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Embodied Leadership for a Disconnected World with Linden Thorp · Healthy Happy Wise Wealthy

• Mary Meyer [0:05]: Hi, everybody. Welcome back to Healthy, Happy, Wise, Wealthy. I have with us today, I'm so excited, Linden Thorp, uh, who embodiment and signal literacy is what you have on your thing there. Mary Meyer [0:30]: But you work with, you've worked with students, you're working with CEOs, and you bring a connection of embodiment with leadership, with an understanding of stress, anxiety, and also an understanding of things like body, the body language, you know, of, of non-verbals and even the voice and how that connects. Mary Meyer [0:53]: So it is fascinating to me. Um, I do wanna say- ... that we have a podcast sponsor, Mindiii, M-I-N-D-I-I-I, an IT company, and I'm excited to be working with them, offering IT services to, uh, businesses, anyone who needs it. So Linden, it is your birthday. Linden Thorp [1:12]: Yes, it is. Yes, it is. And I'm having a wonderful time. Yes, I really am. Mary Meyer [1:20]: I'm so glad. Happy birthday. Linden Thorp [1:22]: Thank you. Mary Meyer [1:23]: And- Linden Thorp [1:23]: Thank you Mary Meyer [1:25]: ... and Linden is all the way in Japan, so if there's ever a little lag in our, in our talk, you know why, so. Linden Thorp [1:32]: Yeah. Yeah. Mary Meyer [1:33]: So excited for that. Linden Thorp [1:34]: Sometimes, unfortunately, that happens here. Mary Meyer [1:37]: Yeah. Linden, can you just, uh, say a little bit about, um, your work in Japan and how you got to this place? I know you started out working with, with, uh, English as a second language and teaching students long ago. Linden Thorp [1:51]: Yeah. Mary Meyer [1:51]: Or not maybe that long ago. Linden Thorp [1:52]: Yes. Mary Meyer [1:52]: But- Linden Thorp [1:53]: Well, yes, long ago. Long ago. Mary Meyer [1:56]: Okay, long ago, okay. Linden Thorp [1:58]: Um, well, I started long ago. Uh, I retired three years ago, actually, from full-time, uh, education, uh, university education. Um, and then I started my own business. But my story starts a long, long time ago. And, um, perhaps, uh, the, the one of... Linden Thorp [2:21]: well, two of the most important strands are when I was 10, and this may interest your viewers, um, I was born in the north of England, okay? Um, everybody knows Manchester. So I was born- Mary Meyer [2:37]: Yes Linden Thorp [2:37]: ... in the Manchester area. Mary Meyer [2:39]: Okay. Linden Thorp [2:40]: Um, and when I was 10, uh, I was playing cricket, as British people do, you know, in our backyard with my father and my s- and my brother, and we were having a lunchtime cricket game. But the important thing is that the radio was blaring out. So I'm of that generation, uh, when the radio was the most important thing, uh, before TV really got a, got a, A, you know, grabbed us. Linden Thorp [3:11]: And so the radio was blaring out, and suddenly I heard this voice say, "Encountering the teachings of the Buddha is the most precious thing in the world, and it's like a turtle poking its head through a drift log in the ocean." So it's so unlikely, in other words. Linden Thorp [3:34]: And I was completely entranced by this statement at the age of 10. Never heard of the Buddha, um, never seen a sea turtle in Manchester, um, but I was completely entranced by it. And from that moment on, I became a Buddhist. Um- Mary Meyer [3:53]: Okay Linden Thorp [3:53]: ... born into a Christian family, Roman Catholic on one side, Protestants on the other. You know how it is in the UK. Linden Thorp [4:01]: There's a real mix. Um, but I really pushed all that away, and, uh, I started to pursue Buddhism in a very strong way, and that has really colored my pathway and my journey to, to today, and still continues to, um, um, influence my life. Linden Thorp [4:23]: I'm a Buddhist priest, have been for many years now. Um, so that's one strand. Linden Thorp [4:29]: And then the second strand was I became entranced by music. Linden Thorp [4:37]: Um, my parents wanted me to be a doctor, uh, forced me into doctor training. I'm glad they did because I did most of it, but I didn't... I never qualified, and I got to the point where I knew being a mainstream medic was not for me. Linden Thorp [4:52]: Um, and I was right. Um, and so I became a musician and I, I pushed aside science and I pushed all those things away, and I became a professional musician, concert pianist, and cellist, singer, vocalist. Um, and for many years I was on the circuit performing, uh, with orchestras and so on. Linden Thorp [5:17]: Uh, and then I broke my hand, and so that, that part of my life- Mary Meyer [5:21]: Oh, no Linden Thorp [5:21]: ... had to stop 'cause I just couldn't use my left hand in the same way. Mary Meyer [5:26]: Oh. Linden Thorp [5:26]: So, well, that was great because then I be- became really, really fascinated by communication, um, because I'd communicated with music, which is concrete. Linden Thorp [5:39]: You know? You hear a, a, a song, y- you like it or you don't. It's concrete. You can't interpret it. You can only respond to it. Um, that's a big key in my work. Mary Meyer [5:53]: Yes Linden Thorp [5:53]: ... and so I, um, really started to pursue-Uh, English as an academic language for foreign performers. So I worked with- within the university system, uh, for most of my life, teaching foreign performers of English, uh, to excel with English. Linden Thorp [6:15]: Now, that gave me a very new perspective on communication, because I got involved with words rather than- Mary Meyer [6:24]: Yes, yes Linden Thorp [6:26]: ... sounds. And words, of course, are abstract. And so there, there we have it in my life, the real sort of two pathways, the