Latest / The You Project / #2167 Are We Creating Mini Me's? - Dr Sam Casey

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#2167 Are We Creating Mini Me's? - Dr Sam Casey · The You Project

0:01
Speaker 1: I'll get a team. It's Harps. Who else would it be?
0:02
Speaker 1: I hope you're bloody great. Doctor Sam Casey's one of
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Speaker 1: my favorites. I've got a few favorites. But after two
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Speaker 1: and a half thousand episodes or something, if you make
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Speaker 1: it in the top ten, you're definitely in the top ten.
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Speaker 1: Then that's something good. If you give a fuck about
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Speaker 1: my top ten, I guess, Hi, Sam.
0:18
Speaker 2: Hello, how are you going?
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Speaker 1: You're not bad? And you what is what is up
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Speaker 1: in the thriving metropolis of Karatha? How hot is it
0:26
Speaker 1: at the minute? Up there?
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Speaker 2: It's actually cooling down, which is really nice. You can
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Speaker 2: head out in the day and not feel like you're
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Speaker 2: melting and your skin is banning, So that's always good.
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Speaker 1: What is more? What is cooling down? What is that
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Speaker 1: like twenty eight during the day, like it's bloody freezing
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Speaker 1: for you to put on a jacket?
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Speaker 2: I actually I do. Well, it's because I wear it
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Speaker 2: jacket a lot actually in town because the aircns here
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Speaker 2: are just blasting everywhere you go, like offices and shopping centers.
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Speaker 2: So I actually find myself quite cold often because so
1:00
Speaker 2: yes always have my little hand cardigan.
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Speaker 1: So I mean we're not talking about this, but just
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Speaker 1: out of interest. So when you come to someone like
1:09
Speaker 1: Melbourne and think this morning it wasn't know it was
1:14
Speaker 1: like eight, feels like two or something the other day
1:19
Speaker 1: the you know how it have a feels like temperature.
1:22
Speaker 1: It's like here's the actual temperature, but feels like it
1:25
Speaker 1: feels like in Hampton was minus two. You would it
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Speaker 1: would take you a while to get used to that,
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Speaker 1: wouldn't it. Oh?
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Speaker 2: I didn't think I can ever get used to that. Again.
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Speaker 2: I find myself even going down to Perth, which is
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Speaker 2: obviously not as cold as Melbourne, I'm like my bones hat,
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Speaker 2: Like I went down in March, which is not even
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Speaker 2: like winter, and I obviously brought just my normal craftic clothes,
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Speaker 2: which is summer based, and I got there and I
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Speaker 2: had to go and buy a jacket like on day one,
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Speaker 2: because I was like I can't deal. Like, yeah, isn't it?
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Speaker 1: Isn't it funny how our physiology adapt and the thing
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Speaker 1: that used to be unbearable becomes not only bearable, but
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Speaker 1: now it's normal. And the thing that used to be
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Speaker 1: your normal, certain temperature, certain climate, certain humidity, that was
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Speaker 1: just your normal, then that becomes abnormal and almost intolerable.
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Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean I was born and raised in Perth,
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Speaker 2: so I was there for the twenty six years of
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Speaker 2: my life before I moved up to the Pilbra, And
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Speaker 2: now I'm like, how did I survive with this feather?
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Speaker 1: Do people come visit you and go how the fuck
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Speaker 1: do you live here?
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Speaker 2: Yeah? So my sister's actually based in Melbourne, so when
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Speaker 2: she came up, poor thing, she was just dying. She
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Speaker 2: was like, it is so hot, Like she couldn't be
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Speaker 2: outside with me. We were I was taking her around
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Speaker 2: and she was like, can we just go home in
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Speaker 2: the aircon?
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Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, it is it expensive. I would imagine your
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Speaker 1: power bill's got to be two hundred bucks a week, yeah,
2:55
Speaker 1: because you never don't have the air.
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Speaker 2: On, right exactly. Yeah, it's across the board, right you would. Yeah, like,
3:02
Speaker 2: especially with the summer months and certain parts of the year,
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Speaker 2: you just don't turn it off, like it's you kind
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Speaker 2: of need it or everything just melts in your pantry.
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Speaker 1: So yeah, what's and is I mean at a guess,
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Speaker 1: like how much deer is groceries in general in Kartha
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Speaker 1: versus Perth.
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Speaker 2: It's definitely more. I can't probably tell you the exact
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Speaker 2: you know, but it definitely is up here more. I
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Speaker 2: think everything we kind of joke around up here. I'm like, oh,
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Speaker 2: the pool a tax, you know, because things are just
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Speaker 2: more expensive here and they're more in demand. I think,
3:41
Speaker 2: you know, food trucks and little pop up places like
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Speaker 2: that can kind of charge what they want because you've
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Speaker 2: got limited options and it's a novelty and everyone loves
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Speaker 2: to go there. You know, it's something exciting and new,
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Speaker 2: So it's yeah, definitely there's a pool attax up here.
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Speaker 1: How much is petrol at the minute? Like, yeah, I.
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Speaker 2: Couldn't tell you.
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Speaker 1: What do you mean my head? I don't.
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Speaker 2: I just numbers are not my thing. I can't for
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Speaker 2: the life of me remember a sequence of numbers.
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Speaker 1: Well, it's three bucks ish depending on what you get. Oh,
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Speaker 1: it's come down a little bit in Melbourne. But yeah,
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Speaker 1: well I'm glad you live there and I don't live
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Speaker 1: there because I don't think there's not a lot of
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Speaker 1: need for flannel up there. Is there.
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Speaker 2: Maybe for like a month or two in the winter.
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Speaker 2: You should definitely that one day it would be an experience.
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Speaker 1: Well, you get me a speaking gig in Kartha and
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Speaker 1: or we could do a collab. We could do something together.
