Latest / Send & Grow by SparkLoop / Everyone Went Digital. She Started to Send Fans Letters | Kim Nunley | Send & Grow 2.0 Ep. 5
Transcript
- Hunter Kallay (00:00) Welcome back to Send and Grow, where we explore the people, ideas, and strategies behind some of the most interesting newsletters and media businesses out there. I'm Hunter Cali, publisher partnerships lead at Sparkloop and founder of FryAI. Today I'm joined by Kim Nunley, founder of 30 Second Timeout, a daily women's basketball newsletter that keeps fans caught up in under three minutes. Kim has built a women's basketball media business from the ground up. Growing social media communities to more than 120,000 followers. And in a world where everyone is going digital, she's also taken things offline with the Post Up Club, a monthly snail mail membership that sends fans personal letters and physical keepsakes. So we'll be sure to talk about that today. Kim also played college basketball herself. So this isn't just a media business she happened to build. She's been around the game for a long time. So we'll be sure to get all her hottest basketball takes. So Kim, welcome to the show. Kim (00:58) Hey there, Hunter. Thanks for having me. Really appreciate it. Excited to talk to you. Hunter Kallay (01:02) Awesome. So the first question I have to ask, because we are talking a little bit about basketball, is do you still hoop? Kim (01:08) good question. And you're calling me out right away. Hunter Kallay (01:10) Ha. Kim (01:10) I I stopped hooping about ten years ago or so. like you mentioned, I I played in college, so I had too high of expectations for myself when I when I was at Hunter Kallay (01:20) Mm-hmm. Kim (01:21) the rec league, you know, and I got to a point where I would get so frustrated and would end the evening just like in a bad mood and I was like, you know what, this is supposed to be fun. So I f I finally stepped away and just devoted myself to be the fan. Hunter Kallay (01:35) Right. So you said that you know, on social media that your p passion for basketball came early. Your mom took you to a lot of basketball games growing up. so tell me a little bit about that. Do you have like a favorite memory from those days or what what was that upbringing like being around basketball? Kim (01:50) Yeah. I lucked out to be honest because I grew up at a time where women's basketball was really starting to take off. So I was in high school in the late nineties and at the time in nineteen ninety five Yukon women's basketball just exploded on the scene with their thirty five and season. They were shown on T V, which blew my mind. You know, and then you follow that up in nineteen ninety six and you have the USA women's national team and they really did it up where they did a tour around the country and played exhibition games to in preparation for the Olympics. And so there was like this really cool culmination of me being a young basketball player in small town of Napa, California, with this like explosion of women's basketball, at least in my mind, it was you know, we were in magazines and saw us on T V and they could go to games and and like you said, my mom generously would drive me out to Sacramento to watch the Sacramonar Sacramento Monarch. And I and she took me to Oakland to watch the US national team when they came on their tour. So yeah, I really had this cool culmination of just me loving women's basketball and then it actually being available. so I have a lot of really, really positive memories. I think probably you know, and at that time and it still is that way, the the players are very personable with fans and would engage with you. And so I would actually write letters to my favorite players, you know, at their college program or at their WNBA team or at the time the ABL team and they would actually write back, you know, so it was really Hunter Kallay (03:26) That's awesome. Kim (03:27) cool. Yeah. So I have a you know, I have Pat Summit, I see your Tennessee shirt there, so Hunter Kallay (03:31) Yes, go go volse. Yeah. Wow. Kim (03:33) Yeah, so Pat Summit wrote me back. I still have that. Yeah, I kept all that stuff. So yeah, just really, really cool time. Hunter Kallay (03:41) That's really, really cool. And and that that might have sparked something about like your post mail stuff that you're doing today. Maybe we can talk about that in a second. But like, Kim (03:51) Yep. Hunter Kallay (03:51) so there's a a bit of an explosion that's happened in the WNBA, the Women's National Basketball Association the past few years. what's your what's your hottest take right now on the WNBA? Kim (04:02) my hottest take I would have to say is despite all of the negative narratives going on that are dominating the media, if you actually get in and you go to games and you engage with fans, it's actually a really, really awesome time for the league. So, you know, all the all the negative narratives are kind of overpowering, at least publicly, but when you're