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#108 Jason Flom with Clemente Aguirre · Wrongful Conviction

0:02
Speaker 1: Clemente Shorty Aguire grew up in Honduras, but in two
0:05
Speaker 1: thousand and one, when rival street gangs demanded that he
0:07
Speaker 1: pick aside or die, he found himself with no choice
0:10
Speaker 1: but to run. He escaped to the United States, crossing
0:13
Speaker 1: our southern border illegally, and ultimately he found work as
0:16
Speaker 1: a cook, living in Seminole County, Florida, in a trailer park,
0:19
Speaker 1: where he formed friendly ties with various neighbors. But on
0:23
Speaker 1: June seventeenth of two thousand and four, Shorty was hanging
0:26
Speaker 1: out into the wee hours of the morning when he
0:27
Speaker 1: went to his friend Cheryl Williams's trailer to grab a beer,
0:30
Speaker 1: and there he found himself inside of a gruesome crime scene.
0:34
Speaker 1: The trailer had been ransacked and was covered in blood.
0:37
Speaker 1: Cheryl and her mother Carol had been stabbed repeatedly and
0:41
Speaker 1: were dead. He checked the bodies for signs of life,
0:43
Speaker 1: thereby inadvertently tampering with the crime scene. Knowing that nothing
0:48
Speaker 1: would bring them back, and fearing deportation or worse, he
0:51
Speaker 1: chose to stay quiet initially, but later that day Clemente
0:54
Speaker 1: came forward about his discovery his immigration status. An unwitting
0:58
Speaker 1: crime scene tampering made him a prime suspect, and with
1:02
Speaker 1: the deadly combination of an ineffective public defender and the
1:05
Speaker 1: prosecution's tunnel vision, Clemente was convicted and sent to death row.
1:10
Speaker 1: In this episode, recorded at the Innocent Network conference in Atlanta,
1:13
Speaker 1: we speak with Clemente, Shortia Giri, and one of his
1:16
Speaker 1: lead post conviction attorneys, Maria Deliberado, who, along with a
1:19
Speaker 1: list of mostly pro bono private council would properly reinvestigate
1:23
Speaker 1: the crime and test the one hundred and ninety seven
1:25
Speaker 1: pieces of crime scene evidence that had never been tested
1:28
Speaker 1: for DNA, ultimately excluding Clemente. They even found new evidence
1:33
Speaker 1: that would lead to the identity of the woman who
1:35
Speaker 1: was almost certainly the true perpetrator and who confessed to
1:39
Speaker 1: the crime on numerous occasions. Cheryl's own daughter, Samantha Williams.
1:43
Speaker 1: Shorty spent over fourteen long years in prison, most of
1:47
Speaker 1: it on death row, for a crime he simply did
1:50
Speaker 1: not commit. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction.
2:04
Speaker 1: Today's show is going to take you on a journey
2:08
Speaker 1: that you will probably never forget, and not because of
2:13
Speaker 1: anything I'm going to say, but because of the story
2:15
Speaker 1: you're going to hear. And today we have as our
2:20
Speaker 1: very special guest, Clemente aka Shorty Agia from Honduras, right,
2:27
Speaker 1: who was wrongfully convicted in Florida the double murder and
2:32
Speaker 1: who served fourteen years and four months on death row. Shorty,
2:37
Speaker 1: welcome to Wraful Conviction.
2:39
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
2:40
Speaker 1: As I always say, I'm sorry you're here, but I'm
2:42
Speaker 1: happy you're here. So you know how that goes, and
2:44
Speaker 1: with him is one of his incredible we'll just call
2:47
Speaker 1: it what it is, dream team of lawyers, Maria Deliberado,
2:51
Speaker 1: which is a great name for lawyer, by the way,
2:54
Speaker 1: not for nothing. It's perfect. And so Maria, welcome to
2:59
Speaker 1: RAF Conviction.
3:00
Speaker 3: Thank you, happy to be here.
3:02
Speaker 1: So Shorty, you were sort of a star in your
3:05
Speaker 1: native country, right, I guess.
3:08
Speaker 2: So you can say that I was very likable, friendly,
3:13
Speaker 2: plays soccer. When I'm singing competition representing in the school.
3:18
Speaker 1: I was told it was like the American Idol of Honduras.
3:21
Speaker 1: Is that right? Yeah?
3:22
Speaker 2: It were called championships and it was between the school
3:25
Speaker 2: so it was knowledge, it was dancing and it was singing.
3:29
Speaker 2: So I performed and I want the first place.
3:32
Speaker 1: Wow, And how old were you?
3:34
Speaker 2: I was ten years old.
3:35
Speaker 1: Ten years old, so amazing start to a crazy journey.
3:39
Speaker 1: And is it true that as a result of you
3:42
Speaker 1: winning this competition, the gangs kind of left you alone
3:45
Speaker 1: for a while, right, for.
3:46
Speaker 2: A little bit, since Sia was going to school those times.
3:50
Speaker 2: It really wasn't Di Stronos Again, in that period of
3:54
Speaker 2: time when growing up and going to high school, I
3:57
Speaker 2: was well known because I played soccer there. But my
4:00
Speaker 2: problem was I live in a neighborhood with a rival gang,
4:05
Speaker 2: and I play and go to school with the other
4:08
Speaker 2: gang had power off. So it was very controversial because
4:12
Speaker 2: one would say I belonged to one and the other
4:15
Speaker 2: one would say I belong to the other one, which
4:17
Speaker 2: it wasn't the case.
4:18
Speaker 1: And in fact, you were able to belong to neither
4:20
Speaker 1: of them because of the status that you enjoyed being
4:23
Speaker 1: sort of this celebrity in your area.
4:24
Speaker 2: Right basically, and because my mother too, she didn't play.
4:29
Speaker 2: And I have this select group of friends. It was
4:31
Speaker 2: seven of us, and it didn't attract to us anything
4:34
Speaker 2: about no game at all.
4:36
Speaker 1: But then, as I understand it, when you got a
4:39
Speaker 1: little older, the gangs, you were going to join the
4:41
Speaker 1: gang or get killed basically, right.
4:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, they told me they weren't playing. I was harassed
4:47
Speaker 2: and put guns in my face. I live in a
4:51
Speaker 2: neighborhood full of amster teens and I got to go
4:56
Speaker 2: to school where the eighteens lived. So when I get
5:01
Speaker 2: out of the territory from the thirteenth, the eighties grabbed
5:04
Speaker 2: me and made me undress in public to see if
5:08
Speaker 2: I didn't have tattoos belonging to the other game.
5:12
Speaker 1: Ultimately, you decided you had to leave because your life
5:15
Speaker 1: was in danger, right, But what was it that made
5:17
Speaker 1: you Because that's a big step to leave your country,
5:20
Speaker 1: and it's a very important story to tell right now,
5:22
Speaker 1: especially right with what's going on in this country, because
5:25
Speaker 1: you had a crazy journey ahead of you. But what
5:27
Speaker 1: was it that happened?
5:28
Speaker 2: Well, it was in two thousand and one January of
5:33
Speaker 2: February around there. I was with my Beyonce to be
5:38
Speaker 2: at a moment and the taxi pull up in front
5:42
Speaker 2: of my house. I'm sitting down outside and they got
5:47
Speaker 2: this raincoat, this long rail black coat, and put an
5:51
Speaker 2: AK forty seven and put it in my face. The
5:54
Speaker 2: drivers stepped down and say, we ain't playing no more.
6:00
Speaker 2: TikTok TikTok. In that particular moment in time, my mom
6:04
Speaker 2: came out at the door and say, what you're doing.
6:08
Speaker 2: I said, Mom, go inside. What good dude, She is
6:12
Speaker 2: out here and I got to gone on my page
6:14
Speaker 2: and my girlfriend is holding me for their life and
6:16
Speaker 2: I'm like, come down. So they left, and then you say,
6:21
Speaker 2: TikTok TikTok mean the clock is running. You need to
6:24
Speaker 2: tie up and join all else. In December, a few
6:29
Speaker 2: months back, they killed one of my best friends because
6:32
Speaker 2: he didn't want to join AH. They killed him on
6:36
Speaker 2: December twenty, two thousand, so it was very, very scary.
6:45
Speaker 2: My mother said, you go to your grandma. They sent
6:48
Speaker 2: me to Nicaraga and then Nicaragua is no place to live.
6:51
Speaker 2: It's like it's more poverty. They wasn't Honduras. So in
6:56
Speaker 2: two thousand and two, my sisters came from the United
6:58
Speaker 2: States already with her residence and we went from there.
7:01
Speaker 2: I need to come to the United States. I cannot
7:03
Speaker 2: live in Nicaraga for poverty. I cannot live in my
7:06
Speaker 2: native country because if I don't join again, they will
7:09
Speaker 2: kill me. So the only way I got out of
7:13
Speaker 2: here is go to the United States.
