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What You Focus On Grows: The Secret to Grateful Living · Imagine The Good

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Imagine the Good Podcast.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: Have you ever watched something or heard an idea that makes you want to tell everyone because it ignites hope and inspiration for their beauty and goodness, and you want to expand it in the world?
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's the catalyst of this podcast.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: Having conversations with inspiring people, elevating goodness, and reimagining what we can do together.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Robin Murray, and I'm here with my husband and co-host, Jason Dorman.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: Join us as we explore ideas, stories, and conversations that invite us to live with greater purpose, compassion, courage, and connection.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: Today, we're joined by someone who is living that invitation and we'll explore what their story might mean for the way we live, work, and relate to one another.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: Let's get started.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: Today we'll be talking about gratitude and gratefulness.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: We just finished celebrating Canadian Thanksgiving, so it feels fitting for the week to explore this one.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: And Thanksgiving for me, anyway.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um I can't think of Thanksgiving.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, the things you're supposed to be grateful for, but it always elicits child memories and Thanksgiving growing up and dinners around the table and and what mom and dad did around that time.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: What I used to love about it was that it was our first four-day weekend in terms of holiday away from away from school.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: The school that I went to as a kid, we had classes on Saturdays.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: So to have a four-day weekend come up, first one of the year, was uh sort of a nice reprieve.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I looked forward to that.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, the idea of Thanksgiving, it's always a big meal.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: Family came over.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: So there's warm and fuzzy memories there for sure.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: Lots of football.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: So it was good.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: It was good.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: I love the spirit of Thanksgiving, and it always feels like it comes, it sneaks up quickly in terms of fall.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh just being able to fully embrace the celebration of the bounty that supports our lives and gathering with people.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh somehow I feel like I always want to expand it uh when it arrives.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: So it feels like that has deepened as I've grown older.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: I I enjoyed the wonderful meal and family gathering as a child, but the intention behind it to really celebrate and appreciate uh the bounty of life and and to feel gratitude and have an orientation of thankfulness uh has deepened with the years.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for me, those that connection didn't those wires didn't line up until in my 30s, anyway.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: I just it was a weekend, big meal, and I just wasn't there.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: I just that just wasn't part of my world.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: The idea of what it what is what does it represent, what's it about who are we being grateful for, and just the reminder of even the history of it, right?
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: The harvest, why ours, I mean it became I don't think it became a national holiday uh until I used to know this, but I'm gonna say 18 something, when the federal government eventually made it a a national holiday and and named the second second Sunday in every October.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: But lately, you know, more recently, the the the holiday has more significance because as you get older, we just uh I just think the passage of time, our awareness shifts, we just experience life differently.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: Thank goodness, but differently.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: When I think of uh uh gratitude as as a child what comes up is memories of just the scent of trees, uh running on a cushy trail through the woods, feeling that the earth receiving my feet as a kid and and enjoying that sensation.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the plunge in the community pool uh and uh the refreshment of the heat in in summer, um mom's yummy desserts or or dinners.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um so there's a real sensory element that comes into play for me with um the childhood experience of feeling gratitude and and feeling uh appreciative of what is.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so those are my earlier the excitement of Christmas and so um receiving as well as just uh being outside.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say uh that theme has just been a constant in my life.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the I feel a deepening of gratitude.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: And and I'd say that uh for me, gratitude and a sense of uh gratefulness is is a uh a marker for how I'm doing because it's part of a natural state of presence.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: And if I'm not feeling appreciative or grateful, then usually it's a sign that uh something's up, that something's bothering me and that it needs more attention to work through in order to rec reconnect with that natural state of appreciation.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, those the visceral piece, it's what I always find interesting is our daughter Matea, as a young child, she used to use the word cozy a lot, how much she appreciated the idea of cozy and that rain elicited feelings of of being cozy, winter, snowfalls, all that kind of stuff.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think cozy, I don't think I knew what the hell it meant until I was an adult anyway, because I just never used the word.