Latest / Beyond our Stories / Why Who You Let In Has Consequences | Beyond Our Stories with Kimberly Weeks
Transcript
- Ali Schmahl: There were scenes that I had experienced. And when I saw it on the film, I was very much like, ⁓ my gosh, that's what happened. That's what that was. And it was able to, it's like two puzzle pieces coming together and clicking. It was like I was able to connect those dots. I think people do not recognize how much damage a person's words can cause in a person's physical body. But when I saw it on the brain scan, I was like, ⁓ my gosh. I know that came from going through this experience. Every person has a story. Some stories make us laugh, some challenge us. Some stay with us long after they're over. But sometimes the most meaningful part of the story isn't the end. It's the conversation that begins afterwards. Welcome to Beyond Our Stories. I'm Ali. And I'm Stephanie. And we have a very especial guest today. One thing I've learned by making I Love You My Narcissist is that many people aren't looking for another diagnosis. They are looking for understanding. That's why I'm very happy to have Kimberly Weeks with us. Hi, Kimberly. Hey Ali, how are you guys doing? So good to be here with you today. Good. Great to have you. This is amazing to have you ⁓ at the podcast. ⁓ This podcast is one of the very first ⁓ episodes of or ⁓ our newly ⁓ started podcast. So we are very excited about it. Yeah, ⁓ Timberly, tell us a little bit ⁓ about yourself. So I am a mother, I always start I'm a mother of four young sons. ⁓ I have been in a an a narcissistically abusive, coercively controlling relationship in my marriage. Came out of that, discovered that I was in a narcissistic family system. And that led me to start working with survivors so that they are able to recover from coercive control, narcissistic abuse, and spiritual abuse, and discover their purpose and discover what they ⁓ are able to take from the experiences they've had and make it a part of what makes them a resilient person. So that is what ⁓ I'm very passionate about because when you go through abusive dynamics, it can be the absolute turning point of your life. And many people don't believe they can take anything good out of those experiences, but that's absolutely not the truth. And I am a witness to that. Amazing. So it means that you are a trauma informed narcissistic abuse recovery coach, right? That is correct. I am a narcissistically abused. Or I am a narcissistic abuse recovery coach. I am also a co-founder of the Global Trauma Institute, where we train people on trauma-informed care for abuse survivors, as well as I do a particular course on narcissistic abuse recovery practitioner, and I train coaches to be able to work with clients just like I do every day. And take us a bit on on ⁓ your journey. What made you decide you don't just want to take care of yourself and heal yourself, but you want to support others? ⁓ I think because there it was it changed my whole life. The experience of abuse in my marriage changed my entire life. And I recognized that I was not alone in that. I recognized that there were other people who were ⁓ trying to navigate healing and recovering. One of the parts of my story that I didn't mention was that after be going through the divorce process, I was diagnosed with a chronic illness. I I found out that I have brain and spinal lesions. And because of that, I went through a period after being a stay-at-home mother, having four children that I was left to take care of for the most part predominantly, having to completely rebuild not just my life, but rebuild my body and go through the process of rehabilitation. I couldn't string two words together. I couldn't string two sentences together because of the placement of those brain lesions in my body. And so I recognize that if I'm going through this, I know there's other people going through this as well. And the language, the resources, the understanding that you all speak of was just not there. This was 10 years ago. Nobody was talking about the word narcissism the way they do today. People weren't talking about coercive control. There certainly weren't any laws for anything like that to be able to get support because people come out of these experiences and their lives are wrecked. I just knew that A, I had to figure out what happened to me. And B, I wasn't gonna be finding all of that information out and just sitting on it because I knew other people were going through it and their lives were being devastated in many ways. I trained and became a coach. I was like, I have to tell everybody this. I have to tell people about this language. I have to tell people about these, you know, dynamics. There's a name for this. It's not in their head. They're not making it up. And so that's what led me on the path to become a coach. And as I have walked with survivors, it has been a beautiful journey watching people go from being Very, very subdued, I'm gonna use that word, just kind of like shut down and subdued to watching them come back to life, cu watching them come back to their sense of like purpose in the world and you know, going after the things that bring them joy and happiness. What I'm also interested in is because now nowadays with social media and ⁓ and because every ev everyone has access to social media and can create a profile and And just get followers, grow and ⁓ become an influencer or ⁓ or s ⁓ or ⁓ anything. Men so misunderstand the work some people are doing because we get that also, for example, for I love my narcissists ⁓ a lot that people misunderstand or that