Latest / Martyr's Row / Ep. 46 - Was King David a SHORT King?

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Ep. 46 - Was King David a SHORT King? · Martyr's Row

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This week on Martyrs Row... Was King David a
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ginger? Did the Septuagint make Goliath short?
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Did King Saul have an elongated head and tiny
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little legs? Saul tall Paul call small brawl?
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Y 'all, welcome to Martyrs Row! Three, two, one!
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Saint Vincent, deacon of the church at Saragossa,
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served under the aged Bishop Valerius, whose
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infirm speech he often supplied with bold confession.
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In the persecution under Diocletian, both were
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seized and brought before the governor, Dacian.
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Valerius was banished, but Vincent, being young
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and steadfast, was reserved for torment. He endured
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racks, scourges, and fire, yet in the midst of
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pain mocked the cruelty of its persecutors, saying
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they had power over his body, but not his soul.
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At last, worn with torments, he yielded up his
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spirit, and his body was cast forth without burial.
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But the Lord honored his servant, and his memory
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was spread throughout the churches. Thus Vincent,
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faithful in service and fearless in suffering,
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showed that the strength of Christ is made perfect
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in affliction. Anno Domini, 304. Hey Paul. Oh,
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what's up? I'm glad you're back. It's so good
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to be back. That was a really good nap. I know.
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I mean, no one realizes you were just laying
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on the floor the whole time during the solo app.
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But you were so kind and you didn't wake me up.
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No, I didn't want to. I thought, you know...
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I think I can handle this one. Paul needs his
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rest. I don't need him. Paul needs his rest.
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He already hit record. My hand is dangling over
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it. I should have cut too. That was hilarious.
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Well, I missed you, Paul. Yeah, I missed you
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too. But I'm glad the show went on. The show
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must go on. It must. All of our live listeners,
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they needed to see it happen. And by live, I
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mean alive. You were breathing, right? All of
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our living listeners. We love our bots too. Yeah,
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and those who have gone before us. After all,
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it is Martyr Joe. Yeah, and there are many that
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go before us. That's true. More before us than
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behind us? That's not a thing. The ones that
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are before us are behind us. That's kind of a
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weird sentence. No. There's more before us than
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behind us. But those who came before us are already
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in our behind. I mean, they're behind us. They're
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in our behind. In our past? Yeah. Okay, that
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makes sense. I have small children. How about
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you? I don't even know how I guessed that. Well,
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it's just funny because like, so the movie David
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came out in theaters and that's not, it's an
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animated movie that you wouldn't necessarily
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see if you're an adult, I guess. Okay. But, right?
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I mean, I haven't seen it. Okay. I have. I kind
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of want kids now just so I can take a dive into
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your world. Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, you'll be sleeping
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on the floor of the studio a lot more. Oh, that's
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true. Just to get away from the screams. Oh,
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no, just because you'll fall asleep everywhere
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because you're so tired. I believe that. But...
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You know a phase of life. Yeah, so animated movies
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like typically you wouldn't go see an animated
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movie Unless they'll know when I have kids because
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we'll be all solo episodes But no, I guess like
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maybe it's like a Christian thing like maybe
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Christian people go and see animated movies if
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they're a Christian Yeah, I feel like a lot of
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they'll go see a movie because it's a Christian
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movie. Yeah, right. Regardless of if there's
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real humans or not. Yeah. Anyways, I went and
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saw David with my kids, right? And my oldest
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is seven. So I'm like, there's a few things that
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he's like really interested in. And so I'm like
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telling him a few things about some of the details
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as it's going through, because I'm like, oh,
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that's interesting that they added this piece.
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Lean over and tell him. He's like, oh, that's
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interesting. I don't know if he remembers any
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of it. He's like, shut up and watch the movie.
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Anyways, of course, so David, who ends up being
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King David, there's the scene where he's watching
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over his shepherds, and this lion shows up, right?
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Yeah. And we know what happened. We know what
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happened in the biblical sense, but we don't
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know the details of it. But because this is a
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movie, they fill in the details. Yeah. And they
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filled in the details in such a way where it
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was like he was trying to like sneak around it
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and protect one of the sheep that was like injured
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and like trying to like, which made sense. Like,
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like, yeah, you need to be quiet little sheep
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so that the lion doesn't know you're there. I'm
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trying to hide you from the lion and like maneuver
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around. So it's like very intelligent what he's
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doing. Right. But then the sheep who's hurting
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makes a noise and the lion goes after him. And
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basically, it shows David running and jumping
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at the side of the lion. So almost like a linebacker
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or like a free safety out in the middle of the
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field, like trying to cut off the lion instead
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of facing the lion. And then hits the lion and
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the lion, I guess the weight of David, against
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the weight of the lion is great enough with the
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force of his movement to push the lion off of
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a cliff. Oh, dang. And then like get trapped
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and basically die from the fall. Oh, I see. So
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it implies that David was heavier than the lion.
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Yeah, that's true. And that the force pushed
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the lion off. So David doesn't fight the lion.
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Were they like at the edge of a cliff? So they're
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in hill country, which Bethlehem is hill country.
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And then where David would have been, it would
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have been more hill country. So you're like,
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there's not massive cliffs. Okay, there can be
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at certain points, but it's more so just like
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a lot of hills Yeah, a lot of a lot of hills
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and crevices. Okay in spaces that like you could
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slip down and it would be a Decent fall. Okay.
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Got it. You know what I mean? Yeah, so like that's
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that's kind of what it shows But it was a little
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bit more like they were showing like alright,
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so if David was actually a kid He probably wasn't
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like just straight up fighting a lion. Yeah,
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but Maybe he maybe the lion is small enough that
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he's bigger than the lion by weight and could
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could have Knocked the lion and like out cunn
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to the lion I feel like it could have been simpler
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than that to you in what way like he could just
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use a slingshot Well, that's what I think we
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would like I think that's or because actually
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like I don't know if you know this but it's like
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even the the without lethality Like how lethal
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yeah, I Don't think it's a word, but you can
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use it now the leaf out the lethality of How
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lethal yeah the shot is the lethality of a slingshot
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Would describe how lethal a slingshot could be
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it makes sense to me. Yeah, I get it I'm there
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with you. I was tracking. Thank you. So with
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even like the accuracy of it. Yeah. So they were
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actually like slingshot users. Yeah, yeah. Were
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part of like it was a military function. Yeah,
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that makes sense. But they stopped using it for
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bows and arrows. And the reason for that is like
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it was so hard to be good at it. But a good slingshot.