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: I never thought of it as I never thought of the living room and a fire as being cozy.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: And again, back to, and this is such a guy thing to say, but back to my my visceral experience of Thanksgiving of the fall.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I hate to say it, but it's the smell of football games.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: It is grass stains and the sweat.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: And there was just, I know as a young kid before I started playing football, we would go out onto a squad, which was on the campus, and there'd be the first team would be playing, and you could smell the game because there was such an autumn smell to the air.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: And and again, just the the smell of football.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: And it wasn't gross and sweaty and all that sort of stuff.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: It just had an an out an outdoor strong smell to it.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: And and I remember that as a kid.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_02: And and then the excitement of growing, you know, getting a little older and being able to play.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_02: But I that's my that's the extent of my visceral.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, sure, I can remember the smell of the bird and grandma's squash and pumpkin pies and all that kind of stuff, but but the true meaning of it, like as I said before, it just didn't kick in until I was much older.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I dare to say less focused.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: I had retired from rowing.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so my world wasn't there wasn't one focus to my life.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: I was able to step back and appreciate other things.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_02: And and that really didn't, those pennies didn't start dropping really till I was well into my 30s, I'm gonna guess.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: Which, you know, I mean, it's just the way it was.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not it's kind of a drag, but it's I'm not gonna I'm not gonna say it wasn't different, but that's just the way the way it went.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: And as a child, you you appreciated athletics, you loved sports, it was fun.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was a natural place where you um were thankful for what you got to do with with Matea.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: Her love of creature comforts and the coziness and her sense of expressing uh gratitude for that is something you notice because uh you're wired slightly different from much.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: And you in some ways of that.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I appreciate it now, but as a kid, cozy was boring.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: So I'd rather be outside, I'd rather be doing something.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: And and I just never hung around long enough to experience cozy.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_02: So but uh what I find interesting about the topic, and one of the reasons I'm glad we're talking about it, is that in so many ways, the idea of gratitude, the idea of a Thanksgiving weekend, and for the American listeners, yeah, we celebrate ours much earlier than yours, and it it's all based on geography.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: Our we're so much further north, crops are are collected or harvested much earlier, and so imagine that our Thanksgiving weekend is is much sooner.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: But what I what I love about the idea of gratitude is that especially the way I experience it now, is that it it it speaks to to the podcast, imagine the good.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_02: And and the way I look at it now is that it's it's an invitation that goes a little bit further.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not just imagining the good, it's looking for the good.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: And and why that why I find that important is because every night when we sit down for dinner, we we you know, I wouldn't call it grace, but we share what we're grateful for in the in the day or in the moment, right?
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: And what I love about that is that it's it's a chance for me to rewind and play through the film from the day, and just check in on little things that happened that day, or people I met, or who knows, and and just name it as being grateful for it.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: Invariably there are consistent pieces.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: There's you, there's Matea, there's our home, our gardens where we live, our health, what we do for a living.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, all those things, super grateful for.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: But invariably there's something new each day.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: Where the food came from, especially if we're eating stuff from the gardens, yeah, that's a cool moment.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: But what I what I love about Imagine the Good, and and perhaps one more step further, look for the good, is the idea of the one headlight phenomenon.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: And as I said to you earlier, I don't know that even know that it's a phenomenon anymore because everybody's got LED lights, and I don't even know if they burn out.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: But back when we were younger, you would see cars that had a headlight out.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: And invariably, if you had a headlight out, you noticed the cars that had one out too.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so it was called the one headlight phenomenon.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think what that invites, at least what it makes me think of, is the idea that when we look for what's good, when we're hyper-aware of what's in our world, we tend to find more of it.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_02: So when our headlight was out, we noticed more of them.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: And as we said earlier, it's like that exercise.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: If you're in a room and someone says, Can you tell me, can you name everything that's brown in the room?
