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44. Francesca Mason Boring on Ancestral Wisdom & Healing in Family Constellations · Constellations and all that...

• 0:00
  Tracy Cartwright: And welcome to Constellations and all that.
• 0:02
  Tracy Cartwright: I'm your host, Tracy Cartwright, and together we will be exploring the world of family constellations with facilitators for and clients from around the world, looking at different perspectives and experiences in the work, having a cup of tea, and just chatting with some friends around their experiences in constellations.
• 0:19
  Tracy Cartwright: We'd love for you to join us.
• 0:21
  Tracy Cartwright: I hope that you enjoy this series as much as I have loved making it.
• 0:27
  Tracy Cartwright: Hi everyone, and welcome to Constellations and all that.
• 0:31
  Tracy Cartwright: Today I have the utmost pleasure of chatting with Francesca Mason Boring, and this is a real fan girl moment for me.
• 0:38
  Tracy Cartwright: So I'm so excited that you're here to, to have this conversation and yeah, share your wisdom and, and spend some time with me.
• 0:46
  Tracy Cartwright: That's, I'd love for you to introduce yourself for the listeners and the viewers that, um, aren't as familiar with you.
• 0:52
  Francesca Mason Boring: Well, thank you and I really appreciate your work.
• 0:56
  Francesca Mason Boring: I had the opportunity to meet you in, uh, Australia and got to see you again in Portugal, and I've actually been sort of not stalking you, but watching your work and, and really appreciate all that you've done and the commitment that you have to systems constellation and the way that you open doors for people.
• 1:17
  Francesca Mason Boring: So, um.
• 1:18
  Francesca Mason Boring: I'm having a fan girl moment myself, and I really, I thank you for the invitation and the opportunity and um, yeah.
• 1:26
  Francesca Mason Boring: So I am one of your admirers and of course, and I think that that's one of the things about this work that somehow it really invites people.
• 1:34
  Francesca Mason Boring: To be their full self.
• 1:35
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so we're able to see people in a really different light, really in a authentic, nurturing, helpful, strong.
• 1:45
  Francesca Mason Boring: Um, there's something really dynamic about what comes through with people when they're involved in Systems Constellation, when they're doing a constellation.
• 1:53
  Francesca Mason Boring: So I've enjoyed listening to the podcasts and.
• 1:57
  Francesca Mason Boring: I've been really fortunate, so blessed.
• 2:00
  Francesca Mason Boring: Um, the constellation work came to me in the middle of nowhere.
• 2:04
  Francesca Mason Boring: Um, now a little bit more than a quarter of a century ago, I just began work at an integrative health clinic in a very small town.
• 2:13
  Francesca Mason Boring: Um, at that time, I don't remember how much less, but it was the biggest city for two and a half hours, and it was less than 3000 people.
• 2:21
  Francesca Mason Boring: So, um, the town that I live in, Evans.
• 2:24
  Francesca Mason Boring: Um, had only a post office.
• 2:26
  Francesca Mason Boring: There was, um, one store, one post office.
• 2:29
  Francesca Mason Boring: I was very rural and somehow this native Victoria Schnabel met the director of this really innovative integrative health clinic that had just been born.
• 2:39
  Francesca Mason Boring: In Colville, Washington.
• 2:41
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so we came from different places and, um, Dr. Lon Hatfield, who was the director and one of the innovators of the clinic, um, actually met Sne Victoria Schnabel on a train.
• 2:51
  Francesca Mason Boring: And he was in Germany showing his wife where he, one of the places that he had gone to college in, and they chatted and he asked her, would you be willing to come to call the Washington?
• 3:00
  Francesca Mason Boring: And she was a facilitator.
• 3:02
  Francesca Mason Boring: One of the.
• 3:03
  Francesca Mason Boring: A few really primary women facilitators.
• 3:07
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so she said, of course I'll come.
• 3:10
  Francesca Mason Boring: And I think there's no way she could have had any idea of like how, how much travel would be involved and how remote.
• 3:17
  Francesca Mason Boring: But she came and, um, provided a training, uh, went over two years time and also extended, um, her commitment here by also.
• 3:28
  Francesca Mason Boring: Offering a training to a local, um, native American community.
• 3:32
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so I was very fortunate to be able to participate in that as well.
• 3:36
  Francesca Mason Boring: So it was my own family is, um, I come from immigrants, refugees, and on my mother's side, I'm Native American.
• 3:45
  Francesca Mason Boring: I'm from the Shoshone tribe, which is a nomadic tribe in the Western United States.
• 3:51
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so, um.
• 3:53
  Francesca Mason Boring: I have family that's involved in language preservation and tribal council.
• 3:56
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so, uh, have had family very involved in different aspects of tribe and culture.
• 4:03
  Francesca Mason Boring: My family participates in,
• 4:05
  Tracy Cartwright: um,
• 4:06
  Francesca Mason Boring: we call them powwows, which is, um, basically a prayer and a coming together a social gathering of native people who dance and belief is that the, that the dancing in community much in the way that I view constellation work is a kind of a prayer.
• 4:22
  Francesca Mason Boring: A communal prayer for the wellbeing of the land and the people, all of our families.
• 4:26
  Francesca Mason Boring: So, yeah.
• 4:27
  Francesca Mason Boring: So for me, from the beginning, what arose was that there was so much overlap.
• 4:32
  Francesca Mason Boring: In my worldview between constellation work and indigenous traditions.
• 4:37
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so I found early that I was very limited in my exposure and I was a little bit ethnocentric.
• 4:44
  Francesca Mason Boring: I thought it was only parallel and echoing Shoshone traditions or um, native American traditions.
• 4:52
  Francesca Mason Boring: But as I was so fortunate to interface with other cultures and meet people from other indigenous backgrounds, I saw that there really was a kind of a universal indigenous.
• 5:02
  Francesca Mason Boring: And then it expanded to understanding that Hellinger, um, when he went to China, for instance, people spoke to him about this work, actually representing the dao.
• 5:11
  Francesca Mason Boring: And then I also was fortunate to meet a elder in Switzerland, wonderful Swiss guy, uh, in his eighties, who originally was being trained by one of his uncles or great uncles to be involved in healing, singing songs to plants.
• 5:27
  Francesca Mason Boring: Basically being in conversation with plants about what they would be able to provide.
• 5:32
  Francesca Mason Boring: So the more I looked and the more I studied, I found that this indigenous knowing is really something that belongs to all of us.
• 5:41
  Francesca Mason Boring: We all come from these roots and family systems, constellation and Systems Constellation is the place where I have felt really at home and not shamed by modernity in saying, this is how we're made.
• 5:56
  Francesca Mason Boring: We're all connected and we all have this capacity for knowing.
• 5:59
  Francesca Mason Boring: So yeah.
• 6:00
  Francesca Mason Boring: So that's in a nutshell.
• 6:02
  Francesca Mason Boring: Maybe it's a start.
• 6:03
  Tracy Cartwright: That's so beautiful.
• 6:04
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 6:05
  Tracy Cartwright: I always share that.
• 6:06
  Tracy Cartwright: I know they're howling a board.
• 6:07
  Tracy Cartwright: The work through in the, the, the version of, um, family and systemic conservations in the late eighties, early nineties, around the year, it was like brewing.
• 6:16
  Tracy Cartwright: But it's ancient me isn't it?
• 6:18
  Tracy Cartwright: Like it's there, it's been around for, since the people of our fight, the original, our original ancestors.
• 6:25
  Tracy Cartwright: I think it's, it's morphed and evolved and it was brought through in a way that, in a modern way for us to understand, but it's remembering of who we are and what is deep inside us.
• 6:34
  Francesca Mason Boring: Yeah, I really appreciate that.
• 6:36
  Francesca Mason Boring: Now have shared that I think a couple of the things that, that really help us to be aware that we are so connected is the, the funny thing that happens when you're in a grocery store and you don't even know why, but you turn your head and someone is looking at you.
• 6:52
  Tracy Cartwright: And
• 6:52
  Francesca Mason Boring: so it doesn't matter how far apart you are, how many, how much distance, there's this, whatever the mechanism is, there's this way in which.
• 7:01
  Francesca Mason Boring: We have this ability to know where are we connected?
• 7:05
  Francesca Mason Boring: And the other part that I think is always fun is if you've been thinking about someone and you kind of can't get them off your mind, and then you run into them or you pick up the phone and they're on the other end of the line.
• 7:16
  Francesca Mason Boring: So we really do have all of these things, but there's a.
