Latest / The Refrigeration Mentor Podcast / Episode 290. Heat Reclaim Strategies with Andre Patenaude and Trevor Jones

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Episode 290. Heat Reclaim Strategies with Andre Patenaude and Trevor Jones · The Refrigeration Mentor Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker: I want to take a minute to talk about what refrigeration mentor training is all about. We are all about helping contractors increase profit. We help end users reduce bottom line costs and really helping technicians make more money. And our mission is to empower those contractors and technicians by equipping them with the, really the skills that they need and the knowledge that they need for success.
• 0:01
  Speaker: I want to take a minute to talk about what refrigeration mentor training is all about. We are all about helping contractors increase profit. We help end users reduce bottom line costs and really helping technicians make more money. And our mission is to empower those contractors and technicians by equipping them with the, really the skills that they need and the knowledge that they need for success.
• 0:01
  And what we do is we help contractors. By building customized training packages that work for their technicians, that work for their busy schedule to advance their skills in gauging them in continuing education and testing them. All these programs that we really do is really by the hands on approach, getting them to go out there and do.
• 0:01
  The field work. So they get tangible results and we are committed to getting you the results you're looking for. All our programs are online drip model. So I can meet with technicians or the refrigeration professional. I can coach them. I can mentor them and our team of professional really want to take your business, to the next level.
• 0:01
  So if you're a service manager, business owner or technician, reach out, head to refrigerationmentor. com or check out in the show notes, there's a book a call link and it doesn't matter where you're at in the world. We can help develop a program that's going to help you and your business be more profitable in the commercial refrigeration and aid vac industry.
• 0:02
  So if you're a service manager, business owner or technician, reach out, head to refrigerationmentor. com or check out in the show notes, there's a book a call link and it doesn't matter where you're at in the world. We can help develop a program that's going to help you and your business be more profitable in the commercial refrigeration and aid vac industry.
• 0:02
  Now let's get to the conversation goal.
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  Trevor: Welcome to the Refrigeration Mentor Podcast. I'm your host Trevor Matthews. And once again, always trying to find people from around the world to share their knowledge. And once again, I have my good friend Andre Patnoe from Copeland here and Trevor Jones from Henderson Engineering.
• 0:02
  Both of them are refrigeration professionals who care about, share knowledge, helping the industry grow. And we're going to be diving into heat reclaim potential for retail space heating. So if you're listening on the podcast, you might have to listen to it a couple of times. You know, if you're watching on the YouTube channel just pay close attention.
• 0:02
  Always, as I say, in all the all the shows that I do is take notes. Cause this, this is important, you know, write it down, reading it, writing it down again, because there's going to be a lot of information that we share. Especially every time I do it, Andre, I've done dozens of podcasts with them. I'm sure there's just so much knowledge being shared.
• 0:03
  Always, as I say, in all the all the shows that I do is take notes. Cause this, this is important, you know, write it down, reading it, writing it down again, because there's going to be a lot of information that we share. Especially every time I do it, Andre, I've done dozens of podcasts with them. I'm sure there's just so much knowledge being shared.
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  You can't absorb it all in one listen or one watch. So you might have to go back and watch this again, as always like it, share it, comment it on a different platforms you're on, because this is how more people find out about. Content like this to really get them to the next level. Trevor, what I would love you to do is do a quick introduction about who you are and a little bit about your role at Henderson Engineers.
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  Andre: Okay. Trevor Jones. I've been in the H-V-A-C-R industry for almost 25 years. Mechanical engineer.
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  Trevor: Okay.
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  Andre: I started more on the HVAC. Plumbing design side and then moved over to refrigeration. So I have a lot of knowledge on the heating side, especially.
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  Trevor: And so you do a lot of design work, so that's it because you're an engineer background, so you designed a lot of hydronic systems maybe, or just heating systems in general, like what kind of systems have you designed in the past?
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  Trevor: And so you do a lot of design work, so that's it because you're an engineer background, so you designed a lot of hydronic systems maybe, or just heating systems in general, like what kind of systems have you designed in the past?
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  Cause that's your role, right?
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  Andre: Yeah. Heating systems heating systems for things like grocery stores which tend to be more like gas fired rooftop units sitting on the roof.
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  Trevor: I work on Clonzo though. So I know all about them. And right now in Canada here, it's like minus 10 or minus 20 out with the windshield.
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  So I know all about it. I know all about it. It's like, awesome. Awesome. So Andre, most of my followers know who you are, but do a quick introduction of yourself.
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  Sure. Thanks, Trevor. Andre Patnode. I'm the director of solutions strategy with Copeland. It's, it's a business development role that has a lot to do with accelerating sustainable strategies.
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  A lot. CO2. We've had many conversations, Trevor, around CO2. Also, you know, get involved with a lot of the regulatory stuff, a lot of the stewardship, you know, industry events, presentations, stuff like that. Podcasts and working with customers and internal folks on on decarbonization and sustainable solutions.
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  A lot. CO2. We've had many conversations, Trevor, around CO2. Also, you know, get involved with a lot of the regulatory stuff, a lot of the stewardship, you know, industry events, presentations, stuff like that. Podcasts and working with customers and internal folks on on decarbonization and sustainable solutions.
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  Yeah,
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  no, it's always fun. Yeah. And definitely go check it. Just go on to the refrigeration mentor podcast and then search the channel, just write Andre in. You'll see a ton of CO2 ones that we did there. We did one on CO2 experts a few weeks ago. Oh, it's a couple of months now, I think on the high pressure valve, which you want to go listen to that.
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  You know what I mean? Because it's going to help. Grow your CO2 knowledge today. We're going to get into heat reclaim strategies. And this is what I talk about in our CO2 trainings all the time. If it's the intro or even an advance, because this is not new 20 years ago, when I was in the technician in the field, I was working on heat reclaim systems here in Canada because we, we use them a lot here, but it's not used as much around the world since.
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  CO2s came and I've seen more and more talk about heat reclaim since CO2 comes into the retail space than ever before. And I don't know if you guys noticed this as well, Trevor or Andre, but heat reclaim, heat recovery strategies are huge because over the last 30 years, we've been just shooting a lot of that out to the atmosphere, right?
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  CO2s came and I've seen more and more talk about heat reclaim since CO2 comes into the retail space than ever before. And I don't know if you guys noticed this as well, Trevor or Andre, but heat reclaim, heat recovery strategies are huge because over the last 30 years, we've been just shooting a lot of that out to the atmosphere, right?
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  Condenser just shooting all the heat out where now we can really use that heat. And I think this is some of the stuff we're going to dive into today.
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  Yeah, no, you're absolutely right, Trevor. And you know, one of the things that in preparing for this, this session trying to figure out, you know, how, how is this material relevant to your audience, you know, the, the refrigeration technician you talked about and the, the common theme that came around was this is addressing a mega trend,
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  Refrigerants like co2, but it's also trying to decarbonize the grid and move away from fossil fuels to your point There's been a lot of heat reclaim in Canada, maybe in colder areas But how can we look at this this study is to look at? You know, how can we really have the data to be able to continue to talk and decarbonize based on energy and reducing overall carbon footprint.
• 0:07
  Refrigerants like co2, but it's also trying to decarbonize the grid and move away from fossil fuels to your point There's been a lot of heat reclaim in Canada, maybe in colder areas But how can we look at this this study is to look at? You know, how can we really have the data to be able to continue to talk and decarbonize based on energy and reducing overall carbon footprint.
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  So that's what we're going to try to share today.
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  Yeah, I love that. And this is a big thing in, in our training programs too. Like the technicians come in, it's like, why does this matter to me, Trevor? Like we're doing trainings and, you know, it's a four or six week program. Why does like decarbonization matter?