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Practitioner? A good slingshotist? A good slingshotist
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is better than someone with a bow. Yeah. As far
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as they can be more accurate at a longer distance
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and it's more lethal. Yeah, so... They can sling
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it at like the speed of a bullet. You can't deny
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the lethality of a good slingshotist. I was trying
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to put it all in a sentence. Our boy David, he
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was quite the slingshotist. It's true. Yes. But
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I thought that was interesting. And then another
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scene that I was like, wow, they really leaned
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into this. Which is funny because you don't see
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this in like drawn or animated Bibles or like
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picture Bibles or kids Bibles or anything like
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that. Or at least I haven't seen it. But as soon
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as they show Goliath, The first thing that they
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show of Goliath, they don't show his face. He
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walks out and they show him from the side, and
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then they take this long, noticeably long pause
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at his foot, which has six toes. Oh. Yes. That's
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interesting. It is because Goliath, it doesn't
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say Goliath has six toes. Right. But his brothers
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are described in that way. Yeah. So that's interesting.
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Yeah, because it was like who wrote that um Okay,
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I almost could have answered it, but it's somebody
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that um so one of the executive producers on
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it was Tim Keller oh Okay, so like it's one of
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those things where it like is one of those things
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were like it was paused on there And maybe my
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brain just slowed everything down for a second.
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It was really like a two -second like maybe maybe
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But it felt like forever. I was like, wow, they're
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really holding on these six toes. Look at them
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dogs. But it was also a little bit like that's
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not how, again, that's not really how Goliath
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is described right away. Yeah. But that's a cool
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detail they added. It was a cool detail. I was
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like, whoa, that's kind of cool. I'm like, oh,
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someone knows something. Yeah. And I leaned over
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to my oldest and I was like, did you see that?
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He has six toes. He was like, what? And I said,
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yeah, giants in the Old Testament had six toes
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on each foot and six fingers, which is wild.
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It's pretty wild. Yeah. And are described that
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way in Samuel, I think. Yeah. So that that's
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kind of interesting, but I thought that was a
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really cool detail. Yeah, watch that now. Yeah,
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so go watch David This is a grown adult with
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me and watch an animated show be a hey Hey, hey
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listener be a grown adult with me Watch kids
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stuff and consider the lethality of a good slingshot
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is yeah, don't ever don't ever neglect that do
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not do it This episode of Mars Row brought to
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you by the new motion picture David. Three, two,
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one. I don't know, we'll see what's... What?
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What? Ha! Ha! Ha! Lying in the shadows, firing
12:38
the night Days we remember, we hold them tight
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They didn't bow in the coldest glow Come take
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a walk on Martyr's Row Martyr's Row Martyr's
12:58
Row They wouldn't let go, steady and slow Or
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martyrs grow, martyrs grow Pain's on their wrists
13:17
but their hearts stay free, sitting in a cell
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like a prophecy Truth kept burning when the world
13:24
said NO! Come take a walk down Martyrs Road.
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Martyrs Road. We're on Martyrs Road. Martyrs
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Road. Martyrs Road. Through the dark, they won't
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let go. You're not alone On martyr's row On martyr's
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row On martyr's row On martyr's row On martyr's
14:19
row On martyr's row We are the notes who came
14:25
before martyr's row So last week, yeah last episode
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last both last night who knows but I That would
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be why if you watch the last episode, you know
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why that would be wild Paul just appears out
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of nowhere. Hey Well, so I explored this idea
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and it's this idea of Samson being a short king.
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Now Samson was not a king. Samson was a judge.
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But in our modern, velacular? Vernacular? This
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wouldn't be mod norm though. I guess it would
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be. It would be. Actually we don't know that.
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Because mod norm is more like. I guess it would
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just be norm. The last couple of hundred years.
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Yeah it might just be norm. Or just like, it's
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just norm core. When's the last time you heard
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that? When the office first came out? But then
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you wonder, because I guess we don't have any
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writings where they're in the early church, they're
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like, yeah, by the way, Samson is real short.
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Oh, right. Well, that was, yeah. It would be
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hilarious. So I guess we just don't know. If
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it's like, Samson the judge was a short king.
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Wait, what? With the Council of Nice and we all
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know Samson was short. Yeah Why are we bringing
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this up? True good point. I wish somebody would
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have said something. Yeah, that would be kind
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of funny actually, but Okay, here's the thing.
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So I had this idea for some reason in the last
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couple months I've just gotten really interested
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again and and I say again because this happens
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to me periodically I just get really interested
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in the things we don't really think about or
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know about main characters in the Bible, but
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then also finding characters we don't really
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know anything about. And by character, I'm not
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referring to fiction. I'm using character as
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like, like we say it all the time, like that
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guy's a pretty funny character. You know what
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I mean? Like it's a human. It's still a person.
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Yes, yes. But they play a role in that. And so
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my thought was, since last episode was a solo
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episode, and you didn't get to experience that
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with me. That would defeat the permit. It would,
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yes. That's a good point. I thought maybe we,
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like we've had a couple different runs of like,
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we talked about Israel for a little while, had
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like a series on that. We did like our myth series,
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which is our most famous series that people want
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that in hardback. book form, and I understand.
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I know I do. And so I figured, why don't we just
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start a series? So my question for you tonight
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is pretty simple. And if you watched the last
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episode, you might be able to see where this
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is going. But I think we're in a new series that
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this might be the last volume or it may be the
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second of many. Nice. But here's my question,
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Paul. Was King David a short king? The short
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king series. Welcome to the short king series.
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Part two. Now here's the thing. King David, was
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he a short king? Takes on a different... Because
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he was actually a king. He was literally a king.
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Whereas Samson is a judge. So I can't say, I
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would have to say is Judge Samson a short king?
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Yeah, that's too wordy. But it's also... more
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humorous than is King David a short king? Yeah,
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that's true. I should probably ask, was David
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a short king? But then you wouldn't know who
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I'm talking about. And they're like, who's David?
