But then when it's over, you're like, oh, I wish I was at a dance competition.
1:27
SPEAKER_06: I know.
1:28
SPEAKER_06: So I'm excited to get back to it, even though I I know I'm gonna be tired.
1:31
SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna be exhausted because I will be out every single weekend.
1:35
SPEAKER_04: I only have like two or three weekends off this entire season with Street Stance Convention.
1:41
SPEAKER_04: And we have already started like the moment the new year hit, boom, that first weekend, we were out.
1:46
SPEAKER_04: And there is some fantastic dancing happening on the stage so early in the season.
1:51
SPEAKER_04: So congrats to everyone who's already competed.
1:53
SPEAKER_04: And I can't wait to see more for the next five months.
1:56
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, we're we're in it.
1:57
SPEAKER_06: We're in it to win it.
1:59
SPEAKER_06: So speaking of, we're in it to win it.
2:01
SPEAKER_06: We're gonna get to that topic very shortly.
2:03
SPEAKER_06: But before we do, we have some sponsors to tell you about.
2:05
SPEAKER_06: And listeners, I really do have to say, I listen to a lot of podcasts, and what I appreciate about what we do with our podcast is all of our sponsors are tailored to you, the listener.
2:15
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2:24
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5:18
SPEAKER_04: All right, dance world, as we head into the competition season, we are back to bring one of our very popular episodes from season three over here to season six.
5:28
SPEAKER_04: And we're talking all about winning versus losing.
5:31
SPEAKER_04: A big discussion that happens in the competitive dance world because it's a competition.
5:36
SPEAKER_04: Someone has to be a winner, and someone sadly has to be a loser.
5:40
SPEAKER_04: But how do the dancers handle that rejection?
5:43
SPEAKER_04: Or how do the winners handle the win?
5:46
SPEAKER_04: We have so much to cover in a short amount of time, and I can't wait to bring two guests to this podcast to share their perspectives on this topic.
5:54
SPEAKER_04: We have a brand new guest joining us all the way from Texas.
5:57
SPEAKER_04: I am meeting them for the very first time right here, right now, but I love what they're doing for our dance world.
6:02
SPEAKER_04: We discovered them on social media because they are offering mindset coaching and consulting for gymnasts and dancers.
6:10
SPEAKER_04: So from Champion Mindset Consulting, I'm excited to welcome Emily Williams to our podcast.
6:15
SPEAKER_04: Welcome, Emily.
6:17
SPEAKER_03: Hi.
6:17
SPEAKER_04: Thank you so much for having me.
6:20
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
6:20
SPEAKER_04: And I can't wait to learn and hear about like why and how you got this consulting business started for our much-needed dance and gymnastics world.
6:30
SPEAKER_04: But before we do that, can you tell us a little bit more about you, where you grew up, your early dance training and experience, and then lead us into how you started this biz?
6:41
SPEAKER_03: Yes, of course.
6:42
SPEAKER_03: So I grew up in the Dallas area and went to a studio here that was pretty ballet focused.
6:50
SPEAKER_03: And so that was our main thing.
6:52
SPEAKER_03: We did, you know, jazz modern, the extra stuff too, but we had a lot of performance opportunities.
6:57
SPEAKER_03: We did some competitions.
6:59
SPEAKER_03: So it was really fun.
7:01
SPEAKER_03: And all growing up through high school, that was like my life.
7:04
SPEAKER_03: But then I went off to college and ended up getting a degree in exercise science because I knew I wanted to be involved in helping athletes in some way.
7:14
SPEAKER_03: And initially I was going to actually go work as a PA in orthopedics, but life happens and change of plans.
7:23
SPEAKER_03: I ended up getting a master's degree in sport and exercise psychology.
7:27
SPEAKER_03: And so it's a growing thing.
7:30
SPEAKER_03: I wouldn't say it's a new field by any means, but it's definitely growing and becoming more popular in the past like number of years.
7:39
SPEAKER_03: And so I ended up launching champion mindset consulting and started working with all athletes actually.
7:47
SPEAKER_03: And then over the years have really kind of zoned in and focused on dancers and gymnasts.
7:53
SPEAKER_03: Since dance was obviously my world growing up, and there is a lot of similarities and overlap with gymnastics, even though there's also a lot of differences.
8:02
SPEAKER_03: So those are my two main groups.
8:05
SPEAKER_03: And I basically teach a lot of mental skills to improve performance, help them reach their goals.
8:12
SPEAKER_03: And it has been a lot of fun and it has flown by.
8:16
SPEAKER_04: Wow.
8:17
SPEAKER_04: That is so awesome.
8:19
SPEAKER_04: And it's like I mentioned before we started, so needed for our dance world.
8:24
SPEAKER_04: I think that we forget about the mental aspect of how this really impacts us when we go to it seems like just a simple dance competition and oh, someone has to win first place.
8:34
SPEAKER_04: But like, you know, the rejection and facing that is something that's really hard to overcome, especially for young training dancers, even for us as professional adults, it's hard to navigate.
8:44
SPEAKER_04: So I'm really grateful to see so many services that are popping up in our dance world that are directly related to this.
8:51
SPEAKER_04: So thank you for doing that.
8:52
SPEAKER_04: Of course.
8:53
SPEAKER_04: And you know what's funny when you were saying how gymnastics and dance are are similar, but different but similar.
8:59
SPEAKER_04: I I'm like, you know what?
9:01
SPEAKER_04: These days, it's like dance and gymnastics are practically the same thing.
9:05
SPEAKER_04: Uh based on what I'm watching at competition, I feel like I'm watching more gymnastics than I'm watching dance.
9:10
SPEAKER_04: So I think they are very, very close to being connected.
9:14
SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes.
9:16
SPEAKER_04: Amazing.
9:16
SPEAKER_04: Well, Emily, we're super excited to have you here.
9:19
SPEAKER_04: Thanks for joining us.
9:20
SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
9:21
SPEAKER_04: All right, our next special guest is one of my oldest friends and a diehard IDA judge who has been here from the very beginning, y'all.
9:30
SPEAKER_04: Of IDA's creation.
9:32
SPEAKER_04: We created and brainstormed it literally in his apartment.
9:35
SPEAKER_04: Wild.
9:36
SPEAKER_04: And he's been on the roster for over 10 years with us as a fantastic adjudicator, but also a wonderful dance educator.
9:44
SPEAKER_04: And he's going to be bringing the judge perspective and dance teacher perspective to this chat.
9:49
SPEAKER_04: But before I introduce him, I need to share all of the episodes that he's been on.
9:54
SPEAKER_04: Season three, episode 107, live QA from Spirit of Dance Awards Nationals.
10:00
SPEAKER_04: Ooh, that was such a fun one.
10:01
SPEAKER_04: Leslie was there, he was there, we had some special guests, it was a blast.
10:05
SPEAKER_04: Season three, episode 68, Prop Potential.
10:08
SPEAKER_04: I loved that one.
10:10
SPEAKER_04: Season two, episode 42, age appropriateness at competition.
10:13
SPEAKER_04: Y'all better go listen.
10:14
SPEAKER_04: It's a good one.
10:15
SPEAKER_04: And all the way back in season one, episode eight, boys in Dance, plus a few fun QA's with me on Platinum Premium.
10:22
SPEAKER_04: I'm so thrilled to welcome back the one, the only Rob Gibbs to the podcast.
10:27
SPEAKER_04: Welcome, Rob.
10:28
SPEAKER_01: Hi, everybody.
10:29
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me back.
10:31
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
10:32
SPEAKER_04: I'm grateful that you wanted to join us on this chat.
10:34
SPEAKER_04: I can't wait to hear what you have to share.
10:36
SPEAKER_02: Of course.
10:36
SPEAKER_02: I'm excited to open it up and talk through everything.
10:40
SPEAKER_06: My favorite part of when we choose guests, specifically like IDA judge guests, we have the judges sometimes pitch themselves.
10:47
SPEAKER_06: Like, if you want to be on it, tell us why you think you'd be a good judge.
10:50
SPEAKER_06: And then we have like a list of people to choose from.
10:52
SPEAKER_06: And Rob said, I think I have some positive insights.
10:55
SPEAKER_06: And I was like, great, we need positive insights.
10:57
SPEAKER_06: Let's let's go with Rob.
10:59
SPEAKER_06: Let's do it.
11:01
SPEAKER_05: Amazing.
11:02
SPEAKER_05: Well, Rob.
11:03
SPEAKER_02: I don't let it down.
11:05
SPEAKER_04: Never.
11:05
SPEAKER_04: Oh my gosh.
11:06
SPEAKER_04: Rob, uh, so happy to have you back.
11:08
SPEAKER_04: It's been a minute since you've been on the podcast.
11:11
SPEAKER_04: So I'm so happy you're here.