people criticize. Also, we are doing for a good cause and we are doing for su we are doing something good. So my question is What's something people usually misunderstand from your work and about your book? ⁓ that's a great question. I would think that the first thing that I battle, I'm gonna use that term, is people thinking that you're a bitter person who's just trying to get back at your ass. That's what I I run into a lot. The why are you still talking about this? Because I've been talking about this for almost ten years. So why are you still talking about this? Why have you wrapped your whole life around it? And I think people misunderstand the seriousness of this experience. Dr. Romini talks about this often and she says narcissistic abuse is the health epidemic of our time, one of the greatest health epidemics of our time. And when you've walked through this kind of predatory pattern of behavior that alters your functionality, that alters your ability to Take care of yourself that alters your financial situation and your sense of yourself and identity. It is something that is so deeply life-changing that people often are not able to recover from it. And so for me, I have a passion as a person in general. Like I'm one of those people that I'm I'm gonna be the underdog and I'm gonna come back from whatever life throws at me. But there are a lot of people that that don't. have the same kind of resilience. And because of that, I have a passion for helping people find that spark in themselves. So I think people confuse often that the people who speak about, the people who make films about, the people who advocate, the people who go to the UN and talk about coercive control laws, the people who lobby for changes in the law are just bitter people who are obsessed. And that's absolutely not the truth. What the truth is, is we've actually seen behind the veil of the damage this causes and how destructive it is to family systems, communities and governments and and people in general, that we want to do something about it. It's from a heart of advocacy, it's from a heart of protecting people, and it's from a heart of wanting to make sure that the people who have been impacted can recover from the experience. Yeah, and like you said. Like you said earlier, it's still also a topic that is very new. Like a couple of years ago, I remember when it was talked about in TV shows or movies, it was more talked about like it was a joke or just just the silly character trait that this person is egoistic. So it's a narcissist and yeah, it's just and it doesn't it doesn't reflect on what narcissists actually do to people around them and how this is affecting them and destroying them. Yeah. So they don't want to be serious. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so I guess people because of that never took the time to really understand the terms. And also they don't understand why people actually stay in these kind of unhealthy relationships. So a lot of times and also the reason why, for example, we worked on I Love You My Narcissist was that ⁓ we wanted to move away from people just having this first idea of saying, ⁓ this would never happen to me and If this happened to me, I would leave immediately. So why do you think people stay in these unhealthy relationships? They stay in the unhealthy relationships because of two reasons. The first is that they're actually chemically conditioned to stay. They are bonded, we call it trauma bonded, to that other person. And because of that, they it's like a slot machine. The person has gone through a process of what's called intermittent reinforcement that allows ⁓ the person to have highs and good times and lows that are very bad and destructive. And because of that, the the person gets conditioned and groomed to continue to seek the good times with that narcissistic, narcissistic partner, or, you know, in an environment that might be an organization, because they have actually, I'm gonna use the word tasted that that atmosphere or that relationship can be good. And so over time it conditions your body to keep seeking, very much like they do with trials with animals, rats, and all of those different things, to keep going after and seeking the reward that you get in that dynamic. And so the person becomes addicted in many ways, chemically, the to the release of cortisol, adrenaline, and all kinds of, you know, oxytocin. All of the hormones they actually hijack. The experience hijacks the body and keeps that person trying to seek safety, reward from the the person who's actually harming them. And because of that, that creates this dynamic where the person stays longer than is healthy for them to stay. And the other reason is once they've been back and forth in that dynamic, it actually for the body somatically feels safer because often these dynamics are extremely abusive, verbally, psychologically, sometimes sexually, sometimes physically. It leads, it's kind of like I call it the gateway abuse, ⁓ narcissistic abuse and psychological abuse to other forms of abuse. And so the person's like nervous system is negotiating, is it safe for me to leave this person? And often it is not. Often on the other side of leaving an abuser is homicide, femicide, suicide, family side. And so the person's negotiating unconsciously often whether or not they can leave that dynamic, not to mention that they've been put in a place of dependency often where financially it's almost impossible for them to leave. Yeah, that's that's also what I what I wanted also to to say and ⁓ and mention. Because now the listeners who are who