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AIM High: Building sustainability credentials in your brand · Two in Twenty

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to another episode of Aim High.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Twink Field.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: I am the founder of White Marble and the host of these podcasts.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: We are talking about building sustainability credentials in your brand today.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to be hearing from Ross Duncton, who is managing director and head of marketing and director BMO, as well as Benji Elston, who is director and head of sustainability at White Marble.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Benji's going to be sharing some of the research findings that we've uh we've got.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: We did uh an extensive piece of research recently with investors talking about sustainability and what they're looking for.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um and BMO did terrifically well in this research.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: So Benji's going to be sharing some of the insights, and Ross is going to be giving his reflections on how he managed to achieve such um great, great results.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: So hopefully there's lots in there for everybody and how we can achieve authenticity in the in the sustainability brands that we're building.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, and welcome Ross and Benji to today's podcast.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for taking some time.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: Perhaps you can just introduce us yourselves and then we will get into some questions.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Ross, why don't I come to you first and then to you.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Benji, both of you know the podcast, so it should all be very familiar.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so Ross Dungton, I head out marketing and director consumer here at BEMO within Amir.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: I've been at BIMO about eight years.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and before that, I've been in a number of marketing roles in other industries.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so really excited to be here today to talk about this particular topic.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: Benji.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Ross.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Benji Elson, I'm one of the directors at White Marble.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: Twink, you and I have worked together for about four and a half years now.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, amongst other things, I head up our sustainability proposition.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: So increasingly looking at both our behavior and actions as a business and how we work and engage and benefit clients.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: And my background is spending some time at Newton as a product specialist on their sustainability team there.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: I've also founded a climate change charity and done quite a lot of work with CISL, the Cambridge Institute of Sustainable Leadership.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: So hopefully have some views and opinions in the space.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: Superb.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the mainstay of this uh conversation is going to be sharing a bit of the research that we've done, we've done recently.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then Ross, with your um brilliant results from this at BMO, um, really getting your perspective as to sort of what's driven those um results and and how you've managed to create that awareness amongst your investor base.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: So perhaps to kick off, Benji, why don't you just give us um some of the thinking behind the criteria, the questions, and what we were looking to establish and maybe some of the highlights of the results.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think one of the things we haven't seen a lot of in sort of recent months is a genuine understanding of what investors are actually looking for and care about across different segments and across different priorities at a corporate and a product and a process level.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: So we see lots of kind of winners and losers in terms of fund flows from a sustainability perspective, but it doesn't really tell us why people are benefiting and why they're doing well and how they're positioning themselves.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: So having done a number of pieces of research in the last 12 months that kind of didn't really get to the heart of it, we've we've dug quite a lot deeper and gone quite intensively with a group of about a hundred different investors across the landscape to really try and understand across a kind of peer group of asset managers who's who's winning and who's losing, but actually understanding why and the factors that sit behind that.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's thrown up some really interesting results.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: We've had some fabulous feedback from clients that have asked us to present the results.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's it's given us some real food for thought as a business as to how we best deliver work for clients, understanding that the the investor perspective is underneath all of it.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: Brilliant.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe um just to give a flavor as to the different layers that we've kind of looked to sort of um establish as to what makes up a credible, kind of well-understood sort of sustainability leader.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: So some of those kind of key questions and criteria, we break that down into sort of five categories and maybe just highlight you know who who kind of were some of those leaders and maybe those further down the list.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: You've obviously stolen Ross's thunder already because BMO did perform extremely well.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: But I think you're listening you're absolutely right.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: We've tried to understand across a group of about 20, 25 big global players, um how they perform from a reputational perspective, from an investment perspective of their products that are perceived to be insustainable, across brand authenticity, across the kind of strategy behind sustainability and across the quality of marketing communications, how they rank against each other.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: So asking all of those hundred investors to score from one to five across a number of different groups and some quite clear winners, I'd say, particularly Schroeder's BMO, and perhaps slightly more surprisingly Amundi, given given their scale.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: But Schroeder's and BMO consistently across all of those five categories are a real winner.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: And at the other end of the scale, someone like Goldman Sachs, unfortunately, really performed quite poorly across all five of the categories.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um maybe not so surprising given their brand perception in the UK.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: But then some other businesses who've got long-standing reputation.