• 7:19
  Francesca Mason Boring: A book that I always recommend to people.
• 7:21
  Francesca Mason Boring: It's called, um, the Gift of Fear.
• 7:24
  Francesca Mason Boring: And it's this wonderful book that's written actually by a retired detective had this most amazing in his long career.
• 7:32
  Francesca Mason Boring: He had this experience that there were these cases that he thought, this is, this is weird.
• 7:38
  Francesca Mason Boring: So he gathered everything together and he pulled out the data and the case histories.
• 7:43
  Francesca Mason Boring: And what he found was many people, many, many, many people, when they have been assaulted.
• 7:48
  Francesca Mason Boring: Or you know, God forbid they've been raped or something like this.
• 7:52
  Francesca Mason Boring: Many of those people, they shared that they had had a bad feeling, right?
• 7:58
  Francesca Mason Boring: Yeah.
• 7:58
  Francesca Mason Boring: That in their gut there was a bad feeling, but they were looking for with their rational mind, they were looking for some evidence of why it was that they felt in their body some threat or some knowing.
• 8:12
  Francesca Mason Boring: Something was wrong.
• 8:13
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so I actually have given it to all of my nieces and sisters and I recommended it in every training because there are a couple of things.
• 8:21
  Francesca Mason Boring: One is that it really reinforces that we've been conditioned to step away from the way in which we know, and the example that he gives is how early this happens when someone, a child falls as a toddler and they start to cry because they skin their knee and.
• 8:39
  Francesca Mason Boring: Automatic response is, oh, it doesn't hurt.
• 8:42
  Francesca Mason Boring: Right?
• 8:42
  Francesca Mason Boring: It doesn't hurt.
• 8:44
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so it's, we have all of these different things that we do and have been doing to condition people to ignore this knowing that we have that is so present when we do systems Constellation.
• 8:57
  Francesca Mason Boring: So I just love that book.
• 8:58
  Francesca Mason Boring: It's very spooky and bit weird, but, um, but it's, I think in every language on the planet, and it's been actually in print for quite a number of years, but it's So who, who's the author?
• 9:10
  Francesca Mason Boring: Oh gosh, I'll remember that too in the morning.
• 9:13
  Tracy Cartwright: Well, you can flick me a link.
• 9:14
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 9:14
  Francesca Mason Boring: But it's definitely called The Gift of Fear that sticks in Way.
• 9:17
  Francesca Mason Boring: Oh, the Gift
• 9:18
  Tracy Cartwright: of Fear.
• 9:18
  Tracy Cartwright: I, I write down here the fear of knowing.
• 9:20
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, oh, whoa.
• 9:21
  Francesca Mason Boring: Well, similar.
• 9:23
  Francesca Mason Boring: Yeah.
• 9:23
  Francesca Mason Boring: Okay.
• 9:24
  Francesca Mason Boring: Let's of get that right.
• 9:26
  Francesca Mason Boring: Yeah.
• 9:26
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so it's just this, that's the emotion that he's of course, focused on because as a detective, he was so involved in things, you know, like assault.
• 9:33
  Francesca Mason Boring: But, but I love that it really translates in general, you know, to really looking at all the ways, um, that we've been conditioned not to honor how much we know.
• 9:44
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 9:45
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 9:45
  Tracy Cartwright: I, I sometimes say to people, you know, in this work.
• 9:49
  Tracy Cartwright: 'cause when they say, I dunno that I could do this.
• 9:51
  Tracy Cartwright: You know, I dunno that I could step into the field and walk into a constellation and I say, well, have you ever been to a party?
• 9:56
  Tracy Cartwright: And you've walked in and you've gone, oh, that corner over there.
• 9:59
  Tracy Cartwright: I don't, you know, that area of the room.
• 10:01
  Tracy Cartwright: I don't think I wanna go over there, but hey, I'm really drawn over here.
• 10:04
  Tracy Cartwright: So it's kind of, you know, there's that knowing you gonna listen to that.
• 10:09
  Francesca Mason Boring: Yeah.
• 10:09
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 10:10
  Francesca Mason Boring: I
• 10:10
  Tracy Cartwright: like
• 10:10
  Francesca Mason Boring: that example
• 10:11
  Tracy Cartwright: a lot.
• 10:12
  Tracy Cartwright: I like that.
• 10:13
  Tracy Cartwright: Okay.
• 10:14
  Tracy Cartwright: Uh, we, we were having a little.
• 10:17
  Tracy Cartwright: A little conversation before we, I pushed record and I'm just admiring the view behind you.
• 10:22
  Tracy Cartwright: So the, those that can see this recording, there's a beautiful, um, image behind Francesca of some deer and a bird house with a bird sitting on top of it.
• 10:31
  Tracy Cartwright: Some bushes and some plants and trees and hills and a little bit from, from your back porch.
• 10:38
  Francesca Mason Boring: Yes.
• 10:39
  Francesca Mason Boring: Yeah.
• 10:40
  Francesca Mason Boring: I'm very rural and I've just been, um, we just, uh.
• 10:43
  Francesca Mason Boring: Dug our potatoes and picked our tomatoes and harvested garlic.
• 10:48
  Francesca Mason Boring: And, um, so it's something that really grounds me that I, I really appreciate being out and gardening and stepping out the back door to get something for dinner.
• 10:59
  Francesca Mason Boring: And,
• 11:00
  Tracy Cartwright: and
• 11:00
  Francesca Mason Boring: it's, yeah, it's very quiet and it's also humbling, um, because actually the, the animals that are in the picture, because not all countries have them, but those are elk and they're actually about the size of a horse.
• 11:13
  Francesca Mason Boring: They're really quite large and we have bear here and Cougar.
• 11:18
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so there is something about, you know, in Constellation work when we talk about I'm, I'm, I'm the big one or I'm the little one.
• 11:26
  Francesca Mason Boring: There's something about being on this land that really helps me to know my place.
• 11:31
  Francesca Mason Boring: It really is When I'm here, there's no question.
• 11:35
  Francesca Mason Boring: I'm the little one because if there's a cougar in the yard.
• 11:38
  Francesca Mason Boring: I am not the big one.
• 11:39
  Francesca Mason Boring: If there's a bear in the yard, I'm not the big one.
• 11:42
  Francesca Mason Boring: I'm the little one.
• 11:43
  Francesca Mason Boring: Mm-hmm.
• 11:43
  Francesca Mason Boring: So, um, and, and the land is so large and so present, um, that I love that it's very, it's grounding, it's nurturing and it's also humbling.
• 11:55
  Francesca Mason Boring: So it really is kind of a mentor for, for always, you know, trying to be respectful, trying to be aware of what is my right place.
• 12:03
  Francesca Mason Boring: And, um, I think that.
• 12:05
  Francesca Mason Boring: Family constellation especially, although that's one of the things that sometimes people are a little bit reactive to.
• 12:12
  Francesca Mason Boring: Well, I can't be the little one because I've taken care of my big sister all her life.
• 12:16
  Francesca Mason Boring: I'm the one that does all the work.
• 12:17
  Francesca Mason Boring: Or, but when we find that, like in the family system, when we can really say, oh, this is where life brought me, you know, that's not a better, less than, greater than, it's just life decided that I would be born here.
• 12:33
  Francesca Mason Boring: In this system, in this sequence.
• 12:35
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so it's not charged.
• 12:37
  Francesca Mason Boring: It's just like that beautiful phrase that we all know, acknowledging what is, and then what I love is how when people have their right place, when they feel comfortable and, and really can move their body in the truth of where life brought them into the world, then they're not trying as much to climb over everybody.
• 12:57
  Francesca Mason Boring: So in their own personal relationships and their own employment, there's.
• 13:02
  Francesca Mason Boring: Much less of that jostling for position because they really come.
• 13:07
  Francesca Mason Boring: And I think that's the part that I'm just so amazed about how people presence themselves when they've been involved in family systems constellation.
• 13:17
  Francesca Mason Boring: So there is just a certainty and honoring, and that goes with them everywhere, and you can really feel it in people.
• 13:25
  Francesca Mason Boring: Or I, I sense I think that I can feel it in people and it's just beautiful.
• 13:30
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 13:30
  Tracy Cartwright: I think the work allows us to find our place in a way that we've maybe never experienced in our human experience so far.
• 13:38
  Tracy Cartwright: Right.
• 13:38
  Tracy Cartwright: Especially if, if we are feeling lost or disconnected, and obviously with those entanglements that, um, we're able to reveal in this week as well.
• 13:46
  Tracy Cartwright: So, yeah.
