Latest / Math Therapy / Anxious about math? You may be the best person to teach it w/ Heidi Sabnani

Transcript

Anxious about math? You may be the best person to teach it w/ Heidi Sabnani · Math Therapy

• 0:03
  Heidi Sabnani: I will still walk into spaces where I'm like, I don't know that I should be here, Someone made me feel a certain kind of way about it, but done the work, I'm here, none of us have arrived.
• 0:12
  Heidi Sabnani: We're all working on things.
• 0:13
  Heidi Sabnani: give yourself some time and space in that moment and you can do the thing.
• 0:18
  Heidi Sabnani: give yourself some time.
• 0:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Hello and welcome to this week's episode of Math Therapy.
• 0:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: All right.
• 0:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: I first discovered today's guest, Heidi Sabnani, at my very first international math education conference, when I saw her name on the program next to a talk description that had the words math anxiety in it.
• 0:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: It was the first time I was like, oh my God, there are other people who care about this stuff.
• 0:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, little did I know Heidi Sabnani has cared about this stuff for a long time.
• 0:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: In fact, she's cared about it ever since she developed math anxiety herself as a young student, and she decided to conquer it as an adult so she could help others never feel the way she did.
• 0:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Heidi has been an educator in math and literacy for over 25 years, and her superpower is coaching teachers on how to overcome their own math anxiety.
• 1:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: And in today's episode, she walks us through her exact process with a step-by-step playbook to help teachers transform.
• 1:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: We also discuss why so many of us develop math anxiety because of the way math is taught and how anyone can learn a better way regardless of how old you are or how gross you feel about math.
• 1:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now, before we get into the episode, I'm actually so excited to say these words because it's a first for Math Therapy, and I get to sound like a real deal professional celeb podcaster.
• 1:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: And because I manifested this.
• 1:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 1:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm nervous.
• 1:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Are you ready?
• 1:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Fine.
• 1:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 1:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Here we go.
• 1:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: This episode of Math Therapy is brought to you by Texas Instruments.
• 1:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: Ah, I did it.
• 1:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God.
• 1:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's true though, it's our first sponsored episode.
• 1:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like I know that might not be as exciting for you as it is for me, but first of all, that was as much fun to say as I thought it would be.
• 1:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: And second, if you know me, you know I have been a Texas Instruments girly since high school, so I can think of no other brand I'd wanna partner with first.
• 2:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: But even more exciting for you is that we're doing a giveaway right now and you can win an Oh My Math box featuring their brand new TI 84 Evo graphing calculator and some other goodies, including a plushie calculator key chain, which is literally just as cute as it sounds.
• 2:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: The TI 84 Evo is a graphing calculator for like today's classroom.
• 2:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: The best feature, is the new home screen, which is super intuitive and icon based, so you can see everything you need and like you're not digging around through menus to find features.
• 2:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: It kind of operates like a smartphone screen so it feels familiar and super friendly.
• 2:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: So to enter, all you have to do is text the podcast using the link in your app and tell me you want in on the TI giveaway.
• 2:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: Your entry has to be received by Tuesday, May 19th.
• 2:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'll randomly pick a winner and just like that, the new TI 84 Evo is yours.
• 2:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: I did it, my first sponsored message.
• 2:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 2:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now let's get to today's guest because that is just as exciting as the giveaway, I promise.
• 3:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Here is my chat with Heidi Sabnani.
• 3:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Heidi, welcome to the podcast.
• 3:08
  Heidi Sabnani: Thank you so much for having me.
• 3:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: I was having a memory of the first time I met you, so it was my first ever NCTM, so I think it was 2022.
• 3:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: It was in La, like it was gonna California.
• 3:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I remember looking through the program and I was like, oh my God, somebody's talking about math anxiety, I'm gonna go see it.
• 3:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: And what I remember distinctly, is that your presentation has so many GIFs in it.
• 3:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do we call it gif?
• 3:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Or a gif?
• 3:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't wanna start this debate, but what do you call it?
• 3:34
  Heidi Sabnani: GIF
• 3:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: God,
• 3:35
  Heidi Sabnani: it.
• 3:36
  Heidi Sabnani: But I mean, I
• 3:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: no.
• 3:37
  Heidi Sabnani: wrong.
• 3:38
  Heidi Sabnani: I mean, my, my teenagers are not here to tell me if it, is it gif or gif i, you know, I've said both.
• 3:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: okay.
• 3:45
  Heidi Sabnani: I'm from New England.
• 3:46
  Heidi Sabnani: We don't pronounce all our consonants, so
• 3:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Fine.
• 3:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yes.
• 3:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Tomato, tomato, gif, gif.
• 3:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: I remember it had all these funny, I'm gonna use your language'cause you're my guest, it had so many funny gifs on it.
• 3:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I was like, oh my God, this is so cool.
• 3:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I remember leaving being like, honestly, you were the first person.
• 4:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: I ever knew who was doing work on math anxiety.
• 4:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like I remember being like, oh my gosh, this is the first time I've heard somebody else talk about this in a similar way that I do.
• 4:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: So let's get into it.
• 4:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: When we do our talks, these are people who choose to go to a conference.
• 4:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: So that's like one level of math anxiety is the math anxiety where you're like, I know I'm anxious about math.
• 4:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: I wanna, you know, try and fix that.
• 4:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: But then there's a whole other level of so many folks who are like, I have deep anxiety about math and it's scary and I can't face it.
• 4:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: So we're not getting those people.
• 4:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I would love to know a little bit more about like.
• 4:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: What can we do?
• 4:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like if there's a coach, if there's a teacher, if there's a leader listening to this what are some interventions that you like, love?
• 4:44
  Heidi Sabnani: Yeah.
• 4:44
  Heidi Sabnani: and I'll put myself firmly in the camp of someone who
• 4:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Same.
• 4:48
  Heidi Sabnani: and like, I've shared the story
• 4:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Wait, share it now.
• 4:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: We don't all know the story.
• 4:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't know.
• 4:54
  Heidi Sabnani: Okay.
• 4:55
  Heidi Sabnani: So, have some mild dyscalculia and dyslexia.
• 5:00
  Heidi Sabnani: And a child in school, things were really, really challenging for me, particularly when I was in elementary school.
• 5:07
  Heidi Sabnani: And I, um, came into fourth grade and at the time, that was when we were learning multiplication facts and that they made no sense to me.
• 5:18
  Heidi Sabnani: And it was like this constant battle.