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_02: And you look around, you find everything that's brown, and then and then they say, Well, what was blue?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: And you can't think of what was blue because you weren't looking for anything that was blue.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the same can be true in life.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_02: When we go through life looking for what's good, we tend to find more of it.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: And the opposite of that, of course, can be true.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_02: When we, you know, we're not having a great day and we tend and we're in a in a funk.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: Perhaps that's when more of that, what's causing the funk, shows up.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: But when we can shift our state and name what's what we're grateful for, I just think it turns up uh the radar and our ability to find those things that are that are super awesome and worth being grateful for.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what I love about our practice before dinner every day is that it it's just, I mean, it only takes what 30 seconds each.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: And but it's such a really, it's for me anyhow, it's such a useful little exercise.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: And what you're referring to gets to the neuroscience behind gratitude and appreciating.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it helps shift the nervous system's negativity bias to find what could hurt uh what could hurt us.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: It balances that and changes the the inner patterns to when we find the good, we actually have a more balanced perspective of our environment.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it helps down regulate uh threat responses by connecting to goodness.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: So when we're in a state of distress, our mind doesn't automatically go to uh the good, it goes to what could go wrong or what could hurt us.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so intentionally putting our focus on gratitude and appreciation will help shift that balance.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: So having it as a habit.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's easy for people to mechanically in their head rhyme off a list of things they're grateful for for.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's very different to actually get in touch with the feeling of it in a way that we embody that.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: So when it feels like just a list in the head versus a felt sense of genuine um gratitude, then it's also an invitation to say what else is present within us.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um are we are we up in our hands in a way that leaves us disconnected from feeling um appreciation for what supports and sustains us?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: So if we think of grateful living as an orientation, as a way of attending to life that's relational and embodied, um, then there's more space to hold the goodness along with things that are challenging or difficult.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: But when we're feeling cut off from that, it's a sign that uh to turn towards ourselves to what might be difficult in the moment and to be with that with compassion and in a caring way.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um because sometimes uh gratitude can feel like a distant reach amidst uh pain or difficulty.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: And the uh the way that it can support working with difficult emotions.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: A good example for me comes to mind when when Ike uh our first dog uh died.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: I remember with my grief, I I would feel sad and have a crying jag, and then I would take my journal and write uh about what I missed about him and what I appreciated.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I allowed space for the sadness and the tears.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then with some connection to that and movement, then I felt more able to genuinely connect with what I appreciated and feel the warmth um of that welling up in my heart.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: What I appreciate about that is is the question that came up for me.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, can we make room for gratitude when life is painful or unfair without using it to silence those feelings?
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: And and and I and that's I'm assuming that would be an example of that, right?
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it's I mean, goodness, I don't think I grieved Ike as well as you did because uh because I was so I don't know, it just hurt so much.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_02: And the idea of purposefully thinking about or trying to process my emotions was too what did you call it?
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: A crying what?
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: Crying jag.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: Is that an East Coast expression?
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure.
• 16:58
  unknown: Okay.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I had a lot of those, and and I just got tired of them, and I just thought, screw it, I'm not gonna, and you know, it's probably why I still choke up as much as I do, because I didn't process it as well as you did in the weeks and months following Ike's departure.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_02: What I'm grateful about Ikea.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: I happen to be also doing a course in grief in grief counseling and relationship counseling um in grad school at the time of his death.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: So that that helped facilitate.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that was your homework, the the experience.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think, you know, when I the way I hold Ike's passing now is it was a drag to lose him at nine, but super grateful for the experience of being there with him when he left.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: And just what that was like, what it taught me, what I did write about on some days, and and the preparation it provided, and and I've mentioned this to you before, but when dad died, I just felt so much more able to be with him in his passing and to not be a bumbling, blubbering fool, but to be just calm and I don't know, encouraging is the wrong word, but to just support him in those in his moments of of leaving.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: I don't, I don't, I don't know, that sounds weird, but um and I think Ike absolutely prepared me for that moment.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm grateful for that.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm all I mean, I don't know if we're ever grateful when our parents die, but I'm grateful for being for the dad that he was, he's an awesome dad, but I'm grateful for being with him in that moment.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like what a gift that was.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and so the question being, can we can we make room for the gratitude, but not be super, you know, not think the moment was wonderful?
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I think absolutely.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, uh what you're getting to is yeah, there are things that we're not grateful for per se.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: And yet I think part of what happens in those moments of of loss or difficulty is that it can expand perspective taking for sure and allow us to appreciate things uh uh with more spaciousness around uh, well, when someone dies, we're reminded we don't have forever.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh can we appreciate each day and and each moment and the goodness that they they do bring.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh when we have when we lose our health or have an an accident, an injury or illness, when we reclaim our health, uh we're very grateful for the relief.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so things that we can take for granted sometimes, the sharp edges of life remind us of the goodness that's there.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: I was listening to uh a reel the other day, and I can't remember who the individual was being interviewed, but his his point was, and and and you know, this people can take it or leave it, but I I found it thought-provoking where he said, um, suffering is life's way of is the universe's way, God's way, whatever you however you want to hold it.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's its way of teaching.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: And because invariably through suffering we learn.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, you know, I guess it depends how you describe the word suffering.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I know for myself, all of the crappy experiences I've had throughout my life have absolutely resulted in my growth.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: There, I can't think of one thing that uh, you know, that wasn't uh fun or, you know, anyway, something that wasn't enjoyable, that in the end, years, months later, had a benefit to my evolution.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I've talked about soul before, didn't go there trying to lose.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: I we obviously wanted to win, but in retrospect, losing in that final, there are so many gifts that have come out of that moment.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: Meeting you, being top of the heap, right?