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Speaker 1: Get me up in the minds. How far above? Now
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Speaker 1: this could be fraught with danger because you just told
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Speaker 1: us numbers are not your thing. But how far in
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Speaker 1: distance above Perth is Karatha?
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Speaker 2: Oh? It's a.
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Speaker 1: Do you know what you should? Really we know more
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Speaker 1: about the place that you live. Let's ask chat GPT.
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Speaker 1: If chat GPT, I.
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Speaker 2: Feel like chat GPT would come through for me.
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Speaker 1: Hang on, here we go. How far in kilometers is
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Speaker 1: Karatha above Perth in Western Australia? So Caratha is quite
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Speaker 1: a bit up the coast from Perth. Roughly it's about
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Speaker 1: fifteen hundred kilometers north. It's a it's a decent road
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Speaker 1: trip if you're haading that way. Fifteen hundred kilometers. Oh
5:27
Speaker 1: my god, that's.
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Speaker 2: Good to know. Now I've got that answer. Hopefully I
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Speaker 2: won't forget it.
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Speaker 1: When I was thinking seven, I was thinking seven or eight?
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Speaker 1: Fifteen hundred, I mean, that's that's further. That's further than
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Speaker 1: Sydney is from Melbourne.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, is quite big, quite like Brisbane.
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Speaker 1: From Melbourne, you've got a whole different state. Well, you're
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Speaker 1: not driving down there, are you?
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Speaker 2: No? What are you sad by.
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Speaker 1: What are the road limits or the speed limits?
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Speaker 2: Is it one hundred and ten when you're going like
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Speaker 2: rule like the highways? Yeah?
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Speaker 1: Where is I think it's the northern territory where there
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Speaker 1: are on certain roads no speed limits.
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Speaker 2: Oh that must be somewhere else limits here?
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Speaker 1: All right, Enough about the latitude, longitude, geographics and climate
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Speaker 1: of Wa specifically Caratha. We were going to talk today
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Speaker 1: or we are going to talk today about some of
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Speaker 1: the assumptions that parents make, you know, about all the
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Speaker 1: stories that they tell themselves about their parenting or the
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Speaker 1: impact good or bad, that they're going to have on
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Speaker 1: their kids. Do you think, before I start mentioning this
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Speaker 1: little list you gave me, do you think that that
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Speaker 1: parents underestimate themselves overestimate themselves? This is like a bloody
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Speaker 1: science test, isn't it under over or they're relatively accurate
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Speaker 1: if you had to go, what's the biggest group? Under
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Speaker 1: over or somewhat accurate?
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Speaker 2: Probably underestimate themselves I think more so. But it's what
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Speaker 2: I noticed. It's almost like they don't see where they
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Speaker 2: kind of take responsibility for things that aren't there as
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Speaker 2: right in terms of the child and wanting to fix them,
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Speaker 2: but then they don't take probably enough around the bits
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Speaker 2: that they can control, which is more around themselves and
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Speaker 2: being able to kind of look inward. Right, So I
7:28
Speaker 2: feel like in that way they're kind of torn. It's
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Speaker 2: almost like they're trying to heal through their child and
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Speaker 2: not so much aside.
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Speaker 1: Do you think the parents understand the impact that they
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Speaker 1: have on their kids? I'm talking about away from you know,
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Speaker 1: instructing and correcting and teaching and managing and feeding and
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Speaker 1: all the kind of parenting stuff, but the non parenting
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Speaker 1: stuff when they're just a way being them, but the
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Speaker 1: kids in proximity, the impact that that observed stuff has,
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Speaker 1: like the way that they talk to each other, the parents,
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Speaker 1: or the way that they deal with problems, or does
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Speaker 1: that have as much of an impact on the actual
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Speaker 1: directed towards the kid's stuff or more or less or yeah.
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Speaker 2: But on conscious level, right. So, I think even just
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Speaker 2: that statement in itself, a lot of parents feel shame
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Speaker 2: about that, and they feel like they need to then
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Speaker 2: have all these kind of perfect responses and perfect ways
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Speaker 2: of behaving. But even that is a conditioning in itself.
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Speaker 2: If you could imagine if a child has always seen
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Speaker 2: parents responding perfectly and everything is just put together. Their
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Speaker 2: parents never struggled. Then they end up having very human
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Speaker 2: feelings where they are struggling and things aren't perfect, and
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Speaker 2: they're like, ooh, there's something wrong with me because my
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Speaker 2: mum with a whole lot more and she's somehow coped
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Speaker 2: and I'm not coping and I have less Like that's
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Speaker 2: what they internalize. So I don't think it's not a
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Speaker 2: case of is it a you kind of like is
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Speaker 2: it good or is it bad? It's like everyone is
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Speaker 2: being conditioned in some way. This is their first examples
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Speaker 2: of how us as humans respond to challenges, how we
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Speaker 2: see ourselves, how we deal with certain emotions and conflict
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Speaker 2: and all these things, and they're just going to get
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Speaker 2: some kind of message around that. I think the power
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Speaker 2: in that is knowing we got some kind of message
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Speaker 2: in that, and as long as we're committed to this
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Speaker 2: growth oriented way of being, this is where their repair
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Speaker 2: can come. So we can kind of continued to show
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Speaker 2: them new ways of relating to each other, and that
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Speaker 2: where human and we're still figuring it out too.
