Latest / Beyond our Stories / What If the Voice Holding You Back Is Your Own? | Beyond Our Stories with Jessica Pressler
Transcript
- speaker-0: I was doing it speaker-1: doing lots of couple therapy and individual therapy, I understood speaker-0: Good toxic relationships. speaker-1: I could not see it in myself. We weren't taught in school about the trauma bond, about narcissistic these terms that we're talking about now, which is so important and so why your movie is so important isn't real relatively new phenomenon. Most narcissists aren't showing up in a doctor's office. They come in and they see your wounds and they see your vulnerability. And I always say they see your traitor within in the beginning and they learn you. speaker-0: Right. What looks like speaker-1: Caring and empathy in the beginning is truly a speaker-0: Study. speaker-2: Every person has a story. Some stories make us laugh, some challenge us. speaker-0: Stay with us long after they're over. speaker-2: But sometimes the most meaningful part of the story isn't the ending. speaker-0: It's the conversation that starts afterwards. speaker-2: Welcome to Beyond Our Stories. I'm Ali. speaker-0: Stephanie. speaker-2: And today's conversation is one that we believe will resonate with many people. Whether you've experienced emotional abuse yourself, supported someone who has, or simply wondered why we sometimes ignore the voice inside us that feels something isn't right. Our guest today is Jessica Ann Presner. Jessica is a therapist, author. Podcast host and the creator of the traitor meeting. A concept that explores how unhealthy patterns can leave us trapped often without us even realizing it. speaker-1: Today. speaker-0: Today's conversation was inspired by our movie I Love You My Narcissist. We met Jessica before on her podcast, and today on Beyond Our Stories, our conversation is going beyond the movie itself. Together we'll explore why we stay in unhealthy relationships, how childhood experiences shape our decisions, the difference between fear and intuition, and what healing can truly look like. Jessica, it's such a pleasure to have you here. Thank you so much for joining us. speaker-1: It's such a pleasure to be here and to see you. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-2: Jessica, before you become a therapist, an author and the creator of the Territo V team, who were you? speaker-0: Well, I have to say that speaker-1: The therapist in me has always been there. So that piece was always there. And I think that's very important to note because you can be a therapist and you can go down a road with a narcissist again and again with all the knowledge and still be stuck in relationships. speaker-0: In relation speaker-1: And I say that because I want people to not feel shameful if you speaker-0: They do. speaker-1: wind up meeting, staying, being manipulated by a a a narcissist because anybody can. If I could, anyone could. Who was speaker-0: So speaker-1: I before? I was a person that always wanted to help people. I started counseling people in high school and for because I was bullied, so I wanted to take care of speaker-0: I was speaker-1: trained. I went straight through college and grad school and helped people. what I saw in others in myself. Plus, narcissism and topic and in relationships was not taught to us in school. That's a recent phenomenon. So on top of that, even so I understood, you know, certain manipulations in other relationships, I couldn't see it in my own. And what speaker-0: Was there a moment in in your life then that you decided to take a different path and change and and that changed how you understood yourself? speaker-1: Yeah. And so this is important note also and and I'm gonna preface by saying it doesn't matter when you do it because speaker-0: Because I was speaker-1: in one narcissistic relationship speaker-0: Abusive relationship. speaker-1: over and over again. Marriages, long, you know, almost 10 years each relationships. And I still kept doing it again and again because I didn't take the time in between to heal. I didn't take the time in between to learn about myself. And so marriages like said, speaker-0: After three that I speaker-1: I'm taking time. That's when I discovered the traitor within. That's when I discovered that not only are other people manipulating. speaker-0: But I have a part of me that allowed it. speaker-1: to happen. Now I wanna say that I was extremely healthy in so many other ways and in between relationships I was my my desire's was not to be obviously in a in a speaker-0: Toxic relationship. But speaker-1: between my trader within and the manipulation of these people. Look speaker-0: Well I realized speaker-1: out and looking in. This is why I love journaling, telling story, because you can learn from other people's stories and your own because you're the outside looking in. I didn't notice what I was doing. I didn't I was I always thought everything was my fault. And that's my trader also coming in. speaker-0: But I speaker-1: felt many of us who are empathetic in these relationships. So I came to the relationship with a speaker-0: also get caught relationship. speaker-1: lot of empathy with my trader. speaker-0: who speaker-1: showed up in these relationships to look the other way, to make excuses for speaker-0: Their behavior to speaker-1: I never I was taught not to be angry. So, you know, anger is something that is also a a symptom of something, right? You if you were taught not to feel anger, not to express your feelings because it's not safe, then you're away speaker-0: It's easy to look the other way. speaker-1: when things happen, right? I didn't look at any of this when I was in the relationships. I was so hyper vigilant, so worried about the relationship, speaker-0: Relationship. speaker-1: so twisting myself in a pretzel in order to make it work because I was the only one that was working, right? Trying to make it work. I didn't have time to speaker-0: that really speaker-1: figure out what was going on. I needed the distance. I needed the time and done and I didn't want to do it again because it really was. I mean, I'm talk I'm saying that I was doing this until I was fifty years old. So I was enough of this, you know, and I'd been dating, I met my first husband at fifteen. So we're talking many, many, many years of this repetitive self sabotage in romantic relationships. Stop it. I had to stop it for me. And then I had to stop and learn for