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  Or why does, you know, all the sustainability stuff matter. But when we talk about carbon reduction, and even if some people want to dive in deeper, I talk about it. It's not only the refrigeration system efficiency, but it's also the planet. We're just, we're jamming a lot more heat into the planet.
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  You know what I mean? And by reducing or by reusing that energy somewhere else, we're not just. Running compressors and costing more money because our background is compressors. That's why I know compressors really well. Right. And then if we were just running them all the time, but not using that energy, it's just a cost to everybody, the end users the grid, the people, and this, this costs the industry money.
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  And as we call it, it's like a tax. And so in those programs, talking to technicians, the value is that it's going to help help your customer out at the end of the day. Cause we're always working out there to technicians out there to work for the customer and trying to bring them the most value. And when you can bring them more value, technicians are always going to have work with them.
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  And as we call it, it's like a tax. And so in those programs, talking to technicians, the value is that it's going to help help your customer out at the end of the day. Cause we're always working out there to technicians out there to work for the customer and trying to bring them the most value. And when you can bring them more value, technicians are always going to have work with them.
• 0:08
  You know, that's what I say. So this is why it's good and important to understand how we can help that retailer.
• 0:08
  Yeah, exactly. If Trevor, if you go to the next slide, it kind of talks about why really Henderson engineers and Copeland. got together and wanted to do this study. So we started this about two years ago, and we really wanted to understand what is the real energy and embedded carbon when you compare.
• 0:08
  You know, the common refrigeration that you were talking about that heat reclaim has been around for a while for supermarket and hypermarkets. So we'll take a look at what size of those hypermarkets they are. So that's number one. The other thing we really want to understand as both companies, because we hadn't done the study individually.
• 0:09
  You know, the common refrigeration that you were talking about that heat reclaim has been around for a while for supermarket and hypermarkets. So we'll take a look at what size of those hypermarkets they are. So that's number one. The other thing we really want to understand as both companies, because we hadn't done the study individually.
• 0:09
  So that's why we came together. We want to understand how this implementation of heat reclaim. Can further promote the transition to CO2 because there's a lot of CO2 systems going in but now if we can layer in the value of space heating, not just from reclaim but other strategies on top of heat reclaim, when you can't get enough out of that system, what does that look like and that could accelerate the use of CO2 systems in the future.
• 0:09
  So that's really why we we did that.
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  And that's very important. So for new listeners when you talk about, can you kind of explain the carbon, you know, embedded carbon, carbon comparison, because some people will say, what do you, what do you mean, Trevor, when you're talking about carbon? What does that really mean?
• 0:09
  How does that affect us? Do you want to just kind of give a quick explanation of what that, that is? When people say, oh, we want to reduce our carbon footprint and just kind of give an example of that.
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  Yeah, so this slide here talks about what most of us are involved in a day to day base, right? We have refrigerant leaks, and we know that those leaks are carbon emissions.
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  Yeah, so this slide here talks about what most of us are involved in a day to day base, right? We have refrigerant leaks, and we know that those leaks are carbon emissions.
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  That's why we have to move to lower GWP refrigerants. But not just that! The on site combustion to heat the hot water, to heat the space, to cook food within the food retail space, that's all considered emissions and scope one emissions. The next ones are scope two that really is around the power. So if you don't have solar, if you don't have wind, you don't have sustainable power, there is an emissions factor that gets played into that equation.
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  To provide electrical energy. So we have to count that. And then the third thing in this study was supply chain leaks of moving that fuel to a space. Now there's a lot more things involved in scope three, but for the purpose of this study, we use supply chain leaks. Anything else to add Trevor?
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  Andre: No, that covers it.
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  Andre: No, that covers it. Some of this data is taken from the US EPA. And general leakage rates, but also looking at how dirty grids are in various locations because that does vary.
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  Trevor: And what do you mean by that? Dirty dirty grids?
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  Andre: Are are like wind and renewables a large percentage of grid power, or do they have a lot of coal and gas fired plants?
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  That would be basically how dirty the grid is.
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  Trevor: Yeah, so using coal, coal fire versus using a clean, a cleaner energy like wind or. Title or solar. Okay, I get you.
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  Yeah. So that those are the emissions that we looked at now when we when we compare the next slide kind of talks a little bit about what we compared from refrigeration.
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  Now we looked at a supermarket 57, 000 square feet. And a hypermarket, which is like three and a half times larger. So the heating requirements are quite different. And even the refrigeration requirements, you'll take a look at there. They're also different. And we wanted to take a look at climates from a cold Minneapolis all the way to a hot Miami and everything in between.
• 0:12
  Now we looked at a supermarket 57, 000 square feet. And a hypermarket, which is like three and a half times larger. So the heating requirements are quite different. And even the refrigeration requirements, you'll take a look at there. They're also different. And we wanted to take a look at climates from a cold Minneapolis all the way to a hot Miami and everything in between.
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  So, so we didn't look at every city in the U S but those are representative. And then the architecture we looked at, I think everyone's familiar with four 48. These are scroll packs with enhanced vapor injection, so we took an efficient HFC pack and compared it to CO2 booster with adiabatic. And one of the reasons we just took adiabatic, we said, look, many retailers are using adiabatic.
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  So let's not complicate things and do dry and adiabatic. We'll just use adiabatic across the board. And then Trevor will talk a little bit more after on the specifics of the three types of space heating that were used. So we use no reclaim with standalone gas fired rooftop units. Very common, right? Or water source heat pump with an electric boiler.
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  So let's not complicate things and do dry and adiabatic. We'll just use adiabatic across the board. And then Trevor will talk a little bit more after on the specifics of the three types of space heating that were used. So we use no reclaim with standalone gas fired rooftop units. Very common, right? Or water source heat pump with an electric boiler.
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  And then we looked at water reclaim. He's going to explain with water source, heat pump, electric boiler. And then the last one tied to CO2 system, which is really interesting is direct air reclaim. So that is reclaiming the heat off the refrigeration system, whatever free heats available and whatever you, you don't have enough, you need to supplement it with something else, resistance heat and or air source heat pump.
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  So those are the technologies we looked at.
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  Yeah, great. And these, these are new technologies, like everything that I'm looking here, you know, a water reclaim and basically use, I've seen this on racks before where we're taking you and you get the big thermal store tanks. And this was 15, 20 years ago and your heat, pre heat water.
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  You know, this is with HFC systems, but we know now you can get a lot more heat out of CO2 versus 404 for an example per pound per BTU. You know what I mean? So this is the advantage of CO2 and then direct air reclaim. I've seen that 20 years ago as well. So like this is not new, but we know that CO2, there's more taxes to CO2, especially in hotter climates.
• 0:14
  You know, this is with HFC systems, but we know now you can get a lot more heat out of CO2 versus 404 for an example per pound per BTU. You know what I mean? So this is the advantage of CO2 and then direct air reclaim. I've seen that 20 years ago as well. So like this is not new, but we know that CO2, there's more taxes to CO2, especially in hotter climates.
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  But the advantages is that we get a lot more heat out of that. We can get more hot water or hot air out of it. Talked about this many times to Andre is that as the years continue on, we got more competition. We've got more manufacturers building components and which is good, which is bringing the prices down.
• 0:14
  And you've seen this, you've been in the industry long enough. You've seen these transitions, Andre, even back in the five Oh two and our 12 days, we do that one switch there. It costs more upfront, but as. The technology evolves, the prices didn't come, come down. And this is what's happening. I see with CO2 right now.
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  And I know a lot of people around the world are seeing the same thing.
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  And we want to understand, Trevor, the combination of these technologies, which one is the, the best from an energy, but also the best from a, from a embedded carbon perspective, lowering your carbon emissions. So that's why we wanted to look at this.
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  And then kind of the next slide talks a little bit more about the specifics of the systems. Now, no, they actually. Sorry about that. The energy assumptions with all modeling. This is a modeling study. We, we kind of drew the line at a 55 degree ambient, anything below 55 degree ambit, we assumed required space heating.