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Speaker 1: Where do our expectations come from? As parents, Let's say
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Speaker 1: first time parents, we expect certain things or expect certain
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Speaker 1: outcomes or behaviors. Is it just from seeing what other
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Speaker 1: people do or say? Is it from reading books? Is
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Speaker 1: it from how we were managed or treated or not
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Speaker 1: managed or treated as kids? Like one, where did the
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Speaker 1: expectations come from? And two? What's the consequences of unrealistic expectations?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good one. I think there's obviously so
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Speaker 2: much societal expectations. But the way that we approach that
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Speaker 2: is very much, I think, from our own conditioning and
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Speaker 2: our own childhood experiences. So a lot of parents will
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Speaker 2: have a childhood where they're like, I want to pair
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Speaker 2: it differently to how my parents did it, or I
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Speaker 2: don't want to mess up my child, and the same
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Speaker 2: way that I was messed up, or I loved this
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Speaker 2: about the way that my parents dealt with it, I
10:28
Speaker 2: need to do the exact same. So they come at
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Speaker 2: it from this place of like a bit of a
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Speaker 2: rigid way of looking at it, and then life happens
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Speaker 2: and then their child is potentially different to what they imagined,
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Speaker 2: and you know, they're in this world where everything's kind
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Speaker 2: of coming at them and it doesn't turn out that way,
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Speaker 2: And yeah, it kind of like set up from the beginning.
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Speaker 2: Really they're doomed to failed with this kind of mindset
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Speaker 2: because for them, it's the expectation was always unrealistic. You know,
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Speaker 2: they could do in this perfect way, and it makes
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Speaker 2: them feel more crap about them. It obviously disconnects them
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Speaker 2: from their child because it becomes more of a performance
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Speaker 2: or their child ends up becoming a bit of a
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Speaker 2: project of like, I can do this better than my parent,
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Speaker 2: therefore you are the example of that. And when you're
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Speaker 2: doing really well, I feel good as a parent. But
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Speaker 2: when you're struggling and must be a reflection of me.
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Speaker 2: So it's almost like then they'd be really hypervigilant around
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Speaker 2: that and they kind of micro manage their child rather
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Speaker 2: than actually giving their child that space to be their
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Speaker 2: separate being and grow through challenges as kids do and
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Speaker 2: come out the other side of that and not be
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Speaker 2: a reflection of their parents.
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Speaker 1: I feel like for some parents, Newish parents, their parenting
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Speaker 1: model is whatever their parents didn't do, yeah, because they're like,
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Speaker 1: I hated my childhood, or I hated the way my
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Speaker 1: dad did this, or my mum did that, or they
11:49
Speaker 1: both did and I'm never going to put my kids
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Speaker 1: in a situation or an environment or a setting like that.
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Speaker 1: So it's almost like is driven by this negative kind
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Speaker 1: of I guess perspective rather than a positive one, like
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Speaker 1: where whatever they did, I'm not going to do that.
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Speaker 1: We're going to make sure that this household is this
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Speaker 1: not that. Yeah, I guess that's not a whether or
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Speaker 1: not that's good or bad. I would guess is dependent
12:20
Speaker 1: on what because there are some childhoods and some environments
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Speaker 1: where I go, fuck, I think that's a good idea
12:26
Speaker 1: because your childhood was pretty shit. Yeah.
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Speaker 2: See, it's tricky, isn't it, because it's always going to
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Speaker 2: be a messy process. So for example, let's just say
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Speaker 2: a child had grown up in a household where someone
12:37
Speaker 2: was really angry and they felt like they had to
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Speaker 2: walk on eggshells. Their parents were yelling and screaming, and
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Speaker 2: for them, anger is a trigger right, and so they're like, Okay,
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Speaker 2: I am not going to be that parent. And when
12:48
Speaker 2: they come at it from this fear based way, they
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Speaker 2: will experience anger and they will go into shame. They
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Speaker 2: will ignore their anger. They will go my parent was
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Speaker 2: so angry. I'm not going to be an angry person
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Speaker 2: at all. And what they're get to is what's driving
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Speaker 2: that anger, which is his unmet needs. And so again
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Speaker 2: performance they kind of like pretend to be okay, they'll
13:05
Speaker 2: explode and then they'll have shame and they'll be like
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Speaker 2: I'm doing one my parents did, and they'll just get
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Speaker 2: in a hole that's been disconnected from their child. Right,
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Speaker 2: But if you could imagine if they approach it in
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Speaker 2: a way of I know what it feels like to
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Speaker 2: walk on eggshells, and I know what it feels like
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Speaker 2: to then you know, to kind of manage my parent
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Speaker 2: that was angry and I was really disconnected from my
13:22
Speaker 2: own needs because I was constantly hypervigilant around taking care
13:26
Speaker 2: of their needs. So what I need now is to
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Speaker 2: process my own anger and my feelings and my needs.
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Speaker 2: And part of that's going to be messy, because I'm
13:34
Speaker 2: going to behave in ways that I'm not proud of.
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Speaker 2: But what I'm going to do is I'm going to
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Speaker 2: repair with myself and use that to learn about myself,
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Speaker 2: and then I'm going to learn how to repair with
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Speaker 2: my child around that. Yep.
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Speaker 1: Wow. I listened to a lady the other day talking
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Speaker 1: and the as best I can remember it, she's like
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Speaker 1: she said something like from when I was about thirteen
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Speaker 1: to about twenty, I pretty much hated my mum because
13:57
Speaker 1: she just got in the way of all the stuff
13:59
Speaker 1: that I wanted to do, and we had a not
14:04
Speaker 1: great I think her mum was fine, by the way.
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Speaker 1: I think that, you know, she was the kid was
14:08
Speaker 1: a bit of a rebel. Or the lady that was
14:09
Speaker 1: talking was a bit of a rebel and a bit
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Speaker 1: out there, and you know, all the teenage angst stuff,
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Speaker 1: I'm sure. And then and then the bloke who was
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Speaker 1: talking to her or the interviewer, said, so what changed?
14:22
Speaker 1: She goes, I had a kid. She I had a kid,
14:26
Speaker 1: And then I kind of realized my mom was a
14:28
Speaker 1: genius and my mom was, you know. And as her
14:31
Speaker 1: kid grew, their relationship grew, and she goes, now, my
14:36
Speaker 1: mom's my favorite person. Because I didn't understand because I
14:43
Speaker 1: had no experience as a parent or raising a child.
