Latest / System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation / Co-Dependency Checklist and Patterns of Recovery

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Co-Dependency Checklist and Patterns of Recovery · System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation

• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the System Speak podcast, a podcast about dissociative identity disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to longtime listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: Okay, you guys. I have to go through this. I really wanted to ask Jules to go through this with me, or even Nathan because of all the years that we have co parented and everything else, but literally asking them to do it for me or with me is the most codependent thing. And what I have found is on this random website is this PDF file, which I can link to in the show notes, that is called, well, it's actually from a website that on their paper it says Treehouse Recovery, sustainable addiction recovery for men. So it's gendered, I'm not a man, I'm gonna do this thing.
• 2:04
  Okay, whatever. So, I am not happy about it, but I really feel like I need to learn this. And so I know I've been reading the book, but I found this paper, and so I'll link to it. But anyway, here we go. Are you ready for this?
• 2:21
  I have to do it on my own, not to be overly independent or not ask for help, but because asking someone to do your codependency homework with you is literally the most codependent thing, like as codependent as it gets, so I have to do this. Oh my goodness. Okay, it says, caretaking codependent may think and feel responsible for other people and other people's feelings, thoughts, actions, choices, wants, needs, well-being, lack of well-being, and ultimate destiny. No pressure, you guys, but that is on point. Next.
• 3:05
  We may feel anxiety, pity, and guilt when other people have a problem. Oh, that was big, we literally talked about that last week in therapy, feeling guilty when other people have problems, even when it's not my fireball, it's so hard. We may feel compelled, almost forced, to help that person solve the problem, such as offering unwanted advice, giving rapid fire series of suggestions, or fixing their feelings. Ugh, I can't do this. Can we cancel this idea?
• 3:47
  Feel angry when our health is not effective. I feel like I have experienced that as the children have become teenagers, they like no longer want what I have to offer the world, and I'm like, well, like, I don't know what to do for you. I'm here, if you wanna talk, that's cool, get some groceries. But, okay, but I feel like that's healthy and normal. My therapist keeps reassuring me of that, but I'm not 100% convinced.
• 4:16
  It is an M crisis, you guys. Definitely was her issue. Anticipating other people's needs. Oh. This is really tricksy.
• 4:31
  I feel like for lots of us, especially with relational trauma, we kept safe by anticipating other people's needs. If we could prevent the trauma drama, if we could tend to people, we would not be in danger or neglected or crisis because of what would happen if we didn't. That being said, I have also been on the receiving end of this, and it can be really, really weird, almost transy, where, like, if your needs are so anticipated, you don't actually have opportunity to be human, to feel anything, to be awake. Like, that's the whole reason it worked for us. When we fawned as children or when we anticipated other people's needs as children, it kept them calm and dissociated and asleep or whatever and that's what kept us safe.
• 5:32
  But now as adults in healthy relationships, that's actually not helpful and for me at least, it is literally the opposite of what I'm trying to do in therapy. So it can actually be really toxic or dangerous and that is confusing when you know they're trying to be helpful and not malicious. We can wonder why others do not do the same for them. I feel like reciprocity was one of the first things I learned about relationships on this healing journey, I mean, like, since the podcast has started, that even if you're at a slow pace or literally at your capacity for what you have to offer, making sure that where you want to build friendships, there are people there participating with you. One thing I just cannot do anymore is do it by myself.
• 6:25
  And so, like, when I try really hard, maybe I get it all wrong, maybe I'm anticipating the wrong needs, maybe I'm worrying about them instead of myself, I don't know, I get it wrong in so many ways. But if there's not a response or reciprocity, but then I can't I can't make it happen by myself. All relationships are both people. And that is, I feel like, a really hard lesson for sure. Codependents may find themselves saying yes when they mean no.
• 7:00
  Doing things you do not really want to be doing, doing more than their fair share of work, and doing things other people can do for themselves. I feel like this is in two different categories, those four things. One goes back to reciprocity and fireballs, right, like it needs to be balanced. Both people need to be participating in a relationship, and also, like, I'm a grown adult. I can take out my trash, I can do my laundry, I can do the dishes, I can take care of myself, right?
• 7:32
  So I need to be doing those adulting things. And also, the finding themselves saying yes when they mean no or doing things they don't really wanna be doing, I feel like that's an issue of consent. And one reason we are so careful in relationships, in friendships, in the community, about this issue. Because if people cannot say no, they cannot actually say yes. And when we are working or navigating so many shirts in me, so many shirts in you, so many shirts in each other, that is a lot to make sure that consent is actually happening, and I still struggle with this one.