concrete, the music, the Buddhist practice, and the words, the abstract, the, the interpretable, you know? And, um, so now I work bringing all those strands together, uh, with embodiment, to help people to go beneath the symbols of words and images, and, um, touch reality. Linden Thorp [7:04]: And that's, that's really, uh, in a nutshell, a very small nutshell. Mary Meyer [7:10]: Yes. Yeah, that, that was a very good, um, synopsis. And I, I- ... you know, I think I had shared with you before, I was a music major for one year, so, um- Linden Thorp [7:19]: Yes, you did Mary Meyer [7:20]: ... I played, played, um... I could play some concert piano pieces. Mary Meyer [7:25]: I'm not at the level- Linden Thorp [7:26]: Ooh Mary Meyer [7:26]: ... you were at, but I do, I do relate to that. So that's, in all the- Mary Meyer [7:31]: Lovely Mary Meyer [7:31]: ... the auditory training, you know, part of why I didn't continue with that is because the ear training portion, I was not good at, at all. Linden Thorp [7:38]: Right. Mary Meyer [7:38]: So it's- Linden Thorp [7:41]: That- Mary Meyer [7:41]: It's very- Mary Meyer [7:42]: That's interesting. Mary Meyer [7:42]: It's very, it's very tough, you know? It's, um, when you're, when you're not in that mind. But it, there is a different, I think you look at the world from a different mindset. Mary Meyer [7:52]: Uh, uh, that's not even the right word, 'cause it's such a different mindset. I don't even know that the word mindset can even be something that's used. Mary Meyer [8:01]: Um, and so now today, um, you're, you're working with, uh, primarily business owners, correct? And CEOs- Linden Thorp [8:10]: Yes Mary Meyer [8:10]: ... C-suite, and taking those different things about, I'll use the word embodiment, 'cause you've used that a lot- Linden Thorp [8:18]: Yes Mary Meyer [8:18]: ... and how to connect, um, embodiment to leadership. Linden Thorp [8:23]: Yes. Mary Meyer [8:23]: Is that right? Linden Thorp [8:24]: Yes, that's right. And, uh, I'm still... I mean, this is still quite new work, really, um, on- Linden Thorp [8:33]: Yes Linden Thorp [8:33]: ... online. Um, I am an Alexander teacher, FM Alexander technique, and a Feldenkrais teacher. And so I do do hands-on work, I do do face-to-face work, but haven't done much in Japan so far, because Japan's a bit skeptical about these things. Mary Meyer [8:51]: Oh. Linden Thorp [8:52]: Uh, and is very conservative about, uh, man- many things from outside, you know? So, but I'm working on it, and I hope I'll be doing some group work next year, uh, with Japanese people. Linden Thorp [9:07]: Um, but, uh, on the whole, yes, I'm online. It's fairly new work. Linden Thorp [9:14]: Um, and it's really the crest of a wave, I feel, because, um, we've reached a point now in the digital revolution where we, um, w- we are losing our contact with humanity. And it's ironic, really, because with the ascendancy of AI, we are asked to be more human, to enhance our humanity. Linden Thorp [9:43]: But what's happening is that people are losing contact with it because they are not embodied. Linden Thorp [9:51]: And they are disconnected, really, from their bodies and their spirits. Linden Thorp [9:57]: Um, you'll hear me talk about mind a lot, and please, I hope none of your guests get upset by that. Some people do. It is brilliant, but it's limited, and it's this mind that, um, we associate with the brain and everything neuro. Um, but it is not designed to live by. Mary Meyer [10:20]: Yes. Linden Thorp [10:21]: So we can calculate, we can estimate, we can summarize, we can do all these fabulous things which we need to do, but people don't step away from that. They stay in that limited mind to try to live a life. So they're using that lens, uh, limited lens, to, to, to live, to navigate their life, and that's when things start to go wrong, because the limited mind is not designed for that, uh, kind of sustainability. Linden Thorp [10:54]: Uh, it's, it's a great set of tools. It's, um, I liken it to an amazing firework display. I think concepts and thoughts and images and so on are wonderful, but they're not permanent, and they eventually extinguish, and we're left with a plume of smoke and a little trail of ash, you know? Linden Thorp [11:21]: Um, whereas if we come out of the limited mind into the unlimited mind, which is, um, the body, the spirit, the, um, undaunted spirit of, of human, of the human species- Linden Thorp [11:39]: ... um, then we, we can live in a very balanced way. Linden Thorp [11:55]: So it's a really crucial time for embodiment at the moment. And, uh-Thank goodness people are beginning to wake up to this idea. Linden Thorp [12:06]: Yeah Mary Meyer [12:06]: Yes. And I do think it is, uh, you know, the word, I think people have heard the word, but, uh, to be in your body versus just kind of cerebral up here is not something that we cerebrally think about. Linden Thorp [12:22]: No, no. Mary Meyer [12:23]: You know? Linden Thorp [12:25]: That's true. Mary Meyer [12:25]: Me included. Me included. Mary Meyer [12:27]: So, um, and I've had, you know, like, as I was doing work, I'll just tell you kind of, like, where I... 