14:46
Speaker 1: I was just the one, you know where I realized, now,
14:51
Speaker 1: how great they're you know. And they weren't the perfect
14:54
Speaker 1: parent and they didn't do everything right. But I realized
14:56
Speaker 1: what she was trying to do, and I realized it
14:59
Speaker 1: was coming from love. But I was so selfish and
15:04
Speaker 1: I was so angry because I couldn't do some of
15:07
Speaker 1: the things I wanted to do. So, you know, maybe
15:10
Speaker 1: that's part of it too, is when you can actually
15:13
Speaker 1: identify with one of your parents or empathize even that's
15:18
Speaker 1: perhaps going to change the way you frame or see
15:23
Speaker 1: parenting as well.
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Speaker 2: Definitely that empathy because you're able to separate it and going, Okay,
15:28
Speaker 2: I can see you as I'm taking off the pedestal, right,
15:32
Speaker 2: and yep, okay, I get that even being an adult, right,
15:35
Speaker 2: we're still learning, we're still unlearning, and yes, you did
15:38
Speaker 2: the best you could. Yes it's impacted me, and I'm
15:40
Speaker 2: working on that as an adult. But yes, you can
15:42
Speaker 2: have empathy. And I think when we can do that
15:44
Speaker 2: with the previous generation, it actually helps us also do
15:47
Speaker 2: that with the next generation too, because we're like, oh,
15:49
Speaker 2: I remember what it's like to be a child, and
15:51
Speaker 2: you know, only seeing your perspective well being a teenager
15:53
Speaker 2: and wanting to push back on rules and all those
15:56
Speaker 2: things like that. So again you can like depersonalize yourself
15:59
Speaker 2: from that too.
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Speaker 1: I think that depersonalizing and kind of almost disengaging in
16:05
Speaker 1: a good way for a moment, from seeing your mama's dad,
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Speaker 1: your mum and dad as your mum and dad, your parents,
16:14
Speaker 1: the dictators, the whatever. And I remember it took me
16:17
Speaker 1: a while, but it probably wasn't until I was about
16:22
Speaker 1: late twenties thirty where I tried to get a real
16:28
Speaker 1: insight and understanding into my mum and dad. And what
16:31
Speaker 1: I did back, what I did was I went and
16:33
Speaker 1: spoke to some of their family members, and I spoke
16:36
Speaker 1: to them more deeply, and I asked, I was trying
16:39
Speaker 1: to get an understanding of my dad as a kid
16:42
Speaker 1: and my mum as a kid, and like, compared to
16:47
Speaker 1: and I've said this before on the show, but compared
16:49
Speaker 1: to my mom and dad, my childhood was like a
16:53
Speaker 1: bloody Disney movie, right, And we were not by any
16:57
Speaker 1: means rich, and we were very i would say, lower
16:59
Speaker 1: me or class. They both worked, and you know, all
17:04
Speaker 1: of that normal stuff. I wasn't really lacking for anything
17:08
Speaker 1: on a practical level at all. But when I thought
17:11
Speaker 1: about my dad being one of six boys, eight people
17:15
Speaker 1: in the family, one income, being raised in the Second
17:17
Speaker 1: World War, you know, he spent the first year six
17:21
Speaker 1: years of his life in the middle of a world
17:24
Speaker 1: literally at war, and all the concerts and their very
17:28
Speaker 1: formative years, right, and there was you know, there wasn't
17:31
Speaker 1: a whole lot of hugging and loving, and you know,
17:35
Speaker 1: like everyone was just trying to survive, including his mom
17:39
Speaker 1: and his dad. And then my mom, her mom died
17:41
Speaker 1: giving birth to her, so my mom didn't even have
17:44
Speaker 1: a mom, and she was raised by her grandma and
17:48
Speaker 1: nuns because she got sent to boarding school at four
17:52
Speaker 1: and all of these things. And then when I kind
17:55
Speaker 1: of tried to just see them as children and babies
17:58
Speaker 1: and toddlers and young people trying to figure out life,
18:03
Speaker 1: and then I would reflect on the way that they
18:06
Speaker 1: parented me, which I would sometimes be back then critical of,
18:11
Speaker 1: by the way, nothing really to be critical of, but
18:15
Speaker 1: I would compare that to what they grew up in.
18:18
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, my parents considering what they had to
18:22
Speaker 1: learn from, what their influence was in terms of parenting,
18:27
Speaker 1: they were bloody parents of the year, parents of the decade,
18:31
Speaker 1: you know. And so for me, that awareness of actually
18:36
Speaker 1: trying to have empathy and understanding for my parents in
18:39
Speaker 1: that way around that particular issue, I realized that I
18:45
Speaker 1: was the problem, you know, which is not say they
18:48
Speaker 1: were perfect parents, and I was a terrible kid. But
18:51
Speaker 1: it was to say that the moment that I saw
18:54
Speaker 1: them as just human beings growing up in a certain
18:56
Speaker 1: place at a certain time, living in a certain reality,
19:00
Speaker 1: navigating certain issues and problems and logistics and danger and
19:05
Speaker 1: all of the stuff they had to deal with, it
19:08
Speaker 1: made me. It reframed everything. Without me trying to reframe it,
19:13
Speaker 1: I just went, oh, yeah, yeah, I need to be
19:16
Speaker 1: much more gentle, I need to be much more grateful,
19:20
Speaker 1: because like in this I'm the problem because I have
19:24
Speaker 1: no real awareness. And then when I got some awareness,
19:30
Speaker 1: totally changed by thinking.
19:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, I completely relate to that. I think often, you know,
19:37
Speaker 2: going through like you're obviously really aware, and you know,
19:39
Speaker 2: going into industries like this, right, we learn about the
19:42
Speaker 2: right way to do things in the wrong way and
19:44
Speaker 2: this is what the research says, and you can be
19:45
Speaker 2: really like rigid in the way that you look at things.