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Yeah, which one? Because you're Paul. That's
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true. That's true. And I'm Steven. So like that,
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it's like introducing now David. Hey David. He's
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just over in the corner. And then we just measure
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him. It's a three minute episode. That's how
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we introduce a third host. How tall are you?
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So Paul, was King David a short king? You know,
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that's a great question. Thanks. In the most
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mod norm sense I can think of. And you know what's
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funny is, I guess we kind of know David from
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a period of his life. For a long period of his
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life. Almost his whole life. Pretty much. Yeah.
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Oh yeah, so I guess we don't just like jump into
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his life. At what point are we talking? That's
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a good point. And so I guess it's uh, we don't
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know how tall he was in general, because no one
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ever, they never tell us. But to be fair, when
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he was a child he was not a king. That's true.
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So maybe we're only referring to the time in
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which he was a king. Okay. But you'll have to
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tell me that. Well, let me answer the question
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the way I want to. A king according to whom?
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Because according to God and the anointing from
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Samuel, he's a king much earlier than he actually
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becomes a king. That's true. So at the earliest
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bit of his un -reign. His spiritual reign, but
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not physical reign. I don't even know if you
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could say that. I don't think so. Who cares?
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Eh, we said it. Yeah, so I think, when I think
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of David's height. Okay. Which you often do.
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I do more often than I should. That is actually
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my Roman Empire. There you go. David, how tall
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is he? Oh David, how tall are you? Oh David.
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I'm searching the Psalms, like, are you learning
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more about God? No, I'm trying to figure out
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how tall this guy was. But see, the thing is,
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if you're Catholic, you can't pray to David because
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he wasn't a saint. That's true. Unfortunate.
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Yeah. Because then you'd be like, oh. Oh, David.
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Oh, David, how tall were you? How tall? And he
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answers, and you're like, what the? Or Mary answers
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for him. Oh, that's true. That's how that works.
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He's real short. He's about my height. Says the
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Virgin Mary. Well, it's all over you. That's
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not play test, lady. I guess you're going to
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ask how old I am next, huh? Well, now that you
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were on it. Well, we kind of already know. Yeah,
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true. Everyone knows how old you are, Mary. You're
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the eternal virgin. Oh, that's great. So King
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David. So King David. How tall was he? Well,
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so the picture that I, whenever you think about
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David's height, the image I think about is the
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David and Goliath story. Yeah. Because I think
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that's when we're like, oh, here's tiny little
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David. Do you have a sparkle, a literal sparkle
21:56
on your eye? I think I might. You should probably
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do something about that. I thought I got him.
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I can feel it now. Yeah, I think it's actually
22:05
in your eye. Use your hand. It's literally on
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the lens of your eye. Do you have contacts then?
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I do. Is it right in this one? Yeah. Even if
22:15
you're watching, you probably can't see this.
22:17
I might just have a twinkle in my eye. No, it's
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directly on your eyelid. Really? It's right in
22:24
the middle? No. No, it's right in the middle
22:27
of your eye. This is the weirdest thing I've
22:29
ever experienced. I don't think I'm going to
22:32
get it. No, but it's on your eye. Yeah, okay.
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Well, it makes me feel better that it's that
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you have contacts on yeah Yeah, i'm gonna throw
22:38
these away when I get home. So if you're only
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listening paul has a literal sparkle on his eye
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Not I lid on the actual eye. It's a little twinkle.
22:48
I have it's pretty crazy So I was tripping me
22:53
out because it's I was actually on your eye painting
22:56
a ceiling today. Okay, and they want to glitter
23:00
Glittle? Glitter on the ceiling? And that stuff
23:04
gets everywhere. I, okay. But I didn't catch
23:10
the one in my eye. So on the ceiling? On the
23:13
ceiling. So do you paint it and then throw glitter?
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Yes. That is, and then do you put like a sealant
23:18
over the glitter? No, it just sticks right to
23:20
the paint. That is, honestly that's frustrating.
23:25
Yeah. Especially when it gets in your eye. Yeah,
23:27
it's literally on your eye. That's crazy. Yeah,
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I can't feel it. So I think that's a good thing
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That's because you have a layer on your eye.
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Yeah, that helps. Okay, as long as you know and
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as long as the listener knows Especially the
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listener who's just listening. They're just like
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wow he actually And the ones that aren't they're
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gonna have a really hard time seeing it that's
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amazing But worth mentioning yeah, maybe if the
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light catches it so King David so King David
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how tall was he? So the story that we think about
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in that scene is like, here's tiny little baby
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David. Yeah, with Goliath. In this massive Goliath.
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Right. And so I, being the person that I am,
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I kind of want to challenge that a little bit.
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OK. As far as how small he was potentially? Well,
24:16
it's like, OK, so how tall was he actually in
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that scene? Because we're always told, oh, he's
24:22
this puny little character. OK. but there's a
24:26
couple pieces in here that it's like, well, where
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do we actually get that? Yeah, go ahead. I like
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that. Yeah. And you know, it's like, he might
24:34
actually be that small, but I'm like, but let's
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actually like do the work and find out. Yeah.
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That's what we like to do around here. And you
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keep saying small. Do you mean young? Well, yes,
24:45
young, but usually when people like, I'm thinking
24:48
of like even like the Veggie Tales version of
24:51
him's like, oh, he's like a seven year old kid.
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Yeah. Yeah. And so they paint him as like, oh,
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he's like four foot five. He's puny. Yeah, that
24:59
makes sense. And so there's a few things in the
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story as I read it. It's like, wait, what? OK,
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let's let's look at this. OK, yeah, yeah. So
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the first thing is like scripture never actually
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explicitly calls him short. OK, so that's our
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first clue. Yeah, not clue, but just first thing.
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So in first Samuel 17. The text it never says
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that David's short it never gives David David
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a height measurement Okay, and it never contrasts
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David's height with Goliath's numeric numbers.
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Oh, okay. Yeah in numeric terms So what it does
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emphasize is what you pointed out is his youth,
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right? It says, you know, he says I am but a
25:43
young But a youth. But a young. I am but a young.
