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Do Less with Less: Bill Harrison on Leadership Lessons for a Shrinking Church · Future Christian

0:07
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
0:13
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
0:21
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
0:24
walk boldly into the future. Whether
0:27
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
0:30
of your faith community, this podcast is
0:33
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
0:36
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
0:39
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:44
>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:47
Martha talks with the Reverend Dr. William
0:49
Harrison. Bill is
0:52
president of Lutheran Theological Seminary,
0:54
Saskatoon and Chair of the Saskatoon
0:57
Theological Union Common Faculty. Bill
1:00
teaches systematic theology and historical
1:03
theology and ethics. In addition to his
1:05
PhD in Systematic Theology and Church History from
1:08
Boston College, Bill has degrees in English, uh,
1:11
literature, theology and political science.
1:14
Bill is the author of Leadership in a Shrinking Church,
1:17
Frequently Asked Questions in Christian Theology, and
1:20
In Praise of Mixed Religions. Everywhere he
1:23
goes, Bill takes music with him, listening to a broad
1:25
variety. And at home, he spends as much time as
1:28
possible walking trails or out in his
1:31
kayak. As a reminder, before we
1:34
start today's conversation, please take a moment to subscribe
1:37
to the podcast, leave a, uh, review and share
1:39
Future Christian with a friend. You can connect with Loren,
1:42
Martha and Future Christian on
1:45
Instagram. And we appreciate your voice and how we faithfully
1:48
discern the future of the church.
2:00
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I'm your host
2:03
for today's episode, Martha Tatarnic.
2:06
And I'm really happy today to be joined by
2:09
the Reverend Dr. Bill Harrison. Welcome.
2:12
M. Bill, it's so great to have you on our program.
2:16
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: Thank you so much, Martha. It's great to be here.
2:19
>> Martha Tatarnic: Great. So we um, we have a really
2:21
interesting conversation ahead of us,
2:24
but uh, we always, you know, like to give a
2:27
little context to our listeners
2:30
for who is speaking and uh,
2:33
where they're coming from and what they're saying.
2:35
So maybe Bill, you can just start
2:38
us off by sharing a little bit about your faith journey.
2:41
What it has looked like in the past and what it
2:44
looks like now.
2:46
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: Sure. Um, so I'd say it's a
2:49
journey into greater and greater complexity.
2:52
Um, one of my, one of my little kind
2:55
of self description things that I used in a sermon once
2:58
and then it stuck was that I've become the complexity
3:01
fly. I, I, I fly around saying, you know,
3:03
it's always more complicated than that. I actually,
3:07
I actually grew up in a fundamentalist context.
3:10
Um, and, and that, you know, it
3:13
had A fairly clear, fairly simple sense
3:16
of what Christianity is all about. And
3:19
for me, that, that really fell apart uh, when
3:22
I became an undergraduate and you know, did a
3:25
whole variety of reading, started tackling, um,
3:28
more complex and interesting questions. So it kind
3:30
of went beyond the community in which I grew
3:33
up. Um, that's actually when I became an
3:36
Anglican, which is, I mean, I guess what I officially
3:39
am. Um, and for me
3:41
that that shift was uh, in large
3:44
part about being able to hear and hold,
3:47
uh, a variety of different voices.
3:50
Um, since then I've done a whole bunch of
3:53
ecumenical work so that,
3:55
um, I feel very comfortable in a whole
3:58
variety of Christian contexts. Um, I've
4:01
spent 12 years as co chair of the Anglican United
4:04
Dialogue here in Canada. Um, now
4:07
eight years as president of a Lutheran seminary.
4:10
I'm really involved with the association
4:13
of Theological Schools, which means that I could
4:16
find myself, um, visiting a Roman
4:18
Catholic seminary, a Presbyterian seminary. In
4:21
fact, a bunch of my theological education was actually in a Roman
4:24
Catholic context. Um, so,
4:27
so I've, I've kind of encountered
4:30
a lot of, of Christianities and done some
4:33
thinking about, uh, interreligious relationships.