19:48
Speaker 2: And I think the more flexibility that we get kind
19:50
Speaker 2: of psychologically we realize, you know, human life is so
19:53
Speaker 2: much more nuanced. And I like what you said there
19:55
Speaker 2: about you almost without looking at the inner child. I
19:58
Speaker 2: think the way that I work with parents completely transformed
20:02
Speaker 2: when I stopped seeing them as this is this like
20:04
Speaker 2: child and you're the parent and this you know you're
20:07
Speaker 2: responsible for them and you kind of just need to
20:09
Speaker 2: save them, And why aren't you doing these things rather
20:11
Speaker 2: than going can we see you as a child too?
20:14
Speaker 2: Write what were your experiences as child? In a child stuff?
20:17
Speaker 2: And the more we see that, the more empathy we
20:19
Speaker 2: have of like, wow, look at who celebrates this? Right?
20:22
Speaker 2: The gap between what you've experienced and what you're giving huge, right,
20:26
Speaker 2: So many parents said to me, you know, I've literally
20:29
Speaker 2: not had my parents say I love you, and they're like,
20:31
Speaker 2: and I tell my child that every day, Like that
20:33
Speaker 2: is massive and the things that no one can see
20:36
Speaker 2: from the outside only you know that, right, So I
20:40
Speaker 2: think it's yeah, we don't give ourselves enough credit for
20:42
Speaker 2: that as well, just that gap there.
20:44
Speaker 1: What's the nuance between growing up an environment where you
20:49
Speaker 1: didn't necessarily necessarily feel super loved or seen or valued
20:55
Speaker 1: or maybe even safe. Then you become a parent and
20:59
Speaker 1: now you're hype of vigilant about every minute of the day,
21:02
Speaker 1: where's my kid? What are they doing? Are they okay?
21:04
Speaker 1: Do they have enough? This enough that? Because I guess
21:07
Speaker 1: at some point that love can become a disadvantage, or
21:11
Speaker 1: that the way that that love is expressed can become
21:13
Speaker 1: problematic if it's overwhelming. Because at the same time, you know,
21:20
Speaker 1: there needs to be consequences for stuff like we need
21:23
Speaker 1: to let the kid fall down every now and then,
21:25
Speaker 1: we need to let them experience to a point a
21:29
Speaker 1: level of discouragement and disappointment and sadness, because that's life,
21:35
Speaker 1: and we don't want to push some kid out of
21:37
Speaker 1: the nest that I tend and go right, you're going
21:40
Speaker 1: to university now where no one gives a fuck about
21:42
Speaker 1: you or your feelings. Nobody's going to molly coddle you.
21:46
Speaker 1: You're not going to I'm not going to be there,
21:48
Speaker 1: or you're going to get a job. You're now a
21:50
Speaker 1: bricky or you're now electrician, or you're now on the
21:53
Speaker 1: path to become a neurosurgeon or an astronaut or whatever
21:56
Speaker 1: it is. There's like this, it's real juxtaposition I think
22:01
Speaker 1: between loving them, treating them, you know, like the precious
22:06
Speaker 1: treasures they are, but also preparing them for the bullshit
22:10
Speaker 1: that lives outside the house.
22:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, that question was really loaded. I think, you know,
22:16
Speaker 2: when I go back to say the experience of child
22:18
Speaker 2: therapy right. The idea behind us providing this container where
22:23
Speaker 2: we are seeing a child, validating a child's feelings. Right.
22:27
Speaker 2: The ultimate purpose of that though, is giving them this
22:30
Speaker 2: experience where then they can have that for themselves.
22:33
Speaker 1: Right.
22:33
Speaker 2: So they in a self talk kind of mimix that stuff.
22:36
Speaker 2: But I think what happens when you approach it from
22:38
Speaker 2: a fear based way, which is what a lot of
22:40
Speaker 2: parents do. They're like, I need to be the one
22:42
Speaker 2: to validate them all the time. I need to always
22:44
Speaker 2: understand them, I need to always see them. And when
22:47
Speaker 2: they don't, they're like, I've missed the mark, rather than
22:49
Speaker 2: they're not looking at the long term objective, which is
22:52
Speaker 2: we need to create, of course, experiences where we can
22:55
Speaker 2: validate the child's feelings and they can see them. But
22:58
Speaker 2: ultimately that's supposed to lead back to a self trust. Yes,
23:02
Speaker 2: and so when we again do it from a fear base,
23:04
Speaker 2: which trying to do it twenty four seven, and then I,
23:06
Speaker 2: like you said, that's not really helpful in life, but
23:09
Speaker 2: it should be more intentional with it, and we can
23:12
Speaker 2: realize how potent this is, and we can just create
23:15
Speaker 2: containers for it. Then we give ourselves the child with
23:18
Speaker 2: the chance to then tap into their own internal you
23:22
Speaker 2: know mechanism there, you know, their own internal self talk,
23:25
Speaker 2: and that's where we give them space to kind of
23:26
Speaker 2: figure this out by themselves, and that's really helpful.
23:29
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I want to tell you a story. I
23:33
Speaker 1: don't necessarily have a question at the end of it.
23:36
Speaker 1: I just want to share the story with you and
23:38
Speaker 1: then hear your thoughts on it. So before you were born,
23:43
Speaker 1: young lady, so I used to trying a lady. I
23:46
Speaker 1: started working in gyms in eighty two.
23:49
Speaker 2: Yeah.
23:49
Speaker 1: I started personal training, so a lot of one on
23:52
Speaker 1: one stuff around eighty six eighty seven. So in the
23:56
Speaker 1: late eighties and early nineties I trained this lady and
24:03
Speaker 1: quite a wealthy, attractive, nice lady who had massive eating issues,
24:13
Speaker 1: self worth issues, and very much got her sense of
24:18
Speaker 1: self and self worth from how she looked. Right. By
24:24
Speaker 1: the way, there's no criticism in this. This is just
24:26
Speaker 1: the facts, your honor, as did I for many years
24:29
Speaker 1: because I was wildly insecure and I thought my body
24:32
Speaker 1: was who I was, and I looked for approval and
24:35
Speaker 1: all that shit. Anyway, she was kind of the same.