• 5:20
  Heidi Sabnani: And I had a teacher who, if I look back on it kindly now, like with the best possible of, of lenses, was doing what had been done for years.
• 5:31
  Heidi Sabnani: And it's like, you know, she divided the class into the kids who were bright and moving forward and to those of us who were not and weren't really as worthy of her time.
• 5:39
  Heidi Sabnani: Um,
• 5:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is the best possible lens everyone.
• 5:45
  Heidi Sabnani: Yes, this is the best possible ones.
• 5:46
  Heidi Sabnani: Um, but you know, but like what she know, right??
• 5:49
  Heidi Sabnani: Like what she knew how to do, and it's like, oh, if you have like this group of kids, it's super bright and like you should be pushing them and doing all the things.
• 5:56
  Heidi Sabnani: And my, um, situation was I had to stay in at recess every day to do more math work because I was so behind and, and all of those things in one day, I had had enough and I threw my work down and I went out to recess with all my friends and I remember her standing up at the top of the, playground, like screaming, Heidi Sabnani get back here.
• 6:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God.
• 6:19
  Heidi Sabnani: um, it was like a huge thing.
• 6:21
  Heidi Sabnani: my parents were mortified, there were all sorts of repercussions.
• 6:25
  Heidi Sabnani: My parents' response was like, we're gonna brute force this.
• 6:29
  Heidi Sabnani: We're going to like help you memorize and we're gonna work on this.
• 6:31
  Heidi Sabnani: And so I left that experience and thought that math was literally something to endure and something to memorize.
• 6:41
  Heidi Sabnani: And so we worked on memorizing tools to help me memorize things so that I wasn't switching numbers and, and letters made it even more interesting when we got in into those later times.
• 6:53
  Heidi Sabnani: And so my whole goal in high school was to take enough math so that I
• 6:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Hmm.
• 6:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Were you diagnosed with dyscalculia and dyslexia at that time, or
• 7:02
  Heidi Sabnani: No.
• 7:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: So you didn't even know, you were just like experiencing this thing and like you didn't know what was up.
• 7:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: You were just like, this is just making things hard.
• 7:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 7:10
  Heidi Sabnani: early, early
• 7:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 7:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yep, yep.
• 7:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yep.
• 7:12
  Heidi Sabnani: Unless it was like, you know, super severe needs within, you were, you were not getting any additonal support.
• 7:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: The way, I always say is one of the major causes of math trauma is having an undiagnosed learning difference and just feeling like there's something wrong with you and not being given the support that like exists.
• 7:28
  Heidi Sabnani: Yep.
• 7:29
  Heidi Sabnani: a hundred percent true.
• 7:29
  Heidi Sabnani: And so like, that was my whole thing.
• 7:31
  Heidi Sabnani: I went and, and chose a career that was not in math, not in stem, like literacy a hundred percent of the way.
• 7:39
  Heidi Sabnani: Fast forward a whole bunch of years.
• 7:41
  Heidi Sabnani: I'm working for the school improvement division, one of the divisions in Ohio.
• 7:46
  Heidi Sabnani: And I had a co-teacher who was gonna help support teachers in the school improvement on math.
• 7:52
  Heidi Sabnani: And I was gonna do literacy and it was gonna be this wonderful like, situation where we could work with adults.
• 7:57
  Heidi Sabnani: And I was so excited.
• 7:58
  Heidi Sabnani: And, um, she decided like six weeks in that she hated working with adults and quit.
• 8:05
  Heidi Sabnani: Boss was like, well, this is a grant funded position and we can't find anyone, so it's gonna be you.
• 8:10
  Heidi Sabnani: You're just gonna do both math and literacy.
• 8:12
  Heidi Sabnani: And I said, um, I'm so sorry.
• 8:15
  Heidi Sabnani: No, I have lived my entire life, like I'm in my thirties at this point, with the goal to avoid being in math classrooms.
• 8:22
  Heidi Sabnani: Like I'm not, I can't put myself through that stress.
• 8:24
  Heidi Sabnani: And she's like, oh, you're just gonna fake it till you make it like it's high school.
• 8:27
  Heidi Sabnani: It's primarily pedagogical needs that they have.
• 8:30
  Heidi Sabnani: And so you're gonna go in.
• 8:31
  Heidi Sabnani: So I would go into these classrooms and go into these meetings and be like, okay, so today we're gonna act like know nothing.
• 8:39
  Heidi Sabnani: And you're going to work with me like as if I'm a student.
• 8:43
  Heidi Sabnani: And then I would go into these classrooms and the kids would ask me questions and I'd be like, oh, what do you think about that?
• 8:47
  Heidi Sabnani: Like, talk me through your process or like, what tools do you have that
• 8:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 8:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Wait, so what, let me pause though.
• 8:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: When, when they're asking you questions, are you legitimately like, I actually don't know the answer.
• 8:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm not even acting right now.
• 8:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 8:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're method acting.
• 8:59
  Heidi Sabnani: yes, a hundred percent so at the end of that school year, the district and my boss came to me and they're like, you know, we felt this, this is went so well.
• 9:09
  Heidi Sabnani: people just really appreciate the fact that you're not like telling them exactly do this or that.
• 9:14
  Heidi Sabnani: You're asking kids questions or asking them to, and I was like, this is really backfiring on me.
• 9:21
  Heidi Sabnani: And so in that moment, I started looking for and started taking math classes again.
• 9:25
  Heidi Sabnani: And so I went back and I was like, if I'm gonna do this, if I'm gonna be in this space.
• 9:29
  Heidi Sabnani: And I, at that point, they were like, we'd also love you to go and work with the elementary schools and the teachers there.
• 9:34
  Heidi Sabnani: And I said, okay, if I'm gonna do that, I'm gonna.
• 9:38
  Heidi Sabnani: My experience, and I'm gonna reteach myself in the ways that I wish I had been taught.
• 9:43
  Heidi Sabnani: And so I looked for, like the Marilyn Burns and the all, all the things that have existed, but that I had did not seem to have access to because people have been doing this work.
• 9:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is kind of wild because this is so meta, right?
• 9:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is like the matrix or what's that movie?
• 9:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Inception, right?
• 10:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: With like all the, it's like there's so many layers here because it's like, now obviously we're gonna get to now in a second, but I'm thinking about how, where our conversation is about how to help teachers with their own math anxiety.
• 10:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you were that teacher basically, like you were that teacher with that math anxiety.
• 10:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're put in this role, which I almost feel as like exposure therapy.