others as well. speaker-0: You said if this can happen to you, this can happen to other people as well. You mean because of your professional knowledge and this still happened to you? Or can you explain that a little bit more? Yes. It's exactly what I mean. That speaker-1: What I mean that speaker-0: if I who speaker-1: was trained and I was helping others. I was helping friends, I was helping clients to lots speaker-0: I was doing a lot of speaker-1: of couple therapy and individual therapy. I understood relationships, speaker-0: Toxic relationship. speaker-1: I could not see it in myself. And I want to always point that out because if I can do it with my training, then anyone can. So the knowledge, speaker-0: So we have two pieces. You have knowledge. speaker-1: you know, we always say I always say knowledge is a superpower, but it's not just knowledge of. Let's just say the narcissist is not just knowledge of all the terms that we teach. It's also understanding of yourself. you can have all the knowledge in the world, but speaker-0: So But if you have a trader speaker-1: which is telling you, my goodness, they the speaker-0: They're they speaker-1: narcissist has a traitor too. You know, they they had a difficult childhood. They had a parent speaker-0: That caused speaker-1: them to be wounded. my goodness, I want to help them. I want to love them enough. So speaker-0: So they feel better. speaker-1: I wanna, you know, I want, I want, I want to help. And I and I know if if I do A, B, and C, speaker-0: It's speaker-1: it's This person's gonna get better. And if this person gets better, then our relationship will get better. And you live on this addicted speaker-0: Hope you get addicted to the hope. But as I said also speaker-1: We weren't taught in school about the trauma bond, about narcissist terms speaker-0: About speaker-1: that we're talking about now, which is so important. And so why your movie is so important isn't real relatively new phenomenon, the technical terms, because most narcissists aren't showing up in a doctor's office. They're not getting diagnosed. So this is a term of traits. This is not, you know, the diagnosis. This is an understanding of who you're dealing with in your relationships. And how it in this case shows up romantically. speaker-2: Okay, you mentioned territory within a couple of times in in in between what you said. Yes. and you created the term the territory within with the podcast and and and the book as well. can you tell us what does the term the territory within means and and what is the concept? speaker-0: So in this speaker-1: period of time which I was trying to figure out why I stayed in these relationships, I speaker-0: I speaker-1: came up with a discovery of myself and then it and then applied it to others. speaker-0: that we have a part of us that self savage. speaker-1: many of us that sabotage in our adult relationships and how we feel about and how speaker-0: ourself, how we show up at work, how we act. It's self-sabotage. Pete self-sabotage. speaker-1: So we and and repeat speaker-0: It's how we cope with the world. I believe that part of us is speaker-1: Because when you're a child speaker-0: You should be, should to be yourself explore safety. speaker-1: be feeling safe, safe and to safe to ex to just have fun. But many of us, because of various different reasons in our childhood, don't have that. speaker-0: Safety. So we create our world. We have an alcohol we may speaker-1: the best way we can. A parent we may be the parentified child where we have to make sure we're fed. speaker-0: Or they're fed or we have to take care of We be perfect so that we have speaker-1: their acceptance. These are all examples that happen in childhood. With my case to when there's anything bad of the speaker-0: Or I was taught look the other way when speaker-1: other person, I was taught to make things better any way I I was my feelings didn't matter. I was too sensitive. I took that information and way to cope into my romantic relationships, which meant when my speaker-0: Other speaker-1: would cheat on me, speaker-0: By the next speaker-1: day I didn't feel it anymore. It was pain and initially maybe even some anger, but then it was gone. And I just carried on because one big message I messaging and modeling in childhood was carry on. speaker-0: I had 'cause part of it is why carry speaker-1: The women I was taught in my family used speaker-0: You look the other way, you fix it. speaker-1: And you excuse behavior and you carry on. It's what my mother did, it's what my grandmother did. A lot of it's intergenerational trauma and it's what I did and it's what I'm doing very much to not do in order for my children now 'cause I did it, but now no more. So my children don't do it. You know, it's in it's not wanting to pass that on. speaker-2: So it means that this traitor within is not something that we weren't born with, but something that we developed, right? speaker-1: So this is something that we create ourselves in order to feel safe as a child and then bring it into our adult relationship. So we're not born with it. Though we are born with certain temperament, I do believe that. But it's something that we create in order to feel safe. And it's something I want to be very clear. It's a part of us that I want to have compassion toward because it's a protective part. It's a part that wants to take care of you. It took care of you in your childhood. It's just misguided. Just when it shows up in your adult life, the trick. speaker-0: It as a creator. speaker-1: change. I want to be very clear. I but I want to have compassion toward themselves because they're good intentioned. The reason I call it a trader is, you know, sometimes even when we talk politically, someone could be a ch considered a traitor, but they're doing it because they believe in the cause. It's still something to be compassionate about and forgiving because the cause is there. The trader wants to do right for you. With me, I was scared of abandonment. So my trader felt that she I call her sh mine as a sh everything she could in order to feel abandoned, which meant I took what I spoke before into those relationships. speaker-0: Because speaker-1: If they left me, or even if I left them when they let me, that's abandonment. speaker-2: I'm wondering because because because many many children they don't have a healthy childhood, right? And it is very usual for for these children to develop this rate