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I am but a young. I am but a youth. Do not bother
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me. I am but a young. Well, and so that's the
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other interesting thing, too, even with the idea
25:55
of youth. And I wish I wrote this down. But there's
25:59
a lot of times where there's a word that in Hebrew
26:03
that we translate as youth. Yeah. But it actually
26:05
means like 20 years old. Oh, OK. That makes sense.
26:09
And so we actually see that with Solomon. Oh,
26:12
gotcha. Because he's, I think, about 20 when
26:14
he takes the throne. Okay. But it uses, I think
26:17
it's the same word to describe him. So it's kind
26:20
of like this range where it's like he's not seven.
26:23
Sure. It's like he could be between like 15 and
26:26
20. Well, and the thing that's tough is like
26:30
traditionally a bar mitzvah and then later on
26:34
added bat mitzvah. Bar mitzvah is celebration
26:39
of a boy becoming a man. Yeah. And that happens
26:42
at age 13 in the Jewish culture. But rabbis technically
26:49
don't become rabbis until around the age of 30.
26:53
Which is why Jesus doesn't start his ministry
26:56
until he's 30. That makes sense. So it's like
26:59
congruent with how that lays out. So there's
27:02
a pretty wide gap there between when does Solomon
27:08
taking rule At what point like if you're let
27:12
me put it this way So in the modern terms if
27:15
you want to be the president of the United States
27:17
One of the one of the main like simple barriers
27:21
is you have to be 35, right? Yeah, so like what
27:25
what does I wonder what that looked like in reference
27:28
to the Because we know like an ancient culture
27:32
There was not necessarily a limitation on someone
27:36
becoming a king as far as how old they were,
27:38
right? because we have like Egyptian kings that
27:40
were like 12 yeah it's true so like that's not
27:44
unusual but it is interesting to think about
27:47
like well technically by society standards David
27:53
would be a man at age 13 yes but if he's like
27:59
if they're expecting the king to be 30 years
28:01
old and he's only 20 then he's kind of a young
28:05
boy. He's like, you're young. Yeah. Yeah. So
28:07
like, but does that, that doesn't necessarily
28:10
mean he's 10. Right. And maybe that's where the
28:13
error comes in. I think that's where part of
28:15
it does come from. It's like, well, if they're
28:17
calling him a boy, then he has to be younger
28:19
than 13. Right? That's what we would think. Yeah.
28:23
And that makes sense. Yeah. And there's a couple
28:26
other things here where I think where we get
28:28
some of this idea. Okay. So the other thing that
28:30
the text emphasizes his inexperience in war.
28:33
Gotcha. So it's like, we know, like he says in
28:36
himself, he's like, I fought a lion. Yeah, yeah.
28:38
And it's like, OK, so he's he can fight in like
28:42
the wilderness in the pasture. Yeah. But as far
28:45
as warfare goes, like he has no experience as
28:47
a warrior. Mm hmm. And then the other thing is
28:50
his low status. Gotcha. So he's the youngest
28:53
son. He's not enlisted and he's sent to deliver
28:56
food. Like he's just like their young little
28:58
delivery Brad Aaron boy. Yeah, yeah, and it's
29:02
like, oh, here's a little David with our food
29:03
Yeah, that makes sense. So it's like, okay. So
29:07
in the terms of using small yeah Well, he is
29:10
very small because he is still young right? And
29:14
he has no war experience. Yeah, and he's also
29:17
the youngest son So in every term it's like he
29:20
is the smallest person. Like metaphorically.
29:22
Yeah, and not necessarily smallest in stature,
29:24
but in maybe cultural status. So like his ability
29:32
to be the next one called upon. Which we see
29:36
that with Samuel going to the house of Jesse
29:39
to look for the next king of Israel. And it's
29:43
like he keeps going down the line from highest
29:47
ranking individual to lowest ranking individual.
29:51
Not necessarily oldest to youngest. Not necessarily
29:55
tallest to smallest. Well and even then it's
29:57
like we can even see another picture how low
30:00
status David was. Because he wasn't even present.
30:03
Yeah they didn't even consider him. His dad didn't
30:06
even consider him. That's a good point. Yeah
30:07
so it's like oh he's just out in the field. It's
30:09
like I guess we can go get him. Yeah, but then
30:13
there's also the other side of like, well, he
30:15
also could have been the best one at that job
30:17
too. Yeah. And so his dad wanted him to stay
30:20
in that position. Yeah, which is very possible.
30:23
Yeah. But yeah, so it's like we kind of see the
30:26
text keep emphasizing his low status. Yeah. And
30:29
I think for what the, and I'm not gonna use this
30:34
word to say the story isn't real. Okay. But I'm
30:37
using it as like the person who wrote it. There's
30:40
intentions like okay, so the storyteller. Yeah.
30:42
Yeah. Yeah, and it's like not storyteller in
30:44
the good says fairy tale Yeah, but what are the
30:47
pieces that he's the writer is trying to emphasize?
30:52
Yeah, like what what are what's the point? They're
30:54
trying to make with the story sure and the point
30:56
that we see I think with David is like oh He's
30:58
actually just like a low -ranking person mmm,
31:01
and then let's contrast that against these other
31:03
two characters Yeah, so then with that it's like
31:06
okay. Let's take a look at Saul real quick, okay?
31:10
So Saul is kind of our benchmark for tall. Got
31:13
it. In this story because we're actually given
31:16
like an idea of how tall Saul was. Okay. Good
31:20
thing it rhymes. I know right. Oh this is gonna
31:23
be good. I got so much rhyming. I got so much
31:27
rhyming in here. I got so many more words. They
31:32
all link together. So Saul is repeatedly described
31:39
as, from his shoulders upward he was taller than
31:43
any other person. Oh wow, okay. So he's like
31:47
a head taller than everybody. Yeah, yeah. Aren't
31:51
the older brothers of David also mentioned in
31:56
that way? It's like his oldest brothers seem
31:59
to be of great stature. I don't know what's on
32:02
my head. Yeah, I don't, yeah, keep going, sorry.