• 0:15
  And then kind of the next slide talks a little bit more about the specifics of the systems. Now, no, they actually. Sorry about that. The energy assumptions with all modeling. This is a modeling study. We, we kind of drew the line at a 55 degree ambient, anything below 55 degree ambit, we assumed required space heating.
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  And when you look at those six regions or cities, you can see Minneapolis down on the bottom left there, the dark solid blue line. There's a lot of time that it's spent in Below 55 degrees, Chicago as well, even some Portland. But as you move into LA, Miami not a lot of heating requirements, right? Well, that's one thing to understand.
• 0:15
  The chart on the right you may have seen this if you use product selection software from Copeland. It's, it's a design load for refrigeration and we, we all, we all know that as it gets colder outside, our design load starts to drop. So you can see at around 40 degree ambient, our design load has dropped significantly.
• 0:16
  The chart on the right you may have seen this if you use product selection software from Copeland. It's, it's a design load for refrigeration and we, we all, we all know that as it gets colder outside, our design load starts to drop. So you can see at around 40 degree ambient, our design load has dropped significantly.
• 0:16
  So we factored that into our calculations. So our loads are dropping. Dropping that means the total heat of rejection available is proportionately dropped. So we can't heat as much, but that's okay. We factored that in so we could understand how much free heat we have available. That was part of it. So the next one really, now we're looking at architectures that a lot of us on the audience kind of get.
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  The system on the left for a supermarket and a hypermarket, a medium temp with EVI, enhanced vapor injection, so you're providing some sub cooling of the liquid, medium temp and low temp. You can see at the bottom are assumptions for 448 medium temp, TD on the condenser 15 degrees. On the hot summer day, we've got well, winter, we've got a minimum 70 degree condensing.
• 0:17
  The system on the left for a supermarket and a hypermarket, a medium temp with EVI, enhanced vapor injection, so you're providing some sub cooling of the liquid, medium temp and low temp. You can see at the bottom are assumptions for 448 medium temp, TD on the condenser 15 degrees. On the hot summer day, we've got well, winter, we've got a minimum 70 degree condensing.
• 0:17
  In the winter, we'd see about 60 degree liquid. In the hot summer, we get about 75 degree liquid. So, so that's for medium temp and low temp, you can see the numbers there. 10 degree TD, 65 minimum, so on. And my booster, we've got our minimum condensing set at 60 Fahrenheit with five degrees sub cooling, a 36 degree flash tape.
• 0:17
  Well, that's kind of the basic setup and the capacities will build now. Next slide, please.
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  So what we see is supermarket, because these are 448 packs, they're smaller. So we got four racks for supermarket and only one CO2 centralized plant, if you will, for for the CO2. You can see 258, 000 BTU immediate, low temp. For the supermarket in 474, 000 BTU medium temp, when you get though there, the hypermarket, you'll notice something interesting.
• 0:18
  So what we see is supermarket, because these are 448 packs, they're smaller. So we got four racks for supermarket and only one CO2 centralized plant, if you will, for for the CO2. You can see 258, 000 BTU immediate, low temp. For the supermarket in 474, 000 BTU medium temp, when you get though there, the hypermarket, you'll notice something interesting.
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  The low temp loads are almost the same. They're slightly greater than a supermarket, but your medium temp loads are significantly larger. And now that creates a dynamic that you're going to see later on that supermarket. When we look at total percentage of low temp load to total system load is 35 percent and hypermarket is only 29.
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  If we look at the CO2 system, for example, when I've got 35 percent of my total low temp load discharging into the medium temp suction, that has an impact on efficiency because now your whole medium temp Compressors have to manage 35 percent of the total system load coming from the low temp. I bring this up because when you look at energy numbers later, it'll have an impact.
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  Next slide. That makes sense because now, as we know, and like I talk about, and you'll learn in taking CO2 trainings, is that that discharge of that low temp goes right into the medium temp of the suction. So you gotta really understand that. When you're doing hot gas defrost, which we're not going to get into and stuff like that, but that, that there's penalties there that go back into that.
• 0:19
  Next slide. That makes sense because now, as we know, and like I talk about, and you'll learn in taking CO2 trainings, is that that discharge of that low temp goes right into the medium temp of the suction. So you gotta really understand that. When you're doing hot gas defrost, which we're not going to get into and stuff like that, but that, that there's penalties there that go back into that.
• 0:19
  You need to make sure that, that you consider, and this is all done as a technician. You don't really need to understand a lot of this. This is the designers like what Trevor does and the manufacturers of the equipment that work for the retailers. But it's something that you want to understand because the more load that you got to come there is going to affect.
• 0:19
  What happens on the medium temp side and then that go all the goes back to an amount of energy that that unit uses.
• 0:19
  No, you're right. So, conceptually, you may have a service tech that has access to energy numbers in one store. And it might look like the same footprint as another store down the street, but the energy might be higher because that store has more low temp load to total.
• 0:19
  Exactly.
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  So, so, so understanding that you may go, ah, now I get it. Now it makes sense why it's a little bit higher. So that's something that we, we saw come out of the numbers when we were doing this study. Of course, we all know that CO2 is very efficient in low ambient but in high ambient, that's why we added a gas cooler to try to keep it, the pressures as low as possible.
• 0:20
  So, so, so understanding that you may go, ah, now I get it. Now it makes sense why it's a little bit higher. So that's something that we, we saw come out of the numbers when we were doing this study. Of course, we all know that CO2 is very efficient in low ambient but in high ambient, that's why we added a gas cooler to try to keep it, the pressures as low as possible.
• 0:20
  So the next slide, please. The adiabatic, what's interesting here is we, we understand adiabatics are used to keep it in the subcritical as long as possible. And if you can build again, please, Trevor. Applying adiabatic in this particular study, we, we turned the water on at. Anything over 72 degree ambient, the water would start to trickle onto these pads.
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  And what's interesting when you look at Los Angeles from the city, all the way down to Miami, the percent runtime and super critical using weather data from NREL, National Renewable Energy Labs, a TMY3, this is the data, temperature data we used, it showed that. The water only came on 5 percent of the year.
• 0:21
  And what's interesting when you look at Los Angeles from the city, all the way down to Miami, the percent runtime and super critical using weather data from NREL, National Renewable Energy Labs, a TMY3, this is the data, temperature data we used, it showed that. The water only came on 5 percent of the year.
• 0:21
  So 5 percent out of 8, 760 hours a year. And it used 45, 000 gallons for a supermarket and 113 gallons for a hypermarket. And you can go all the way down the line here because water is a resource that we have to track and we have to understand it. And that's part of our calculation. What was also interesting is the stat at the bottom from the EPA, which I, I thought was kind of cool.
• 0:21
  That an average American household consumes about 30, 000 gallons of water per person. So a family of four is 120, 000 gallons a year. Which is about what a hypermarket in Los Angeles uses. Food on quote kind of gives you you know, something to compare against, which I thought was
• 0:21
  kind of cool.
• 0:21
  Yeah. And I haven't heard that, but that that's interesting when we think about what we do on a daily basis, especially here in North America, where are in Canada, where we got lots of water, you know, but this is different to places in the world where they don't have a lot of water.
• 0:22
  Yeah. And I haven't heard that, but that that's interesting when we think about what we do on a daily basis, especially here in North America, where are in Canada, where we got lots of water, you know, but this is different to places in the world where they don't have a lot of water.
• 0:22
  And even in North America, there's lots of places that don't have a lot of water and there's restrictions. So, and, and we talked about this before, Andre, that. Adiabatic is not always the solution, it might be a good solution, but it might cost you more because of that water situation. No, you're right.
• 0:22
  And some, some applications, some regions of the world think about using gray water, filtering gray water, and just using that for maybe not 72 degree ambient, maybe it's above 85 degrees just to trim peaks.