• 13:48
  Tracy Cartwright: And it's showing up.
• 13:49
  Tracy Cartwright: I think another way I describe it is also others receive us differently.
• 13:53
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 13:54
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 13:55
  Tracy Cartwright: There's been that shift within us.
• 13:56
  Tracy Cartwright: You know, we, we obviously receive others differently, but they receive us differently.
• 14:00
  Tracy Cartwright: There can be quite a, a softening in it, in the ease within the system.
• 14:03
  Tracy Cartwright: And
• 14:03
  Francesca Mason Boring: I think it's really grounding.
• 14:05
  Francesca Mason Boring: I think it's really, um, something that grounds people.
• 14:08
  Francesca Mason Boring: And I think also just that, that bigger view, that bigger perspective.
• 14:13
  Francesca Mason Boring: So, uh, someone said, and I really loved when they.
• 14:17
  Francesca Mason Boring: I wish I could remember who said it because I'm always listening to as many facilitators as I can.
• 14:22
  Francesca Mason Boring: Um, because languaging is so unique and how one person languages something might be like a context or a phrase that would never come out of my own paradigm.
• 14:34
  Francesca Mason Boring: So I really try to experience as many facilitators as I can, um, because the way that the language really helps me.
• 14:42
  Francesca Mason Boring: To be able to expand in my learning and in my facilitation, both.
• 14:47
  Francesca Mason Boring: But I love when somebody said in systems Constellation there, because what we're really looking at is something that is a function in the system.
• 14:55
  Francesca Mason Boring: So when someone has, um, really had horrific, um, behaviors for, for instance a child that's really, really acts out.
• 15:06
  Francesca Mason Boring: Outrageously.
• 15:07
  Francesca Mason Boring: And when you look in the constellation and see that the two parents are not connecting, and so it becomes really the function of that child to pull them together and have them look at them and their behavior because they seem not to be able to come together to look at each other.
• 15:26
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so that really naughty behavior, we could say it's a dysfunction, but when we do a constellation so often we'll see that.
• 15:34
  Francesca Mason Boring: That child, unbeknownst to them unconsciously, they really are serving this function of holding this couple together, keeping this family together.
• 15:43
  Francesca Mason Boring: That's, yeah.
• 15:43
  Francesca Mason Boring: Yeah.
• 15:43
  Francesca Mason Boring: It's just a really interesting, when I heard that, it seemed as though for a while e everything had a, like a spotlight on it when I would say, oh my gosh, this is another dysfunction that's serving the system in some way.
• 15:57
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 15:58
  Tracy Cartwright: So,
• 15:58
  Francesca Mason Boring: yeah.
• 15:58
  Tracy Cartwright: Amazing.
• 16:00
  Tracy Cartwright: I, you've reminded me of, um, of someone who came with lupus.
• 16:04
  Tracy Cartwright: Had lupus that had, they were actually in a wheelchair.
• 16:08
  Tracy Cartwright: And when we went back through, through the, um, her experience and when it first showed up was when her parents split up.
• 16:15
  Tracy Cartwright: What it did was it kept them connected and communicated because of her being that common and common denominator in it.
• 16:23
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 16:24
  Tracy Cartwright: And she acknowledged that.
• 16:24
  Tracy Cartwright: She said, that's all I wanted.
• 16:25
  Tracy Cartwright: That's all I wanted, was my parents to be together.
• 16:28
  Francesca Mason Boring: Yeah.
• 16:29
  Francesca Mason Boring: Well, and that's the, the other part that I really appreciate is that.
• 16:34
  Francesca Mason Boring: When we start to look at Constellation, it's so different from having a focus on pathology because we're really looking at what happens in the system and it over and over again.
• 16:47
  Francesca Mason Boring: It's a surprise that really, no matter how terrible it looks, what really is at the seed is, is love.
• 16:54
  Francesca Mason Boring: Um, it might be misdirected, but that there really is some kind of love.
• 16:59
  Francesca Mason Boring: And I had a read an interview where Hellinger said, and I'm just paraphrasing, I don't wanna misquote him, but, but it was essentially, he said that when he facilitated what he did was he tried to find the love and then do everything he could to defend it.
• 17:16
  Francesca Mason Boring: Mm-hmm.
• 17:16
  Francesca Mason Boring: And I thought that was really interesting because, because there are times that.
• 17:22
  Francesca Mason Boring: Our definition of what's happening is so far from love, but if we really look at the constellation and if we can bear to see it there, there really is love there.
• 17:33
  Francesca Mason Boring: So, but yeah, but that's become another interest that I have.
• 17:37
  Francesca Mason Boring: Um, how much it can sometimes be a challenge to really acknowledge and make space for the love, even as a facilitator.
• 17:45
  Francesca Mason Boring: So, um, when we see something that, you know, we can only see the atrocity.
• 17:50
  Francesca Mason Boring: Yeah, and we become like really, um, you know, feel a righteous anger or a righteous justification to judge.
• 17:58
  Francesca Mason Boring: But if we can put that aside, which is not easy, or perhaps hold it on one hand and then with the other hand, look and see where the love is, even in those really, um, terrible dynamics.
• 18:11
  Francesca Mason Boring: It's, uh, something that I've become aware can be really a challenge.
• 18:16
  Francesca Mason Boring: So, and, and
• 18:17
  Tracy Cartwright: you've just written a book about love.
• 18:19
  Francesca Mason Boring: I, I did.
• 18:20
  Francesca Mason Boring: It's, it's just a little, um, reflections are winter is winter, winter, so we're in the snow and sometimes the roads are impassable.
• 18:28
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so one of the things that happens when I facilitate a lot of times if there's something new or if there's something that I really haven't fully.
• 18:36
  Francesca Mason Boring: Found a, a place for it.
• 18:38
  Francesca Mason Boring: I don't completely understand it.
• 18:40
  Francesca Mason Boring: There are a lot of times that I'll make notes, um, after a workshop or during a training, just as a form of reflection to try to get a little bit more clarity.
• 18:49
  Francesca Mason Boring: But so often what happens is then in the winter, um.
• 18:52
  Francesca Mason Boring: When, you know, I, I can only bake so much.
• 18:55
  Francesca Mason Boring: So then I'll, you know, come into the computer and kind of pull those notes up and lo and behold, some of them actually connect to each other and help me to, to have a bit more clarity.
• 19:04
  Francesca Mason Boring: So one of the things that just seemed to be reappearing and reappearing was these places where I could see that it was really a challenge to make a big space for the love.
• 19:15
  Francesca Mason Boring: So, for instance, um, one that's just, um, really painful of course is if, if a child has been sexually molested by a parent to know that that is, it is an atrocity, it is wrong, there is injustice in it, and a child still has a right to love that parent.
• 19:33
  Francesca Mason Boring: And the parent still has in all of the, um, confusion and imbalance all of the terrible things that they're still.
• 19:43
  Francesca Mason Boring: Very often is love that's misdirected or, um, that, that's a component in that whole dynamic as well.
• 19:51
  Francesca Mason Boring: So I think for facilitators and participants being able to really make a big space for that love.
• 19:59
  Francesca Mason Boring: And even in example of, uh, some cases where I saw, um, war criminals, for instance, um, people that had really, um, committed atrocities.
• 20:10
  Francesca Mason Boring: They sometimes were amazing parents.
• 20:13
  Francesca Mason Boring: Their children had no knowledge of their day-to-day activities and their child was a respite, and that relationship was a respite from their, what they were doing.
• 20:24
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so in those cases, I saw times when there was really a tension where it was difficult for people in the group or even the facilitator to really somehow find the generosity, um, to welcome the love that was there and honor the love that was there.
• 20:39
  Francesca Mason Boring: So it was just, um, I think that we're always growing in the work and so it was kind of a surprise that at this juncture, um, there were just these places where I saw that there could really be a tension in these places that are really horrific and still love is there somewhere very often.
• 21:01
  Francesca Mason Boring: How much of a struggle it could be for, for the person who is doing their work, for the people in the circle, for the facilitator to give space to that.
• 21:10
  Francesca Mason Boring: Totally understand that.
• 21:11
  Tracy Cartwright: Absolutely.
• 21:12
  Tracy Cartwright: From having experienced it personally myself, but also from, and witnessing it in the field, you know, and it's not an easy thing for people to get their head around the hearts around.
• 21:20
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, but on a, so, on a deeper level, right?
• 21:22
  Tracy Cartwright: Their soul is pulling this.
