Latest / Anchored At Home / 4. Why We Hide: Trauma, Addiction & the Patterns That Keep Us Stuck | Laurie Lokey

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4. Why We Hide: Trauma, Addiction & the Patterns That Keep Us Stuck | Laurie Lokey · Anchored At Home

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  Speaker 1: The conversations that impact our lives are rooted in vulnerability, truth,
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  Speaker 1: and grace.
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  Speaker 2: Each week, we'll have real conversations about.
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  Speaker 1: Life and all the beautiful, messy moments in between. We
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  Speaker 1: hope this is a place where.
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  Speaker 3: You can exhale, feel seen, know you're not alone, and
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  Speaker 3: leave encouraged, challenged, and equipped. We're Josh and Liz, and
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  Speaker 3: welcome to Anchored at Home.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: Welcome back to Anchored at Home podcast. So glad you
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: could join us. We hope that you have been following
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: us along this journey, a really fun journey where we
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: go from topic to topic. Sometimes we stay on topic,
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  Speaker 2: sometimes we don't. But we feel like and we hope
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: that it's helping people, that you're resonating with some of
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: the stuff we talked about. And we just we pray
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: that if you do like it, that you can share it,
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: like it, repost it, send it to your friends, because
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: we're just literally trying to Impact as many people as
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  Speaker 2: we can, you know, and we just hope that this
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  Speaker 2: episode just speaks to your heart and wherever you are
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  Speaker 2: in this season. We pray it brings hope into your world.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. So we have the honor today of having one
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  Speaker 1: of our favorite people with us.
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  Speaker 4: Ever. Ever, yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And I'm just, her bio is kind of a lot.
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  Speaker 2: It's so good.
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  Speaker 1: I have to read it.
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  Speaker 2: You need to read it.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: You don't want to miss it.
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  Speaker 1: So today we get to welcome someone who's walked alongside
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  Speaker 1: us personally and whom we loved dearly. I already said that.
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  Speaker 1: Lori Loki. Lori is a former licensed professional counselor who
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  Speaker 1: has spent decades helping people heal from trauma, work through
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  Speaker 1: recovery and broken trust and understand the roots of patterns
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  Speaker 1: that keep them stuck. She has served as an intensive
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  Speaker 1: specialist at onsite workshops, developed her own approach to trauma
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  Speaker 1: healing and worked with individuals and couples through her private practice.
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  Speaker 1: Lori and her late husband, Bill also led workshops and
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  Speaker 1: intensives together. Yours. You're getting emotional already.
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  Speaker 2: Um, yeah, so Bill and lawyer are super dear to
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  Speaker 2: our hearts. Um, The first time I ever got to
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  Speaker 2: experience Bill, he was actually leading a group retreat and
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  Speaker 2: he was the head therapist there and didn't work with
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  Speaker 2: them individually. He was like literally speaking to the group,
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  Speaker 2: but I saw his heart in that and who he is.
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  Speaker 2: And Lori is the same, like they're the same people,
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  Speaker 2: you know, a male and a female version of each other.
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  Speaker 2: in regards to their heart and who they are. But
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  Speaker 2: one of my greatest memories of you guys is I
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  Speaker 2: went to a men's retreat a few years after meeting Bill.
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  Speaker 2: And he was actually towards the end of his life
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  Speaker 2: and dealing with cancer and constantly in pain. And I
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  Speaker 2: remember him and Lori, I know you can speak to
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  Speaker 2: this if you want to, of like, hey, if I
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  Speaker 2: only have a week left. If I only have two
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  Speaker 2: weeks left, I want to do, I want to spend
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  Speaker 2: it helping people.
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  Speaker 4: And I.
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  Speaker 2: Mean, if that doesn't speak to who you guys are, um,
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  Speaker 2: I mean that to me, that's like embodies who you
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  Speaker 2: guys are. It's like your, your desire and your goal
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  Speaker 2: in life is literally to help people, uh, be the
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  Speaker 2: best versions of themselves. So we love you. Thanks so
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  Speaker 2: much for being here. And, and, We're excited to have you.
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  Speaker 4: Well, I'm excited to be here. And, you know, I
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  Speaker 4: love you guys. You know, Bill taught me how to
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  Speaker 4: live fully. In the cancer journey, his focus was on
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  Speaker 4: eternity and home. But in the meantime, his talk was
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  Speaker 4: about life to life and how to live fully. from
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  Speaker 4: this life to the next. And so that, that is
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  Speaker 4: what I learned from being with him in that. And yes, Josh,
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  Speaker 4: I remember you. I was actually leading the group. He
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  Speaker 4: was supposed to lead as a female, this group of
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  Speaker 4: men that they were like, what do we do with
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  Speaker 4: this woman? I was just like, you know, Um, and,
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  Speaker 4: and Liz, you know, too, it's just been a, it's
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  Speaker 4: been a beautiful journey and I'm just happy that, um,
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  Speaker 4: y'all are continuing the legacy that Bill and I started it.
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  Speaker 4: Cause that's what your heart is. Your heart is to
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  Speaker 4: give back what was given to you, um, in your
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  Speaker 4: own healing journey. Uh, and that, that makes an old
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  Speaker 4: lady like me feel good about the youngsters coming in
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  Speaker 4: and taking over. So, or taking it, taking it on,
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  Speaker 4: taking on the legacy, keep it going. So it's really good. Yeah. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, we've learned so much just from our own
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  Speaker 1: personal work, like with you guys. And yeah, I mean,
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  Speaker 1: when people will ask us all the time of, you know, what, like,
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  Speaker 1: how did God put this on your heart? And, and
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  Speaker 1: we'll be like, well, we have people who've gone before us.
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  Speaker 1: And really like when you experience that, people like you
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  Speaker 1: and Bill that I will not, there aren't many people
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  Speaker 1: like you guys, but it's like, it's when you get
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  Speaker 1: to experience, it was such a gift, especially at the timing, right.
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  Speaker 1: Of like God bringing you guys in our world to
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  Speaker 1: then go, he was already stirring in us. Like, how
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  Speaker 1: can we give back? Like, how can we help others?
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  Speaker 1: And so to see what you guys are in our
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  Speaker 1: own personal life. And then with so many others, it's just, yeah.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And we've talked about on episodes, you know, prior of how,
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  Speaker 2: You know, a lot of people don't have it figured out.
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  Speaker 2: Probably most of us don't have it figured out. And
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  Speaker 2: marriage is hard and life is hard and parenting is hard.
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  Speaker 2: But like when you get people like you guys to
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  Speaker 2: come alongside you, it makes it a little easier.