11:12
SPEAKER_04: And if you could share and remind our listeners more about you.
11:16
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
11:16
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
11:17
SPEAKER_02: Hi, everybody out there.
11:18
SPEAKER_02: My name is Rob Gibbs.
11:20
SPEAKER_02: I currently live in Worcester, Massachusetts.
11:22
SPEAKER_02: I am a performing arts teacher, adjudicator throughout the whole country, a former performer, and probably will never let it die if anyone wants to pay me to perform again.
11:33
SPEAKER_02: I grew up in Arkansas.
11:35
SPEAKER_02: I started actually the reverse of what most people did and started with classical piano and then classical voice, and then made my way into the dance world.
11:43
SPEAKER_02: I danced with a competitive studio in Memphis, Tennessee.
11:46
SPEAKER_02: And then I moved to New York in 2007, attended the American Musical and Dramatic Academy of New York, graduated, and then started performing around the country and in Canada, which is where I met Courtney Ortiz and doing a Christmas show in Atlantic City, which was the highlight of everybody's year.
12:04
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
12:05
SPEAKER_02: And kind of stepped away from it.
12:07
SPEAKER_02: I did a lot of fashion merchandising in Manhattan and some home office businesses in Columbus, Ohio, and teach.
12:15
SPEAKER_02: And I just teach and teach and teach.
12:17
SPEAKER_02: And I currently teach at a performing arts conservatory here in Worcester, Massachusetts, which I'm uh very in love with.
12:22
SPEAKER_02: I get to teach dance and uh voice and piano and drama and um creative movement and creative drama to some very, very young students, and I have adult uh classes as well.
12:35
SPEAKER_02: So it runs the full gamut of ages, levels, but all I'm there to do is just to inspire them.
12:41
SPEAKER_02: My, you know, my my main tags as a teacher, but I really just want to be able to inspire so many of them because some of them come in w being their first ever drama class or being their first ever primary tap class.
12:55
SPEAKER_02: Um, and then I have others that have been dancing for years and on competitive teams.
12:59
SPEAKER_02: So I'm really just trying to, like I said, just trying to let them find their way inside of the performing arts industry, which is what I was very lucky to be able to do from such a young age.
13:10
SPEAKER_04: Oh, I love that.
13:12
SPEAKER_04: Amazing.
13:13
SPEAKER_04: And uh during the season you are judging like crazy and you are out every single weekend as well.
13:20
SPEAKER_02: So full-time dance competition judge.
13:22
SPEAKER_02: Always, always.
13:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
13:24
SPEAKER_02: I I always say after the season's over that maybe I need to take a step back and then it comes time for bookings, and I just I miss it when it's not around.
13:32
SPEAKER_02: And I love being able to go and sit at a table and hopefully give comments and critiques and ideas to choreographers and studio directors and students inside of their critiques that I remember hearing when I was a day a young dancer listening to my critiques at that time on cassette tapes of people that cared and people that wanted to be in those chairs and wanted to inspire us.
13:59
SPEAKER_02: So at the end of a weekend on like a Sunday night at nine o'clock when you're exhausted, I just remind myself that little Rob wanted good critiques back then as well.
14:07
SPEAKER_02: So I'm gonna I'm gonna keep giving them now.
14:11
SPEAKER_04: Oh, that's so wonderful.
14:13
SPEAKER_04: I love it.
14:13
SPEAKER_04: Well, thank you for everything you do for our dance world as well and being on the IDA roster for so long and excited to have you.
14:20
SPEAKER_04: So let's jump into winning versus losing 2.0.
14:25
SPEAKER_02: Let's do it.
14:26
SPEAKER_06: 2.0.
14:27
SPEAKER_06: Well, listeners, we we knew we had to bring this conversation back because it was a popular one last time.
14:32
SPEAKER_06: It's been a while.
14:33
SPEAKER_06: Things have changed, the dance world has changed because it always does.
14:36
SPEAKER_06: And I feel like it's always really worthwhile to have just a variety of perspectives on something as nuanced as winning and losing.
14:43
SPEAKER_06: And, you know, I it feels like it's a black and white thing.
14:46
SPEAKER_06: It's winning or losing, it's one or the other.
14:48
SPEAKER_06: But I think it's deeper than that.
14:50
SPEAKER_06: And so to hear from some more people, I think it's going to be really helpful for new listeners, old listeners, teachers, everybody.
14:56
SPEAKER_06: So I want to start at a different place than we started last time because I think that will make the conversation go differently.
15:02
SPEAKER_06: So I want to start with, and you guys can answer this, uh, whoever wants to start off.
15:08
SPEAKER_06: Do you think the emphasis on winning that we place in the competitive industry, of really anything, but dance specifically, can create an unrealistic expectation for kids, not even just dancers, but for whoever you are out there.
15:21
SPEAKER_06: If we are placing so much emphasis on winning and we have to train to win, we have to train to get first place.
15:26
SPEAKER_06: What does that mean for their expectations of the rest of life?
15:30
SPEAKER_02: I'll jump in and go first.
15:31
SPEAKER_02: Do I think that that emphasis is unrealistic?
15:35
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
15:36
SPEAKER_02: I try to teach and tell my students that are in the competitive world that it's only based around that one performance.
15:45
SPEAKER_02: And we've said, and we've said it on the podcast, and I've said it to hundreds of people, you know, it's that person or those three judges, or however many are on the panel at the time.
15:54
SPEAKER_02: It's their opinion at that moment in that timestamp.
15:58
SPEAKER_02: What I what I want my students and what I want all students to be able to do is to be able to feel good about whatever their performance was that day at that time, right?
16:10
SPEAKER_02: It's some people are dancing at 7.03 in the morning, some people are dancing at 11.59 at night.
16:16
SPEAKER_02: And it you're gonna dance differently throughout the whole time.
16:18
SPEAKER_02: And I think that the expectation of them winning or losing should be great.
16:24
SPEAKER_02: I did a great job.
16:25
SPEAKER_02: And on this day, I compared really well to everybody else.
16:28
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
16:29
SPEAKER_02: But did you perform your piece to the best of your ability?
16:32
SPEAKER_02: Did you were you adding your corrections from your teachers or you know, your cleaning teachers at the studio?
16:37
SPEAKER_02: Because a lot of times now people have outside choreographers that are coming in and they're they're working with teachers in their own studio on choreography that's not that teachers.
16:48
SPEAKER_02: So you're hoping to be able to put out a story or a performance or you know, a production number that is getting some sort of thought across.
16:58
SPEAKER_02: And if you, I always tell my kids if they can lay their heads down on their pillows at night and feel good about the performances that they did that day, then that's what you should shoot for.
17:08
SPEAKER_02: Then you you had a successful day at a dance competition or even a performance.
17:13
SPEAKER_02: And that's what you should be worried about.
17:15
SPEAKER_02: But I I I do, I think I just think it's so unrealistic to think like you're gonna win every competition because I've had students in the past that have won every competition, and then when they don't, they're like, they're baffled by it, right?
17:28
SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, well, okay, you didn't win today, and you're still gonna go next week to the next competition.
17:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and you're gonna, you're probably gonna try even harder.
17:37
SPEAKER_02: But I wish that it wasn't an order to take first place.
17:41
SPEAKER_02: I wish that you were trying harder because you want to be able to uh, you know, hold your hold your vertical alignment better in this pirouette, or I want you to be able to portray this story a little bit stronger rather than thinking of I need the double platinum, aluminum, whatever they are now, right?
17:59
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, Emily, I'm curious to hear your thoughts.
18:02
SPEAKER_03: I so it is definitely, of course, unrealistic.
18:06
SPEAKER_03: I feel like it can kind of be a little bit dangerous because something I talk to all my kids about a lot is like always focusing on what's within your control.
18:17
SPEAKER_03: And if everyone becomes so outcome focused, there's so much of that that's just outside of their control.
18:24
SPEAKER_03: And so stress-wise, stress levels are going to be much, much higher when you're thinking about things that are outside of your control, which obviously has a negative impact on your actual performance.
18:37
SPEAKER_03: Whereas like focusing on your specific performance and like was the pirouette clean and all of those types of things, those are in your control.
18:45
SPEAKER_03: And then that's going to lead to a better performance.
18:48
SPEAKER_03: And you know, like assuming all of the outside factors fall into place too, then yes, you're setting yourself up for the possibility of winning, but that shouldn't be the main focus or the main goal.
19:02
SPEAKER_03: And I think, I don't know, I think the outcome versus the performance is so huge.
19:07
SPEAKER_03: And it can also become, it can affect people's motivation and how willing they are to step out of their comfort zone too, because if they're trying so hard to be perfect to get a certain score, then a lot of times that can result in like holding back and not trying new things, which is only hindering progress.
19:30
SPEAKER_03: So it's kind of like, do you want to be perfect or do you want to get better and make progress?