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know that we would have met if I had won.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um our journey together, the work we do now, so much my ability to be a different parent, partner, so much of that stems from the struggle, the suffering.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe suffering's a little big, but the struggle that I had through those times.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: Wouldn't wish them upon anyone, anyone, wouldn't want to go through them again.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: But who, baby, did it ever move the dial in terms of my growth?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: And maturing and who I became later in life.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: So grateful for the loss, not grateful for the moment, if that makes any sense.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: And the same for Ike.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, super grateful for that dog.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: My goodness, what a transformative being he was in both of our lives.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: And but not grateful.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of the double-edged sword of having dogs, right?
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of that contract we signed that invariably the dog is most likely going to go first.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the crappy part about having a dog, is that you let this creature into your heart for I don't know.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Ike was Ike was nine years, and Katie was 16.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: And who, baby, when when that leaves, it is ow.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: That is suffering.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: I would say that's suffering.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: They teach us about death and the cycle of life and the impermanence of things in a very visceral way.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: We have a deep value of learning and growth, and it serves us well.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I always return to Baron Katie's expression: if you argue with what is, you lose.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: So uh every life has elements of difficulty and adversity.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, when we can make sense of what those experiences mean to us and grow forward with them, aligned with our values, then we can extract the goodness uh or potential goodness when the hard stuff comes.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and and that's the piece that we've brought into our work is the idea of, in the face of challenge, in the face of those obstacles, being able to strategically ask yourself, how can this be the best thing that ever happened to me?
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: Now, granted, we've had this conversation many times that during workshops or in between or what have you, that the importance of that strategy, of that technique is is that is the timing of it.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_02: And that after the moment, the challenge, the suffering, whether you're still in it or not, allowing the emotions to flow, the process to happen.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: So that in on the back end of whatever happened that was lousy, if you try to implement that strategy too soon, it's not meant to deny what you're going through.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's important to let the shame, the pain, the whatever emotion is alive in you to run its course.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: But then when you're done with that, I think it's a very effective way to then step back and go, okay, how can I make that, how can I be a creative problem solver in my own dilemma?
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: And and when I think of that now, if if I go back to Seoul, it would have, it would have, it could have saved a fair whack of time because I got stuck in the Olympic loss story so deeply that I wasn't able to step back and go, okay, well, where are the opportunities here, Jace?
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so I wish I wish someone had maybe invited me to consider that after the event.
• 25:29
  unknown: Right?
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: I just think it could have moved things along.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: When I've used it in my rowing coaching, especially in 2014 with the crew that I coached at Ridley, holy jump and talk about challenges throughout that year, lots of challenges.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: But in every moment, the response from me and from the athletes was okay, how do we make this the best thing that ever happened to us?
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll tell you, it was impressive as hell to watch 16, 17-year-old teenage boys embrace a strategy that I think is uh a complex one to utilize.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_02: And and and we used it uh to full advantage, and and it ended up being a really useful tool.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: There's power in um looking for opportunities, and and to me that speaks to um our worldview and our bigger, our broader orientation when we have an orientation of appreciating the gift of life because we feel a sense of belonging, we feel the support of people in our lives, we feel loved, we feel the bounty of nature and how it feeds us, our basic needs are met, then uh living life as a gift, it's easier to have a growth mindset and an orientation of what's possible in this difficult circumstance or this challenge.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: And having a rhythm that allows us to stay connected to that, I think, is really in part of being resilient in modern times.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: Every time has their stuff, but there's a lot going on in the world that can really be discombobulating and despairing.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so being able to turn towards what is good and beautiful in the world as a practice, to have bigger space and ground to hold challenges, I think is is a certainly it's a rhythm that that I um endeavor to cultivate in my life and invite others to do so as well.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: And whether it's gathering with people that you enjoy being with, who care about things that go beyond your personal circle, and you explore how you can care for the things that you value, um, like nature, and and nature's a good example for me for how um gratitude and generosity hold hands.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: When I do a um a mindful run in nature and take in that beauty, I just feel so full that generosity flows from that gratitude.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: I want to give back to the earth.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: I I feel generous towards people.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: I want the goodness that I've received to flow back.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: And similarly, when people are generous and I notice that generosity, um it it evokes gratitude as as well.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: So that it feels like there's a tight relationship between gratitude, feeling gratitude and being generous and receiving generosity and feeling grateful.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um they're they're a beautiful pairing in life.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you know, I just it just sort of came to mind when you said that.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: The character, the literature, the liter uh what would I how would I say that?