• 0:22
  So different strategies in different parts of the world trying to leverage some efficiency where possible.
• 0:22
  Awesome.
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  So the next slide shows, I believe, it's energy. This is interesting. So supermarket. Energy only without heat reclaim, in this case. Trevor will be talking about layering heat reclaim. But this was interesting because you take Minneapolis at the very bottom left.
• 0:23
  So the next slide shows, I believe, it's energy. This is interesting. So supermarket. Energy only without heat reclaim, in this case. Trevor will be talking about layering heat reclaim. But this was interesting because you take Minneapolis at the very bottom left. The dark black line is 448 with EBI, the blue is CO2, and you can see that CO2, a little bit of an energy advantage with adiabatic gas cooler in every region except Los Angeles, CO2 is a little bit higher. In Miami, a little bit higher remembering that the percentage of low temp loads was 29 percent of the total load for supermarkets.
• 0:23
  Now, if we layer in the next one, hypermarket, very interesting because we had less low temp load and look at the impact, how more energy efficient CO2 is. Across the board, even in Miami. So just
• 0:23
  a second. So if you're listening to this, you're not watching, looking at the these charts that Andre and Trevor are showing is actually the annual energy uses of these systems.
• 0:23
  And this is, this is, I don't know. It's not surprising to me, but it's showing that. In a lot of applications using the HFC refrigerant with EVI, which makes systems more efficient, are still using more energy as a baseline. And the funny thing is, I was talking with a friend of mine, Ian Toon, out in Australia, and he was telling me, you know, all the baselines, the data theory is showing that CO2 is way more expensive, theoretically, in all the design work.
• 0:24
  And this is, this is, I don't know. It's not surprising to me, but it's showing that. In a lot of applications using the HFC refrigerant with EVI, which makes systems more efficient, are still using more energy as a baseline. And the funny thing is, I was talking with a friend of mine, Ian Toon, out in Australia, and he was telling me, you know, all the baselines, the data theory is showing that CO2 is way more expensive, theoretically, in all the design work.
• 0:24
  But what he's been seeing after seven or eight years of the systems running, they're running way more efficient. Then what the calculators have been saying, you know, it's the CO2 systems are running way more Because they baselined it and they did all these studies But when they actually looked at the MMV the measurement verification CO2 has been a lot more energy efficient than people have been saying I don't know if you know this
• 0:24
  is a good thing.
• 0:24
  No, you're right, Trevor. If we take the time to set them up properly, commission them properly and have the right, depending on where you are in the world, of course, you have to have the right mitigation strategies to take advantage of it. And this particular set of data was only one mitigation strategy.
• 0:25
  No, you're right, Trevor. If we take the time to set them up properly, commission them properly and have the right, depending on where you are in the world, of course, you have to have the right mitigation strategies to take advantage of it. And this particular set of data was only one mitigation strategy.
• 0:25
  It was only adiabatic gas cooler. There's nothing else from a high ambient perspective and there's nothing else from a low side energy saving strategy. So that was interesting to us and, and, and. You know, if Trevor builds the next slide, the reason being here that the hypermarkets took advantage of the fact that there was lower low temp loads to total.
• 0:25
  So that was, that was interesting to see the big difference when we went through the data.
• 0:25
  It's interesting to me to see because I get these questions all the time in our training and our design programs, you know, people ask, like, Trevor, we're going to start designing CO2 systems. Does CO2 actually cost more to run?
• 0:25
  And you're showing data here that it's using less energy and a comparable comparable system. But like you said earlier, it all depends. What is those high ambient strategies? What is the location around the world? How is it set up and fine tuned by that contractor? How do the end users want the maintenance?
• 0:25
  So there's a lot that goes involved, but do you know what doesn't change? It's no different than what it should have been done 20 years ago. You know what I mean? Oh, you're right. I've seen so many case studies when we worked together, Andre, where we shown a 20 year old supermarket where you just, they, the con contractor went in, you work with the contractor, Andre, and they went in and just fine tuned the store and they got like 15, 16 percent efficiency gain or 18 percent on some of the old store that's just by doing maintenance on it.
• 0:26
  So there's a lot that goes involved, but do you know what doesn't change? It's no different than what it should have been done 20 years ago. You know what I mean? Oh, you're right. I've seen so many case studies when we worked together, Andre, where we shown a 20 year old supermarket where you just, they, the con contractor went in, you work with the contractor, Andre, and they went in and just fine tuned the store and they got like 15, 16 percent efficiency gain or 18 percent on some of the old store that's just by doing maintenance on it.
• 0:26
  And it's a similar thing now we're more conscious about our energy and the retailers are because power is going up. So now consistent fine tuning and monitoring is going to be key. And what's great about CO2, we got so many temperatures and pressure probes that we can do it more accurately now than ever before.
• 0:26
  You're right. The problem in the past
• 0:26
  has been holding the gains. Once you do it, the challenge is how do we hold those gains and don't allow it to keep drifting back to where it was pre recommissioning. And, and you're right, with all the electronics, it gives us visibility and can send alarms and notifications when things get out of whack.
• 0:27
  has been holding the gains. Once you do it, the challenge is how do we hold those gains and don't allow it to keep drifting back to where it was pre recommissioning. And, and you're right, with all the electronics, it gives us visibility and can send alarms and notifications when things get out of whack.
• 0:27
  So, so we, we are at a place with electronics. It's a better place to be able to pull those gains once we've achieved them.
• 0:27
  And just remember retailers who are listening out there, it costs money to save money. And what does that mean? That it costs, you got to pay the contractors and the people to go and make sure it's fine tuned properly and not let your store just run off.
• 0:27
  Oh, well, we'll just do it. You know, we'll be reactive instead of proactive. You got to have people take a look at it. This costs money, but if you do it right, it's going to save you money over the longterm.
• 0:27
  I think Tremor, you're up, if I'm not mistaken.
• 0:27
  Andre: Yep, this is my side. Space heating systems. So, we Andre mentioned that we looked at systems without heat reclaim. So, refrigeration system, and roughly a rooftop unit, gas fired rooftop unit where we're looking at. 67 degree return air temperature, a minimum supplier temperature of 85 degrees and that was kind of the set point looking at gas fired standard efficiencies, 80 percent AFU E so that's what we're going by.
• 0:28
  Andre: Yep, this is my side. Space heating systems. So, we Andre mentioned that we looked at systems without heat reclaim. So, refrigeration system, and roughly a rooftop unit, gas fired rooftop unit where we're looking at. 67 degree return air temperature, a minimum supplier temperature of 85 degrees and that was kind of the set point looking at gas fired standard efficiencies, 80 percent AFU E so that's what we're going by.
• 0:28
  And we also looked at. Without reclaim, the water source heat pump system, and this is a very simplified water source heat pump schematic. Where you'll have a boiler, a fluid cooler for rejecting heat, boiler to add heat. And a water source heat pump that's just moving heat in and out of the loop as needed.
• 0:28
  Trevor: Yeah, this is pretty normal. This is not anything new. If you, if you worked on some of these before or worked on a supermarket that has them, there's lots of them out there. So it's yeah.
• 0:28
  Andre: So adding water source heat or heat reclaimed the water source heat pump reclaimed heat exchanger. We're looking at a loop temperature of roughly 60 degrees, which that keeps the condensing temperature of.
• 0:29
  Andre: So adding water source heat or heat reclaimed the water source heat pump reclaimed heat exchanger. We're looking at a loop temperature of roughly 60 degrees, which that keeps the condensing temperature of.
• 0:29
  CO2 or the refrigerant low, basically at minimum and the efficiencies of the water source heat pump at that range are roughly four. You can get a little bit better, but that was a nice round number.
• 0:29
  Trevor: And this right now is talking about the four, four, eight system, correct?