19:36
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
19:37
SPEAKER_06: I mean, that's a point like a part of the conversation that I think we don't talk about enough is that you know, if you are just striving for the perfection, well, maybe there's something past that.
19:48
SPEAKER_06: You just don't know.
19:49
SPEAKER_06: You don't know if if the double pirouette is perfect and you're all that's all you're trying to do every time.
19:54
SPEAKER_06: Well, where's the triple pirouette?
19:56
SPEAKER_06: Is that ever gonna happen if you don't try and then fail and then try and then fail and then try again?
20:00
SPEAKER_06: Right.
20:01
SPEAKER_04: Because we're gonna we're dancers are too afraid of, could get too afraid of what it feels like to not succeed, even in something as simple as a skill that we're shooting for.
20:13
SPEAKER_04: Maybe some things come naturally to other people and they wanna just sit comfortably right there because that works for them and that's the safe way.
20:21
SPEAKER_04: But uh, for a lot of dancers, it's gonna be not as not as easy of a journey for them to get to those uh progress points in their training.
20:30
SPEAKER_04: And uh if they're dancing down a level and winning all the time in that level, they're gonna just stay, oh, I'm happy here.
20:38
SPEAKER_04: I'm in first place.
20:39
SPEAKER_04: Why why would I need to bump up a level and do harder choreo or let's just play it safe over here?
20:44
SPEAKER_04: And you know, it's such a even just talking about that and even like choreography, it's such a fine line because we say all the time, like, don't show us what you can't do, you know, like as judges.
20:55
SPEAKER_04: We're like, we just want to see what you're working on, what you're doing well.
20:58
SPEAKER_04: But at the same time, there there has to be a point.
21:01
SPEAKER_04: And I think that's why it's important for this to for parents and dancers to trust their studio to know those progress points in a training for the teacher to be able to say, Listen, we got to step it up a notch now.
21:13
SPEAKER_04: We gotta take some risks this year.
21:15
SPEAKER_04: We're gonna push you this year and know when to stay in a safe place and present a safe solo versus knowing when to push it to the next level to set to be able to achieve, you know, different ways of failure in a in a sense, you know, it might it might be a harder solo for you this year, but look at the these goals that we've set and look at the progress that we're gonna made.
21:37
SPEAKER_04: Instead, you're just gonna stay stagnant in your training if we play it safe 24 7.
21:41
SPEAKER_03: Right.
21:42
SPEAKER_03: And I think also like another thing is always keeping in mind like what's that dancer's end goal with dance?
21:49
SPEAKER_03: Like, how far do they want to go with their dance career?
21:52
SPEAKER_03: And you know, if if the goal ends at that one competition, then okay.
21:58
SPEAKER_03: But I think a lot of times, you know, people.
22:00
SPEAKER_03: Or thinking even you know further past that by years and whatever it is that they want to do, it's like, are you doing yourself a disservice by not pushing?
22:12
SPEAKER_03: And long term, that's gonna affect you more than just that one competition.
22:16
SPEAKER_04: Well, I mean, I think that these levels and things are giving and sad about it.
22:21
SPEAKER_04: The podcast people have heard me talk about this forever.
22:25
SPEAKER_04: I continue to bring it up, but I do think that the levels are also part of creating unrealistic expectations in competition because there that means there's more winners.
22:38
SPEAKER_04: And do we need more winners?
22:40
SPEAKER_04: I don't know if we need more winners.
22:42
SPEAKER_04: I think that there should only be a few winners, not a ton of winners.
22:47
SPEAKER_04: Like there are so many people walking out with that first place trophy and they don't even know what it means, and the teachers don't even know what it means, and the parents don't either.
22:55
SPEAKER_04: They're posting my kid won first place, and everyone thinks that means a certain thing, but it's first place in your category of age eight intermediate jazz dance.
23:04
SPEAKER_04: And you're like, I was up against two other people, but I got first place when it was really a competition of 150 dancers, and you didn't even place in the top 10 overall.
23:13
SPEAKER_04: So it's like, I think there it the even just the way our industry is uh utilizing the language of winning, I think is not realistic, unfortunately.
23:24
SPEAKER_04: I think we're abusing that a little too much in the competitive.
23:28
SPEAKER_02: It's unrealistic because it's the it's their business standard.
23:30
SPEAKER_02: It's how they're trying to bring in more money and continue to have more people sign up because they think, you know, when they walk away from it or they see shared social media posts that there's all of these people, right?
23:44
SPEAKER_02: That are that are taking these trophies home or or whatever it is that their license plates or you know, traffic signs or whatever it is that they're handing out.
23:52
SPEAKER_02: Like now they're seeing how many there are, which is just a selling point for them to be able to bring more lucrative business in.
24:00
SPEAKER_02: And it is lucrative, of course, but then there's people like us that are over here saying, please don't do that.
24:07
unknown: Yeah.
24:07
SPEAKER_02: Please don't, please don't set these children up for failure in the real world because they think that they're they're doing so well.
24:14
SPEAKER_02: And while I again I hope that they're they're proud of their performances, but then they're, you know, it's unrealistic.
24:21
SPEAKER_06: Well, because what my fear for for the next generation is, but but then I also wonder, and I will go to what I wonder in a second, I fear that they all are going to say, My first place, I am so great.
24:33
SPEAKER_06: I'm first place, I'm clearly very good.
24:35
SPEAKER_06: I'm clearly very good.
24:36
SPEAKER_06: So I should be able to get into this college, I should be able to book this job, and then they don't.
24:41
SPEAKER_06: And then what happens to your self-esteem?
24:42
SPEAKER_06: Then what happens to your trajectory of your life when you realize, oh my God, maybe I'm not as good as I thought I was?
24:48
SPEAKER_06: They all told me I was good.
24:49
SPEAKER_06: But then my my other fear is that everybody up there, too, on the higher end of things at colleges and whatever, they just want your money too.
24:57
SPEAKER_06: They just want the next, they want to take your money to put you in the BFA program and they're gonna take anybody.
25:03
SPEAKER_06: And then the industry is saturated with people who are possibly also not actually as good as everybody else has said they are.
25:10
SPEAKER_06: And then that's when you have the cattle call of people and the the horrible dejection of hundreds and hundreds of people that are in New York City not booking anything for years because somebody has given them a degree, somebody gave them a platinum trophy, somebody gave them a solo they didn't need with skills they didn't need and awarded them for that.
25:30
SPEAKER_06: And then you have a bunch of 20-somethings who have anxiety and depression and whatever and are broke because they can't get a job in the field that they're trained in.
25:38
SPEAKER_06: Because somebody way on down the line when they were 12 said, here's the first place trophy, the undeserved first place trophy.
25:45
SPEAKER_06: And like that is like the long-term fear that I have for all of this that started 20 years ago with levels.
25:57
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26:00
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26:09
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26:13
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26:20
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27:00
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27:05
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27:18
SPEAKER_04: No, truly, I I I really do feel like that that is where our industry took a turn in the wrong direction because I think that it's so saturated now that you can you can find that first place wherever you want.
27:32
SPEAKER_04: It it's almost like a pay-to-play at this point, where if you know, oh, this is a newer competition, there's not going to be as much uh higher caliber talent there.
27:40
SPEAKER_04: There's also levels, it's only a one-day competition.
27:43
SPEAKER_04: If all you care about is saying that you were won first place one way or another, you can probably make that happen if you put yourself in the right category and attend the right event.
27:53
SPEAKER_04: And back when we were growing up and back in the early days of competition, it was less saturated, there weren't levels, and it was more of a ranking system.
28:02
SPEAKER_04: And I'm curious actually to hear, um, because I'm not as familiar with the gymnastics world.
28:07
SPEAKER_04: And Emily, I know you work with gymnasts.
28:09
SPEAKER_04: If you can share, like, is that same issue where we're talking about levels?
28:13
SPEAKER_04: I know there's probably levels in gymnastics, but like, is it as abused as much as it is in the competitive dance world?
28:20
SPEAKER_04: And do you see the same thing happening over there in gymnastics?
28:25
SPEAKER_03: Uh no, I don't think so.
28:26
SPEAKER_03: There are levels, and you know, for your, I guess the the normal like USAG kind of standard things, if you go levels, you know, up till 10, and then people can go elite.
28:37
SPEAKER_03: And it's really about like there's certain skills, there's a code of points.
28:42
SPEAKER_03: So you have to have certain skills to put a routine together that's going to be a level nine routine or certain things like that.
28:50
SPEAKER_03: And that's actually like the biggest difference.
28:54
SPEAKER_03: And I always talk about this with people between gymnastics and dance when it comes to competing.
28:59
SPEAKER_03: Gymnastics is so much more black and white in a sense of like, you know, here's the routine, this is where your deductions came from.