4:36
So I would say that, that my
4:39
Christianity now is,
4:41
it's, it's complex and it expects
4:44
complex questions and, and
4:47
it's about a lot of openness and about a lot
4:50
of listening, which doesn't mean, you know, don't come to
4:53
conclusions, but it means try not to jump
4:56
to them. Um, and, and try to be,
4:59
try to be attentive. Attentive, uh, to what
5:02
people are saying and attentive to the different ways in which
5:05
people encounter God.
5:07
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, I, I, I
5:10
like that. Sort of leaning into the complexity. And
5:13
I can imagine that that would
5:16
have been a, an
5:19
important, um, place to
5:22
find some freedom and a home.
5:25
Um, as you were sort of finding
5:28
one version of Christianity
5:31
falling apart, um,
5:34
and looking for something else,
5:37
uh, I think it can be the great
5:40
gift and the great
5:42
frustration of our particular form
5:45
of Christianity is sometimes just how
5:48
much we lean into the complexity. But would we
5:51
really want it any different?
5:54
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: Yeah, well, um, and that's the challenge, right?
5:56
I mean, one of the challenges that I think we'll be talking about is
5:59
kind of communicating the good news. And that's a whole
6:02
lot more complicated. When you just started out by assuming that
6:05
Christianity is pretty complicated and the world's pretty
6:07
complicated, right, because it doesn't lend
6:10
itself to the quick and easy, um,
6:13
answer, you know, the four spiritual laws or whatever. I
6:16
mean, that, that's all just, it starts out
6:18
as an oversimplification and takes you.
6:21
Um, so. So when you start out with the idea
6:24
that it's all pretty complicated and uh, and that God
6:27
works in different and interesting ways with, with different
6:30
people, um, becomes a
6:33
different kind of way of being. But, but I think it's a richer
6:36
and more satisfying one for me.
6:39
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, for sure. I also like,
6:41
um. As you're naming those
6:44
voyages across different Christian
6:47
context, I often like to
6:50
sort of note the different Christian
6:52
dialects that we have. Like, there are
6:56
just different ways of talking that we have
6:59
in our expressions.
7:02
And it's good to have some fluency
7:05
in understanding those different
7:08
dialects, I think. So you must be pretty
7:10
fluent.
7:12
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: Uh, I do have the feeling of
7:15
being pretty multilingual in Christianity. I do
7:18
have this sense that I can walk, talk into a whole variety
7:21
of Christian contexts and, and have a
7:24
sense of what people are really getting at with,
7:27
with the different languages that, that people
7:29
use. So. But it, you know, it's always a
7:32
journey too, um, because, you know,
7:35
natives in any language always use it
7:38
with kind of subtlety that, that those of us who,
7:41
who are learning different languages as we go
7:45
need, need always to be attentive to.
7:47
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, for sure, for sure.
7:50
So in all of that, uh, traveling
7:53
across the Christian landscape and serving in a
7:56
variety of contexts, is there a
7:58
spiritual practice that you're finding
8:01
particularly meaningful right now that you might want to share with
8:04
our listeners?
8:06
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: Sure. I'm actually going to cheat
8:09
and toss a couple at you. Uh,
8:11
uh, one of them is actually just my writing.
8:14
Ah. Which is if part of what we're going to talk about
8:17
today. Um, my writing is probably my most
8:20
important spiritual practice. That's when I really try to
8:23
come to grips with what God is saying to me.
8:27
For me, that's when I sit
8:29
down and say, okay, what is this for real?
8:33
And that's when I spot the
8:35
vagaries, the fuzzy bits,
8:38
um, the pieces of data that I may be
8:41
leaving out. Um, that's, that's
8:44
kind of when it, when, when there's a certain amount of kind of
8:47
rubber hits the road, when I actually sit down to ride it.