• 0:29
  Andre: We actually look, I looked at it for both the four, four, eight and our So,
• 0:29
  yeah, this is what the system was looking like and then expanding to the direct air reclaim again, we're looking here, we're now bypassing around the condenser gas cooler and a straight heat heating coil in the unit we initially looked at it with electric resistance, heat and and then we also looked at it with an air source heat pump component.
• 0:29
  Trevor: Okay, and so what was the difference that you know between those two different options?
• 0:30
  Trevor: Okay, and so what was the difference that you know between those two different options?
• 0:30
  Andre: With the air source heat pump, air source heat pumps are far more efficient in introducing heat to the building. And I'm kind of being careful with how I describe them. They're not creating heat. They're introducing heat to the building from the outdoors.
• 0:30
  So you're cooling the outdoors to heat your building. So I will note on the hypermarket. We were looking at a system that used 100 percent outside air through large air handling units. So that was, we were basically preheating the incoming outside air in the hypermarket scenario. In the supermarket scenario we were using return air and uh, Door air and then heating that up.
• 0:30
  So kind of looking at these are the loads based on ambient temperatures. So of course, it's kind of easy to see the heating loads are gonna be a lot higher when it's colder and then reduces, it gets warmer. And also our hypermarket needs a lot more heat than the supermarket.
• 0:31
  So kind of looking at these are the loads based on ambient temperatures. So of course, it's kind of easy to see the heating loads are gonna be a lot higher when it's colder and then reduces, it gets warmer. And also our hypermarket needs a lot more heat than the supermarket.
• 0:31
  Trevor: Oh yeah, bigger, bigger, bigger store, bigger area to heat and lots more water.
• 0:31
  You know what I mean? You got more bathrooms if you're doing preheating, you got more meat room, the bigger meat rooms. And so that we totally understand that it's going to need a lot more. And as always, like we had a lot of these conversations before in the middle of summer, when you don't need heat, it's really hot outside that that's when you get the most, you get the most energy that you can use.
• 0:31
  Now it's in the middle of the winter when we need the heat. We don't have as much because. We were more efficient today. We got all glass doors. We got curtains on everything. Our, our buildings are more efficient than before the newer buildings of the installation. So we know that it's a, it's a bigger struggle to get that heat out of any system.
• 0:31
  It doesn't matter if it's CO2 or 448. It's just, we just don't have, there's, there's, they're more efficient. So we're not just, Creating as much heat from that compressor.
• 0:32
  It doesn't matter if it's CO2 or 448. It's just, we just don't have, there's, there's, they're more efficient. So we're not just, Creating as much heat from that compressor.
• 0:32
  Andre: That's right. And so one of the things are looking at this the supermarket, we're kind of at a balance point at around 20 degrees where there's almost enough heat to cover the heating load from just reclaim if we're looking at our hypermarket, we're.
• 0:32
  You're almost at around 55 degrees. So a lot more supplemental heat was going into the hypermarket design.
• 0:32
  Trevor: Yeah. So really what you mean there is that the compressors that are running at 20 degrees Fahrenheit or minus six Celsius at the ambient outside, you're only generating about half that heat through the heat reclaim.
• 0:32
  So we need the other 50 percent through some sort of. Heat, auxiliary heat, correct?
• 0:32
  Andre: Correct. Now one thing is the available heat off of the system, it remains fairly flat in the coldest periods because you're running down at your, towards your minimums.
• 0:33
  Andre: Correct. Now one thing is the available heat off of the system, it remains fairly flat in the coldest periods because you're running down at your, towards your minimums.
• 0:33
  Trevor: That's right. Because that, that high pressure valve is maintaining a certain temperature and pressure in that gas cooler.
• 0:33
  So that's all you have of whatever heat that is. So whatever that high pressure valve is doing. Okay, fantastic.
• 0:33
  Andre: And now looking at some of the total energy use. So, right off you can see there's a big penalty in not using any of the reclaimed heat significantly, and that's for each location.
• 0:33
  Trevor: Well, it makes sense. We're just throwing that heat away, right? So we're building it, we're creating heat, and then we're just throwing it out the gas cooler or the condenser, depending on the applications.
• 0:33
  Andre: So those are the two systems we've looked at. Now, when we start looking at reclaim in the supermarket, the direct air reclaim Doesn't do quite as well as the water source heat pump, and a lot of that had to do with the fact that this is looking at both heating and refrigeration energy. So this is kind of a total of the refrigeration and energy layered on top of it.
• 0:34
  Andre: So those are the two systems we've looked at. Now, when we start looking at reclaim in the supermarket, the direct air reclaim Doesn't do quite as well as the water source heat pump, and a lot of that had to do with the fact that this is looking at both heating and refrigeration energy. So this is kind of a total of the refrigeration and energy layered on top of it.
• 0:34
  So if we're spending a lot of additional. Energy in auxiliary heat which we don't necessarily need to do, or we're spending a lot more in refrigeration then it's going to show up as a total.
• 0:34
  Trevor: That makes sense. Andre: So the water source heat pump, especially on the super on the supermarket where we're closer to parity with our loads, we need a lot less auxiliary heat. is what we found. So it was significantly better than everything except the air source heat pump where air source feed pump we've got, we're bringing in air for our heat from the outdoors.
• 0:34
  And when we looked at that, we got much better efficiencies and that was coupled with the direct air heat reclaim.
• 0:35
  And when we looked at that, we got much better efficiencies and that was coupled with the direct air heat reclaim.
• 0:35
  Trevor: The funny thing is, Trevor, you're showing all these graphs and consistently see on here that CO2 is using less energy than the 448 system.
• 0:35
  Andre: Yeah, the, the amount of heating energy the amount of reclaim that you can get is actually really close between the two. So, what you're seeing there is The slight difference in energy efficiency of the systems, of the refrigeration systems when we're pulling that heat out.
• 0:35
  Trevor: And that's the big thing we know, and I've talked, like I said, I talk about this in our CO2 training programs, all that.
• 0:35
  CO2 just has more heat. You can use it, you get more heat outta the CO2 than most refrigerants. And this is the why Space heating with CO2 is gonna, is gonna continue to grow. Man, I see it more and more happening, water reclaim and heat reclaim happening on so many racks out there and the startups I've been to, it's just going to be something that if you haven't been using it, using it, you're going to get used to because you're going to see more and more of these.
• 0:36
  CO2 just has more heat. You can use it, you get more heat outta the CO2 than most refrigerants. And this is the why Space heating with CO2 is gonna, is gonna continue to grow. Man, I see it more and more happening, water reclaim and heat reclaim happening on so many racks out there and the startups I've been to, it's just going to be something that if you haven't been using it, using it, you're going to get used to because you're going to see more and more of these.
• 0:36
  Andre: Yeah, what we refer to it as is the quality of the heat. It's hotter and heat is easier to make use of than more mild heat. So if it's there, it's a difference between if it's 180 degrees or is it only 120 degrees.
• 0:36
  Trevor: Yeah.
• 0:36
  Andre: It's easier to use that 180 degree heat than it is the 120 degree.
• 0:36
  Trevor: It is well, it is worth noting this study did not take into consideration hot water heat.
• 0:36
  This is only space heating. So, so we did draw the line there and to Trevor's point, you know, high quality heat's great for heating hot water. But we didn't take that into consideration for this study.
• 0:36
  Yeah, no, that's fine. But it's just for people to understand that you're getting good. Good heat from CO2.
• 0:36
  Right. Andre: 100%. We also didn't include heat storage either like ground source or anything like that.
• 0:37
  Andre: 100%. We also didn't include heat storage either like ground source or anything like that.
• 0:37
  Trevor: That would be a two day talk. That,
• 0:37
  that Andre: would, we wanted to get it done.
• 0:37
  Trevor: Maybe, maybe phase two. Yeah. Yeah.