• 21:24
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, and this is what the, the larger system is bringing back into balance.
• 21:29
  Tracy Cartwright: And when we can put our, when we can put our mind aside, our analytical, this is not right.
• 21:37
  Tracy Cartwright: And like you say, righteous outrage and all that aside.
• 21:40
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 21:40
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 21:40
  Tracy Cartwright: Feel what's underneath it all.
• 21:41
  Tracy Cartwright: Feel that actual, that there is love underneath them even, even if it's.
• 21:46
  Tracy Cartwright: Mixed up and funky on the top.
• 21:48
  Francesca Mason Boring: Well, and I also became aware of how we really, in a way, like our society in the moment is very, um, focused on trauma and it, it's a good thing.
• 22:00
  Francesca Mason Boring: A lot of things come in terms of being able to identify traumas and resolve traumas.
• 22:04
  Francesca Mason Boring: But I also started to see that, um, that it was sometimes.
• 22:10
  Francesca Mason Boring: Creating a deficit in terms of the amount of, what do they call it?
• 22:14
  Francesca Mason Boring: Attention allocation that could be given to resources and, and love.
• 22:20
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so, um, yeah, it was something else that I, I started engaging people in an exercise, which was really fun.
• 22:29
  Francesca Mason Boring: And for a lot of people it was surprising.
• 22:31
  Francesca Mason Boring: Um, a couple of times people were, um, I think like.
• 22:36
  Francesca Mason Boring: What sometimes happens that people are a little startled about what shows up.
• 22:41
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so it's just simply inviting people to share with another person in the group, or even to just do a, a meditation or just a reflection.
• 22:51
  Francesca Mason Boring: What are the love stories in your family?
• 22:53
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so we sometimes know the horror stories we have like this, uh, litany of.
• 23:00
  Francesca Mason Boring: You know, this one did a dastardly deed over here and, and this person was, you know, didn't have integrity or, um, this one was a robber.
• 23:08
  Francesca Mason Boring: This one, all of those different things that come up, but it's been really interesting when people spend time actually thinking about the love stories.
• 23:17
  Francesca Mason Boring: And if there are none, then we know somehow the system really didn't hold that in, in a treasured way and didn't share it, didn't.
• 23:27
  Francesca Mason Boring: Feel that it was essential or could tell people out of love again, the cautionary tales, um, that would prevent them from loving, but forgot to tell them the numerous stories.
• 23:38
  Francesca Mason Boring: I mean, we're all here, we all still, you know, that's thousands of generations of sex.
• 23:42
  Francesca Mason Boring: People, you know, having relationships with each other and having the, you know, the volatility of love and the complexity of love, but definitely caring for each other.
• 23:53
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so that somehow in some family systems, people are, have arrived in a place where those stories have been forgotten or weren't told.
• 24:02
  Francesca Mason Boring: And then sometimes people go and actually look at photographs and they can see it.
• 24:06
  Francesca Mason Boring: They didn't hear about it, it wasn't told, but they're surprised.
• 24:10
  Francesca Mason Boring: Yeah.
• 24:10
  Francesca Mason Boring: It's there.
• 24:11
  Francesca Mason Boring: The way they're holding each other's hands or the way they're smiling or looking at each other.
• 24:16
  Francesca Mason Boring: Um, there might have been terrible things that happened or people became financially embarrassed or someone died in war or all those things that happened in life, but that there also were these love stories too.
• 24:28
  Tracy Cartwright: That's really great.
• 24:29
  Tracy Cartwright: That's very cool.
• 24:30
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 24:30
  Tracy Cartwright: Would you like to share a bit, um,'cause you've written quite a few books.
• 24:34
  Tracy Cartwright: I thought all, so I'm very grateful.
• 24:37
  Tracy Cartwright: And, and you do a lot of work around, well, I mean, I'm just paraphrasing here, but, um, nature, nature is, is a big theme for you.
• 24:45
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 24:45
  Tracy Cartwright: Is there any, what would you like to share around that?
• 24:47
  Francesca Mason Boring: What is there?
• 24:48
  Francesca Mason Boring: Oh, thank you so much.
• 24:50
  Francesca Mason Boring: Well, nature Constellations, um, the book that I, that was released before Love and Family Systems Constellation is the Nature Constellation Handbook.
• 25:00
  Francesca Mason Boring: And, uh, I wrote it in such a way that my hope was.
• 25:03
  Francesca Mason Boring: That facilitators could actually just use it, the, some templates.
• 25:07
  Francesca Mason Boring: And it also, uh, I was very fortunate because I had some facilitators who are really using nature in constellations or using constellations to look at nature.
• 25:19
  Francesca Mason Boring: And, um, and then I also, uh, included the voices of a lot of newer facilitators who were really honest about the places in which they.
• 25:30
  Francesca Mason Boring: Sort of were stepping in and had some hesitation or disbelief or I, they were just so incredibly transparent and then sharing what their experiences were beyond that hesitation.
• 25:41
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so I, I feel really hopeful and excited.
• 25:45
  Francesca Mason Boring: One of the things is that, um, that we can use Systems.
• 25:48
  Francesca Mason Boring: Constellation Nature is full of a number of systems.
• 25:53
  Francesca Mason Boring: Um, we can use Systems Constellation to understand those systems.
• 25:57
  Francesca Mason Boring: So as a result, people who are botanists or foresters or biologists can actually be introduced to using systems Constellation as, as another lens through which they can begin to understand dynamics in the natural world.
• 26:11
  Francesca Mason Boring: And there have been some things that have been just, uh, astounding in terms of being able to actually participate in and embody those conversations.
• 26:21
  Francesca Mason Boring: So now there are a number of wonderful books that are coming out, um, that help us to understand mycelium and the way they actually the biggest communications network in the world.
• 26:31
  Francesca Mason Boring: And then trees, different research.
• 26:34
  Francesca Mason Boring: Uh, one that was, uh, kind of a little bit, well, I don't think it would say sad entirely, but something that was unexpected was finding that, for instance, pine trees.
• 26:43
  Francesca Mason Boring: A lot of places where they do reforestation, they bring the trees in from the nursery, plant them.
• 26:49
  Francesca Mason Boring: So they're not the progeny of the bigger seed trees that they're planting underneath.
• 26:54
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so what they found was that when there's a big seed tree, a big pine tree that drops the cones and the babies come from that, the pine tree that has is surrounded by its own progeny, actually takes fewer minerals and fewer nutrients out of the soil.
• 27:11
  Tracy Cartwright: Wow.
• 27:11
  Francesca Mason Boring: When they have all these replants that are not their babies, they are not as.
• 27:17
  Francesca Mason Boring: Delicate in how they approach, how much they take, and so that helps us to really start to wonder about when we're really looking for reforestation in the healthiest way to have really healthy, healthy seedlings somehow.
• 27:31
  Francesca Mason Boring: Best case scenario would be that those seedlings are actually the progeny of the big trees that.
• 27:37
  Francesca Mason Boring: In the area that they're planted.
• 27:39
  Francesca Mason Boring: So I'm really grateful that science and, um, botany biology are kind of in parallel discovering things actually that all of us knew before modernity, that we knew that there could be times that we were distressed and would sit outside and the wind would come and brush our cheek, and we felt we took it personally.
• 28:04
  Francesca Mason Boring: We felt like it was a soothing, gentle, personal movement or gesture.
• 28:09
  Francesca Mason Boring: Mm-hmm.
• 28:10
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so in Constellation we see that that is the case.
• 28:13
  Francesca Mason Boring: That everything, um, just as in most, uh, wisdom traditions worldwide, that everything is willing to be in conversation and they are in conversation.
• 28:23
  Francesca Mason Boring: It's just a matter of us, uh, being willing to, to be in the same conversation
• 28:28
  Tracy Cartwright: as, as you were sharing that.
• 28:29
  Tracy Cartwright: So I was like.
• 28:31
  Tracy Cartwright: Noticing my dog came in here as you were sharing all this and there's a, um, I'll pick it up and show you.
• 28:37
  Tracy Cartwright: I have some gum leaves, Uhhuh.
• 28:40
  Tracy Cartwright: 'cause I like to use them.
• 28:41
  Tracy Cartwright: And when I do sound work, the leaves and the rustling sound.
• 28:45
  Tracy Cartwright: And this is a bit that's broken off obviously.
• 28:47
  Tracy Cartwright: And as you were talking, my dog's sitting there, she's got a beard.
• 28:49
  Tracy Cartwright: So cute.
• 28:51
  Tracy Cartwright: Put blonde bed and this is stuck in her bed.