are listening they think, yeah, okay, ⁓ if someone is in such relationship so they can they can just simply leave. So why why they stay? It's easier to stay ⁓ than than living. it's not so easy to leave such relationships. Mainly the trauma bond that these that the survivors and the victims have to their partners makes it almost impossible to leave that relationship. And and even if if someone leaves that relationship for maybe a couple of days or a couple of weeks, they think the whole time during this time that they want to go back to that to that partner and they try to find their way to back to the partner or even if the partner just takes them out of nowhere suddenly, they are back again and that's not so easy to leave. So tell us more about that and to to the listeners that would be amazing. Yeah, I mean there's a reason why for domestic violence statistics it takes people seven times to permanently leave an abuse. There's a reason for that. And the trauma bond is, you know, one of those reasons. I think the other thing that is important to note is that the number one reason for homicides globally is because someone is leaving a relationship. That's the number one reason that people are murdered. And it typically happens in the first weeks and days after someone tries to leave an abusive dynamic. So It it when people say it you should just leave the person, they're discounting the reality of those statistics. They're discounting the fact that it is the most unsafe environment. Even though they have already been abused, even though they have been in years of coercive control, and coercive control is when a person systematically manipulates, isolates, controls, and dominates another person to usurp or take over their will. To get them to do things that they don't want to do. And so when someone is in a coercively controlling environment and then they try to leave that, most of the time, if there is a homicide, it happens in that dynamic. And so it's just void of and divorced from the reality of how unsafe it is to leave an abuser. That person actually targets, and I'm going to use the word ⁓ taps you as a Property. They say that you belong to them. And so when they lose control over something they believe is a possession, when they lose control over there something they think they have an a right to and entitled to control, that then creates a an ecosystem that is trying to pull that person back underneath that bondage. I'm going to use that word. ⁓ and when the person, for whatever reason, whether it's family, Whether it's the, you know, court system or whatever, when they get help to leave, that threatens that narcissist or that abuser's sense, their ego and their sense of self. They actually experience what's called narcissistic injury. And it's like they're dying for you to say no to them, for you to leave them, for you to blow up their idea of who they are in the world. They take that as an actual threat to their existence. And that is why they go into in many instances a deadly kind of or a ⁓ destructive kind of pattern of behavior. For the movie I Love You My Narcissus, we interviewed also many, many, many people. And some of them were underrun actually. Some of them they were changing homes every week. Yes. They were changing changing jobs every week. ⁓ because they told us ⁓ yeah, ⁓ as soon as their narcissistic partner finds out ⁓ finds out where they live and where they work, they just show up there and they make a disaster at work at in front of the home and and and that's that's very sad. Or there were people that had children like you, you also have children with a with an ex a narcissistic partner. So that's this also keeps you in contact with them. Yes, and and not only that You are forced, you are court ordered to remain in communication, in in healthy communication with the person who abused you and it often abused your children. And so it it it is a double bind because you're trying to get to safety. You're trying to get your children out of an atmosphere that's unsafe for them in many instances, in many ways. I have many clients who've their their children have been sexually abused by their the other parent, physically abused by the other parent, and the court is requiring you to remain in contact and to give them parenting time. And if you refuse to send the children, you go to jail. You have charges. You have kidnapping charges. And so it creates this dynamic where the system that or the family court system wherever you are in the world is actually helping that partner continue to abuse you. or your children. And so when people say a lot of women stay or a lot of people stay in these abusive dynamics because they don't want to have their children with that other person without their presence. They negotiate that, well, I can at least be a buffer and keep that person from being alone with that other parent if I stay with them, especially when they're young. Speaking of the court, because you mentioned that, ⁓ the here Every day that ⁓ that ⁓ there are problems for the survivors ⁓ in the court or in justice system that they don't get recognized or the pa or or the narcissistic partner or the abusive partner is winning the case and and stuff like that. In your opinion, what is the biggest misconception about emotional and narcissistic and ⁓ toxic ⁓ emotional abuse, toxic relationship, ⁓ and narcissistic abuse? That it's not real abuse, that it's not real meaning. It doesn't have a physical impact on the person. When I left my marriage, and within three months, I was in the hospital and I was looking at the MRI to see