orbit in in the in the early childhood. But is it possible for the children who have a healthy childhood to develop that as well? speaker-0: Yes, it absolutely can. speaker-1: Let's just say you a parent who's ill. They're still wonderful parents, right? But a parent is ill. So the child has to compensate for that period of time or has anxiety. and the child has to make, you know, speaker-0: Deal with. speaker-1: someone who's chaotic home because of that. speaker-0: Or speaker-1: They could learn it from other people in their lives. They could learn from society. You know, women are sometimes taught, maybe hopefully less now, that they're the ones that have to fix everything. That they're the ones that have speaker-0: To be speaker-1: be the g you know, to be the good girl. There's norms in certain cultures that women have to behave a certain way or men have to behave a certain way and they take that. So it doesn't have to be from parents. It could be from society. It could be from experience that they had at school. But it always comes down to a need to feel safe. And developing the skills, the coping mechanisms to feel safe, make and it works in childhood. It does not work in it in their adult lives anymore. speaker-0: How would a person start to get in touch with their trader within? So if speaker-1: someone came into my office and said they were self-sabotaging, we I would have them go back to their childhood. You know, I would be somewhat of a detective with them to try to figure out, you know, what was going on. And we would first then have an understanding, you know, have an acceptance this is what's happening. Then we most people are triggered speaker-0: Most people will their trade their trade. speaker-1: with and will pop up when they're triggered. You know, they suddenly get anxious. So they suddenly start behaving in a certain way that winds up being self-sabotaging. speaker-0: So it's later as speaker-1: an understanding of the who the traitor is, to lead with compassion, to understand it's a protective part. And then it's to speaker-0: to speaker-1: then learn certain things like initially breathing exercises, grounding exercises, something to bring your nervous system down because I don't think we can do a lot of work when we are reactive, when we're triggered. So it's getting more of the cognitive speaker-0: It's speaker-1: self. And then there's different methods, honestly. People could do EMDR. speaker-0: They they they there's speaker-1: cognitive therapy and understanding. There's trauma therapy, different trauma therapies, somatic therapies. That's a little bit of trial and error. When you start to heal, that is a speaker-0: Part it's speaker-1: little bit of trial and error. What works for one person may not work for another. But the initial thing is understanding your trader, forgiving, you know, having compassion toward it and learning to calm your nervous system down. And then this various different methods in regard to healing. Journaling, I love journaling. And I'll go back to your movie again and to my book, Storytelling is really important. It not to s to help yourself and to help others. speaker-2: Okay, with what you said, I I I think I believe that all trade orbiting and our intuition are somehow similar in a way, but how do we know if in a specific moment it's our intuition speaking or it's our trade orbiting? speaker-1: Well, first I'll share with you each other. Sometimes, and I had someone on my podcast, a gentleman on my podcast talk about this being his trader, they'll get an initial feeling, intuition, and the trader will say, No, you're wrong. You know, that that that you're you're being too sensitive. So see this gentleman spoke about traitor speaker-0: He this this year. speaker-1: is the one that pushed down his intuition, which if in a romantic relationship would be someone who says, that's a red flag, and then trader would say it's not a red flag. You're just you're just being too sensitive. speaker-0: So that's how they work to speaker-1: They work against each other. how do you know? It's the intuition's not going to self-sabotage. I think it's just speaker-0: You know. speaker-1: is that. And I think the first feeling is often intuition. And it it's often the trader that actually squashes. speaker-2: Okay, that's very interesting because I I have now I have now a question that makes me busy because it happens to me every day, every second. Does this fork the round the the the way around? It means that your traitor within a starts sabotaging you and your intuition say, No, that's that's not correct and it's it will be this way and it will be fine and and stuff like this. This Does it does it work this way as well, or it's just intuition first and then the tr the traitor between just sabotaging a person? speaker-0: Well, I I guess that's a possibility. speaker-1: The first reaction is the trader within. And then intuition says, wait a second, something's wrong. But then the trader says, Don't listen to that intuition. You know, it's like, yeah, no, it could work both ways. They're having a little bit of a fight. And it's speaker-0: It's speaker-1: it's I mean, somebody would say it's the devil and the and the and the angel fighting. Depends how you look at it. speaker-0: But you're right, it could go either way. speaker-1: the self sabotaging voice that's the self sabotager. speaker-2: Yeah, that's that's very interesting because because I am dealing with this every time, before before every decision making meetings, before every important situation, before any before e every small, big, middle e everything. the first the first thing that it comes to my mind is, it's not going to work well. I I I I suck at this thing. it's it it will go this way, this way, this way. I start self supportizing myself, bringing bringing myself so much down that some sometimes I I don't want that meeting to take place or to to start. And then out of nowhere my my in my intuition says, it will be fine. it will go just as you plan. and everything is speaker-1: I'm glad you have this speaker-0: You have this speaker-1: intuition voice also, because and it's it's gonna take time. I you know, the trader within, I'd like to say you people can get rid of it, but you mostly you're not getting rid of it. It's like years of of those inner voices in your monologue. But you can over time, like what you do, your intuition is saying, Wait a second, trader, you're wrong. I got this. I got this now. I know better. I mean, I have these bracelets to give people. So it some it's sometimes then they have this, you know, the trader within the first voice, then they can look at the bracelet and say, Wait a second. now, you know, now I'm gonna s that's wrong. Like we're changing this right now. But I also speaker-0: Like this thought that that you should have compassion with your traitor within. Yes. 