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  Speaker 4: It's been with one another like life is hard. And
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  Speaker 4: and how do we learn how to to be with
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  Speaker 4: each other in the good, bad and ugly? You know, it's,
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  Speaker 4: it's all of it in the places where we struggle,
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  Speaker 4: we can be with one another and we really, we
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  Speaker 4: need that. We need connection. We need belonging. We need safety.
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  Speaker 4: We need, you know, we need, we have these needs
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  Speaker 4: as human beings to be able to show up in
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  Speaker 4: vulnerability and openness and honesty to be able to go,
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  Speaker 4: I'm really struggling with this. This is really, I'm having
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  Speaker 4: a really hard day. This is, this is, this is rough.
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  Speaker 4: And to be able to go, yay, or, hey, this
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  Speaker 4: is happening in my life. And it's so good. And
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  Speaker 4: everybody's like, I'm here. I'm with you. Yay. And staying
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  Speaker 4: away from judgment and condemnation. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And that's something you guys have always done, like, beautifully,
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  Speaker 1: is that, you know, we've just on an episode before this,
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  Speaker 1: we were just talking about like, condemnation and shame and
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  Speaker 1: like where how where that all comes from but being
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  Speaker 1: able to be met and like fully seen like where
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  Speaker 1: we're at i mean you've heard there's nothing new under
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  Speaker 1: the sun i'm sure that you you know you're not
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  Speaker 1: like nothing surprising you at this stage um you know
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  Speaker 1: but to still be met with compassion and grace and
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  Speaker 1: and just an openness to be who you are like
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  Speaker 1: you said to fully show up who we are and
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  Speaker 1: be vulnerable and met with that um And then to
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  Speaker 1: do it together, like you said, of like, we need
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  Speaker 1: those people. And especially today, you know, so many people,
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  Speaker 1: it's like, we're more lonely. We're more isolated. We're more alone.
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  Speaker 1: Instead of just letting someone into our mess, you know,
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  Speaker 1: which like we all have a mess. Let's, you know,
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  Speaker 1: figure it out together.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I think that was one of the first things that
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  Speaker 2: like I caught from Bill, like I said, from the stage, again,
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  Speaker 2: in a big group was like, it's okay to be
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  Speaker 2: vulnerable and There is a lot of power in being vulnerable.
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  Speaker 2: And your vulnerability not only helps you, but it helps
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  Speaker 2: the people around you.
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  Speaker 4: Well, it just says I'm not alone. I'm not alone
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  Speaker 4: in the struggle. And it's not for me to remain
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  Speaker 4: as a victim in that. I still have to take
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  Speaker 4: responsibility to be my own internal regulator with God's help
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  Speaker 4: to move out of that through the power of the
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  Speaker 4: Holy Spirit. of not going, like I'll say to my girlfriends,
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  Speaker 4: if I'm having a rough day, I'm in the Miry
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  Speaker 4: Clay today. Which in other words, I'm stuck in my self-pity.
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  Speaker 4: I know I am. They don't go, oh, well, Laurie,
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  Speaker 4: we're so, let me help you out of your Miry Clay.
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  Speaker 4: It's more of like, hey, we're with you, but what
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  Speaker 4: do you need to move, move ahead into gratitude or
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  Speaker 4: to fill in your sadness to be able to, to
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  Speaker 4: move out of that. It's, it's that, Accountability with good
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  Speaker 4: people that I know love me no matter what.
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  Speaker 1: So why don't you start by sharing with us, you know, what,
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  Speaker 1: what do you do? Like, what does, what is the
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  Speaker 1: work if you could, you know, you're obviously in the
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  Speaker 1: therapy world, you've worked it, you worked with.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: From individuals to intensives to organizations, you know, you came
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  Speaker 1: up with really like the intensive model that's being used
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  Speaker 1: all over the country and beyond. Like, what does that
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  Speaker 1: explain what that looks like?
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  Speaker 4: Oh, and so I was the only one, I learned
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  Speaker 4: it from someone who, and then I just continued to
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  Speaker 4: develop it. So, so really, if I, if I want
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  Speaker 4: to put it in, in Christian terms, because I am,
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  Speaker 4: I'm in a transitional seasonal change trajectory away from being
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  Speaker 4: more of the licensed professional counselor into more of the
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  Speaker 4: spiritual mentor, let's explore what's getting in the way of,
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  Speaker 4: you know, in the goodness of God. But if I
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  Speaker 4: want to, I can do the same terms. I can
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  Speaker 4: do it in the counseling world, but I can also
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  Speaker 4: do it in the Christian world. So we're basically from
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  Speaker 4: the beginning, Adam and Eve fell and they hid and
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  Speaker 4: they learned great strategies to protect their hearts. And so
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  Speaker 4: they put things over their hearts and we put things
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  Speaker 4: over our hearts because we're afraid of being known. and
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  Speaker 4: being seen and approved of. And for me personally, mine
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  Speaker 4: was more on the, um, trauma and addiction side, um,
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  Speaker 4: because of sexual abuse, because of a, an eating disorder,
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  Speaker 4: love addiction, all the things that came into my story
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  Speaker 4: out that the, the survival mechanisms I use out of
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  Speaker 4: my own story of survival, um, how to, how to
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  Speaker 4: keep myself hidden. Because if you really knew me, um,
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  Speaker 4: You would hate me. You would not like me. I
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  Speaker 4: didn't like me. So I spent a lot of my
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  Speaker 4: years staying hidden behind these masks of addictions or codependency, survival,
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  Speaker 4: trying to stay hidden. And in the process of healing,
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  Speaker 4: I started first with 12-step to move out of that.
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  Speaker 4: Then I went into counseling and then I began to
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  Speaker 4: understand trauma and how the impact of trauma causes us
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  Speaker 4: to have these survival places where we keep our hearts
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  Speaker 4: hidden and then how to work into freedom. And so now,
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  Speaker 4: like I'll be going to lead a group of, I think,
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  Speaker 4: 12 or 13 women this weekend on at a retreat,
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  Speaker 4: more of a retreat model. And I just did that
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  Speaker 4: a couple of weekends ago, another group of women. And
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  Speaker 4: so I'm really enjoying that. And then I've got Chris,
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  Speaker 4: who's my partner, and we're doing like what's called the
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  Speaker 4: Oneness Workshop, where we're really helping people have an awareness
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  Speaker 4: of their strategies of protection, what's keeping them from trusting
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  Speaker 4: in the goodness of God. And then their identity being
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  Speaker 4: in Christ. So it's AI awareness, awareness, identity. So yeah. Yeah. And,
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  Speaker 4: and so, so that's really where I'm really enjoying my
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  Speaker 4: life going now less into the heavy duty drama, trauma
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  Speaker 4: more into just learning how to help people get unstuck and,
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  Speaker 4: and being free in those places. So that's kind of
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  Speaker 4: my transition area of what I'm doing. And then I'm
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  Speaker 4: leaving the harder stuff to young people like you guys.