8:50
But it. That's also balanced, I'm going to say,
8:52
by as much time as I can manage in my kayak out on
8:55
the lake. Um, I'm, I'm deeply,
8:58
deeply blessed. We have a condo, uh, on a small
9:01
lake in British Columbia. And, uh, and
9:04
basically between March and November I get out every
9:06
day that I can. And, and I find that it's, it's
9:09
very meditative. I, I have always been
9:12
able to see, go work
9:15
in and behind the
9:18
created order. And so just.
9:21
Just being out in the kayak, it's
9:23
remarkable how many
9:25
unimportant things start to fall away
9:29
and, uh, and how much I have a sense of. Of
9:31
God's presence with me and uh, and
9:34
of being able to. To hear God.
9:37
>> Martha Tatarnic: Beautiful. I, um,
9:40
I really relate to those. To spiritual
9:42
practices. I mean, for me it's running rather
9:45
than kayaking. But like you, writing is
9:49
a, uh, really powerful spiritual practice for
9:52
me. And I think in both cases,
9:55
um, it isn't
9:58
like, both cases are just such an experience of
10:01
grace as well. Like, it,
10:03
uh. It's always amazing to me
10:06
to read back my
10:09
writing and feel like
10:11
there's this real partnership that
10:15
I get to be part of that
10:18
it's not just me who's doing this.
10:22
Um, it's the real receiving of
10:26
that relationship. So, yeah,
10:29
thank you for sharing that. Uh,
10:32
we have lots of people
10:35
listening to the show serving in different contexts
10:38
across the church. And we're always all
10:41
looking for kind of those practical ways
10:43
that we grow and are
10:46
healthy in our relationship with God. So thank you.
10:50
So, as I teased at the beginning, um,
10:53
we have a really interesting topic to
10:56
get into today, and that is
10:58
your newly published book, which is
11:01
called Leadership in a Shrinking
11:04
Finding New Vision in Unlikely
11:07
Places. Um, I have
11:10
lots to, um, reflect on and have been
11:12
reflecting on in reading it.
11:15
Uh, but this is about you. So why
11:18
don't you start by telling us
11:21
a bit about the context in which you serve, which
11:24
is a pretty big player, I
11:27
would say, in how this book came about.
11:30
So maybe you can just talk about that, what you were seeing
11:33
and what prompted you to write this book.
11:36
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: Sure, yeah. And in fact, I begin the book with
11:39
a bit of a story about arriving where I
11:42
am. I'm a Lutheran Theological Seminary based
11:45
in Saskatoon and serving, um,
11:48
the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada,
11:50
predominantly across Western Canada.
11:53
So I arrived at LTS, um, back
11:56
in 2017, um, and I'm
11:59
the president there. And I realized that we
12:02
faced some challenges. Um,
12:04
nothing was quite working.
12:08
The whole system was a bit
12:10
troubled. People, um,
12:13
were at odds. It
12:16
was kind of an. It was
12:19
an unsettling experience. And. And the
12:22
interesting thing is that everyone was locating
12:25
the problem in a different place. So I, you know, I would
12:27
hear from sort of different people, yeah,
12:30
we've got a problem. Here's where it is. Yeah, we've got a problem.
12:33
Here's where it is.
12:35
Um, thing is that
12:38
most of the challenges that people were naming were real,
12:41
but. But they didn't seem like
12:44
the challenge. They felt like
12:47
challenges. Um, and as I examined the
12:50
situation, yeah, I realized that none of them were
12:53
actually the problem. The problem was
12:56
that the seminary had become small and the
12:58
system didn't know it yet. What had happened was
13:01
that over time, it had, you know, shrunk
13:04
a bit here, shrunk a bit there, shrunk a bit here, shrunk a
13:07
bit there. And even as
13:11
it got smaller here and there,
13:13
um, it didn't necessarily kind of of get
13:16
smaller in its. Its sense of. Of what it was
13:19
supposed to do or where it was supposed to do it or. Or
13:22
even really how it was supposed to do it.
13:25
Um, so.