'Cause at least at some point in your life it was serving you. It did something it was your friend and was doing something good for you. speaker-1: And as an adult, you have choice. I mean I want people to know that. You have choice. speaker-0: You have choice. You have choice to whatever you you have that ability. speaker-1: stop him, her, they call your traitor within and you don't have to do it alone. you can make mistakes, you can have two steps back and go four steps forward. You know, it's a process. speaker-0: That we have to deal with. speaker-1: We can make change. We never ever speaker-2: For the listeners and the viewers who are listening and watching and asking how these people met the first time. we met Jessica for the first time, for for our movie I Love You, My Narcissist, and we did also a podcast with Jessica in her podcast, The Threator Betin. It's very both hearing and watching, so we highly recommend that. And now we are here just because of the movie originally and now that why because we are talking about the movie, I'm interested to hear Jessica. It's it's a while since you watched the movie, right? So my I'm interested to know what stayed with you the longest until now from the movie. speaker-1: I think the movie wasn't two excellent examples 'cause there were two stories. examples speaker-0: Of how speaker-1: insidious or how slowly the manipulation happens. Even so the movie was what, two hours or whatever, but you were able to show, which I thought was remarkable, how We, you know, people say, What's the red flags? What's the red flags? It isn't s so like that. You can't necessarily see the red flags in the beginning. I mean, I could give you some, but the truth is the manipulation is strong, right? Especially if you don't understand. And so in the both examples, there who speaker-0: Two people who speaker-1: were very hopeful in the beginning and very happy in the beginning and just, you know, and about one one of the stories too is that there's a narcissistic family. So you're you're teaching not only through story, you're teaching not only about the individual. couple relationship, then you're seeing the entire family. You're seeing why the person behaves the way they are and how in many narcissistic families they protect each other. They protect the unit. speaker-0: So it's speaker-1: Even more destructive or painful sometimes because you're dealing not just with one, but a group of people. And in the other one, you're dealing with, you know, it was a woman who was so hopeful and so and he just the the manipulation, they they come in and they see your wounds and they see your vulnerability. And I always say they see your traitor within. in the beginning and they learn you. speaker-0: Right, what looks like speaker-1: Caring and empathy in the beginning is truly study. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: And they learn who you are subconsciously and consciously. And they two stories with speaker-0: Take it and you you had two stories which showed speaker-1: an excellent two excellent examples of how that happened. speaker-2: Which character was your favorite? speaker-1: You know, for different reasons. I don't I I mean, I love that you showed the family. So the initi the the the gentleman who was and he was particularly vulnerable because he was right an immigrant and he you know, so on top of speaker-0: The speaker-1: emotional piece of a connection with her, there was also that other. And then the other one was interesting too, because you're talking about all the speaker-0: That that speaker-1: sexual manipulation, which is really important. So I don't know if I can give you which one I like better. They both were great. speaker-0: You already mentioned it a little bit that you saw the traitor within or you you guess the narcissists were attacking the traitor within from the survivors. You you phrased that better than I just did. but like how how did it show in the movie for you? speaker-1: Because you start at the beginning of the relationship. So you you know, you show the progression. they learn who they are. They and part of that is their traitor. They're they learned their wounds, they learn how they f they function. the the woman that wanted to be a star, you know, he just trapped right into that just speaker-0: He speaker-1: went right in and and made her feel like she's gonna be a star and he's gonna and of course he becomes the most important one. You know, they the the narcissist save speaker-0: But always is the sphere, right? speaker-1: even if they're even if you're in a it's speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: already gotten very toxic and and painful, they still look like the only one that could actually save them. And that was portrayed beautifully in both, but in the in the romantic, sexual, more sexual one, you know, it's it's longing for that hope. It's longing, even when things get terrible, you're still longing for peace. speaker-0: That's speaker-1: And he understood her, as well as she understood him, both stories, and used their knowledge and what they desires are, what their needs were. I mean, the gentleman who was an immigrant was very vulnerable, besides emotionally vulnerable, was vulnerable as being an immigrant. speaker-0: Actually speaker-1: Evil, right? There's an evil component to it. Then you definitely showed that in both stories. speaker-0: And probably also in the narcissist themselves. Like I in Sarah, for example, the character that I portrayed, I think I understand for example what her traitor within could look like. speaker-1: Yeah, so it's very important, and I always preface this when I teach this, that the narcissist has a traitor within. They often come out of painful family systems. speaker-0: Like your character did. speaker-1: they often become a narcissist who speaker-0: two. speaker-1: survive as a child. And part of their surviv protective their protective is the shell. They need to put a mask on because their true self is they have shame toward their theirselves. they