32:05
Yeah, yeah. So yeah, Saul is Israel's ideal king
32:10
by ancient Near East standards. He's tall, imposing,
32:13
and he looks like a warrior king. Got it. And
32:17
so that's an interesting piece with that. And
32:21
I'm just saying looks -wise, because in the ancient
32:24
Near East, it's like, okay, a lot of the other
32:27
kings... We're huge. Yeah, are we gonna get all
32:30
the way into this? No, we don't have to. Even
32:33
though we're kind of dancing on it. I just wanted
32:36
to point that out. Because that was kind of the
32:38
big thing with when Israel was like, no, we want
32:41
an actual physical king and not God as our king.
32:45
Maybe the next episode is Saul. Yeah, that'd
32:48
be cool. So maybe let's not talk about it at
32:51
all. Okay, I'm gonna leave that piece. There's
32:53
a little nugget for you. A pretty juicy one.
32:55
That's pretty big. And so the piece that I think
33:00
the storyteller is really pointing out in this
33:03
area as well with Saul is Saul is like the ideal.
33:08
Yeah. He's the guy you want to go and fight your
33:10
wars. He looks like a king of the world. Yes.
33:14
Yeah, by worldly standards, he's perfect. Yes.
33:17
Yeah. Don't say anymore. I won't. Okay. But yet
33:21
that'll be for a future episode. Yeah. But yet
33:24
Saul isn't the one who fights Goliath. correct
33:27
he refuses to yeah so it's like okay here's your
33:30
ideal king who's a warrior yeah he has battle
33:34
experience yeah but he's too afraid to go fight
33:38
this other warrior yeah and even in stature yeah
33:41
in stature wise he's tall right and we'll get
33:44
into that a little bit too okay um not the way
33:47
you're thinking but just general rough numbers
33:53
That's a rough numbers here with so that contrast
33:57
matters more than David's exact body type Okay,
34:01
got it. Yeah, the tallest man in Israel is paralyzed
34:03
with fear And the anointed but not yet King.
34:07
Yeah, he's the one who steps in right and we
34:09
know status wise He's the lowest ranking person.
34:12
Yes, so it's like well, that's kind of interesting.
34:15
Yeah Because he's not even delivering the main
34:18
food, right? He's delivering his brothers. Well,
34:22
and it's like It's like condiments. They're like,
34:29
oh I forgot the mustard. David. I think he's
34:34
bringing like bread and butter. That wouldn't
34:36
make sense, it's like a snack. Yeah, it's like
34:39
not substantial, like he's not bringing like,
34:42
he doesn't have like meat over his shoulder.
34:44
Yeah. You know what I mean? And I don't know,
34:46
it's always kind of funny to me though, the...
34:50
Like the picture of here they are in war. Yeah,
34:54
and David's just gonna like saunter on in and
34:56
be like here's some bread Yeah Actually, there
34:59
is something well keep going because there's
35:01
something interesting about where they are too.
35:04
Hmm, but that's not really what we're talking
35:06
about Okay, okay. I did this on the solo episode
35:08
where I was like, but also no, no, no, I can't
35:11
do I can't go there It's so easy. Yeah. Yeah
35:15
So let's talk about Goliath real quick. Okay,
35:18
because Goliath we are given We're given a lot
35:21
of numbers. Actually, I'll do this in 30 seconds.
35:24
Okay. The reason why I would bring it up, okay.
35:27
The reason why I would bring it up is because
35:29
it involves Samson. So Samson is a part of the
35:32
tribe of Dan. Not part of, so David in the house
35:37
of Jesse would be in the tribe of Judah. Yeah.
35:41
And that's the line or the tribe in which Jesus
35:45
comes, the Messiah comes. Yes. But Samson is
35:47
part of the tribe of Dan. And the Danites are
35:52
originally in the south region, where Gaza is
35:55
now. And they were, their job as part of the
36:00
12 tribes was to keep the border territory of
36:04
Israel. But they couldn't do it. They were being
36:07
ruled by the Philistines. So what eventually
36:12
happened, like through Is it, oh, what book is
36:20
that? Not Joshua. Judges? No, oh yes, judges.
36:26
Through judges what we end up seeing is we see
36:29
Samson, like the Danites move from the south
36:34
region all the way to the northernmost point
36:36
of Israel. Oh wow. And when they do that, it
36:40
pushes, like the Philistines push further up
36:43
into the promised land. Oh, I see. And so by
36:46
the time we get to David and Goliath. They're
36:47
already pretty far out. So the Valley of Elah
36:50
is like, so if you fly into Tel Aviv, which is
36:57
typically where you would fly into, at one point
36:59
it was the capital city. I think it's been changed
37:01
to Jerusalem in the last 10 years or so. But
37:04
when you fly in there, Tel Aviv is like almost
37:08
parallel with Jerusalem. And when you drive from
37:12
Tel Aviv into Israel to Jerusalem, you drive
37:17
through the Valley of Elah. Oh, whoa. So like
37:21
at the point when Goliath is coming up against
37:26
the army, the army, the army, at the point that
37:31
that's happening, they are in a valley like just
37:35
south of Jerusalem. Oh, fascinating. So they're
37:38
like pushing it. So this is like serious. It's
37:41
major. And bloodline wise, we've talked about
37:44
that. It is as well. But it's also like they're
37:47
encroaching on Mount Moriah. Got it. And also,
37:52
but that kind of starts back with Samson. Where
37:55
like Samson could not defeat the Philistines
37:58
and the Danites could not keep them out of the
38:01
territory. So they fled. So they fled to the
38:04
north region, but that allowed the Philistines
38:07
to continue moving north Oh interesting until
38:10
you get to King David That's interesting and
38:13
now they're in the Valley of Elah, which is just
38:15
south of Jerusalem Okay, so it actually is kind
38:19
of what that's and that makes sense to especially
38:21
with How the story is being told? Yeah, like
38:24
really emphasize Saul's Inadequance here sure
38:30
it's just like yeah, like this is One of the
38:33
most serious battles he could be in and he is
38:34
too afraid to do anything 100 % there's a ton
38:37
of weight on it. Yeah, because it's it's that
38:39
idea It's like at that point for hundreds of
38:43
years. They've been trying to push the Philistines
38:45
out Yeah, and they keep coming in and ironically
38:48
the Philistines are like their descendants like
38:53
land of Canaan is encroaching back on the people
38:57
of Israel. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah So
39:00
that's really interesting. Yeah. So that was
39:01
more like a minute and a half, but I'll take
39:03
it. So pretty quick. That was good. That was
39:05
good. So yeah. So our boy Goliath. I like that.