29:09
SPEAKER_03: That deduction is worth this much.
29:11
SPEAKER_03: Like you know exactly what's happening.
29:13
SPEAKER_03: And it's not, I mean, to it to an extent, there's you know, subjectivity to it, but it's not like dance, right?
29:20
SPEAKER_03: It's like dance is so subjective, whereas gymnastics is like, here's all the numbers, and it's very, it's very easy to kind of see things where I think that makes it harder for dancers too, when like that subjectivity comes into play.
29:34
SPEAKER_03: And you know, I can see that being tied to the levels as well.
29:39
SPEAKER_03: Whereas gymnastics, it's like, okay, level eight, here's your skills that you need or your upgrades you need to get for level eight.
29:46
SPEAKER_03: This is the routine we're gonna throw together.
29:48
SPEAKER_03: Go compete that this season, you know, and try to make it as clean as possible.
29:52
SPEAKER_03: And then if you do well, we'll see if you get your upgrades for level nine the next season and that sort of thing.
29:59
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, interesting.
30:00
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's it.
30:02
SPEAKER_04: I know it's really like and I like hearing that because I know that there are people listening that probably have kids that do a little bit of both, or maybe the kids are deciding which way they want to go.
30:13
SPEAKER_04: And even Leslie, when you were bringing up like the whole BFA college aspect of it, and then I'm sitting here comparing it to gymnastics.
30:20
SPEAKER_04: Gymnastics is more of a sport, which we you would get a scholarship to go to college for based on the level of how you compete, which are versus that's not happening with dance.
30:31
SPEAKER_04: You can still get scholarships to go to dance, uh, to get a BFA at a at a school, but it's also there's you're actually getting a degree in dance uh if you're attending a dance.
30:42
SPEAKER_04: There's dance team, obviously.
30:43
SPEAKER_04: That's you know more, I feel like comparable to gymnastics route and getting a degree in something else.
30:49
SPEAKER_04: But I think it's e it's different too, because at the end of the day, it it is all a business.
30:54
SPEAKER_04: It is all everything.
30:55
SPEAKER_04: The competition, the school, the studio, the everything, it's all a business.
30:59
SPEAKER_04: And winning makes people happy and that keeps the business flowing.
31:03
SPEAKER_04: Oh, it does.
31:05
SPEAKER_04: It does.
31:06
SPEAKER_06: Um what?
31:07
SPEAKER_06: So you're Emily, you're you're a coach, like you're a mindset coach.
31:11
SPEAKER_06: So you have an influence on people who come in and pay for your service and have sought you out.
31:16
SPEAKER_06: Rob, you have an influence as a teacher, as somebody who's always in these students' lives.
31:20
SPEAKER_06: And I'm curious, in from your perspectives, how how responsible do you feel in shaping a dancer's perspective on winning and losing?
31:29
SPEAKER_06: And how do you do that to like to the best of your ability?
31:32
SPEAKER_06: And like, do you feel successful?
31:34
SPEAKER_06: Like, I don't know.
31:35
SPEAKER_06: I feel like it's such a big responsibility to shape the young minds and and you guys are in the trenches.
31:40
SPEAKER_06: So I just am curious to hear about your experience doing that.
31:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I feel insanely responsible, so much so that I've left places of business because those establishments didn't coincide, they didn't agree with what I was trying or what I think a studio, a dance studio, a conservatory should be instilling in their in their performers.
32:03
SPEAKER_02: So I think myself, me as you know, Rob Gibbs Inc.
32:08
SPEAKER_02: or LLC, I don't, I take all of that responsibility because not only am I teaching something that you know has do this properly, here's your vertical alignment, here, you know, this is where your arm goes in this a Palmon position in a ballet class.
32:24
SPEAKER_02: Like those are those are the cut and dry, like this is what it is if you're studying this style.
32:30
SPEAKER_02: But then at the end of it, like I still want you to have confidence in yourself.
32:36
SPEAKER_02: And I and that's when so many other places, so many businesses are saying, you know, I want trophies, I want, I want confetti cannons at the end of the awards ceremony for this dance.
32:49
SPEAKER_02: And I and I don't.
32:51
SPEAKER_02: I don't want that.
32:52
SPEAKER_02: You know, I have my resume.
32:54
SPEAKER_02: I performed, I competed when I was younger, I went to college, I I have my resume.
33:00
SPEAKER_02: I don't need accolades of winning top contemporary small group at you know this dance competition down the down the block in Worcester, Massachusetts.
33:10
SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't need that.
33:12
SPEAKER_02: I want for my children, I want for my students to feel good about what they're doing.
33:17
SPEAKER_02: And and therefore that's why I've left places that I've been that I've taught before, because they do, they want those other things.
33:24
SPEAKER_02: And I and I think that's unhealthy.
33:26
SPEAKER_02: And I don't think that that's where based around a performance art.
33:31
SPEAKER_02: Why?
33:32
SPEAKER_02: Why do you need that then?
33:34
SPEAKER_02: And Leslie already said, because it's a business.
33:36
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
33:37
SPEAKER_02: So I'm I'm and we profit from that business.
33:39
SPEAKER_06: Listen, we're all part of that business.
33:41
SPEAKER_06: And that's part of why we do this, is to like bring the humanity back to this business.
33:46
SPEAKER_06: Because when you look around the country, it's like, well, you see the logo and you see the social media and the confetti cannons.
33:50
SPEAKER_06: And here's here are some human people who are part of that business who are like all of us are trying to do it the right way, the way we see fit, you know.
33:58
SPEAKER_06: And so I think you it people can people on the outside maybe can get a little jaded sometimes, and oh, well, this business is about that.
34:05
SPEAKER_06: It's like, no, like maybe, maybe on the front side it feels like that, but like there are real humans trying to do good work for your children, you know.
34:13
SPEAKER_06: Hello, here we are.
34:15
SPEAKER_04: And even like on the on the teacher's end and the choreographer's end, like I'm sitting here thinking about like how I'm a part of this business and I teach on dance conventions and I judge at dance competitions, but also I go and guest choreograph at these studios who expect a win out of it.
34:32
SPEAKER_04: And if and at the same time, like I want to present something that I feel like is a step in the right direction and is guiding them in the right place, but I don't always, I don't always like having that emphasis of this better be an award-winning dance because I'm paying you all this money to do this type of thing.
34:49
SPEAKER_04: I don't need the win.
34:50
SPEAKER_04: I want to the dancers to grow in a different way.
34:53
SPEAKER_04: I want them to experience something new.
34:54
SPEAKER_04: I want them to try out a new style that they've never done before, don't do often.
34:59
SPEAKER_04: And then on the flip side, you know, you're looking for that success on the teachers and choreographers, and like, oh, I hope my dance does well at competition, right?
35:07
SPEAKER_04: It's like the same thing.
35:08
SPEAKER_04: But for me, I ought I actually go back to those special awards that everyone knocks and thinks that they're not important.
35:14
SPEAKER_04: I like, or a judge critique.
35:16
SPEAKER_04: Like if I get a compliment on the choreography, or I love this choice, or that was so clever, or something like that, that's the win for me.
35:24
SPEAKER_04: I don't need the first place.
35:25
SPEAKER_04: I'm like, oh my God, someone noticed that little detail that I added into this dance.
35:29
SPEAKER_04: You know, like something like that fuels me for my win.
35:33
SPEAKER_04: And I think it's important for dancers to stop looking at the score for the win and maybe look at those little nuggets that might be in your special award or might be in your judge critique where you get that compliment that just changes your life or just makes you smile.
35:47
SPEAKER_04: Like that's a win.
35:48
SPEAKER_04: And we need to see that more often.
35:50
SPEAKER_03: I think kind of going back to what I was saying earlier with like the outcome versus the performance goals that they're setting for themselves.
35:58
SPEAKER_03: When I when I first start working with people, we we do some pretty tedious goal setting, for lack of better words.
36:05
SPEAKER_03: And it gets pretty nitty-gritty, but the purpose is, you know, to make their lives easier when it comes to actually achieving those goals because you break them down in such a small way that it's like much easier to progress through things.
36:18
SPEAKER_03: And, you know, then come the mental skills and how are we going to implement this in rehearsals and before you go on stage so that you can have the best performance possible.
36:26
SPEAKER_03: But then when it comes to like competition season, every single competition that people go to, I always sit down with them and we're breaking down their goals for that particular weekend for each piece that they're doing.
36:39
SPEAKER_03: So if they have like two solos that they're doing, it's like, okay, pick three performance goals for this solo and three performance goals for that solo.
36:47
SPEAKER_03: Let's break those down so you know exactly how to achieve those goals.
36:50
SPEAKER_03: And I always tell them, I'm like, think about it like this.
36:54
SPEAKER_03: Like, as long as I do this, this, and this, I'll be happy with that performance.