don't you know, there's a negative feeling toward themselves for various reasons. Maybe as a child, you pretend to be perfect in order to be accepted by their parent, their the often their narcissistic parent. So, you know, it's an understanding to have that knowledge of the the narcissist traitor within, because they have one and they probably have and they definitely have wounds from childhood and but and their armor, but their armor is so protective. And I always where a person who's not a narcissist has a traitor within, it's all self sabotage. A narcissist has a traitor within, yes, it's self sabotage because they're never going to have a healthy relationship. speaker-0: But it's speaker-1: Other sabotage. They're hurting others, not just themselves. speaker-0: Where the other speaker-1: traitor within just hurts themselves. And as a therapist, you can even feel sorry for the narcissist because they of their pain. But that does not mean anybody should be involved with one, as, you know, in an an inter interpersonal relationship, because no one should be speaker-0: Abused. speaker-1: period. No one should be mistreated. And they mistreat people 'cause that's their disease. Like, you know. speaker-0: Yeah. And it also doesn't excuse their behavior. speaker-1: Does not. And you should not no one should stay in it. No one should accept any sort of abuse or mistreatment. Sometimes I tell people because then sometimes people come to me, is this an is he a narcissist? Is she a narciss narcissist? And I the label doesn't necessarily even matter. It helps us to teach if someone's mistreating you, it's not okay. And with a narcissist, pretty much, yes, there's exceptions and it depends because there's a spectrum of how someone has how many traits you know someone has. They can't tolerate the truth. speaker-0: They will speaker-1: They don't have insight. They don't have the empathy. They are not gonna change, most likely. And that's an acceptance that was very difficult for me. speaker-2: For the listeners and viewers of today's episode, being a survivor or people who are new to the topic, what would you say if they decide to watch the movie? What should they expect from the movie? And what could they feel after watching? speaker-0: So if you speaker-1: For the ones that have never been in a narcissistic relationship, it's gonna be very enlightening. I think that the people haven't speaker-0: Because that if speaker-1: un learned about it's going to help them hopefully understand the manipulation piece. speaker-0: Because speaker-1: Often, you know, I've certainly heard it, why didn't you leave earlier? Why didn't you out? course they don't show their true colors in public. And I think it your your movie stories speaker-0: sorry. speaker-1: will enlighten people in what goes on behind the closed doors. For the ones that never speaker-0: So this type of relationship are part of it. speaker-1: Then for them, that's what that would do. And for the ones that are in it, it will not only give validation, but it also speaker-0: So speaker-1: makes them feel not so alone. And maybe they can see things more clearly. You know, I have a book coming out, Trader Within, and it's a fictional story speaker-0: Of a speaker-1: of a woman who keeps getting caught up in narcissistic relationships again and again. And I think that's the same thing where speaker-0: It would do it teaches, but also speaker-1: Where you can get emotionally attached to a character, which I did in your two stories, and you can feel empathy for them. You can you actually come out watching speaker-0: Of why speaker-1: those two stories understanding. speaker-0: Why they stayed. speaker-1: understanding feeling their pain and understanding the the narcissist and I mean speaker-0: What tactics they use. speaker-1: I think it's very your stories are very enlightening. Either way, either you're being on you're feeling understood a speaker-0: It good if you are speaker-1: victim of a narcissist. And if speaker-0: You're speaker-1: have no knowledge of one, you're understanding what's going on. So hopefully you can help be a better friend to someone who is a victim of a narcissist. And if you're a narcissist, you're not going to understand this at all because you're never going to see yourself in it. So speaker-2: Okay, Jessica. before we continue, since we talked about the movie I Love My Narcissist, we'd like to take a brief moment to tell everyone who is listening or who is watching where they can watch the movie that inspired today's conversation. One of the reasons we created Alex Sinister is because we believe powerful stories deserve more than a single viewing. They deserve a place where people can discover them, reflect on them. and continue the conversation afterwards. Alexine Stream is a creative streaming platform dedicated to independent movies from around the world. Every movie is carefully selected because it has something meaningful to say. These are stories that stay with you long after the credits roll. speaker-0: If today's conversation resonates with you, then we encourage you to watch I Love Your My Narcissist, the movie that we are talking about today. this movie explores the realities of narcissistic abuse through both personal stories and expert insights. You can watch I Love Your My Narcissist along with other carefully curated movies exclusively on Olive Sinistry. speaker-2: Simply visit www dot acstream dot com, create your free account, no subscription, no advertisement, and you can start watching immediately. speaker-0: And you you already talked about it or you already mentioned it that there's this outside look on narcissistic relationships of people saying, but why don't you leave or you should have left much earlier? Why would you say people stay in these relationships? So there's speaker-1: Several reasons. Many reasons actually. I think I once listed like forty. I'm not gonna give you forty. speaker-0: So there speaker-1: there is the traitor within, that's the one part of you that it will ignore behavior, but look the other way, make excuses. There's people who are empathetic, who will, you know, understand their child, especially the victim narcissist, the covert one. They may play that up. You know, my childhood was very difficult and tough, and I'm sorry when I react this way, I'll work on it. You know, and they use tactics like speaker-0: There is like speaker-1: future faking. So when you're ready to