24:39
Speaker 1: It kind of progressed where she became very neurotic about
24:43
Speaker 1: food and her appearance, and you know, without going to
24:48
Speaker 1: quite a lot of stuff around that, so lots of
24:52
Speaker 1: body dysmorphia, I'm fat, I'm ugly, all the things she
24:56
Speaker 1: wasn't And you know, anyway about I guess ten years
25:02
Speaker 1: down the track, I started training her daughter, who had
25:08
Speaker 1: never met her daughter was twenty one ish. She came in.
25:13
Speaker 1: She was basically a cookie cutter, emotionally, dysfunctionally physically everything,
25:22
Speaker 1: So her eating disorders, her body dysmorphia. It's almost like
25:27
Speaker 1: it had just been handed down to the daughter, and
25:32
Speaker 1: so she was just a younger version with just the
25:36
Speaker 1: same issues as her mom. It gets better. Then down
25:41
Speaker 1: the track I got introduced. I didn't train it, but
25:44
Speaker 1: I get introduced to the granddaughter who so I trained
25:48
Speaker 1: members of that family for twenty five years, and the
25:53
Speaker 1: granddaughter was just like the mum and the grandmom and
25:56
Speaker 1: full on. You know, everything was manicured, everything was touched up, everything,
26:01
Speaker 1: everything was about appearance, to the point where you know,
26:07
Speaker 1: their emotional state revolved around feedback that they would get
26:11
Speaker 1: and how they looked or how they thought they looked.
26:14
Speaker 1: And I'm just interested in your take. It's almost like
26:19
Speaker 1: and of course this could happen with guys where boys
26:22
Speaker 1: just want to be a version of their dad, or
26:25
Speaker 1: but that intergenerational emotional and psychological and sociological kind of stuff,
26:32
Speaker 1: that tricky stuff that seems to get this is probably
26:35
Speaker 1: the wrong word, but it seems to get passed on
26:38
Speaker 1: to the next generation. Because the daughter grew up around
26:43
Speaker 1: the mum and seeing the mum do all these things,
26:46
Speaker 1: that's kind of oh, that's that's how you do it.
26:49
Speaker 1: That's how you do life, or that's how you do food,
26:51
Speaker 1: or that's how you do you know, manage your body,
26:54
Speaker 1: or that's how you do exercise, or you know. And
26:57
Speaker 1: then the granddaughter followed suit, I'm like, oh, this is
27:00
Speaker 1: this is an intergenerational nightmare.
27:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is tricky, hey, because it's almost like
27:06
Speaker 2: that nature versus nature. Yeah, document and what we know
27:09
Speaker 2: is like both matter. And you could imagine so I'm
27:12
Speaker 2: not sure you know how conscious that parent was around this,
27:15
Speaker 2: but you could imagine for a parent who is aware
27:16
Speaker 2: of their issues, imagine having a child that is struggling
27:20
Speaker 2: with the same thing. It can actually listen a lot
27:21
Speaker 2: of shame, and then they become very mechanical in how
27:24
Speaker 2: they approach it. They might try and hide it. They
27:27
Speaker 2: might try and be perfect around their child, but then
27:29
Speaker 2: actually struggle. It becomes a performance or again really shame based.
27:33
Speaker 2: It's almost like I can see that it's impacting you.
27:36
Speaker 2: I need to fix this, yes, And so then the
27:38
Speaker 2: child might actually hide, for example, anxiety rather than actually
27:42
Speaker 2: have processed it. So it's almost like the more that
27:47
Speaker 2: we look at our relationship with it, that's probably more important.
27:51
Speaker 2: So it's not how it looks on the outside with
27:52
Speaker 2: the behaviors, it's more how we feel about that. And
27:55
Speaker 2: that's always that balance between that compassion for the struggles
27:57
Speaker 2: that we're facing, but also that accountability to make some changes,
28:00
Speaker 2: you know, what's required for that future self of bars.
28:03
Speaker 2: So being able to model that nuance of going I'm
28:07
Speaker 2: I'm really struggling with this. This is actually a thing
28:09
Speaker 2: for me. You're right in what you see, but I'm
28:12
Speaker 2: learning how to be kind about it. But I'm also
28:14
Speaker 2: trying to hold myself account of bit to make changes.
28:17
Speaker 2: And I think if we can model that nuance for kids,
28:21
Speaker 2: it gives them a chance to tap into that not
28:23
Speaker 2: like oh, she's pretending that that's not a thing for
28:25
Speaker 2: her and it's a mere problem or she you know,
28:28
Speaker 2: she's seeing every time I do it it's triggering her stuff,
28:30
Speaker 2: but kind of not saying that, it's just being really honest,
28:33
Speaker 2: like this is my journey and I struggle with this too,
28:35
Speaker 2: so it must be pretty hard for you, but kind
28:39
Speaker 2: of giving them the space also to figure out.
28:42
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yeah, I feel like in all our relationships,
28:46
Speaker 1: you know, whether it's not it's with our partner or
28:49
Speaker 1: our colleagues at work, or our boss or employees, or
28:52
Speaker 1: our kids or our whoever, it is like we bring
28:56
Speaker 1: our own bullshit. Yeah, you know stuff when we we
29:00
Speaker 1: it goes everywhere with us. It's like, you know, I've
29:04
Speaker 1: been doing this for a very long time and all
29:06
Speaker 1: the stuff I do, and you know, I still have stuff,
29:11
Speaker 1: I still have issues. I still like when I wherever
29:14
Speaker 1: I go, there's my insecurity wherever I you know, not
29:17
Speaker 1: that it's necessarily visible or on display, but but is
29:21
Speaker 1: there still insecurity that lives in me? Yes? Is there?