'Cause I, you know, it would... This is not a term that I've ever heard. It would be outside of the realm of people that I know would feel really aware of or comfortable with. Mary Meyer [12:46]: Uh, that I did work to, uh, with a guest that I've had on. Her name is Kara Stoltenburg, and I've done, uh, several podcasts with her. Mary Meyer [12:54]: But years ago, uh, 15 or so years ago, I started working with her, and there was a, uh, a QR, a QR machine. So it's like an ener- an energy that kind of read, went through your body and, and read what was going wrong in different ways. Mary Meyer [13:12]: So that's when I, that's when I started, uh, doing work for Lyme's disease, wh- which I didn't know why, but you know, all that. Mary Meyer [13:19]: And so brain frog, so you're living in your head, but your body, like, everything is kind of numb. Linden Thorp [13:26]: Yeah Mary Meyer [13:26]: So you're just going through life, but everything is numb because of that. Linden Thorp [13:30]: Yes. Mary Meyer [13:30]: Uh, but then, but then through that, I also realized, you know, who in my life was, um, you know, causing, uh, a lot of strain on me, grief- Linden Thorp [13:40]: Grief Mary Meyer [13:40]: ... whatever you might call it. Uh, and so then had to also deal with that. But in the middle of that, I started becoming very aware of, of, and the flow of energy in my body, uh, to, to an extent that I had never had before. Mary Meyer [13:56]: And also people who know me would think I'm weird for saying that. Uh, but I think when, when it comes down to it, maybe we're all weird because we should all- Linden Thorp [14:05]: Yeah Mary Meyer [14:05]: ... be feeling. We should all have that- Linden Thorp [14:07]: Yeah Mary Meyer [14:08]: ... sense, you know? Linden Thorp [14:10]: Yes. Yes. Mary Meyer [14:11]: Yeah. And, and I know when I, when I first had chatted with you, I just had this sense of, like, all of a sudden just the g- the g- feeling grounded is another word. So it's feeling like- Mary Meyer [14:21]: ... you can go down in your body and you can feel your feet and you... But, but it's putting attention. Mary Meyer [14:28]: And you tell me how you would phrase it, but I would say embodiment, like of how I've learned through yoga or different things is maybe you put attention on different parts of your body, and when you put attention on it, you realize you've not been paying any attention in some ways. Linden Thorp [14:45]: Yes. That, I, I mean, that, that's a really interesting way to look at it. I, I think that, um, really there are several things that can help us to become embodied and, and one is gravity. Uh, I use gravity a lot in my work. And, you know, people think it's just a metaphor or just a kind of fancy word. Linden Thorp [15:08]: Um, gravity, you know, gravitas and all of that, all those associations are there. But in fact, if we actually experience gravity and give it some attention, um, we are, as you say, grounded very, very strongly. Um, uh, it's very easy to do because, um, if we, if we just focus on the word and talk about gravity, well, that's one thing. Linden Thorp [15:39]: But that's in the limited mind. So if we step away from that and we just come down into our bodies with this mind- Linden Thorp [15:47]: ... um, then the easiest way to feel gravity, to actually experience and feel it, is to let go of the weight in the lower part of your body. So if you're sitting right now, you're lovely guests, if you're sitting, then, uh, please, uh, just let go of the weight of your lower body from the pelvis downwards. Linden Thorp [16:13]: Put your feet flat on the floor. Um, and if you're standing, it's the same. Linden Thorp [16:18]: Letting go of the weight in the lower body really allows us to be held by the Earth. Linden Thorp [16:28]: And, uh, the, the reality is if y- if we didn't have gravity, if we didn't have this gravitational force, then we'd disappear into space and never be seen or heard of again. So it's essential for our human life that we are held by the Earth in place. Linden Thorp [16:49]: But if we spend too long in the limited mind, then we lose that sense of the weight of the body, and we, we start to become lightheaded. We start to become, uh, detached from it. So it's really easy every so often during your busy day, if you just sit or stand and take a moment to feel the weight of your body releasing down into your feet, down into the seat if you're sitting, then that is superb grounding. Linden Thorp [17:27]: Uh, you'll never get better grounding. We can ground in, in the psychologically. Psychologists will tell you about psychological grounding, but that's very transient and it doesn't last. Linden Thorp [17:40]: If we use the force of gravity physically in our lives, it's sustainable. It's always there. It's a resource to- Linden Thorp [17:51]: ... truly ground us. Um, and once you are truly grounded and you've really let go of that weight, what happens is magical. The-Gravitational grounding will then allow the urge to be upright, to become really strong. Linden Thorp [18:14]: So with the breath, with the crown of the head going up, then we aspire to be upright, and that's a very strong state of being in, in humans. So if you've got the, the grounding, then the, the urge to be upright and to be, you know, a- have a s- nice straight spine and, um, breathe properly, it's all, it's all there once we're grounded. Linden Thorp [18:43]: Uh, but if we're not grounded, then those things will not, that urge will not become, uh, important or apparent e- for some people. Mary Meyer [18:53]: Yes. Linden Thorp [18:53]: So- Mary Meyer [18:54]: Are the, are those- Mary Meyer [18:55]: ... concepts of the Alexander technique, I looked at that a little bit today, and I know I'd- Mary Meyer [19:00]: ... heard of it before, but I don't really think I've actively learned. Mary Meyer [19:07]: Like, I've heard about it and, and probably in some acting classes someone used something about it, 'cause it is something I think I've learned, heard about through that, but- Linden Thorp [19:17]: Yes Mary Meyer [19:17]: ... are th- Linden Thorp [19:18]: Well, yes, basically. Um, and, and by the way, Alexander technique classes now are available in all performing arts colleges and so on. Um, I, I've worked a little bit