7:17
Speaker 1: Already, everything you've been through is enough for someone to
7:20
Speaker 1: go through. But this isn't even the beginning. How did
7:23
Speaker 1: you get from Nicaragua all the way to eventually swimming
7:26
Speaker 1: across the Rio Grande.
7:28
Speaker 2: I came to Mexico and I buy some papers and
7:33
Speaker 2: I learned a national antern of Mexico and history. I
7:37
Speaker 2: lived there for a couple of months, and I flew
7:42
Speaker 2: to Mexico City and there to New Laredo, and from
7:46
Speaker 2: there I went to a bar where when I got in,
7:50
Speaker 2: there as this coyot. Back then it was coyote. You say,
7:53
Speaker 2: it was no cartels and stuff like that, passing people
7:57
Speaker 2: and these coyote is to say, okay, you have sixteen
8:00
Speaker 2: hundred dollars on you, No, but I can call. So
8:05
Speaker 2: we arrange that here is going to pass me through
8:08
Speaker 2: all the way to Laddo, Texas. So he wanted me
8:11
Speaker 2: to swim with this they did. They go inside the
8:14
Speaker 2: tire like inner two right. So because he asking me,
8:19
Speaker 2: can you swim? And this moment in time, I feel
8:22
Speaker 2: like I'm the micro fellow the river. I didn't know
8:26
Speaker 2: how big real grand there really was. You see, I'm
8:30
Speaker 2: picturing a river that is just like my Grandma's.
8:33
Speaker 1: Like a stream.
8:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's something that you can pass in
8:36
Speaker 2: two minutes. I never thought I was gonna take me
8:38
Speaker 2: seventeen minutes almost to pass the river across that I
8:41
Speaker 2: almost drowned and there, you know. So he told us
8:46
Speaker 2: the take you close off, so we did, but we
8:49
Speaker 2: keep the underwear on. When he turned back and like,
8:52
Speaker 2: what you're doing. This isn't no gay shit, teed you
8:56
Speaker 2: underwere off because when you run you need to be dry.
9:00
Speaker 2: If you wed, it's gonna it's gonna hurt you and
9:03
Speaker 2: it's gonna sload you down. Believe me, I'm doing this
9:05
Speaker 2: for a long time. So we did. Put it in
9:08
Speaker 2: a plastic bat, put in my mouth, start swimming. We
9:12
Speaker 2: make it to the other side. Somehow, God only he
9:15
Speaker 2: could help me to pass through that river because it
9:17
Speaker 2: was so strong and we'd write off. He say, every
9:22
Speaker 2: paper that you have, every picture that you have, throw
9:25
Speaker 2: it away, every money that you have, throw it away.
9:29
Speaker 2: You cannot bring anything with you to the United States
9:32
Speaker 2: unless it's American dollars. I didn't have any American dollars,
9:35
Speaker 2: so you know, it was fifty pests of Mexico. So
9:39
Speaker 2: I throw it away, and he said, when I tell
9:42
Speaker 2: you so, follow me and run. When we make it
9:46
Speaker 2: to the other side, it was like ninety five people
9:48
Speaker 2: in there, you know, females, men, you own, people from Ecuador, Columbia,
9:52
Speaker 2: Costa Rica, you name it. So we saw immigration car
9:57
Speaker 2: pass by and then another one and you may say,
9:59
Speaker 2: I am waiting here. We're taken off. So I'm taking
10:05
Speaker 2: after him because he got my money. So I'm thinking
10:08
Speaker 2: I cannot let him go away with my money. You know,
10:11
Speaker 2: how am I going to make it to the other side.
10:13
Speaker 2: And this moment in time, I'm in the United States,
10:15
Speaker 2: but I haven't made it to civilization yet. We take
10:18
Speaker 2: off running. I wasn't thirty second and we hear helicopters,
10:21
Speaker 2: police cars, dogs and sirens saying stop stop, but we're
10:27
Speaker 2: going to shoot. We hear some shots at this moment
10:30
Speaker 2: in time, everybody has take off running two and I'm
10:33
Speaker 2: running right next to this guy. So I'm running and
10:38
Speaker 2: I'm asking him where to where to he didn't tell me,
10:41
Speaker 2: and where to because I think I can run him.
10:43
Speaker 2: I really believe I can run him. I'm so desperate
10:46
Speaker 2: to pass back. So it's some shots. I don't think
10:48
Speaker 2: they were shouting at us. I think they were shouting
10:50
Speaker 2: to the airth so people get scared or whatever. But
10:53
Speaker 2: that's all I hear in my neighborhood. So they really
10:56
Speaker 2: didn't call me anymore. It was I'm so used to
10:59
Speaker 2: or I was so used to. We make it to defence,
11:03
Speaker 2: and by the time we're going to jump the fence.
11:06
Speaker 2: I used to feel this hand in my hand and say, senor,
11:09
Speaker 2: please my son. It was this woman running next to
11:12
Speaker 2: me with a child in her hand, so I grabbed
11:15
Speaker 2: the kid. I give it to the next guy. I
11:17
Speaker 2: push her up and then I jumped. We went to
11:19
Speaker 2: a house call. My sister went to Houston. From Houston,
11:24
Speaker 2: came to my sister house March eighteen, six fifteen in
11:27
Speaker 2: the morning, three months, sixteen day after I was out
11:31
Speaker 2: of my house.
11:32
Speaker 1: Three months and sixteen days. Starting in Nicarago.
11:34
Speaker 2: Right, started from Honduras January second, all the way to
11:39
Speaker 2: March eighteen, two thousand and three.
11:41
Speaker 1: And you ended up in Florida in a little town.
11:43
Speaker 2: Right, yes, and Altamond Spring.
11:46
Speaker 1: So you end up in Florida. You got a job? Right?
11:49
Speaker 2: Yes? My bos saw me cording law and shaving some
11:54
Speaker 2: kind of palms, and he led the way I work.
11:56
Speaker 2: So he offered me a job as a discwatcher for
12:00
Speaker 2: a couple of months. And one day the cooks were
12:03
Speaker 2: really busy, so my mom teached me how to cooks.
12:07
Speaker 2: And I was six seven years old and everybody was busy,
12:11
Speaker 2: and they saw me cooking for me. So my boss
12:16
Speaker 2: saw and say, oh, okay, so you can cut, you
12:21
Speaker 2: can prep. I think you're going to be good in
12:25
Speaker 2: the prep line. So they may may do salads, bread
12:30
Speaker 2: and prep everything for the line cooks.
12:35
Speaker 1: So now you're moving up in the world a little
12:36
Speaker 1: bit at a time, right, going from the cutting trees
12:39
Speaker 1: or whatever, to the to the kitchen and now doing
12:42
Speaker 1: the prep work and starting to use your skills that
12:44
Speaker 1: you had developed as a cook. So things are looking
12:49
Speaker 1: up right, right? And where were you living?
12:52
Speaker 2: I moved from my sister and Ultimate Sprint into Longwood
12:55
Speaker 2: and the trailer park.
12:57
Speaker 1: And for thirty four, the trailer park is a very
13:01
Speaker 1: important role in this story. This is where the shit
13:04
Speaker 1: really hits the fan. Maria, do you want to sort
13:06
Speaker 1: of set the table here, because you've worked on this
13:08
Speaker 1: case for ten years, you know every single detail of
13:12
Speaker 1: what happened.
13:13
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I mean, I don't even really know where to
13:17
Speaker 3: start at. I mean, I used to be a prosecutor
13:18
Speaker 3: actually before I did criminal defense thirteen years ago. And
13:22
Speaker 3: so from that perspective, getting this case, the fact that
13:26
Speaker 3: they saw him as the suspect shut their eyes to
13:30
Speaker 3: any possible other alternative is to me the biggest travesty here.
13:34
Speaker 3: But I'll sort of set the stage, I guess, in
13:36
Speaker 3: the sense of he was living next door to the victims.
13:39
Speaker 3: It was a trailer part on Vagabond Way, and that
13:42
Speaker 3: was the name of the street, and he had socialized
13:45
Speaker 3: with them on more than one occasion.
13:48
Speaker 1: And this was a woman, her mother and her daughter
13:50
Speaker 1: living together in this trailer.
13:51
Speaker 3: That's correct, yes, And Clemente lived with two other men
13:56
Speaker 3: about his age. They were both cousins and so they
14:00
Speaker 3: were about the same age as the daughter. And her
14:02
Speaker 3: brother also lived in the trailer for periods of time,
14:04
Speaker 3: so sort of all people of his age Clemente at
14:07
Speaker 3: the time. Obviously you can hear him today speaking English.
14:10
Speaker 3: He didn't speak any English back then. He taught himself
14:13
Speaker 3: English in prison, which is a great story that he
14:16
Speaker 3: does need to tell at some point. How he taught
14:18
Speaker 3: himself English. It's one of my favorite stories that he tells.