leave, and I think there's some sort of study where it's about seven times people will try to leave their relationships. speaker-0: just like speaker-1: They may future fake them. That's which is love bombing, but you know, it's sorry, I'm sorry, I'm gonna go to therapy, I'm gonna change, I'll do better. And then there's, you know, there's the tip there's speaker-0: Look they're speaker-1: the ones that happen in every relationship, you know, there's financial reasons, post when people leave speaker-0: There's if there's speaker-1: post separation abuse, which sometimes is worse, believe it or not, than being in it. So people fear the post separation abuse. speaker-0: Yes. speaker-1: there and then there's the trauma bond. And the trauma bond where you're really almost addicted to hope. speaker-0: But they're be able do it. speaker-1: I'll give you every once in a while. I call a crumb or a carrot. speaker-0: That will make you feel like a quality to this. speaker-1: There's a chance we'll get back to the way it was. And there is an addictive there's a biochemical quality to this. And then there's soci society, you speaker-0: Ivy. speaker-1: know, don't get divorced, you've got kids, or you have, you know, or religious reasons because or or family reasons, like your family norms. No one gets divorced in this family if it's a marriage. And and what's really important too is that the outside world never sees what's going on inside the relationship. So you're not getting the support of people. It is often that the narcissist speaker-0: will have will be already you your your speaker-1: telling other people bad things about you. So you're not gonna get that support. and people may turn on you and you may think again, you know, the the traitor within you are crazy. speaker-0: Crazy. speaker-1: You're too sensitive. What's happening here isn't really happening. There's gaslighting. And I can go on and on and on. There's so many reasons. But a narcissist, particularly one that, you know, is a malignant narcissist, you're you they're they're puppeting you, you know, and they're manipulating you. And it's speaker-0: Just it's to go. speaker-1: not easy to proven by the times where many t people will try and come back and try and come back and try and come back. And it's conscious and unconscious manipulation by the narcissist that will go on even after. speaker-2: very interesting and that's make it in a way to better understand that anyone can can that that it can happen to anyone. Because for example, to yourself and to the experts that we have in the movie, Dr. Romani, Dr. Kerry McAvoy, Lisa Sani and the and the and the other experts that we have, you all are intelligent people and it happened to you so. So is it possible that intelligence actually makes someone more vulnerable v vulnerable to manipulation? speaker-0: So I speaker-1: I think that intelligence and empathy does because the more you understand their wounds, the more you understand, the more you feel for them, the more they can all especially psychologically, if you understand psychologically, the more you may want to be there to help them. It may actually draw you in more so. But my hope is speaker-0: is speaker-1: that the more we speaker-0: teach the s the tactics of speaker-1: the narcissist. And then the more we do work on ourselves, because you can't have one. You know, I think that knowledge is our superpower. So you absolutely have to know all this that we are all teaching. But you also have to work on yourselves too and understand. And and honestly, you're also going through a withdrawal period. I think the worst thing you can do is if in regard to dating or speaker-0: Start dating quickly. speaker-1: you need to I think Dr. Romini spoke about a year. You need to have after depending on speaker-0: because you need to heal, you need to grieve. speaker-1: You know, there's a whole grieving process that should happen. And I had the psych knowledge. Yes, I did have the same words that we have now, you know, g gaslighting and gaslight and love bombing and and all the things that we know now terms, but I had a good understanding. I mean, I was helping couples, right? I was helping po I would speaker-0: It was healthy. speaker-1: the in every single way and the that you speaker-0: people spoke about, I know they were as well. speaker-1: And even in between relationships, the small amount of time I had in between relationships I was really speaker-0: So it it's little speaker-1: Doesn't matter. You can walk in being great and happy and fulfilled in every other way, and they could still manipulate. speaker-0: Thank you. speaker-2: You mentioned that we should also work on ourselves, right? So how do we stop abandoning ourselves? speaker-1: When a person abandons themselves in a relationship like speaker-0: this. They they do so by they're speaker-1: not taking care of their needs at all. They're comp this can happen even in a healthy relationship, right? A relatively healthy one. When someone abandons their needs, they sacrifice their their wants and desires are in order to make the other person happy. speaker-0: Which is speaker-1: o a wonderful thing to want to make the other person happy, you just shouldn't sacrifice self. And I think a lot of people in narcissistic relationships lose themselves. And so and that's self-abandonment. It's self-abandonment to be abused, to and now again, you're being manipulated. So I'm not blaming the victim. I'm being very clear. But if you're in a relationship being speaker-0: You're used. speaker-1: if you're in a relationship where you're no longer yourself, if you're in a relationship where dreams speaker-0: You had all these speaker-1: and hope. speaker-0: for the for yourself, you speaker-1: I don't know, wanted to spend time with your friend. Well, all this stuff is all gone. That's all self-abandonment. The most the healthiest relationships are ones where you nurture each other and you make a safe both parties to speaker-0: Place for speaker-1: fly, just like a parent would for a kid, right? in order you do you want you encourage, you want the other person to be self speaker-0: Be the best self. speaker-1: as they can. And then you come together and you join together as well. But it's giving, you know, the other person a chance to be themselves. And I think many people in these relationships, if not almost everybody, lose themselves. speaker-0: And when you then are in a place where you feel like I