really, really into it, it's really, really a special time. You engage with fans, everyone's really positive and excited about the growth of the league. So I I'm really excited to see how it's gonna continue to grow because I think we're just at like a tipping point where it's gonna really, really explode quickly. Hunter Kallay (04:41) Yeah, it seems like the attendance has gone up quite a bit. It seems like the viewership has been great. It's gotten some prime time slots. Obviously, you have some big players that are new to the league, and Caitlin Clark and Angel Reitz, and you have players like Sabrina Ionesco and these great players that are really bringing a lot of attention to to the league, which is awesome. cool. Kim (05:04) Yeah. Hunter Kallay (05:05) So how do you think that? basketball and your background of basketball has changed the way you kind of think about social media or newsletters. Are you are you a kind of a competitive person still where you view it as like a new form of competition or how does how does that work? Kim (05:23) Yeah. That's funny you bring that up because I haven't really thought about it that way. But yes, I'm definitely a competitive person. More in the fact that because as a player or as a coach, when I coach a little bit, I got the mentality from my experience there that I can figure things out and if I fail, well I'm just gonna get back up and come at it again. So I think that's definitely played a part in, you know, how I approach now running this media business. Take a blow and Hunter Kallay (05:49) Awesome. Kim (05:49) blow it off. Hunter Kallay (05:50) Yeah, exactly. So what inspired you to to start a second timeout, a thirty second timeout? Kim (05:56) Yeah, so you know, you mentioned women's basketball is growing at an exponential rate. It's really, really exciting. And yet at the same time, and while coverage is more than it's ever been, which is great, I feel I realized that there was a huge gap still in terms of what fans were looking for and then what they were being serviced with. So with thirty second time out, you know, there's a lot going on in women's basketball all the time. So My goal with that with my partner was to create a daily women's basketball newsletter where they get the top three stories that they need to know just to kind of keep up on what's going on. Provide and alongside of that, we provide a little bit of context of why they should care. And so the goal with that is to help them feel like they can kind of keep up with the game. It's a quick read, it's under three minutes every day. We're very stickler about that 'cause we want people to feel good that they've gotten through the email in the that morning and they have a good grasp on the main things that are happening. Hunter Kallay (06:55) That's really cool. I I love that kind of design where it is just a couple of minutes because especially in a daily newsletter. I've run a daily AI newsletter for almost four years now. And one thing that I've noticed is Kim (07:07) Wow. Hunter Kallay (07:09) people will give you a a a a few minutes, maybe maybe at least a click, maybe a minute or two for the day, but that's what you're gonna get. so if you ask too much from people in those daily especially those daily newsletters, it can really can really hurt what you're trying to do rather than than benefit you, for sure. Kim (07:26) Yeah, I totally agree. And then you know, and then it's like for when you get those daily newsletters yourself and let's say you don't get to it that day or maybe the next day and then all of a sudden they're piling up and you're like, Do Hunter Kallay (07:37) Mm-hmm. Kim (07:37) I even wanna read these or do I just dump and move forward? you know? So yeah. Hunter Kallay (07:41) Yeah, it feels like a pro it feels like a project rather than something that's fun and and entertaining and informative. So cool. So you Kim (07:46) Yeah, exactly, exactly. Hunter Kallay (07:50) you mentioned and you often mention this gap between the size of the passion of the audience in women's basketball and how well they're being served by traditional media and other products. And I imagine there's lots of niches or industries that are like this. where people are like, Look, there's so many people passionate about this. Why are more people not talking about that? where do you see newsletters coming in to to kind of fill that gap? Yeah. Kim (08:15) Yeah. I think it's a it's a necessary gap that fans are if you go to a WNBA game right now, you will see thousands of hungry fans that just want more and more and more. And yet, like you said, the traditional media is just not showing up quite yet. I'm sure they're gonna get there when they realize how much money you know they could be making from it. But for example, I'm in the San Francisco Bay Area. And we have the Golden State Valkyries here. It's a brand new team. They've just been here a year and a half. This is our second year in this season. They have sold out