in, uh, music conservatoire with, with the technique, and I've worked with actors, writers using Alexander technique. Linden Thorp [19:41]: So it, it is something that is becoming more and more popular, uh, in, uh, pursuing the performing arts. Um, but yes, it is. The, that principle of being grounded through gravity, really important principle in technique, the, the, the technique. Um, it's, it's very, uh, simple really to think about using y- the weight of your body. Linden Thorp [20:10]: So I, even with your arm, if you think of an arm, if you're holding that arm tightly, if you're really clenching it, then of course you are fighting against gravity. Linden Thorp [20:26]: You know, you're, you're fighting- Mary Meyer [20:28]: If you're doing this Linden Thorp [20:28]: ... with, with the gravitational force, and that's exhausting. Mary Meyer [20:33]: Yeah. Linden Thorp [20:33]: And you know, part of the reason people are saying they're so exhausted these days is that they are not properly grounded, and they are clenching their bodies so that they can perform- Linden Thorp [20:47]: ... and be professional and be brilliant. You know, we're hearing a lot about this, uh, you know, obsession with performing, with presentations and scripts and all of this, when all the time if we let go of that arm that we are clinging to and, and, and clenching, then we're using gravity in a useful way. Linden Thorp [21:13]: We're letting the arm drop towards the Earth with the force- Mary Meyer [21:18]: Yeah Linden Thorp [21:19]: ... of gravity, and we're, we're using it. And, uh, that's a very big part of the Alexander technique. Um, so an Alexander te- teacher will very often stand behind you, uh, or sit behind you if you're on a table. We often work on tables, you know. Linden Thorp [21:41]: Um, and they will, uh, ensure that you're grounded by asking you to soften various parts of your body. For example, if you're standing, behind the knees gets very tight. People lock their knees back, especially men. Men are very prone to doing this, which is kind of military style, you know? Linden Thorp [22:03]: So we will encourage you to soften your knees, um, to let your, uh, legs be flexible. Then we, we use hands. So we put hands on, and we encourage the urge to be up, to breathe upwards, for the spine to lessen and the crown of the head to go up. Linden Thorp [22:24]: And so yes, we work with gravity all the time in the technique. Mary Meyer [22:29]: Yeah. I'm just practicing it as you're saying it, 'cause I'm like- Linden Thorp [22:32]: Oh, good Mary Meyer [22:32]: ... I was looking today, I'm like, I'm like, "Let me pay attention while you're talking about this," and it's like, it's kinda like the- Linden Thorp [22:37]: Yeah Mary Meyer [22:38]: ... spine going up and the spine going down, and you feel- Linden Thorp [22:40]: Yeah Mary Meyer [22:41]: ... one and then you feel the- Linden Thorp [22:41]: Great. Great. Well, that's- Mary Meyer [22:44]: Yeah Linden Thorp [22:44]: ... that's it. I mean, the, the thing is, uh, grab these moments because, uh, when you do that, you're here and now. So I can see you're very much here and now. Linden Thorp [22:57]: Most of us are not here and now often at all. We're either off in the past regretting or, or, you know, dredging up things to make us feel better or whatever, or we're in the future, which has not happened yet, and we can have no control over whatsoever. Linden Thorp [23:18]: And so coming into here and now, just practicing letting go with the gravitational pull, um, is excellent because you're in that, in the moment, in the center of the moment, and that's really where we need to be. Mary Meyer [23:36]: Yes, for sure. Linden Thorp [23:37]: Yeah. Mary Meyer [23:37]: And I, g- to be honest, I would've thought I would be very good at that because I've done enough, you know, acting and performing for music and different things, and I've done some work on awareness and body awareness and done more yoga and more work with, uh, kind of understanding energy. But when you know, especially, like, uh, sometimes I, I record myself, like, on a podcast and then I listen back and I'm likeYou know, I was thinking about the next question because I had to ask another question instead of, you know, re- Mary Meyer [24:08]: ... listen and respond. 'Cause I'm usually fairly good at that, but then I catch myself all the time. Mary Meyer [24:13]: Or I'm recording my grandbaby saying something that's super precious, and I'll even say back to her in the recording what she just said, but I don't even hear it until I listen to it and go, "Oh, look at that. She's br- she's brilliant." You know? Mary Meyer [24:25]: Uh, but I- I catch myself. And so it i- it's interesting to me how this really is something that seems like, um, if, if, if it's new thought to people, which usually it is, it almost seems like a quote, unquote nothing. But it becomes like an... It's not that. It's very actually incredibly difficult, and it also becomes, um, when you make the shift, uh, there's... Mary Meyer [24:50]: You do see really fast changes in your life. Wouldn't you say? Linden Thorp [24:56]: Absolutely. Yes. Mary Meyer [24:56]: Yeah. Linden Thorp [24:57]: Absolutely. Um, I do... I think I talked to you about this. I do a, a 30-minute recalibration session with people. Linden Thorp [25:07]: Um, 30 minutes, you may think, "Oh, come on, you know, what can you do in 30 minutes?" But that's another limited mind skepticism because we, we think, you know, time is the tyrant, uh, of the limited mind. But in the unlimited mind, no such thing. It's a concept, you see. Mary Meyer [25:25]: Yeah. Linden Thorp [25:26]: Time is a concept. So for the unlimited mind, there is no time measurement, and