gave up my needs, I don't really f know what my needs are anymore, how do you reconnect to that? speaker-1: Well the first two make as h high of a boundary as you can with that person. And that all depends on do you have children, do you not have children? Only because you need they're around they could still draw you back in. Even if they're not physically doing it, your head is there. The healing process you need to grieve. And often what people do speaker-0: But the grieve after these relationships is they grieve speaker-1: the person that they lost. They the the one that abandoned themselves. They grieve And this is a hard one. They weren't loved because a narcissist doesn't love like we you know, like others love. You speaker-0: They they speaker-1: know, it's what what can that person do for me? That's their love. You know, what can what can they get from that person? That's not love. They agree the person they thought they knew. speaker-0: They grieve the speaker-1: lost self, as I said, the lost time. I mean people some people are together, you know these whole thing with grade divorce now. People are maybe married speaker-0: Thirty, forty years. speaker-1: and they lost a chunk of time. and so vital. Anyone that skips speaker-0: So that grief is that grief really does it. speaker-1: Disservice to themselves. And then they're it's a new normal. Spend a lot of time, you know, trying new things or rediscovering old things, things that have nothing to do with that other person. Surround yourself by loving, compassionate, nonjudgmental, empathetic souls that understand the trauma and abuse you've been through. To judge speaker-0: That's not gonna speaker-1: you, that's just gonna be there and listen. Professional help is and take the time to just speaker-0: What would you say is one thing that every person can be a survivor or it could be somebody that's newly discovering this topic? What's one thing that this person that's listening deserves to hear today? speaker-1: I see you. Telling always can heal. It's never too late. speaker-0: I speaker-1: And you could be the smartest, most incredible soul in the world. You could still get manipulated by a narcissist. speaker-2: From all con the the whole conversation that we had until now, I'm I'm thinking thinking about my territory and my intuition that are fighting the whole time every day, every second, about to say it about how we can how we can make it silent and get con control over it. I'm saying and I'm remembering that yes, that's possible if if we work on ourselves consistently we could take control over the territory routine that we have and make it quieter, let's say. but whenever I'm I'm thinking about my territory routine I'm wondering what's the biggest lie that our territory routine tells us. speaker-0: Well you believe that the truth speaker-1: trader within has your best interest. And but I want to be clear again, it thinks it does. It's misguided. I don't look at the trader as being this evil being. Part of you wants speaker-0: It's actually a party that's speaker-1: to help. But the biggest lie is it doesn't know how that you're believing it's it's that friend that you just you just do. I mean I've had them, I don't know about you, but I've had friends that I followed their advice and their advice was wrong because they're coming from a place, speaker-0: That was speaker-1: you know, their stuff, right? speaker-0: So it's the biggest lie is lie. speaker-1: is is not on purpose. But the biggest lie is that don't trust them anymore because they don't they have the they want speaker-0: They they speaker-1: to have your best interest, but they don't have your best interest anymore. speaker-0: And then it's also about finding your own strength of making your own decisions, right? Like you can you can take this advice, you can listen to it, but then also decide, but this is not right for me today. speaker-1: That's right. And you know what? Every once in a while the trader may give good advice. Like it may work. What doesn't work in a romantic relationship may actually help you at work, you know? So it's not that particular speaker-0: particular speaker-1: piece of information is always self-sabotaging. It's about taking control of your own life, making choices now and stepping out and listening to that voice and saying, It's gonna work here, it's not gonna work here. It's only a trader when you're self-sabotaging. It's speaker-0: So it's speaker-1: trusting yourself now to be able to make the choice. And not just to go along with the trader. speaker-0: And how would you describe the difference between the traitor within and fear? 'Cause like sometimes it sounds like it could also just be fear. Well speaker-1: Fear can make the trader come out, but the trader is actually the voice or what it makes you speaker-0: Do what you speaker-1: are doing. But yes, anxiety. speaker-0: So I see w speaker-1: Maybe you're saying, so if someone becomes fearful say they're dating and it's a good person, but their traitor says this is not a good pro so that's maybe what you're saying. So okay, you're dating someone and it's actually a good, honest, compassionate soul. speaker-0: But your trader is scared for you. Okay. But speaker-1: And so the trader says, No, I see something there that isn't there necessarily and I'm out of here. That's when the trader within could do th because of fear. So again, speaker-0: So that's speaker-1: it's about sitting back and saying, okay, running speaker-0: If I keep speaker-1: from good relationships and good people. Then to say maybe something is speaker-0: I have to is speaker-1: is within me that I need to work on. So let me sit down and say, what did that person trigger in me? What suddenly made me think that this person is too scared for me. speaker-0: Or is it few speaker-1: because I don't want to get close, because I fear my own, you know, intimacy or it's it's again, it's a chance to examine yourself. Examine why you're thinking what you're thinking. speaker-2: Can we forgive ourselves for the years we abandoned ourselves? speaker-1: Honestly, that's a personal choice, or a personal, you know, part of your childhood speaker-0: It's part of the speaker-1: make you feel guilty to forgive yourself, just like we feel guilty to have boundaries, you know, because we were taught in our childhood that forgiveness. So that's something that you question. I hope forgive yourself. speaker-0: Because I believe that