every single game since the beginning. So that over 18,000 people go to the games. The fanship here is wild. Even the people who can't get to games because ticket prices aren't the best. Not not as affordable anymore. There's Hunter Kallay (09:00) Mm-hmm. Kim (09:01) just like this hunger for it. And at the same time, our largest newspaper, the San Francisco Chronicle, doesn't have a writer dedicated the Valkyries. If you go to their website right now and you go to their sports section, it's Warriors, 49ers, Giants. They even still cover the A's, even though they're not here anymore. And then it's like women's sports, you know, all bundled together. So yeah, I just think the newsletters I think is just a response to that gap that people are, you know, looking to fill. Hunter Kallay (09:30) Yeah, and it seems like a great opportunity to kind of jump in and and give people what they want. I mean, they want more and it's a great opportunity to give them that. There's there's not a lot of industries or opportunities for that where you have people who are literally wanting more media, more coverage, and they don't get it. especially in sports, it's it's it's really a great opportunity. yeah, absolutely. So one thing that I've noticed is you've built both social media and newsletters. in tandem, but also separately, what are the main differences between growing each? And are there difficulties with one versus the other that or opportunities versus one versus the other? What have you seen? Kim (10:09) Yeah, I would say they're all really awesome in their own unique ways. So I started on the social media side of things. I in addition to 30 second time out in the post sub club, I actually run a couple of Facebook fan pages just on women's basketball for fans to keep up with things. And so I started with that and just got this really, really good reception to it and but I kind of found You know how the social media world is. It's like the algorithms change. Hunter Kallay (10:36) Mm-hmm. Kim (10:36) Facebook changes their rules, things like that. So thirty second time out kinda actually came from the frustrations I had with social media. Still I love social media because it's it's so interest based now where you can get in front of people and introduce yourself to people who didn't know you existed, you know, in a in a different way than you can with anything else. So yeah, so the newsletter kind of stemmed from those frustrations, like I wanna own my audience, you Hunter Kallay (11:01) Mm-hmm. Kim (11:01) know. And so and I think there's a different level of kind of personal connection that you have when you're when someone's allowing you into their inbox, you know. So I've Hunter Kallay (11:12) Yeah. Kim (11:12) I I felt like I wanted it to be a little bit different than you know, people just scrolling on their phones, like, don't like, moving on. So with our newsletter we get, you know, at least three minutes hopefully with them every morning to really connect with them on women's basketball. And then I know we haven't really dove into it yet, but the but the snail mail club, but the post up club is a further extension of that where, you know, we really sit down and I can c really, really connect with fans in a slower, more intentional way. Hunter Kallay (11:39) Yeah, so tell me about that. You st you started this, it's called the post up club, right? So great name. If you're not a basketball fan, Kim (11:45) Thank you. Hunter Kallay (11:46) posting up is a term used in basketball where you're kind of like underneath the hoop and you kind of call for the ball and they give it to you and you c you kind of post up, right? so I love the name, but then like post up, like post office. So it it it's the Kim (11:59) Mail post, yeah. Hunter Kallay (12:00) mail post. It's great. So love the name. and this is where you actually send people real mail. Like everybody's going digital. Everybody's like, I want to go on social media. Or like you said, I want to actually own my audience and not be suppressed by the algorithm. So I want to I want to do a newsletter. So everybody's digital, but you're like, I'm actually gonna do something, you know, I'm doing the digital stuff, but I'm gonna do something else as a kind of separator. I'm gonna do this snail mail. I'm gonna send people postcards or or whatever. kind of like how you sent these players and coaches mail, which is a very, very cool thing. So tell me about that experience. Should more people be doing this? And and why did why did you choose to to do this? Kim (12:38) I definitely recommend it. I love it. Out of the three products, it's definitely the I'm most excited about it. I've only I started it about five months ago now and it's really, really taken off. I s it started with an idea, well, a c was a couple of things that kind of came together. So, you know, I'm a Golden State Valkyrie season ticket holder and so I would be at all the games and just to kind of be close by people who have