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  Speaker 1: Thank you.
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  Speaker 2: Well, you do, correct me if I'm wrong, you're still
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  Speaker 2: using a lot of the same techniques and tools. You're just,
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  Speaker 2: you're kind of like getting out of the way, if
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  Speaker 2: you will, and letting the Holy Spirit intervene. That's the
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  Speaker 2: biggest difference.
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  Speaker 4: I just found I have such a dependence upon the
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  Speaker 4: Holy Spirit to lead and guide me through where it
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  Speaker 4: is to stay connected to God, listening to Him, and
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  Speaker 4: then out of that flowing the place of holding the
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  Speaker 4: space for people to heal and understanding having enough tools
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  Speaker 4: in my tool belt to To go, hmm, yeah, that
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  Speaker 4: feels like a strategy. Some of it's prayer. Some of
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  Speaker 4: it's just doing some experiential work with people, taking them
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  Speaker 4: deeper into understanding. Just giving them a picture. What is
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  Speaker 4: it that's keeping you hidden? Because God wants us to
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  Speaker 4: be free. He just wants to be with us. And
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  Speaker 4: that's all. He just wants to be with us. And
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  Speaker 4: then as we understand his great love for us, then
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  Speaker 4: we want to serve him. But if we're living in
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  Speaker 4: shame and addiction and staying hidden, we're like Adam and Eve.
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  Speaker 4: We're hiding under the fig leaves. And God's going, hey, hey,
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  Speaker 4: where are you? I'm here. Knock, knock, knock. And we're like, no,
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  Speaker 4: don't see me. Please don't. Please don't. Please don't see me.
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  Speaker 4: And so he's like, I just want to come in.
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  Speaker 4: I just want to be with you. And I just
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  Speaker 4: want you to rest in my Holy Spirit. I want
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  Speaker 4: you to rest in my love for you. And I
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  Speaker 4: want you to rest in the things that I call
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  Speaker 4: you into, the service that I call you to. But
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  Speaker 4: rest in it. Seize striving. Know that I am God
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  Speaker 4: and learning my goodness and how to benevolently detach from
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  Speaker 4: the things in this world that keep us stuck in Um,
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  Speaker 4: and anxiety and fear, um, or worry, uh, all those,
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  Speaker 4: all those great, I'm really good at worrying. Um, and
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  Speaker 4: so I have to constantly, um, I mean, that might
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  Speaker 4: be my thorn in the flesh for the rest of
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: my life. I don't know, but I have, so I
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  Speaker 4: have to constantly go to God in it here. God
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  Speaker 4: take this. I want to hold it. I want to
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  Speaker 4: keep it. I want to make it mine. I want
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  Speaker 4: to figure it out. And he's like, no, like you can't.
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  Speaker 4: Let me have it.
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  Speaker 2: I know we have some questions and I don't even
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: know if this is one of them, but I know
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  Speaker 2: you mentioned the experiential, you know, stuff that you did.
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  Speaker 2: And for me, that's one of the most impactful types
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  Speaker 2: of therapy that I've ever done. And that really have
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: like transformed my life and given me true healing. Can
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: you talk through that and like explain it?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Like what that is for people that don't know.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, so experiential is just being able to take props
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  Speaker 4: or construction paper and create what's going on inside of you.
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  Speaker 4: And so you're basically, you're out of just left brain thinking.
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  Speaker 4: Now you're having to go into right and left brain
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  Speaker 4: thinking and you're having to feel it in your body.
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  Speaker 4: It's somatic. It's experiencing things. what has happened in your
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  Speaker 4: life and your story. And it just brings it alive
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  Speaker 4: for people. They're able to go, oh, wow. Because they're,
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  Speaker 4: let's just say, if I were to say to you guys, hey,
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  Speaker 4: would you, here's some construction paper, just tear, fold, and
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  Speaker 4: crumple where you are today. And I have seen such
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  Speaker 4: amazing things with people just taking construction paper, tearing, folding
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  Speaker 4: and crumpling. And then they look at it and now
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  Speaker 4: they've expressed where they are. But if I were to
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: have asked them, Hey, how's it going today?
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  Speaker 2: Oh, right.
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  Speaker 1: I'm fine. Right.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah. But no, you're, they put that out, they tear
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  Speaker 4: it up. They, then they're looking at it. So their
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  Speaker 4: eyes are seeing it for what it is. And they're going, Oh, wow.
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  Speaker 4: That was an, you know, they're, it gives them the
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  Speaker 4: experience for what they're feeling inside.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. I know what, I mean, for both of us,
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  Speaker 1: it was like, I had done a lot of different cognitive,
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: not that there's anything, everyone needs a different method, right?
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  Speaker 1: For us that, and for me personally, you know, that's
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  Speaker 1: what got me to go into the counseling world was
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  Speaker 1: seeing experiential, you And being in a place I'm really
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  Speaker 1: good at overanalyzing and analyzing all the things, you know,
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  Speaker 1: and telling God what I would love for him to do,
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  Speaker 1: you know, all that. And but then when you take it,
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  Speaker 1: you know, and that's all left brain and all me thinking.
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  Speaker 1: So I could tell you stories for days. But until
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  Speaker 1: it was so hard for me to go, you know,
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  Speaker 1: and I know you always do like the mind like heart.
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  Speaker 1: once you're in alignment, you know, I was so far
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  Speaker 1: out of alignment for so long. I mean, we've done
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  Speaker 1: multiple construction paper things. I think one, maybe even with
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: Lori at one point. And I remember being.
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: Like, right.
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  Speaker 1: So what do you, how do I do it? And like,
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  Speaker 1: where do I, you know, but it, but it was
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: brought out. I couldn't talk my way around, you know,
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: and I had to, and then I remember like crying
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  Speaker 1: at my piece of construction paper, like, you know, where
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: it's like, wait, how did I get from here?
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  Speaker 4: Right.
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  Speaker 1: And, and quickly deeper. And it's, there's just such depth
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  Speaker 1: to that form for, and again, everybody's to each his own,
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  Speaker 1: but like you said, where you're actually feeling the embodiment
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  Speaker 1: starts to happen of, you know, of what am I
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  Speaker 1: actually feeling? Not what am I saying? Or what's the
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  Speaker 1: story I'm telling myself?