• 10:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's basically like you're there, you're doing it through that somehow you get to the point where someone's like, Heidi, you know what?
• 10:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: This was actually awesome.
• 10:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: We want you to keep doing this.
• 10:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then you're like, okay, I'm gonna guess I'm gonna learn more math.
• 10:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: So my question is, at this point, are you scared of learning more math or are you feeling a bit confident because you've done a good job so far at whatever it is that you're doing?
• 10:39
  Heidi Sabnani: I was scared that I wasn't gonna be able to find the answers to the questions that I'd always.
• 10:43
  Heidi Sabnani: And I think that's the thing.
• 10:44
  Heidi Sabnani: One of the, one of the issues for me as a child learning was that really did wanna know why.
• 10:50
  Heidi Sabnani: I wanted to know like the, the reason behind things and why things work and if there were connections and like there were always clues, right?
• 10:58
  Heidi Sabnani: While my graduate work and things were, was in world literature, but I'm always looking for like the connecting points between literature from different countries around the world and like what themes are there.
• 11:08
  Heidi Sabnani: And like I love reading mysteries for like for fun.
• 11:11
  Heidi Sabnani: And so it was like this idea of like, I've always been pulling at those, those patterns and those pieces, but no one ever told me that was mathematical.
• 11:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: So like how did you then go from, so you're, you're here, you're like, I'm gonna learn the math, and then I guess somewhere along the line you're like, this is the work I'm gonna do.
• 11:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm gonna help teachers with their own anxiety around math.
• 11:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is that what happens?
• 11:30
  Heidi Sabnani: Yeah.
• 11:31
  Heidi Sabnani: it started out not, you know, in the beginning I was looking at it from a student lens and then.
• 11:35
  Heidi Sabnani: more I got into it, I was like, no.
• 11:37
  Heidi Sabnani: Like where I spend my time and the people who I have the most opportunities for impact are adult learners.
• 11:45
  Heidi Sabnani: And so I needed to switch that because adult learners are the ones who impact students.
• 11:50
  Heidi Sabnani: And so if I wanna make a big enough difference in like the student situation, like these teachers are going to have, you know, anywhere from 20 to 30 kids every year that they're impacting and that they're building these systems for.
• 12:02
  Heidi Sabnani: So if I want to impact the largest number of students, then I need to think about what am I doing to help their teachers?
• 12:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: There's so much like discourse out there around you know, how to mitigate math anxiety, and I'm curious how you feel about the idea that like the only way to help someone become less anxious around math is to like teach them more math.
• 12:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like what are the things you think really move the dial when it comes to a teacher's relationship with math?
• 12:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like what are your things where you're like, I'm gonna go in, someone hires you and they're like, Heidi, you've got six hours.
• 12:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like do, like, do make, do you make some sort of transformation happen?
• 12:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: What are your like go-to tools?
• 12:39
  Heidi Sabnani: So a couple of things.
• 12:40
  Heidi Sabnani: I ask, just as, as you've asked, I often ask teachers to give me their mathology.
• 12:46
  Heidi Sabnani: Their biography of how they've experienced math and what their situation is.
• 12:49
  Heidi Sabnani: Because I think that's so critical to really understanding where people are coming from.
• 12:53
  Heidi Sabnani: And asking them like, what is your goal for this work that we're about to do?
• 12:59
  Heidi Sabnani: Is it so that you can help your high schooler as a parent?
• 13:03
  Heidi Sabnani: Or is it so that you can have a deeper understanding of the mathematics that you are teaching in your classroom?
• 13:08
  Heidi Sabnani: Because I think one of the things that we miss so often is the depth of the mathematics that we are asking young learners to learn.
• 13:18
  Heidi Sabnani: We treat it as building blocks to calculus or being mindset or whatever it is, and I'm like, no, the math that these children are learning is deep and interconnected and, and they should have time and space to really learn that, right?
• 13:38
  Heidi Sabnani: So then how do we help teachers have that same experience?
• 13:43
  Heidi Sabnani: So when I go in, it is not like I am not ever giving my elementary school teachers algebra, calculus problems to do.
• 13:52
  Heidi Sabnani: And I know there are people who do that.
• 13:53
  Heidi Sabnani: They're like, oh, we just need to give them more math and, and have them work on challenging, like, no, I can also come up with things that are challenging and different ways of thinking about and learning things in the content that actually matters to them
• 14:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, okay.
• 14:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 14:08
  Heidi Sabnani: that they're gonna use immediately versus just like, okay, we're, we're gonna sit through and work.
• 14:14
  Heidi Sabnani: No one's gonna wanna come to your.
• 14:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right.
• 14:18
  Heidi Sabnani: No.
• 14:19
  Heidi Sabnani: You know, like yes, when I work with teachers, we do math, we do, but it's meaningful math for what they're going to be doing
• 14:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: So you're.
• 14:29
  Heidi Sabnani: It's meaningful math
• 14:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: it's meaningful math.
• 14:32
  Heidi Sabnani: with their
• 14:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Meaningful math for what they're gonna do with their students so that they can understand it more in depth and feel more confident teaching their students like in the classroom.
• 14:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, so you're in there.
• 14:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: You've asked them for their math story, so they understand why they got there.
• 14:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: You've asked them for their goals of what they wanna get outta the session.
• 14:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now you're doing meaningful math.
• 14:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: What's next?
• 14:49
  Heidi Sabnani: So what structures do we have in coaching that we can leverage for working with teachers with math anxiety?
• 14:55
  Heidi Sabnani: If we really wanna work on how teachers are teaching mathematics, we have to focus on, okay, what's the thing that they're working on right now?
• 15:03
  Heidi Sabnani: So I have teachers that work with me.
• 15:05
  Heidi Sabnani: We are doing a problem that's what they're doing within the
• 15:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 15:10
  Heidi Sabnani: If they're not using it within the next week,
• 15:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Got it.
• 15:13
  Heidi Sabnani: it they have to have the opportunity to like feel like they're leaving with something in their toolbox.
• 15:19
  Heidi Sabnani: So we do that kind of content work and we think about like building a system for them that is gonna allow them to have the questions that they often are so amazing at.
• 15:33
  Heidi Sabnani: So I will go in and work with them in their literacy classrooms and take notes of all the questions that they asked, and then we'll sit down and say, okay, like what questions here can you also use in
• 15:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, gimme an example.
• 15:47
  Heidi Sabnani: So what might happen next?
• 15:50
  Heidi Sabnani: What?