• 8:21
  Like, I don't think it's the same as fawning because it's not I guess it isn't my expense, but, like, I don't know. This one's just still hard. I'm gonna have to take that to therapy, the saying yes when I mean no. The next one is not knowing what we want and need, or if we do, telling ourselves what we want and need is not important. Ding ding ding ding ding.
• 8:50
  Trying to please others instead of ourselves. Ugh, okay. Finding it easier to feel and express anger about injustices done to others rather than injustices done to themselves. Oh, Jules and I have talked about this on the podcast already. Like, we will get really upset, like, have really big feelings when we hear about trauma and deprivation that happened to the other person.
• 9:14
  But like, we don't even notice it in ourselves, we're like laughing, like, it's fine, it was just a thing. Yeah, this one is a hard piece. Codependent caretaking. You will feel safest when you are giving, ouch. Feel insecure and guilty when someone else gives to you, that makes reciprocity really hard.
• 9:39
  If you are only giving to others, the others literally cannot participate in relationships. So it makes it hard because if you have someone in your life who's trying hard to show up, but they don't have the room and space to even make efforts, much less learn how to get it right, then there's still not reciprocity and you're actually stealing their development. If you have someone in your life that doesn't know they need to show up or doesn't know how to show up, they can't learn if you're doing it all for them. That's a really, really hard one. Caretaking codependents may feel sad because they spend their whole lives giving to other people and nobody gives to them.
• 10:25
  Yeah, I feel like that was the in crisis, like, four years ago. They may feel bored, empty, and worthless if they do not have a crisis in their lives, a problem to solve, or someone to help. I feel like for us, that shows up when the children are gone. Like, last summer when they went to Oklahoma, it was tricksy because all of a sudden, like, we didn't have to take care of anyone. Relationship, people get distracted and caring for other people outside the relationship.
• 11:18
  So then it's like there's always too many people in the room. So that is a really, really hard thing. It's something I've talked about in therapy before that is just really, really tricky. We may over commit ourselves, we may feel pressured, we may feel angry, victimized, unappreciated, and used, we may find other people become impatient or angry because of all those things. Oh, that's great, now we can just all be upset together.
• 11:53
  Okay. Page two. Okay, so what I forgot to say at the beginning, I'm so sorry, I'm so anxious about doing this. What is interesting is this paper, and again, I'll link to it in the show notes, but the which is like the description under the episode. It should say, like, there's a description of what's in the episode, and then that, like, the trigger warning or whatever, that's where the show notes are.
• 12:22
  Anyway, what's interesting about this particular paper is that it actually has different kinds of codependence, like it classifies different styles of codependency. So that one that we just did was the caretaking codependency, this one is the low self worth codependency. It says, we may come from trouble, repressed, or dysfunctional families. Well, yeah. Or we may deny our family was troubled, repressed, or dysfunctional.
• 12:59
  I have seen that in my own family where some of us like hyperfixate on what went wrong because no one will talk about it and then other people completely denying it because other people are talking about it. So there's some hyperarousal and hypoarousal in a relational sense. Isn't that wild? And all of it is still freeze response, all of it is still dissociation. Saying nothing hard happened is dissociation, and saying, oh, it was so hard but I can't remember and don't wanna talk about it, that's also dissociation, isn't that fascinating?
• 13:35
  Low self worth codependents may blame themselves for everything, may pick on themselves for everything including the way they think, feel, look, act, and behave. They may get angry, defensive, self righteous, and indignant when others blame and criticize them. They may reject compliments or praise, oh my goodness, you guys, how many of us do that, reject compliments or praise? I got busted in the community, in advanced topics group, someone called me out. They were like, we have recognized that when someone gives you a compliment or praise, you say, oh that is so kind.
• 14:16
  That's so funny because I didn't even know I was doing it. I remember learning how to say that in therapy as a way of practicing accepting it, but I think it, I think I got called out as like using that to deflect it, and I will continue doing so. Oh my goodness. Okay. We may feel different from the rest of the world, we may think we are not good enough, we may feel guilty about doing things for ourselves, we may fear rejection, take things personally, We could have been victims of abuse, abandonment, or alcoholism.
• 14:58
  Feel like victims, because we were, right? So that made sense. Tell themselves we can't do anything right. Oh, shiny happy in the house. Be afraid of making mistakes.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: Shout out to the fawners.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: Wonder why we have a tough time making decisions. Because to know what you want, to know what you need, requires you to exist. Trixie, right? Does that make sense? Low self worth codependents have a lot of shoulds, feel a lot of guilt, feel ashamed of who they are, think their lives aren't worth living, try to help other people live their lives instead, get strong feelings of embarrassment and failure, Believe good things won't ever happen, believe they don't deserve good things, wish other people would like and love them, believe other people couldn't possibly like or love them, and then try to prove that they're good enough for other people so that is fawning, right?