• 0:37
  Andre: So the hypermarket. When we looked at that so again, we see that big penalty for no reclaim but then when we start looking at water source versus direct.
• 0:37
  It kind of evens out because we need so much additional heat anyway, that there, there isn't a huge benefit for the water source heat pump with no storage. So if you have some way of storing heat like injecting it into the ground in the summertime, yeah, this might change, but. That's a little bit of a different system makes sense.
• 0:37
  So there are still some areas where water source heat pump shows a bit benefit. But those are in more mild climates like Dallas and Portland, where you're not, you don't have that very cool days that we're trying to provide the additional heat for.
• 0:38
  So there are still some areas where water source heat pump shows a bit benefit. But those are in more mild climates like Dallas and Portland, where you're not, you don't have that very cool days that we're trying to provide the additional heat for.
• 0:38
  And then again, the air source heat pumps. It looks even better with the hypermarket design than in the supermarket, because there's so much additional auxiliary heat that we're going to need.
• 0:38
  Trevor: Yeah.
• 0:38
  Andre: So when kind of looking at direct air reclaim and air source heat pumps so. When it's really cold air direct reclaim does very well as the temperature of the outside air increases, there's a point where the amount of heat that you're really getting off of the coil starts dropping because you're not going to be able to heat the air up beyond a certain point now there with TCO2 there are ways to adjust that.
• 0:38
  But with air source heat pumps, they typically have very poor efficiencies when it's really cold. To the point where most manufacturers have a lower limit that at that point, you're just running either pure electric heat, there are some new dual fuel heat pumps that are basically your standard.
• 0:39
  But with air source heat pumps, they typically have very poor efficiencies when it's really cold. To the point where most manufacturers have a lower limit that at that point, you're just running either pure electric heat, there are some new dual fuel heat pumps that are basically your standard.
• 0:39
  Heat pump, but instead of electric heat, they use gas.
• 0:39
  So one thing we looked at was pushing the temp, the pressures on our CO2 systems above minimum to see if we could get a little more heat. So that actually came back with a slightly interesting answer. And it kind of depends. One of the things is you have to be able to use all of the additional heat that the system is producing.
• 0:39
  If you don't, then you're not fully condensing. And if you don't get your, by fully condensing, you keep your mass flow for the system fairly low. Because a compressor is not a great way to generate heat. It's good for moving heat. But it's really not as efficient as say an electric resistance heater for generating heat from electric power, if that makes sense.
• 0:40
  If you don't, then you're not fully condensing. And if you don't get your, by fully condensing, you keep your mass flow for the system fairly low. Because a compressor is not a great way to generate heat. It's good for moving heat. But it's really not as efficient as say an electric resistance heater for generating heat from electric power, if that makes sense.
• 0:40
  Trevor: Well, it's a, they're refrigeration compressors, not usually not heating compressors, right? So you're right in moving heat and we're just trying to use that extra energy that's created because, because it has to be created so we can, we can cool stuff, we can pull heat out of stuff. So the whole purpose of it is to to use that.
• 0:40
  Heat that's generated anyway, right? To be more efficient the way we do things.
• 0:40
  Yeah, as we were working through this study, Trevor You know, we heard that all you gotta do is keep running the head pressure just above the critical point, And you're gonna get all kinds of extra heat. Well, Trevor's gonna talk about Maybe not always.
• 0:40
  You will get extra
• 0:40
  heat. Right, you will get extra heat. But what's the cost?
• 0:41
  heat. Right, you will get extra heat. But what's the cost?
• 0:41
  Andre: Yes. What is the cost? So we looked at it both for the water source heat pump and the direct reclaim whether or not it made sense to push your head pressures higher and looking at the water source heat pump there's actually a little energy penalty.
• 0:41
  So it actually costs you more. You do get more heat, but you're spending more power to get that heat. Now, when we looked at the direct air reclaim there's more use because there's just more usable heat, we're more dependent on the temperature difference with direct reclaim, then you actually can still save a little bit more energy.
• 0:41
  But interestingly enough, going into the transcritical and some of this actually had to do with the system architecture we were looking at. What we saw was going up a little bit was better than going all the way up to transcritical. Now, that was just for the systems we were looking at on other systems.
• 0:42
  But interestingly enough, going into the transcritical and some of this actually had to do with the system architecture we were looking at. What we saw was going up a little bit was better than going all the way up to transcritical. Now, that was just for the systems we were looking at on other systems.
• 0:42
  Yeah, you'd want to go to transcritical. That'll be your best energy point, but it might not always be. So that's going to need to be looked at into where do we want to run things?
• 0:42
  Trevor: Well, it's like anything is how many. How much energy are we going to use to get the BTUs we need either in cooling or heating?
• 0:42
  So it's, how can we reduce that, that amount of work on those compressors at the end of the day? Yeah, we can shut off those compressors, man. We're saving some energy, but we need those compressors to run for cooling and heating. So there's a fine balance there.
• 0:42
  Andre: And of course we threw in the air source heat pump because it's always just looks so good.
• 0:42
  So. This goes back into looking at the operational carbon. So some of our. Carbon assumptions for direct emissions we looked at the GWP 1387 for R448A, one for CO2.
• 0:42
  Trevor: And GWP, sorry, GWP for everyone there is global warming potential. Yeah. And CO2 or 744 is one, and then everything else is based off that.
• 0:43
  Trevor: And GWP, sorry, GWP for everyone there is global warming potential. Yeah. And CO2 or 744 is one, and then everything else is based off that.
• 0:43
  Ammonia is zero, I believe, and propane is three. So just so those people under everyone understands GWP. And I'm sure if they listen to podcasts, I've talked about it before, but it's always good to put it in.
• 0:43
  Andre: So going by some of the EPA data we looked at, we assumed a refrigerant leak rate of 25 percent for both systems.
• 0:43
  So.
• 0:43
  Trevor: Equivalent astronomically high for today. Like we should, we should be shooting for 0%. We know that doesn't happen. 25 is still way too high. So if you have a system out there that's leaking this much, you got to go fix those leaks. If you're out there, you got to stop it because it shouldn't be that high.
• 0:43
  It's not a Schrader cap. It's something else leaking. Just spend the time and talk to your customer about this. Is it, you're going to stop these right? 25 percent is way too high for me. So I know you're assuming 25%, but that's still way too high for our industry.
• 0:44
  It's not a Schrader cap. It's something else leaking. Just spend the time and talk to your customer about this. Is it, you're going to stop these right? 25 percent is way too high for me. So I know you're assuming 25%, but that's still way too high for our industry.
• 0:44
  Andre: And some leakage is, may actually be due to improper documentation of service.
• 0:44
  If you pull off 10 pounds and don't log it. So you're reclaiming 10 pounds to do a service and you put it back in. Or you have to, and then you recharge and you log that you put 10 pounds in, but you don't, you didn't that you pulled some out first, that would look like a leak in the documentation.
• 0:44
  Trevor: And you should be logging this. I was doing it 20 years ago, logging my refrigerant when I was adding. So anybody listening out there. You got to be tracking this stuff. This, this is important for your customer. Especially when you're doing grocery store or supermarket, we're talking about hundreds to thousands of pounds of refrigerant.
• 0:44
  You got to be logging that stuff. It's just part of our job as being a refrigeration professional.
• 0:44
  Andre: And. With coming regulations, at least in the U. S., logging what is pulled out is going to be important as well.
• 0:44
  So there's some color coding in how we showed stuff. So we're showing emissions as a hatch light green and direct emissions for combustion is yellow. So. Yellow is basically natural gas emissions or emission contributions in following charts. Electrical indirect is blue for refrigeration and it's electrical indirect is orange for the heating systems.
• 0:45
  So there's some color coding in how we showed stuff. So we're showing emissions as a hatch light green and direct emissions for combustion is yellow. So. Yellow is basically natural gas emissions or emission contributions in following charts. Electrical indirect is blue for refrigeration and it's electrical indirect is orange for the heating systems.