14:21
Speaker 3: But he didn't speak any English then, but you know,
14:23
Speaker 3: he was able to communicate enough with them. They shared parties,
14:27
Speaker 3: they shared drinks, sort of a friendly neighborhood scene. The
14:32
Speaker 3: day that he was arrested, the mother and grandmother were killed,
14:37
Speaker 3: and the morning that their bodies were discovered, Mnde had
14:41
Speaker 3: gone there in the morning as he often did. He
14:43
Speaker 3: had been out with friends the night before. They always
14:46
Speaker 3: were known to have lots and lots of beer. If
14:48
Speaker 3: you look at the crime scene video, I mean there
14:50
Speaker 3: was just thousands and thousands of cans. And in Florida,
14:54
Speaker 3: alcohol is sold in all the grocery stores, but not
14:56
Speaker 3: until certain hours. So the grocery store wasn't open yet.
15:00
Speaker 3: And Clemente was, you know, in his early twenties. We
15:02
Speaker 3: can all remember what it's like to be able to
15:04
Speaker 3: party all night in your early twenties. And he had
15:07
Speaker 3: finished a hard day's work and was letting list with
15:10
Speaker 3: some friends and wanted to keep the party going. So
15:12
Speaker 3: he had just gone over there for a beer, as
15:14
Speaker 3: he had done many times. They had an open door policy.
15:17
Speaker 1: Sorry, people, let's start over to you climent day because
15:19
Speaker 1: this is such a nightmare. I mean, I've told your
15:22
Speaker 1: story so many times, but you actually lived it. So
15:25
Speaker 1: can you take us back to that day.
15:27
Speaker 2: I've been drinking all day. I'm going to go home,
15:29
Speaker 2: and I went home, but I want another beer, so
15:31
Speaker 2: I went inside and I didn't find this. So it's
15:33
Speaker 2: why I wait until daytime to go to the next
15:36
Speaker 2: door and ask for a beer, like I had done
15:39
Speaker 2: dozens the time before.
15:40
Speaker 1: What time was it when you went over.
15:41
Speaker 2: To It was like six something in the morning.
15:43
Speaker 1: Six in the morning, right, And so you went over
15:45
Speaker 1: there as you've done so many times, to scoop up
15:48
Speaker 1: a few more beers whatever, Right, what did you encounter
15:51
Speaker 1: when you got there?
15:53
Speaker 2: I turned knocked the door, but when I touched it,
15:55
Speaker 2: a push open, but it didn't open all the way.
16:00
Speaker 2: Strange because I've been in the house. I mean, if
16:03
Speaker 2: I want to give you a number over seven hundred times, right,
16:07
Speaker 2: so I know that door opened all the way and
16:11
Speaker 2: this time didn't. So I push it and it it
16:16
Speaker 2: didn't go further than what it was. So I look,
16:20
Speaker 2: it was like a little window and I saw Cherry
16:24
Speaker 2: Williams there body. This was the mom that was the mother, Yes,
16:30
Speaker 2: Samantha's mother, Yes, And Carol daughter.
16:34
Speaker 1: So you saw the body. So that's why they couldn't
16:36
Speaker 1: open the door because the body.
16:37
Speaker 2: Was blocking it was blocking it, yes, sir, right.
16:40
Speaker 1: And so now you see the body, but is there
16:42
Speaker 1: blood everywhere? Or what's the first thing that you.
16:45
Speaker 2: Her body is there. I just jump immediately inside without thinking, right,
16:52
Speaker 2: and she was too close to by the door, so
16:54
Speaker 2: I had to close the door and touch her dress
16:58
Speaker 2: looking for a pose. So I said, I'm too drunk
17:01
Speaker 2: that I don't feel it. So I picked her up
17:04
Speaker 2: and put it on the top of my legs into
17:05
Speaker 2: her neck because in the position she was, I couldn't
17:07
Speaker 2: touch her neck. And a moment and asked her to
17:11
Speaker 2: wake up, and she didn't.
17:15
Speaker 1: At this point, did you see there was blood and
17:17
Speaker 1: there was.
17:17
Speaker 2: Yes, everywhere. Now it's like a horror movie scene. So
17:23
Speaker 2: I'm asking somebody here, and I find the grandmother of
17:30
Speaker 2: her wheelchair almost under the table, so I want to
17:34
Speaker 2: touch her too. She was dead and I heard this
17:37
Speaker 2: noise and I'm asking somebody here, And with that I
17:41
Speaker 2: walked in the house and my footprints were there, and
17:45
Speaker 2: it was it was crazy.
17:47
Speaker 1: You found the murder weapon, right, I did?
17:49
Speaker 2: I did? I saw it when I saw the first victim.
17:52
Speaker 2: It was on the top of a beer box, but
17:55
Speaker 2: I didn't touch it. Then I touched until I heard
17:58
Speaker 2: the noise later that I was a dog there. But
18:02
Speaker 2: I know I'm crazy. I heard a noise. So anyway,
18:06
Speaker 2: I went and grabbed a knife like like a domas
18:11
Speaker 2: and uh, asking somebody here. And I walked and I
18:17
Speaker 2: went to Samantha's bedroom and everything was everywhere in the house.
18:22
Speaker 2: Chair would flowed down, clothes was everywhere. Everything was like
18:28
Speaker 2: a like a hura camp passed by there and then
18:31
Speaker 2: I walked to the next room, but I think went
18:34
Speaker 2: in there because I found Cherry already. So I said,
18:39
Speaker 2: oh my god, what am I going to do? So
18:42
Speaker 2: I took off running. They got running again.
18:57
Speaker 1: This is a really bad scenario on every level. I mean,
19:00
Speaker 1: you've got now the murder victim's blood on you, right,
19:04
Speaker 1: because you've been trying to help them, trying to check
19:06
Speaker 1: and see if they're alive. Obviously that was hopeless because
19:09
Speaker 1: they were dead. You've got your fingerprints on the knife
19:14
Speaker 1: right because you picked up thet I mean, it couldn't
19:18
Speaker 1: be any worse. You can't make it harder for your lawyers,
19:20
Speaker 1: right in this case. I mean, this is circumstantial levidence.
19:23
Speaker 1: It doesn't get much worse than that. And I'm sure
19:27
Speaker 1: when it eventually came to your arrest, they must have
19:29
Speaker 1: looked at it like, okay, well so you don't really
19:31
Speaker 1: have to work too hard on this one. We got
19:33
Speaker 1: this guy dead to rights? Well what did you do?
19:36
Speaker 1: So now you you ran? What did you run too?
19:39
Speaker 2: I ran to mahause I'm debating. Am I going to
19:44
Speaker 2: call the policeman? And the person I'm debating is, I
19:49
Speaker 2: know the police officer arrest you, they call immigration on you.
19:56
Speaker 2: It's a fact, so they I mean, and now I'm
20:03
Speaker 2: going to be deported for it. So I know I
20:06
Speaker 2: didn't do nothing wrong, even though everything sounds wrong so far,
20:11
Speaker 2: I didn't kill nobody anyway. So I took a shower
20:17
Speaker 2: and I'm like, I can't go police. I decided against
20:20
Speaker 2: it because I don't want to be deported. It was
20:22
Speaker 2: my fear. That was my fear, and like you didn't
20:26
Speaker 2: have fear because I'm running from my life. You know,
20:30
Speaker 2: I'm running for my life. I don't want to be
20:33
Speaker 2: killed in my country because I don't want to be
20:36
Speaker 2: a criminal.
20:39
Speaker 1: Right, what an irony? Right? You were running away from
20:41
Speaker 1: the criminals to come here to start a better life.
20:45
Speaker 1: And now now you're going to be accused of a
20:47
Speaker 1: crime that you didn't commit in the first place. And
20:50
Speaker 1: the options are all bad. Right, You're either going to
20:52
Speaker 1: go and get deported or you're going to get convicted.
20:56
Speaker 1: I mean, you must have known as well that things
20:57
Speaker 1: were looking pretty bad. If you call the police the
20:59
Speaker 1: first person that suspect. We know that in general in
21:02
Speaker 1: many cases anyway, the person who finds the body is
21:05
Speaker 1: the person they rely.
21:07
Speaker 2: But honestly speaking, I wasn't afraid they are going to
21:11
Speaker 2: be accused of the murder. I really wasn't, because I
21:15
Speaker 2: know I didn't do it. I was more afraid that
21:19
Speaker 2: if I completely going to put so what happened for sure.
21:22
Speaker 4: So, I mean, he can tell it as well.
21:23
Speaker 3: But the police eventually came because Samantha's boyfriend, which we'll
21:28
Speaker 3: later get to in more detail, actually was told by
21:30
Speaker 3: Samantha to come to the house that morning to get
21:33
Speaker 3: her laundry out of the dryer was the purported reason,
21:36
Speaker 3: or out of the washer, and to check on her
21:38
Speaker 3: mom and grandmother because she had a bad feeling. So
21:41
Speaker 3: he comes to the scene about nine am, he finds
21:44
Speaker 3: a bod easy of course, calls nine one one and
21:47
Speaker 3: then the police come.