• 15:50
  Heidi Sabnani: What
• 15:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh,
• 15:52
  Heidi Sabnani: in this piece
• 15:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: so you're saying like the,
• 15:54
  Heidi Sabnani: that you
• 15:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: The teachers are already really good at asking these types of questions.
• 15:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: They just dunno how to translate that skill they already have into a math class.
• 16:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my god, I love this.
• 16:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 16:04
  Heidi Sabnani: So I'm like, okay,
• 16:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right.
• 16:07
  Heidi Sabnani: but you just do it in literacy and why are you doing it in literacy?
• 16:10
  Heidi Sabnani: And they're like, well, I feel comfortable with if a student says something that I'm not sure about, like I have the tools to go back to.
• 16:16
  Heidi Sabnani: I'm like, okay, so what is it gonna take for you to feel that same way if you were to ask that question
• 16:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 16:24
  Heidi Sabnani: What do you think happiness or what might you do next?
• 16:27
  Heidi Sabnani: And if the kid says something that they don't understand, I'm like, okay, so like what do you do when you're asking that question literacy?
• 16:35
  Heidi Sabnani: Well, then I ask them a follow up question.
• 16:36
  Heidi Sabnani: I ask them, could you explain your thinking?
• 16:39
  Heidi Sabnani: Can we draw out what you think might happen.
• 16:41
  Heidi Sabnani: So you can understand, because I mean little children sometimes are not the clearest communicators.
• 16:46
  Heidi Sabnani: And so like how do we help them with that?
• 16:49
  Heidi Sabnani: And so we have those conversations of how to build in those pieces.
• 16:54
  Heidi Sabnani: And then we work the math, that's gonna help them feel comfortable answering those types of questions or asking for more depth in those moments.
• 17:04
  Heidi Sabnani: So it's like this cycle that happens.
• 17:07
  Heidi Sabnani: Um, and so when I work with coaches and that, I'm like teaching them like how to.
• 17:13
  Heidi Sabnani: Conduct meetings in that way, you have to have a different lens than the lens that we have when we're strictly just coaching the math anxiety piece, because we're often coaching then for like, okay, we have to get through this.
• 17:26
  Heidi Sabnani: We have to do this.
• 17:26
  Heidi Sabnani: I'm held to the fire for this, like for us to be at this point in the pacing,
• 17:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: I really, really like this approach.
• 17:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: It kind of feels like it's like multi-pronged and there's like a bit of a holistic thing of like, number one, we're hearing where you're coming from, like what your anxieties are, what story you're coming from.
• 17:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Number two, what your goals are.
• 17:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Number three, we're gonna go through a math concept that you've gotta teach that you need to get more confidence in.
• 17:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Number four, we're gonna take skills you're already using in other domains, and we're gonna just figure out how to apply them to math class and what you need to do that confidently.
• 17:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Am I right?
• 17:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Am I getting this right?
• 17:56
  Heidi Sabnani: Yeah.
• 17:57
  Heidi Sabnani: And then we, the last thing, we really reflect on it.
• 18:00
  Heidi Sabnani: So writing has been shown, like even if you are like before a test, and it's one of the things that I've said to kids and I like, Howie gives the five minutes before where they could look at the test.
• 18:10
  Heidi Sabnani: Other times you just have kids do a brain dump of, okay, what do you know?
• 18:15
  Heidi Sabnani: What are you worried about?
• 18:16
  Heidi Sabnani: What do you like?
• 18:16
  Heidi Sabnani: Get all the
• 18:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: I need to do that right now.
• 18:19
  Heidi Sabnani: and then they can focus on.
• 18:21
  Heidi Sabnani: Then they could focus on the thing that they're about to do.
• 18:24
  Heidi Sabnani: Right.
• 18:25
  Heidi Sabnani: So it's, it's very different.
• 18:26
  Heidi Sabnani: Like, just think about it.
• 18:27
  Heidi Sabnani: I mean, I have like a list here on my table of all the things that I, I have a senior, like all the things that we need to do, like we order the prom dress check, like the, like all the, all the
• 18:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right.
• 18:37
  Heidi Sabnani: Like, so that it doesn't have to sit in my mind.
• 18:40
  Heidi Sabnani: We can do that same thing with teachers.
• 18:41
  Heidi Sabnani: Okay.
• 18:41
  Heidi Sabnani: So we've done this work now where we're gonna reflect on it and then we're gonna check back in, in the next cycle to see how you're doing.
• 18:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: So my question, so I love this.
• 18:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: So wait, when do they do the brain dump?
• 18:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: When am I doing the brain dump?
• 18:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, does this happen every day?
• 18:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Does it happen at the end of the session?
• 18:56
  Heidi Sabnani: So, yeah, at the end of the
• 18:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 18:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: At the end of the session they're like, okay, all here's all this stuff I've gotta get outta my mind.
• 19:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: So what are some things they might write on that piece of paper that you've seen people write?
• 19:06
  Heidi Sabnani: So sometimes it's like, I don't like open number lines,
• 19:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh.
• 19:11
  Heidi Sabnani: but like I've been working on that with Heidi and so like what is the question that I can ask?
• 19:16
  Heidi Sabnani: Like they'll look at a problem that they have coming up.
• 19:18
  Heidi Sabnani: Let me just sketch out what that might be.
• 19:20
  Heidi Sabnani: I'm gonna sketch out an idea of how I could record student think on a number line.
• 19:23
  Heidi Sabnani: I know I don't like using it, that's one of the things I wanna get better at.
• 19:27
  Heidi Sabnani: So they will like put that down.
• 19:29
  Heidi Sabnani: They'll put like, okay, remember to pause and think.
• 19:31
  Heidi Sabnani: You don't have to answer a kid's within the first half,
• 19:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: So this brain dump is like things I'm concerned about, plus solutions that I can use in the moment.
• 19:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I have on my piece of paper all of my concerns and kind of a fix for them that I can carry around with me.
• 19:48
  Heidi Sabnani: Yes.
• 19:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: My question is, so I love this.
• 19:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: My question is, you can't do this for every single problem they have to teach every single day.
• 19:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right.
• 19:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: So like it,
• 19:56
  Heidi Sabnani: correct.
• 19:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: the, what is the long-term plan here?
• 19:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because this sounds like this is the best day ever.
• 20:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: And like you would leave being like, all right, I'm ready to teach my next lesson.
• 20:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: I've got a plan, I've, whatever.
• 20:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: How does this translate into like them feeling more confident every single day?
• 20:10
  Heidi Sabnani: So I like to plan at least weekly.