29:24
Speaker 1: You know, feelings of imposter syndrome seems to be a
29:28
Speaker 1: situation or context dependent, but all of the human stuff,
29:33
Speaker 1: you know, we take it with us. And I think
29:37
Speaker 1: you know, one of those you know, those fancy terms
29:41
Speaker 1: that we use in psychology theory of mind, you know,
29:44
Speaker 1: trying to understand that that person without transferring your thinking
29:51
Speaker 1: and your assumptions. Oh well, I think like this, so
29:54
Speaker 1: she will think like that, or he this is what
29:57
Speaker 1: it means to me, So I don't mean that to them.
30:01
Speaker 1: But rather than that, you know, kind of very automatic
30:05
Speaker 1: human thing is being aware of that other thing called
30:10
Speaker 1: the false consensus effect, where we realize, well, of a sudden,
30:13
Speaker 1: we realize most people don't think like me, and my
30:18
Speaker 1: kid is not me, probably quite similar genetically and experientially,
30:23
Speaker 1: and all the programming that he or she grew up in.
30:25
Speaker 1: But realizing they don't have my brain, they don't have
30:28
Speaker 1: my mind, they don't have my experiences, and how do
30:34
Speaker 1: I bring a greater situational awareness and a greater understanding
30:40
Speaker 1: of their version of what is going on, not my version.
30:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're wanting to arrive at right. That's a problem
30:48
Speaker 2: because we're looking at it from a certain way and
30:50
Speaker 2: where like I see it like I'm step ten and
30:54
Speaker 2: child's at step one, and you're like, no, let's just
30:55
Speaker 2: see it from our point of view. This is where
30:57
Speaker 2: it leads to. But then you're not sitting and helping
30:59
Speaker 2: develop that thinking, right, which is sad, going from where
31:02
Speaker 2: they are and trying to understand their thought process around
31:05
Speaker 2: that and asking the questions and getting them to reflect
31:08
Speaker 2: on why they saw it in that way and what
31:10
Speaker 2: made them think that, and you know, again allowing for
31:12
Speaker 2: that and almost like accepting that that's where they're at,
31:14
Speaker 2: rather than going you've got it wrong.
31:16
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. One of my friends has got two kids
31:19
Speaker 1: and two boys, and one of the boys is a
31:22
Speaker 1: complete fucking risk taker maniac, like like just high energy,
31:30
Speaker 1: you know, gorgeous, but just like a handful. Yeah. The
31:36
Speaker 1: other ones, like a Buddhist monk, just wants to read books,
31:42
Speaker 1: like introvert, yeah, quite calm, quite content, doesn't want to
31:46
Speaker 1: be out climbing a thousand trees, racing bikes, you know,
31:50
Speaker 1: discovering the world. Doesn't want that. And the same kids
31:53
Speaker 1: in the same environment, with the same parents, same influences,
31:56
Speaker 1: same gene pool. That these he said, if they weren't
32:01
Speaker 1: my kids and I met them, I would not believe
32:04
Speaker 1: if somebody told me their brothers because they have nothing
32:08
Speaker 1: in common. You know, like, that's so crazy that that happens.
32:13
Speaker 2: Yeap, it really is. And then it's like how the
32:16
Speaker 2: parents experience both those kids too, right, because in some
32:19
Speaker 2: ways parents can have a child where they're like, oh,
32:21
Speaker 2: I used to be like that when I was younger,
32:23
Speaker 2: and it can actually help with empathy. But then in
32:25
Speaker 2: the flip side, it can also the over identification, right, like, oh, no,
32:30
Speaker 2: you're like me, so this is what you need. You know.
32:33
Speaker 2: It's interesting how that experience as well, yeah, comes out.
32:39
Speaker 1: And it's funny because allegedly your honor. So inside the home,
32:44
Speaker 1: the younger the older one who's a maniac, and the
32:47
Speaker 1: younger one who's a you know, a budding rabbi or
32:51
Speaker 1: buddhistmanc or philosopher or whatever, the older one kind of
32:57
Speaker 1: treats him like shit, just like a big brother, right,
33:01
Speaker 1: or some big brothers. But when they're out and about
33:04
Speaker 1: and somebody would pick on the little one, the big
33:08
Speaker 1: one like goes and punches them in the face.
33:12
Speaker 2: You know, if they don't speak to their sibling like that, right,
33:15
Speaker 2: it's like how dare you speak to them?
33:17
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, like this this protector of his little brother.
33:20
Speaker 1: But at home it's yeah, I mean, as much as
33:27
Speaker 1: we wax and wane and philosophize and theorize and come
33:29
Speaker 1: up with models of behavior and models of parenting and teaching.
33:34
Speaker 1: I think in the real world, whether or not it's parenting,
33:37
Speaker 1: or whether or not it's anything, you know, building a business,
33:40
Speaker 1: doing a degree, managing your own health, Like, there's got
33:45
Speaker 1: to be a little bit of trial and error because
33:47
Speaker 1: there's no one protocol that's just universally effective.
33:51
Speaker 2: Right. Oh, it's all trial and error when you think
33:53
Speaker 2: about it. And that's why I really love the pragmatic approach.
33:56
Speaker 2: I think that always just underlies what I do, which
33:58
Speaker 2: is what works on about the perfect theory or the
34:01
Speaker 2: perfect way, it's like what actually works in real life.
34:03
Speaker 2: And I always go back to that because that changes
34:06
Speaker 2: from like day to day, hour and hour even And
34:09
Speaker 2: I think if we approach life in that way, like
34:11
Speaker 2: the experimental kind of researcher, you know, we just get
34:14
Speaker 2: curious about what's happening, and we're willing to try different
34:17
Speaker 2: things and be open minded and realize it's not one
34:20
Speaker 2: way perfectly things.