36:59
SPEAKER_03: And that's kind of how you want to go into the competition focused and like thinking about it as opposed to I want to win first place.
37:06
SPEAKER_03: I don't even let them set set goals like that.
37:09
SPEAKER_03: I'm like, you can totally want to win.
37:10
SPEAKER_03: I want you to want to win because that just means you're motivated, right?
37:13
SPEAKER_03: And you're competitive and that's good.
37:16
SPEAKER_03: But we're not focusing on that because it's not in your control.
37:19
SPEAKER_03: And so I feel like that's, you know, it it all ties back to that.
37:24
SPEAKER_03: But as far as like the studios or even, you know, gyms with gymnastics, and there is such that, you know, such a big emphasis on that the outcome and the winning.
37:35
SPEAKER_03: So it's like they can get focused on like, yes, here's my performance goals, but then they go back into their studio or their gym and they're hearing it from, you know, their teachers or the directors or whoever.
37:46
SPEAKER_03: And it's like this mental battle in their heads.
37:49
SPEAKER_03: And so for me, being in like the kind of position that I'm in as like that third party person that's not within their studio, I think it's good for them to have, you know, that outside space to come and actually process through all of that than being in it all of the time and in the midst of that environment where everyone's just like, first place, first place, first place.
38:13
SPEAKER_03: You know, it it kind of makes me sad to say this, but there's like, there's so much went power when it comes to just like, you did awesome.
38:22
SPEAKER_03: I'm so proud of you.
38:23
SPEAKER_03: And like them hearing that and feeling really good about their performance.
38:28
SPEAKER_03: And I always try to be, you know, even if something went wrong, that's okay.
38:32
SPEAKER_03: Now you just know how to make it better.
38:34
SPEAKER_03: So it's not a bad thing.
38:35
SPEAKER_03: Now it's like, okay, I made a mistake, cool.
38:37
SPEAKER_03: How do you fix it?
38:38
SPEAKER_03: Next performance is gonna be better.
38:40
SPEAKER_03: And so it's not a bad thing to make a mistake, but at the studio, they may get, you know, kind of, I don't want to say picked on, but like, you know, it'll get picked apart if there's a mistake made versus, you know, coming with that different perspective where it's like, no, you did really, really well.
38:55
SPEAKER_03: One mistake is one mistake, we'll make it better next time, but I'm proud of you for how you did and giving them that reminder.
39:02
SPEAKER_03: I feel like from my perspective is like such a huge piece of things too, for that belief in themselves.
39:09
SPEAKER_06: Who are you?
39:10
SPEAKER_06: So I'm curious, like, who's coming to you?
39:12
SPEAKER_06: What's the type of dancer or gymnast that's coming to you?
39:15
SPEAKER_06: And how are they finding out about you?
39:17
SPEAKER_06: I mean, I'm sure there's other other businesses, small business consultancies around the country that does this because I think it is obviously becoming more important to our industry.
39:26
SPEAKER_06: Like I feel like this was very much, like you said earlier, like I you focused on athlete, all athletes.
39:31
SPEAKER_06: I think athletes have had this for a long time, but artists who are also athletes, or it's kind of more niche.
39:37
SPEAKER_06: So who who comes to you?
39:38
SPEAKER_06: How do you advertise?
39:39
SPEAKER_06: Where are people finding out about your kind of services?
39:41
SPEAKER_03: So I actually kind of broke into the gymnastics world first, which I thought was so strange since I was the dancer.
39:48
SPEAKER_03: But that was actually very word of mouth.
39:50
SPEAKER_03: It's very similar to the the dance world where it's like gymnastics world, it's its small little bubble, everyone knows everyone.
39:57
SPEAKER_03: And so word spreads.
39:59
SPEAKER_03: And it's one of those things where it's like if you see somebody who's was struggling on something or had a mental block with something, and all of a sudden they overcame that or they're performing really well under pressure and like things like that.
40:11
SPEAKER_03: People started asking questions, like, well, what are you doing?
40:13
SPEAKER_03: Like, what changed?
40:15
SPEAKER_03: And so with the gymnastics side of things, that's kind of how that started growing.
40:19
SPEAKER_03: And there's some pretty big local gyms around my area that especially it's like, you know, everyone's on different teams within the gym, but then it just kind of grows.
40:30
SPEAKER_03: So word of mouth was huge.
40:32
SPEAKER_03: But then more recently, Instagram has been like a huge thing, which I don't think I'm all that great at Instagram.
40:41
SPEAKER_03: I don't really understand social media, but I try.
40:43
SPEAKER_03: And that has been like a big thing where now I've actually I'm starting to like kind of break into a couple of other countries, which is really cool because it's like the more it gets talked about and the more it gets normalized, then the more people seek it out.
40:59
SPEAKER_03: And it is one of those things where it's like you have this extra little, you know, superpower in your back pocket where you know, if someone else is doing it and you're like really competitive, you're like, well, if you're doing it, like I want to do it, like I want to have that edge over, you know, so and so.
41:14
SPEAKER_03: So word of mouth and social media, ironically, has actually been like the biggest growth for all of my stuff.
41:21
SPEAKER_03: But I really focus in on like the the gymnasts and the dancers who are very serious about what they do.
41:28
SPEAKER_03: Because, in my opinion, it's with any kind of coaching, you can teach all the things, but unless they put the work in and unless they, you know, do the homework and practice the skills, they're not gonna see the results.
41:41
SPEAKER_03: And so, from what I've noticed, it's the ones who are very serious about what they do and have those really big goals that are willing to put that work in.
41:51
SPEAKER_03: And so I usually cap myself at like 10 year olds are like the absolute youngest.
41:58
SPEAKER_03: I 12 is really like a sweet spot age for starting something like this, in my opinion, because it's very easy to say, hey, here's what we're gonna do, go practice this, and they just like take it and run with it.
42:10
SPEAKER_03: When we start getting older, we start, you know, I don't know, like that sounds kind of weird, or we ask quite ask questions, but you know, once once they do start, you know, trying things, they see the difference, then they're you know, they buy in and they're like, Oh, okay, this this works, it's pretty cool.
42:27
SPEAKER_03: So that's great.
42:29
SPEAKER_04: I feel like that studios need to like have these conversations and like bring in these specialists to or even like do a Zoom chat and maybe that's a class for the season, like one's a season before competition.
42:41
SPEAKER_04: Like, I mean, that's why we're here doing this podcast.
42:43
SPEAKER_04: But also I think that like studios need to put this mindset coaching uh philosophy into the the heads and the knowledge of the children.
42:51
SPEAKER_04: And I think that is a way that that studios and teachers can uh start encouraging and supporting uh this healthy outlook of winning versus losing because I do uh feel that it's not talked about enough and it's just always talked about the win that we've been kind of mentioning a lot.
43:10
SPEAKER_04: And with that, I also think that there's a lot of value in saying that second place and third place and tenth place is also a really, really good achievement.
43:20
SPEAKER_04: And I think that people need to praise that more and not say, Oh, well, you got 10th, it's not first.
43:26
SPEAKER_04: You know, it's like, oh my god, what?
43:28
SPEAKER_04: Like this is and again, we've said it a million times on the podcast, like those outcomes that we keep reminding that are out of our control.
43:37
SPEAKER_04: We you can't control who shows up, you can't control what the scoring brackets are, you can't control how many people are gonna be in your same category, you can't control if the fierce dancer who's your rival brought a better dance than you.
43:50
SPEAKER_04: Sorry, that's just the cards that were dealt this year, and you're gonna do the best that you can do and see how the cards fall and play out.
43:57
SPEAKER_04: And as long as you are giving it your all, that's All you can do.
44:01
SPEAKER_04: But people get again so wrapped up on the number, so wrapped up on the placement that even third isn't good anymore.
44:08
SPEAKER_02: And and also, you know, in that same that same conversation piece, like I've had I've had students in the past that because of the social media world that we live in, they know what studios are going to the competition that they're going to be attending that that next weekend.
44:23
SPEAKER_02: And I've heard dancers say to me, I just want to beat this person.
44:27
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh my God, what who told you this was okay?
44:31
SPEAKER_01: This is that sounds vindictive.
44:34
SPEAKER_02: Like, why would you want to be able to do that?
44:36
SPEAKER_02: And not that I would ever like promote this, but like then you have like an independent that shows up and they beat everybody.
44:44
SPEAKER_02: And then they're and then still nobody's happy because they might, you know, my dancer might have taken second place over that other studio's like top contender that got third place.
44:54
SPEAKER_02: Well, then my dancer's still not happy because they got second.
44:57
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, but you're you said your goal was that you wanted to beat so-and-so, and you did.
45:03
SPEAKER_02: You're like, well, yeah, but I didn't get first place.