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  Speaker 4: Right. Are you, or you take a, a person, you
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: ask them, who is somebody significant in your life that
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: really believed in you or saw you and knew you
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: and then just ask them to stand behind the chair
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: and you're in the chair. Now you're that person. Now
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: speak from that person over you. Oh, my goodness. You know, again,
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: the emotions that come up as as they began to
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: embody the person that believed in them. and then have
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: them sit down and then have a person speak over
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: them in that way it's just again it's it's being
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: able to experience what we know inside and Um, but
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: often in our left brain, we don't know how to,
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: we don't know how to bring that alive. And it's
• 20:08
  Speaker 4: spiritual therapy brings that alive.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: I think one of the biggest ways that, that helped
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: me is like, I remember the first couple of times
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: I'd go to therapy and I think we maybe touched
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: on this. It was like, I, it would, I'd talk
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: about something and I would get, well, how's that make
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: you feel? And I would like, And I'd say something
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: and then my therapist would be like, well, that's not
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: a feeling.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: Okay. He said a lot of fine. Yeah, yeah.
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: Or good.
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: Or whatever I would say and like three times in
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: a row, he'd be like, that's also not a feeling,
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: you know. But that, like simple, you know, something as
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: simple as that and going through it, like I was
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: able to show how I felt. And then in showing
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: how I felt, I was able to actually express how
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: I felt. It was really, really powerful.
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: Because many times people, like I didn't have words for
• 20:51
  Speaker 4: emotions until I was in my 40s. So I had
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: to learn what emotions were. I had to learn what
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: feelings were and where the feelings in my body. And
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: that's it's as simple as that. Sometimes the baseline of going, hmm,
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: because the only word I could bring into to the
• 21:12
  Speaker 4: therapist's office was I'm frustrated. Oh, so you're angry. No,
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: I'm frustrated because I was I was not allowed to
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: have anger. you know, back in the day. So I
• 21:22
  Speaker 4: would just come in frustrated and then I'd feel shame
• 21:25
  Speaker 4: for having anger. So it was pretty complicated to even
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: learn how to feel and give myself permission to feel
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: all of my emotions and know that they were not
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: good or bad. They're just emotions. I don't need them
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: to drive the bus, but I need to have them. Yeah. Yeah.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: So good. We know your background a lot, like you said, within... Addiction, recovery,
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: you know, even from your own story, but also you
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: help a lot of people in those areas. And we
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: just talked about in a previous episode, you know, Josh
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: shared about we both shared about, you know, about medicators
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: or different things that we've walked through from. um, like
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: pornography to every, every, and I said, I have all
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: of them at one point in my life. I had every,
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: you know, and, um, but kind of like what that
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: looks like and the masking and really, like you said,
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: we had mentioned in our, in the episode of not feeling,
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: wanting to feel seen. Cause if someone really saw me
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: at some times of, you know, where I was using
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: all of these I'll call them medicators. Or we were
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: talking about you with like pornography where he was like,
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: I actually, you hated yourself. You know, like I, that's
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: what it comes down to. And like, how many can
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: you stack up? You know, so you can, you can't
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: see me really through this, you know, but like one
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: comes down. So I guess in that context, you know,
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: when someone's struggling with addiction or patterns, like they can't
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: seem to break, like how would you help them understand
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: what's underneath it. Cause right now you have a lot
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: of people that, um, in that addiction world, everything's addiction,
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: first of all, you know, and, and then, and, or, um,
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: going to try and figure out, um, you know, there's
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: no magic pill, right. There's no, or it's like, Hey,
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: I've tried to change my, we talked about this with,
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: you know, behavior, like just don't, he said the rubber
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: band thing, like he learned growing up of, If you're
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: going to watch porn, snap the rubber band. He's like, well,
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: that didn't work. Prayer didn't work. Like all the things
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: you need, you know. So anyway, speaking kind of to that.
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: So when you think about trauma and addiction or you
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: just think about addiction, if somebody comes in and presents
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: has presented with addiction, I know it's a strategy of protection.
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: I know that they're afraid of feeling their pain. And,
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: you know, one thing I say is that pain won't
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: kill you, but your addiction might. And you're never going
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: to get what you want or need if you stay
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: in your addiction. Because let's say, you know, in sex addiction,
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: it's usually a longing for something that they didn't get.
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: In my own story of love addiction, it was a
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: longing for, it was a love hunger. Somebody please love me.
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: So it was fear of rejection. again. So I'm going
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: to manipulate my world to get what I need because
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: I'm afraid of being rejected. So what do I have
• 24:26
  Speaker 4: to do? I have to go into the places of fear. Well,
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: if I go into the places of fear, I have
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: to feel pain. Okay. And I have to feel grief
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: and I have to feel loss. And most people have
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: learned these great ways of denial or repression to avoid
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: feeling their pain. And all they know maybe is to
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: to medicate them, right? Because they don't know how to
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: jump out of an airplane without a parachute on into
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: the places of uncertainty. So they want to make everything
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: certain where when you go into release, then you're going
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: to feel your pain. You're going to feel the uncertainty
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: of the unknown of living your life differently. Or maybe
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: I'm afraid if I start to allow grief and loss
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: to come into my life, it will be so overwhelming.
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: I might not ever get up again. Like I remember
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: feeling that. And actually, some people don't have capacity to
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: fill their brain. And they've used parts of self or
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: strategies to keep themselves at a place of operation. That's
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: the best they'll ever do. In their life, you know,
• 25:44
  Speaker 4: so we have to we have to be aware of that.
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: So I I if the people if the person has
• 25:52
  Speaker 4: capacity to go deeper, then you you take them back
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: to those places of pain and you take them into
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: getting to see and know themselves for who they are.
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: For me, it was forgiving my younger me and learning
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: how to embrace her and to take it wasn't her
• 26:12
  Speaker 4: fault that the things that happened because she was carrying
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: the burden of that. Learning how to bring Jesus into
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: her story to be able to know that he's loved
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: her from the time she was born. I remember doing
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: one time of a guided imagery of Jesus catching me
• 26:31
  Speaker 4: at my birth and just looking at me and just crying.
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: just his face of delight and love where I was
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: able to just receive that kind of love, that kind of, um,
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: you know, beauty, um, from him to, to know that, that, um,
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: that's what he desires for us. Um, and then to
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: grow that up, um, to my four-year-old or to my
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: five-year-old or to the things that, to all the places
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: where losses, where the enemy came to still kill and destroy, um,
• 27:05
  Speaker 4: my life. I mean, I even did some major work
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: last summer. I went back, um, to places where God
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: was like, you think you've been healed from rejection? Uh,
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: not so much girl. We're going to, we're going to go.
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: And he orchestrated this very painful summer, um, to deal with, um,
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: rejection of the places. And it was beautiful and hard
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: at the same time. Um, But to come to now
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: this fall, and I finished it with a ladder of
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: love going into this beautiful, being this beautiful bride of Christ.