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: So Investgo didn't necessarily perform particularly well.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Northern Trust, AXA, some of these other big groups slightly struggling and finding quite consistently there towards the bottom of the list.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say there was quite a clear theme in that the scores were clumped highest around investment performance, and then kind of took a step down in terms of the approach or the sustainability strategy that they had, and then consistently weakest at a marketing communications scale perspective, which obviously is something to be concerned about, I think, if you work in marketing.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: And that consistency across all those different criteria is so uh difficult to achieve, I guess.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so maybe Ross, just coming to you, your kind of reflections on that, whether any of those names surprise you or any kind of immediate reflections on the kind of way in which we were trying to break this down to get to some of the sort of deeper layers of what can help marketers build their brand credibility.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think there was there was certainly some surprises in the list at the top and at the bottom.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm it's probably not for me to comment on specifics, but if I just sort of generalize in terms of some of the people.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I guess the key point for me was that there was some further down the list that I, if you look at their underlying proposition when it comes to ESG and responsible investing, actually I would have thought would be higher on the list.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: And if you look at some of them higher on the list, I would have thought that actually they should be lower on this.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess that's kind of the point of this podcast.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: And what Benji was sort of talking about there is how it's articulated and how authentically it's articulated, how clearly it's articulated, and all those sorts of points.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I think that um there's lots of people, you know, every everybody's talking about ESG and responsible investment in the market.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: Well, not everyone, but lots and lots of people, increasingly and understandably and rightly so.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: But there's very few that are actually breaking through with simplicity and sort of clear messaging that people really understand for starters, but also believe.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's that's where the ones that I've sort of seen lower than I would expect.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's probably largely down to the communication.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, the fundamental proposition that they've got is pretty good.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and and sort of it's punching below its weight, I would say.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe we just pause on that for a second because clearly that is an area where marketing should be excelling, helping bring that communication to the market.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so um I guess maybe either of your reflections on how um the clarity from right from the top of a business can inform the clarity that then ends up kind of through all the different kind of collateral and communications through to clients that the kind of marketer can really kind of grasp and sort of take through in in with with that kind of same singularity and purpose.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: Benji, maybe should I come to you first for any thoughts on that around either what the research says or what you found people responding to when you've been sharing this?
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think it shows that it's really hard.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not a terribly helpful answer.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: But the contextual understanding of sustainability is difficult.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it's almost like it's just another thing that's landed in marketing's lap for them now to be another subject matter expert in.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: So it's an aspirational journey towards quite an undefined endpoint that is most likely going to change along the way.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: The data points are going to change, the expectations and the criteria and investor requirements are going to change.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: So there's already quite a sort of movable beast that the understanding across genuinely being an expert in terms of understanding sustainability at the heart of climate change and biodiversity and social aspects and governance makes it really difficult.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I think you are seeing quite a lot of content and campaigns and collateral being built on slightly unstable foundations of knowledge.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's leading to quite inauthentic positions.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that tends to lead you towards the disconnect that we see in the research at a performance level, a strategy level, and a marketing communications level.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: And don't get me wrong, there are obviously groups who are getting it right.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think BMO and Ross can talk to that a little bit.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: But at a sort of overall level, that's perhaps where it's falling down, is either trying to be all things to all men or not really understanding the areas that you need to own because your investors are telling you that they need to see you owning that.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: And clear measurable impact was one of the criteria that came through from the results of the research.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just about performance.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: You have to show me, don't just talk about it, show me how you are measuring impact in both an environmental and a social perspective.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I totally agree with that.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think that I think that all too often we um we make the assumption that getting something that is simple is easy to deliver.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: And it's so far from the truth.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: That's the beauty and simplicity in some respects.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's trying to, you know, it's it's really cutting through the complexity.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: And let's face it, we're in a complex business, just the business models and the bit, you know, the breadth of the businesses and all of those sorts of things.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: And when you when you look at something like ESG and responsible investment, I mean the fact that I'm even saying ESG and responsible investment, the terminology is not consistent in the industry.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: So actually understanding the industry in terms of you know where where is your competitive advantage or where are the potential competitive advantages, where where are people actually, what do they really care about when it comes to ESG and responsible investing?