• 16:16
  And then lastly, low self worth codependence settle for being needed. I would add to that, I think this group of people, or these shirts, I think they also feel scared if they are not needed. So sometimes that plays into fawning, where we make ourselves more and more indispensable to ensure that we are needed. Like, it's a way of feeling safe, even though it's at our expense. That is a hard one.
• 16:56
  Okay, this is a little different rather than a style of codependency, it just is more like when we are repressing things, we may push our thoughts and feelings out of awareness. Remember Inside Out two, where she's like, let's just throw it to the back of the mind. Yay, dissociation for the win. We may become afraid to let themselves be who they are, we may appear rigid and controlled. So this is tricksy because often when we talk about controlling people, we think about abusers, we think about narcissists, we think about these malicious attempts.
• 17:33
  There are also not malicious controller shirts, hearts, people who sometimes are controlling because if we can control the variables, then we can feel safer. So when we cannot control the variables, like during abuse or deprivation or trauma, all of these things, we don't feel safe. So sort of trying to counter act that, we work really hard at controlling on the variables, but then that ends up, rather than actually being helpful, that ends up sucking the life out of our relationships, and actually causes harm because it ends up reenacting things, even though it was not malicious or intentional. Does that make sense? It says codependents may also obsess, they may feel terribly anxious about problems and people, they may have a hard time letting things go, they may have a hard time moving forward or acting.
• 18:40
  The codependent book talked about that too, that people who are codependent don't act, they just stay in the situation and continue to be shocked by it. I'm laughing because it's so real. They may worry about little things, talk about other people, lose sleep over problems or other people's behavior. Worry, wonder, wish, and wait. You guys, those are the four w's.
• 19:07
  Worry, wonder, wish, and wait. And also, never find answers. May check on other people, but not ask to be checked on. Try to catch people and act some misbehavior, or save evidence of bad behavior to remind them and then obsess about that. Feel unable to quit talking, thinking, or worrying about other people or past problems.
• 19:34
  Focus all their energy on this, wonder why they don't have energy, and then wonder why they can't get things done. Well, like, when we're dissociated or obsessing about hurts because we're not processing hurts and those wounds are just raw, it's hard to tend to, like, functional things when we feel raw, right? Okay. Okay, I'm gonna skip to page six, just because pages three, four, and five really we also talked about from the stuff in the book. There's a whole section here that talks about anger, and we're actually gonna come back to that when we talk about other things.
• 20:16
  But here's something really interesting that I think is also important to include. It says, some codependents may also have sexual problems. And then here's the list of examples. They may be caretakers in the bedroom, They may have sex when they do not want to. They may have sex when what they actually need is to be held, nurtured, and loved.
• 20:49
  They may be afraid of losing control. They may have a difficult time asking for what they need in bed, they may withdraw emotionally from their partner, or actually feel repulsed by their partner. They definitely don't talk about it. They force themselves to have sex anyway, and because they're dissociated from it, they reduce sex to a technical act, and then are confused about why they do not enjoy it, and because they don't enjoy it, they are losing interest in sex, and then make up reasons to avoid it. We can just all talk about that with our own therapist, that can be your fireball.
• 21:41
  And then lastly, remember that codependents may be extremely responsible, They often become martyrs, sacrificing their happiness and that of others for causes that do not require sacrifice. We find it difficult to have fun and be spontaneous. They may be passive aggressive. They laugh when they need to cry. That's interesting, we talked about that in therapy.
• 22:16
  They stay loyal to their people even when it hurts. Wow, this was a lot, this was a lot. Okay, Treehouse Recovery. Okay. So that link I will put in the show notes.
• 22:36
  Then there's another one I wanted to share in case, maybe I already have, but it's more about the recovery patterns. This one is from CODA, Codependent Anonymous, so coda.org. I'll put the link on the chat there as well. But it has interesting patterns that maybe come from the same thing, maybe that's what the treehouse one was trying to do. But what is interesting is this one lays it out in a chart.
• 23:09
  You guys, I like me a good chart. And on one side, it talks about what it looks like when it's codependent, and on the other side, it says what it looks like in recovery. And so, I wanna give some of those examples because I think it's really powerful and again, leaves us in a place of hope, like acknowledging what's so hard, looking at what's so hard, and also there is hope for healing. So here are some examples in the denial pattern. Codependents often have difficulty identifying what they need, want, or feel.