• 20:14
  Heidi Sabnani: So like we're gonna plan a chunk of the week, so we look at, okay, what's the story of the math that we're doing over this, this time period?
• 20:21
  Heidi Sabnani: And so part of that is like, you're gonna do that with me, but I'm also trying to build systems each do that with each other.
• 20:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: I love that.
• 20:30
  Heidi Sabnani: Because at some point, funding may go away.
• 20:32
  Heidi Sabnani: I will not be there.
• 20:33
  Heidi Sabnani: Funding may go away.
• 20:34
  Heidi Sabnani: Their coach may not be there.
• 20:35
  Heidi Sabnani: What systems are you building
• 20:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mm-hmm.
• 20:38
  Heidi Sabnani: Because even if you can do this same process, even if I'm not there, I mean like, please hire me, I'll come but it's that idea of you can also build this system yourself.
• 20:50
  Heidi Sabnani: And if you're an administrator, like administrators run into the same thing, they'll come in and they'll be like, oh, we're so glad you're here because we don't know what to do with the math.
• 20:57
  Heidi Sabnani: And I'm like, how are you, how are you communicating that with your teachers?
• 21:03
  Heidi Sabnani: does that feel like for you?
• 21:05
  Heidi Sabnani: How do you feel when you need to go in and give them feedback on their math lessons?
• 21:08
  Heidi Sabnani: Do you know?
• 21:09
  Heidi Sabnani: So like it, it's this bigger system that we deal with that how are we like refocusing those structures?
• 21:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: okay, I love all of this and I'm thinking about those teachers who I really believe, like, you know, there's so much discourse right now around being like, oh, teachers don't wanna change.
• 21:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: They just wanna keep like teaching the way they've always been teaching.
• 21:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I really believe, and I'm curious what you think, I believe that most people who are in that mindset are scared.
• 21:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like they, I don't believe that people are just like, I'm the best.
• 21:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: I know.
• 21:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: I mean, I'm, I'm sure some people think that what they're doing is working.
• 21:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm actually sure that some people have seen evidence that what they're doing is working.
• 21:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 21:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like I'm sure a lot of teachers are like, yes, I've been using the algorithm and, and using formulas and stuff, and kids understand it.
• 21:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: I do think that most teachers are very well-meaning and being like, I don't really see the problem.
• 21:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's working.
• 21:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then other teachers are just, you know, I think there's a piece of it where they're like, I'm scared to try this new thing.
• 22:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: And they're probably scared because they're, they have their own anxiety around math.
• 22:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: So like in given that case, I'm sure you encounter all the time teachers who are like, I don't want to try doing it this new way.
• 22:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: What is your move there?
• 22:14
  Heidi Sabnani: So part of it is, i'll start back at the algorithm and I'll move back and kind of show the progression across grade levels and I'll say like, where is your grade level?
• 22:23
  Heidi Sabnani: And then I say like, okay, considering your students, which of these ways think about the students that you have?
• 22:29
  Heidi Sabnani: Because our teachers do know their students, do care about their students, they do want them to do well.
• 22:36
  Heidi Sabnani: So will look at that and say like, oh, like this picture would really help them.
• 22:42
  Heidi Sabnani: I don't necessarily understand how to use that picture.
• 22:45
  Heidi Sabnani: Can you help me with that?
• 22:47
  Heidi Sabnani: So like, they begin to notice that because we've made connecting points to the thing that they've memorized and know how to do to the things that come before.
• 22:56
  Heidi Sabnani: But that takes time.
• 22:57
  Heidi Sabnani: Like that's, that's like a PD day where we're doing a really deep dive into it, not just like a five minute conversation.
• 23:05
  Heidi Sabnani: And I, I think that's the, the balancing point that we have to think about is like what opportunities we're providing our students with that.
• 23:11
  Heidi Sabnani: I had a, at the beginning of the school year where like that happened.
• 23:16
  Heidi Sabnani: I had like shown a, a progression and a teacher, like literally like threw her stuff and she's like, this, this is the why I've been so reticent to teach with in this way is because I didn't know this.
• 23:29
  Heidi Sabnani: Now that I know, like that's why I'm afraid.
• 23:33
  Heidi Sabnani: She was like, I didn't understand the connection between the two.
• 23:37
  Heidi Sabnani: And it's like sometimes it's just helping teachers see that.
• 23:40
  Heidi Sabnani: And saying like, you, you learned that way, like that works for you.
• 23:45
  Heidi Sabnani: Is it working for all your students?
• 23:46
  Heidi Sabnani: Because that's probably not.
• 23:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, I think it's so crazy because it's like, what I'm really hearing in this conversation, and I, you're not the first person who said this, but you're, you're really illustrating it, is like the key is giving the teacher who has their anxiety around math, a mathematical experience where they get to experience math in a different way and then have this moment of like, oh my God, that felt really good for me.
• 24:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: I would like to do this for my students, now I know that it's possible.
• 24:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: But how crazy is it that the whole system of where this can happen is not at teachers college.
• 24:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: It has to be this completely separate thing that happens in the field when teachers are already teaching.
• 24:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like I'm just kind of like, why?
• 24:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like does this not seem a bit wild to you?
• 24:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: And is like dependent on funding?
• 24:36
  Heidi Sabnani: It is.
• 24:36
  Heidi Sabnani: It is.
• 24:37
  Heidi Sabnani: And like I will say, there are definitely spaces in pre-service teacher work where people are doing work with.
• 24:45
  Heidi Sabnani: pre-service teachers with math anxiety like that is happening, but it's pockets, it's not like a consistent part.
• 24:51
  Heidi Sabnani: We don't have here in the us and I don't know if
• 24:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: We don't.
• 24:54
  Heidi Sabnani: there's not like a
• 24:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Absolutely not.
• 24:56
  Heidi Sabnani: of math, like classes you need to take, you
• 25:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: No.
• 25:00
  Heidi Sabnani: You get into, you know, like all of those things.
• 25:04
  Heidi Sabnani: We, we don't have a, like any kind of systematic way of like saying Okay, as a educator of pre-service teachers, I'm gonna make sure these things happen.
• 25:13
  Heidi Sabnani: It's very much dependent on who you get.
• 25:16
  Heidi Sabnani: And so then we have,
• 25:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: Which is kind of crazy.
• 25:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like think about it, if you went to med school, there's like a standardized thing of things you need to learn.
• 25:24
  Heidi Sabnani: Yes, yes.