21:48
Speaker 4: So by a couple of hours go by.
21:50
Speaker 3: The police are there and you know, normally they're knocking
21:53
Speaker 3: their canvassing the neighborhood. So they knock on the door
21:56
Speaker 3: of Clementeg's trailer, and first knock on the door, they didn't.
22:00
Speaker 4: They just said, we.
22:01
Speaker 2: Don't know anything, We don't know anything.
22:02
Speaker 3: And the police that knocked on his door nobody spoke Spanish,
22:05
Speaker 3: so they were all English speaking, and everybody in Clemente's
22:08
Speaker 3: house then only spoke Spanish, so there's also a language barrier.
22:11
Speaker 3: And then later in the day, I mean, Clemente can
22:13
Speaker 3: tell you why he felt compelled to come forward and
22:16
Speaker 3: then sort of how that backfired on him. When he
22:18
Speaker 3: came forward and tried to tell what happened, as you said,
22:21
Speaker 3: they immediately were like, great, we've got our guy, and
22:25
Speaker 3: they just started accusing him of murder pretty immediately and
22:29
Speaker 3: threatening him. There was a female Spanish speaking detective finally
22:33
Speaker 3: who came unseen, and Clemente wanted to talk to her.
22:36
Speaker 3: He felt like he could trust her with the full story.
22:39
Speaker 2: I came forward, I say, this is the best country
22:42
Speaker 2: in the world. I'm telling the truth, but they're going
22:44
Speaker 2: to investigate and they're going to find out the true eventually.
22:48
Speaker 2: So I went in. I say I found in there,
22:50
Speaker 2: you know. And soon I say that I need to
22:54
Speaker 2: speak with somebody who Spanish. And it was two people
22:58
Speaker 2: behind her telling her get him gidding. When I asked
23:03
Speaker 2: her to talk along, the investigator told me if you
23:08
Speaker 2: touch her, I'm fuck you up. I don't know what
23:11
Speaker 2: that would mean, but the fish that he put in
23:14
Speaker 2: my face told me everything I need to know. And
23:17
Speaker 2: I'm looking crazy and I say, no, no, I'm not
23:23
Speaker 2: going to do anything.
23:24
Speaker 3: It also probably should be noted Clemente got his shorty
23:27
Speaker 3: nickname because he's four foot eleven. So not exactly you're threatening,
23:32
Speaker 3: imposing criminal.
23:34
Speaker 1: But also you have such a sort of a sweet
23:36
Speaker 1: gentle face. I mean, like if I was three feet eleven,
23:38
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be scared of you, you know what I mean?
23:40
Speaker 2: Like right, So they bring me this investigator and soon
23:43
Speaker 2: I tell him about the first victim. He started kissing
23:46
Speaker 2: me or rape. I know I didn't break nobody. I
23:50
Speaker 2: know I didn't kill nobody. So I told him, well,
23:53
Speaker 2: he mentioned something like I don't need you to finish
23:58
Speaker 2: or have an orgasom in her. I just need you
24:01
Speaker 2: to penetrate her. And I got your DNA. I said,
24:05
Speaker 2: go for it. They my DNA because I know I'm innocent.
24:11
Speaker 2: But there was a swap there. They took your fingernails,
24:13
Speaker 2: then my fingernails, and she went to deep. I believe now,
24:17
Speaker 2: and nobody can take me out of this. She was
24:20
Speaker 2: trying to cut me.
24:21
Speaker 3: When they took his fingertiped swabs they do the scrapings,
24:24
Speaker 3: they like jammed it under his nail.
24:25
Speaker 2: She went way too deep. So you can see it's like,
24:28
Speaker 2: do you have to describe a little bit. You don't
24:30
Speaker 2: have to go to deep. They always dis short always
24:33
Speaker 2: because I work in the kitchen, so you know, I'm
24:36
Speaker 2: always with sure nails and short hair.
24:38
Speaker 1: Or you think they were trying to cut him, because.
24:41
Speaker 3: I think the perception that he tells the story was
24:44
Speaker 3: there was a lot of hatred and animosity from the
24:46
Speaker 3: police from the beginning towards him because he was not
24:49
Speaker 3: in this country legally, because they believed that he murdered
24:53
Speaker 3: these two women, one of them in a wheelchair, and
24:55
Speaker 3: so they just treated him. You know, this whole theme
24:58
Speaker 3: of the conference that we're attending is presumption of innocence,
25:01
Speaker 3: and there was none of that for Clemente.
25:03
Speaker 1: Right. And just for context, we're recording in a conference
25:06
Speaker 1: room in Atlanta where the Innocence Network conference is being held.
25:10
Speaker 1: So there's an amazing, amazing group here of over two
25:13
Speaker 1: hundred exannarees and hundreds of lawyers and social workers and activists,
25:19
Speaker 1: and it's an amazing, amazing place to be. And as
25:23
Speaker 1: you said, the theme is presumption of innocence, which is well,
25:27
Speaker 1: it's part of American jurisprudence, it's in the constitution, right,
25:31
Speaker 1: but it doesn't actually work the way it's supposed to,
25:34
Speaker 1: and certainly didn't in this case.
25:35
Speaker 3: Right.
25:36
Speaker 1: So they interrogate you, you didn't have a lawyer with you
25:38
Speaker 1: at the time.
25:39
Speaker 2: At that moment in time, I'll say, on your lawyer, right,
25:41
Speaker 2: do nothing.
25:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's a common thing. I mean, you'd be
25:45
Speaker 1: surprised how many people, even people who grew up in
25:47
Speaker 1: America who maybe have higher education degrees or whatever, they
25:51
Speaker 1: think the same thing. Well, if I just go in
25:53
Speaker 1: and tell the truth. But when you get an adversarial
25:55
Speaker 1: situation like you were in, it changes very quickly and
25:59
Speaker 1: people are not expecting it. You had no reason to
26:01
Speaker 1: expect it. But that's exactly what happened. And so at
26:05
Speaker 1: what point did did you become aware that you are
26:08
Speaker 1: now looking at the potential of being well arrested, tried,
26:11
Speaker 1: and convicted. I wish even sentenced to death.
26:15
Speaker 2: A week later, they come and take my fingerprints and
26:18
Speaker 2: they told me they found my left pump print in
26:22
Speaker 2: the knife, which I say, it's impossible, and say, how
26:26
Speaker 2: come you touched the knife? Yeah, but I'm right handed.
26:31
Speaker 2: I'm not going to grab a knife with my left hand.
26:34
Speaker 2: So they charmed me with murder and they told me
26:38
Speaker 2: we're going to be asking for the dead penalty, as
26:40
Speaker 2: the state to ask for the dead penalty, send you
26:42
Speaker 2: to death row.
26:44
Speaker 1: You've now been arrested. You're locked up in the local jail.
26:47
Speaker 2: Assume yeah, Seminal County.
26:49
Speaker 1: How long did it take from that point to go
26:52
Speaker 1: to trial?
26:53
Speaker 2: Twenty two months?
26:54
Speaker 1: So you're in jail for twenty two months, Yes.
26:55
Speaker 2: Sir, Seminal County jail in sam for got to be
27:00
Speaker 2: one of the most disgusting places to be at. The
27:04
Speaker 2: food is terrible because it's private. You see seven the
27:08
Speaker 2: county is private, so they run it the way they
27:11
Speaker 2: want to. They beat you up, they put you in
27:13
Speaker 2: a place, but it's the camera. They beat you up.
27:14
Speaker 5: Anything and all that happened to you, all that happened
27:19
Speaker 5: to me because you were the most notorious guy in
27:24
Speaker 5: the jail at this time.
27:25
Speaker 1: Right, your name is in the papers. You're accused of
27:27
Speaker 1: a double murder or an illegal immigrant. You got the whole, you.
27:31
Speaker 2: Know, because of this brown little guy who apparently killed
27:36
Speaker 2: two white people. By the time I got taken the trial,
27:42
Speaker 2: I was found guilty in one hour fifteen minutes maybe
27:47
Speaker 2: the jury the jury user.
27:49
Speaker 1: The jury was out for an hour and fifteen minutes.
27:51
Speaker 2: The trial last maybe four five days, I mean the
27:54
Speaker 2: criminal trial. The sentence in like another four days around
27:59
Speaker 2: there in Florida.
28:01
Speaker 4: The penalty phase in the guilt phase or separate.
28:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's two different trials basically.
28:05
Speaker 1: So who represented you a trial?
28:07
Speaker 2: The public defender's officer Semino Comi.
28:11
Speaker 1: And did they mount any kind of a defense.
28:15
Speaker 2: No, whatsoever, no defense. They did present a case on
28:20
Speaker 2: my he did it because he drunk, He did it
28:23
Speaker 2: because he did he didn't you know, I didn't do nothing.
28:26
Speaker 2: You're trying to kill me for something I didn't do.