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: Stacey Eldridge's new book is coming out. I went to
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: her retreat last year this time. And it just was
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: this love relationship that Jesus and I had. Well, and
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: y'all don't know this, but I'll tell you right now
• 27:59
  Speaker 4: to the point where, um, I'm engaged.
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: Congratulations.
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: Amazing. Oh my gosh.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: I didn't know.
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: Do you know what's so weird? As you were talking
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: about Bill, I was literally like, we're talking about Bill
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: and she's getting married. I'm not even kidding. I'm not. Congratulations.
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: I am. And so to, to, to bring God from
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: that to, to prepare me, cause my heart would have
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: not been ready. Um, And so, again, it's really knowing
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: even in the hard places of our life, he's always
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: working it. He's making things new for our good. And
• 28:41
  Speaker 4: not to be afraid of that, to know, you know,
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: it's just what are our views of God that keep
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: us from opening our hearts to him? What are we
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: afraid of? in our lives and stories. What are we,
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: what are we fighting for? Why are we numbing? All
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: those are the, you know, the fight, flight, freeze part
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: of the brain, which is where the enemy comes in
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: to kill, steal and destroy. So when those doors are open,
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: he comes in and says, I got a, I got
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: a doorway open here. And so those are the places
• 29:16
  Speaker 4: that we want to daily heal from. And sometimes we
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: can do that ourselves, but often we need another person
• 29:24
  Speaker 4: or person's, I.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: Think it's really cool that you were just saying you
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: did some work this past summer. And Liz and I
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: have talked about like how, you know, you heal and
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: you heal in like layers and how important it is
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: to like, hey, when things come back up, well, yep,
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: go address it. I don't know if you could speak
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: to that a little bit about the power of, you know,
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: not I guess maybe it's like not feeling that we've arrived.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, you do. You do such a great job.
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: I mean, even in like, as a mentor to me,
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: you love to like, well, I'm this age and I'm still,
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: you know, you've shared along the lines, like I'm still working.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: I just found out, like you just said, you shared.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: But there's still that you're not, we don't arrive. And
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: it's so beautiful how you've shown us that of like, yeah,
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: something else may be brought up in a different way, right?
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: From someone different or different situation.
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: Right. Yeah. No, I mean, I remember back in the day,
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: I felt so much shame about going to a counselor.
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: You know, why do I have to go to the counselor?
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: Why is everybody else happy in church and I'm struggling?
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: And I felt so much shame. And then I would
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: get mad about it. Like, I remember one time I
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: was sweeping my kitchen. I was like, call a counselor.
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: you know, and so, but, but now it's just like,
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: if I look back at all the different counselors or
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: mentors are people who God brought into my life, I'm
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: just eternally grateful for those people and, and for the
• 30:59
  Speaker 4: ways that each, there was the next thing and the
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: next thing. And like I said, this, the, you know, the,
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: The summer of rejection was last summer, 2025. Summer 2026
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: has been on conflict avoidant. That's what he's brought me into.
• 31:15
  Speaker 4: This is my lesson on, oh, I love to avoid conflict.
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: But now it's how to show up, be truthful, stay
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: out of codependency, and move into going, okay, I'm going
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: to step into it. to say my truth and they
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: may not like it, but okay, here we go. Um, uh,
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: and really living out, I'm not going to be liked
• 31:45
  Speaker 4: by everybody. Um, so I, I, I suppose next summer,
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: my summers are my markers for whatever reason.
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Let it all out.
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah. Who knows what next summer?
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: I mean, you'll be married.
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah. So it'll probably be relational. For sure. Of course.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think even to touch on like what you
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: just said of the, you know, I mean, I've dealt
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: with codependency in my life and the people pleasing and
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: hearing you say it again, you know, even at your
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: stage of life, it's like it's going. where that can
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: creep back in, you know, where you said, okay, you know,
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: and we were just having a conversation the other day
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: and I said, wow, this has creeped back up in me.
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: I've got to take a deep breath. I've got to,
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: you know, take this captive and go, wait, I can't
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: be worried about upsetting other people or I am still loved,
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: you know, like I, but it does. It's like, I
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: was like, wow, I thought I was free of this
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: from years ago. And then here it is smack right
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: in front of my face again, you know?
• 32:50
  Speaker 4: And I think it's a, So, I mean, the piece
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: about it is I'm not going to arrive until I
• 32:58
  Speaker 4: get to heaven. And my guess is that when I
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: get to heaven, there'll be some things I still got
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: to work on. It just will be from a different
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: model because I'll be complete. But I'll be growing more
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: and more in love with Jesus for all eternity. You know, wow. Um,
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: and that's what we're doing down here on this earth.
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: We're growing more and more in love with him, understanding
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: who he is. Cause I mean, the concept of who
• 33:27
  Speaker 4: he is is so big. It's so, I can't comprehend it.
• 33:33
  Speaker 4: Like I can, I can go to a, a Christian
• 33:37
  Speaker 4: concert and there's thousands of people there. And I'm thinking, huh?
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: God knows all these people individually. and all about them.
• 33:48
  Speaker 4: I can't comprehend that. And I think, is it going
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: to be that crowded in heaven?
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: Am I going to have my time?
• 33:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: Am I going to have space for me time here?
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 33:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: So here's another question for you. So how can, how
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: can past wounds affect the way we show up with
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: the people closest to us?
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: Kind of what we're talking about.
• 34:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Okay. That's a good one. Past wounds. Well, you
• 34:14
  Speaker 4: come into your marriage, not knowing in this relationship. Now
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: I've been showing him all the strategies of protection. I'm like,
• 34:22
  Speaker 4: which ones are yours? Which ones are mine? So that,
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: that we know ahead of time. Oh, so you go
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: and shoot basketballs when you're upset. Okay. I'll know now.
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: Are you kind of, you know, you'll, you kind of
• 34:36
  Speaker 4: peace out, go to your man cave. Because we, there,
• 34:42
  Speaker 4: there does need to, to have space and time for
• 34:45
  Speaker 4: us to contract. Contract is, I'm protecting my heart. Expansion is, hey,
• 34:52
  Speaker 4: I'm fully me and I'm just being, and I feel
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: confident in who God is and who I am in him.