• 25:27
  Heidi Sabnani: And, and then like, or we'll ask elementary school teachers to take calculus three on their assessment to get certification.
• 25:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: What.
• 25:39
  Heidi Sabnani: Like, but they're gonna be teaching second grade.
• 25:42
  Heidi Sabnani: that's not the necessary thing for them.
• 25:45
  Heidi Sabnani: And so then we wonder like, oh, we have a teacher shortage.
• 25:48
  Heidi Sabnani: know.
• 25:48
  Heidi Sabnani: Well, maybe let's think about like what we're doing, what the, and I'm not saying there shouldn't be some levels of certification and like there should be, but like, it's this idea of like, are we actually assessing the right things.
• 25:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: it's like the idea of being like, oh, an elementary teacher will be more ready to teach math if they just learn more math in the way that they did not understand math.
• 26:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: no.
• 26:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like it'll make more sense if they learn the math that they're going to teach in a way that they finally understand.
• 26:14
  Heidi Sabnani: Exactly.
• 26:15
  Heidi Sabnani: And like with the tools that they're gonna need to be using in their classroom.
• 26:19
  Heidi Sabnani: I mean, it is.
• 26:20
  Heidi Sabnani: It is amazing.
• 26:22
  Heidi Sabnani: Even with my new teachers, how few of them ever experienced using manipulatives in their own school experience, in their teacher practicum
• 26:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm actually scared of manipulatives.
• 26:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do you know that?
• 26:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's my main fear in math.
• 26:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: I have no memory of ever using them as a child.
• 26:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: And anytime I go into an elementary PD and they start putting like those queasy air rods or whatever, the blocks, the arrays, I don't even know what, oh my God, are you gonna pull one out?
• 26:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God.
• 26:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like I have PTSD.
• 26:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like I can't even look at that little Ziploc baggie of colored things because I'm like, I don't know what to do with them.
• 26:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: And all the elementary teachers just start being like, oh yes, and now I've got 10 and now, and I'm like, I don't know what's happening right now.
• 26:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: So like, I get it.
• 27:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: I actually understand
• 27:02
  Heidi Sabnani: Yeah.
• 27:04
  Heidi Sabnani: Yeah.
• 27:04
  Heidi Sabnani: And like I have a, one of the coaches that, or an interventionist that I'm with right now, she's like, I get it out.
• 27:10
  Heidi Sabnani: She's like, I know my kids need to use this, but you, you need to work with me.
• 27:16
  Heidi Sabnani: I need to be more comfortable with this, she's like, because I'm not.
• 27:19
  Heidi Sabnani: I'm like, okay, we're gonna do that.
• 27:20
  Heidi Sabnani: not a problem.
• 27:21
  Heidi Sabnani: So it's just that way of thinking about it in a, in a different way and giving access
• 27:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's interesting because this conversation could have gone so many different ways, but what has really been at the forefront to me is, first of all, I love that you walked us through kind of like what a day looks like of how you can at least start the cycle of, of you know, how to approach a teacher with math, anxiety, and at least get a little movement through those five pieces of asking them their story, asking them their goals.
• 27:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Giving them a math experience, walking through'em through a meaningful problem that they're going to have to do with students.
• 27:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: having them transfer skills from literacy or something else else they're teaching into math class and then having them do that brain dump, right.
• 28:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: Of just being like, what are all the concerns that are gonna rise in the week?
• 28:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: 'cause that's a really nice cycle.
• 28:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: That you can kind of do with any math concept.
• 28:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I feel like if you do it over and over again, teachers start getting used to it.
• 28:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're right.
• 28:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: They can form their own like professional learning communities in their own schools.
• 28:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: They can help one another.
• 28:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I love that.
• 28:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: But also I think it's really important for us to know, there's two pieces that you pointed out, which is you give them the opportunity to talk about their anxieties and their story, and then you allow them to have an experience where they experience math a little bit differently and.
• 28:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's cool because those things go hand in hand, right?
• 28:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: It kind of shows us that like, like I always talk about, believe, behave, become, and how it's important to address beliefs, but it's also important to give teachers or whoever the learner is, a new experience, a new behavior, so they can see those beliefs like actually come to action.
• 28:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, I think you illustrated that really, really nicely, and everyone should obviously hire you to come into their schools and transform their environments.
• 29:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it's cool because you are doing this work and you're, you're kind of proving to all of us that your relationship with math, regardless of your age, does not have to stay the same.
• 29:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: There's one more thing I actually really wanna know your opinion on.
• 29:12
  Heidi Sabnani: Yep.
• 29:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: know how there's always these articles that come out being like, teacher math, anxiety is contagious, and like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 29:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: What would you say to the teacher who's like, I'm really worried that I'm like infecting my students with my math anxiety.
• 29:26
  Heidi Sabnani: Interestingly enough, one, one of the teachers who participated in my doctoral research, that was her whole motivation for saying yes.
• 29:36
  Heidi Sabnani: She was a, she's an amazing teacher.
• 29:40
  Heidi Sabnani: And she was noticing that she had kids in her classroom who always needed to go to the nurse or the bathroom every time they got to math.
• 29:47
  Heidi Sabnani: she was like, and I am afraid that my reticence is transferring.
• 29:54
  Heidi Sabnani: And so with her, this is where we started with literacy,'cause she was like an amazing literacy teacher.
• 30:02
  Heidi Sabnani: I said like, you're just not using those skills that you have there.
• 30:06
  Heidi Sabnani: So let's start transferring those over.
• 30:08
  Heidi Sabnani: Let's start transferring those questions.
• 30:09
  Heidi Sabnani: Let's start like giving yourself some time to breathe.
• 30:12
  Heidi Sabnani: I think that the research shows that teachers with math anxiety spend 50% less time teaching math, and they teach in ways that are rote and are based on memorization speed.
• 30:26
  Heidi Sabnani: So if we look at just those two things, less time teaching and speed and memorization, we know that, that those two things, having less time to work on something and being forced to memorize it, some of the major underlying foundations of math anxiety.
• 30:47
  Heidi Sabnani: So it's a result, not necessarily, I, I don't think it's like the intent, I think like it becomes because of those, those two factors.
• 31:00
  Heidi Sabnani: Uh, I don't think it's contagious.
• 31:03
  Heidi Sabnani: I do think that mindsets be contagious.
• 31:08
  Heidi Sabnani: You know, if you, if you're ever around someone who's like super negative about something like that, that begins to permeate, right?
• 31:14
  Heidi Sabnani: Or you have someone who's, who's always like, really excited about every brand new day and what, like those things are contagious.