so, yes, it's amazing what we can accomplish in 30 minutes. Um, basically, the, um, the brain is hardwired, okay, to, uh, get into adult life to, um, get, get us approved by our social group and community and so on. Linden Thorp [25:56]: So the hardwiring consists of a lot of... I can't explain it any other way than indoctrination. We are conditioned, we are indoctrinated by social voices, by rules, regulations and so on. And of course, it, it... The older we get, the more difficult it is to, um, to kind of navigate that. Linden Thorp [26:22]: Um, so what I do in 30 minutes is I start a process which softens that hardwiring, uh, and starts to, um, bring the, uh, person back into their inner zone, into their- Linden Thorp [26:41]: ... unique still center. And then I very often, uh, work with permission, because many of us do not realize that we are the supreme rulers of our minds, and we're the only rulers. We think, via the limited mind, that, you know, something else out there is ruling us. Linden Thorp [27:08]: It... Something else is forcing us to do things. But in fact, you can't change until you give yourself permission to change. Linden Thorp [27:19]: So in that 30 minutes period, I will give, I will help, I will guide people to give themselves permission to change and to let go of what they don't need. Linden Thorp [27:32]: Um, once we've got that permission moving, then we start to work on language. Because very often, uh, because our native language, uh, is so familiar to us, it's another reason I work- I chose to work with non-native speakers of English. Linden Thorp [27:54]: Um, once our native language, uh, is, is really, um, acting on our, on the way we live, we become inured to it. We, uh, use cliches. Linden Thorp [28:07]: We say things we don't mean. We, uh, explain things too much. Uh, some of the words we use are hollow. They've lost their meaning to us, really. Linden Thorp [28:22]: So just a little example, I was working with someone who had a, a very great amount of pain in her low back. Linden Thorp [28:32]: And I said to her, "Don't tell me the story of how you got this pain, but tell me what you say about it to your friends, to your family." So she's thought for a moment, and she said, "Uh, I say something like, 'Oh, my back will never recover. I don't know what's happening to it.'" So she said those words to me, and as she said them, she looked into my eyes and I said, "Hmm. Linden Thorp [29:00]: Negative." Um, reinforcing, um, and not owned. Linden Thorp [29:09]: You're throwing this, you're throwing these phrases away, and you probably say them very often. Linden Thorp [29:15]: And each time you say them, you're knocking the condition further- Mary Meyer [29:19]: Right Linden Thorp [29:19]: ... further into your system. So we recalibrated what she said, and we chose words that were more suitable and that meant something to her- Linden Thorp [29:35]: ... when she said them. So it's a, uh, as if she... Language had become kind of, uh, remote to her in a way, and she's just like a puppet, you know, mouthing the words with no feeling, no tr- no sincerity. Mary Meyer [29:50]: Yeah. Linden Thorp [29:50]: So we chose different words which were very positive. Um, and we... Linden Thorp [29:57]: E- each word we reactivated. And the best example was my. Linden Thorp [30:02]: So I s- I asked her to say, "Say it. Say my." And she said my very weakly.At first. And I said, "Well, what does it mean?" And she said, "Oh, you mean my?" I said, "Yes, I mean that." So she said it a few more times, my, and started the vibrations going down into her chest. Linden Thorp [30:26]: Her face widened. She felt her eyes lit up. And I said, "That's it." If you own that word, then it will come from your body, not from your limited mind in a clichè way. Linden Thorp [30:42]: Well, two days later after she'd practiced using her new script, uh, and a couple of other things I asked her to do, she mailed me in a very excited way and said, "Linda, I got no pain. None." Mary Meyer [30:57]: Oh. Linden Thorp [30:58]: "It's gone." So it's just amazing how we lose touch with the words we say, and they mean very little to us in terms of the body and the spirit. Mary Meyer [31:12]: Right. Linden Thorp [31:12]: They're just from the neck, you know? Um, and often- Mary Meyer [31:17]: Yeah Linden Thorp [31:17]: ... to impress people or to get sympathy. They're quite manipulative. But the best thing to help us live our lives fully is to realize that every single word we think and we say, both are good, you know, whether it's inside with a looping my dialogue going on, or whether you say things out loud, affects every cell of your body. Mary Meyer [31:46]: Mm-hmm. Linden Thorp [31:46]: Every word affects every cell. And so imagine a life where you're just speaking platitudes all the time, cliches. Linden Thorp [31:58]: Uh, language is not actually connecting with you as a person. That's what embodiment is really, where we know every word we say is coming from the body, and it is real, you know, to us. Mary Meyer [32:14]: And I feel like I find, like, and I find this with you and some other people, that you just go around... 