39:11
Yeah. We like, we like talking about Goliath.
39:12
We don't, we've never done it. I think we've
39:15
mentioned them for sure. Yeah, that's fair. Talked
39:17
about giants and stuff. So this one, it is, it
39:20
is complicated with how tall Goliath is. Um,
39:25
and cause we're given depending on what text
39:28
is coming from, we have two different answers.
39:30
Isn't it, doesn't it get all the way to like
39:33
Septuagint? Yeah. Okay. And that was. Which is
39:37
a past episode, go listen to that. Septuagint.
39:40
And that actually was something that, there's
39:44
a reason for why they did some of those things.
39:46
Sure. And I can't remember what it was. I think
39:48
a lot of it had to do with because in Hebrew
39:50
there's no vowels. Right. So there were some
39:53
things they kind of had to guess and it's like
39:55
well that kind of looks like this Yeah, but it
39:57
could be that yeah, but we're gonna do this Yeah,
40:01
so we kind of have a range here Actually, what
40:05
I wonder what the Vulgate says. Oh, that would
40:07
be interesting. Yeah, like what did Jerome go
40:09
back? That would come to you. That would be cool
40:11
So Goliath's height is famously six cubits in
40:16
a span or four cubits in a span hmm, so Either
40:21
he's roughly nine foot nine or six foot six.
40:25
Yeah, I mean that's cutting a third. Yeah. Right?
40:30
Yes. Yeah. That's crazy. I know personally, I
40:35
lean toward the larger number. Yeah, yeah. It's
40:40
more fun. It's more fun. It's more fun. But honestly,
40:43
even if he is only six foot six, it's still massive
40:46
and we'll get into why. OK. So yeah, so what
40:52
that means is because we're looking at I think
40:54
it's the Masoretic text puts the larger number
40:57
Yes, but then the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint
40:59
put the shorter number Oh, the Dead Sea Scrolls
41:01
holds the shorter number. I believe so. Got it.
41:03
Okay Yeah, I'll have to double check that one.
41:05
That's what I had written down here. Yeah So
41:09
that means that the earliest textual witnesses
41:11
Describe a very tall but plausible warrior. Okay,
41:16
so it's like okay like this guy could be six
41:18
foot six. Yeah um and you're not necessarily
41:22
like this like massive height yeah um so the
41:26
story may not be but there are potentially other
41:29
scarier things about his appearance that adds
41:33
no that's true well in that like even describing
41:37
those things and what he's wearing there's i
41:41
mean that that's a whole other bit just to talk
41:44
about that But even when you look at the weight
41:47
of the armor and what's proper ratio for height
41:53
and weight. Did we not talk about Goliath? I
41:55
feel like we did a whole. I think we didn't do
41:57
a whole thing on him. Okay. But even that's actually
42:02
why I tend to lean toward the larger number.
42:04
And it's because when you look at the weight
42:06
of his weapons and his armor versus what's a
42:12
good ratio for someone to actually be able to
42:14
fight well, it would lean him toward the larger
42:17
number. That's like a whole breakdown. But it
42:20
would be more impressive with the smaller number.
42:22
It's impressive and very difficult. But I think
42:30
one of the bigger pictures here is what the story
42:34
is trying to tell us. It's not like, here's this
42:36
tiny boy versus a monster, but here's an unarmored
42:40
shepherd. Versus an elite class warrior. Yes,
42:45
I think but also a monster just in the oh not
42:47
in what you're Also a quite a literal monster
42:54
still kind of Well, so actually let me jump here
42:57
real quick like not a monster of a human but
42:59
an actual monster So, I mean actually I'm just
43:05
gonna jump down here real quick Maybe we should
43:06
do and just talk like numbers. So we should do
43:09
a future episode on the stature of Saul We can
43:11
continue our Short King series. And then Goliath.
43:14
And then we'll do, oh, should we do that in this
43:17
series? Or should we do like Goliath, Man, Myth,
43:22
or Legend? I like that. Yeah, that's good. That
43:26
could be kind of funny. Yeah, okay. But let me
43:29
just jump real quick to you. I'm just brainstorming
43:31
future episodes. Yeah, I like it. These are all
43:35
things we need to write down. Just kind of like
43:39
the numbers of what Saul and the rest of people
43:43
were probably like. Got it. So yes, we're told
43:47
Saul's from shoulders upward, taller than everybody.
43:53
But neck down? Very short. He's average. He has
44:01
the longest neck. He is literally head and shoulders
44:05
above everybody. Everything from the shoulders
44:09
down. Very tiny What if that's what that meant
44:18
and we were just miss like misinterpreting it
44:21
for a long time amazing actually Guys know it
44:25
meant that he had a massive head his head was
44:28
huge which honestly if you look at Again different
44:33
Okay, well actually we're gonna talk about a
44:36
little more So that statement is a relative statement,
44:42
because it could mean his head is just huge.
44:45
So it's not a real measurement. But most scholars
44:49
reasonably infer like that word. Saul was exceptionally
44:54
tall for this time. So that means that they have
44:58
done a lot of reading and research, and they've
45:01
concluded that it's a reasonable assumption,
45:03
but they have no idea. So I mean, so based on
45:07
like, this is an estimate. So the average Israelite
45:11
man was like between five foot three and five
45:15
foot six. Right. So like short boys. So actually
45:20
in the short king series, all of Israel. Breaking
45:25
news in the short king series. Well, actually,
45:28
have you apparently it includes all of Israel.
45:31
Have you ever been to. like an exhibit and scene,
45:35
like medieval armor? Yes, but I don't remember.
45:41
Okay. Well, one of the things that kind of stands
45:43
out to me whenever I've seen it, because we actually
45:45
had one at the Cleveland Art Museum. Okay. They've
45:47
got like a bunch of their armor sets together.
45:49
Yeah. And you're like, these guys are not tall.
45:52
Okay, that makes sense. It's like, they're like...
45:55
Five foot six. That's why they needed armor.