this fervish need for connection around women's basketball and the WNBA. And then I saw this really, really cool podcast with a woman who runs a very large snail mail club and the way she it's a completely different niche, but the way she was describing that level of connection that she's able to get with people, it just kind of like snapped. And then like you said, with you know, I kind of had my own little snail mail club for myself when I was in high school with writing Hunter Kallay (13:30) Yeah. Kim (13:30) these players and coaches and And so I remember that exciting feeling of, you know, something arriving in the mail and it's got your name Hunter Kallay (13:39) Uh-huh. Kim (13:39) on it. And you open it up, you have no idea what's in it and it's around, you know, women's basketball that I love. So yeah, it's just it's been really, really awesome and a lot of things have surprised me with it so far, even in these early days, which I guess it shouldn't have, but You know, I was at Valkyrie's game about a month ago and a woman came out to me. She recognized me from social media and she gave me this stack of autographed WNBA cards that she'd gotten throughout the season at games just for me to like throw into people's envelopes. Yep. Hunter Kallay (14:13) that's really cool. Kim (14:14) Yep. And then I had a a woman reach out over social media and ask me to do a happy birthday message, you know, to their partner. You know, they're big fans of the post sub club and I don't know, it's just really, really cool. It's a whole different level of Hunter Kallay (14:28) Yeah. Kim (14:28) connection than anything else. So I highly recommend people check things out and, you know, explore it for themselves. Hunter Kallay (14:35) That is really, really cool. So I I want to know more about this, actually. Like I I want to I want to dig into this more Kim (14:42) Mm. Hunter Kallay (14:43) because this is, I mean, I talk to a lot of newsletter publishers. I I I work at Sparkloop, so I'm I'm talking to people about their newsletter growth, their monetization, all this stuff. And this is the first time I've I've actually seen somebody who's like, look, I I I send these letters. And it resonates with me because Like just last week, my sister sends me a birthday card and it's got my name on it. I'm like, wow. I'm like, and I started thinking, I'm like, this is like the first piece of mail that somebody has sent me in in like a long Kim (15:13) Yeah. Hunter Kallay (15:14) time. And it's a good feeling. You see your name on there, Kim (15:17) It really is. Hunter Kallay (15:18) you don't know what's inside, you're excited, you're like, who's this from? You know, it's really cool. Like there's a lot of excitement around that. That's much different than an email. Sure, even the best emails. I'd like to think people get excited to read my newsletter, but let's be honest, it's not as exciting as getting something in the mail. So yeah, so so when did like how did you get started with this? And what is the what is the process? Like more on like the mechanical side here, maybe like what is the process of like actually managing the mail, sending it out? do you like charge for it? Like how how do your costs get covered? Like, what does that look like? Kim (15:56) Yeah, there it's a monthly subscription. So people can sign up and they get it once a month. I send it out on the first of every month. And yeah, I use you know, it's getting the a little bit of the nitty gritty. I use Shopify to run everything. It's been really, really great of managing, you know, everyone's addresses and, you know, who comes and goes as subscriptions come in and and leave and yeah, but you should see my home, you know, couple days before the first when I have Hunter Kallay (16:23) wow. Kim (16:23) to lay everything out and yeah, I'm pretty detail oriented. So not only do like lay everything out, but then I gotta double check it, you know, make sure that I don't miss any Hunter Kallay (16:33) Right. Kim (16:33) inserts. Cause with the Mail Club, what it is basically is every single month someone gets a personally written letter from me and it's I kind of intertwine some personal things going on in my life and then my observations of what's going on in women's basketball at the time. And so and then I also include a handful of paper extras. So for example, I've done in the past trivia, I've done a crossword puzzle, I did an origami WMBA ball that people could make. Hunter Kallay (17:03) That's cool. Kim (17:04) Yeah, so a lot of you know it changes every single month. And but yeah, it's a it's it's an adventure every single month. I'm learning a lot every single time. I've learned to very be very stickler about the inserts and the weight because that Hunter Kallay (17:18) Mm. Kim (17:18) forever stamp only go you know covers up to an ounce of you know Hunter Kallay (17:22) Right, right. Kim (17:23) mail so I've learned my lesson on that one. so yeah it's it's really cool. It's