whatever you know y whatever speaker-1: Whatever you were doing, you personally or anyone else, was doing it because you thought you were doing the right thing. It's what you speaker-0: You were taught it's what you it felt. I hope you speaker-1: You do. I mean it's it's not I don't others and Romini will talk about that, but I hope came out of past and your child and you learn it's all about this moment forward, right? speaker-0: Right. We are who we are. speaker-1: every single thing that happened to you. Some people will say, even in the womb, I believe that, because if you're a mother speaker-0: Do you have a a mother? speaker-1: who's very unhappy or whatever, you're gonna feel something. So let's just say at least since birth, every single thing that happened to you at that moment till now, and maybe previous lives, which I also believe, are today. speaker-0: make you who you are. So I hope there's forgiveness for all of it 'cause speaker-1: A lot of it's not your control, especially when you're a child. speaker-2: Amazing. So we are moving slowly towards the end of this episode. at the end of the episode we have very, very interesting specific questions and discussions always. The first question that I'd like to ask you, Jessica, is if someone is listening today and this person keeps hearing a voice saying, You are not enough. No one else will love you. Don't leave. It's your fault. What would you like to say directly to that person? speaker-1: What I'd like to do is hug them and say, You are enough. You are worthy. if this is a dangerous situation emotionally or physically, get out. You know, I'd like to say all those things. Okay, but we you know, we c I can't do that, obviously. But I speaker-0: Thank you. speaker-1: would like them to look within themselves and figure out where this voice is coming from. You know, where did it begin? we don't just wake up and and think like that. We had to have heard it from a parent or a teacher, because speaker-0: Or multiple people. speaker-1: often what happens is We learn it from in our childhood by someone important. And then someone else reinforces it. You know, you have then you've you somehow teachers telling you similar thing, or you take what they tell you is similar, and then you wind up in relationship after relationship that's telling you the same thing. So it's often more than one person, but you know, it's to look back at where does this speaker-0: Look and say where does speaker-1: come from? And then speaker-0: To speaker-1: have an understanding of that. And then to try to I I mean, I've loved journaling or telling a story to try to in and say it's true. Does this make sense? Or is this some inner voice speaker-0: That speaker-1: isn't true? I'm a good believer in therapy. you know, and to and self-nurturing and figure out are you in a relationship where someone is saying these things to you also and reinforcing it. Cause sometimes where we speaker-0: Feel is the right place to feel. speaker-1: place is simply because it feels like it felt previously, but it doesn't mean it's the right place. It doesn't like some people think it feels like home. Yeah, it felt like home, but home is abusive. It's kind of important to look out and look in effectively, and that's where story comes. That's where journaling comes and and try to work with someone who, again, professional and so hopefully speaker-0: is ideally appropriate there. speaker-1: affordable. speaker-2: And if someone who is listening and watching this pa this episode, if they remember only one thing from today's conversation, in your opinion, what should it be? speaker-1: One thing you're never stuck. speaker-2: Okay, Jessica, and my my last question that we repeat in every episode and we ask every guest at Beyond Our Stories. What's the one story or a movie or even a personal experience that changed the way you see people? speaker-0: Okay, so speaker-1: It's gonna be more of an understanding. Emerging from my most recent, which is already over ten years ago, narcissistic relationship and doing the work that speaker-0: I did. speaker-1: and then learning about a narcissist more you know, in in detail and more speaker-0: More detail over the years. speaker-1: It's an acceptance, which I don't like this, but it's the truth. An acceptance that not all people have their best interests. speaker-0: It was speaker-1: Very painful for me. I had it speaker-0: I would speaker-1: was I always believed in the best people. And I still do for most people, by the way. But there is an understanding with the narcissist. Again, even so they're wounded, and I understand why they do what they do. speaker-0: Do there are people that have speaker-1: completely lack empathy and do want harm for others. And so speaker-0: So that is speaker-1: very difficult for me and very painful acceptance of speaker-0: But that extent of that was where a lot where there was speaker-1: a lot of of change in my and sadness. And that's relatively recent, by the way, year just like a few years ago. This speaker-2: Thank you so much for being here today. This has been such an honest and thoughtful conversation. We think you've reminded us that healing doesn't begin when someone else changes. It begins when we start listening to ourselves again. Thank you for for sharing your thoughts, your experiences and everything for today's conversation. If people want to get in touch with you, want to read about you, listen listen to you, or watch your contents, how they can find you the best. speaker-1: Probably the easiest thing to do is Jessicaan Pressler speaker-0: is go to J speaker-1: dot com, which has links to everything, but all social media is Jessica Ann Pressler, and it's Anne with an easy. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-2: Amazing. Thank you everyone who joined us for this episode of Beyond Our Stories. If today's conversation resonated with you, we'd encourage you to continue the journey by watching I Love You, My Narcissus on Alex Nesu. speaker-0: You can watch I Love You My Narcissist along with many other carefully curated movies from all over the world by visiting acream dot com. And if you enjoyed today's episode, we'd really appreciate it if you followed the podcast, left a review, and shared this conversation with someone who might need to hear it. speaker-2: Every story begins on the screen, but it continues between us. Thank you for joining us and we'll see you next time on Beyond Our Stories.