the lesions in my brain. And I can remember the moments in the relationship where the person was verbally assaulting me, where the person was psychologically gaslighting me, and my brain felt like it was being rattled like a snow globe. I can remember the pain I felt in my head and when I saw my brain lesions or the lesions in my brain, I remembered those moments. I think people think that emotional abuse is a lesser kind of abuse, that it's not really, really domestic violence. And the truth is that every kind of abuse, financial abuse does the same thing. It puts you in that same threat response. Sexual abuses, it causes a physiological effect. Every single single form of it. And it can develop the ⁓ chronic illnesses, diseases. Some people develop cancers coming out of these d these experiences. It's all linked to the stress. And I mean, statistically, they're doing studies on all of these things between the the link between psychological abuse and emotional abuse and impacts to the body and to the brain, specifically and nervous system. I think people do not recognize how much damage a person's words can cause in a person's physical body. But when I saw it on the brain scan, I was like, ⁓ my gosh, I know that came from going through this experience because I can remember the moments where I felt the pain in my physical body in the environment with that person. And that's why also one of the problems because with with this many, many almost all survivors blame themselves for being for for not being a good person or ⁓ a person who would be enough for the partner or stuff like that because in from my o my personal experience I was I was experiencing person narcissistic abuse and ⁓ abuse generally in in my in my whole life ⁓ from childhood until ⁓ until ⁓ a couple of years ago. And Every time I experience something, I experienced abuse or or or narcissistic abuse, I was blaming myself because I I I was thinking, ⁓ I'm not good enough, I must do better, I'm I I should have done that, I should have done this, I didn't I shouldn't have done this and and stuff like that. And it happens because because The manipulation the the na the narcissistic partners do towards the to do towards the survivor. They make the survivors and the victim ask themselves, okay, what I did was actually wrong, although they know it wasn't wrong. Yes, they do. And you know, I I experienced ⁓ Ali something called aphasia. I don't know if you've ever heard of aphasia, but because of the location of my brain lesions. I experience and and let me say it this way. When someone is constantly causing you to question your reality, constantly causing you to question, did you hear what you heard? Did what you saw actually happen the way you saw it? ⁓ this person's telling me that they did this and I remember this, so you you question your memory. That actually starts to make changes to your brain. It actually causes damage to your brain. And so the location of my lesions actually made it more difficult because of that assault, verbal assault and that mental assault for me to be able to put into words what I was thinking. There was a disconnect between what I was thinking and what I was able to speak. And then there was a disconnect between when someone was speaking to me and me being able to comprehend. It was actually like twisting up and distorting and changing the functionality of my brain. It's called aphasia. And many people come out of these abuse dynamics not being able to explain clearly and coherently what happened to them because of the gaslighting, because of the manipulation, because of that verbal assault. And so when you go to family court or you try to tell family members or friends, you're You're sounding completely discombobulated because your your brain is injured, because your speech is now impacted in terms of your ability to articulate. Why? Because you've been in that abusive dynamic, trying to get the person to agree to reality and the facts of what happened. And they're constantly like either moving the goalpoise, changing the story, making their own narrative. And it actually changes your brain and your capacity to speak. And so what you're describing is then the person is telling you that you're mentally ill, you're you're the one that's at fault, you're the one that's stupid, you're the one, and you start believing it because you recognize something is happened to you, something's wrong. You can't express yourself, and they're telling you all of these things about yourself. And you take on the narrative that they're telling and that other people are then affirming because you're speaking differently or you're acting differently. That's all a part of coercive control. It's intentional and strategic. Yeah, and I think that's also ⁓ part of the reason why we need to be louder and talk about this topic more. Cause like I did a lot of research even before we started with this project. And there are still so many things that I was completely unaware of. Like for example, how you described what it can do to your brain. I was really not at all aware of that. And then I wasn't like we talked about the abuse after leaving. I wasn't aware of that, what length this could go to. So and also ⁓ the ignorance that you're confronted with, even though there are already so many resources out there, a lot of people decide to look away or just distance themselves because it's too complicated of a topic. So I'm really glad that we did a project like I Love You My Narcissist to be part of like a movement that's louder and talks about this issue. For whoever is listening ⁓ this podcast or watching it and right now and asking who are these people? So we are Alex in a stream ⁓ ⁓ a stream platform where we ⁓ showcase ⁓ hidden gems we showcase a stories that spark conversation and a stories that we simply can't forget and what is and stories that are worth your time. ⁓ if you want to find out more about us and what we do and what we have ⁓ simply click the link ⁓ in the description and ⁓ you will do you will ⁓ discover by yourself. So I would like to know a little bit about ⁓ yeah, your initial thought process when we reached out to you about the movie I Love You, My Narcissist. What was your expectation of the movie before watching it? And were you excited that there's a movie about ⁓ narcissistic relationships coming out? Or were you also worried that we might get it wrong? What was your experience? Well, my experience was just joy. Because again, this has been a 10-year experience for me trying to find resources, tools, and language to describe and express what my experience was. So I was so excited that there are people who in the film industry are doing telling the story through ⁓ you know, film and telling the story through characters. Because I think all of us learn by seeing ourselves. Outside of ourselves. And so that's really what happened ⁓ when you know you guys reached out to me. I was just like, ⁓ my gosh, this is amazing. I can't wait to see this film. And then when I saw it, and I think I remember telling both of you this, I had a like a weekend where I had to just unpack some things. There were dots that connected that had not integrated before. Like there were scenes that I had experienced. And when I saw it on the film. I was very much like, ⁓ my gosh, that's what happened. That's what that was. And it was able to, it's like two puzzle pieces coming together and clicking. It was like I was able to connect those dots very well. And so, you know, it helped in my healing process, to be very frank. And so I think that is what this film is able to do for people who watch it. It's able to help you see the experiences you may have had, relate to the characters, relate to the family system dynamics, relate to the sense of being trapped and kind of like backed into a corner, relate to seeing the physical impacts where you may have had to go to the doctor or to the hospital. It helps you be able to see what narcissistic abuse actually does to a person and what how the tentacles of it get into every part of your life. Because that was exactly how I I experienced the belt. It was awesome. Okay, so I'm I'm very curious because in many movies there are moments, there are scenes, there are situations that surprises someone. And and I'm really curious to know if there was any such moment for you ⁓ in I Love My Narcissus or any scene, any situation that surprised you? Yes. The the scene that surprised me, there was actually two, but the one scene that surprised me was watching the director slowly erase this girl's identity. Cause that was my experience. And that is what I was able to really see on the screen. Because that's exactly how narcissistic abuse goes. It takes you, that's how coercive control goes. It takes you and your authentic self and strips you of it. And the person kind of makes you in their image of what they want you to be, like a character. That was very well depicted in the film. What was your favorite part or your favorite scene from the movie? ⁓ I I I ask this question, I ask ⁓ I ask everyone who I meet and who watch I love you my narcissist because I'm very curious because I get I get or we get ⁓ a very mixed ⁓ type of answers. Right. Yeah, and it changes for us as well. Like one time we watch it and say, ⁓ this is the best scene. And then you watch it another time say, ⁓ this actually this is really good. The mother in law scene, that was one scene that I was like, that, first of all, I've been in that scene. And it shows you that it's not just one person abusing you. There is a system that supports that person's abuse. It could be that person's family, their in-laws, it could be the people in a company, it could be people in a government, it could be, you know, so so I think that I love that scene. ⁓ and I think the last scene is also one because what it did is it shows you how valuable our choices are, how valuable our agreements are. And when we're preyed on by predators and abusive people, there's always a cost. And so that scene kinda hit me a little bit and I had to kind of sit with it because I was like, man. Like she was set up in the way that she was set up and now she's she's holding the bag, so to speak. One thing is imp is very interesting when when I watch a ⁓ I watch a movie is that some movies challenge challenge ⁓ me and my ⁓ perspective. Mm-hmm. I don't know if we could achieve that with I love you my narcissist, but did anything challenge you and your prof your professional ⁓ did challenge you and your professional ⁓ perspective? I think what it challenged and you know it might not be a challenge to change your mind. It's really a challenge to continue going forward and to go harder. Because when you see this kind of film, this this film film and I've had people who've watched it who have used my link to watch the film reach out to me and say, ⁓ my gosh, I saw myself in this character. It pushes me to go, it challenges me to go harder with continuing to talk about this. It's almost like a snowball effect. It's taken years and years and years for people to be able to start talking about this for it to be more mainstream in terms of having being in conversation. For there