34:22
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was sitting at cafe the
34:28
Speaker 1: other day and this little girl who must be four,
34:32
Speaker 1: and I see her a bit. She's in there with
34:34
Speaker 1: her mum, and I don't know her name. I don't
34:38
Speaker 1: know the mum's name, but she's you know, she's a
34:40
Speaker 1: little energizer bunny. She runs around the joint and she
34:45
Speaker 1: had an ice cream. So she walks up to me
34:49
Speaker 1: and holds up the ice cream to me to ask
34:53
Speaker 1: me if I want to lick. Right, clearly, I'm not
34:55
Speaker 1: going to. You know what was weird was part of
35:00
Speaker 1: me is like, oh, that's the most gorgeous thing ever.
35:03
Speaker 1: Of course I'm not going to lick her ice cream
35:05
Speaker 1: because one, I don't want her and to that would
35:07
Speaker 1: probably freak them um out, understandably, But I was like,
35:11
Speaker 1: talk about momentary overwhelmed. I'm thinking, what do I do?
35:18
Speaker 1: What does the old dude in the corner, How does
35:22
Speaker 1: he respond to this in a way where everyone will
35:27
Speaker 1: be all right with it? Because you get you get
35:30
Speaker 1: so worried that someone's going to think something or see
35:33
Speaker 1: or say something, especially if you're an older dude. Yeah,
35:38
Speaker 1: So all I did was I said, oh, that's very
35:42
Speaker 1: nice to you, but I've got to go eat my
35:45
Speaker 1: breakfast soon, so thank you, but you enjoy the ice cream.
35:48
Speaker 1: And by then the mum was recalling and she's rolling
35:51
Speaker 1: her eyes and she's kind of waved to me, and
35:53
Speaker 1: she goes, sorry, I go, that's the cutest thing ever.
35:55
Speaker 1: Don't apologize. I just yeah, it's just like knowing, you know,
36:02
Speaker 1: how to navigate, because it's it's quite different now, you know.
36:05
Speaker 2: It's like I did really well though, especially like that.
36:08
Speaker 2: You know, I've to have my breakfast so I can't,
36:09
Speaker 2: you know. And she probably was.
36:12
Speaker 1: Like, how do I be a nice person? How do
36:15
Speaker 1: I interact with her in a friendly way and not
36:19
Speaker 1: send her off crying because I declined her request or
36:23
Speaker 1: whatever it was. But that's all right, let's finish with this.
36:30
Speaker 1: I want one question from you that all parents should
36:36
Speaker 1: or could ask themselves that might about parenting, which might
36:43
Speaker 1: be might be helpful, might lead to some kind of
36:46
Speaker 1: insight or change or shift either in you or the
36:49
Speaker 1: child or both of the dynamics. But it's like if
36:53
Speaker 1: somebody came to me and said, what are three great
36:55
Speaker 1: questions I could ask myself about getting in shape? You know,
36:59
Speaker 1: I could come up, it's ten, I go, or here's three,
37:02
Speaker 1: or how do I you know? What are three great
37:06
Speaker 1: questions I could ask myself about, you know, changing habits
37:10
Speaker 1: and behaviors and outcomes and all of that. So is
37:13
Speaker 1: there one really good question, which you think is broadly
37:16
Speaker 1: relevant and helpful that any parent could ask themselves about
37:21
Speaker 1: the way that they parent.
37:24
Speaker 2: Yep, I think it's a question that is very useful.
37:28
Speaker 2: Is how am I seeing this? Yeap? What is my interpretation?
37:32
Speaker 2: What is that belief driving that?
37:33
Speaker 1: So?
37:33
Speaker 2: I think that how am I seeing this? Right? Is
37:37
Speaker 2: very useful because it takes away the objective Okay, this happened,
37:40
Speaker 2: But what's the story I'm telling right about the situation
37:44
Speaker 2: and about what it means for me or my child?
37:46
Speaker 2: So probably the story. Actually I'm going to change my
37:48
Speaker 2: answer as I'm talking. It's what story am I saying
37:52
Speaker 2: right behind this?
37:54
Speaker 1: Yes? Yeah? And would part B B Part B B?
37:59
Speaker 1: Would part be the question be what's the reality? What's
38:04
Speaker 1: the truth or what's the objective reality behind my story?
38:09
Speaker 2: Yes? Yeah? What's another interpretation?
38:12
Speaker 1: Right?
38:12
Speaker 2: That is, like you said, more objective, more realistic, more
38:16
Speaker 2: maybe even generous, right, because we can all are a
38:19
Speaker 2: lot of our assumptions initially, or our stories are very
38:22
Speaker 2: fear based or critical. So I think, yeah, what's another
38:26
Speaker 2: way of looking at this?
38:28
Speaker 1: I reckon my very uneducated observational kind of thought is
38:33
Speaker 1: that parents are quite critical of themselves, And ironically, I
38:40
Speaker 1: think it's the better parents that are more critical because
38:43
Speaker 1: they care and they really want to do a good job.
38:47
Speaker 1: Not always the better ones, but yeah, that kind of
38:51
Speaker 1: you know that where they really want to do such
38:54
Speaker 1: a good job that they're always finding fault in themselves.
38:58
Speaker 2: Yep, So it almost like it then it's just driven
39:03
Speaker 2: again by the fear, which is like, Okay, I must
39:05
Speaker 2: be doing something wrong, rather than being able to see
39:07
Speaker 2: all the things that they're doing right and building upon that.
39:09
Speaker 1: Now, it's no surprise when I tell you, doctor Sam
39:12
Speaker 1: that those six dot points that you sent me that
39:14
Speaker 1: we would talk about, we didn't talk about any but
39:17
Speaker 1: we kind of talked about all of them globally. Tell
39:21
Speaker 1: people where to connect with you and find.
39:23
Speaker 2: You on Instagram at dr Sam Casey or on my
39:27
Speaker 2: website at dot Samcasey dot com.
39:30
Speaker 1: You're the best. We'll say goodbye here, but thank you
39:33
Speaker 1: and enjoy the sweltering heat. I will