• 31:21
  Heidi Sabnani: And so we have to think about and just be mindful of what is our thinking and how we, um, create, what is our mindset when we go into that.
• 31:33
  Heidi Sabnani: But I think that through that reflection piece.
• 31:37
  Heidi Sabnani: And through the pointing out the things that they're really good at already, they're like, you are really good at this.
• 31:42
  Heidi Sabnani: You do have the skills to do this, and then let's reflect and brain dump on it.
• 31:46
  Heidi Sabnani: So then you're not thinking about those things when you're going in
• 31:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: I really think that's so awesome how you said that.
• 31:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: And like I wonder if, like, this is what I always say and I'm curious what your thoughts are on it.
• 31:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm like, your mindset is one thing, right?
• 31:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, so I actually like your example of being like, imagine a really a negative person or whatever, right?
• 32:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: Your mindset is one thing.
• 32:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: I just actually am reading the new Lena Dunham book, which seems like it would not be related to this conversation, but it is because she says that her father always says something like, there's no such thing as a bad thought there, it's it, there's no such thing as a negative thought, there is such a thing as a negative action.
• 32:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like often we can't help our thoughts, we're working on them, whatever.
• 32:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: But what you do with your thoughts is what matters.
• 32:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: So like your mindset is one thing, like you being like, Ugh, I really don't think I'm a math person, is one thing.
• 32:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: But then the action you take as a result, so the action might be teaching less math or refusing to teach, you know, change the way you teach.
• 32:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Or expressing to the classroom, I hate math, I was born with a math deficiency.
• 32:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like that action is the thing that actually has the effect.
• 32:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: So even if you're listening to this and you're like, oh, but I do have a negative mindset around math.
• 32:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: If you're reflective on that, like Heidi says, and you pick your action with thoughtfulness, for example, saying to your class, you know what guys, like, I do have a bad attitude around math, but it's something I've developed, it's not something I'm born with and I'm working on it.
• 32:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: 'cause I know it's not like, me, you know, I wanna, whatever that, ultimately it is the believe, behave, become in a way, but do you, do you agree?
• 33:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, it's like kind of the way you the action you take as a result of your mindset is the actual piece that matters.
• 33:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: And obviously we want you to change your mindset, but in the process of doing that, as long as you take thoughtfully aligned action, it's okay for you to not feel so great about math.
• 33:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're not like.
• 33:21
  Heidi Sabnani: Yes.
• 33:23
  Heidi Sabnani: I mean, and, and.
• 33:23
  Heidi Sabnani: It will change from day to day.
• 33:25
  Heidi Sabnani: I will walk into spaces sometimes even now or someone will have something and I'm like, it just freaks me out.
• 33:30
  Heidi Sabnani: And I'm like okay I need to pause and and Or like some ridiculous problem.
• 33:35
  Heidi Sabnani: I remember being in a session with.
• 33:39
  Heidi Sabnani: It was a regional, teachers of mathematics thing and someone who like I really respect, like put this problem up on the board.
• 33:47
  Heidi Sabnani: And I was there with some teachers I worked with and I was like, oh, my word.
• 33:53
  Heidi Sabnani: Like gross, like what is that?
• 33:56
  Heidi Sabnani: Like?
• 33:56
  Heidi Sabnani: And, and I don't
• 33:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right.
• 33:57
  Heidi Sabnani: that.
• 33:58
  Heidi Sabnani: And I'm here with like teachers that I work with and now they're gonna see me and, and know that I like, am not unsure about how to do this.
• 34:04
  Heidi Sabnani: I was sitting next to Molly and Molly was like, that problem's disgusting.
• 34:07
  Heidi Sabnani: I'm not doing it.
• 34:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 34:10
  Heidi Sabnani: And like someone else from the back was like, well just look at the structure of that.
• 34:15
  Heidi Sabnani: And I was like, I didn't even think that, like my brain short circuited in that moment.
• 34:20
  Heidi Sabnani: And if I had been able to pause and think, and so that's what, that was the conversation I had with my teachers.
• 34:25
  Heidi Sabnani: I was like, because we all went to that same place.
• 34:27
  Heidi Sabnani: We all went to like, oh, But like looking for that structure in that moment, giving yourself a pause like that will still happen.
• 34:34
  Heidi Sabnani: I will still walk into spaces where I'm like, I don't know that I should be here, Someone made me feel a certain kind of way about it, but done the work, I'm here, like I'm working on it like none of us have arrived.
• 34:49
  Heidi Sabnani: We're all working on things.
• 34:50
  Heidi Sabnani: And so give yourself some time and space in that moment and like you can do the thing.
• 34:55
  Heidi Sabnani: You just have to give yourself some time.
• 34:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 34:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Final two questions.
• 35:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Someone is listening to this.
• 35:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: They're like, wow, I love everything.
• 35:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 35:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: You have 30 seconds to answer this a time test, so not okay of me.
• 35:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 35:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: So someone's listening, they're like, I love all of this, and like, Ugh, I would love Heidi to come help us at our school.
• 35:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: But the thing is, I'm just not a math person, so it's just not gonna work.
• 35:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: What would you say.
• 35:15
  Heidi Sabnani: Yeah, I would say, um, what We can also talk literacy.
• 35:20
  Heidi Sabnani: Let's talk literacy first, and, and then I'll show you how that connects to mathematics, I do work in both of those spaces.
• 35:27
  Heidi Sabnani: Um, but it is like.
• 35:30
  Heidi Sabnani: You are, you are a person who interacts with mathematics in some form or another.
• 35:35
  Heidi Sabnani: So let's start with that.
• 35:36
  Heidi Sabnani: And let's start with the things that you're comfortable with.
• 35:38
  Heidi Sabnani: If it's literacy, we're gonna start there and we're gonna show you how those things connect to math.
• 35:42
  Heidi Sabnani: And then I'm gonna make you a math person
• 35:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Ah, I really like the emphasis you've made on the connection of you have skills in this other area you feel comfortable in, let me show you how they connect in math, because that's something I do a lot in my work, I call it like your math superpower.
• 35:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're just using different language for the same thing of being like, you're good, you feel good about these things, you're just not seeing how those apply in math.
• 36:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, I love that so much, and I think that has to do with broadening our definition of what math is like asking good questions.
• 36:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: You do that in literacy and you're good at it.
• 36:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: You feel good about it.
• 36:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: Guess what?
• 36:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: Asking good questions is a math skill, so love that.
• 36:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, last question.