28:28
Speaker 2: I didn't do nothing. I am not going to take
28:30
Speaker 2: this to me. It was not conceivable that I am't
28:35
Speaker 2: going to accept you calling me a killer. And I'm
28:38
Speaker 2: there and I'm not going to stand. Doesn't call you
28:40
Speaker 2: a liar, even you my attorney. I don't care. I
28:45
Speaker 2: didn't do nothing, so you don't believe me. After you
28:48
Speaker 2: he never believed me.
28:49
Speaker 1: Man.
28:49
Speaker 2: He didn't talk to nobody. I wasn't about until three
28:52
Speaker 2: thirty in the morning, with like thirty two people. He
28:54
Speaker 2: didn't talk to no one of them. What you were white,
28:58
Speaker 2: I wasn't a bar before we went to my friend's
29:01
Speaker 2: house right with the three thirty in the morning. Because
29:04
Speaker 2: back then they were saying I did a crying three
29:06
Speaker 2: something in the morning, you see, then they changed it
29:10
Speaker 2: to in the morning.
29:11
Speaker 3: They never really were able to pin down the time
29:14
Speaker 3: of death because they were relying on Samantha and Mark
29:16
Speaker 3: VanZant who said they saw the victims last alive at
29:18
Speaker 3: about eleven thirty and.
29:20
Speaker 4: Then they were found by Mark VanZant at nine.
29:22
Speaker 3: So the state was never able to really pin down
29:25
Speaker 3: the time of death, so they just fit it to
29:27
Speaker 3: the time when Clemente had said he went in there,
29:30
Speaker 3: but he did have a solid alibi until three thirty
29:34
Speaker 3: in the morning. He was at a local bar. It
29:36
Speaker 3: was actually me who went into that bar for the
29:39
Speaker 3: first time in probably two thy and ten or so.
29:44
Speaker 3: I mean, it's just inmfathomable to me that as a
29:46
Speaker 3: criminal defense attorney, your client tells you where they were,
29:49
Speaker 3: you know, in the preceding twenty four hours, and you
29:51
Speaker 3: don't even walk into the bar to see like, hey,
29:54
Speaker 3: was he here? Is there anybody that we can talk to?
29:57
Speaker 3: And I mean when I went in in twenty ten,
29:59
Speaker 3: so this is my you. Six years after the murder.
30:01
Speaker 3: It was a Saturday morning. I went in with my
30:03
Speaker 3: investigator and kind of like sat down at the bars,
30:06
Speaker 3: maybe eleven thirty.
30:07
Speaker 4: We didn't tell anyone we were coming.
30:09
Speaker 3: We just went and the bartenders like, you know, can
30:13
Speaker 3: I help you? And we said, you know, we're looking
30:15
Speaker 3: for Bob Buntruk, who was the owner. She said, oh,
30:18
Speaker 3: he's not here, you know, can I help you? I said, well,
30:20
Speaker 3: I represent Clemente Gary And it was like time stood still.
30:23
Speaker 3: I thought she was going to drop the glass she
30:24
Speaker 3: was holding. She was like, thank God, somebody is finally
30:28
Speaker 3: helping him. I know he didn't do it, and to
30:31
Speaker 3: walk into a place six years later and get that
30:34
Speaker 3: kind of reaction for me as the lawyer handling his
30:37
Speaker 3: case was just stunning, And she gave us a treasure
30:40
Speaker 3: trove of information that actually led us to who ultimately
30:44
Speaker 3: is the actual pillar in this case.
30:46
Speaker 1: So yeah, and that's I'm getting the chill just thinking
30:48
Speaker 1: about that. What a moment. It's very cinematic the way
30:50
Speaker 1: you described it, but yeah, I mean it must have
30:52
Speaker 1: really weighed on the people who knew you and knew
30:55
Speaker 1: that you didn't do it, to be walking around with
30:57
Speaker 1: that knowledge and yet knowing that you're on death row
31:01
Speaker 1: and felt helpless.
31:02
Speaker 3: You know, there was no avenue for them because there
31:04
Speaker 3: was no investigation by either the prosecution or the defense.
31:07
Speaker 3: I mean, it's just a complete collapse of the adversarials.
31:10
Speaker 2: This particular lady who talked to her name is Jamie,
31:14
Speaker 2: and she was across the street almost in front of
31:19
Speaker 2: Samantha's house until fight something in the morning and I
31:22
Speaker 2: haven't make it home yet.
31:24
Speaker 3: Yeah, so she actually ended up albying him until you know,
31:29
Speaker 3: five point thirty or and sort of albuying the house
31:31
Speaker 3: until then because.
31:31
Speaker 2: I haven't made it home yet she was from Peter
31:34
Speaker 2: resent Peace, so Peter used to leave him from of
31:37
Speaker 2: Samantha Williams house. So she stayed there with him, having
31:40
Speaker 2: a couple of dreams that night. And I'm still on
31:43
Speaker 2: my friend's house with other two friends. I haven't make
31:46
Speaker 2: it home yet.
31:46
Speaker 3: But the state just fit their time of death with
31:50
Speaker 3: the time he said he went in the house. Once
31:51
Speaker 3: he said he went in the house, they just had
31:53
Speaker 3: tunnel vision and that was it. They just fit all
31:55
Speaker 3: their evidence to comply with that.
31:58
Speaker 1: Wow. And we're going to get into Samantha minute, because
32:01
Speaker 1: this is one of those cases, and there's probably a dozen,
32:04
Speaker 1: maybe that we've profiled on the show, where all the
32:08
Speaker 1: signs were there that would have led even a cursory
32:11
Speaker 1: investigation to focus on someone else, but it was not
32:17
Speaker 1: necessary because they already had somebody that they wanted. They
32:20
Speaker 1: had somebody who was an easy target, and also somebody
32:23
Speaker 1: that apparently they didn't like, because they didn't like the
32:26
Speaker 1: fact that you were here illegally or whatever their personal
32:28
Speaker 1: biases were, you know. And it's worth noting too that
32:31
Speaker 1: in a case like this, because it's such a terrible
32:35
Speaker 1: violent crime, the idea that they would allow the perpetrator
32:41
Speaker 1: to remain free just so they can close the case
32:44
Speaker 1: and put your life, you know, which they viewed as expendable. Apparently,
32:49
Speaker 1: it's really another very serious thing to look at, right,
32:53
Speaker 1: I mean, the people in that community were in danger.
32:56
Speaker 1: They still are, right, And let's talk about that. Because Samantha,
33:00
Speaker 1: whose mother and grandmother were killed, she had been in
33:04
Speaker 1: and out of mental institutions dozens of times, right.
33:08
Speaker 3: In the upwards of like sixty I think she said
33:10
Speaker 3: at the post conviction hearing she was Baker acted, which
33:13
Speaker 3: is Florida's involuntary mental health commitment sixty times six zero.
33:18
Speaker 1: That is, folks, right. So I mean that's a full
33:21
Speaker 1: on revolving door in and out of mental institution. And
33:24
Speaker 1: the fact is that, as I understand it, she actually
33:29
Speaker 1: vocalized her plan when she was in the mental institution.
33:31
Speaker 1: She said that she was going to do this right
33:33
Speaker 1: in front of other people. Yeah, there was a she announced.
33:36
Speaker 3: It a couple of years before the murders. On one
33:38
Speaker 3: of her Baker acts. She had to be restrained because
33:40
Speaker 3: she was so violent in the hospital, kicking, spitting, throwing things,
33:44
Speaker 3: and she said, with her mother right next to her,
33:46
Speaker 3: I'll kill you. I'll kill all of you when I
33:47
Speaker 3: get out.
33:49
Speaker 1: I'll kill you. I'll kill all of you when I
33:51
Speaker 1: get out. And I guess she should have taken her
33:54
Speaker 1: a little more seriously, and then we wouldn't be sitting
33:58
Speaker 1: and having this conversation at all. And in fact, we
34:01
Speaker 1: know now too that her biological evidence was found all
34:05
Speaker 1: over the clime scene, right, not just because she lived
34:07
Speaker 1: there part time, but because she had actually done these
34:12
Speaker 1: gruesome deeds and then left her own blood for eight.
34:17
Speaker 3: Separate bloodstains within inches of the victim's blood throughout the trailer.
34:22
Speaker 3: None of Clemente's DNA.
34:23
Speaker 2: So I always though I stand up in court before
34:29
Speaker 2: my trial and asked for the DNA to be destined.
34:32
Speaker 2: They just told me, I need to be a specific.
34:35
Speaker 2: I don't know what is specific me. I thought, it's
34:37
Speaker 2: a crime scene. You want to investigate, you want to
34:39
Speaker 2: test everything, because this is when I interact with the
34:43
Speaker 2: Innercy Project, And they asked me, what do you want
34:45
Speaker 2: us to tell? I say everything, everything, her nails, the cheats, everything.