45:59
Yeah Well, so even that's a tiny night Little
46:08
action figures so it's like the I mean even like
46:11
a Roman centurion. Mm -hmm the ideal height for
46:14
a centurion I think was five foot seven Yeah
46:18
We know I think at that at that point there were
46:21
people that were six foot. Okay and people that
46:25
were shorter. But they're like, no, like the
46:27
perfect height is like this five foot seven.
46:30
It was probably the most consistent. Yeah, that
46:33
was like the way that their battle strategies
46:37
were. Well, and six foot would be an outlier.
46:40
Yeah. So yeah. And if you're too short, it's
46:42
like, sorry, you can't join, bro. Well, probably
46:45
also because blacksmiths. Just like making armor
46:49
itself. We'll talk about that actually, that's
46:53
another thing at this time. So if that's true,
46:56
that range for an Israelite, Saul might have
47:00
been between five foot 10 and six foot two. So
47:03
it's like, Saul's actually pretty tall. He's
47:05
a big guy. And so even if we take the small number
47:08
as like six foot six, which some people say that
47:12
it was intentionally called Goliath six foot
47:14
six, in contrast to how tall Saul might have
47:18
been to show like, look, they're basically the
47:21
same size and he's still freaked out. Oh, I see
47:23
what you're saying. It's like six foot versus
47:25
six foot six. Yeah, which is still a pretty big
47:28
difference. It's also three sixes. Uh -oh. Are
47:33
they in cahoots? For a future episode. Ruh -roh.
47:39
So yeah, so tall, tall. Oh my gosh. Saul. Saul.
47:44
He looks like a king. Old tall Saul. Old tall
47:47
Saul. That's what they called him. Yeah. Old
47:50
long neck Saul. Old big head over here. So that
47:58
being said, I kind of want to jump into one scene
48:02
in particular. Okay, do it. And that's between
48:04
David and Saul. And that's the famous scene where
48:07
he's like, hey, why don't you try my armor? So
48:10
I think this was the big thing for me that kind
48:12
of sent me down this path. Because I was like,
48:14
that's kind of interesting. So the short answer
48:19
of this is it doesn't really tell us anything,
48:22
but it does tell us that David wasn't radically
48:26
smaller than Saul. Got it. And OK, what do I
48:30
mean by that? So in that we see that Give me
48:35
the details. Yeah, actually, I'm going to start
48:37
here first. Do it. So armor was not mass produced
48:41
for or standardized like modern military gear.
48:44
Sure. Royal armor would be custom made. Right.
48:48
But with some flexibility. OK. You know, there's
48:51
like belts and straps and layers. So height mattered,
48:55
but frame, training and movement mattered more.
48:59
So that was so there's some like, oh, maybe solid
49:02
like a really big feast and he's like Oh again,
49:04
like five pounds his armor would still fit him.
49:06
Yeah, so it's like, okay, so There is some flexibility.
49:11
Yeah, but it's not like oh here's someone who's
49:13
four foot eleven and some guy who's six foot
49:15
They're not wearing the same armor. Yeah, it's
49:18
more so if the same guy gains weight or loses
49:20
weight Yeah, that makes some there's some give
49:22
-and -take. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that would make
49:25
sense if you think about like Shoulder pads for
49:27
a football player. Yeah. Yeah, it's like they're
49:30
sitting up here on your shoulders So like if
49:32
your belly gets bigger, it doesn't really matter.
49:35
Yeah Yeah So the text says saw clothed David
49:44
with his armor and David strapped his sword over
49:47
his armor and he tried in vain to go For he had
49:50
not tested them. Mm -hmm. And so that's the thing
49:53
that I've seen in I think from almost everybody,
49:59
is like, here's this oversized armor sitting
50:02
on David. And it's like, well, where do we get
50:04
that from? Because that's not actually what it
50:07
says. And also, if Saul's like, hey little boy,
50:13
try on my armor, it's like, what, do you just
50:15
wanna get a good laugh out of him? And that's
50:17
a good point, too. It's not like Saul is trying
50:19
to humiliate David. Right. Like he's not saying
50:23
like, oh you think you can do this? Let me take
50:25
it a step further and go Oh, you really think
50:27
you can do this? Check this out. Yeah. No because
50:30
in some ways like it was It was probably seen
50:34
as like an act of humility by Saul. Yeah to go.
50:38
Oh I don't want to go fight this guy. Yeah, if
50:41
you're willing I will give you I will clothe
50:44
you because using that terminology is huge I'll
50:47
clothe you in my armor. Yeah Like, I'll clothe
50:50
you in the armor of the king. And it's kind of
50:53
like a small piece here to say about Saul. It's
50:55
kind of normal for him to relinquish his duties
51:00
as a king. Okay. We see that a lot in his time.
51:03
Yeah, I guess you're right. And so it's like,
51:05
here's another moment. And I think that's one
51:07
of the things the storyteller's trying to point
51:09
out is like, here's another situation where Saul
51:12
didn't want to actually do what he was supposed
51:13
to. Yeah. And so, someone else said they do,
51:16
and he's like, okay, sweet, you can even wear
51:18
my armor. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's
51:21
a good point. Or, it was actually more of that
51:24
royal thing of like, he probably within himself
51:28
was like, I don't feel like I can do this. You
51:33
seem to think that you can. And he probably wasn't,
51:36
again, trying to make fun of him, but instead,
51:39
trying to clothe him and send him out in his
51:42
place. Yeah. And yeah, I think that that even
51:45
speaks to the potential stature of David. Yeah,
51:48
and the other big piece here is that maybe even
51:50
Saul thought this is gonna fit you weird, but
51:53
it's not gonna swallow you. Right. You can actually
51:56
still wear it. Yeah. And he could, because he
51:59
put it on. Right. That's the thing. And the text
52:02
never, and no translation does it ever say, but
52:05
it was too big. Right. It's like, well, what
52:07
does it say? It says that David hadn't tested
52:09
the armor. Yes. And so that points to a couple
52:12
things. One, it's like the armor probably fit.