• 36:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: If there was one thing you could change about the way math is taught, what would it be?
• 36:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is that my question?
• 36:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is there there one thing you could change about math class?
• 36:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: I can't even remember it anymore.
• 36:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Whatever.
• 36:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Heidi, answer one of those in 30 seconds.
• 36:32
  Heidi Sabnani: I wish that we had more time and fewer standards.
• 36:39
  Heidi Sabnani: I think that would make a, a really big difference.
• 36:41
  Heidi Sabnani: And I think like looking at things in a more connected way.
• 36:47
  Heidi Sabnani: You know, during the Renaissance, you were not regardless of when and where it happened in your country.
• 36:54
  Heidi Sabnani: You are not solely a math person or a literacy person or art person, or a sculptor or what, like it was a, it was the combination of all of those things together.
• 37:02
  Heidi Sabnani: And we so much teach things in silos now we don't allow students to see the connectedness between all of those pieces of life.
• 37:12
  Heidi Sabnani: And so I, I wish that we could change that, and help students see that the skills that they're learning in math help them in other spaces as
• 37:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know what is so interesting that when you just said that, I just got goosebumps because I was like, I was getting this deja vu and I remembered my last guest, Dr.
• 37:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Edward Doolittle, who's in, he's a, an indigenous math expert in Canada.
• 37:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: He talked about how this exact same thing, he put it in different words, but he said in indigenous cultures we, they have sages, right?
• 37:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: There's just a sage that's like a knower of things.
• 37:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's not like a math stage and an English right?
• 37:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's like this idea of like this collective wisdom, this holistic wisdom.
• 37:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you're right, I think there is something to this siloed approach where like a lot of things actually are not siloed.
• 37:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know what I mean?
• 37:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like it's like almost like we come up, we have this word like the arts, and that actually encompasses a lot of things, but math is only this one thing.
• 38:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it's, I really, that is gonna leave me thinking, that's gonna leave us all thinking that idea of like less silos, more just wisdom.
• 38:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like what is wisdom and why is mathematical wisdom just not a part of this?
• 38:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm now, I'm now over explaining because I think actually 30 seconds ago I had a mic drop and it was really good after your mic drop and now we gotta end this.
• 38:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're gonna end this.
• 38:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm undoing the wisdom that I just shared.
• 38:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: That was actually not mine.
• 38:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: It was yours and Dr.
• 38:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Edward Doolittle's.
• 38:40
  Heidi Sabnani: No, but I, I think that's like such a key element of this work, is we have to stop looking at it in, in those ways.
• 38:49
  Heidi Sabnani: And we have to start, it's the idea of when we try new things that are outside our comfort zone, do we expect immediate success?
• 39:01
  Heidi Sabnani: You're a musician, I played piano for years and years and years.
• 39:04
  Heidi Sabnani: That didn't come from, like, I just sat down one day and I was like a prodigy.
• 39:09
  Heidi Sabnani: Those moments are rare, right?
• 39:10
  Heidi Sabnani: So like, it takes time.
• 39:12
  Heidi Sabnani: I learned to watercolor during the pandemic.
• 39:14
  Heidi Sabnani: begrudgingly like all of those things, it takes time, right?
• 39:18
  Heidi Sabnani: It takes time.
• 39:19
  Heidi Sabnani: And you know what, it's just paper.
• 39:21
  Heidi Sabnani: like the person I've been learning with online, like, she's like, it's just paper, throw it out..
• 39:24
  Heidi Sabnani: Start over.
• 39:26
  Heidi Sabnani: If we look at mathematics as problem solving, then let's solve real problems that matter.
• 39:31
  Heidi Sabnani: And let's not just have them so isolated.
• 39:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: What a lovely conversation.
• 39:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Honestly.
• 39:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Thank you so much for making time.
• 39:40
  Heidi Sabnani: go on and
• 39:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: You are so, oh yeah, we could talk.
• 39:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: We were gonna have to do a part two.
• 39:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: We could talk forever.
• 39:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: Heidi, thank you so much.
• 39:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're amazing.
• 39:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: Thank you for being here.
• 39:48
  Heidi Sabnani: Well, thank you for having me.
• 39:49
  Heidi Sabnani: I love it that we have met in real life and we get to chat about the work that you're doing and that I'm doing and like the connection between the two.
• 39:57
  Heidi Sabnani: 'Cause again, it takes more than one person.
• 39:59
  Heidi Sabnani: Like it takes a whole community of us doing this work to actually
• 40:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 40:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, thank you for being in the community.
• 40:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh.
• 40:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: I feel like me and Heidi are both bad at saying bye.
• 40:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't know that either of us is gonna do it.
• 40:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: She's waving.
• 40:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Say it.
• 40:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Goodbye
• 40:11
  Heidi Sabnani: Bye.
• 40:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, you know I love practical advice.
• 40:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: I love useful strategies.
• 40:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: And there is nothing I love more than steps.
• 40:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: I love how Heidi broke her thinking down into clear steps to show us that transformation can happen with intentional, consistent action.
• 40:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: And if you noticed, that was a cornerstone of how she helps teachers transform, through consistent learning, consistent practice with different approaches to math, and consistent support that helps them feel safe enough to try new things.
• 40:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: If you're listening, regardless of what anxiety you're trying to work through right now, like maybe it's math anxiety, but maybe it's just anxiety around getting organized or being financially secure, traveling solo, speaking your mind, I don't know, but Heidi's message still works.
• 40:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: So commit to trying a new approach consistently, week after week, month after month.
• 40:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: When we try a new approach to something and stick to it, we will get a different outcome.
• 41:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's basically guaranteed.
• 41:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: All right, before I say bye, or attempt to say bye, remember to do two things.
• 41:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: Number one, text this episode to your math people.
• 41:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know, the ones who need to know they can change the way they feel about math, and the ones in charge of supporting those who want to change the way they feel about math, and the ones who want to win a brand-new calculator.
• 41:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because this brings me to the next thing I want you to remember, which is to enter our giveaway with Texas Instruments, which includes a brand-new TI-84 Evo with a four-year online calculator license, a getting started guide and calendar, and a plushie keychain in a mystery color.
• 41:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: All you have to do is text the podcast using the link in your app and tell me you want in on the TI giveaway by Tuesday, May nineteenth.
• 41:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'll randomly pick a winner, and just like that, the new TI-84 Evo is yours, baby.
• 41:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: All right, guys, that's all she wrote.
• 41:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: See you next week, same day, same channel, same unhinged energy.