• 28:53
  Tracy Cartwright: It's almost like she was, I'm a tree.
• 28:55
  Tracy Cartwright: I'm a tree.
• 28:56
  Francesca Mason Boring: And I mean, that's another, I'm so happy that you mentioned that because.
• 28:59
  Francesca Mason Boring: I probably wouldn't have said it, but, um, there was a facilitator in Canada, uh, by the name of Edward Beltran.
• 29:06
  Francesca Mason Boring: Um, and he is a veterinarian and for almost 30 years, um, he ended up, had a private practice and, um, built a veterinary hospital and he actually used Constellation as one of the modalities with pets.
• 29:19
  Francesca Mason Boring: Mm-hmm.
• 29:19
  Francesca Mason Boring: So one of the things that we can, um, do is constellations with pets.
• 29:24
  Francesca Mason Boring: And it's really helpful.
• 29:26
  Francesca Mason Boring: I mean, they in some ways sometimes can be speaking about our system, sort of out of their loyalty to us, bring to our attention something within our own system.
• 29:37
  Francesca Mason Boring: Absolutely.
• 29:37
  Francesca Mason Boring: Well, she's actually jumped on my knee.
• 29:39
  Francesca Mason Boring: Hello.
• 29:40
  Tracy Cartwright: This is the first time she's done this.
• 29:41
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh my God.
• 29:42
  Francesca Mason Boring: This is part of her conversation too.
• 29:44
  Francesca Mason Boring: For sure.
• 29:45
  Francesca Mason Boring: Absolutely.
• 29:46
  Francesca Mason Boring: Yeah, because we see, you know, for instance, at times when people have had a, a dog for 16 years or they've had a horse for 30 years, that's an incredibly deep connection.
• 29:56
  Francesca Mason Boring: There are a number of times when people really are bereft.
• 30:00
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so the kind of rituals that we have in Constellation to, to say goodbye and to say thank you, um, those.
• 30:08
  Francesca Mason Boring: Can really support when someone has, you know, this so dear, um, being that's a part of their life and a part of their whole family system.
• 30:17
  Francesca Mason Boring: Yeah.
• 30:17
  Francesca Mason Boring: So I'm so happy because it did give me the chance to, to mention that.
• 30:22
  Francesca Mason Boring: Um, I think that's one of the things when people know, for instance, there was a veterinarian who used constellations for 30 years.
• 30:29
  Francesca Mason Boring: That, in a way brings a kind of a gravitas, so we know it's not.
• 30:33
  Francesca Mason Boring: That we're diminishing the work at all.
• 30:36
  Francesca Mason Boring: We're really opening the door for another way.
• 30:38
  Francesca Mason Boring: And it also can be, um, that, for instance, a a behavior of hoarding, uh, small dogs in, in the system.
• 30:47
  Francesca Mason Boring: You can sometimes find that that's a representation of a family system where many, uh, children died.
• 30:54
  Francesca Mason Boring: Yeah.
• 30:54
  Francesca Mason Boring: So we had other periods of time where there were pandemics or plagues.
• 30:59
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so, and sometimes in a community.
• 31:01
  Francesca Mason Boring: There would be some kind of pathogen that came and truly, uh, a generation of little ones would, would die.
• 31:09
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so the, the parents, the community, the aunts, the.
• 31:14
  Francesca Mason Boring: Cousins, everyone was so affected.
• 31:16
  Francesca Mason Boring: And, and you can see sometimes where, um, this impulse, uh, for hoarding small dogs in particular is, I just wanna save these little ones.
• 31:27
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so when you look in the family system, there can be these poor souls that really, that was the only wish they had, was this impulse to be able to save these
• 31:39
  Tracy Cartwright: alones.
• 31:40
  Tracy Cartwright: And my mind is ticking over the, this is Lacey.
• 31:43
  Tracy Cartwright: And she is the second dog that I've had come to my life who has been from a litter of, um, pups that she was the first born and that I'm midwifed them into the world.
• 31:56
  Tracy Cartwright: I know.
• 31:57
  Tracy Cartwright: So when she was being born.
• 32:01
  Tracy Cartwright: Her mother was really struggling and my sister called me and said, can you come over?
• 32:04
  Tracy Cartwright: 'cause you know, I do energy work and, and stuff.
• 32:06
  Tracy Cartwright: And, and, and as soon as I put my hands on her mama, the mother's water's broken.
• 32:11
  Tracy Cartwright: I ended up massaging mom's peren and, and bringing them.
• 32:15
  Tracy Cartwright: They're all backwards.
• 32:15
  Tracy Cartwright: You know, there was a whole story to it, but I remember thinking all the last litter of puppies that I helped into the world, I got given the first pup.
• 32:24
  Tracy Cartwright: I remember thinking, um, not obviously straight away, but, well, that's not gonna happen this time.
• 32:29
  Tracy Cartwright: 'cause when this one was being born, I actually had another dog in my life that I'd rehomed.
• 32:34
  Tracy Cartwright: And, um, lo and behold, between that time and the time she was due, she was ready to be, to find a home.
• 32:40
  Tracy Cartwright: This other dog that I'd rehomed did some silly things and ended up having to leave us.
• 32:45
  Tracy Cartwright: But I remember thinking this and so as you are talking about, um, people that are.
• 32:50
  Tracy Cartwright: Dogs.
• 32:51
  Tracy Cartwright: I'm like story in here with Mewing, these little creatures into the world.
• 32:56
  Tracy Cartwright: And you know, my great grandmother was a midwife.
• 32:57
  Tracy Cartwright: I know that.
• 32:58
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh wow.
• 32:59
  Tracy Cartwright: And she lost lots of babies, so.
• 33:01
  Tracy Cartwright: Wow.
• 33:02
  Tracy Cartwright: Wow.
• 33:02
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, and it's interesting 'cause I have actually been speaking to Medoc this morning, who, you know Yeah.
• 33:08
  Tracy Cartwright: And we talked about a little bit, about a few of the things that have Yeah.
• 33:11
  Tracy Cartwright: Like my great-grandmother, the midwife who lost all babies.
• 33:14
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 33:14
  Tracy Cartwright: So I think she's quite present in my field right now.
• 33:18
  Francesca Mason Boring: Yeah.
• 33:18
  Francesca Mason Boring: And it's though all those different opportunities that life brings that that somehow seem to restore some kind of balance that really is sort of ah, yeah, they're, they made it, you know?
• 33:29
  Francesca Mason Boring: Yeah.
• 33:30
  Francesca Mason Boring: These little ones made it.
• 33:31
  Francesca Mason Boring: So, yeah, it's powerful.
• 33:33
  Francesca Mason Boring: It's really powerful.
• 33:35
  Francesca Mason Boring: And, um, I think it's also really important because for some people, um, those relationships with pets are so primary.
• 33:45
  Francesca Mason Boring: So one example is, um, when people have been widowed or widowers, you know, who really, particularly if they've been married 50 years or something and, and you know, that they may, you know, they may also die within a year because they're just.
• 34:01
  Francesca Mason Boring: There's just so much, really times when those folks, uh, encounter a pet or it's almost as though the pet that they have at home, uh, saves them.
• 34:11
  Francesca Mason Boring: So when we're really modern, um, when we look at different therapeutic models, there are some times that, that I think some people are conditioned to think those relationships are inconsequential or may not really be aware of how many possibilities.
• 34:30
  Francesca Mason Boring: Are there within those relationships, what opportunity there is for resolution that applies so far beyond just that one bond, you know, but Absolutely.
• 34:42
  Francesca Mason Boring: Yeah, absolutely.
• 34:43
  Francesca Mason Boring: But I love how the dog is there.
• 34:45
  Francesca Mason Boring: I love that.
• 34:47
  Tracy Cartwright: She's, she does some funny things.
• 34:48
  Tracy Cartwright: Comes into my work quite, quite regularly with my one-on-one clients.
• 34:51
  Tracy Cartwright: You know, I actually have it now on my website that I, I call, I say she's a therapy dog.
• 34:56
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, please let me know because most people are pretty good, whether you get the occasional person who isn't so happy to have a dog in the room.
• 35:02
  Tracy Cartwright: So, yeah, it's not here.
• 35:03
  Tracy Cartwright: It's the cat or the birds, little birds that come and sit at the window and jump around or, you know, there's something outside.
• 35:10
  Tracy Cartwright: Um.