45:06
SPEAKER_02: This independent, like, you know, like Trina showed up and just took everybody by storm.
45:11
SPEAKER_02: Like you achieved your goal that you set for the weekend, even though I didn't like your goal that you set for yourself.
45:19
SPEAKER_06: I talked about it on a recent podcast because we had the Olympics this summer, and you know, Simone Biles was neck on neck and neck with Rebecca, Rebecca from Brazil, can't think of her last name.
45:29
SPEAKER_06: But and they both literally said in interviews multiple times, we love competing against each other.
45:34
SPEAKER_06: Like it's so fun to watch her succeed and like, and then someone was even like, I don't know if I want to compete against her anymore.
45:40
SPEAKER_06: She's too good.
45:40
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah.
45:41
SPEAKER_06: It's it's almost like that.
45:43
SPEAKER_06: I feel like I love to see that kind of competitive spirit, which acknowledges the talent and the work that other people are putting in.
45:51
SPEAKER_06: And you just have to say, Man, they did it.
45:53
SPEAKER_06: They did it, they did it today.
45:55
SPEAKER_06: I didn't do it today.
45:56
SPEAKER_06: Like, great, good for them.
45:57
SPEAKER_06: That's gonna motivate me for next time.
45:59
SPEAKER_06: And or I'm Smoone Biles and I'm gonna say, never mind, I'm done.
46:03
SPEAKER_04: I think it's the motivation aspect that can go like both ways.
46:06
SPEAKER_04: Cause like my thought was while you were saying that, Rob, that there could be people, especially like you said, with social media these days, and how dancers and studios can already know who's gonna show up at a competition.
46:18
SPEAKER_04: They might be like, oh, they're coming.
46:19
SPEAKER_04: Oh, that means that she's coming.
46:21
SPEAKER_04: And there's no way I'm ever gonna beat them.
46:23
SPEAKER_04: So why am I even bothering?
46:24
SPEAKER_04: Why am I even trying?
46:25
SPEAKER_04: Like that's that's already in the mindset of a kid before they've even stepped foot on stage, before they even got to the competition.
46:32
SPEAKER_04: And we can't have that.
46:34
SPEAKER_04: We we I think that that's when it's not gonna you we're not using that as fuel or motivation to encourage you to set the goals and do better.
46:43
SPEAKER_04: They've already shot themselves out.
46:45
SPEAKER_04: They're like, nope, I've gotten stand no chance at all.
46:48
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
46:48
SPEAKER_02: And I can't imagine being a teenager and showing up anywhere, and like that's what is in the back of your mind.
46:54
SPEAKER_02: Thank goodness we have people like Emily who's like helping them reverse that in some way, like as as many problems as as our teenage world has right now, and like the the stress and social pressure already, like to walk into a building and already doubting yourself just sounds like a miserable experience to me.
47:14
SPEAKER_02: And that's that's heartbreaking as an instructor, yeah.
47:18
SPEAKER_02: To like think that one of my students might be having that mindset before they walk into a building.
47:24
SPEAKER_03: I feel like that's the more common way that it goes too, is like if you see a certain person's going and you don't feel up to the same level or whatever, and you're like, oh man, like you're already defeated before you get in there.
47:37
SPEAKER_03: But weirdly enough, like I've also seen it go the other way where you've you have the dancer who, you know, feels like they're at this high level, and then they don't think that there's going to be other dancers there who are at that same level.
47:52
SPEAKER_03: And so then the motivation actually comes down a little bit.
47:56
SPEAKER_03: And so they're and that's kind of those situations where you end up seeing like the higher level dancer gets outperformed by you know who whoever we're deeming the lower level dancer is, and so motivation-wise, it it goes both ways.
48:12
SPEAKER_03: I'm over here, I'm like, just stop looking.
48:14
SPEAKER_03: Like, don't yes, right.
48:15
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, surprise.
48:17
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, like what like what part of that is helping you if you know who's going?
48:23
SPEAKER_03: I don't see it helping either way, but yeah, it it definitely goes both ways, which I think is really interesting.
48:30
SPEAKER_02: I didn't even think of that.
48:31
SPEAKER_02: That's that's wild.
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49:46
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I feel like that I could I could see like I mean, I I feel like we've all heard the stories of like dancers who know they're the best and think or think they're the best and then just kind of just like settle through life and oh I barely have to try because I know I'm gonna win.
50:00
SPEAKER_04: And then there might be that dancer that's like has the goal set that I want to beat that dancer that always wins, and then they bring the fire, and then it's like the success story where the dancer who's great and just phoned in and gets second, and this other dancer like gave a performance of a lifetime and it completely and they set their goal and they did it.
50:18
SPEAKER_04: And like even with that that scenario, which I've seen it, I'm sure I've seen happen, regardless of knowing like who's the you know local dancer that always wins, but like we can tell when it your heart is in it on the judge's side.
50:32
SPEAKER_04: Like that performance and like what you're pouring out to us on stage, you're going to see that in how you place at competition because like we can feel that.
50:42
SPEAKER_04: And I think like we we're going back to like how this isn't gymnastics.
50:45
SPEAKER_04: And I don't think that that heart, um, not saying that like gymnasts don't have that that in their heart, but you know, it is more skill-based, it is more technique-based.
50:54
SPEAKER_04: And in dance, there it's the performant art performance art of it where you need to have that's a part of your score.
51:01
SPEAKER_04: So, like for that to shine through, I think can lead to the that success that we see as judges all the time.
51:08
SPEAKER_03: That's actually really interesting that you say that too, because when I started working with gymnasts, I I mean, I really came in with like I had watched the Olympics and that was about my knowledge of gymnastics, you know?
51:20
SPEAKER_03: And so it was so funny to me because like growing up at at least at my studio, you don't see, you know, in class, at least you're not gonna see people like getting super frustrated and like tears or, you know, like this or that.
51:35
SPEAKER_03: I mean, we would get kicked out of class if we yawned, you know, because it was a respect thing.
51:38
SPEAKER_03: Right.
51:39
SPEAKER_03: And so like that was just that sort of thing was so foreign to me.
51:43
SPEAKER_03: And when I was working or I started working with gymnasts, there is a lot more of that in practice.
51:48
SPEAKER_03: And like, you know, if they get super frustrated and they they need to go step out, or there are tears.
51:53
SPEAKER_03: And like I will also say, like, you know, coaches, there there's a whole lot of things that go in with gymnastics and that side of things.
52:00
SPEAKER_03: But I thought that was really interesting because I don't really hear that with dancers.
52:05
SPEAKER_03: You hear, I mean, maybe someone has some tears like afterwards, like you hold it in, and then it's like afterwards, you feel and so I started thinking about that.
52:14
SPEAKER_03: And, you know, dance, you you're taught from day one, you're performing.
52:20
SPEAKER_03: And I really feel like that performance aspect and like knowing how to, you know, get into a character or you know, show a certain emotion on stage or whatever it is, actually like ties into the ability to like maintain that composure in their classes and their rehearsals, and you know, hope hopefully in competitions too.
52:42
SPEAKER_03: And as compared to gymnastics, where it is the more skill-based objective type of thing, but then the emotion side of it sometimes overtakes things, which it's yeah, it's it's a weird comparison between the two.
52:59
SPEAKER_04: No, totally.
53:00
SPEAKER_04: I completely understand what you're saying, and I think that it is definitely an interesting part of the discussion, but and to hear like what you've noticed and experienced with working with both.
53:10
SPEAKER_04: I can see that.
53:11
SPEAKER_04: So let's we've kind of hinted at this a handful of times, and I feel like we've talked a lot about the win, but the losing aspect of this whole conversation, I feel like I'm curious to hear, or even you can share personal experiences.
53:28
SPEAKER_04: We've heard many times and we've talked about this many times, and maybe we've experienced it ourselves that you don't always have to win to be successful in life.
53:37
SPEAKER_04: And how are these skills that we're putting ourselves into or parents are choosing to put their their kids into in a competitive atmosphere?
53:46
SPEAKER_04: And it can be applied to anything because I think a lot of kids do come some type of competitive sport.
53:51
SPEAKER_04: A sport is a competition in itself, even if you're doing it just for fun, or someone's gonna win at the end of that game, and the same thing applies for dance, and there's so much emphasis on the solo aspect of dance in competition that I think, and we just had our teamwork episode that just launched a few episodes back that we forget about the emphasis of the team.
54:11
SPEAKER_04: But how does failure sculpt you as a human?
54:15
SPEAKER_04: And how do you how have you taken it through life or seen people taking it into your adult life?
54:20
SPEAKER_03: I think so.
54:22
SPEAKER_03: I guess long ago, I feel like growing up, if there was like a fail, I mean, I was a big, big perfectionist growing up, which is why I love talking about that with my kids nowadays.