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: But fundamentally, authentic brands are built from the inside out.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: So understanding what your underlying proposition is, and you know, and certainly the process that we went through, um, which was over 12 months, I can come on to that in a bit um in a minute, but we had so many stakeholders, all of whom have a very, very um strong opinion.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_02: Not, I'm not suggesting for one minute that it's not valid, but everyone has a strong opinion on these sorts of things.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, simply rallying people behind one simplistic message is a bit of an art in its own right.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_02: So marketing and communications play such a key role in understanding what your your own business proposition is, and then how that actually is best communicated and articulated within the market environment as well, and and to resonate with the particular audiences that you're talking to.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's not easy.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um but yeah, I think that's where actually a number of companies, a lot of companies probably are struggling with that because it's such a broad sort of piece of of overall propositions, it's expected to be these days, and like I said before, understandably and rightly so.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: So rather than um move that out, let's um talk about that now as it feels like a sort of natural, natural time to sort of dig into it.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: So you would say, Ross, that that part of the reason why you see yourself you found yourselves at the top of a lot of these types of research is because of that arduous work that started over 12 months ago, kind of bringing the kind of opinion informers, influencers, and leaders in the business together, and then grinding your way through the gears to be able to say something that everybody was behind and and everybody could be consistent about, and that you could then demonstrate that impact against in terms of the connectivity between your your vision and purpose and the impact against that and where what you stand for and what you'll take action against.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Would that be fair?
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think so.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we we so it's probably uh 24, maybe slightly more months ago, we had the uh we had the the the ask of so how do we better articulate our investment proposition within BMO?
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I mean, and and and you know, one of the first comments was, well, how long do you need about three months?
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, no, really not.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: If you want this done properly, we could we're looking at probably 12 months and we probably need a little bit of money to do it, not huge amounts, incidentally, but a little bit of money to just do the process, not about articulating it.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and the we we laid out a very um robust process, clear timelines.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: We had key stakeholders involved at the outset.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: So we had a very small working group, it was five of us.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, two of them, well, one was this CIO, global CIO, and one was the global head of distribution, just to put it into context.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: So it was a really, really sort of small um uh group, but we involved a lot of other people and we went around the whole business, all investment teams, not everyone in the investment teams, but all investment teams are represented, all distribution channels are represented.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: And we went through a process of getting facts, really understanding what the business did and how it, how, how, you know, what the facts are.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_02: We've got the business to agree those facts, what we've heard, is that correct?
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_02: Then we had the opportunity from a marketing point of view to start to get creative.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I think often within within marketing, we marketing is is, you know, one of the big attractions, certainly for me, is that marketing is such a creative sort of uh, you know, capability and area that we work in.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: But actually a lot of the creativity is behind the scenes.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's understanding what it is you're articulating, what you've got to articulate and aligning certain things.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: So out of the 12 months, to put that into context, nine of those 12 months were behind the scenes fact-find across all the different teams, getting agreement in terms of we do this, we do this, we do this, we don't do this, we don't do this.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then three months was actually about the creative articulation.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: And that's sort of the you know, the way that we brought it to life for audiences.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: And the other thing that I would say is that we we got to a place where you can get you you can start to get a solid strand or strands across the business, but it's it's unlikely that it's going to automatically work perfectly.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: And there's two levers, really, that as I see it, that you've got in that situation.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: One is to dial down the message to the lowest common denominator, but ultimately you're weakening the message, if you like.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: The other is to dial up the capabilities in certain areas to align them to the broader piece.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, it's a balance of the two.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: So you so you don't just accept where you're at, you potentially challenge, and we had some challenging conversations about we should be dialing these things up.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I think that that you know that was really um really important in terms of getting people aligned.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: We were very fortunate, I would say, that um BIMO has genuinely got a strong track record in this area.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_02: So, in terms of accountability, we've been tracking certain things for some you know, years and years and years.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: We've got a we've got a market leading responsible investment team.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_02: So we we had some really good, solid pieces that we could lean on and sort of build on that foundation.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: Not all businesses have that.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um but yeah, that process was fundamental.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: And it was really important because you have so everyone is has an object uh subjective view on these things.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone's a marketeer, everyone knows what they want, and everyone's gonna have a slightly different variant on it.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_02: And basically, what we deliberately try to do is get the objective view, agree the objective view, then leave the subjectivity in terms of how it was actually articulated to a very small group, making sure we took into account all the sort of input that we'd had, you know, where appropriate before.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, it was a really key process.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: Really fascinating.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um certainly, and and I'd love to talk to you uh also about what you think the key qualities kind of marketers need to drive that from within.