34:53
Speaker 2: So it was one hundred and ninety seven pieces of
34:56
Speaker 2: evidence with blood, which nobody tells. Ever, So pictured yourself
35:03
Speaker 2: accused of a crime, which have so many pieces the
35:08
Speaker 2: evidence to be testing for DNA. Neither the stay or
35:11
Speaker 2: you attorney tested, And you asked the George VOCALI please
35:15
Speaker 2: made my attorney tested. Then he said, you need to
35:17
Speaker 2: be a specific. Why would I be specific? Test everything? Right?
35:24
Speaker 2: I want to prove that I didn't do it. Maybe
35:26
Speaker 2: the killer left something behind. It was always always my argument,
35:32
Speaker 2: you are not going to find my blood there because
35:34
Speaker 2: I didn't do it. If you test it, maybe you
35:37
Speaker 2: find something else right, the accusum or rape, the accuracyme
35:41
Speaker 2: of killing, the acacimea, all of these things. I'm for eleven.
35:45
Speaker 2: If I start somebody one hundred and twenty nine times,
35:48
Speaker 2: I ain't going to have this splatter blood all over me.
35:51
Speaker 2: No one drop of splatter blood in me. Everything is contact.
35:56
Speaker 2: Like I say, it was my footprint on a round chair.
36:00
Speaker 2: They are all down. A mirror was down and it's
36:06
Speaker 2: not a footprint under it, it's on top of it.
36:10
Speaker 2: They found her then that mirror, she saying crouded. That
36:13
Speaker 2: mirror was on the wall when she left. But they
36:17
Speaker 2: found her blooded and ain't her fingerprint? No mind, so
36:25
Speaker 2: they didn't. There's nothing. So here I go to death
36:40
Speaker 2: Row no English. Beat up. They beating me up all
36:44
Speaker 2: the time because I don't speak English. Row and that
36:47
Speaker 2: row yeah, the guards, No, No, the emails the guards
36:54
Speaker 2: because they thought I was acting, so they thought it
36:58
Speaker 2: by beating me up, I will speak English. So I
37:04
Speaker 2: started taking newspapers from garbage to start reading. I don't
37:07
Speaker 2: know what I was reading. And then I asked for
37:10
Speaker 2: a Bible because I got a Bible in Spanish, you see.
37:14
Speaker 2: So I say, maybe with a Bible in English, I
37:16
Speaker 2: can translate, it's going to be more easier for me.
37:19
Speaker 2: And they send me a Penhouse letter Book number four,
37:23
Speaker 2: four hundred and seventeen pages. Penhouse letter Book. It's a
37:28
Speaker 2: foot book, you see.
37:31
Speaker 1: I didn't know.
37:31
Speaker 2: I didn't know what it was.
37:33
Speaker 3: The other inmates, so we asked for a Bible because
37:37
Speaker 3: you want to learn English, and the other inmates, I
37:40
Speaker 3: guess thought it would be funny or I'm not really sure,
37:42
Speaker 3: but that's how.
37:43
Speaker 2: That's what they give them, Penhouse letter Book number four.
37:47
Speaker 2: So that's what I got. That's what I started reading.
37:51
Speaker 2: So I stay at night when it was quiet and
37:53
Speaker 2: there was no light. That's why my eyes I all
37:55
Speaker 2: missedtop now and I gave the light from the hallway
38:00
Speaker 2: and I got a beat up dic scenario in Spanish
38:03
Speaker 2: and English, and I will go there and I will
38:06
Speaker 2: go with the letters. I read it seventeen times, the book,
38:11
Speaker 2: the Fat Book.
38:12
Speaker 4: Yes, so I taught himself English.
38:15
Speaker 1: That's amazing.
38:16
Speaker 2: But the seventeenth time, I'm start getting a roused. And
38:23
Speaker 2: I got so happy. Not because I got roused, you know.
38:27
Speaker 2: I got so happy because I got roused because I
38:29
Speaker 2: wasn't understanding what I was reading. But now I want
38:33
Speaker 2: to prove to my mother that I didn't do this.
38:36
Speaker 2: And I started writing letters. One hundred and seventy five
38:39
Speaker 2: letters I wrote. I wrote, Oprah, I said, I don't
38:44
Speaker 2: know who you are, but they telling me you they
38:45
Speaker 2: could not television. Maybe you know somebody who can teest
38:48
Speaker 2: this evidence. They turny came me for something I didn't do.
38:52
Speaker 2: And next to it, I would put a letter in
38:54
Speaker 2: Spanish too, so it was somebody who speaks Spanish in
38:57
Speaker 2: my English? Was that bad? They can translated? One answered
39:02
Speaker 2: me back Innocent Prague of New York in Emerson Morrison
39:08
Speaker 2: in a Marrison from the Innocent Project. And I got
39:11
Speaker 2: to meet Maria. Remember I just have a pull defender.
39:14
Speaker 2: I didn't never have a private attorney. I don't know
39:16
Speaker 2: what it's like. And she told me she would never
39:20
Speaker 2: like to me, and that she will work hard, and
39:22
Speaker 2: that she thought it was something wrong in my case.
39:26
Speaker 2: They got some papers, were working and then we pushed
39:29
Speaker 2: for DNA. They allow us to test eighty two pieces
39:32
Speaker 2: of evidence.
39:32
Speaker 3: First, the first time, there's two drops of Samantha's blood,
39:36
Speaker 3: and then we asked for the rest. Of course, the
39:39
Speaker 3: state agreed to blood the first time, and then once
39:42
Speaker 3: Samantha's blood came back and they had evidence of her
39:44
Speaker 3: confessions which they withheld from us for anywhere from around
39:48
Speaker 3: two years or maybe longer, hard to say, they objected
39:51
Speaker 3: to any more testing. After two drops of her blood
39:53
Speaker 3: come back. She's admitted that she's killed her family. They
39:57
Speaker 3: object to more DNA testing, but it was granted, thankfully.
40:00
Speaker 1: And she confessed on a number of occasions to a
40:03
Speaker 1: number of different people.
40:04
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's somewhere around seven or nine. But
40:07
Speaker 3: this first one was a Baker act, one of her
40:10
Speaker 3: many Baker acts, where she had tried to burn the
40:13
Speaker 3: trailer down and sort of set herself on fire. She
40:15
Speaker 3: was like set some bedding on fire, and she told
40:18
Speaker 3: a neighbor who told the police that demons in her
40:20
Speaker 3: head had made her kill her family.
40:22
Speaker 2: She told her best friend Nikki and two separate occasions
40:27
Speaker 2: did she call her mother? When Nikki asked her, what
40:30
Speaker 2: did you do? I heard them doing any stubbing motion
40:35
Speaker 2: to her chest, her grandma Guy's tab in chest. According
40:40
Speaker 2: to the medical Salminar, So, I never seen this woman
40:46
Speaker 2: named Nikki in my life. I don't know her. She
40:50
Speaker 2: came forward to this day attorney and they sent her back.
40:54
Speaker 1: So they didn't want to hear it.
40:55
Speaker 2: Oh, they don't want to hear it. They say they
40:57
Speaker 2: got the killer. But she contact my defensitorneys and told
41:01
Speaker 2: them too. Wow. She testified it the conviction hearing.
41:06
Speaker 1: Kudus to her for not giving up right, because it
41:08
Speaker 1: would have been pretty easy for her to go to
41:10
Speaker 1: the police and say I want to talk and they
41:12
Speaker 1: say no, and then she goes, well, I try my best.
41:14
Speaker 1: What am I going to do? Right? But she actually
41:16
Speaker 1: took it to the next level and contacted view.
41:18
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we had been piecing it together who she
41:20
Speaker 3: was based on the police report, because we could tell
41:23
Speaker 3: that's who the person was in the statement that Samantha
41:26
Speaker 3: had made.
41:26
Speaker 1: The statement to So now they start trying to backpedal.
41:30
Speaker 1: Right Now, all of a sudden, they're like, wait a minute,
41:32
Speaker 1: We're going to stop cooperating and stop giving you access. Yes,
41:36
Speaker 1: And that's when the dream team really kicks into gear, right.
41:39
Speaker 1: I mean you had not just you and Nina, but
41:40
Speaker 1: Josh Dubin. Yeah.
41:42
Speaker 4: So that was at the retrial.
41:43
Speaker 3: So the post conviction hearing was done just by myself
41:46
Speaker 3: and Marie Palmer, who's my law partner now in our
41:48
Speaker 3: investigator Polly, and then Nina came down for the first
41:51
Speaker 3: two days of the evidentiary hearing in twenty thirteen. That
41:54
Speaker 3: was a two week hearing that we put on tons
41:57
Speaker 3: and tons of witnesses, all the DNA, all of the confession,
42:00
Speaker 3: and then we lost, of course at the circuit court level.
42:03
Speaker 3: And we knew that we always had the idea of
42:08
Speaker 3: getting a bigger team on this case. You know, It's
42:10
Speaker 3: one thing when lawyers from my office at the time,
42:13
Speaker 3: you know, stand up before the flour spring court and
42:15
Speaker 3: say this is a travesty. It's quite another when we
42:18
Speaker 3: get the Innocence Project and private law firms and you know,
42:21
Speaker 3: people really fighting for this. It makes a difference. So
42:23
Speaker 3: that was always our plan, and Nina was of course
42:26
Speaker 3: amazing and instrumental in getting us help. So we got
42:29
Speaker 3: lawyers from Alabama to do the appeal with us.