13:28
So basically my. My shift
13:31
was to say, okay, um, this institution has
13:34
gotten smaller. What do they train us to do
13:37
when an institution is getting smaller? Actually, the
13:40
answer is they don't train us.
13:42
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, that's right.
13:43
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: Two institutions getting smaller. In our world,
13:46
getting smaller is mostly seen as failure.
13:48
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yes.
13:48
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: Nobody prepares us for it. Right.
13:50
>> Martha Tatarnic: Truly. Truly. Yeah.
13:54
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: And so that's kind of what launched the book. It was sort of,
13:57
okay, we've got to start thinking about leadership
14:00
in this situation in which getting smaller
14:03
is. Is a reality.
14:04
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah. Because, I mean, everything that you're describing
14:07
in the seminary is absolutely
14:11
paralleled in the experience of
14:13
congregations and other forms of
14:16
Christian ministry right across the board. So,
14:20
um, yeah. Although I don't serve in a
14:22
seminary, reading the opening of your book felt
14:26
exceptionally relatable. Like,
14:29
yeah, that is the situation. And you're right. Like,
14:31
we are not prepared for it because
14:34
shrinking is failing.
14:37
And, I mean, that really leads me into my
14:40
next question, which is, like, we
14:42
interview a lot of people on the future Christian.
14:45
For example, like, Loren just released
14:48
an episode this week, I think,
14:51
um, looking at Robert Schuller's
14:54
biography, which is called the Church Must Grow
14:57
or Perish. Like,
15:01
that's not just the title of Robert
15:03
Schuller's, uh, attitude. Like,
15:06
that is the title of,
15:09
um, the ax that is
15:12
hanging over all of our heads a lot of the
15:15
time. Um, ah, that's what it
15:17
feels like. So
15:20
this doesn't come from nowhere, obviously.
15:23
Everybody likes to grow and succeed
15:26
and feel like we're flourishing
15:29
in obvious and measurable
15:31
ways. But that idea of
15:34
numerical growth is also just, like,
15:37
incredibly,
15:39
um, layered into the DNA
15:42
of what we think we're supposed to be doing as Christians.
15:45
And I know a lot of the people that we talk
15:47
to on this podcast would fully
15:50
subscribe to the notion that numerical
15:53
growth is what we're supposed to be
15:56
doing. Because we are supposed to be sharing the
15:59
gospel, the good news. And if you are
16:02
sharing the gospel, then you will be growing.
16:06
Now, you, like, really take to
16:09
task that numerical growth model
16:11
right at the outset. So
16:15
why don't you take it to task right here?
16:20
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: Okay, absolutely. I mean, you're right.
16:23
Um, and of course, I mean, there is a growth thing that's,
16:26
you know, part of modernity and whatnot. Uh,
16:28
but there is also a deeper narrative
16:31
that, that it's just there in Christianity pretty
16:34
much from the beginning. If, if you look in the Book of Acts,
16:37
it's, you know, the text is punctuated with
16:40
references to many people, sometimes thousands.
16:43
Yeah.
16:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: You know, thousands in a day.
16:46
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: Yeah. And that day 3,000 were added and that
16:49
day 5,000. You know, it's, it's that kind of numbers
16:53
and, you know, there's a sense that this is good
16:56
news and everybody's going to flock to it. And
16:59
so. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's something that's, that's,
17:02
that's kind of part of, as you say, our DNA.
17:05
And, you know, there are parts of the world where Christianity
17:08
is, is seeing numerical growth. Um, but
17:11
in what I call the Anglosphere, you know,
17:14
Australasia, Canada, the uk, US
17:17
Um, we're seeing numerical decline overall. Have been
17:20
for quite some time, and it's pretty substantial.
17:23
So I'd like to jump in and emphasize two
17:26
things as people think about this.
17:28
Um, the first is that people just actually
17:31
aren't joining voluntary organizations at
17:34
all. Um, this just about
17:37
church. This is. They're
17:39
not joining, um, the Lions Club, the
17:42
Knights of Pythias, the Sweet Adelines, you name it.