to be laws that are now starting to make some movement with coercive control laws where people can, you know, go to court to get repayment for the damages that they've experienced. So for me, it's just like you like you said, Stephanie. I it's it's like press the gas, get louder, keep going, because That's the only way that things are going to change. That's the only way that laws are gonna be put into place. That's the only way that there's gonna be any accountability. Yeah, maybe it's also ⁓ part of it, part of being allowed might also be to find different vocabulary that works for different kinds of people so that it really clicks for as many people as possible. Yes. I mean, part of this is also why we decided to combine documentary and fiction so that maybe for people that a pure documentary doesn't resonate with that strongly. Or ⁓ f pure fiction doesn't resonate that strongly because it's just it would never happen to me. Maybe that combination then could click for them and they can see, ⁓ I guess I've I might even have experienced this myself. And it could happen to me. Yes, yes. And you know, that's an interesting point because Ali, you were talking a while ago and you said there's there's been films, you know, with with narcissistic abuse that haven't named it as narcissistic abuse. And I do think there's something To like you can go back into like all kinds of films and go, that was a person who was experiencing narcissistic abuse, but it was a thriller. It was a horror movie. It was, you know, and so people didn't associate what they were seeing on screen with that particular kind of predation. But the fact that you all combine those two things to be able to have the play-by-play of, okay, this is the love bombing phase, and this is when they're being devalued. help to be able to give language real time in the film to ⁓ what we were seeing with the characters. And so I thought that was really brilliant, to be honest. I wanted to ask you, Kimberly, ⁓ if a survivor and someone who is in a narcissistic relationship or in a toxic relationship tonight watches the movie I love you my narcissist. What do you hope they take away? The first thing that I hope they take away is that they're not crazy. And they're not making up what they experience, that what they experience is real, it's valid, and they can recover from it. And I am an advocate for going no or low contact, getting away and getting your body out of that environment so that you can heal and repair. Okay, amazing. And one of the main reasons we made I love in my narcissist is because. Additionally that we wanted to give the survivors the hope to we to show the survivors that they are not alone and to to help them better understand the the the the dynamics and what they are going through. One of the other main reasons was that we wanted we we we wanted people who are unfamiliar with this topic, with such relationships, who say, Yeah hey, it won't happen to me, who say ⁓ This is too obvious that this person is like this or so. We want these these people to also understand and and realize that it can happen to anyone. Yes. So ⁓ so I ⁓ what do you think people unfamiliar with this topic can take from take away from this film ⁓ after they watch it? They can take away ⁓ the reality that who they allow in their lives and who they get connected with Can change their whole life. And because of that, because yeah, I will say, I went through this, I got training, I got a certification, I studied all these things, and I thought, I'll never get in this situation again. I'll never have anybody fool me again with all that information. I didn't realize that people who do films, people who are therapists, counselors, coaches, actually have a target on your back. Because the narcissist or the abuser gets a a high sense of power to be able to fool someone who even has studied and knows these tactics and patterns. So people can take away from this that no matter how much information you have, people who have done this for a living, I call it professional con artists. Anybody can be fooled, anybody can be duped, and you're our responsibility. where we are accountable moving forward now that we've learned these things is to be as wise as possible with the relational dynamics that we get into and what partnerships we form and who we go into business with, who we go into life partnership with, ⁓ because it can change your whole life. It's not just we're out here having a good time, you know, I'm I guess I'm back in the dating scene. And you just have to be very wise and you have to be very aware. And that doesn't mean that you have to walk around being suspicious of everyone, but you have to know that these predators are out here and they are looking for people who've already gone through this, who are more susceptible to it, who have more ⁓ you know, vulnerabilities. And own that you have that and understand your own patterns that fall into those types of things. And I like that you're saying that because that also implies for every for every person that We're on a journey to learn more about ourselves, about other people, about our relationships. So like it's not just we reach one level and then it stops. We have everything figured out, but it's a constant process. Also because our boundaries are changing and we are changing. So I think that's a nice sentiment in that in there. Yeah. Yeah. We are growing and changing and it's okay. If you fall down, get back up. If you have another situation happen, learn from the cause they don't ever come exactly the same. You go for one situation and the