• 34:59
  Speaker 4: But there's times I have to go in and figure
• 35:02
  Speaker 4: out why am I protecting my heart right now? The
• 35:06
  Speaker 4: problem is, is when the couple goes, is protecting their
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: heart at the same time and using their strategies of
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: protection or their fig leaves, there's disconnection there. And each
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: of you can, you can feel that disconnection. You can
• 35:21
  Speaker 4: feel that place of weight. They just left me. And
• 35:26
  Speaker 4: then in the subconscious realm, realm, maybe when you got
• 35:31
  Speaker 4: abandoned before you tried to get attention, try to get
• 35:35
  Speaker 4: the other person's attention. So you got on the hamster
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: wheel and you tried to, get the person back and
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: you started bidding for a connection and Hey, you know,
• 35:42
  Speaker 4: and that person's like, Oh wait, my mom used to
• 35:45
  Speaker 4: do that in the subconscious realm. And they take off like, Oh,
• 35:48
  Speaker 4: I gotta get, I gotta get out of here. And
• 35:51
  Speaker 4: then the person's going faster and that person's leaving, you know, and, and,
• 35:55
  Speaker 4: and then you get stuck in these patterns of behavior
• 35:59
  Speaker 4: in your marriage. And so first and foremost, you have
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: to have an awareness of what do you do? What
• 36:06
  Speaker 4: have you done? What do you do to protect your heart?
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: Maybe for me, my awareness this summer is I was
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: just tiptoeing around a person that I needed to speak
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: the truth with. And I was just tiptoeing around it
• 36:22
  Speaker 4: because I didn't want to create conflict. And so that's
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: my first step of having awareness. Step two is now
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: I have to step into the truth in this relationship
• 36:34
  Speaker 4: and that is going to, that's been difficult in my life.
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: I have to step into the truth of it and
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: speak it and, and just being willing to know that
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: God is with me in that process. But in a couple,
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: when you're dealing with a couple, you're having to stay
• 36:52
  Speaker 4: in the ring. You're having to each be able to
• 36:56
  Speaker 4: have the, the own, your own internal awareness. I, I,
• 37:01
  Speaker 4: I think I just tell a story. I think this
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: helps tell a story. So Bill and I were mountain
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: biking and y'all heard this one before. And we were
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: we were getting off because some youngsters had changed it
• 37:16
  Speaker 4: and it was more technical and we were getting off
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: and we were supposed to get off. But there was
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: a part we thought we knew and we got on
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: and he was ahead of me. and the mountain bike
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: went up, it went down, it went up, it went down,
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: it went up, it went down. I thought I was
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: going to die, okay? So, he was probably 20 feet
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: in front of me, but in my brain, I had
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: gone to the limbic fear brain and said to him,
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: when I got to the bottom and survived, I said,
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: you left me, and he's like, He's very calm, very
• 37:53
  Speaker 4: much in his adult agency, not in his cray cray brain.
• 37:56
  Speaker 4: And he says, no, I didn't. I'm right here. But
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: my brain is thinking you left me. And I said
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: that again. He's like, no, I didn't. I'm right here.
• 38:10
  Speaker 4: And so then here's what my brain did. It went
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: to survival mechanisms. It was like, I will ride this
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: trail by myself. I don't need anybody. I'm fine. I
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: will just see you at the car. And in my brain,
• 38:25
  Speaker 4: it wanted to do that. And so, but by this
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: point in life, self-regulation, I learned to slow it down
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: and I played it out first. If I did that,
• 38:37
  Speaker 4: number one, I'm going to have to put the bike
• 38:39
  Speaker 4: up on the bike rack because he always did that
• 38:41
  Speaker 4: for me. And then we're not going to talk the
• 38:44
  Speaker 4: rest of the day. And then that's going to be horrible. So, hmm,
• 38:49
  Speaker 4: what's going on? What's happening? Now I'm coming to the
• 38:53
  Speaker 4: inner child, the vulnerable place inside of me that's saying
• 38:57
  Speaker 4: there's a need going on here. And so I slowed
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: it down some more. And I was like, I told
• 39:02
  Speaker 4: him the truth. I was honest. And I said to Bill,
• 39:07
  Speaker 4: I was terrified. And his response now, because I'm sure
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: by this time he's praying to the Holy Spirit, help
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: me know what to do with this woman right now.
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: And he's praying and he's going, I know, he said,
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: and I will walk with you as long as you
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: need to walk and we'll go as far as you
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: need to go. before we get back on the bike
• 39:33
  Speaker 4: now we called that spiritual mathematics because what that did
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: for me is that like he's not telling me shut
• 39:40
  Speaker 4: up you little whatever bad word you little cray cray
• 39:45
  Speaker 4: girl he's not saying I'm too much He's not saying,
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: get over it. He's saying, I am with you. I
• 39:56
  Speaker 4: understand that that was really scary for you. And in that,
• 40:01
  Speaker 4: that was Jesus to me. That was Jesus. He's like,
• 40:06
  Speaker 4: I am not leaving you nor forsaking you, even when
• 40:09
  Speaker 4: you're in your cray cray brain. I'm here. Now, my
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: work was still to get out of cray cray brain,
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: that fear brain, to come into vulnerability and honesty and
• 40:23
  Speaker 4: then to be able to have him join me in
• 40:25
  Speaker 4: that was just it was the most healing one of
• 40:29
  Speaker 4: the most healing things I've ever experienced um of having
• 40:34
  Speaker 4: him join me and that's what I'm talking about when
• 40:37
  Speaker 4: when we're it's not that we're not going to have
• 40:39
  Speaker 4: the contraction it's not that we're not going to go
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: into the fear places it's how do we do that
• 40:44
  Speaker 4: in the couple and being able to benevolently benevolently detached
• 40:48
  Speaker 4: from my stuff Then it was my job to self-regulate.
• 40:56
  Speaker 4: He held the space in his love and compassion. He
• 41:01
  Speaker 4: didn't try to rescue me. He didn't try to pull
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: me out. It's going to be okay. You know, whatever.
• 41:06
  Speaker 4: He didn't go to Cotopensi. He just held the space.
• 41:10
  Speaker 4: I did the regulation. He loved me through it. And
• 41:16
  Speaker 4: we just had this sacred moment. And we literally walked together.
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: through the trail until I was ready to get back on.
• 41:24
  Speaker 4: And then we just had this beautiful, intimate time together.
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's beautiful. I mean, yes, we've heard that, but
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: it feels like the first time. Just like the beauty
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: in that space, like what you're saying, to enter as
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: he's not Jesus, but it is what Jesus is doing
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: and holding that space. But it's us. You said there's
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: so much... there was so much individual work you went
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: through in yourself in that process of I'm self-regulating. I
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: need to bring my, myself to a certain space.
• 41:59
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: Of, and just getting curious of like, where's this coming from?
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: Cause this clearly he didn't like realistically, he didn't leave me.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: I'm still here. I'm alive. I didn't die. Like the things,
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: you know, you're, you know, but it's, but it's right. Exactly.
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: But it's being able to, when that's met, like with
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: the co-regulation like that, it's, there's, that's healing in itself, right?
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: Like that healed a place in you that otherwise wouldn't
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: have been in that moment, you know?