17:45
And it's true throughout the scouting movement.
17:49
>> Martha Tatarnic: The, um, you know, local bands,
17:52
like.
17:52
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: All of the things, political
17:55
parties, um, you name it,
17:58
um, you know, even, even ones where
18:01
historically it's been a money maker for people to, to
18:03
join the organization. They're not. And even when people
18:06
will join the professional organizations, they're not jumping
18:09
in in a voluntary sort of way in the way
18:12
that they once did. Um, and,
18:15
uh, uh, Robert Putnam wrote Bowling
18:18
Alone. It came out back in 2000 and was
18:20
reissued in 2020. And, and he pointed this out.
18:23
And now there, there are all sorts of things to critique about,
18:26
about Putnam's argument, but nobody disagrees with his
18:29
basic point, which is that voluntary
18:32
organizations are, are shrinking.
18:36
So, so making the assumption
18:39
that getting church right is going to add members
18:42
ends up being just laying out an unrealistic
18:45
assumption. It gets the sociology wrong.
18:49
My concern that that may
18:52
be even a deeper One is that I
18:55
actually think there's a theological problem with the
18:58
way we go at it too. When we
19:00
focus on numbers, we tend to emphasize one
19:03
decision. Now that decision differs
19:06
depending on who you are and where you are in church.
19:10
Um, you know, it might be the choice to attend church.
19:13
It might be the choice to be baptized. It, it
19:16
might be, you know, you might use language of committing your life to
19:19
Christ. Um, but,
19:22
but it tends to be, you know, you've got to
19:25
make this decision to do this. And so, you know, you'll
19:27
be in church and you know, we'll all be
19:30
happy, our churches are growing, et cetera.
19:33
Um, I would argue that it's, it's a
19:36
theological and a practical failure.
19:38
Um, John Bowen uses an
19:41
analogy. He describes it a bit as being a bit
19:44
like someone moving from 49 to 50 on a
19:47
100 point scale. That's not a great
19:49
analogy. It's got its limits. But it's a helpful
19:52
reminder, um, that you know,
19:55
you're only talking about a relatively small
19:58
proportion of what it is to
20:01
be Christian. And from where
20:04
I sit, Christian formation is about more
20:07
than just one decision. Um,
20:10
Christian participation in God's transformation of the
20:13
world is about far more than one decision. And
20:16
so if we're preaching for numbers, then we
20:19
probably aren't really sharing the good news in its
20:21
fullness. And we might not be sharing it for the
20:24
right reasons.
20:26
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, I think, um, that right
20:29
reasons piece is really important as well.
20:31
And you know, I guess I would just add to that like
20:36
so much of the experience of
20:38
that ax hanging over our heads like
20:42
grow or perish, it ends up being about
20:45
competition and just competing
20:48
for a smaller and smaller piece of
20:51
the pie. And that doesn't feel particularly,
20:54
uh, gospel oriented either, to be
20:57
honest.
20:59
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: Yeah, in some of the work that I've done in the past,
21:01
um, one of the things I've noticed is that,
21:05
um, when you see a, uh,
21:07
congregation in an area in a
21:10
city growing fairly rapidly,
21:13
usually what you see is something of a dip
21:16
in the attendance in the
21:18
congregation surrounding it. Um, there
21:21
are probably, um, some
21:24
added new members to the church. Um,
21:27
but commonly what you're doing is seeing,
21:30
um, what sometimes people call
21:32
circulation of the saints. Um, they're just,
21:35
they're just moving, um, because, I don't know,
21:38
there's a new exciting clergy person or
21:40
there's just more going on in that congregation or
21:43
whatever.
21:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Better coffee,
21:47
bigger parking lot.
21:49
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: Yeah. Um, you know, somehow they're,
21:52
they're sort of thriving at that moment. But it,
21:55
but it mostly Isn't changing the. The
21:58
actual dynamic of, of the church or
22:01
its contrib to, To God's transformation
22:04
of the world?