• 35:11
  Tracy Cartwright: I remember meeting you in Sydney and we did a piece of some work and it took me back to being a child and knowing the, all of how nature was talking to me and you know, because I'd filtered a lot of that stuff out.
• 35:22
  Tracy Cartwright: But just the richness of when we stop and listen and we, and we notice
• 35:28
  Francesca Mason Boring: well, and I think with, with trees, I think that's, um, one of the things that, um.
• 35:34
  Francesca Mason Boring: I, I really, I think my first interest in anguin st just to facilitates Constellation, um, does, uh, has a trauma university.
• 35:44
  Francesca Mason Boring: But, but one of the first connections that I had to her work was, um, when she wrote a book, and part of it was speaking about working with Vietnam veterans and taking them out into nature.
• 35:56
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so I think that that that possibility.
• 36:01
  Francesca Mason Boring: Was something that I thought, I mean, all indigenous people have always a lot of people, um, called them, you know, our relatives like the, the elk or our, our relatives that are tree people, rock people, you know, the mountain people.
• 36:18
  Francesca Mason Boring: So I think this personification that a lot of indigenous people had of different aspects of nature spoke really directly to this relationship and also the healing.
• 36:29
  Francesca Mason Boring: So I think the, the teachings, I remember one time I was with an elder and I was thinking about which direction to go and, and, you know, talking about things like psychology, he said, he said, let me show you something.
• 36:45
  Francesca Mason Boring: Come here, I want you to see something.
• 36:46
  Francesca Mason Boring: So we just walked over to this tree and there was a, a scar on the tree.
• 36:51
  Francesca Mason Boring: So there had been a lightning strike or something had knocked one of the branches off and, and it was all, you know, it was kind of.
• 36:58
  Francesca Mason Boring: A little bit of a bubble, but it was all healed over.
• 37:02
  Francesca Mason Boring: And he said, this is what nature does.
• 37:04
  Francesca Mason Boring: Nature is always healing.
• 37:05
  Francesca Mason Boring: So in a way, he was saying, it's our nature to heal.
• 37:09
  Francesca Mason Boring: So if we can know that, then it's very organic and it's going to happen.
• 37:15
  Francesca Mason Boring: And we're in good hands.
• 37:17
  Francesca Mason Boring: We're always in a process of healing.
• 37:19
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so I just, um, I, I bring that with me because I thought it just was, um, again, that kind of bigger hands.
• 37:28
  Francesca Mason Boring: When we do Constellation, when we look at things like destiny and date and, and we're facilitating, we know in every moment that there, there is something bigger.
• 37:36
  Francesca Mason Boring: There's some kind of container, something, you know, interest or helpful.
• 37:40
  Francesca Mason Boring: Yeah.
• 37:41
  Francesca Mason Boring: Yeah.
• 37:41
  Tracy Cartwright: Beautiful.
• 37:42
  Francesca Mason Boring: Beautiful.
• 37:43
  Francesca Mason Boring: What else do we want to ask?
• 37:44
  Francesca Mason Boring: Lacey?
• 37:45
  Francesca Mason Boring: Amazing eyebrows.
• 37:46
  Francesca Mason Boring: I love those.
• 37:46
  Francesca Mason Boring: Microsoft.
• 37:47
  Tracy Cartwright: Beautiful.
• 37:47
  Tracy Cartwright: She's got, she's, she's blonde and scruffy, a bit like me, and she's got shot over jaw.
• 37:51
  Tracy Cartwright: So we, this is in my household.
• 37:53
  Tracy Cartwright: We do this to each other.
• 37:54
  Tracy Cartwright: Sometimes we showing each other our bottom teeth and that means, oh my God, you're so funny.
• 37:59
  Tracy Cartwright: So, so beautiful.
• 38:01
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, do you have any examples, stories or, or anything that for the listeners and the viewers that may.
• 38:08
  Tracy Cartwright: If there's anything that's sitting there that you could feel that you could share without obviously crossing anyone's confidentiality.
• 38:14
  Tracy Cartwright: Just a little sample of the work.
• 38:16
  Francesca Mason Boring: Yeah.
• 38:17
  Francesca Mason Boring: Well, I think one of the things that I've found is that I think there's this amazing sense of community that people have when they do systems constellation, and one of the reasons that happens so strongly is because, you know, when you speak about not violating confidentiality.
• 38:36
  Francesca Mason Boring: One of the things that we start to see is that over and over and over again, whatever my experiences have been, they're part of the human condition.
• 38:46
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so it can be that someone has a very difficult experience and they want to look at it in the constellation, and it can be that several people have had.
• 38:58
  Francesca Mason Boring: The exact same experience and I'll, I'll tell you how exactly, and this was very early on when I was a new facilitator and I was very lucky because both of my parents came at different times to the Constellation workshop and I mean, they were incredibly open people and so they represented, I was facilitating.
• 39:19
  Francesca Mason Boring: I knew I would never do their constellation ever, but they were all in open, willing to represent.
• 39:28
  Francesca Mason Boring: And at that time, of course, we're talking like 25 years ago or so, there were not a lot of facilitators, especially in the United States.
• 39:35
  Francesca Mason Boring: I mean, there was a growth and the outcropping in Germany, but there were very, very few.
• 39:41
  Francesca Mason Boring: So, um, the chance that they would or anyone would be able to see someone else, um, was slim to none.
• 39:49
  Francesca Mason Boring: So they both came very open and I was, you know, excited, A little bit shy about it, but, but they always had been.
• 39:55
  Francesca Mason Boring: Um, I'm the eldest of seven children, so we have a very dynamic family and I'm an extended family and my mom's family, and so cousins, aunts, uncles, there's a lot that's always happening, but they always have been encouraging and each, you know, when they had an opportunity came.
• 40:10
  Francesca Mason Boring: So what happened was someone sat beside me and wanted to do a constellation, their own constellation, and.
• 40:18
  Francesca Mason Boring: Tracy.
• 40:19
  Francesca Mason Boring: It was just like, it should have been in some kind of very weird comedy movie, because what happened was for with my mother, and then the same thing happened with my father.
• 40:28
  Francesca Mason Boring: Basically what was placed was their constellation.
• 40:31
  Tracy Cartwright: Wow.
• 40:32
  Tracy Cartwright: Yep.
• 40:32
  Francesca Mason Boring: And it was so parallel that I must have sounded a little bit like an idiot because I kept saying to the client are, are you sure this is your.
• 40:45
  Francesca Mason Boring: Sure this is your representative.
• 40:47
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so it, they were so precise all the way to when, um, when the one was done for one client, and it was so parallel to my mother.
• 40:56
  Francesca Mason Boring: Um, they had seven children, which my mother had seven children.
• 40:59
  Francesca Mason Boring: So it was, and, and I was really in just such an internal conflict and so much influx because it was like.
• 41:08
  Francesca Mason Boring: I know I would never do their constellation.
• 41:10
  Francesca Mason Boring: I would never do my mother's, I would never do my father's or any of my relatives because I'm part of the same system.
• 41:15
  Francesca Mason Boring: So my ability to be objective about their system is new.
• 41:20
  Francesca Mason Boring: Just like to be objective about my own system.
• 41:22
  Francesca Mason Boring: That's why it's so wonderful to have a facilitator to, to look and have representatives who may not even know me, but I am, I, I, I'm just still.
• 41:33
  Francesca Mason Boring: So many years later, so amazed at how many points were identical and parallel and essentially, I think I would say they had their constellations done.
• 41:46
  Francesca Mason Boring: Although I would never have done them, and I had to at every juncture, every time a new movement came or a new representative was added, I was like, I wish I had an advisor here because this is my parents, and yet it's still.
• 42:00
  Francesca Mason Boring: The clients and I checked in so many times with the client.
• 42:03
  Francesca Mason Boring: I know they probably thought I was a little bit daft, but it was just, I really needed to do that.
• 42:07
  Francesca Mason Boring: And then what was so beautiful was at the end, um, I mean my mother loved it.
• 42:14
  Francesca Mason Boring: She's, she was a public health nurse for years and very involved in healing and community and um, you know, just a. A phenomenal person.
• 42:24
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so in the end, my dad, um, I just had, because that definitely was not his foray.
• 42:32
  Francesca Mason Boring: Um, but I, but I, I loved that he came.
• 42:35
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so I said, well, so Dad, what, what did you think?
• 42:38
  Francesca Mason Boring: And um, he said, and he really rarely used any kind of, uh, you know, what you'd say, colorful language or whatever.
• 42:46
  Francesca Mason Boring: But he just looked at me and he said.