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: The character from literature, how about that, maybe?
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um I was gonna say Grinch.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's not Grinch, it's Ebenezer, right?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: In Scrooge.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's the same experience when he has his night of of seeing life past, life future, and then wakes up, I'm alive and feeling grateful for that life.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_02: He's a he's he's a new man.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: And what does he do?
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: He he is generous to uh the gentleman, I can't remember his name, who worked worked at his in his accounting uh company, and he's he's a different person because the generosity is is a byproduct of the gratitude that he has now discovered and is obviously feeling.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe that's one of the reasons why that story is so is a is sort of a yearly classic where people like to be reminded.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's a great old black and white movie, but it's also a good reminder of of uh of the true meaning of Christmas and of being generous and of taking a moment to to check in and go, wow, you know what, maybe I've got it pretty good.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think I wonder if there's science behind that, but I'm curious as to why with each decade that that knob kind of gets turned up for me.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know if it's the passage of time, I don't know if it's the preciation that that there is a finish line and it's coming closer than it was 10, 15, 20, 30 years ago.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know, I don't know what's contributing to it, but my ability to be grateful and what I'm grateful for now is far different than when I was younger.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: When I was younger, it was most of the things I was grateful for were tangible.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_02: The things that I'm grateful now for for now are often experiential, or relationships, or things that you can't necessarily touch.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: Is there anything in science that uh that tells me what I'm experiencing is quote unquote normal or what we see?
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds like your perspective has expanded as you've matured and and grown with life and you have more practice uh expressing gratitude.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: There is research showing that gratitude supports a resilience.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: It supports pro-social behavior, especially when people take in, uh have an experience of awe and and and beauty.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh when people go on awe walks, which is in some ways a form of gratitude, they're more likely to express uh pro-social behavior.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and distress the overall distress uh goes down.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a positive emotion that is fortifying, and I certainly for me the practice of of running and in nature is very much a place that just helps me appreciate life, makes me feel grateful and generous.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: So it feels like an orientation that's um also relates to to belonging.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so it feels like there's a lot of elements that relate to gratitude and an orientation to grateful living as a way of attending to life.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's open-hearted, um, connected to our senses, and uh relational.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: And and in terms of the cycles of the seasons, autumn in the uh ancient Chinese medicine tradition with the the spirit of autumn relates to Po, which um holds appreciation.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: And the the sensory element of autumn feels elevated to me.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: I I love this season, and that combination of uh appreciating the preciousness of life along with letting go of things, that there's also a dying off, the leaves are falling.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so it's quite interesting that there's uh acceptance and allowing, and grief are part of that element, along with appreciating and how those can be intertwined.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_02: I guess it's for me, it's the it's how the just the mere perception changes changes the same experience, but we we see it and hold it differently.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: I'll use my my graduating class as an example, high school.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I was fortunate enough to go to a high school where it was a boarding school.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_02: I wasn't a boarder, I was a day student, dad was a you know a teacher, housemaster there, so we lived on campus.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_02: Very fortunate upbringing.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um we part of what that school holds dear are the alumni.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so every five, every 10 years, uh, well, and on and on and on.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: So goodness, my our next will be 45th yikes.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_02: And it seems that with every reunion that I go back, I appreciate my classmates in a way that's different and perhaps even more better than I did before.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like when I was when we were in high school together, many of them I didn't even like.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_02: And and I'm sure that the feelings, I absolutely sure the feelings were mutual.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_02: But when I see them now, all of that is is forgot.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know, I just see them differently, I hold them differently, and I have an appreciation for them then and now, even though we may not be in touch for the five years in between.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's I I can't explain that, but it's and I and I'm I'm sure it well, obviously, it just has something to do with my getting older.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: I don't hopefully it's not still maturing, but um there's just something that changes every time I go back.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_02: I see them a little bit differently, I appreciate them a little bit more.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_02: And and I wish that I could have held them and seen them like that when I was when we were in this class together.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's it's sort of that expression, life is wasted on the youth, or or not, you know, it's kind of a harsh comment, but I get it because I wish someone had could have come up to me and said, Hey, you know what?
