Latest / Practice Ground / John Small: The Human Magic AI Can't Replicate in Good Writing | Practice Ground Ep. 5
Transcript
- Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: So, John, thank you for joining, the Practice Ground podcast, I've been on your podcast a couple of times, ⁓ two times and I hope to be back at some point. ⁓ Nifemi Aluko: ⁓ yeah. You're you're you're a you're a a frequent whatever guest on my pod because you have great things to say and you're you're always doing lots of new things. But anyway, thank you for for finding me. You're one of my first listeners of my my right about ⁓ Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I know. You know, it's it's funny. we we have like, or at least for my I'll speak for myself, have like this, you know, that could be like a love-hate relationship with technology where at one point it's kind of like distracting you from all the things you might want to do, particularly like the internet, social media, right? And then on the other hand, the beauty is the ⁓ the fact that it can connect so many people because Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: I remember clearly, I was, you know, some people might know my journey, you know, grew up in Nigeria, the Nigerian jersey today. ⁓ and grew up in Nigeria, moved to the US, you know, undergrad, grad school, you know, lived in Austin, then moved, went to Stanford, all that kind of stuff. Then I started my business, moved back to Nigeria. And I was in Nigeria, I was writing this, my first book. And I was literally looking for like Nifemi Aluko: ⁓ I love that. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: motivation to like I was like let me check some podcasts to just find out about some writers, right? And you know, your podcast is now talk, right? But then ⁓ was right about now, right? Okay. ⁓ Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. No, I still have I still kept ⁓ both and maybe that was a bad bad bad choice. But these days I'm more focused on a next generation, which is called small talk. Yeah. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah, it's a small talk. I perfect. So, and I remember just listening to listening to the author's stories and those it just I I think the thing that kept coming back to me was just, you know, you're not alone. ⁓ Nifemi Aluko: Mm-hmm. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: People have similar struggles. And I remember for even for you, I think a big part of it was, hey, I also want to write a book, but let me talk to these other writers. So the podcast was this great. And then, you know, when I eventually wrote a book, I think I sent you a message like, Hey, I love your podcast, would love to come up. And I was actually surprised you responded. Because, you know, for someone for me, I was just like, Okay, this guy is all the way there doing this podcast, talking to all these people. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, exactly. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: and then you responded and I think that's just for me the other side of technology where it's just connecting people, right? And I think that's like the beauty of the age we're in. ⁓ then there's now the balance of okay, we're gonna be more connected possibly online, right? There's a chance we could get ⁓ you know kind of put in eco chambers ⁓ about Nifemi Aluko: Hmm. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: with our interests, right? becoming that there's a there's a chance that ⁓ be more of that. Maybe not, you know. I'm I'm keeping myself open. ⁓ want to be too pessimistic. ⁓ yeah ⁓ you know we're going into a phase where we're using a of artificial intelligence which has been around as a technology for some time, but generative AI Nifemi Aluko: Right, who knows? Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Just recently has made it more, well, I say mainstream, particularly when it comes to disrupting creative work or, you know, work that people thought, like, ⁓ the white collar jobs will kind of be safe, right? So I think that's where a lot of the panic is. we thought was intellectual work that was primarily a very human thing, right? It's been has become Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Well, it's so interesting because somebody was saying, like, you know, w I think we always imagined robots would be like folding our laundry so we could do the creative work. But actually what's ended up happening is we it's doing the creative work and then the the the folding the laundry is actually much harder to do apparently with robots. so it's actually taken over the creative work or at least it's trying to. And Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah. Exactly. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, it's all backwards. And it's funny that it's come after one of the first sort of things that it's come after is not the sort of manual labor work that we thought it was gonna be taking over. And I'm sure it is taking over that to some degree, but it really is like you say, it's come after some of the white collar or I or even the the creative endeavors. ⁓ yeah, I mean, I'm I'm concerned about it, but I haven't seen anything good enough yet to think, God, I'm gonna be out of work in a day. ⁓ Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. So what what's your take? What was your like those big take? Like, do you think it's ⁓ are we moving in a positive direction? ⁓ particularly let's even just look at writing, right? As a writer, and someone that has been in the industry, you've you've worked in publishing houses, you've edited, what is your take about the direction this technology is? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I yeah. I mean, look, I I know there's some writers that are just will not use AI or terrified of it or just think of it as an existential threat to their career. And I feel like those are the people who don't actually use AI because they're they just hear about it or they maybe they've used it one or two times. But if you actually use it, like I do, I you realize that it's really more of a tool than a weapon. And you know, I used it You know, I use it every day and I use it to help me brainstorm. I use it to help me edit. I use it pr ⁓ as a sounding board. It's kind of like a writing partner for me. ⁓ so I and I still feel like if you don't know how to prompt it and don't know how to work with it, then it really is something that would be very scary. so I think the writers that will succeed are the writers that know how to work with it, but don't let it write everything for them. I I Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: To me it's still and maybe, you know, I'm in the minority, it's still to me so obvious when AI has written a story. Like I there's so many telltale signs. And if you work again, if you work enough with it, you know all the telltale signs 'cause you know what it does because I I use it every day. So I know how it thinks. I know how it how it what what its proclivities are. And so I think it needs a human to guide it. ⁓ it will never ⁓ repres it will never replicate the authentic human experience. It it it you know, you can never it can never be me because it doesn't know my experience. It doesn't know my stories. It doesn't know my it has, you know, now at this point it has some sense of my style a little bit. I've noticed like it it tries to do things in my style, but it's usually kind of off. And so, you know, but at least it kind of goes in the right direction. So it's like super rough first draft sometimes. But again, I i ⁓ it takes me, even working with AI, just as long to write as it Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Story. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: as it ever did. I it's not making it that much easier for me. ⁓ but it but it is taking out some of the n ⁓ the grunt work that I never enjoyed really, like for example, transcribing or typos, like cr ⁓ to copy editing. Like I'm not a great, you know, I'm for somebody who's worked in this business for thirty years, I'm not really that good at you I make a lot of mistakes, like a lot of grammatical mistakes, which is amazing to me. I just, you know, I don't know if I have Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: Maybe I'm dyslexic or something, but I can't. I'm not, but it feels like I am sometimes. I miss things, you know. And then I'll just go and I'll say, hey, do a typo check. And it's just like like right away. And then so I'm handing in really good, you know, I'm uploading really clean, clean copy. ⁓ so I, you know, it ha so I'm, you know, listen, my son is a musician. He's very much like you. He's, you know, wants to be a ⁓ a musical artist. He's now in school in London studying music. And ⁓ I sometimes worry about Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah. Copy yep. Nifemi Aluko: its effect on music, you know, but he has the same impression that he can tell when AI has done something. He's not really that interested in working with AI because it takes out all the fun. so, you know, here's my take. I it ⁓ thing I've noticed recently, and this this gave me some semblance of peace. you know how like, you know, I when I was coming up in professional, like when I was in my 30s, there was all the ⁓ right before and during YouTube, there was all these videos that would come out, cat videos and funny videos with animals. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: And everybody, you know, would share those videos and people love those videos. and there was something fun about, you know, and you would get lost in the rabbit hole of just looking at cute cat videos or whatever it was that you were interested in, or even funny videos of people falling off of skateboards or whatever it was, right? Those what that was the thing. So recently, I'm sure you've noticed on my feed, there's a ton of these videos that are AI generated that are those videos, but they're AI generated now. It's like ⁓ cute video of a seal, but you can it's not real. And it's taken to me, even though Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, I know. Yep. Nifemi Aluko: It's taken all the fun out of that experience of dis of finding videos because now you're like, is that real or is not real? And if it's not real, then it's not interesting. And so I feel like it's the same gonna be the same experience with reading a book. Like if you find out a human didn't really read that write that book, it's just it doesn't it takes away the the it loses its magic. And I can't even describe what that magic is in words. It's just ⁓ something about the human experience touching something. It's like the difference between Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. It loses his magic in that moment. Right. Nifemi Aluko: Between watching an AI pet video and a real pet video. They could be the same thing, but there's something about the realness of this really happened and somebody captured it in a moment rather than somebody figured it out on a computer how to make all of a sudden a a a kangaro kick a ⁓ Halloween decoration. I saw these ⁓ remember those Halloween, it was like kangaroos in k in in Australia k kicking like ⁓ pumpkin decorations and stuff. And it was like back in the day you would see that and ⁓ my god, that's great. Now you're like, ⁓ it's AI fake, fake, fake, fake, fake. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah. Yeah. That's hilarious. Yeah, I know. Nifemi Aluko: And it's not interesting. So I feel like I don't know what the analogy I'm but that's kind of what I'm seeing is that that's what I think is gonna happen is that people are gonna be very aware of when something is AI and it's just not gonna be that interesting, ⁓ as interesting to them. And people are already getting sick of it. And so, you know, it and and people are like, Well, well, someday it's gonna write just like a human. I'm like, it can never really write just like a human because it's still a machine and there's still the experience that a human knows another human. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah. Yeah. I know. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Exactly. And hey John, you you touch on so many points. I'm not I'm like trying to, you know, find where where I even want to start. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now on the other side, I'm like, ooh, okay. No, so you know, ⁓ couple of things. you mentioned something about as a writer, like you're still taking all that time to write, right? Even though you're using this tool, right? And I watched a video recently. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Sorry. I do this. Now you know it's like to be on the other side. See I'm always doing the interviewing. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: It was like this old ⁓ video of Steve Jobs while he was at Pixar, right? So they're just like released Toy Story and everything. And he was he he he mentioned something about even though computing and they have these laptops and everything, because Pixar was doing something, yeah, emerging Silicon Valley, Hollywood, right? In a way, right? and what was saying was Nifemi Aluko: Hmm. Okay. Mm-hmm. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Even though they have like fifty times, hundred times computing power compared to what Disney had, right? The it was still taking before it was taking three hours to make one single frame. And then it was like, but even though they had all this computing power, the people making the frames still were taking three hours to make a single frame. And for him, he said something that was like, Man, why aren't people like watching like this guy is like Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: what they put as like the pedestal of like okay technology and all that kind of stuff and he was like man regardless of the computing power and how that is increasing from visual perspective ⁓ our ambition just keeps rising right so even though we have these tools we're just gonna try and you know that artist is still gonna spend three hours saying how far can I push this tool? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Right. And I feel like the same thing might is kind of what you're saying with writing is I know how to write and you know I'm gonna spend two hours trying to craft this idea, but now that I have this thing that makes research faster or structuring faster, great, I'm just gonna push it to the max, but still spend the two hours writing. Which yeah, yeah, yeah. Which then ties to the point that you said maybe with your son. Nifemi Aluko: It still needs you, yeah. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: ⁓ I feel this strongly that when you're creating stuff you're not necessarily you really it's not necessarily about the output sometimes except it's a job and you just need to knock stuff out but when you're creating stuff is more about the process and I like as much as I use AI, I use it to write, I use it for visual stuff, I still want to be in this flow state of creating stuff, right? you know, even with music, if you have to be going back and forth prompting, it's not it's no longer as enjoyable as just jamming out with your friends. ⁓ ⁓ there's the part where I feel like the the person creating still wants to be in that state of what I'll call of flow state, right? Where you know when you're writing and everything just kind of just disappears and you're just you're just there. Nifemi Aluko: That's what I've heard, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, disappears. It's it's like a drug. It's the best. And it's hard to get in that state. I mean, that's I think why people write, you know. And then that's why when you're writing and somebody tries to interrupt you and you're like, stop. I'm always telling my wife, like, you don't understand how hard it is to get into this flow state. Now you're trying to get me to like take the garbage out. And it's like and I remember this, my dad was a creative, he was a composer, and I never understood this when I was a kid. And he used to yell at me when I would because he worked from home and I would Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah. Yeah, let's get out of here. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: you know, be talking too loud in the next room or something and be like, ⁓ and now I know why, 'cause he was in his skull state and I was messing it up. Yeah. And it's hard for creators and that's why they're so difficult when, you know, when you interrupt ⁓ Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: How you know. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, for me, I think that's until like we find ways and that's what I'm working on. I need the the tool to put me in a flow state. If I have to be paying this what I call a switching cost every time, I prompt, I come back, what did they say? Go come back. It's already disrupting the flow. And way I've been using it recently is more like as an editor, right? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: ⁓ I write, I make sure I do my writing, the stuff I enjoy, and then I put it in to make sure is it is it aligned with the brand, right? Is it aligned with my voice? is it does it have the rebellious edge that I like to include, right? ⁓ And actually have something in my prompt that says, please do not rewrite, just give me your editing opinion. ⁓ Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, I hate when it I hate when it rewrites. And it it just its default is to rewrite. And then I know like, don't rewrite. And then or I'm like, don't and if you're gonna make us ends, don't use a freaking ⁓ dash and don't do everything in threes, triads like this, this, and this. That's like a telltale. But anyway, yeah, I mean there's so many things I tell it not to do. But you know what, it it you mentioned research. I I use a f I mean even today I was I just finished an article which I just published on Substack, which was about how Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah, I thought it was like, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Nifemi Aluko: ⁓ advertisers don't market to Gen Z that much because they don't for many different reasons. But in the course of writing that I was just kind of in a flow state and then I was like it was like and then I thought, well, what's an example of an advertiser, like a failed advertising campaign towards Gen Z? And I was trying to think of like my own like I like, Well, I couldn't think of any you know, it's a while ago, like what happened the eighties and nineties I was trying to think of like Whizer. And then I just typed in like into chat, like, Hey, can you give me some examples of of Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: you know, fail like ad campaigns that were very targeted gen that that were total flops. And it it gave come up like six, you right away, immediately six examples. And then it was like, that's a great use of AI. Cause now I go back, you know, and it would have taken me, I don't know, like, you know, hours maybe to have found that stuff. I found it quickly. And then I do research to make sure it's real. And then I'm like, ⁓ that's a great example. And then it's like have this thing. And so like to me, that's just where we're using, we're kind of working hand in hand. And I don't feel like I'm cheating. I'm just it's just like a shortcut to get me there. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Thank you. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nifemi Aluko: ⁓ and so I don't know what I would have done back in before AI because now it's like we're such in a post AI world, like it's just a reality now. It's like just like imagine working without the internet. But I agree with you, the rituals, the process of writing for me is still what matters. I'm hoping yeah I guess that the the sign will be like when people if people start writing books that were entirely written by AI or going to movies that were entirely created by AI, and they can't tell the difference, they don't care. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Just here. It's here. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: Then I guess we are in trouble because I mean, what can you do? But I don't see that's not happened yet. I mean, the closest I've seen that and again we're still in the nascent stages here, but still I don't see that happening because I the closest we can see is like, you know, what is some of the c the the s AI slop that's on the internet. And then like there's apparently been some songs that have come out that are like they use, you know, an artist's voice and then you can't tell the difference between like they there was their Drake AI song that came out. Like Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep, yep, yep, yep, that's a while back. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, I mean it sounded a lot like Drake and it did sound like a Drake song, but it wouldn't have been a hit Drake song. Like it's easy to copy it. Copy his style and stuff, but it wouldn't have been a hit. It was just a song. ⁓ so yeah. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah. But you know, John, you know, this is me just being like, you know, plain devil's advocate, right? And ⁓ I remember I had the same conversation, you know, I used to work with this company, ⁓ Deep Learning AI. And they do a lot of like AI courses and education. and to write a weekly newsletter to like developers, right? So kind of be kind of ingrained with the people that are building out this technology. Nifemi Aluko: Devil's advocate. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: And I was having a conversation with the editor of the newsletter. we were going back and forth. He's also someone that loves music, right? and I think you guys really get along. he he a writer in New York, you know, so kind of a little old school. So we're having this conversation, and I was like, I was like, would it matter? Like if you went to a concert, right? And they're like, hey guys, this is like a new daft punk. Nifemi Aluko: Mm-hmm. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Kind of guys, they wear their helmets, they don't want anybody to see them. They pull out they pull the curtain. You only see like their movements in the back. And they play the music, and the music is amazing. You're dancing, you're having fun with your friends. You're like, man, those guys are great. Where are they from? Are they French? Like what? You know, you're saying all this stuff. And then at the end, they're like, by the way, these were actually robots and it was AI created, right? You're Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. It was all ⁓ Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: It gave you the same feeling of being in the club. It engaged your senses. it made you feel connected to your friends. Is there w what's the harm like what's the harm in that? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. I mean, ⁓ you make a good point. It's like if you're having a great experience and it was AI generated, is it is there anything wrong with it? I mean, to me, like just to use Daft Punk, like there is something to this for me as a fan of Daft Punk, of the story that it's French and that these guys the reason they wear the helmets and like the influences and so like to me, just having a robot do that wouldn't would kind of take away the experience of it a little bit because I because I'm bringing it Because more than just the experience viscerally of of like being in a club and dancing to it, it's also I know who they are. I'm into like their their background. I understand. So like maybe I'm kind of a a super fan in a way, not a super big daft punk, but I to me that's part of it for me. Like I need to know a little bit about the music. It's like going to an art museum and you could look at a painting and be like, that's beautiful. But unless you really know a little bit about ⁓ Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. The story. Nifemi Aluko: story, the artist, what they were going for, that changes the whole experience. That's why sometimes when I go to museums, I like to listen to like I like to listen to the I like to know a little bit of context of what I'm looking for. So AI could recreate a ⁓ a Van Gogh probably, but it wouldn't be really the same because it doesn't have its doesn't have the whole story behind it. So yeah, I mean again it's ⁓ maybe a lot of it has to do with the people consuming it. And if they just don't care, then Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: You know, like if if I just want a Daft Punk song, I don't care anything about their history. I don't care if they're real people or not. You know, I just think eventually people are gonna get tired of it. I'm seeing it already in the internet. They're they're already tired of the fake videos. It could be the exact same video that we normally see. They're just tired of it. It's just not fun when it's not real. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yeah. And what do you think that is? Is it more of Being able to think like, ⁓ that was a real moment, and someone captured that there's beauty in that, or is it what is it? Because let me give you another example. We're watching ⁓ a show on Netflix, right? This was just last week. And I spotted a scene where there was a lady that that was talking, right? And they were kind of chaining the scene back and forth. And there was a scene where her both her hair was down across her shoulder, right? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: They flipped to the other guy, they flipped back, her hair was behind, right? Yeah, yeah. And then they flip. I know they need to fix that. Anyway, I'm not gonna, I won't mention the name of the show just so that nobody gets in trouble. But ⁓ it happened twice, and all of a sudden, the magic the magic is gone because now I'm like, ⁓ man, I'm watching as a movie, man. Like, but before that, I was a Nifemi Aluko: Right. That's called continuity. Yeah, it's a cont there's somebody in charge of that, by the way, on the set who met missed it. Yeah. In trouble. I'm sure they've already Mm. You're in yeah, you're it's a movie. You're watching s actors rather. Yeah. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: really into it. I was really into the story, everything. Right. But after like that episode passed, I got back into it. But in that moment I lost. That magic was like gone. Right. Because all of a sudden it's like, ⁓ yeah. Is it is that the reason why people would prefer like that serendipity like, ⁓ that was magical that a random kangaroo came and kicked the ⁓ pumpkin. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. It takes you out of it. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: versus this AI generated fake. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Because there it there ha and again, I'm not a psychologist, but there has to be something in the way that humans are designed that we there's a kind of ⁓ we like to be surprised and we like to feel like we were there and we like to and and if somebody just made it up and it's not real, then it's kind of like just takes a like you say, you keep saying the magic. There's something there's something magical about in real life, you know, the IRL thing ⁓ that can't be fabricated by a Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: By a machine. you know, in some cases it can. I'm not saying that AI is going to always flop. I'm sure AI will write at some point, A will AI will probably write a best selling book. ⁓ but will it write all the best selling books? I I don't I don't know. And it will, it depends what kind of book it is. AI could probably write a best selling book, like a how-to book, like on business or something, like where it's very like ⁓ ro know, ⁓ road Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yep. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: I mean, a of these books are for very formulaic anyway. I you know. ⁓ so it could probably write that tomorrow. I mean, I thought about I've thought about that. Like I should just have AI write a book on Gen X for me, you know, like real fast and just boom, put it out there so I have a book. And I'm sure a lot of people are doing that. but I would never do that because my whole brand is my my own personal experience. ⁓ and also I'm a writer, but also just my own it's I always try to bring my own experience into my writing and a AI would never be able to do that. So Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yep, exactly. Yeah. Brand. Yeah, that's very important. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: ⁓ you know, there's gonna be instances. I just think that people are going to lose it's like a new shiny thing right now, and people are just going to lose interest. Now, if you're having AI write a contract for you, you know, ⁓ like to me, like yes, that might be something where AI completely replaces ⁓ the paralegal, whoever was doing that before. I mean, ⁓ because that's just Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Hmm. ⁓ perfect. Nifemi Aluko: You can teach it to do that. That's why all the coders are freaking out because you can teach AI to write code. you know, I was just reading today that people are sp now they're not majoring in code, they're majoring in AI now. ⁓ like people actually that that's what that's what the college campus is. They're studying AI, not code. or maybe there is code in AI because I know nothing about that side of of anything. But point being that the things that AI can do, nobody wants to study anymore. Like, do do Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: equally are better than humans. But still writing a novel, doing a podcast, writing a really good movie, writing a great hit song, I just don't see it. I don't see it not only because it it can't do it as good as humans, but also because humans themselves will not consume it in the same way knowing that And I'm not sure what it is. I feel like now it now you made me want to write an essay on this 'cause this is really an interesting essay. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: In the same way. I I see. I ⁓ Yeah, yeah, I mean it could be this this is the whole point of the of the you know. Yeah ⁓ Nifemi Aluko: Well, this is how I come up with my ideas. Yeah. It's like, you know, conversation. I mean, so much for creative people, it's there's so much in your head all the time. it's, you know, if you don't go to therapy or, you know, if you don't that's why I think maybe there is an advantage of sometimes talking to an AI, even though it's a robot, is just you're getting it out of your head. Yeah. ⁓ and then kind of trying to like get it get it into the get it onto literally onto the page or into that chat bar. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yep. Get it out. Get it out. You know, whack. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: And it helps. It helps me. I don't know. Maybe that's my process is I need to talk things through because I have a lot of thoughts. But until until they're in ⁓ writing or they're ⁓ and that's why morning pages is also work for me, which is a a process of in the morning just writing freehand, because it's just getting the the stuff in your brain into onto the page. Yeah. Manifesting it. Yeah. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Same. Yeah. So you can see it and reflect. Yeah. So Jonathan, like, you know, you're a writer, you've been around a lot of writers, right? How do you know an idea has meaning? Like when do you come like, okay, there's something here. Nifemi Aluko: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, that's really a good question. And I wish I knew the answer. I mean, I doubt so many of my ideas. I don't think you really know an idea has meaning until you actually put it into like we're saying, you put it onto the page, you start writing it as song. It i you don't know an idea has meaning until you start ⁓ engaging with that idea. Cause again, you can't solve anything while it's still up in your head. And you know, what I find and what I found in talking to a lot of creative people is the thing that you start out doing the intention you start out doing often changes when you're in the process of creating that art. So the me you find the meaning in the in the process, ⁓ in the creative process. And sometimes it's completely different than what you thought it was going to be. In fact, most of the time it is. You might start a project and think you're doing something about A, and then all of a sudden it's Z and you don't even know how you got there, but you you got there because you started it. That's why I always encourage myself and my students to Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: Just start it. Whatever it is you want to do, it and don't keep doing do a paralysis and what is analysis paralysis where you keep saying, Well, I could do it this way, or I could do it this way, or I could do it. You it's like that could just you could do that for hours and days and years and and your whole lifetime spending, you know. And I think it's just get it moving and then ⁓ the answer will come. So I think that's how you find meaning. And of course, you know, meaning can mean different things to different people. but Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah. Thinking about Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, that's how I've found it. And then you have a gut check. You know, you're like, okay, this if it resonates for me, you have to trust your own instincts. And if it resonates for you, then it probably will resonate for others. Now, the opposite is if you're doing it and you think it's and you think it's gonna resonate for others, or you're doing it for other people, like you're saying, ⁓ this is the kind of thing that such and such fans would like, or something like this is a oftentimes those kinds of ideas don't actually do that well or don't Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: Because you're not it's not coming from you. It's you're trying to you're you're guessing at what other people might like. ⁓ and this is hard. I mean, I this is a real challenge creative people have is that you're always writing for somebody else a lot of times. But you have to try to write for yourself and try to write from your own experience. I that helps a lot for to find Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I found like ⁓ two sides of you know the coin for me ⁓ you know music is a place for me this just pure I keep it as a hobby. I've never tried to monetize my music because I'm just purely like this is I don't care who likes this stuff. I'm just I'm making it, yeah. I it sometimes, you know, I l just listen to my own stuff, right? And it's purely for that personal enjoyment. Nifemi Aluko: Right. I like it. Mm-hmm. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: writing I found I I dabble on both sides because as a business person, I'm also very where's the demand, right? I have to almost understand okay, where's demand for stuff that I'm trying to build? Right. Writing exactly. Writing is the one that cuts both sides of where it starts off as creative work, but then I s I try to switch into Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Mm. What problem am I solving, right? Or yeah. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Two modes, right? I I always say I write for myself, but I edit for the audience, right? So I write just freely, blah blah blah, all my stuff. And then when I'm editing, I'm more thinking of is the story helping someone else? Maybe cut that out. am I trying to say here? Like people don't have all ⁓ the time in the world, and if I mean like nobody wants to hear that, cut that out, right? So I almost have to wear these two hats. Nifemi Aluko: Okay, yeah. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Do you find yourself you've been an editor yourself? Do you find that they're two different hats? ⁓ Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, I know what you mean. I mean, I because oftentimes you're not really writing for yourself. You are writing for, you know, a different publication or you're writing for your substack, whatever it is, and there is an audience and you sort of know what the expectations of the audience are. I mean, the perfect job is that it is that it doesn't the audience is you, and so you're writing for yourself. But I the reality is in professional endeavors, you're oftentimes writing for somebody else's audience. So I do. I I write for like what's true to me, but then like Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: I have to tailor it to what I think my audience would be into. So, you know, if I'm writing for Entrepreneur Magazine, I know that the audience is generally entrepreneurs. So they're thinking in terms of like, how is this advice going to help me in my career make money and be successful? And so if you're just writing about how great this other entrepreneur was and how he made all this or she made all this money, nobody cares because Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: Nobody wants to read, or at least entrepreneur readers don't want to read about just somebody who's successful. They want to read about how they overcame their challenges to be successful. Yeah. So, you know, so I do tailor it thinking about things like that. That's for entrepreneurs. So I can't just write it for myself. I have to think about the entrepreneurials. And now even with the Substack stuff that I'm doing, which is small talk these days, which is about Gen X, you know, I know that most of my readers are probably going to be in that generation. So I think about them. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. How they can apply it, yeah exactly. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: in terms of you know how I frame my stories, how the story ideas that I have. Now it's not that hard for me because I am Gen X. So it's like kind of writing for myself. and that one has actually been a lot more natural to my own which is kind of freeing for me, ⁓ in a way, because pretty much 95% of the stuff that I write is for somebody else. ⁓ So in terms of just it's just for a different audience that's not necessarily me. I mean look, I'm a guy who worked for women's magazines for five years. I Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: I mean I spent my entire career writing for somebody who isn't me. I mean I had you write for a woman's magazine. I'm I'm a guy Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Yeah, how did you how did you wait? How did you do that? I've heard about that. Nifemi Aluko: I don't know. I ha still don't know why or how I did that. ⁓ I mean one thing I did is I always found my niche within a women's magazine of like how can I bring my experience to a woman that would be s valuable for her. So it I was I always would become the advice columnist because they were always really curious about what guys thought about things. So that was my in. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Yeah, the male perspective. Okay. Yep. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: But I sometimes would get I would get a sign I remember getting a signed stories that had nothing, you know, I remember one time I got a signed story about a woman who got colon cancer. And I thought, like, ⁓ that has nothing to do with me, but you know, I still knew how to write a story that was a a good human interest story that would appeal to people's sense of, you know, ⁓ compassion and and ⁓ you know, just like it was a story is a good story is a good story, you know, whether a woman or a man reading it, like it still had all same rules. So Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Inferno, minimal. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, but I but I'm a guy who really has done a lot. Now I don't know if that's advisable. I I I don't know. Like that's the the path my career took. And, you know, sometimes I look back and I'm like, well, maybe I should have just written for myself more. And who knows what it would have been a different a career, maybe. But you know, I'm also practical and I w I knew that in order for me to make money, I needed to figure out where the market was and how to like write for that market. So Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Nifemi Aluko: I'm always really I have to say, you know, all these people that I've had on my podcast over the years, the people who just wrote, like didn't have any assignments, like just wrote a book, a novel, even like not even enough fiction, but like you've written novels too. Like a novel, which is like really it's not even I mean, it's just like all imagination and all you just you're you're creating the world and and and you didn't, you know, most of these people didn't have an editor, they didn't have a Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: book contracts and they didn't have an agent. Like just to sit down and write that book, I that to me is admirable. And that's really hard. And if you can do that, you're a step ahead of where I was, that's for sure. and ⁓ so I forgot what I was talking about. But anyway, I feel like that that is that's how I found that's how I was able to write for that's how I think of writing for myself and writing for other people. Yeah. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no. I like Writing and editing. And yeah. And for you, obviously I've kind of followed your journey and you know, even the you know, you get getting into your own with the Gen X ⁓ writing and podcast and all Substack. When did your work begin to feel like okay, this is my work? When did it feel like yours? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Yeah, I mean ⁓ it I definitely let's see. I think at that started when I started writing. So when I first started my career, I was writing for a parenting magazine, right? And now I was twenty two years old. I didn't know anything about parenting. I so that was so out of my realm of experience. But I shared a floor at the time with this magazine called YM, which was Young Miss, which was a teen magazine. And they asked me to do what we were just talking about. They asked me to write stories about what guys think about such and such. Like why do guys, you know, do this and why do guys do like inside the guy brain basically, like like decoding men's behavior. And and that was so liberating for me. That was really fun because it was like now I I you know, I was writing about maybe myself five years earlier, you know, because I wasn't teenager at that time, but I wasn't that far from being a teenager. So I could still relate to that. And that was the first time where I started like having fun writing where it was like, okay, I'm writing about, you know, like stuff that I think about that that Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: useful to women and that is fun to write. And I had a lot of fun with it. I remember I wrote I had one time I wrote a ⁓ a letter, like a letter that a guy wrote to a woman, but then it had all these footnotes about what he really what he's writing but what he actually means. it's like every line like you know this word, ⁓ actually what he means is this. And it was like decoding literally decoding his text like this is actually what it means. This is what he said and this is what it means. And that was really fun. It was fun. It was a fun idea it was a fun so that's when I started really But it wasn't until really recently that ⁓ with this small talk where like it was I'm just writing about whatever is on my mind. and it doesn't matter whether people, you know, and I'm not getting paid really paid that much to do it because at this point I just have subscribers and you know, I I give away most of my stuff for free. So it's whatever's on my mind, whatever I'm thinking about. ⁓ that has been pretty freeing for me. But even but Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: You know, I must say, and I've say this a lot, that creative people also like to have don't like to have unlimited freedom like that. I I actually like parameters and I like guide bra guardrails because otherwise, like I said, I have a million thoughts. It helps me to focus. And I think a lot of creative people feel like they don't want to have just unlimited freedom. They want to be told, Okay, ⁓ writing a love story or what you you're writing a a f ⁓ Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah, easy. Nifemi Aluko: a story, a sci-fi story and you have to follow the rules of sci-fi, whatever it is like you're writing, I think that actually so I have even given even in that experience of writing for Gen X, I've I've given myself sort of artificial guardrails. And and I've used AI, this is a good use for AI. I actually had AI go through all my stories and I said, Hey, based on the headlines, based on, you know, what you you see my data, what is, what would you say are some of the things that are really resonating with my audience? like what are topics that Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Uh-huh. Yep. I did that too recently. Yep. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: That I did you do that? It's really helpful. I mean, it wasn't that surprising, but it but it kind of put it out there and I was like, okay. So it's like did basically did a Google analytics, you know, on my on my stuff. And and it was really interesting. Now, some of it was kind of depressing because it's like well, it it's sort of like, ⁓ yeah, rage rage works, by the way, you know, rage bait, right? Being angry frustrated by things. Yeah. ⁓ Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Okay. Get more angry. Put pour some more fuel on on your anger. Nifemi Aluko: Be be more angry. Yeah. Get I mean, and and that is, you know, it's a little secret of the internet is that people click on stuff that that that that's polarizing that makes them mad. Now, I'm not like intentionally but it was interesting because the first post I ever wrote that really was the the origin story of small talk was a res an angry response to a New York Times article about Gen X. And that was my that was up until that point. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Horizon, yeah, all that. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. Nifemi Aluko: Everything on small talk was just whatever was on my mind. It was probably a lot about writing because that's what I was writing a lot about. And it would never do that. It would do okay, but it would never get like more than 10 likes, you know. And all of a sudden I've got this article out there that has a thousand more than a thousand likes, like hundreds of comments. And I was like, Whoa, I must have tapped into something here. And then I tried another story where I was equally angry about something else. And then that one did really well. And I was like, ⁓ God. So I wasn't. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. And he Yeah. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: It wasn't like I was manipulating it and just trying to be angry. I mean, I was frustrated by things. Like I'm frustrated by ageism and I am frustrated by the way people think of my generation. ⁓ so it's not totally it's not inauthentic, but boy, you can manipulate it if you want to. ⁓ luckily, AI told me that that wasn't the only kind of story that does well for me. So ⁓ it's not the only. But it did give me like, okay, here are the five buckets of stories that tend to do pretty well for you. Now go and, you know, think of ideas around that. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Mm. Yeah. Okay. Nifemi Aluko: Those buckets, you know. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah. Yeah. So the kind of like pillars, content pillars. And yeah. So how do you how would you advise people like they're writing that are going through a young writer, right? I think one thing I notice that people sometimes come to me and say, they want to start writing about their business on LinkedIn or whatever it is, and they're like, ⁓ the main drawback is I don't want to be phony, right? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, content pillars. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: And that's what everybody feels. I do not want to be phony. I felt it too. And you want to be as yeah, yeah, dude, I don't really have anything to say, you know, whatever it is. ⁓ the is you almost have to find your voice, right? And people people now are coming to me saying, ⁓ man, I really like what you write about. And I'm still there saying, Okay, like what is to be honest, what is my voice? I'm still trying to figure Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Imposter syndrome. Yeah. Right. You do a lot you create a lot of different type of content you do. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: That out. Yeah. So so you know, for you, do you have like how do you nurture your voice as a writer? And what what does that even mean? Like, that your voice is shining through. I'm sure you've read some stuff, and as an editor, and you're like, ⁓ this this person definitely wrote this. I hear their voice. What does that even mean? And how do you nurture that? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Yeah. I mean I think well I sometimes I tell people who ask me about voice. I'm like, until you have your own voice, sometimes you should just imitate somebody else's voice. So, you know, I mean David Bowie used to always say, you know, I he has a famous quote and I can't of course I can't remember it out loud, but it's like something about like, you know, great artists steal kind of thing. So Yeah, yeah. Like and so the idea, like I think early on I was probably channeling Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yep, feel like an artist. Nifemi Aluko: you know, like JD Salinger, catcher in the Rye, like some of the my i influences ⁓ over the years, and I don't even remember who now because it's been such a long time since I've, you know, but I used to copy sort of other people's writing style, you know, until I until it kind of became my own. I think that's a good weird place to start. Like if there's some business writer you like or whatever, or some journalist you like, or some novelist or whatever, start like kind of just imagine you're channeling their voice. Like nobody's gonna say, ⁓ you're just a cheap imitation. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: You know, that's a good way to to start. And again, you have to do it because you're not gonna figure it out in your head. You have to just write shit. ⁓ and then hope that, you know, and and you're gonna fail. you know, I always advise don't like just keep editing yourself. Like just put it out there, put a draft, you know, write it write a write a ⁓ a draft where you're just kind of like just letting your whole ⁓ you everything that's in your head just out on the page. and then they can go back and edit it. And a lot of people for a lot of people writing is ⁓ rewriting. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Exactly. Nifemi Aluko: I'm somebody who, you know, I that is good advice. I don't totally follow that. I wish I did. I I do sometimes edit as I go, but that's just because I know myself and I know that, you know, I like to have things pretty good as I'm going. I like that. But everybody it has a different style. But anyway, the the point is at least I'm writing. And I think you need to so to find your voice, you first need to articulate your voice. It needs to be out on the page. It needs to be out in the music. It needs to be whatever it is your medium is, it needs to be on the canvas. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah, yep, yep, yep. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: And then, you know, again, imitate in the beginning. ⁓ if you need to, like do your best impression of whatever writer you like. And then eventually you'll find it. And I think I don't think there's one day you're like, that's my voice. I just think it's there. Like now I do have a voice. I would never I wouldn't be able to tell you the moment that I it happened, but I know that it's happened over the years. You know, it's definitely has like a there's a kind of a humor there. It it's hard for me to be really like super earnest in my writing because it's just not my style. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: I have been criticized sometimes of like, you know, ⁓ you always try to make things funny. And it's just it's just the way I write. I mean, I've never written you know, like I'm just not it doesn't come naturally to me and and and ⁓ so but I but ⁓ you know, but I will write about serious topics, but I usually put a little bit of a humorous spin on it. Or kind of a dark, like a dark humor kind of thing. So that's just my style and I have a voice and it's like Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, some comedy in there. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: You know, and unfortunately AI is sort of thinks it's no in my voice. So sometimes when it's like tell giving me suggestions, it's like, no, dude. Like it thinks like, Yeah, just stop. It's just like it thinks I do a lot of short sentences and I do a lot of like self deprecating stuff and whatever. It's funny when it tries to imitate me. But I know that people, you know, famous people sometimes will say, Write this in my voice and they're kind of surprised. ⁓ like what it will do. ⁓ yeah, but anyway, so that's kind of I think that's how you find your voice. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah, stop. Mm-hmm, mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, cool, cool. How d how do you, you know, with AI and you know, things changing, moving fast, rapidly, how do you stay aligned with your taste or values in a noisy environment? Because we're we're in the era of noise and I f believe the people that would cut through are the ones that kind of know how to shield the noise ⁓ ⁓ Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think you're I mean, this is a constant struggle with me. ⁓ for me. you know, I'm like anybody else. I I fall into a kind of sometimes a doom scrolling kind of rabbit hole thing where I will open up my Instagram thinking that I'm just taking a five minute break and then an hour later I'm like still ⁓ the couch scrolling through my Instagram. And you know, ⁓ we all know and we've learned it a thousand times, these things are designed to ⁓ you Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yep. Keep you there. Yep. Nifemi Aluko: Right. I mean, they are and they play on every trick of human of the human brain. And so I think the best thing you can do is just make a practice of just not picking up your phone, giving yourself rules about, you know, again, I wish I can practice what I preach here, but I am pretty good about like I'll put on focus, you know, mode sometimes on my computer when I know that I really just need to write. even if it's like 45 minutes, I'm gonna be like, I'm gonna just write for 45 minutes, I'm not gonna pick up my phone. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: I'm not going to let my phone distract me. I'm not even going to break to do a research, you know, because that would put me down a rabbit hole. Like if I'm writing and then I'm saying all of a sudden, ⁓ but wait, why was that? Yeah. And then all of a sudden you're back on the internet and you're freaking. So I mean, I have friends and I have done this where it's like, I'll just put like, you know, I'll be writing and I'll just put like research this year. You know, like I won't do the research at that moment. I'll just like leave it to like to to be continued. Yeah, like a note to myself. But I think it's really important to Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Mm. No. Let me quickly check this, yeah. Like a note to yourself. Nifemi Aluko: consciously like put the phone away. The phone is the is the is the the door to terrible It's terrible things. I mean it's also a great thing, right? Can imagine we have our phone. But like when you said that you used to write your book on your phone, that would have been hard for me because my phone is a also a symbol of distraction for me. So the very Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Everything. Exactly, exactly. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: device that I use to distract myself is now my creative device. I almost feel like you should have two separate I mean in my opinion. Yeah. And I have friends I haven't done this who who will always work on a different desk every day. Like they'll they won't work in the same office all the time. They'll like one day they'll work in their kitchen and the other day they'll work in a cafe. By the way, I think that's a really good thing to do is to work outside of your ⁓ office. Like go to a public place, like be around other people. There's just something kind of Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Two folds for that, right? Mm. Yep. Nifemi Aluko: I mean, I even though it can be distracting, it's a good kind of distraction because it's important as a creative person to get out and be in the world. ⁓ outside of your head. That's one thing I also think it's important. Yeah, to step away from your computer, to take walks. Walks are very underrated as a tool for creative people. And if you you if you read about walks, I actually have a book on walks. It's a little boring because it's just like here's different kinds of walks. But but her she makes the point in the beginning of the book that Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. In the world, yeah. Completely. Nifemi Aluko: You know, some of the great minds were big walkers. Like even Bill Gates, like a lot of these people who were like I'm sh maybe Steve Jobs, I don't know. They were big walkers. And they and when when you take a walk, it's not like go and walk with your your iTunes or your ⁓ or your podcast, like go and actually take a walk. You're just you and the world, you know, and notice things. I think that's a way to kind of I I think it's very important in this world. What will gives you the creative advantage is Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: not doing what everybody else is doing all the time. Everybody else online looking at ⁓ and reading the news and like and it's yeah, you want there's that balance of wanting to be informed and wanting to be like an informed citizen, you know, especially now with all this crazy stuff going on in our government. And and feeling like a response but also not getting so sucked into that that it that it kind of takes away your humanity. I just think ⁓ Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And yep. Nifemi Aluko: So you really I mean, we have to be very disciplined now. It's it's I I just worry about I mean, I I'm starting to think that kids shouldn't even be allowed to have phones until a certain age. It's almost like cigarettes, like because their full frontal cortex isn't even developed yet. It's hard enough for me to get away from a phone. Can you imagine a kid who it's like giving this piece of candy and and tell them like, don't you can't have the candy, you can't have the candy. They want the candy all the time. Of course they do. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Mm, that's it. ⁓ I know. Yeah. I think you know, ⁓ even for me, like one of my biggest advantages, even doing a lot of whether it's my business or creative work, is being having a habit of like saying no to the phone, which has its implications because like I have friends and family that would be like, Hey, we texted you, you never wanted like I texted you, I'm like, ⁓ you Nifemi Aluko: I know. I hate that. Now people expect you to be available all the time. You didn't work. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Three minutes will go, give me a you know Yeah. And Nifemi Aluko: Right. Yeah. And you're like, you never my my brother's always like, You never respond to your text. I'm like I'm like, No, it's just I don't want to be a slave to my phone where it's every time I get a text I'm gonna get it right back to you right away. Yeah. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Exactly. Yeah. And and you know, even those time when I'm I still write on my phone, but that's also because you know, waking up, I put my phone on airplane mode. So I I'm actively doing a whole bunch of stuff before I start. What I say it's once once the internet is connected, I get into a reactive mode. Like I'm responding to emails, and you know, I'm like, ⁓ shall I be doing so stuff online? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. That's smart. Yeah. Yeah. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: But those first that first one hour, two hours, airplane mode, and it was just like, and I do exactly what you do. Even if I have to research something, I'm just putting a note. Research this later. But don't say, let me go research and come back. No, no, no, no, no. You ain't that strong. It's gonna get you. The internet's the house always wins in a in in a way with the internet, right? Nifemi Aluko: That's smart. ⁓ Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The internet will win. You have to yeah, you have it's true. You're right. It's like the it's like the the casinos. It'll always win. So it always wins. So just make a time and then you know, make a time when you can do, you know, so you don't feel so guilty. If you want to have an hour where you're just gonna basically be on the internet, that's fine. As long as you've just given I don't know what's his name, he calls it deep work. There's there's this times that some people have they know give and you really have to unplug during those times. Otherwise you just Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: The house always wins. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: gonna be. And not only the times when you're working, but also just times when you're engaging with humanity. Like it's to just sometimes go out and take a walk without the internet. ⁓ which is can be the po I mean, look at I'm a podcaster. I probably survive the reason I probably have people listen to my podcast because I think they listen to it on their when they're walking or when they're doing so I'm telling you to do something that probably my business. and it I'm not saying I listen to walk I I always listen to podcasts when I walk all the time. But if there is a Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah. Yep, yep. Yeah yeah that's a good Nifemi Aluko: that it'd be good to even if it was fifteen minutes away, I'm not listening to a podcast, at least it's you're looking at nature, you're noticing people, you're interacting with people, you know, it's important. And I think that's how we preserve our humanity. And I'm I'm encouraged to see that younger people today who really grew up didn't not even knowing what a world was before the phone, you know, kind of seem to be getting into what they call IRL, which is like real stuff. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. People are trying to unplug something. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Nifemi Aluko: They're trying to unplug. It's like even they are tired of it. And I I feel like maybe there'll be some sort of rebellion against it, but I just can't imagine because they'll figure out some other technology that people get it'll be stopped being the phone, but then it'll be like what'll what else? I mean, it'll be so interesting to know in fifteen years what it is that people are are how they're engaging content in fifteen years 'cause obviously it's not gonna be a phone anymore. So I'll be curious to know. But Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yep, in the house. Yeah. And and you know, just you know, as we're coming up towards the end here, just three questions I have. All right. So the first one, what role does technology and AI have in how you currently make sense of the world? ⁓ like what what would you say whether there's a benefit or whatever it is, but what role does ⁓ Nifemi Aluko: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, I think some of it we talked about already. I definitely like to bounce. think of AI as like a really smart intern that I hired for whatever ChatGPT or IC Claude cost me a month because I do do the paid versions. where it's just like doing a lot of you know tasks for me, helping me sometimes research, ⁓ ideas of To me, that's been a very ⁓ useful. part of AI. I can't say that it also hasn't, you know, just like everything else, distracted me. ⁓ but I but I do think that's how I use it constructively. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Of course. Yeah. Yeah. All right. And a writer, as someone that values reading and all that stuff, fiction non non fiction, you have to choose one. Nifemi Aluko: Lately I've been lately I've been getting into fiction. and I like reading when I read nonfiction I like to read like biographies or like but I don't read I never read how to books. Almost never. ⁓ so and which is funny because I write them ⁓ I wanna write them, but I don't read them. But I do like fiction. I guess I like to write thing I like to read things that I could never write myself. It's kinda like when I go out to dinner I like to order things that I could never make at home. So I'll like Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: ⁓ huh. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I see, I see. Nifemi Aluko: I'll I'll I like to read I love historical fiction because I feel like that's the hardest fiction to write because you have to be you're writing about a period that you didn't live in, you know, probably. and you know, write in the the write about the things you're seeing and the people way people are talking and the things they're doing. And it's like it's like, how do you do that? I mean, I I'm so intimidated to write a historical fiction book. I find it to be fascinating. Yeah. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah yeah yeah. Mm. Mm-hmm. I've I've seen a lot of people going more towards fiction. And I'm wondering if there's a trend where it's part of the unplugged, right? It's part of the not another self help book, not another how to chat GPT. I can't do it anymore. Just give me science fiction. Let me know I'm in the dystopian world. Yep. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: Hmm, maybe. Yeah, that I just can't do it anymore. Yeah. Yeah, it's an escape, right? It's also an escape from AI, right? Like it's such an escape. And it's like characters and people and yeah, I just and even I'm even sort of redisc not even rediscovering because I never read them in the first place, but some of the classics, you know, like not always just and you know, like like 'cause you there's a reason they're classics, like I'm curious. Like Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And ⁓ for you, do you really are you a lot of people are saying books are going out of style. is your take? Do you think we're done with books or they're here to stay? Nifemi Aluko: Is it? Yeah. There'll always be books. I mean, I'm a little bit discouraged that my my daughter, who's very literary and very like a great writer, she doesn't read a lot. Now she's only fifteen or sixteen now. and maybe and my mom reminds me that I didn't really start reading until I was in my twenties. So I think books will always be here. I definitely feel like it's a little bit of a dying art forum. ⁓ you know, I think but you know, if you think about it, books like novels kind of came around before there was TV, before there was all these other things. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: before there was even movies. And so like now people people will always love stories, but I think that sometimes it's just easier to get your stories in other ways. But I do think that there's something about the act of reading that is very unique ⁓ and very powerful. And you really can't write unless you read. ⁓ I believe that. That's one common Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: thing that I found in interviewing all those writers over the years and still write interviewing writers that they're all readers. Like you I've never met a writer who doesn't read. so that's important. So if you want to be a writer, you really do need to read. ⁓ yeah and and I are they gonna die novels I don't know like God I hope not. I really don't know because I mean I wouldn't have told you movies were going to die out and looks like we're seeing towards the end a movie, I mean I don't know they certainly ended a movie theaters. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. Mm-hmm. And you know, I have like a this is very out there a bit, but I have a big thing. Like books are going to become so important because one of the things we need to do in this era of noise train our attention. Right. So if whether you want to one of the biggest things of building a business is focus, right? Any or anything you want to build, build a Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Writing a book, whatever it is, any creative endeav endeavor, you need focus. And I feel books are one of the last places where you can have distractionless experience and train your attention. Right. I might be pushing my agenda, ⁓ I really feel like ⁓ Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. Yeah. It's true. Because you like books. Yeah, I I agree. I mean, I guess people could make the argument, you know, that well, when you're watching, you know, a streaming series or something, you know, you're v you're very focused on that and it's not it there's definitely a different thing working in your brain. I'm not a neuro neur neurologist or whatever, but I know that different parts of your brain are working when you're reading as opposed to watching. and so I I know it yeah. I mean I I think the smarter the people who ha have the advantage and the leg up are gonna be readers for sure. But Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: No. Nifemi Aluko: That's not to say I I mean they've already we've already seen like a huge decrease in the amount of people are reading. ⁓ which is which is just sad. And a certain my generation, you know, we grew up reading, so I mean, I think we're readers, but I was discouraged to see that my my daughter and my son are not very big readers and they're very smart in their own way. So Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean if it's if it's comf comforting like growing up I didn't read much. Yeah, yeah, I didn't read much. I can tell you that. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, I think when you're a kid you don't really read. I mean I read magazine. It's it's hard because you the attention span that it takes to read. You also don't have the free time to read. As you get older you have a little more time. Yeah. Yeah. I remember when I went when I moved to Japan for a year and I was on my own, I read so much I'd never read more in my life because I was on my own and I was yeah, it was great. I loved it. Yeah. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah, yep. Yeah, it was in my twenties. That's when I started like just picking up books because was trying to figure stuff out. Yep. Trying to figure it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, John, last question. If the entire world went dystopian, right? On one hand, full dystopian, right? We're enslaved by these machines, intelligent machines, we're serving them. We don't even know what we're hustling for resources. ⁓ go the other direction, full utopian, you know. Nifemi Aluko: Yes. Yeah. Hold on. ⁓ god. Terminator. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: The machines are serving us. There's some form of universal basic income. Everybody's happy. You're doing whatever you want with your time. Choose one, dystopian or utopian, right? Choose a scenario. Exactly. Are there any Nifemi Aluko: So one's Terminator and one's WALL-E. ⁓ I mean I I I hope it's in the middle, but I think I would turn tur I would definitely pick the utopian model, right? Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Okay. All right. In that case, right, are are there any practices that you would do on a daily basis if you went if we were in that utopian Nifemi Aluko: Be a to live in a utopian Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: No, if we're already there, not to live there, like if we're already in that space, right? Are there any things you do on a daily basis? Practices just to keep kind of nurturing meaning in your life. Nifemi Aluko: Well, I yeah. I mean, not to come back to reading, but I think anything like to me, a utopian world would be where I could do things that nurture my mind but not have to be stressed about, you know, what's this gonna get me in terms of like monetization or, you know, ⁓ social status or whatever it is that we do all day. If it was just a practice in a utopian society where I could just read a book and enjoy it for the pure act of just enjoying a great piece of art or go to a museum. without some sort of agenda or listen to a piece of music. To me, that's utopian. Like that to me is like the great would be a great life. ⁓ you know, where it's like nothing there's no agenda. You're just there to like have the experience of beauty. And and whether it makes you upset or happy or mad or whatever, it's like you're you're you're having a pure experience. And to me, that would be a great utopian. So I don't know. So reading to me, walking like the f the places where you're free, Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Blah blah. Yeah. Nifemi Aluko: from the of the world, you know, that ⁓ that are overwhelming. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah man, the d the demand the demand of the bills. Nifemi Aluko: Demands of the bills is what kills me. If I could wake up and not I mean this idea of universal income, I mean I don't see it ever happening in our lifetime, but maybe maybe the machines will make that possible. I don't know if humans are even able to just not I mean some of us are, but like we talk about retirement. I can't imagine ever retiring retiring. Again, like I wouldn't just want to spend my whole day sitting and reading a book. I want to make podcasts. I would just be nice to make a podcast and not have to worry about making money off of it. Right. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah. Man. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And is that just more just to talk to other people or just ⁓ mm hmm? Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, because I love the experience of well, first of all, I love everything about podcasts. I love the part of it where you you can talk to people. I love the part of it where you can edit it because I like sound editing and I like all the pro I like the researching it. I like the the audio part. I like making the music for it. Like I like podcast I like the medium a lot. the audio medium a lot. ⁓ so but that's just me. But ⁓ yeah, so like like those certain things. Yeah, maybe that would be like in a utopian world. I just make podcasts all day. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah, that would be cool. Nifemi Aluko: Or or DJ, maybe just do some mix some records. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think what I'm hearing is ⁓ we need to find the AI that we can outsource all our bills to, right? That would be the ideal solution. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah, so that we can do the stuff that really matters. And you I'm making it sound so self centered. I mean, also just helping other people like just so that we can help so we can live a life that's like free of of yeah, of the anxiety of money that money puts on us. Now, maybe if we didn't have the anxiety about money, there would be some other anxiety, but most of us just have an anxiety about money. ⁓ it would be nice in a utopian society if that wasn't so much of a burden so that we could put our efforts into maybe Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Mm-hmm. Money, yep, yep. Mm-hmm. Nifemi Aluko: making sure that, you know, everybody is is fed or, you know, whatever it is, like those things, our own personal stuff and then helping humanity, you know. Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah. Sounds like just reducing suffering, you know it collectively. Nifemi Aluko: Yeah. And I'd be curious to know who are the people that you will ever have on your show that would pick the the the we we become the master, the slaves of the Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yeah, I had I had some I spoke to ⁓ Ken Ken G who la last week. He went dystopian, right? And he was like, ⁓ yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was talking about this trying to figure out how to get resources, trying to he also says stuff around, you know, learning about farming, connecting with nature, you know. So it was just ⁓ Nifemi Aluko: Confusing. Well, I think are you watching that show Pluribus where ⁓ Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: Yes, I've seen two episodes. Nifemi Aluko: And the idea that if the rope if the dystopian world was instead of having telling you what to do, everybody was just working together ⁓ but you still have to basically do what the the rope the aliens want you to do. And then and then it's interesting how some people will rebel against that and some people will just say, ⁓ I'm gonna take advantage of this, you know? Like I'm gonna get as many g girlfriends as I can, you Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: I mean yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh. Nifemi Aluko: ⁓ so humans are gonna have different ex different but Jon Small Nifemi Aluko webcam 00h 00m 00s 465ms StreamYard: I know, I know. And that's just the I guess that's part of the human experience too. Is this is this mess that we always have to kind of navigate. anyways, John, thank you very much for your time. I really appreciate you. And ⁓ yeah, yeah, yeah, very nice to have you on. ⁓ man, you know, I have to then record the real thing. Nifemi Aluko: Thanks. Of course. Thank you for having me. I hope I made sense. And by the way, this was all AI. This wasn't even me. I'm glad that my I'm glad that my AI robot was able to do this interview for me while I was busy writing my substack.