52:15
Yeah. At least enough. But it also shows that
52:20
David wasn't used to wearing armor. He wasn't
52:24
used to being a warrior. Yes. And so for him
52:28
to wear armor that he's not used to in a situation
52:32
that he's not used to, it would be weird because
52:35
he's like, oh, I'm used to moving in a certain
52:37
way. and I can't move in this. Especially because
52:40
he's handed a sword too. Yeah. And he's like,
52:45
I'm not gonna use a sword. Yeah. So in some ways
52:49
his rejection of the whole thing is a little
52:53
bit more like, I'm not doing this how you guys
52:59
do it. You're expecting me to run out there with
53:00
a sword and fight this guy? The same way you
53:02
would. I've never done that. Right. But also
53:04
the same way you would. Right. what we know about
53:08
David against Saul is like, David's kind of a
53:14
foil to Saul. Or I guess because of David's,
53:17
like in some ways, Saul may be more of a foil
53:20
to David in a literary sense. But being that
53:25
he was always doing the opposite, like he's the
53:28
young shepherd in the field and he's the one
53:31
called upon by God. It's like, he's the low and
53:35
he's being brought high. And also, this is one
53:39
of the things we've talked about too, and what
53:41
I mentioned on the last episode about Samson,
53:45
is that it wasn't his stature that brought him
53:47
victories, it was that the spirit of the Lord
53:50
came upon him. And so like with David, how much
53:55
more does it point to the God of Israel, not
53:58
to David himself, that David comes out with no
54:01
armor on and a sling? You know what I mean? It's
54:04
pointing more to the God of Israel. Than it is
54:07
pointing to David as a mighty warrior. Yes, absolutely
54:10
Because even later it's David's not considered
54:13
among his mighty warriors. Hmm, but he does have
54:16
mighty warriors Yeah, that's true, which is interesting.
54:19
That is true. Yeah, that is interesting Yeah,
54:21
and there's also another interesting piece with
54:23
this As a descriptor we get for David. Yeah And
54:27
it's the classic whenever knows that he was ruddy
54:29
and handsome But those things don't mean small
54:36
Sure So this is in first Samuel 16, okay, which
54:40
I I think The David of Goliath that's for Samuel
54:44
17, isn't it? It is Just put a time frame on
54:48
this. Okay. Yeah. Um, and so it says he was ruddy
54:52
with beautiful eyes and handsome They're really,
54:55
really laying it down. Love that. Yeah, they
54:57
love themselves from David. Yeah. Well, Saul
55:00
was mentioned in a similar sense. Yeah. Yeah.
55:05
And so it's interesting, the word ready here.
55:07
Yeah. That's not a word that I use often. No.
55:09
I don't know about you, but. Unless I'm mispronouncing
55:12
ready. Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm a little ready Or
55:18
or like you're trying to say rusty and you say
55:21
ready. Yeah mixes both words together. Yeah Paulism
55:26
a Paul those happen a lot And so that word it
55:31
often implies healthy vigorous reddish complexion
55:36
Oh, so it doesn't mean Childlike or scrawny.
55:40
So did David have red hair? We can talk about
55:43
that. Okay. That's a big one. Well, that's another
55:46
episode. Okay. That's our red. That's our red
55:48
hair series Okay Red heads in the Bible. I like
55:54
that We have a lot of weird series on here. I
55:57
love it I never even thought about David potentially
55:59
being a red -haired man. Yeah Okay, there's a
56:03
potential implication of it. Okay Interesting.
56:06
We'll definitely talk about it because there's
56:08
also a similar thing for Solomon That I feel
56:11
like I did know okay, but yeah, go ahead So in
56:15
the ancient world, yeah beauty and men often
56:17
implied physical vitality and fitness for leadership
56:21
hmm, so When they're looking at David because
56:25
this is even before this situation. It's like
56:28
he's described as as ruddy beautiful eyes. Yeah
56:32
a little twinkle And so with that, it's like,
56:38
okay, so if they're calling him that and that
56:40
implication is he's healthy. It's like, well,
56:43
what does the beauty for them means? Like he's
56:44
physically fit. So it's like, he's not this scrawny
56:47
little tiny dweeb. It's like, no, he actually
56:50
can handle himself and he actually looks kind
56:53
of impressive. At least relatively. That makes
56:56
sense. For his youthful age. So honestly, it's
57:02
like, okay, so where does this really leave David?
57:05
So the armory conclusion in conclusion as I have
57:11
I have theorized So the armor scene Suggest David
57:16
was old enough to wear adult armor. Okay? Why
57:20
does that sound funny? You almost thought I said
57:23
adult diaper Yeah He was physically capable and
57:29
he was not absurdly undersized, okay But narratively,
57:32
David is still the youngest, the untrained, the
57:35
non -professional, and the one outside the military
57:38
system. So his smallness is vocational and symbolic,
57:42
not necessarily biological. Of stature. Yeah,
57:45
yeah, yeah. Yeah, great, yeah. And I think that
57:47
matters for the text again, because it's like,
57:49
well, it's pointing out a few things. One, it's
57:51
talking about Goliath is an actual real threat.
57:54
Yes. King Saul is the one who's supposed to handle
57:59
it. And he's actually the tallest person in Israel,
58:03
so he's the right guy to handle it. But he's
58:07
too scared to do it. And so here's this small
58:09
character in status, and he's willing to step
58:15
up and fight this. In rank is probably, yeah.
58:18
That's a better way to say it. Yeah, he's the
58:21
lowest ranked person. And yet he's willing, like,
58:24
I can do it. And so it's like, in a lot of ways,
58:27
they're really poking fun at Saul. Yeah, good
58:29
point. And they're showing the conviction and
58:33
the faith of David at the same time. So was David
58:38
tall? The responsible answer to say is no clue.
58:46
But we've read a lot. But maybe. Maybe. And I
58:50
think that's kind of when we look at it. It's
58:52
like, well, the only thing I can tell you for
58:54
sure is that he probably wasn't. Four foot nine.
58:59
And seven years old. And seven years old. He
59:02
was probably similar sized. Yeah. Like from from
59:07
what we've kind of walked through it's like I
59:10
think it's reasonable to say he was he was probably
59:12
close enough in stature to Saul. Not the same
59:17
stature. Yeah. But it's like if if Saul is six
59:20
foot two. Yeah. And David is five foot ten. He
59:24
could probably fit in the armor. Yeah, well enough
59:27
Yeah, and with saws large head and broad shoulders
59:31
and tiny waist and tiny legs It probably worked
59:36
it back out So was King David a short king No,
59:44
three two one