42:32
Speaker 4: They did the appeal at the flour Spring Court.
42:34
Speaker 3: We all worked on it and we got the reversal
42:36
Speaker 3: in twenty sixteen, and that's when sort of the trial
42:39
Speaker 3: team really came back together. And so my role sort
42:43
Speaker 3: of formally ended in twenty sixteen, and then I just
42:46
Speaker 3: consulted with the trial team and talked to Clemente every
42:49
Speaker 3: Sunday for two and a half years while he was
42:51
Speaker 3: waiting his retrial.
42:52
Speaker 2: Well, let me tell you something. We have a DNA
42:56
Speaker 2: a confession for the perpetrator who DNA was found in
42:59
Speaker 2: the cricy, which is say she wasn't there, red fresh,
43:03
Speaker 2: red bright. And then we have a judge. We have
43:08
Speaker 2: a judge who keep denying. Now we don't understand what
43:12
Speaker 2: these judgeph followed the law. Right later we find out
43:15
Speaker 2: that she's got thetagenda against me, using my case to
43:18
Speaker 2: get a promotion. She has stayed a sixty seventh page
43:21
Speaker 2: drueling against me and brag about it.
43:24
Speaker 1: So she was trying to get elevated.
43:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, and used his case, used my case about it.
43:29
Speaker 3: Yeah. She eventually was recused and did not preside over
43:33
Speaker 3: the retrial. That's when Josh came on, Josh Stephens. He
43:36
Speaker 3: did the jury selection and in front of her first
43:39
Speaker 3: time in February of twenty eighteen, and her complete lack
43:43
Speaker 3: of knowledge of the law. I mean, Josh just pointed
43:48
Speaker 3: it out and we were able to recuse her from
43:49
Speaker 3: the case. And then the trial started in October of
43:53
Speaker 3: twenty eighteen with quite a team Josh picking the jury,
43:57
Speaker 3: Maury Parmer who's my law partner, Lindsay Me, Dylan Blackbrooks Proctor,
44:02
Speaker 3: I mean, just Jeff Howitz. There was like, at one
44:05
Speaker 3: point Clemente said, what did you tell them?
44:07
Speaker 1: Oh?
44:08
Speaker 2: Man, it was it was too many of them, right,
44:10
Speaker 2: And I'm like, hey, yo, yo, making me look bad
44:12
Speaker 2: right here. Some of you need to go see down
44:15
Speaker 2: the bag, you know, said.
44:16
Speaker 3: Some of them on the prosecution side, to make sure
44:18
Speaker 3: that it was too many.
44:20
Speaker 2: To me, I don't want to look like, why this
44:23
Speaker 2: guy got so many lowy, he got money, he might
44:25
Speaker 2: have done it, so I don't want them to think
44:27
Speaker 2: like that.
44:27
Speaker 1: Ever, Wow, you went from having too little help to us, Well,
44:31
Speaker 1: you were thinking too much help. But it was not
44:32
Speaker 1: the case. And Josh is an amazing guy. I mean
44:35
Speaker 1: he It's funny because Nina originally introduced us, I don't
44:38
Speaker 1: know whatever, a couple three years ago and he says
44:42
Speaker 1: to me, you know, I'm a chury selection expert. I go, yeah,
44:46
Speaker 1: he goes, I can look in your eyes and see
44:48
Speaker 1: your soul. I was like, so, you know, he's ay,
44:54
Speaker 1: here's that guy. He's amazing. Yeah, And he was keeping
44:57
Speaker 1: me posted then when he was down there at Florida Argua,
44:59
Speaker 1: we were talking and he was giving me the updates
45:01
Speaker 1: and he was really Yeah. It was a very intense time,
45:05
Speaker 1: even for me watching from the sidelines from a thousand
45:07
Speaker 1: miles away. So let's get to the good stuff, okay.
45:12
Speaker 1: So then finally your conviction is overturned.
45:15
Speaker 2: On now October twenty seven, twenty sixteen, but they kept
45:19
Speaker 2: you on death row anyway until and then back to
45:22
Speaker 2: the county, back to the.
45:23
Speaker 1: County jail, right. And it's amazing because you know, I
45:26
Speaker 1: talked to give speeches a lot, and I talked to
45:28
Speaker 1: civilians all the time about this work and about cases
45:32
Speaker 1: like yours, and almost everyone says, but I understand the
45:36
Speaker 1: convictions overturned, you go home. That's not the way it works.
45:40
Speaker 1: I mean, sometimes it is, but in your case it
45:42
Speaker 1: certainly was not, and the conviction was overturned. They're going
45:44
Speaker 1: to retry you because they didn't like losing.
45:45
Speaker 5: Right.
45:46
Speaker 2: Oh, immediately they say, same day, yeah, same day, they say,
45:51
Speaker 2: we are going to retry these I mean, this was.
45:53
Speaker 3: A unanimous reversal from the flour Stream Court in which
45:56
Speaker 3: the opinion said, no longer is a Garrey the creepy,
45:59
Speaker 3: shadowy figure to live next door. He's escapegoat for her crimes.
46:03
Speaker 4: That's seven justices of the.
46:06
Speaker 3: Flora Supreme Court calling Samantha the murderer and they're still
46:11
Speaker 3: trying him again.
46:12
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, yeah, I mean this is seven justices in
46:15
Speaker 1: the Deep South. Yeah, with a guy who doesn't have
46:19
Speaker 1: the same skin color as they do. I mean, they're saying,
46:21
Speaker 1: and in the strongest possible way, that this is not
46:24
Speaker 1: your crime, that this is a huge mistake. You heard
46:28
Speaker 1: those words. How did that feel?
46:29
Speaker 3: So the prison doesn't allow They require twenty four hour
46:32
Speaker 3: notice for calls, so we couldn't even tell him until
46:34
Speaker 3: the next day. So opinions come out every Thursday at
46:37
Speaker 3: eleven opinion came out. We knew we couldn't get a
46:39
Speaker 3: call to him, but we also knew it was going
46:41
Speaker 3: to be on the news, and so I know, I
46:42
Speaker 3: did an interview. I think Lindsay did too, and I
46:45
Speaker 3: was like, well, Monday, if you're listening, congratulations because we
46:48
Speaker 3: were going to get to talk to him until the
46:50
Speaker 3: next day.
46:50
Speaker 4: But guys on the row heard it.
46:52
Speaker 3: They called me, yeah, hey, Tody, they're banging on the
46:56
Speaker 3: bars and what.
46:57
Speaker 2: I think you want to I say, hold on and
47:00
Speaker 2: don't play like that because it's too it's too soon.
47:02
Speaker 2: It was six months, twenty days, so they take twenty
47:05
Speaker 2: two months in answering and don't play like that. Man.
47:09
Speaker 2: You know that's not funny. I'm serious, man. They say
47:11
Speaker 2: a funny name like your like by name, like the
47:14
Speaker 2: ones you have, so hey, listen up. My neighbors say,
47:18
Speaker 2: somebody say Jory want in new trial. Everybody go to
47:21
Speaker 2: the news and trying to find it. And I got
47:24
Speaker 2: a friend named Alex Alex Pagan who say, yeah, it's
47:29
Speaker 2: you Ogani page in seven point four and we went
47:31
Speaker 2: there and they were saying I gotta I won't.
47:36
Speaker 1: We have limited time left. But in the time that
47:38
Speaker 1: we do have. I want to get to the ultimate victory, right,
47:43
Speaker 1: So the immediately announce they're going to retry you. They're
47:46
Speaker 1: not done fucking with you yet. I can't think of
47:48
Speaker 1: a better way to say that. But now you've got
47:51
Speaker 1: the dream team, like we said, and you go for
47:53
Speaker 1: the new trial, and you want to take this one.
47:57
Speaker 3: Sure, we start in November. We had sort of a
47:59
Speaker 3: false star in February. We ended up getting rid of
48:02
Speaker 3: the judge who was clearly biased against him. Start in
48:05
Speaker 3: October with the new chief judge incredibly fair, promised both
48:09
Speaker 3: sides a fair trial, and totally delivered jury selections ongoing
48:12
Speaker 3: Josh is picking the jury. Two critical in court depositions
48:17
Speaker 3: occurred that really sort of crumbled the States case. One
48:22
Speaker 3: was the ex wife of Mark van Zant, who discovered
48:25
Speaker 3: the bodies. Two of our lawyers, Mary Palmer and Dylan Black,
48:28
Speaker 3: went to meet with her. She gave a remarkable story
48:31
Speaker 3: in an Affidavid that Mark had always told her that
48:34
Speaker 3: Samantha went out the window that night, the night of
48:36
Speaker 3: the murders. He had always alibied her, always said that
48:38
Speaker 3: she was with him all night. Turns out he was
48:41
Speaker 3: a liar. We had listened to about twelve hundred of
48:44
Speaker 3: his jail calls over the summer, in which he admitted
48:47
Speaker 3: that he was a liar. Mary Palmer did an in
48:49
Speaker 3: court deposition of Mark that was just masterful. It was
48:52
Speaker 3: like the climactic scene of a movie where he basically
48:55
Speaker 3: just admitted that he was a pathological liar and his
48:58
Speaker 3: credibility was done. The second one was Josh did a
49:01
Speaker 3: deposition of Samantha in court where she effectively said, I
49:06
Speaker 3: do a lot of things when I'm drunk. I guess
49:07
Speaker 3: it's possible I did this too, and.