• 0:45
  And that goes to the total carbon footprint. And this is for the supermarket. What we were seeing, so our baseline
• 0:45
  with heat, with good heat reclaim carbon emissions of roughly one quarter and water source heat pump and direct air source, they're really, the carbon emissions are very close. So some of that if you're looking from a carbon perspective. Now you might be looking at, okay, which sim, which system is going to be simpler, overall, easier maintenance, lower cost, because looking at the carbon, they're effectively equivalent.
• 0:46
  with heat, with good heat reclaim carbon emissions of roughly one quarter and water source heat pump and direct air source, they're really, the carbon emissions are very close. So some of that if you're looking from a carbon perspective. Now you might be looking at, okay, which sim, which system is going to be simpler, overall, easier maintenance, lower cost, because looking at the carbon, they're effectively equivalent.
• 0:46
  And some of the locations, one of the things we looked at was direct air reclaim only or de superheating only where we're only capturing a very small portion because LA and Miami, you really don't need a lot of heat.
• 0:46
  Trevor: So from all this, all this Trevor, what are, what do you, you show me all these graphs and number, what, what's your recommendation from, from the study for the suit? Cause this is the supermarket one, we'll get into the hypermarket, but what, what do you think from this study? Cause this theoretical, this is not M& V and monitor and all this stuff and maintenance and install and service and all that stuff that goes into play.
• 0:46
  What is from, from your study here, what's your recommendation?
• 0:46
  Andre: If I'm going to recommend to a client which kind of system they should be putting in, I'm pretty much going to be going with direct reclaim and CO2 because with air source heat pumps for the remainder that way you can, you're getting the best efficiency in your heating mode with the air source heat pumps.
• 0:47
  Andre: If I'm going to recommend to a client which kind of system they should be putting in, I'm pretty much going to be going with direct reclaim and CO2 because with air source heat pumps for the remainder that way you can, you're getting the best efficiency in your heating mode with the air source heat pumps.
• 0:47
  For the majority of the United States there's a lot of hours where the heat pumps will do much of the work and you won't need a lot of supplemental it, it's not something that's been used a lot for throughout the U S there are some places like California where it's pretty common at this point though.
• 0:47
  Trevor: Yeah. Let's check out the hypermarket would be the next one, right?
• 0:47
  Andre: Yeah, and again, we see here it's a little bit different because the water source heat pump needs so much additional heating energy inputted that the air source heat pump, especially in the colder climes, really shines. And the milder climbs, they're a lot closer when you look at Dallas and Portland, the water source heat pump seems to make up ground, but the air source It is so much better.
• 0:48
  Andre: Yeah, and again, we see here it's a little bit different because the water source heat pump needs so much additional heating energy inputted that the air source heat pump, especially in the colder climes, really shines. And the milder climbs, they're a lot closer when you look at Dallas and Portland, the water source heat pump seems to make up ground, but the air source It is so much better.
• 0:48
  Trevor: Oh, that's fantastic. So, and so, so for that one there, would it be, you would have the same recommendation? And once again, this all comes down to location, climate elevation. There's a lot, there's a lot of factors that go involved in it. It's not just like you just pick one and it's the same one for everywhere, right?
• 0:48
  Cause there's going to be different components. There's going to be different strategies. You're going to have different quality of skills in that, in that area. So these are all things you got to think about. So it's not one size fits all. For sure, especially this day and age for energy
• 0:48
  Andre: and these assumed that it was basically a standalone building.
• 0:48
  If you were looking at a supermarket going into the lower levels of a multi story building, that's going to be different.
• 0:48
  Trevor: Yeah, for sure. Andre: Now we're looking at, we've got a. A lot more heat than we're probably going to need. So is that something you could functionally sell back to the building owner for other tenants?
• 0:49
  Andre: Now we're looking at, we've got a. A lot more heat than we're probably going to need. So is that something you could functionally sell back to the building owner for other tenants?
• 0:49
  Trevor: Oh yeah. There's, there's so many factors to the people. So you have a store that you have 20 times more people coming through every day versus a store that has just. A small amount of people coming through each day there's, there's so many factors that that's involved. So once, once again, this is at the end of the day, if you really want the numbers, it's MNV of the measurement and verification of every ounce of energy on all the different components, which is not easy.
• 0:49
  Nobody, because it costs a lot of money to do that.
• 0:49
  No, you're right. And, you know, one of the things as, as we talked through all the different scenarios and, and building types and heat loads, the end of the day, you got to consult with a. An expert in those in that field, right guys like Henderson that do this, they make sure that they optimize the right balance point and the right technology for the right building and climate.
• 0:49
  Those are things. So it's not not one
• 0:49
  paintbrush. Oh, does it all. So for sure, that's what I tell our students in our CO2 design course, when they're designing is. So when you go to a customer, you can't just give them one solution because maybe they can't afford that a solution, or maybe they don't have the skill level for that.
• 0:50
  paintbrush. Oh, does it all. So for sure, that's what I tell our students in our CO2 design course, when they're designing is. So when you go to a customer, you can't just give them one solution because maybe they can't afford that a solution, or maybe they don't have the skill level for that.
• 0:50
  So you got to come up with two to three solutions. That's going to best work for them. Because at the end of the day, because we see more and more adiabatic, I see tons of adiabatic gas coolers going out there. But the problem is the total cost of ownership for it is more. Because in your location, you got very bad water, you need more filters, you're by an airport and it's really dirty, so they got to be changed way more than a place that isn't dirty.
• 0:50
  So when you look at the total cost of ownership and that maintenance You, it's not worth it. So this is why you got to go in with multiple options. I keep telling the students, just don't give one option. Look at the numbers, break it down, and then do it a second time. Look at the numbers again. Cause that's probably what Trevor does.
• 0:50
  You know what I mean? You do all the numbers and then let's make sure these numbers are accurate and let's test it against something else.
• 0:50
  Andre: Yeah. Are we looking at some other higher low side efficiency that allows you to get away from the adiabatic gasculars? Because yeah, so they are a maintenance issue and it's ongoing.
• 0:51
  Andre: Yeah. Are we looking at some other higher low side efficiency that allows you to get away from the adiabatic gasculars? Because yeah, so they are a maintenance issue and it's ongoing.
• 0:51
  You've got to protect those spots from freezing it's water on the roof. And how well does the client deal with water cooling systems. And if they're good, if they have a good technician base and service personnel, they may be, yeah, we're, this is easy. Otherwise, that might be a real lift for them.
• 0:51
  So staying clear of that can be a good thing.
• 0:51
  Trevor: And this is another thing I tell technicians that are in my service and maintenance program is like, okay, you got an adiabatic gas cooler in the middle of the winter, you don't need the water. So the water is going to be isolated. What do you do with that pad?
• 0:51
  You're going to take them out. You know what I mean? You don't just leave them in there and elements going to beat them up. They're going to last longer, but then it comes down to storage, where you're going to locate them and put them in because now in six, eight months, a year here in Canada, where it's winter all the time, you don't need the pads even in there, you know what I mean?
• 0:52
  You're going to take them out. You know what I mean? You don't just leave them in there and elements going to beat them up. They're going to last longer, but then it comes down to storage, where you're going to locate them and put them in because now in six, eight months, a year here in Canada, where it's winter all the time, you don't need the pads even in there, you know what I mean?
• 0:52
  So these are things that you, the, the end user, as well as the contractor need to understand, can you take them out and things like that? It's a lot, and it can last longer
• 0:52
  Andre: time that you'll you would operate transcritically is something that really needs to be checked because that may be a, well, we're probably only going to do it a few times, you know, for a couple hours a day.
• 0:52
  Is it worth it to just spend the extra power at that point? And have a simpler heat rejection strategy.