person presents these patterns in a different way. And sometimes that can be disarming. So if you happen to get into another relationship, that's another thing you asked, Allie. What can people take away? If you happen to find yourself in another relationship, or you discover that, ⁓ my goodness, my sister or my brother treats me this way. Or, you know, that boss that I was with or that coworker, they treat me this way. Just know that it's okay for you to continue to learn. It's not like that makes you any less, you know, you're you're in the process of becoming your authentic self. And you have to learn the the things about you that make you more likely to believe things about people. And that's not to blame anyone. It's just we all have patterns that we learned from our childhood that we have to start. disconnecting from and coming out of agreement with. Yeah. I am curious to know if someone listening today and is struggling in a toxic relationship, what's one thing you'd like them to remember from this conversation? That they don't have to be strong all the time. They can admit that they need help. They can admit to safe people that what's happened to them. They can tell the truth. I think a lot of what we as survivors struggle with for a host of reasons is having to hold it all together and feel like we have to cover it up and hide. And that keeps people from getting to the right resources and to the right support. That's what I think a film like yours has the opportunity to do. It helps to give people a a visual of what narcissistic abuse looks like so they can come out of hiding. And I think that that is what will happen and continue to happen with films like the ones that you do because the ⁓ they don't have to go through the discovery of what they've been through in a public way. And so they can start to then reach out to folks who can support them through the process. And I think that's a that's an important thing for all of us to know. You don't have to have it all together. You don't have to hold it all together and be perfect. You don't have to pretend anymore. A big part of this is coming out of hiding and starting to tell the truth so that you can heal. Beautifully said. Beautifully said. Yeah. I think that's also resonating with a lot of people that are gonna watch it. Maybe that helps for a little bit of feeling already, just the way you phrase that. I want to come to the end of this conversation with one specific question that interests me more than anything else because I'm someone who likes to to get to know people, to to understand their story, to understand their perspectives. And because every single one of us has a story. We have We have saddest stories, we have happiest stories, we have romance stories, we have we have ⁓ all stories from from beautiful to uncomfortable stories. So what is your one story or personal experience or a movie that changed the way you see people? Hmm, that changed the way that I see people. Or even that they change the way that you see the world. Well, what I will say from my experience. Them. And I've I'm gonna use the the the the the book from Victor Frankel, Man's Search for Meaning. Because this is part of my story. That even in the most dire situations and even in the darkest places, there are things that you can look around and be grateful for. Man's Search for Meaning was all about a Holocaust survivor who started to see acts of kindness. In the middle of concentration camps. And for me, narcissistic abuse survivors are some of the kindest, most resilient, most heart-connected people I've ever met. I mean, when someone tells me they've been through narcissistic abuse and they've held on to their heart, the person to couldn't take that from them. He couldn't couldn't steal that from them. And they still have it intact. There's something so profoundly beautiful about a person who goes through this kind of experience and can and comes out of it, still caring about people, having a deeper compassion for people's humanity. ⁓ that is a part of my story. That's how I feel. I believe I comfort people and hold space with people with the compassion that I received coming out of this experience. It's given my life meaning. That's why that book is so, you know, ⁓ that story from Victor Frankel is so imperative to me because I found meaning in this experience with narcissistic abuse. And I will for the rest of my life be championing ⁓ survivors. Very nice. Very nice. Thank you so much, Kimerli, for joining us on Beyond Our Stories, ⁓ the the very first podcast series of Alepsin Estream. for ⁓ whoever is listening or watching, if today's conversation resonated with you, remember that every story has a beginning. Many of the stories that inspire this conversation can be discovered on Alepsin's stream. A created home for powerful stories from around the world that make us think, feel, and see life from a different perspective. If you'd like to continue the journey, visit www.org. AC-stream.com, discover your next story, and become part of the community that believes great stories don't end when the credits roll. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to follow the show, leave a review and share it with someone who might need to hear today's conversation. Until next time, take care of yourself and never stop exploring the stories that shape us. And have a wonderful day. Thank you, Kimberly. Thank you. A new episode of Beyond Our Stories comes out every Thursday. Subscribe to be part of the next conversation, and if this one stayed with you, we'd love to hear your thoughts in the comments.