really fun. I like it because it's like it's almost like a game, I guess, a basketball game where it's like you're plugging along, plugging along methodically, methodically as I put it together and what's gonna look like. And then there's like a sprint at the end, you know, to get it out. So Hunter Kallay (17:41) Yeah. Kim (17:42) and then Then there's like a timeout, you know, right after the first where it's gone out. So yeah, it's really, really fun. Yeah. Hunter Kallay (17:47) That's really cool. Do you find that you get responses from time to time or what does that look like? Kim (17:53) Yeah, good question. That was been another really cool surprise is that I get mail back sometimes. So people will write back and let me know their own, you know, women's basketball story, how they got into it. I've gotten really s some really cool gifts. So in one letter I mentioned who my favorite player was and someone sent me like a really, really nice trading card of that player. So Hunter Kallay (18:13) Wow. Kim (18:14) yeah, it's it's really, really neat. And I think it works really well for women's basketball in particular because In the WNBA there are fifteen teams, right? So all you know, in Hunter Kallay (18:23) Mm-hmm. Kim (18:24) throughout the country and then there's one in Canada and so there's so many people that don't live nearby, you know, where they can go watch a game really easily, Hunter Kallay (18:31) Mm. Right. Kim (18:33) you know. Or there's people that, you know, love women's basketball, but maybe their friends don't, you know. So Hunter Kallay (18:37) Mm-hmm. Kim (18:37) like hopefully this kind of provides them with that like personal connection with someone who enjoys the same passion that they do. Hunter Kallay (18:44) Yeah, that that is so cool. It's one of the coolest things I've ever seen in this newsletter space is this post-up club. Kim (18:50) Thank you. Hunter Kallay (18:51) Really, really incredible. And who knows, maybe, maybe more people will try this out because I I love the personal connection and I love the I like I always love stuff that's very counterintuitive. That's how my mind works. stuff that's like, well, everybody's going digital, like everybody is zigging, I'm gonna zag, you know, in or is as some people say, everybody's zigging, I'm gonna zoink because they expect you to say, you know. Kim (19:11) Yep, yep, yep, yep. Hunter Kallay (19:12) So like this kind of this kind of thing, I I love that. Like it it's it's really cool when you see somebody actually going kind of against the grain and it's something that is really, really cool and creating those personal connections. It's like having a bunch of really cool pen pals that you can talk to that are interested in what you're interested in. Like that's that's really cool. Kim (19:32) Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's really, really cool. And I have to give a shout out to you know, I mentioned her briefly, but the woman who runs the other snail mill club, her name is Hannah Gustafson and it's called the Tiny Post. And her whole thing is again, it's like it's like we have we share a similarity and the and the goal is to help people slow down and be in the moment and be more intentional with things. Hers is more real life things, so she's got like journal prompts and you know, this kind of whimsical art that she makes and a recipe card and things like that. But but I saw a interview with her on Chris Corner's podcast and so she was talking about it and it just the way she was talking about that connection that she has with the people that are members of her club really, really resonated with me. So I I subscribe to her snail mail club now because I have to give her a lot of credit and I appreciate her sharing her story. So I can start this. Yeah. Hunter Kallay (20:27) Awesome. Great, great shout out there. Yeah, it's always great to to identify people in the space that are kind of doing stuff that you that you want to either not necessarily copy but mimic or take elements from and say, I really like what they do are doing over here. I really like what they're doing over here. And I I'm gonna try to make a conglomeration of of all that. That's one of my favorite things about the like the new newsletter community, if you will, is like. or email community or email list community is like this idea that you can take bits and pieces of what you like from certain newsletters and say, you know what, I'm I'm gonna incorporate that. Or in your case, beyond the newsletter, I I like that. I I'll oftentimes be looking through my inbox and I'm subscribed to a decent amount of newsletters. I actually have a full email dedicated to just newsletter subscriptions because there's so many people I wanna follow Kim (21:19) Yeah. Hunter Kallay (21:21) that I know. But Yeah, I'll I'll look through that periodically and as I'm going through, I'll often see really cool, unique elements that people are doing. and I'll try to incorporate my