• 0:52
  Trevor: Yeah, exactly. And this is why I tell all the designers that you got to look at, at it. Is what's the value of that total? And Andre, we talked about this tons of time, total cost of ownership. This is, this is the problem with some end users though.
• 0:52
  It's like, well, it's. The CapEx costs, I don't need to worry about, you know, this is our capital costs, the upfront costs versus operation for the next 20 years. And then they don't, Hey, that's a different budget. Let's not worry about that right now. And I'm sure Trevor, you deal with this all the time. It's like you get together a little bit more over the grand scheme of things.
• 0:53
  It's like, well, it's. The CapEx costs, I don't need to worry about, you know, this is our capital costs, the upfront costs versus operation for the next 20 years. And then they don't, Hey, that's a different budget. Let's not worry about that right now. And I'm sure Trevor, you deal with this all the time. It's like you get together a little bit more over the grand scheme of things.
• 0:53
  You're going to save more money when you work together than being in silos of them. And it's just another whole podcast we could talk about. I'm sure. Awesome. Any final thoughts for the study, Andre, I'll go with you Trevor, sorry, Trevor, I'll go with you for any final thoughts on this study. The biggest things that you took away from spending two years on this project.
• 0:53
  Andre: So looking at how much heat you can get out and picking the best point, you So some of it is deciding which heat recovery path you're going to go after. You're going to go for just preheating all your outside air, or are you going to do, try and use it for space heating direct there are reasons to go either way, but then how to do that most efficiently.
• 0:53
  And if some of that TCO2 R4488, that doesn't matter. It's like, okay, how's the best way to get the heat from the rack. Into your store or back into your store.
• 0:54
  And if some of that TCO2 R4488, that doesn't matter. It's like, okay, how's the best way to get the heat from the rack. Into your store or back into your store.
• 0:54
  Trevor: Yeah. And I like that. And one of the things I took away is that, that 25 percent assumption leak rate, we got to get that down. We want people to assume it's only 10%, 20, 25 percent is too high.
• 0:54
  Andre, any, what's your final thoughts on the study? Cause I know you've been involved in tons and tons of study. You spend a lot of time on this. What are some of your final thoughts?
• 0:54
  Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of, there's a lot of people involved in this study with, with both companies, of course, it wasn't just Trevor and I, obviously but to me, what, what, what bubbled out the most was that you just can't assume that you can do the same thing for every store in every location and every store type.
• 0:54
  When we started working through the numbers and just the percentage of low temp loads to total, it was like, whoa. Yeah, we knew that that makes sense, but now we're looking at the numbers, it makes a whole lot of sense. And of course we looked at adiabatic versus HFC non adiabatic, so you do have to factor that in.
• 0:55
  When we started working through the numbers and just the percentage of low temp loads to total, it was like, whoa. Yeah, we knew that that makes sense, but now we're looking at the numbers, it makes a whole lot of sense. And of course we looked at adiabatic versus HFC non adiabatic, so you do have to factor that in.
• 0:55
  You have to look at everything when you're doing a comparison. And in order to have the right information, you've got to reach out to the right people that can provide you with information and confidence. So that when you do apply a system in a specific region with a specific technology, you can feel confident that you'll get what you expect.
• 0:55
  That you're not just being led down a garden path because they did it. Five states over, or five provinces over, and it's going to work here. No, you have to look at it individually for that site,
• 0:55
  and everything else involved. That's funny that you say that, because I've had quite a few people that took our CO2 design cars and say, Trevor, I'm talking with the manufacturer, they're telling us one thing of the, the CO2 unit.
• 0:55
  I talked with the engineering firm. They're telling me a totally different thing, thing of the unit. So I'm taking your program so I can understand both points because I don't know if they're right or wrong and I need to understand for myself. And that's where education, training and development comes into play.
• 0:56
  I talked with the engineering firm. They're telling me a totally different thing, thing of the unit. So I'm taking your program so I can understand both points because I don't know if they're right or wrong and I need to understand for myself. And that's where education, training and development comes into play.
• 0:56
  Well, Trevor, you're bringing up a great point because that's why we've done four studies ourselves, Copeland. Because we don't want to rely on someone else to tell us, so that's why we did the climate study. This study on super, on, on CO2 heat reclaim, the ultra low superheat, the total cost of ownership.
• 0:56
  If you don't do it yourself, then you can't understand it firsthand. And you can't Provide the right information to your customer. So that's why we invest and spend time and partner with industry professionals like that.
• 0:56
  Yeah, no, no, I love it. How can people find out more about this study? Find out more about you guys if they want to learn more about this.
• 0:56
  Trevor put up the QR code on your screen here. If you take your camera and you, you take a photo of that, it will bring you right to this white paper explaining everything that Trevor and I just talked about.
• 0:57
  Trevor put up the QR code on your screen here. If you take your camera and you, you take a photo of that, it will bring you right to this white paper explaining everything that Trevor and I just talked about.
• 0:57
  And if they're listening on the podcast, I'll put the link in the podcast in the description so they can grab the link from there.
• 0:57
  And from Copeland's perspective, anyone interested in more information, you can go to copeland. com. E360 resource hub. There was a ton of stuff there on CO2, ammonia, R290, A2Ls from a cobalt perspective. And Trevor, I'll let you talk about your side.
• 0:57
  Yeah. How can people find out more about you, Trevor and Henderson engineers?
• 0:57
  Andre: So Henderson engineers does have a website.
• 0:57
  Trevor: If they search it and it's Haitian engineers, they'll find it
• 0:57
  Andre: in Google. Yeah, we're, we're an engineering firm. We we work with our clients and we typically are going after our clients, our owners typically. So a lot of our marketing and one of the reasons the framing of this white paper and presentation.
• 0:57
  A lot of it's going after that owner market or segment.
• 0:58
  A lot of it's going after that owner market or segment.
• 0:58
  Trevor: Perfect. So, if you're listening to this and you want to learn more, get, get, check out that white paper, review it, but once again, at the end of the day, it's a diving in deeper to have a better understanding of how this all works because refrigeration is ever evolving.
• 0:58
  The thermodynamics do not change. From a hundred years ago, refrigeration to today and 2025 thermodynamics doesn't, doesn't change. We're moving heat and there's different ways to do it today, though. We're trying to do it more efficiently and effectively. And this all comes back to the design, to the installation, to the service, to the troubleshooting.
• 0:58
  So you need to invest in yourself. to learn all that. And I'm a better technician today because of all the design and engineering work I've been doing in the background to really understand the system, all the different controls, all the different mechanical components. They're new, but we're doing the same thing.
• 0:58
  We're just moving energy. I want to thank you guys for taking the time to share. This white study with us as this white paper and and really learn a few things here, which I, I like seeing that there's different things being done out there all around the world. You know what I mean? And this is, this here, it doesn't matter where you're listening from, you may see stuff like this.
• 0:59
  We're just moving energy. I want to thank you guys for taking the time to share. This white study with us as this white paper and and really learn a few things here, which I, I like seeing that there's different things being done out there all around the world. You know what I mean? And this is, this here, it doesn't matter where you're listening from, you may see stuff like this.
• 0:59
  So I recommend reading that, learning more. Growing your knowledge. If you like this share this podcast, the YouTube show comment on it, see, let us know what you thought. Are you doing this type of work out there right now? Are you working on systems that have a lot of heat reclaim, heat recovery with CO2 system?
• 0:59
  Love the conversation guide. I want to thank you so much, Andre, Trevor, for taking the time to do this. And as always join us when you can, because we love sharing this knowledge. My name is Trevor Mathis. Let's get a conversation going.
• 1:00
  Love the conversation guide. I want to thank you so much, Andre, Trevor, for taking the time to do this. And as always join us when you can, because we love sharing this knowledge. My name is Trevor Mathis. Let's get a conversation going.