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because certainly the work that we do in helping drive this kind of process is because as an external party, sometimes it's easier to get that objectivity and subjectivity through because all the emotion the politics is taken out.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: But equally, I'd love to talk to you about you know how you did that from an external internal standpoint and and how that um stakeholder management is so critical because I think it's very hard for so all marketers necessarily to sort of just kick off with those relationships and also get the business to accept that it's going to be 12 months and the importance for it and the need to resource it and take their time for it to get that persuasion through, um, I think is is amazing.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: And particularly then dancing along that line of authenticity to aspiration, we definitely find that that that can be an internal headache for people to kind of, you know, let's talk about what's in our business today.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to be greenwashing and go too far ahead.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: And and so it'd be great just to maybe talk on those elements if that's possible.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, of course.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I mean, so our CEO um joined the business, I think, probably around the time when we kicked off this project.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: And she was a massive, has been a massive advocate of responsible investment.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: So that really, really helped.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: We then had um, you know, like I said, the global CIO and head of distribution.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: Without the support of those three, this would never have happened, basically.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it was it was fundamental in terms of having that absolute, very clear, very active, engaged sponsorship from the top.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and from our from the stakeholder management perspective, you know, I mean, perhaps obviously it was head of global head of distribution and um CIO, because those are the two areas that we really need to work closely with to understand what we've got and what's going to resonate in the market, et cetera.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess the skill from a marketing perspective is how do we package those two closely together.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, for example, we had um very close working relationships.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the the the five of us that were on the working group, one was from investments, two from marketing, and then the the global CIO and head of distribution.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: Every month we would meet up, we would update them.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_02: We had a plan that we outlined at the very outset.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: This is the process we're gonna do, these are the dates that we're gonna hit, this is the stages we're gonna go through, this is what we're gonna update you every month.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: When this is when your checkpoints are, et cetera.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: Now we didn't hit all of the dates.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: Some things we were slightly behind on, other things we were slightly ahead of, but we were always open and honest with them in terms of that accountability.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: And overall, we hit the dates that we said.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, one of the one of the key points at the outset when we were having the debates around what do you need to to deliver on this, et cetera, was okay.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: So we need 12 months, I suppose we need a bit of resource, et cetera.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but actually, one of the obvious questions was, well, what does good look like?
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: What's success look like?
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: And fortunately for me, one of the my response to that was look, if if in 12 months' time, when we sit down and we take you through the end messaging, if your response is along the lines of that's bleeding obvious, what took you so long, we've pretty much hit the nail on the head.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_02: Because if it's not obvious, it doesn't mean that it's it suggests it's not really authentic.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: And if it's if it's if it's really straightforward, then actually we've got it really simple articulation.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I mean, bizarre, not bizarrely, I mean, fortunately, I guess, the the actual reaction was along those lines.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, but the but the senior sponsorship was so key.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: And and the senior sponsorship helps you get the sponsorship for and the buy-in for the heads of distribution, for the heads of the different investment teams.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: And yes, there's you're always scales, right?
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: And then their teams get bought in and all those sorts of things.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_02: If you if you don't, if you don't have that right from the top, uh it would have been a very, very different project, and we probably still wouldn't have delivered it now, if I'm being honest.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, the stakeholder management was fundamental at all levels.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: You know, when we had the sessions with the investment teams, etc., just making sure that we're listening to them, properly hearing what they're saying, playing back what they've said and taking it into account.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_02: Doesn't mean that we always, it's going to feature as one of the key points of a particular proposition, but making sure we've understood it.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, our role is to look at the bigger, bigger proposition and bigger picture, I suppose.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: Brilliant.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: And Benji, that was actually this sense of the agenda being set from the boardroom from the C suite.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: It was something that really came through in those high-level findings, wasn't it?
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you could just touch on that and and other high-level findings that actually really do fall into the kind of corner and quarter of marketing.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think Ross has summed it up really succinctly that the clear findings for us were the agenda must be set at board level.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: There must be high-level support for sustainability, and those maybe are controllable or not controlled by my marketing, depending on the business.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: But second stage from that was the assets manager must be able to demonstrate a strong fiduciary culture at a private provider level.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: You need to be able to demonstrate clearly and authentically purpose and vision, and there must be clear evidence of impact.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Those three things are all much more for any marketer, things that they can get their hands around, think about how to explain and articulate and demonstrate to an audience.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: So that was very much clear for us.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think one of the other main takeaways for me, because if you think after we'd rank some of these businesses according to those themes, we then asked the audience of investors what the criteria were that they looked for at a provider and at a process and a product level.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we're all guilty, and this is an age-old thing, of do we understand our audience?