• 42:28
  Speaker 4: Exactly. It is this just beautiful place of, which is
• 42:34
  Speaker 4: a practice. It's a real practice. I love the way
• 42:40
  Speaker 4: what John Eldredge, speaks of in his podcast, it's just
• 42:44
  Speaker 4: like only the love of God between me and them
• 42:47
  Speaker 4: right now, only the fruit of the spirit. It's being
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: able to go, can I benevolently detach from their, that
• 42:54
  Speaker 4: knowing that they're in their fight, like freeze part of
• 42:56
  Speaker 4: their brain, they're in their protection, their protection, protective strategies
• 43:01
  Speaker 4: of their heart. I need to continue to stay grounded
• 43:06
  Speaker 4: in that place for myself, hold the space. They have to,
• 43:11
  Speaker 4: they have to, Figure it out. They're raging at me.
• 43:15
  Speaker 4: Then I have to hold the space. And at some
• 43:19
  Speaker 4: point I might say, hey, I think this is a
• 43:22
  Speaker 4: time we need to pause and get off of that.
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: Just take a break. But if one person can self-regulate
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: while the other person holds the space, it gives you
• 43:35
  Speaker 4: this beautiful, intimate space. relationship is just such a gift. Yeah.
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: So my kind of last, I guess, well, question, I'm
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: going to bring it over from there of that. It
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: just made me think of this. I don't think we
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: even talked about this, but is, is that space, you know,
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: and as we work with a lot of couples and
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: we've been this couple, right. Where, where one is able
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: to self-regulate and one is not right. And what does
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: that look like even as parents, right?
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: We're not going to talk about which one couldn't self-regulate
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: and which one could.
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: I mean, it was both, babe, at times.
• 44:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah. But in that space, you know, in working with couples,
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: you hear a lot of like, hey, especially in crisis, right,
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: where whether it's betrayal, addiction, trauma. That's happening of like, hey,
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: so I'm able to self-regulate and I'm working really hard
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: on my nervous system and, you know, all the things
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: that are coming up to heal. But I walk right
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: back into that environment and I'm right back into survival
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: and fight or flight. I'm right back into, you know,
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: and so we get a lot of, you know, as
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: I know you do of, so we need to separate.
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: So I need to live somewhere else. So I need to,
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: especially right now, you know, with a lot of that's,
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: the decision of like, and, and we're not here to
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: make decisions for anyone. Um, and, and it's going, but
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: kind of, can you speak a little to that of
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: the person, what that looks like when that's happening? And
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: there is, you know, a rip half that's gone on.
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: The repair isn't going to be overnight and you are working.
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: It is important to work on yourself individually, right? However,
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: what is that?
• 45:25
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's very difficult. Um, I said, uh, I was
• 45:29
  Speaker 4: thinking of a couple where there was a lot of trauma.
• 45:33
  Speaker 4: And they were one of the couples that I would
• 45:35
  Speaker 4: say the separation really did work. But they did intensive
• 45:39
  Speaker 4: therapy in that separation. They were doing intensive individual therapy.
• 45:44
  Speaker 4: And then they would come back into couples therapy. It
• 45:47
  Speaker 4: was very intense. Because if you separate, there's relief there. Like, ooh.
• 45:53
  Speaker 4: this is great. I kind of like living by myself.
• 45:55
  Speaker 4: This is so fun, you know, cause I don't have
• 45:58
  Speaker 4: to deal with that, you know, and, and it's so easy. Um,
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: but again, uh, separation, uh, is my last resort just
• 46:09
  Speaker 4: because of the relief that it gives to couples. Um,
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: but if there's an abusive situation going on and that, and,
• 46:17
  Speaker 4: and there's, um, a person who doesn't want to get well, um,
• 46:22
  Speaker 4: that might be the very answer of what needs to happen.
• 46:25
  Speaker 4: Cause usually in a marriage like that, that marriage has
• 46:28
  Speaker 4: to die before it can start to live again. So
• 46:31
  Speaker 4: what was has to die and there has to be steps,
• 46:34
  Speaker 4: but there has to be intentional steps if they both
• 46:37
  Speaker 4: still want the marriage. And that would be intensive therapy,
• 46:42
  Speaker 4: individual and then back to couple. And, um, and the
• 46:45
  Speaker 4: commitment was I've got to do whatever I got to
• 46:47
  Speaker 4: do to get well. Um, and so at the, it, it,
• 46:53
  Speaker 4: One person can't do the work for two. So, yeah,
• 46:58
  Speaker 4: it takes two. Yeah, it takes two to heal. You know,
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: we're traumatized in relationships and we're healed in relationships and
• 47:06
  Speaker 4: both people have to want to heal. And so, again,
• 47:11
  Speaker 4: those are those are really hard. Those are those are
• 47:17
  Speaker 4: the ones I if I have one person wants to
• 47:19
  Speaker 4: heal one that doesn't. it's that place of powerlessness that
• 47:23
  Speaker 4: we really feel of like, I'm really powerless. And so
• 47:26
  Speaker 4: then I've got to really go to God and seek
• 47:28
  Speaker 4: after him to see what he would have me to
• 47:32
  Speaker 4: do in this situation. And y'all can speak to that.
• 47:37
  Speaker 4: Y'all can speak to the, the heart of that and
• 47:40
  Speaker 4: what you had to do to, to get through that.
• 47:46
  Speaker 4: But yeah, that's a, that's a hard question. Not one,
• 47:51
  Speaker 4: Not one that I have a great answer to.
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was great.
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: I thought you answered it pretty well.
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: Well, it's great insight, right? Because there's insight in that,
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: just what you said of, you know, there is the
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: relief in that, but then like there becomes comfort in
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: the relief, unless there's a plan, like you said, and
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: this is a removal of abusive situations. But like we
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: always say, like there needs to be two willing partners
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: in this healing, you know? And when you don't have one, Um,
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: you know, and you get a lot of the, from
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: the addictive world of, you know, I'm trying to help them.
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to support. And it's like that space of
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: you can't fix, heal anyone on your own.
• 48:32
  Speaker 4: So now, I mean, you have to want to, and
• 48:36
  Speaker 4: to want to means there has to be change. Um,
• 48:40
  Speaker 4: you know, and Sandy's doing the same thing over and
• 48:42
  Speaker 4: over again, expecting a different result. And you can do
• 48:45
  Speaker 4: that a whole lifetime. There are people, who can stay
• 48:48
  Speaker 4: in that addictive pattern or those strategies of protection their
• 48:52
  Speaker 4: whole life. And they're fine with it. I was just
• 48:56
  Speaker 4: not fine with it. I was not fine with being
• 48:59
  Speaker 4: stuck in those places. And I don't regret the hard
• 49:05
  Speaker 4: that I had to go through to get to where
• 49:06
  Speaker 4: I am today.