• 42:49
  Francesca Mason Boring: Was some heavy shit.
• 42:50
  Francesca Mason Boring: So it's just, it was wonderful that it really, what it did lead me with, it left me with just an awe about the efficacy of the work and I knew that I really wanna always be aware that when, when there's something that is so deep, one person is the person that brought the constellation forward.
• 43:09
  Francesca Mason Boring: But I have to know that there may be a number of people present in that circle who are doing the same work and.
• 43:17
  Francesca Mason Boring: Maybe they didn't know that's what they were gonna do when they came.
• 43:20
  Francesca Mason Boring: You know, that might not be, that they would've wanted to do a constellation or ask for a constellation, but this knowing field has this, I've, I've started referring to it as an elegant efficiency that just really has this way of maximizing everything, every word, every person, every part.
• 43:39
  Francesca Mason Boring: Um, it just, everything is so magnified, so, yeah.
• 43:43
  Tracy Cartwright: That's beautiful.
• 43:45
  Tracy Cartwright: I, I, I had the pleasure of having my mom and sister and niece and, and both my daughters come in the early parts of my learning as well, because the work was so new nobody had heard of it.
• 43:57
  Tracy Cartwright: It was, I didn't always have enough representatives, so they would come and, and fill in space.
• 44:02
  Tracy Cartwright: So I like you obviously never constellated them.
• 44:06
  Tracy Cartwright: I know they received so much from it and they got to understand, uh, what I was doing too in a different way.
• 44:12
  Tracy Cartwright: Than me just describing it.
• 44:14
  Tracy Cartwright: So, felt really, really, um, grateful for that.
• 44:17
  Tracy Cartwright: And when I would, 'cause it was a two hour drive for me to go down to my training.
• 44:22
  Tracy Cartwright: And on the way down I'd be thinking about the things I wanted to work on.
• 44:25
  Tracy Cartwright: Maybe if I got on the hot seat, this is what I would look at today.
• 44:28
  Tracy Cartwright: Right.
• 44:28
  Tracy Cartwright: And we could almost guarantee the first person that said in the hot seat would do the exact, that exact cons Action.
• 44:34
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 44:34
  Tracy Cartwright: And, okay.
• 44:35
  Tracy Cartwright: Different system, different story.
• 44:36
  Tracy Cartwright: But throughout it, I, I often was chosen to represent.
• 44:40
  Tracy Cartwright: And there'd be so many things that would line up in my own system, and I'd be like, yeah, yeah.
• 44:45
  Tracy Cartwright: So I didn't even need to sit in the one seat.
• 44:47
  Francesca Mason Boring: Yeah.
• 44:48
  Francesca Mason Boring: Yeah.
• 44:48
  Francesca Mason Boring: Well, and the other part that I think really encourages self care and.
• 44:53
  Francesca Mason Boring: Really finding what helps to ground us is that we can have the same experience when we're facilitating.
• 45:00
  Francesca Mason Boring: It's, it's not been unheard of.
• 45:02
  Francesca Mason Boring: That, um, that I facilitated a constellation that really echoed something in my own system.
• 45:07
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so to be able to really stay grounded and be grateful, know that there'll be a space when I can integrate that, but to be touched in even a deeper way than when you see a human being with the courage to do that.
• 45:20
  Francesca Mason Boring: I think it is just sort of, it will.
• 45:23
  Francesca Mason Boring: You know, it just will weave itself in the most incredible way in so many different places and so many different, helpful, helpful ways.
• 45:32
  Tracy Cartwright: Have you ever, um, been working in a constellation and thought, I just can't go any further?
• 45:36
  Tracy Cartwright: I just, I'm like, I need to stop here.
• 45:39
  Tracy Cartwright: You know,
• 45:39
  Francesca Mason Boring: I feel really, really thankful that my introduction to Constellation involved being able to watch personally, Bert Hellinger, being able to watch Hunter Beaumont being able to watch Bunard Weber, being able to watch Alrich Mar.
• 45:54
  Francesca Mason Boring: So from the very beginning, um, Al Summer, I was able to see a lot of facilitators who really were the folks that started this work.
• 46:03
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so what I saw was.
• 46:07
  Francesca Mason Boring: It gave me full permission because I saw places in which, um, for instance, in one place someone wanted to do a constellation, and I believe that it was, uh, hunter Beaumont, the person came and sat.
• 46:20
  Francesca Mason Boring: They began to say what was happening, and he said, and there was still a good segment of time, and I, I share this really because people had paid a lot of money and there was a lot of pressure to go up until the last minute.
• 46:33
  Francesca Mason Boring: And, um, he just looked at the person and looked at everyone and he said, I stop now because I'm tired.
• 46:41
  Francesca Mason Boring: And it was just that, just really to stop.
• 46:44
  Francesca Mason Boring: And the other thing that I, um, that I saw and that I have had, uh, happen in constellations was when there is so much that has happened in a person's own life and in their own family system.
• 46:58
  Francesca Mason Boring: Um, and human beings have experienced, uh.
• 47:02
  Francesca Mason Boring: Incredible horrors.
• 47:03
  Francesca Mason Boring: And there are times when, when I've known that part of what we can do is not to try to make it smaller.
• 47:13
  Francesca Mason Boring: It, it can't be smaller.
• 47:14
  Francesca Mason Boring: And so there have been times that rather than, you know, let's put up 10 more people.
• 47:20
  Francesca Mason Boring: And have lots of healing sentences back and forth and juggle as much as we can.
• 47:27
  Francesca Mason Boring: There have been some times when really there was just such a deep sense that the only thing that was appropriate was not to do that, but to honor what's, what's there.
• 47:37
  Francesca Mason Boring: Not for our own comfort to try to, in a way, be dismissive or diminish because that that would be disingenuous.
• 47:46
  Francesca Mason Boring: So I think that, um, there are those times that if I were going by a facilitator handbook, and I think that's the difference between working phenomenologically and working in a really constructivist way.
• 47:58
  Francesca Mason Boring: Um, I sometimes say phenomenological is that the constellation leads and the facilitator follows, and then constructivist is that the facilitator leads and the constellation follows.
• 48:10
  Francesca Mason Boring: So I think that when we are really working in the field, um.
• 48:15
  Francesca Mason Boring: Are those times that we get a stop, you know, really the, the field, the capacity of the group, the capacity of the person, the depth of what is true, really wants to be given a space and to do more, to go further would be, would not be helpful.
• 48:31
  Francesca Mason Boring: Would not be healing.
• 48:32
  Francesca Mason Boring: Yeah.
• 48:33
  Francesca Mason Boring: Yeah.
• 48:33
  Francesca Mason Boring: So, yeah, so I think there definitely have been times.
• 48:36
  Francesca Mason Boring: And, uh, and there have been times when a group could not do a particular constellation, that there would be a level of judgment or something that really made a particular constellation not appropriate to do there, or, or them.
• 48:49
  Francesca Mason Boring: Or, and that's another example.
• 48:51
  Francesca Mason Boring: Then, um, if there is something that really has a lot of depth and a lot of entanglement, a lot of challenge, um, if someone wants to do that work, uh, like toward the end of the day or just before lunch, when there's not really enough time, then I would definitely say, you know, we, we really need to stop here and we'll, we'll come back to this.
• 49:13
  Francesca Mason Boring: Or, um, it's something that really does need to be given more time.
• 49:16
  Francesca Mason Boring: So I think the time and the group and the.
• 49:19
  Francesca Mason Boring: The gravity of what has happened in that system.
• 49:22
  Francesca Mason Boring: I'm so happy that I did see so many of the really experienced facilitators that would just stop, you know?
• 49:29
  Francesca Mason Boring: And, uh, yeah.
• 49:30
  Francesca Mason Boring: So I think that's, that's a good thing.
• 49:32
  Francesca Mason Boring: Or, or even, um, the times when Hellinger, when he essentially would not do a constellation, you know, would hear something would be very difficult and he would basically just hold it with the person acknowledging.
• 49:45
  Francesca Mason Boring: Um, the other thing that I share, sometimes it's kind of naughty, but there was a time when Hellinger came to Southern California and he did a free evening for a psychotherapist.
• 49:56
  Francesca Mason Boring: And, um, it was really packed.
• 49:58
  Francesca Mason Boring: It was in a kind of auditorium setting, lots of people.
• 50:01
  Francesca Mason Boring: So I, I was sitting there and someone came to the stage and they had something that was really quite painful.
• 50:07
  Francesca Mason Boring: And, and so he, they were, you know, very activated and he sat beside them really still.