49:09
Speaker 4: I don't remember.
49:10
Speaker 3: So between the actual murderer admitting under oath that she
49:15
Speaker 3: maybe committed this crime and her alibi witness admitting that
49:20
Speaker 3: he was a pathological liar and that she had gone
49:22
Speaker 3: out the window that night, their case was done.
49:29
Speaker 1: Were you in the courtroom when you were finally found
49:32
Speaker 1: to be.
49:32
Speaker 2: Yes, I was. I was numb. Ah, I pray. I
49:39
Speaker 2: always think God all w and to me it was
49:43
Speaker 2: like I had about her experience. You know, I was
49:46
Speaker 2: looking at myself and I'm always going to remember these
49:49
Speaker 2: I looking at me saying it over.
49:52
Speaker 1: Finally jury came in.
49:56
Speaker 4: No, so the state actually announced no.
49:58
Speaker 1: Prosper no pross, which is short for a Latin term
50:02
Speaker 1: that translates to quote, we shall no longer prosecute.
50:07
Speaker 3: They announced nor Pross. We didn't know what they were
50:09
Speaker 3: going to do. They had asked for extra time to
50:11
Speaker 3: think about it. Turns out they were getting an immigration
50:13
Speaker 3: hold put on him because they had never bothered to
50:15
Speaker 3: do that in the fourteen years that he was locked up,
50:18
Speaker 3: so that you know, he couldn't actually walk free from
50:20
Speaker 3: the courtroom, which we were able to rectify later getting
50:23
Speaker 3: him an immigration bond. So they had to put the
50:25
Speaker 3: icehold on them. But we still didn't know what they
50:26
Speaker 3: were going to do. We didn't know if they were
50:27
Speaker 3: going to continue to go forward. And they came in.
50:30
Speaker 3: Courtroom was full.
50:31
Speaker 4: We were all sitting there.
50:32
Speaker 3: Nina flew down or like you got to come. We
50:34
Speaker 3: think they're going to drop it. I mean, they had
50:36
Speaker 3: no way forward.
50:37
Speaker 4: Really.
50:38
Speaker 3: The state stood up and announced to nol Pross, and
50:42
Speaker 3: I know I crumbled into a ball, I think almost
50:44
Speaker 3: on the floor. I couldn't believe it, and the judge
50:47
Speaker 3: was so kind and kind of gave everybody a minute.
50:50
Speaker 3: I went up and hugged Clemente and we were all hugging,
50:53
Speaker 3: and then he wanted to.
50:55
Speaker 1: Speak, And do you remember what you said?
50:58
Speaker 2: Yeah? What did you say? I say, God send you
51:02
Speaker 2: angels so you feed, don't hear frogs, and you're angry.
51:06
Speaker 2: You have called upon me. And if I hear you,
51:10
Speaker 2: I will free you and I will glorify you. I
51:13
Speaker 2: will give you many years of life, and I will
51:18
Speaker 2: show you my salvation. And it sounds ninety one, fourteen,
51:22
Speaker 2: fifteen and sixteen. I think everybody will help me out,
51:27
Speaker 2: the ones who send me money, the one to make
51:29
Speaker 2: me look like a human being. And I say, you
51:33
Speaker 2: don't have an enemy in me from this humble legal immigrant.
51:38
Speaker 2: If I can forgive somebody, I forget whoever, don't drunk
51:40
Speaker 2: me because I want to live a better life.
51:47
Speaker 1: Wow. So I have one more question and then we're
51:51
Speaker 1: going to wrap up. I think I already know the
51:53
Speaker 1: answer to this question, but I'm going to ask, anyway,
51:55
Speaker 1: are you better about what happened to you?
52:00
Speaker 2: Angry? Better? Angry? Is what you ask?
52:03
Speaker 1: Bitter? Yeah? Better angry? Yeah, it's sort of a similar thing.
52:08
Speaker 2: Somehow. I think it's an injustice. It is. I know
52:12
Speaker 2: it's an injustice. Yeah, I can say I am angry,
52:19
Speaker 2: but I'm not hateful. You know. A long time ago
52:23
Speaker 2: I let that go because it was killing me. So
52:27
Speaker 2: the way I see it now is I just tried
52:29
Speaker 2: to adjust, man, and I get aggravated for things, maybe
52:33
Speaker 2: because I got stoke so many years ago. But I
52:36
Speaker 2: know I'm gonna get better. It will. It has to
52:40
Speaker 2: be to lead it, and it is.
52:45
Speaker 1: And it's great to see you here. I almost when
52:47
Speaker 1: you were talking about breaking down the corner when I
52:49
Speaker 1: was broke down myself at got a little lump in
52:51
Speaker 1: my throat. So the tradition here at Wrongful Conviction is
52:56
Speaker 1: that at the end of each episode, first thing I
52:59
Speaker 1: do is thank you both for coming and being here.
53:03
Speaker 1: Thank you having Maria, and of course Shorty. And then
53:07
Speaker 1: my favorite part of the show is this, because this
53:10
Speaker 1: is the part of the show where I get to
53:11
Speaker 1: stop talking and just listen. And so I would like
53:16
Speaker 1: to now turn it over to you for any final
53:20
Speaker 1: thoughts that you have. Again, thanks for being here and
53:23
Speaker 1: for everything that you're doing. And I wish you, you know,
53:26
Speaker 1: all the happiness in the world. And so Maria, why
53:30
Speaker 1: don't you go first, and then Shorty you can close.
53:33
Speaker 4: Sure.
53:33
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having us and for drawing
53:35
Speaker 3: attention to this case, and you know, obviously very important
53:38
Speaker 3: cause overall. I mean, I think just for the listeners,
53:43
Speaker 3: you know, like you said, if they end up on
53:44
Speaker 3: jurys like really listen, hold the state to their burden.
53:49
Speaker 3: But also when the exoneration happens and all the happiness happens.
53:55
Speaker 3: You know, Clemente has a life to live and he's
53:57
Speaker 3: trying to piece his life back together, and it's especially
53:59
Speaker 3: hard for him because he's not allowed to work right
54:02
Speaker 3: now because his immigration case is ongoing. You know, he's
54:07
Speaker 3: fortunate for the benefits and the donations of others, and
54:09
Speaker 3: that's something that we continue to rely on. So I
54:12
Speaker 3: know that Innocence Project is going to do some fundraisers
54:14
Speaker 3: for him. He does some speaking and people give him
54:17
Speaker 3: donations for that unfortunate that he and I get to spend.
54:20
Speaker 3: He lives three miles from my house now in a
54:22
Speaker 3: community for exoneries, so we see each other every week
54:26
Speaker 3: for laundry and groceries. But you know, any kind of
54:29
Speaker 3: donations that listeners are willing to do will have that
54:33
Speaker 3: set up pretty quickly. Just really supporting exoneries. It's great
54:37
Speaker 3: to do events like this conference that we're at, but
54:40
Speaker 3: making sure that you know, after the dust settles in
54:43
Speaker 3: their home, we continue to support them.
54:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for having me just stacking him back
54:51
Speaker 2: from there. Ukt out is not enough there for you
54:56
Speaker 2: after so many years incarcerated, and almost everybody toned that
55:01
Speaker 2: back on you. Family members, laws, friends, going away. We
55:07
Speaker 2: need medical, we need dental, you know, the mental health.
55:14
Speaker 2: But I always remember the three sides of this story, hers,
55:21
Speaker 2: his and the truth. They don't test evidence. I mean
55:25
Speaker 2: they don't want to find out the truth. That's simple.
55:27
Speaker 2: If it defended is so adamant to test the evidence.
55:30
Speaker 2: If you are an attorney at there and you client
55:33
Speaker 2: asking you to please test the evidence, maybe you should
55:36
Speaker 2: listen to him. He might be telling you the truth.
55:39
Speaker 2: So thank you for listening, and God bless you all.
55:49
Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you
55:52
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud
55:56
Speaker 1: donor to the Anesis Project, and I really hope you'll
55:59
Speaker 1: join me in support this very important cause and helping
56:02
Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to innosentsproject dot org
56:06
Speaker 1: to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like
56:09
Speaker 1: to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.
56:12
Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR
56:15
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56:18
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56:23
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava
56:26
Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one