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: And that's why you love helping and just like us,
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: helping people get there because- It's hard. Like you started
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: saying that in the beginning, life is hard. It's healing
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: is hard. Like it's painful. You know, it's sad. You
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: have to feel the pain, you know, to heal, but
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: it's so worth it. And what God wants for us
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: individually and our relationships and marriages is to be able
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: to live life. Like you said, with Bill, like to
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: the fullest. And what does that look like?
• 49:38
  Speaker 4: You know, Well, and it draws us into a deeper
• 49:41
  Speaker 4: intimacy with God as we were going through the pain
• 49:45
  Speaker 4: and I'm crying out like in Psalms. And then I'm
• 49:49
  Speaker 4: getting to know God at a deeper level that I
• 49:54
  Speaker 4: would ever have known had I not gone through the pain.
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 49:57
  Speaker 4: So good. Yeah.
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: I have one more question that's on here that I
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: feel like it would be cool. So if there's someone
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: out there that is trying to heal, right? and wants
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: to do the work, where can someone begin if they
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: want healing but feel overwhelmed or ashamed?
• 50:15
  Speaker 4: Well, overwhelmed is undernourished. So they're not nourishing their self.
• 50:22
  Speaker 4: And shame is, the benefit of our shame is humility.
• 50:26
  Speaker 4: And so they're taking matters into their own hands. So
• 50:30
  Speaker 4: it really is a place of surrender, right? They have
• 50:36
  Speaker 4: to say, I'm willing to surrender control, because control is
• 50:40
  Speaker 4: rooted in fear, to be able to get free. And
• 50:46
  Speaker 4: then they should call Josh and Liz. So simple. Absolutely.
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: So simple. So easy.
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: No, that is so good. I'm so glad you asked
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: that one, because you just flipped it on its head, right?
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: Of like, instead of, you know, because... our eyes are
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: on our circumstance then and ourselves and the overwhelm. And
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: like you said, the undernourished, like you've taught us that
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: and the ashamed part. And then, but to surrender it
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: and our eyes are then on Jesus, not our circumstance.
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: And that changes everything.
• 51:15
  Speaker 4: Right. And surrender means I've got to let go of
• 51:18
  Speaker 4: my life and will and, and give it to God
• 51:22
  Speaker 4: and step into my pain, which is jumping out of
• 51:24
  Speaker 4: the airplane without a parachute on. But then the beautiful
• 51:28
  Speaker 4: thing is that when we surrender and we're living in
• 51:31
  Speaker 4: our authentic selves, it's just like when I go to
• 51:34
  Speaker 4: the retreat, there'll be 13 women. I'll be looking at them.
• 51:37
  Speaker 4: They'll probably have some of their guards up. They don't
• 51:40
  Speaker 4: know me. But by the end of the week, we'll
• 51:44
  Speaker 4: all be looking at each other and we'll be going, oh,
• 51:47
  Speaker 4: there you are. And I think God sees us and
• 51:51
  Speaker 4: he's always saying, there you are. Let me come in.
• 51:54
  Speaker 4: I love you. I love who you are. I delight
• 51:57
  Speaker 4: in who you are. I love who you are. Yeah,
• 52:00
  Speaker 4: all of who you are. I'm not looking at your
• 52:03
  Speaker 4: big leaps. I'm looking at your heart. And I just
• 52:06
  Speaker 4: want to be with it.
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: Lori, thank you so much.
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: I hate that you're not in person. I said I'm like,
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: I'm hugging you and like, like the air hugs.
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: But yes. But we adore you and are so grateful
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: for you and are so excited. We'll talk more about
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: your marriage.
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: Your upcoming wedding coming up. But if this episode spoke
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: to you and impacted your life, please let us know.
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: Like it, share it, subscribe, send it to a friend.
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: You're not alone.
• 52:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: And again, you said it and we said on episode,
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: it's like there's so much to this life that we
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: go through that. You're not the only one dealing with
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: whatever you're dealing with. I promise you there are people
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: dealing with it. So like I said, like Lori said,
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: you can reach out to us. We'd love to help
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: or reach out to someone close to you. Just start there.
• 53:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: Lori, we would love for you to pray for people,
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: you know, before you leave.
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.
• 53:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So Jesus, just as Liz was asking me to pray,
• 53:11
  Speaker 4: I thought of a man and a woman that just
• 53:17
  Speaker 4: feel hopeless. They feel like they're so stuck. And I
• 53:22
  Speaker 4: just pray, Jesus, that you would encourage them with your
• 53:26
  Speaker 4: light and your love over them and that you would
• 53:30
  Speaker 4: remove that spirit of desolation off of them and that
• 53:35
  Speaker 4: you would just pour your river of life in and
• 53:39
  Speaker 4: through them and that you would just show them your
• 53:43
  Speaker 4: Eden glory, what it is that you intended for them,
• 53:46
  Speaker 4: that you would show them your delight, your love, your
• 53:51
  Speaker 4: care over them. I pray that you would give them
• 53:55
  Speaker 4: courage to step into the harder things, to move out
• 53:59
  Speaker 4: of that place of desolation into your light. I pray, Jesus,
• 54:04
  Speaker 4: that you would provide for them brothers and sisters in
• 54:09
  Speaker 4: Christ that would be people that would encourage them and
• 54:13
  Speaker 4: and love them until the other side and to give
• 54:17
  Speaker 4: them hope where they feel hopeless. God, that you would
• 54:21
  Speaker 4: give them a group, a place to go, counselors to see, God,
• 54:26
  Speaker 4: a retreat to go to. God, that we were never
• 54:29
  Speaker 4: meant to work this life, to live this life alone,
• 54:33
  Speaker 4: and that you have called us to live with one another,
• 54:37
  Speaker 4: to encourage one another, to admonish one another, to rejoice together.
• 54:41
  Speaker 4: with those who rejoice and weep with those who weep. God,
• 54:45
  Speaker 4: just pour your spirit out upon these brothers and sisters
• 54:49
  Speaker 4: in Christ. Just anoint them right now. Just give them
• 54:53
  Speaker 4: kisses from heaven. God, just kiss them, adore them. God,
• 54:59
  Speaker 4: bless them. I just pray this in your holy name, Jesus. Amen.
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: Thank you for spending time with us. If today's conversation
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: encouraged you, we'd love for you to subscribe, leave a review,
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: and it can help more families find conversations like these.
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: You can also follow along on social media for more
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: encouragement and resources throughout the week. And if what you're
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: hearing resonates deeply, if you believe in strengthening homes and
• 55:25
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• 55:29
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• 55:31
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• 55:34
  Speaker 1: Every conversation matters and every home matters. There's always room
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: for you here. We'll see you next time.