• 50:14
  Francesca Mason Boring: Then, you know, you could almost see their bodies, um, start to breathe like in sync.
• 50:20
  Francesca Mason Boring: So from being kind of activated to, to really being, you know, more self-regulated and calm.
• 50:28
  Francesca Mason Boring: And, um, so then, um, he looked at the person when the person that they had sort of said what was happening and they were activated, and then they, you know, everything began to be self-regulated.
• 50:39
  Francesca Mason Boring: And then he said, are we done?
• 50:41
  Francesca Mason Boring: And the person smiled and said yes, and one of the therapists behind me said, what the was that?
• 50:47
  Francesca Mason Boring: So, so I think we've had some hurdles, you know, in really listening and being with what is and what's there, what wants to happen.
• 50:57
  Francesca Mason Boring: But I think it's grace that's allowed us to have these amazing people that came before that really found this incredible way to navigate.
• 51:06
  Francesca Mason Boring: Gave us permission.
• 51:06
  Tracy Cartwright: That's fantastic.
• 51:07
  Tracy Cartwright: It's beautiful.
• 51:08
  Tracy Cartwright: Well, you still wanna be in this, don't you?
• 51:09
  Tracy Cartwright: Come on, Megan.
• 51:10
  Tracy Cartwright: Up.
• 51:11
  Tracy Cartwright: She's up now.
• 51:12
  Tracy Cartwright: I'd have to be so interested.
• 51:14
  Tracy Cartwright: Hey.
• 51:14
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 51:15
  Tracy Cartwright: Well we've, we've shared a lot and there's so much more to share, but I would love for the listeners and the viewers, how they could, I know that you've sent me the link and we're gonna put it in the thread, but often there are people that just like to hear it and more of an audible.
• 51:27
  Tracy Cartwright: So how can someone get in touch with you if they would like to work with you or find.
• 51:32
  Tracy Cartwright: Gonna be book next 'cause I know that you've got, so the best
• 51:35
  Francesca Mason Boring: thing is my, um, my schedule is posted on my website and that is www.allmyrelationsconstellations.com.
• 51:46
  Francesca Mason Boring: So relations and constellations are plural.
• 51:49
  Francesca Mason Boring: I just love that there's so much love with the puppy right now.
• 51:53
  Francesca Mason Boring: But yeah, www.allmyrelationsconstellations.com, um, that has my schedule and contact information for the coordinators of the different.
• 52:02
  Francesca Mason Boring: Things that I'm gonna be doing.
• 52:04
  Francesca Mason Boring: And then I hope that there are resources on the website as well.
• 52:07
  Francesca Mason Boring: So there are different places that people can go if they want to know more just about Constellation work in general, or find facilitators in their areas.
• 52:16
  Francesca Mason Boring: Um, I always have Cecilio Rejo, um, has developed a beautiful talent manager.
• 52:22
  Francesca Mason Boring: It's called, and it's a listing of, uh, a number of facilitators from all over the world.
• 52:28
  Francesca Mason Boring: So whatever country someone's coming from, it's certainly not all inclusive.
• 52:32
  Francesca Mason Boring: Um, but it gives them at least a sense that there are facilitators in their area and then hopefully they're encouraged to Google and find more.
• 52:39
  Francesca Mason Boring: So yeah, so www.allmyrelationsconstellations.com.
• 52:43
  Francesca Mason Boring: Awesome.
• 52:44
  Francesca Mason Boring: And I'm so grateful.
• 52:46
  Tracy Cartwright: And you are gonna be in Mexico in October.
• 52:48
  Francesca Mason Boring: Yes.
• 52:49
  Francesca Mason Boring: I'm really looking forward to that.
• 52:51
  Francesca Mason Boring: I, I have such a heart from Mexico and, um, we have so many, um, Spanish speaking people and we have such a relationship, and so I think it's just especially important right now that, um, that the conference is going to be held in Mexico.
• 53:09
  Francesca Mason Boring: I'm really, there was no way to know what would've been happening with the deportations and all of that kind of stuff.
• 53:16
  Francesca Mason Boring: But, um, it just turns out, of course, that in the way things work, there was this knowing and it could not be in a more appropriate place to honor and.
• 53:27
  Francesca Mason Boring: Appreciate, um, that really beautiful, rich culture and all that it offers and all the facilitators who will be there.
• 53:35
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, I'm looking forward to that.
• 53:37
  Tracy Cartwright: I'm coming to, I'll, um, come and hang out with you.
• 53:41
  Francesca Mason Boring: I'm so excited.
• 53:42
  Francesca Mason Boring: It will be really good to see you again.
• 53:43
  Francesca Mason Boring: I'm, I'm looking forward to it.
• 53:45
  Francesca Mason Boring: And yeah.
• 53:45
  Francesca Mason Boring: And it's a
• 53:46
  Tracy Cartwright: special time of the year too, isn't it?
• 53:47
  Tracy Cartwright: It's the day of the dead, I think, uh, Halloween, dad of the Dead.
• 53:51
  Tracy Cartwright: There's lots of different things for it, but it feels really potent as well to be in there, to be there.
• 53:56
  Tracy Cartwright: At this time there's been a lot of push pull, push pull around going really, really wanting to go going, oh, I'm not sure if I'm going.
• 54:03
  Tracy Cartwright: I'm going.
• 54:04
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, and I took a homeopathic remedy just yet last week.
• 54:08
  Tracy Cartwright: And the night before, I was like, oh, just 'cause I still haven't actually bought my airline ticket.
• 54:12
  Tracy Cartwright: I've got my conference all sorted and all of that, but I haven't bought.
• 54:16
  Tracy Cartwright: And the next morning I wake up and I was like, yes, I'm in.
• 54:19
  Tracy Cartwright: I can feel the surge of energy.
• 54:20
  Tracy Cartwright: So it's been a really interesting, um, exercise.
• 54:24
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 54:26
  Tracy Cartwright: But I've been more excited as we get closer, so.
• 54:28
  Francesca Mason Boring: Yeah.
• 54:29
  Francesca Mason Boring: Yeah.
• 54:29
  Francesca Mason Boring: No, it's, I'm, I'm just so looking forward to it, and I just, I can't, I'm just in awe of.
• 54:35
  Francesca Mason Boring: The timing and the location and all the people that are coming is just, I mean, my heart is so excited about it, really excited about it.
• 54:43
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 54:43
  Tracy Cartwright: Well thank you so much for, um, for sharing your time with us and I know that there's much more wisdom and, um, juiciness to share.
• 54:52
  Tracy Cartwright: Maybe sometime in the future I could get you back on here and, and we could dive a little bit deeper and see what else is sitting there for us to share.
• 54:59
  Tracy Cartwright: Wonderful.
• 55:00
  Francesca Mason Boring: And I thank you for the podcast and it's something that I'm definitely gonna share with trainees and other people that are interested in this work.
• 55:06
  Francesca Mason Boring: Um, I've appreciated the voices that you bring in and it's really encouraging.
• 55:12
  Tracy Cartwright: Thank you.
• 55:12
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 55:13
  Tracy Cartwright: For New Zealand for, because we are a small country and it's, it's, um, it's been sort of underground for such a long time and we're really starting to to, to bring the work forward.
• 55:24
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, and it aligns along so beautifully with, um, the Maori worldview as well.
• 55:29
  Tracy Cartwright: So the felt potent and powerful time to, to be able to do this podcast and just to share it from all different angles, all different points of view, and, and we go off on random conversations.
• 55:39
  Tracy Cartwright: It's not just.
• 55:40
  Tracy Cartwright: Constellations.
• 55:41
  Tracy Cartwright: But yeah,
• 55:42
  Francesca Mason Boring: no, it's really very warm.
• 55:44
  Francesca Mason Boring: I, I really, I so much enjoyed listening because it just is, gives so much permission and I thank you for that, Isha.
• 55:50
  Francesca Mason Boring: Thank you.
• 55:51
  Francesca Mason Boring: Thank you.
• 55:52
  Tracy Cartwright: Thank you for listening.
• 55:54
  Tracy Cartwright: Get over to Instagram and tell me what's resonated for you with this episode.
• 55:57
  Tracy Cartwright: You'll find me at Tracy dot Cartwright.
• 56:00
  Tracy Cartwright: That's Tracy with no e cartwright, and or head over to my website, Tracy cartwright.co.nz and receive a free audio with a gift from your ancestors.
• 56:11
  Tracy Cartwright: So until next time, be kind to yourself and have fun doing it.