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: These people are going to be really important to you at some point in your life.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like maybe you should be careful or think about the stupid ass things you say and do.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_02: And and I just wish we had that uh crystal ball isn't the right term, but I just we wish we had that awareness that that that these things are going to be history someday, and we're going to look back on them, sometimes with regret, sometimes not with with not with regret.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: And and so I just wish that awareness, that wisdom, for all of us, kind of came to the game, came to the show much sooner than it does.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: Is that is that weird?
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't think so.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: We have perspective that that changes as we experience life.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I can think of countless times where uh having a child, for example, and apologizing to my older siblings for how clueless I was about what they went through when I was young, when they were parenting.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um as becoming a parent again, what my parents, our parents gave to us, you appreciate differently when you're there.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's perhaps a natural rhythm of life.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: And your point of how uh gratitude for human goodness strengthens our connection to people.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that um that brings us closer.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe it's post-COVID, I'm not sure, but you know, during COVID, there was so much uh isolation that when when the reconnection happened, it was amped up.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_02: I I'm not sure.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: We were more ready for it or or even uh keen to reconnect.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_02: And um, yeah, I just I you know when I think of people, I was thinking about this earlier today.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: The crazy part about people that I consider mentors in my life, all of them, except for perhaps one, have died, are no longer, you know, in my life.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I wish, and it speaks to one of the things we talked about earlier, about you know, one of the things to leave with our with our listeners.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_02: I wish I had been more proactive in expressing my appreciation for the role that those people were playing in my life at the time.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_02: And because all these years later, again, I look back with a different perspective, and I can name coaches and co-workers and friends and teammates who left way too soon, who played a major role in my development as a as a human being.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I again I wish I had had the awareness to pull them aside and say, hey, you know, just so you know, and then be able to express how grateful I was for the impact they were having in my life, my dad especially, right?
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I just think that's that's an important invitation to leave with listeners, is you know, if you have a person in your life who you would likely consider a mentor, is what would it take to acknowledge that to them personally and and tell them?
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, when I've had when I've had rowers that I've coached, people that I've taught who have either sent emails or I've run into them later in life, and they've expressed how much I meant to them as a teacher, as a coach, holy smokes, that means the world.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's that's hopefully why most people get into education or coaching.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so I guess I would just invite, like, I would give anything to be able to tell my dad, some of my growing coaches, Peter Yates, Kevin Neufeld, um, all of these guys, to be able to tell them in the flesh what they what they meant to me then, what they meant to me then, what they mean to me now, that would just mean so much to me.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I sort of kicked myself for not for not.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: You did express gratitude to your person to them while they were living.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, but there's some element that feels incomplete.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_02: But it was in their it was in their dying days that I told them.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_02: So when I knew there was a finish line coming, I was able to gather myself and express because I didn't want the regret to be there.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_02: But why did I have to wait for that?
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, how does it inform how you express appreciation and gratitude now?
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I just I just think I'm more generous with that.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_02: If if I I'm I'm more willing to tell someone to put myself out on a limb and say, hey, just FYI, like what you did then or this or that, what you know, whatever, I want you to know what it meant to me.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_02: And and the feeling that I get from that, I'm sure, is gotta be pretty darn close to how it feels to receive it.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_02: Because it just does.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_02: We talked about this earlier.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_02: When I've been part of workshops or groups where people in a very meaningful way get up and express their gratitude about other individuals in the room, holy smokes, what a powerful moment that is.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's beautiful.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_02: And so I just I guess the invitation is here, what are we waiting for?
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_02: What are we waiting for?
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_02: If you have an opportunity to share with someone how they what they mean to you, how how you feel about them, freaking take it.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_02: Because Yeah, it sucks if you don't have that moment.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: I incorporated it into my morning reflection in my journaling.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: One of the questions that I answer or reflect on is um, who do I want to send uh or express appreciation or gratitude towards today?