own version of that into my what I what I'm doing. So yeah, I definitely understand that. That's that's one of the that's one of the coolest parts of about the the newsletter space in in my in my opinion. So Kim (21:42) Yeah, I agree. Yeah. I do the same thing where I try and subscribe to a lot of different creators and see what they're doing. I also really appreciate that in the space overall I think people are very open, you know, and realize Hunter Kallay (21:54) Mm-hmm. Kim (21:54) that we can all have our own little space and create our own little thing and people are open to sharing tactics and things that are working for them or not working for them. So I think that's really cool. Hunter Kallay (22:04) Yeah. And I think that's a that's a tip I would give to anybody who's maybe early on in in newsletter in the newsletter space is go find some newsletters that are really successful in the ways that you you want to be, even if it's not in your niche or maybe it is. go find some newsletters that have been successful. Follow them, see what they do. What do they do with their welcome email? What do they do with their, you know, their follow-ups? Do do do when you click a link, do they follow up with you? What kind of offers are they giving to people? you know, like that that sort of thing is important to pay attention to and then find some good guides and ask some questions. Like, there's some great people out there. Email me and ask me a question. Email Kim, ask a question. Kim (22:45) There you Hunter Kallay (22:45) You know, a lot of people are willing to help and offer it advice and guidance. And yeah, it's great to learn from other people's mistakes also, so you don't have to make the same ones yourself. So Kim (22:56) Yeah, I was just gonna add, you know, you can learn so much of, you know, what you like about what other people are doing and then you can also like I'll notice like when there's a email newsletter that I don't open for a little bit and I'm like, Why d why am I not opening this? Does it just seem like too big of a lift for me to read this at any given Hunter Kallay (23:10) Mm-hmm. Kim (23:13) time? So yeah, you can learn a lot from watching people. Hunter Kallay (23:16) Yeah. Is there anyone else that you'd like to shout out or are there any other newsletters that you are following right now that you're like, Hey, people should go check out this one or or that one? Kim (23:25) Yeah, I think I have two I would shout out outside of Hannah and her tiny post snail mail club. But the first one is this man named Daniel Daniel Bustamente. Hunter Kallay (23:37) Yeah. Kim (23:37) he runs yeah, you might be familiar with him. Yeah. I love his daily email tactics, email newsletter that he sends out, and I think I get a lot of inspiration from him because every single email he sends I know it's gonna be some real valuable information and it's gonna be nice and quick. You know, so I I've always pay attention to what he's doing, like when I'm doing 30 second timeout, because I don't miss an email from him because there's always something really, really helpful that I learned from him. And then the second one is completely different. it's a woman in the Bay Area here. her name is Maya Goldberg Soleer and she runs a newsletter called Rough Notes. It's women's basketball related, but it's completely different than thirty second time out, where it's more of a memoir narrative kind of approach to it. So she'll really dive in and provide, you know, more context to bigger things that are going on in the WMBA or college women's basketball. So both of those kind of doing their own thing and I appreciate both of them for what they're doing. Hunter Kallay (24:38) That's awesome. Yeah, I'll have to check out that that the rough notes one. I've been following Daniel for a while. He's he does a great job, especially on I I follow him on LinkedIn. We're connected there. And he, yeah, always, always Kim (24:49) Yes, yep. Hunter Kallay (24:50) some great tips. So very cool. So as we as we wrap this up, I really appreciate you you taking the time to jump on. obviously, people should go subscribe to 30 second timeout, check it out. See see see what Kim's up to there. Join the post up club. Is there anything else that you'd like to to mention or or say as we or shout out as we log off here? Kim (25:13) well I guess I would just thank you, Hunter, for letting me come on here and talk, share my story, talk about women's basketball. I could do that all day long and you know, I'm very grateful for being able to take this passion that I had growing up and, you know, make it into a business. So just wanna express my gratitude. Hunter Kallay (25:31) That's awesome. Yeah. Really appreciated having you on today. And hopefully people took some some great tips away from what we talked about. And then also go smash that subscribe on the the post up club and the thirty second timeout. Kim (25:44) Please. There you go. Women's basketball fans, let's go.