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: Do we really understand our investors?
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: Because we're kind of guilty of clumping wholesale together and institutional together and marketing as such to them.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: And if you looked at the criteria that IFAs look for versus wealth managers, they are very different.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: And if you look at the criteria that consultants look for versus their clients, being the independent trustees and pension trustees, they're also very different.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: So do you truly understand the segmentation of your business and do you truly understand the content that you're creating and the way that you're communicating to those?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because IFAs still really care about reputation.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of them are scarred by Woodford and other scandals.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: So avoidance of ESC scandals is a really important thing.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas wealth managers are saying, you just have to demonstrate impact to me.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: I need to see the clear and measurable impact.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: You need to show me that your fund managers are front and center of your stewardship and engagement activities.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: There's real nuance in there.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: Consultants are saying this is about performance, performance versus peers, not versus a benchmark.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas trustees are saying, no, this is about impact.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: And furthermore, you need to demonstrate fiduciary culture behind that.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: You need to show me what it is that you're doing.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: So there are, I think, there are real disconnects and there are real traps that marketers can fall into if we bucket people as we have traditionally done so.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I'd say those were some of the really interesting findings for us.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: And the other thing I perhaps say was that the brands that resonated with those different types of audiences were wildly different.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: And you saw perhaps at the at the slightly more sophisticated wealth management level, brand seems to really trump history.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so web and impacts and other players who really powerfully have built a story around sustainability are really winning through.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas from an advisory perspective, um, businesses like Rural London, LMG, really strong traditional client-led businesses are performing particularly well.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: But there's really quite a stark difference in who seems to resonate with different parts of the audience.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: Someone like Bailey Gifford, amazing brand recognition from a consultant and institutional perspective, and really not very much so from a wholesale perspective.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then the one name that probably stood out to me by its absence as much as anything was Federated Hermes.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: When you think this is the build, this is the business that has built EOS, has really built the platform for engagement and to consolidate and scale up voting across the industry.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: They seem to have been pulled back into the chasing pack a bit.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, so much to get stuck into.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh no, brilliant.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: Why don't we um just take the nuances uh of what each of those different client types are looking for?
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love, Ross, to get your thoughts on how you have looked to unpack the story slightly differently for the needs and understanding you have for those different investor types, because I I could definitely see that trap that people going, well, this is our sustainability brand positioning, roll it out.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like that is consistent.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, everybody needs to know that about us, roll out the same messaging.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'd love to hear how maybe you've looked at how you've finessed that further.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I mean we've got a number of tiers of messaging, I suppose, as you'd probably expect.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: So uh, but like Benji said, the key is understand your audience first.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: And once you've got so effectively, we we developed an overarching proposition in terms of this is what we do, obviously understand our audiences or make it our business to understand our audiences, and then certain elements we will dial up and other elements we will dial down depending on the audience, depending on the you know who we're talking to at a particular point, et cetera.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_02: But I mean, so some things, so so um the Federated Hermes EOS, you know, we've got a Rio um uh service that we offer a responsible engagement overlay, which is which is similar.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so with wealth managers, with institutions, that sort of side of things, actually, that's a really key sort of um uh part of our proposition that we articulate there.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's also something that we look to bring out in terms of the overall assets under management or assets under engagement, if you like, because the the size of our assets under engagement with our Rio service for third parties, et cetera, is is significant when you take into account what we do for ourselves as well, of course.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, certain things when we're looking for intermediaries, for example, obviously it's more the products and the solutions that we've got for those particular intermediate, you know, advisors, et cetera.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: When we look for institutions, it's about some of the bespoking that we can do and that sort of side of things.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_02: But the overarching piece, I suppose that's that's in the detail of the messaging.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: The overarching sort of messaging is, you know, if you look at a corporate BEMO enterprise, so for financial group over in Canada, the purpose for BEMO financial group is to boldly grow the good in business and in life.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_02: Phenomenally well aligned to what we do within ours, which again, we're very fortuitous that that's the case.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: And um, the authenticity that comes with that is really, really powerful at a top-of-the-house corporate level as well.