'Cause most people, if you say, "How are you doing?" "I'm good. How are you?" "Good." Uh, but if you, if you find someone, and I've had several podcast guests who are like this, who say, who hear, you know, process, say something that's really rather profound, uh, or just, like, very in... Mary Meyer [32:38]: You're there. They're there. They're listening. They're processing. They're hearing. And then the real, the real circle of beautiful human connection happens in those situations where we are hearing each other on a, on a level where maybe it is that we're willing to change our opinion on something, who knows what, based on- Linden Thorp [33:02]: Yes Mary Meyer [33:02]: ... interactions with people. You know? Like, we're really- Linden Thorp [33:05]: Yes Mary Meyer [33:05]: ... that's, you know, an openness to something, uh- Linden Thorp [33:08]: Yes Mary Meyer [33:09]: ... irregardless- Linden Thorp [33:10]: Yes Mary Meyer [33:10]: ... of maybe what it is. But, uh- Linden Thorp [33:13]: Yes. The limit- again, the, the limited mind is important here because the, the limited mind is a superb critic, and a self-critic often. Mary Meyer [33:22]: Oh, yes. Linden Thorp [33:22]: You know? So, you know, if somebody says something meaningful to you, your body may respond to that and think, "Wow," and your heart beats faster, and you, you feel that this is really meaningful. But the limited mind will say, "Hey, come on. Linden Thorp [33:39]: You can't believe that rubbish." You know? And it will, it will pull you away from what your body cells are telling you. Linden Thorp [33:48]: And that happens all the time. Yeah. Mary Meyer [33:51]: Yeah. Linden Thorp [33:51]: We defer to the limited mind all the time, I think. Linden Thorp [33:56]: Yeah. Mary Meyer [33:56]: And, and I know when you, when you first told me that story of the woman, and maybe you didn't wanna say it this time 'cause it made me emotional, but, but she had, like, she had, like, a guilt that was connected to her low back. Linden Thorp [34:07]: Mm. Mary Meyer [34:08]: And I, I just- Linden Thorp [34:09]: Yeah Mary Meyer [34:09]: ... I just wanna bring that up, and you can tell us a little more, but I know when I was doing some of the- Linden Thorp [34:14]: Please Mary Meyer [34:15]: ... work that I did, that, uh, guilt was brought up as, like, the layer that keeps everything in place and keeps it from releasing. So if there's any kind of, uh... Mary Meyer [34:25]: And, and hers was self-imposed guilt, not a, not a guilt from- Linden Thorp [34:29]: Yes Mary Meyer [34:30]: ... but- Linden Thorp [34:31]: Yes Mary Meyer [34:31]: ... what do you think of that? Linden Thorp [34:33]: It's a terrible thing. And yeah, it comes with sacrifice as well, which I'm afraid being a woman and, and perhaps being of a Christian background very often, uh, leads us to s- feel we have to sacrifice. You know, we have to do this for other people because it's good, and we'll be seen in a certain light and so on. Linden Thorp [34:55]: But actually, actually we sacrifice so much there's nothing left. Linden Thorp [35:01]: There's nothing left for us, you know? And so we become- Linden Thorp [35:05]: ... kind of hollow people walking around who've sacrificed everything for the benefit of others. Um, of course, it's wonderful to have compassion for other people, uh, and to help them if needs be and so on. And truly, as a Buddhist, I can say that that is my, my life really. Linden Thorp [35:26]: That's what I do. But I have balance, so I do have my own quality and my own c- connection, and I'm not- Linden Thorp [35:39]: ... sacrificing myself any longer. I did at one point. Mary Meyer [35:44]: Yeah. Linden Thorp [35:44]: Um, but then I realized the difference. Mary Meyer [35:48]: Yeah. Linden Thorp [35:48]: Sacrificing is, it's a very unhealthy thing to do. Um, and we're, we're tricked by the limited mind to think it's something really good and worthwhile- Mary Meyer [36:00]: Yeah Linden Thorp [36:00]: ... but it's not truly. Um- Mary Meyer [36:03]: Yeah Linden Thorp [36:03]: ... and so, yeah, just to, um, talk a little more about guilt, uh, uh, uh, if I may, um, yes.The, uh, similar, a similar subject to the one I'd just, I just told you about with the, that script change and so on, um, had a, a really serious issue with pain and contacted me. Linden Thorp [36:28]: So I worked in a similar way with, with her. But when we started to rewrite her script and to activate it, so, uh, she was using words that really meant something to her, um, a lot of emotion came up. And, uh, the, the pain she was experiencing was, again, in the low back, which, you know, m- most people experience low back pain because it is an extraordinary center of energy. Linden Thorp [37:01]: We don't realize this, but the base chakra- Mary Meyer [37:04]: Yes Linden Thorp [37:04]: ... you know, the, the energy centers up and down the spine, the base chakra is the most important because it's the connection with the planet. It's our Earth connection, but it's also, um, a, an incredible, uh, energy generation spot. Linden Thorp [37:22]: The... If we train a heat camera onto the bottom of the spine, we'll see it's the hottest of the whole body because it's the, it's the place of birth for women, the place of procreation for men, and the place of elimination for all of us. We have to eliminate toxins from the body. Mary Meyer [37:45]: Yes. Yes. Linden Thorp [37:45]: And so it's a really, really special place. If you're really tired or not well, this is the first place you will feel pain, in your lumbar spine, in your sacrum, right at the base of your spine. So she had very severe lumbar pain. Uh, nothing would shift it, no medication. Linden Thorp [38:09]: She had X-rays. She'd been through the whole mainstream medical, um, process and no answers. So she still was stuck with this terrible, terrible pain. So when we reactivated her script, we chose different words and we practiced. As we, as we were, um, imbuing these words with this new energy that was uniquely her, she became very upset and she said, "I have to tell you that, um, 33 years ago I gave birth to my first child, and it was a terrible birth for me and for the child. Linden Thorp [38:54]: And the child, although not seriously damaged, um, still today has a lot of