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh just inviting the question on a regular basis can be a way.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: And there's research that people overestimate how awkward they might someone might feel receiving appreciation and underestimate underestimate the impact that it will have on them.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes there can be an attitude of, oh, well, they know how I feel.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah um, and for some people they are uncomfortable with that.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: And yet uh it's worth taking the chance.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_02: I I think I just just one more story to close.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_02: What I what just came to mind was going through a checkout at a grocery store here in Victoria, and the student or the person behind me, when I turned to look, she was uh a young, well, she's a young woman now, a mom, who I taught.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_02: And and she said, you know, I just want you to know you were always yada, yada, yada.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: And what was what I found so beautiful about that moment, it wasn't just Hearing that, it was it was the the cat the till, the woman working at the at the cache.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_02: She was beaming to hear what this uh what this student had to say about my impact on her.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought, wow, this it's not just me, this is infectious.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so when we walked outside, I said, hey, you know, thank you.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_02: That's I think that's why most people get into education, is is to have that kind of impact on someone.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_02: And so thanks for taking the time.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, happen chance or or not, but we did run into each other.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_02: And and good for her for taking, for grabbing that moment and going, you know what, I'm gonna tell this guy what he what he meant to me and what he did for me.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_01: And to your comment to the the cashier, yeah.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I just know what hearing about human goodness does to my life, yeah, and does to my heart.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to share that with people.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: When people express moral courage or they're generous or they lift people up, it it's the spirit of this podcast to expand that in the world.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, there's incredible beauty and goodness, and our lives are, despite all the horrors and difficult things that are happening in the world, there's so much that we receive with every breath, with you know, uh with clean water, with um a comfortable bed, there's so much.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_01: And being able to spread that and expand it so that more people in the world can enjoy the bounty that we do.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um living in uh a very safe, uh, healthy space.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_02: For sure.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_02: And and then that reminds me that when I see those interviews on the uh the School of Hard Knocks, when they interview millionaires, billionaires, almost consistently, it is never about the stuff.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_02: What those people are grateful for are relationships, experiences, and yeah, I mean, sure, they've got houses and mansions and cars and trips and what have you, but it's never what they talk about when they reflect on their lives and and what got them into what they do.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's a good reminder because so often we think that that the stuff, that getting there, arriving, is going to bring the gratitude.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I and invariably it doesn't.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so, I mean, goodness, I thought an Olympic gold medal would bring me the gratitude.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_02: I thought it would bring me happiness, self-worth, all those wonderful things.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_02: So not only did we not win it, but I've since learned that that's just not how how how we roll.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_02: That that when that when it when there is a chase and we and we get to the finish line and the prize is there for us, invariably we wake up the next morning feeling the same way we did when we went to bed.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think that's an important piece to remember that that we can that there's always something to be grateful for, right?
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_02: And uh and invariably it comes down to relationships, experiences, the small things, and that that in the end contribute to us feeling pretty darn good about our our life.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_02: At least it can be, anyhow.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think what you're saying relates gratitude to presence in some way, that our life is made up of moments.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: And when we can really be in the moment, then gratitude um is more likely to flow through that experience.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh just in in a closing uh reflection, inviting questions for our uh listeners to think about what supported or enriched my life today, uh can I pause long enough to really let that in?
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: And uh who would I like to uh thank specifically?
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: And how might I care for what I appreciate?
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh does does uh deep appreciation evoke the desire to care for that which you appreciate?
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_01: Are there any others that you would like to add to that?
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think so.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: I just think you know, again, what we talked about with the podcast is not just imagining the good, but looking for the good and then naming it, taking the time to name it, what's good in my life, and how does being more of aware of it wake me up to what surrounds me.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_02: And uh yeah, that's that's what I try to try to do.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_02: And our little dinner time ri ritual is brings it brings it front and center.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, thanks for the conversation.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm grateful for our conversation.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: And thanks for listening today.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see you next time.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_02: Bye everyone.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_02: Before we go, we'd like to leave you with the guiding questions at the heart of Imagine the Good.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_02: What's good in the world?
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_02: How can I build on that?
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_02: And what might become possible if I did?
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_02: Take a little time to sit with those questions.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_02: And if this conversation brought someone to mind, consider sharing it with them.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for spending this time with us.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_02: If you'd like to help others discover Imagine the Good, please follow or subscribe to the show and leave us a rating and review wherever you listen.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_02: Until next time, keep finding the good in your world.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_02: Look for moments to elevate and celebrate life in your circles and imagine what we can become together.