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_02: When we get into sort of BEMO global asset management, it's it's around you know, uh investing for a positive to make a positive impact.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so we've got overarching messages that we use at different levels, and then when we get into the specific segments, of course, we look to pull out the the particular elements uh that are relevant to those segments as well.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't I don't think we, you know, when I when I heard you ask the question, I was sort of thinking, well, how do how do we do that?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, we it's not necessarily something that we do explicitly, but we kind of do because we know our audience, and naturally we will just pull out in advertising or in our communications and emails, we just know what's going to resonate or what we believe is has a better chance of resonating with those particular audiences.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_02: But it's much, much easier to do, much easier to do once you understand the overall proposition, and all of them ladder back up to a single proposition.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: The single proposition ladders up to a corporate from a GAM perspective, global asset management.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: The global asset management ladders up to the enterprise in terms of the financial group.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: So it all, you know, and I've got some beautiful graphs that show or tables that show how the tiering of the messaging all tallies up, just because it's is that simplicity that just allows you to get that consistency and ultimately to start to get that real cut through across everything.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it's that thread that I think, and the laddering up through all those layers is so difficult.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's the peeling back of the layers sort of 12, 15 months ago, are the ones that you then kind of start to sort of roll out again when you sort of know exactly what what thread you're trying to pull through it all.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and I wonder to the point that Benji was making around the sort of slightly different names that came through from the different in um investors, um, depending whether we're talking product, process, or or at a business level, corporate level.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe this is my simplistic mind, but you know, I think maybe some of those sort of smaller purpose-led businesses that have recruited people around a purpose, that have been very singular about their messaging, have been able to bring people along that journey through that clarity.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas maybe some of these bigger businesses that are turning their tankers, that have got many, many layers to their businesses and regions and asset classes that are perhaps harder to sort of get that evidence around and storytelling through, that it's much harder to create that clarity and simplicity.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I guess as a as a reflection on that, I'd love your thoughts as to whether you you think that is kind of why we're seeing maybe those different names come through rather than some of the bigger names as yet.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: But maybe in your answer, you could reflect or do you think that the field is still wide open for some of these bigger businesses as they start to understand that thread, pull it through, be really consistent, simple, and aligned?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think I think ultimately there is space in the market in terms of that, you know, for bigger players potentially to come out and be more authentic and open to it.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's got to be authentic.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_02: So there's space in the market, but that doesn't mean that it's actually an opportunity unless it's authentic.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, um the position that we've, like I said, I absolutely recognize we were very fortunate in the position that we're at.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: We launched Europe's first ethically screened fund.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: So we've been doing it for 35 plus years.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: We've got, you know, and all of these other stats that I can quote.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: So we're in a very strong position.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: And we are recognized, I think, by more and more people in the market as being authentic.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: Is there space for others to sort of come into it?
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, absolutely.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: I I think one of the I was I've been genuinely surprised in a really positive way at the positive impact that our clarity on purpose has had.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's been phenomenal.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_02: And the reason it's been phenomenal is if you pretty much, I mean, I'm you know, you might test this and it might not work out, but if you ask, if you talk to anyone from BMO in terms of what they how they feel about the company and what the company does and those sorts of things, responsible investment will be a really passionate um response that you'll get.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not just because we go out there and we talk about it and and we, you know, so the reality is we haven't spoken about it that loudly in the market, actually.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: We've been under par in terms of share of voice and that sort of side of things for some time.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_02: But the authenticity is really true, is really there.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: And that comes from when I talk about authentic brands are built from the inside out.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_02: Individuals in the business truly believe this.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_02: They see it, they see the proof points coming from the business, they see the way that we act, the way that we do things, the way that we take stances against businesses.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: That authenticity is easier for smaller businesses to deliver than it is for bigger businesses to deliver, frankly.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_02: Because firstly, you've got to get the alignment from a corporate perspective, but as well as across the business.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_02: But also, you've got to be a business that's prepared to be bold and go out and make stances and things like that.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_02: And it's the stances, you know, if we talk about authenticity and getting notice, we don't do it for the reason of getting noticed at all.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: We do it for because that's what we believe.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: But it gets you, people see that and they see, do you know what?