health issues which come from that struggle to be born." Linden Thorp [39:06]: And, uh, she herself had some health issues related to it too. But although all those things were under control now, 35 years later- Linden Thorp [39:16]: ... and she'd kind of, and everyone had accepted it, she told me, and she'd never told anybody this, that this was the biggest regret of her life, this bad birth, and that she should have done better. Linden Thorp [39:33]: That it was her fault that her child was born with all these problems, and she should have been able to do something better than that. So for 35 year- 33 years she had held on to that trauma and to self-blame and self-guilt, which eventually the body really, um, expressed in a very dramatic way. Linden Thorp [40:04]: So by letting go of the trauma of that, and, you know, we did that in the session. Linden Thorp [40:10]: We reasoned with it, um, and we forgave it, and we did all of those things to let go of it. She let go of the trauma. Same thing, pain gone. Ne- has never come back. I've been monitoring her now for a couple of years. Never has it returned. Linden Thorp [40:32]: So the body tells the truth. Mary Meyer [40:36]: Yeah. Linden Thorp [40:36]: The body always tells the truth, and it holds onto things, um, if you don't have good balance in your life. Mary Meyer [40:46]: Yeah. Linden Thorp [40:46]: You hold onto them, maybe unconsciously. Um, s- always in the back of your mind there is this, as with, with her, you know, this terrible blame, self-blame- Mary Meyer [40:58]: Right Linden Thorp [40:58]: ... for this birth. Mary Meyer [41:00]: Yeah. Mary Meyer [41:01]: Mom, mom guilt is real, right? Linden Thorp [41:04]: Mom guilt is real. Mary Meyer [41:05]: Can't Linden Thorp [41:05]: And it's... Yeah. It's... You often- Mary Meyer [41:08]: But Linden Thorp [41:08]: ... um, attach to trauma, uh, which- Linden Thorp [41:13]: ... is held onto, uh, maybe until your death bed, you know, because people don't know it's there. Um, I'm someone who can get to the bottom of that, and I, I know how to help people to release the trauma. Um, and then they're pain-free. So- Mary Meyer [41:32]: Yeah Linden Thorp [41:32]: ... yeah. Mary Meyer [41:33]: That's beautiful. That's- Linden Thorp [41:34]: If we listen to the body, it's, it's amazing. Yeah. Mary Meyer [41:38]: So when you work with, with, with leaders and business leaders, is there a correlation, is there a similarity with, with how you work with them versus how you work with, um, like, the mom or a performer? Mary Meyer [41:52]: Like, what are some things that are consistent- Mary Meyer [41:55]: ... with all of them? Linden Thorp [41:57]: Right. That's a good question. Yes. Leadership is, um, becoming really, um... Well, it's becoming really chaotic now because, um, leaders are burning out, teams are collapsing. Uh, you know, it... We can see it everywhere, uh, that leadership is just not working. Linden Thorp [42:20]: And-To me, I think it's had its day, in a way, leadership, because it's be- huge theoretical kind of machine almost. It's had its day because we are now in the digital era. We've got AI to help us, and we can now take time to become embodied and come back to the body to get balanced, uh, and become self-leaders. Linden Thorp [42:52]: So my work with leadership is always about self-leading first. Very often leaders are hired or, um, chosen, um, when they're not in any position to lead anyone. Though- Linden Thorp [43:08]: ... they may be showing a different performative, uh, face on that. Um, and of course that's another place that burnout starts, when the outer face differs from the inner reality. Linden Thorp [43:26]: That incongruity- Linden Thorp [43:28]: ... is very much often the cause of burnout. Mary Meyer [43:33]: Yes. Linden Thorp [43:33]: So that's my kind of firm belief that w- every leader needs to come back to that kind of basic self-leadership and getting to know themselves intimately. Um, and so I'm, I find I'm involved more and more with training, uh- Linden Thorp [43:54]: Yeah Linden Thorp [43:54]: ... potential leaders because I think the, the upcoming, um, generations now are really important because they're the future, you know? Linden Thorp [44:06]: ... and so yeah, I'm very much involved in training them from the word go. So I hope in the future that most leadership, uh, tracks will have an embodiment specialist so that, uh, they- Mary Meyer [44:22]: That'd be great Linden Thorp [44:22]: ... can get equal mix of theory, which seems to be the way it's usually taught, and embodiment so that we've got a balance there in the training programs. Mary Meyer [44:37]: Uh, so for a... let's say someone is in charge of picking the leaders in an organization. So if you're in charge and you have to pick, which maybe that's just, maybe it's coaches for Little League, or maybe it's the CEOs or whatever it has to be. Mary Meyer [44:55]: Uh, a parent- Mary Meyer [44:56]: ... has to delegate authority t- for different things to different kids. But what... Mary Meyer [45:02]: But specifically in business, let's say, but it could be other things, what, what should we be looking for in an embodied leader? What, what would that... What would be some things that would be showing if someone was being embodied? Linden Thorp [45:18]: It's a great, it's a great question. Um, I've been involved in hire, i- involved in hiring people, um, at university level, at hiring teachers and students for post-graduate programs and things like that. So of course I always looked for embodiment to see how balanced they were. Linden Thorp [45:41]: And yeah, it's not about qualifications. It's not about track record. It's about the actual ability of somebody to be here and now