54:34
SPEAKER_03: But like if there was some kind of like failure or goal was missed or something like that, it was a hard hit, you know, like super upset, frustrated.
54:45
SPEAKER_03: And I feel like the longer you sit in that, you're just wasting time that you could be getting better.
54:51
SPEAKER_03: And I feel like, you know, over the years, it's like obviously everyone's gonna go through rough things, whether it's dance related or not.
54:59
SPEAKER_03: Like even past your dance career, there's always going to be, you know, failures because that's a part of life.
55:04
SPEAKER_03: And I think if you learn how to how to learn from the failure and then continue moving forward, then you know that that failure wasn't a bad thing.
55:17
SPEAKER_03: And so it can kind of change your view of future failures or like mistakes or whatever it is, because then when they come, it's not as much of a like catastrophic, oh my gosh, I can't believe that happened sort of a thing.
55:31
SPEAKER_03: It's kind of like, okay, would have preferred that to not have happened.
55:36
SPEAKER_03: But if it's gonna happen, like here's what I'm gonna take from it, and this is what we're gonna do going forward.
55:41
SPEAKER_03: And it can just make you so much better.
55:44
SPEAKER_03: But I think that's a big learning curve to that takes some time to really like grab a hold of.
55:52
SPEAKER_06: And it feels like it needs to, in order for it to be successful earlier, it has to start being taught to you earlier.
55:58
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
55:58
SPEAKER_06: Because if you get intercepted with that mindset later in life, you know, you've already had like your way of thinking, whatever that was, formulated, and that's how you react constantly.
56:08
SPEAKER_06: And it's like it's a no-brainer to immediately react in a more negative way or a more defeated way.
56:14
SPEAKER_06: And then, you know, people coming to you in their teen years may have to have that brain rewired to to figure out how to move forward in a different way.
56:23
SPEAKER_06: So I think the earlier the better to like understand that perspective is probably key to making it part of your life forever.
56:30
SPEAKER_02: I think, I think, Leslie, when you say like intercepted and taught from the studio, it actually brings back up something that Emily said earlier that like when mistakes are picked apart from a performance, like why is it the student's fault every time?
56:46
SPEAKER_02: Right.
56:47
SPEAKER_02: It could it be that the choreographers, the technique teachers, the studio directors themselves like step back and like I don't even think it needs to be a perspective of like, let me take a hard look at what it is that I'm teaching.
56:59
SPEAKER_02: Be like, well, my methods may not then be working for this student.
57:05
SPEAKER_02: And and I think I I figure that out definitely a lot later in life, which I wish I would have known a little earlier.
57:11
SPEAKER_02: And a lot of it comes from actually from my drama classes of being able how to explain, to perceive, and to be able to like showcase a character or a different choice or you know, uh how to interpret a line.
57:24
SPEAKER_02: Like I had to figure that out myself to be able to explain it differently to students, like maybe a student with a learning disorder, uh, maybe somebody that doesn't, that uh English isn't their first language, right?
57:36
SPEAKER_02: Why is it the kids' fault?
57:38
SPEAKER_02: Right?
57:38
SPEAKER_02: Why, why did they lose?
57:41
SPEAKER_02: Not that, again, that that winning or losing is like the end all be all, but like maybe there's something that we need to do as the instructors.
57:49
SPEAKER_02: Maybe if we're looking at it and I'm thinking, okay, I'm teaching, like these kids are in the studio, let's say six days a week, right?
57:55
SPEAKER_02: Why aren't they winning ever performance?
57:57
SPEAKER_02: All right, well, let's like, let's break it down.
57:59
SPEAKER_02: Let's figure it out.
58:00
SPEAKER_02: Like, are they not being conditioned well?
58:02
SPEAKER_02: Are they not being, are they not taking the right technique classes?
58:06
SPEAKER_02: Like, is it a technique that they're they're excelling at?
58:09
SPEAKER_02: And then they become complacent inside of those technique classes, and I need to bring in a Courtney Ortiz to like whip them into shape with a different uh type of technique, or you know, like throw a ride out every once in a while when they're across the floor so that they know what the heck that is.
58:24
SPEAKER_02: And I love that video that you did.
58:26
SPEAKER_02: That's a personal note.
58:28
SPEAKER_04: The difference between a ride out and a pot of beret.
58:30
SPEAKER_04: Like, let's talk about it.
58:31
SPEAKER_02: And I'll and I'll always do both of them no matter what.
58:35
SPEAKER_02: But talking about, like, I'll actually go back to the question now, but I I just felt like that needed to be something that was like, you're building muscle memory, and maybe it's not the right muscle memory for this dancer or for this performer or for this gymnast, whatever it is.
58:49
SPEAKER_02: Talking about losing and like bringing it into your adult career and livelihood as going forward, that I have, you know, I think I'm finally at the age where I have dancers that I trained when they were younger and they they now have other careers, whether it's in a dance, uh performing arts background or or whatever it may be, right?
59:13
SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm finally at that old man age where like my older students are like coming back and talking about things like that.
59:20
SPEAKER_02: And I think like, God, I hope I really like help them out somewhere along those early years.
59:26
SPEAKER_02: But like, if you don't know what it's like to be told no, you can't, you can't survive in this career as a professional.
59:34
SPEAKER_02: You can't.
59:34
SPEAKER_02: It's just it'll break you down so quickly, right?
59:38
SPEAKER_02: And I and you I see all the time because uh at least the three of us, right?
59:43
SPEAKER_02: But because we're we're inside of that world, we we meet people constantly at these competitions that work backstage at our previous dancers, or they're trying to make it a New Yorker and in LA, but on the weekends they're getting these jobs, and I'm seeing these younger, they're not, you know, they're not still in high school, but they're definitely younger than me.
1:00:02
SPEAKER_02: And it's too hard for them because maybe because they never were told no and they didn't have that failure, or like Leslie said earlier, like, try that triple pirouette, right?
1:00:12
SPEAKER_02: What's going on with it?
1:00:14
SPEAKER_02: Why aren't you getting around for that third revolution?
1:00:17
SPEAKER_02: It's a little different when you're talking about like losing at a competition, but like it's the same background of it all, right?
1:00:23
SPEAKER_02: Why aren't you succeeding at what it is that you're shooting for today?
1:00:26
SPEAKER_06: And some of those answers are also just like they are at a dance competition, outside of your control.
1:00:32
SPEAKER_06: Right.
1:00:33
SPEAKER_06: Sometimes there were too many people that showed up.
1:00:34
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes you maybe had ice cream that day for lunch, and you just didn't have the fuel to like push you around, right?
1:00:41
SPEAKER_02: Because like dipping dots is at the front of every dance competition.
1:00:46
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, can't we get like a salad?
1:00:48
SPEAKER_01: Anyone in their salad vending machines now?
1:00:50
SPEAKER_01: Come on, a movie or something.
1:00:52
SPEAKER_02: We need to fuel these kids, not just sugar them up and get through this Peter Pan production number and hope that they can last until 11 o'clock awards.
1:01:00
SPEAKER_06: Not with the rigging and everything.
1:01:02
SPEAKER_06: Like, please don't rig your Peter Pan at this dance competition.
1:01:04
SPEAKER_06: It's not safe.
1:01:06
SPEAKER_04: I definitely feel like that what you mentioned, Rob, is very true and real.
1:01:10
SPEAKER_04: And I can personally say that I've seen it happen from dancers who I've auditioned alongside in the biz, who were the stars at the studio, who got everything handed to them, who never lost a competition, who never heard the word no before, think they're gonna make it in the biz and cannot handle the rejection.
1:01:30
SPEAKER_04: And it's actually the dancers who were in fifth place, who were in tenth place, who are the ones that because they've dealt with rejection, can handle it and want to pursue a career and will be more successful because the top-tier dancers who can't handle it have already quit.
1:01:48
SPEAKER_04: They're gone doing something else, getting married and done with their dreams of dance, because they just cannot handle the rejection.
1:01:55
SPEAKER_04: And I think that's why it's really important or that's why I'm such a big advocate for like competitive dance.
1:02:00
SPEAKER_04: I love it.
1:02:00
SPEAKER_04: I think it's important for us to learn this because you're gonna you're gonna face rejection regardless if you go into the dance world.
1:02:07
SPEAKER_04: You're gonna face it in all sides of life.
1:02:09
SPEAKER_04: And we talked about this a lot in our our um teamwork episode too.
1:02:13
SPEAKER_04: So it is important for dancers to always experience that and not always get the win.
1:02:18
SPEAKER_04: The win's not always gonna be there.
1:02:20
SPEAKER_04: You have to know how to s to to hear no and face that.
1:02:24
SPEAKER_04: But I want to also touch on what you said, Rob, about how it might not always be the dancer's fault.
1:02:28
SPEAKER_04: And I think that's so brilliant.