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: They're prepared to make a stance against X Company.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's bold.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: They mean business.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and those that are not quiet on it, but those that if you don't do that, where's the authenticity?
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: When we look at our voting records, now our voting records, and you know, read into this what you will, but we vote against corporates or or or or um um more often than most.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: Now, that's not necessarily because we're maverick, it's just because we take the time to really, really consider what the what the um what the uh particular voting element is, and we we're quite prepared to vote against it.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_02: So the in the internal element in terms of the purpose is so fundamental.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: Bigger organizations, absolutely, there is an opportunity there, but it is really not that straightforward to deliver on, I would argue, because you've got to have that authenticity, you've got to have that story.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that is not an easy one to just deliver overnight from a business perspective.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's a really complex one.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, Benji, good luck following that.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: Anything to bad.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Jake.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think you have to decide what you're going to own.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: The data told us that nobody really is seen as a sustainability leader across the piece.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: If you talk to investors about engagement, exclusions, environmental impact, social impact, leadership, stewardship, nobody comes top of all of those lists.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: Even BMO, if you if you looked at an aggregate, fabulous performance.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: Not always called out as a leader when it came to can you cherry pick or can you name us a name?
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: So you you have to, as Ross rightly says, you have to think deeply about what business you are trying to be.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: Are you trying to be a business that just does no harm?
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that's okay.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: Are you trying to be a business that provides sustainable solutions?
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: Are you trying to be a sustainable business?
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: Those three things require very different directions of travel.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: And then beyond that, you're going to have to decide what it is that you're good at and the themes that you can really decide to own and deliver to clients.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then you can kind of go down that path.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what was interesting to us in the data is that the names across those different themes were really different across aggregate level, but across the different audience segments as well.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: No one can just be champion of everything.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody will believe that.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: There's no credibility in that.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's right.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: We talked to clients about really sort of um limiting your also your vision as to what you want to earn as well, just being very, very purposeful about it.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and of course, that demands quite challenging conversations, probably with your CMO, with your CEO, about what they truly care about, what they're prepared to stand against, how they're going to sort of transmit that across the business.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because as much as stuff, you know, we talk about cascading, um, all of that clarity and alignment really is what we're talking about for the authenticity point.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: Because we talk about authenticity, a lot of people sort of band it around, but really trying, you know, for our audience here, trying to sort of unpack that, which hopefully we've done, is it's it's easy to say, but very, very difficult to do.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it is all of that peeling back that we talk about.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: It is about having challenging conversations with very influential people who are used to having a voice in a business.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when you think of the boardroom and where where I think some of some businesses struggle is in the boardroom, maybe there is some confusion or there is um some graying of the priorities because you have maybe ahead of US or ahead of APAC that are saying, well, this it's not what our investors want.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: We need to stay true to what our investors have bought and where we what we need to continue to deliver for them, not necessarily move down this sort of sustainability track too quickly because we'll lose them, which is a valid point.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: But equally, you've got maybe some very investor-led business, investment-led business where you've got, I don't know, a head of equities or something that have a huge amount of your assets.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so they are very, very influential as to what they are prepared to be their investment universe.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they are difficult conversations.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so I would, I don't know whether that was something that that kind of chimes with you, Ross, or sort of whether you have some sympathy for some of these businesses where there isn't perhaps the same kind of clarity and coming together, given the nature of their business.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: I I absolutely have um some appreciation for other businesses on that.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like I said, I do think that we were very fortunate in that our CEO was absolutely behind it.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_02: And that made a massive difference.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, with her support, and she was very, very vocal internally and externally around it.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, with the fact that we had, you know, so so boards and um there's a there's a genuine, I mean, it was always there within the business.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't surfaced, if you know what I mean.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't externalized in the way that we that we that we have recently.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so it was almost a bit of a sleeping giant in that perspective.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_02: And she, you know, Christy was very, very clear on that.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: But having that support from the top, absolutely fundamental for all the reasons that you've just said, all of the challenges.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_02: You'll get different investment teams will have different beliefs on it, different distribution teams in different regions in different countries will have different beliefs in it because it would, you know, numerous different countries at different stages.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_02: But actually, it's a broader strategic mid-to-long-term positioning.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_02: You can't have positioning that's for one from one year to the next.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: You have to have a broader, longer-term perspective, otherwise, you're never gonna you know, um, have the positioning that you or strong positioning within a market.