and authentic. Those are always the people I chose. So the people who, when I heard them speak, were very composed, perhaps not very showy, uh, quite, quite kind of quiet, lovely lengthened spine, breathing, not, you know, not breathing from the throat, but breathing very calmly s- from their diaphragm below the rib cage. Linden Thorp [46:25]: These are the things I would be watching for. Um, and they, their body posture in, in general. So, and their voice. Yes. Now that's a big area, but for me as a musician and as a, a body worker, the voice tells me- Mary Meyer [46:47]: Okay Linden Thorp [46:47]: ... so much. And so- Mary Meyer [46:50]: I wanna know, know so much about that, the voice. What is it? How does it tell you stuff? Linden Thorp [46:55]: Well, it's very fascinating because, um, you'll know having done some music training that, uh, w- musicians are very aware of, of pitch, pitch, uh, levels and pitch relationships and so on. And so when I listen to a voice, any voice really, I constantly see the range of vibrations. Linden Thorp [47:25]: Okay, so I can see, okay, this person, uh, is speaking in a very hollow way. Well, that's a bit suspect to begin with. But w- when I examine the range of pitch, it's maybe six or seven notes, okay? Someone who's truly embodied will have a much bigger range- Mary Meyer [47:45]: Wow Linden Thorp [47:45]: ... because their voice is actually connected to their body. So for example, the lower pitch ranges, like my voice. My voice is very c- has a very wide range, um, because I'm embodied. Um, and so what happens is that the vibrations that we put out through the voice, and if you think about this, uh, you'll get distracted. Linden Thorp [48:12]: If you feel it, you'll see what I mean. Because the voice is simply air going through, uh, the larynx and the vocal cords. The vocal cords vibrate when the air goes through.Okay. So if you're not breathing properly, if you're breathing very shallowly, then of course the vibrations are going to be very few and far between, uh, and rather weak. Linden Thorp [48:43]: Um, and if you are performing, there are going to be too many vibrations. Linden Thorp [48:51]: It's going to be too loud, too intense, like I'm, I'm speaking now. Um- Mary Meyer [48:56]: Yeah. That's good Linden Thorp [48:56]: ... so somebody who is really s- safe and comfortable in their bodies has this lovely easy range of pitch, um, and has just the right amount of air coming through their vocal cords so there's no, there are no shocks, and there are no moments at which they trail off so we can't hear them. Linden Thorp [49:21]: There's a consistency of pitch and air flow there. Uh, and then I've perfected, in my many years of practicing this, uh, being able to tell which part of the spine is perhaps in need of work from the voice. Because the spine is like a tuning fork, really- Mary Meyer [49:45]: Interesting Linden Thorp [49:45]: ... if it's used properly. Um, so if you're really using your spine in a good way, then your voice will have a head register, a chest register, a diaphragm register, and a lower body register. Really four areas. Linden Thorp [50:05]: Um, so I can hear straight away, wow, she's got problems with her low back. It's the bottom end of the spine. Oh, she's got a head problem. She's obsessed with the limited mind. Linden Thorp [50:19]: She's speaking from her head. And of course, in singing world, when we're... Uh, I, I taught singing for a number of years. Um, when we teach singing, we talk about the head register, the chest register, uh, the abdomen register, and we can use those techniques in singing. Linden Thorp [50:40]: So yeah, when somebody wo- starts to work with me, I ask them for a two-minute audio recording of their voice, uh, saying nothing special, saying anything they like, and then I sit and I really meditate on it, and I can tell. I can tell where the weaknesses are. Linden Thorp [51:00]: They might be in the throat, and so that's probably a head, neck, back problem, or they have a low back or maybe the diaphragm, and that's a, a, a br- a breathing problem, you know? So the voice really, if it's working properly, will, um, overcome every other thing because it's what people listening to you receive in a non-verbal way. Linden Thorp [51:32]: We don't, um, we don't make pronouncements about voices usually. Um, but we do get signals from the voice, and even if you're doing that unconsciously, and I teach people to be more conscious about those signals, but if you're doing it unconsciously, then, um, you are already reading that person before you've even begun to understand what they're saying. Linden Thorp [52:03]: It's the quality of the voice, the register, the tone that you're reading, and either you feel really comfortable with this person's voice or you don't. And, you know, that may turn, may, may mean you wi- you withdraw if it's not comfortable. If there's something- Mary Meyer [52:21]: Yeah Linden Thorp [52:22]: ... uh, n- not complete about it or insincere, we detect it. Body detects it long before the intellectual mind does, and long before meaning. Mary Meyer [52:34]: That's so fascinating. Yeah. Well, thank you, Linden. I appreciate you. And, um, I will catch you on LinkedIn. Linden Thorp [52:42]: Yeah. Thank you, Mary. I've loved it, and I, I really hope your audience, um, loves it too. And yeah, please, I'm here. Contact me whenever you can, and, uh, let's talk. Uh, that's how I'd always like to start any work. Yeah. Mary Meyer [52:59]: Yes. All right. Linden Thorp [53:00]: Okay. Mary Meyer [53:01]: Thank you. All right. Enjoy the rest of your beautiful day. Linden Thorp [53:04]: I will. Thank you, Mary. Bye. Mary Meyer [53:06]: Okay. Bye. Linden Thorp [53:06]: Thank you.