• 23:51
  But in recovery, I am aware of my feelings and needs, and I identify them often even in the moment. And I know the difference between my thoughts and my feelings. I feel like I am at like, phase one of that in therapy. Another example of denial is codependence often mask pain in various ways, such as anger, humor, or isolation. But in recovery, I am aware of my painful feelings and express them appropriately.
• 24:34
  And then this one in the denial pattern, it was one I was worried about and talked about a lot in therapy, like how is it this, how is it that, because I wanted to make sure I was being healthy, but this lays it out really specifically. Codependents often do not recognize the unavailability physically, emotionally, or relationally of those people to whom they are attracted. But in recovery, I pursue pursue intimate relationships only with those who want and are able to engage in healthy and loving relationships. So that's good, right? Okay, the next pattern is that low self esteem pattern again that we talked about earlier.
• 25:21
  An example would be codependents often judge what they think, say, or do very harshly and never as good enough. In recovery, I can accept myself as I am and emphasize progress over perfection. I like that example. We talked about several of the others so I wanted to go and see what else. On the next page, page two, oh, that same thing again that's so hard.
• 25:54
  Codependents often are unable to identify or ask for what they need and want. But in recovery, I meet my own needs and wants when possible. I reach out for help when it's necessary and appropriate. So this is interesting too, there's a compliance pattern. I don't even know what that means.
• 26:18
  That means like I'm doing what I'm supposed to in therapy or not, or following the rules or not, or staying on the blanket or not. I don't know what that means by compliance. Let's see, codependents often put aside their own interests in order to do what others want. But in recovery, I consider my interests and feelings when asked to participate in another's plans. Oh, the next one is really hard for me, so what am I complying with, other people instead of myself?
• 26:53
  I'm not sure what that means. But here's one I struggle with for sure, codependents often are hypervigilant regarding the feelings of others and take on those feelings. Jules and I have talked about that on the podcast, I'm like, is this your feeling or is it my feeling? I don't even know, let's pause and look at this. But in recovery, I can separate my feelings from the feelings of others.
• 27:17
  I allow myself to experience my feelings, and others to be responsible for their feelings. Codependents are afraid to express their beliefs, opinions, and feelings when they differ from those of others. In recovery, I respect my own opinions and feelings, and express them appropriately. Codependents accept sexual attention when what they want is love. But in recovery, my sexuality is grounded in genuine intimacy and connection.
• 27:54
  When I need to feel loved, I express my heart's desire. I do not settle for sex without love. Wow. Page three, control patterns. Codependents often freely offer advice and direction without being asked.
• 28:19
  In recovery, I give advice only when asked. Oh, we've talked about this in the community a lot, because sometimes people will be in a big struggle or have big feelings, and people will start dishing out resources and ideas, And while that is absolutely what is needed sometimes, we need to offer presents until someone asks for problem solving. Codependents use sexual attention to gain approval and acceptance. But in recovery, I embrace and celebrate my sexuality as evidence of my health and wholeness. I do not use it to gain the approval of others.
• 29:06
  Wow, these are really good, I'm just reading through here. Okay, I'm gonna skip to page four because that one has avoidance patterns. And I know, I know, I know there's no one in System Speak on the podcast or in the community who has any avoidance issues. So, let's read, shall we? Codependents often avoid emotional, physical, or sexual intimacy as a way to maintain distance.
• 29:39
  In recovery, I engage in emotional, physical, and sexual intimacy when it is healthy and appropriate for me. Codependents often use indirect or evasive communication to avoid conflict or confrontation. In recovery, I use direct and straightforward communication to resolve conflicts and deal appropriately with confrontations. Codependents often diminish their capacity capacity to have healthy relationships by declining to use the tools of recovery that are already available to them. In recovery, when I use the tools of recovery I am able to develop and maintain healthy relationships of my choosing.
• 30:30
  Codependents suppress their feelings or needs to avoid feeling vulnerable. In recovery, I embrace my own vulnerability by trusting and honoring my feelings and needs. Wow, these are really good. So, I'm still reading the codependency book, It's Taking Me Forever, because so much has been going on, avoidance, and because it's really intense and hard, authenticity. And so I am pacing myself, which is healthy, and also I found these and could not not share them.
• 31:08
  So I'm going to put them in the show notes, and I hope it's helpful for you as well in a having tools available kind of way, not a codependent kind of way.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening. Your support of the podcast, the workbooks, and the community means so much to us as we try to create something together that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing, and you can join us on the community at www.systemspeed.com. We'll see you there.