1:02:30
SPEAKER_04: I think that we oftentimes talk a lot about we're looking at the dancers, and a lot of parents are listening, a lot of teachers are listening, but we've mentioned it before that like when you become a dan a professional, you also you often don't get constructive criticism anymore.
1:02:43
SPEAKER_04: When you become a teacher and a choreographer and a studio owner, you're you're your own boss.
1:02:47
SPEAKER_04: You don't you aren't really getting a lot of constructive criticism either.
1:02:50
SPEAKER_04: But I think that we all need to approach this world as we're always students, we're always learning, we're always growing.
1:02:56
SPEAKER_04: And we can't always think that we know it all and we are the best.
1:02:59
SPEAKER_04: Like, don't be afraid to ask for some someone's rec advice on something.
1:03:03
SPEAKER_04: Don't be afraid to say, hey, can you watch this dance?
1:03:06
SPEAKER_04: What do you think is missing?
1:03:07
SPEAKER_04: Like, I think that those types of active professionals to seek out advice and to continuing to educate the themselves is missing in our industry and can't, and because they maybe can't take the criticism, they don't want to ask.
1:03:20
SPEAKER_04: So, you know, it's a full circle thing because it could be a training issue.
1:03:25
SPEAKER_04: It could be a choreography issue.
1:03:27
SPEAKER_04: But if you never know and you don't want to hear what the issue is from someone else who maybe has more experience or maybe doesn't, and it's just another set of eyes on it, uh, then you're never gonna learn and grow either.
1:03:38
SPEAKER_04: And that's gonna then hurt your dancers from learning and growing.
1:03:41
SPEAKER_04: So Right.
1:03:42
SPEAKER_02: Or have or like have the confidence in yourself to like look at something, to have a video from a competition and look at it and be like, oh God, why did I do that?
1:03:52
SPEAKER_02: Like that is the weirdest transition I've ever created in my entire life.
1:03:56
SPEAKER_02: And like go back in the next week and change it.
1:03:59
SPEAKER_02: I did that the last couple of years.
1:04:01
SPEAKER_02: Like I a really large jazz group that I had at a studio that I was teaching at.
1:04:05
SPEAKER_02: I will be like, oh my God, this is amazing.
1:04:07
SPEAKER_02: Like this is they're clean, right?
1:04:09
SPEAKER_02: And then you go and you watch the video and you're like, wow, wow, wow, wow.
1:04:13
SPEAKER_02: I have failed you as a cleaning teacher because this ain't it, kids.
1:04:18
SPEAKER_02: Like, like let's like let's keep working on it.
1:04:20
SPEAKER_02: Or you, you know, you see you watch a solo and you're like, oh shoot, not a great visual here.
1:04:26
SPEAKER_02: Like, let's turn it 45 degrees.
1:04:28
SPEAKER_02: I mean, we say that, right, in teachers like luncheons all the time, that you're like, look at it from every angle of the competition of a stage.
1:04:36
SPEAKER_02: Not even a competition, just like of a stage, right?
1:04:38
SPEAKER_02: I teach at a studio in Rhode Island that they just finished um like holiday shows like week.
1:04:42
SPEAKER_02: Those are just as important as going to blah, blah, blah dance competition next year, right?
1:04:47
SPEAKER_02: You're still performing, you're still, you're still showing your skill set, you're still trying to put out the best performance available at at your skill set, at your energy level, at that time of the year for you.
1:04:59
SPEAKER_02: Like put your whole heart into it every stink in time.
1:05:03
SPEAKER_04: Amen.
1:05:04
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
1:05:05
SPEAKER_04: Ooh, I love this.
1:05:06
SPEAKER_04: This is so good, y'all.
1:05:08
SPEAKER_04: I really think that we've hit a lot of the points that we wanted to cover and then some and brought new, fresh perspectives on this important chat about winning versus losing as we head into the competition season, which is officially here, everybody.
1:05:22
SPEAKER_04: So wow, to our wonderful guests, Rob and Emily.
1:05:26
SPEAKER_04: Thank you for sharing all of your knowledge and everything that you've learned in the biz with us.
1:05:31
SPEAKER_04: I hope that this is impactful and inspiring to all of our listeners out there.
1:05:34
SPEAKER_04: Please share it with your dancers, your studios, your teachers, your parents, your siblings, I don't care, everybody.
1:05:40
SPEAKER_04: We all have to listen to this.
1:05:41
SPEAKER_04: This is a general conversation on life, y'all.
1:05:45
SPEAKER_04: Not just about dance comp.
1:05:46
SPEAKER_04: And how we always have our guests lead us out on making the impact is with one final thought on the topic.
1:05:53
SPEAKER_04: So if you want to speak whoever you'd like to speak to out there in podcast land, to share one final thing.
1:06:00
SPEAKER_04: About winning versus losing.
1:06:02
SPEAKER_02: I would love to be able to just like talking just about this one subject matter because we all have so many thoughts and ideas about the way that we think it should be run, is that take a different perspective every once in a while.
1:06:16
SPEAKER_02: Dancers, teachers, studio directors, gymnasts, gym owners, right?
1:06:22
SPEAKER_02: Think about perspective from other ways.
1:06:25
SPEAKER_02: Is this dancer, is this performer able to learn in the way that you're expressing to them?
1:06:32
SPEAKER_02: Take different aspects, take different routes to get maybe to the same end goal, but have compassion around them and teaching them and instilling in them that it is what we're doing as a performance art.
1:06:45
SPEAKER_02: It is subjective, and that really think about are you able to perform at this point of the year, right?
1:06:52
SPEAKER_02: In January, your performance is going to look so different, hopefully, than it does in May, or if you go to nationals in June or July, and step back and think about your progression throughout the year and be proud of yourself.
1:07:04
SPEAKER_02: And I hope that you think through what you've brought to our industry and that it's it's making a difference.
1:07:11
SPEAKER_02: You might have just worn someone's favorite color in your uh primary mini junior, whatever, like jazz solo that like made someone's day, that you're making an impact, no matter what it is, right, on someone else's life.
1:07:27
SPEAKER_02: Whether you're a teacher or a dancer or a gymnast or a life coach or you are a podcast host, it's it's making an impact somewhere, and I hope that it's for the positive.
1:07:38
SPEAKER_03: I think I would just say, like, really truly don't be afraid to take risks because without taking risks, there is not going to be progress, and don't be afraid to make mistakes because you know what your goal is, and your personal goals at the end of the day are gonna be like top priority and the most important things.
1:08:00
SPEAKER_03: So, you know, definitely make sure that you're always pushing.
1:08:05
SPEAKER_03: And yes, we want to be super clean and we would love to be as close to perfect as possible, but it's also not a bad thing to push and push and make mistakes and grow and then make progress because you know ultimately it's getting you closer to your end goals.
1:08:24
SPEAKER_04: We hope you enjoyed our latest episode all about winning versus losing.
1:08:28
SPEAKER_04: Special shout out to our guests, Rob and Emily, for joining us.
1:08:32
SPEAKER_04: Don't forget to follow them on Instagram.
1:08:34
SPEAKER_04: You can find Rob at Rob.gibs and Emily at Champion Mindset Consulting LLC.
1:08:41
SPEAKER_04: And to learn more about Emily's Mindset Consulting for Dancers and Gymnasts, visit her website at Champion Mindset Consulting.com.
1:08:51
SPEAKER_06: Don't forget to follow Making the Impact on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Podcasts, and pretty much everywhere you listen to podcasts.
1:08:57
SPEAKER_06: And if you want more exclusive episodes, support our podcast by joining our Platinum Premium membership for only$5 a month.
1:09:03
SPEAKER_06: Subscribers receive free Making the Impact stickers, shout outs live on the air, ad-free listening, and exclusive access to our QA episodes for members only.
1:09:11
SPEAKER_06: Join now at Impact Dance Adjudicators.com slash Platinum Premium or click the link in our show notes.
1:09:18
SPEAKER_04: Ready to take your competition dance to the next level?
1:09:21
SPEAKER_04: Looking for a fresh set of eyes to critique your solo?
1:09:24
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1:09:28
SPEAKER_04: Simply send us a video of your dance, whether it's from an in-studio rehearsal or an on-stage performance, and our judges will take it from there.
1:09:36
SPEAKER_04: You'll receive a standard video critique just like you get at competition, but we take it one step further with our best-selling feature: 10 to 15 minutes of post-critique additional feedback.
1:09:47
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1:09:58
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1:10:04
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1:10:12
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1:10:17
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1:10:24
SPEAKER_04: Get ready to wow the judges at your next competition after using IDA's online judges critiques.
1:10:31
SPEAKER_06: More awesome episodes in season six are coming your way soon, including our next genre spotlight episode on Rhythm Tap, diversity on judging panels, and audience and dressing room etiquette.