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_02: But you can dial it up in different areas, you can position it in slightly different ways or or or bring it to life for different audiences in slightly different ways that resonates better.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: But you've got to get a best fit across the board.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and ultimately, if business has got to stand behind something, if you've got a purpose, you've got to stand behind it.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, that's that when I'm talking about authenticity, that's that's the reality.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: You've got to stand behind the purpose.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and you know, like I said, we're fortunate in that we do.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: But it's a it's a self-fulfilling circle in some respects because because we're because we're very visual about it externally and loud about it, then actually internally we do even more.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, it just goes and goes and goes.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's great.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's honestly the the purpose, the senior leadership of it has been so so fundamentally important.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_02: I can't under egg that at all.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's also and and it's definitely again to those sort of findings, Benji, that you know, you hear them coming through time and time again through this conversation with Ross.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm conscious of time, and I just thought I would invite each of you to share any other final thoughts, tips um for marketers who are desperately trying to get their businesses to think to get this on the agenda better or to help tell their story better.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so again, congrats to you, Ross, for all that you've achieved in this regard.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's been a huge piece of work, which I have huge admiration for, and clearly you're getting the results.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um thank you for being so open about how you've achieved it for marketers more broadly.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um I just wonder whether you had any final um nuggets of wisdom and maybe Benji, anything else you think from the research that we haven't quite captured or covered, and then and then we'll wrap this up.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, from my point of view, I'm just going to summarize with some of the points that I've reiterated near time.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_02: Authenticity, brands built from authentic brands built from the inside out.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: Don't forget that.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: That's so, so important.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: And truly delivering on it.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: When you're looking at propositions, you've got two levers.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_02: You've got the dialing down and the dialing up.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: Don't just accept that it's always a dialing down from a marketing perspective.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_02: Challenge the business to dial up certain elements as well.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, that's you can get some really big wins from that.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, senior buying, perhaps not surprisingly because I've mentioned it so often, is fundamental in terms of delivering it.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_02: Without it, you you you know you're you're on a very, very challenging uh trajectory, I think.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_02: Those would be the three for me.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: Terrific.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to repeat uh what Ross has already said.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I I think I think it's hard to be an investment marketer at the moment.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: You are expected to be so many things within your business that this is another thing to suddenly be an expert in.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: But that's the game.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: You kind of have to be an expert in it.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think sustainability is inextricably entwined into your brand now and will remain so.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to understand your business and you have to understand the context of sustainability and what's happening, whether that be at a thematic or a um a regulatory or a kind of direction of travel.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: So you need to be able to look at your own business and think about the stakeholders that it is beholden to.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: Its employees, the communities, the environment, and what those impacts are and how you think about what the business is trying to achieve.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because at its heart, investment is a good thing.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: It can support good causes and do great things.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes we lose that a little bit, I think, in our industry.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: But you run the risk of being inauthentic if you're trying to fast track and create campaigns and content without truly understanding that.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not saying that's easy, but that's just kind of what goes to the territory.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: And the other thing is, do you truly understand your audience?
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: And we've been saying this for 10 years, haven't we?
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: Marketers, do you go out and see clients?
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: Do you talk to your sales teams and do you genuinely understand your audience?
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: But it's more critical now than everything if the data is showing us that the criteria those individual investor looks group groups look for are so different and nuanced.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: You have to understand them.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: There is no way beyond that.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then you need to build the user journeys and the personas and deliver content to them that fit those differing requirements.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's quite a lot of work, and some of it's not very glamorous, but but it all has to be done.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, Ross, a lot of the work you guys have done has been in the background, beavering away, hasn't it?
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: It hasn't been glossy advertising and showcasing stuff, it's just been getting it right in the background and working either internally or externally with the right people who know enough about the subject to drive that forward.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I think those two things both relate to our responsibility as to what we understand as marketing.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess to that point around the criteria and nuances from investor type to investor type, an invitation to anybody if they want to have that data, get that insight, um, please do get in touch.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: We'll happily share that if you want to just check that it's your understanding already, even.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so please do um reach out, no problem at all, and that's sharing.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um thank you both again, Ross, Benji.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: Really, really enjoyable conversation.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think hopefully lots for people to take away.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I really feel we've kind of answered how to sort of build sustainability credentials in your brand.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you both very, very much.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.