22:05
>> Martha Tatarnic: No, you're definitely not arguing in all of that
22:07
that, um, that the gospel doesn't matter,
22:10
that sharing the gospel doesn't matter.
22:13
So what is it that.
22:15
Why don't you talk to us a little bit about how
22:18
you reframe that model and
22:20
specifically around transformation.
22:24
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: Okay, so that word complex that,
22:27
That I began with, um, that one comes
22:30
right back at us here because I actually
22:32
argue that, uh, the
22:35
transformation that we want to see in ourselves, want to see
22:38
in the church, want to see in the world, the
22:41
transformation that God is working in the world
22:43
is actually much more complex,
22:46
um, than we tend to make it sound.
22:49
Um, uh, and so I actually
22:53
lean on, um, a Canadian Jesuit
22:55
theologian and philosopher, Bernard Lonergan,
22:58
and argue that there are actually
23:01
four aspects of transformation,
23:04
um, that we're wise to attend to, that we
23:07
would like to see in ourselves and that we really want to see
23:10
in the world that really are about what God
23:14
is doing in the world. Um, and
23:17
so those four kinds of transformation are
23:20
intellectual, psychic,
23:23
moral and religious. And I think it's kind of
23:25
interesting that religious comes
23:28
last in the list. Um,
23:31
and I'll say why in a moment. Um,
23:34
but intellectual transformation is actually about
23:38
learning to ask and answer the relevant
23:40
questions. Um, and that means asking questions
23:43
about things that we don't necessarily want to ask about
23:47
and incorporating data that we don't necessarily want to
23:50
incorporate, um, and
23:53
seriously checking our own work so that
23:56
we can really honestly say, yeah, we really did
23:59
ask and answer the relevant questions before we came to
24:02
a conclusion. Um, we like to
24:04
jump to conclusions. And we see a lot
24:07
of that in our contemporary world where you get
24:10
the conclusion that you wanted. Um, and the results
24:14
can really be pretty destructive. And I would argue
24:17
that you can't base a Christianity on.
24:19
On dishonesty. It's, um,
24:23
it's got to be based on. On a real
24:25
transformation there. Um, but the,
24:28
the mind isn't all that we are. Right.
24:31
Um, there's also psychic
24:33
transformation that pays attention to our
24:36
emotions, to our kind of internal, symbolic lives.
24:39
Um, finding ways that, that we work
24:42
emotionally so that we can understand how that
24:46
has an impact on the people around us, has
24:48
an impact on the world, has an impact on our own
24:51
thinking and understanding. And
24:54
moral transformation, um, is
24:57
about paying attention, yes, to our intellectual
25:00
and our psychic stuff and the conclusions that come
25:03
from that, uh, allowing those to have an impact on
25:06
our decisions about right and wrong. And also Being
25:09
prepared to consider the larger questions that touch
25:11
others and not just focusing on self interest.
25:15
What makes all of that possible is what I
25:18
would argue is religious, uh, transformation.
25:21
In fact, what Bernard argues, um,
25:24
is the encounter with love that enables
25:27
us to live in love. It's not true that all you need is
25:30
love. On the other hand, it is true that you need love,
25:33
um, because love is precisely
25:35
what actually drives you forward to try to understand
25:38
the world, to try to understand yourself, and
25:41
to try to do what God would call you
25:44
to do in the world.
25:47
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, well, going through, um,
25:50
those four transformations, you can definitely see
25:53
the appeal of the one and done version
25:56
of Christianity where there is
25:59
just kind of an easy black and white
26:02
answer. Um, we don't have to
26:05
think about it too much.
26:08
Um, but then what you describe
26:11
is, um, so
26:13
resonant, I think, with
26:16
what we really see in our
26:19
congregations, in our ministries,
26:22
in not just our ministries and our churches,
26:25
but how we do attempt to live as
26:27
Christians in the world. Like those
26:30
transformations are descriptive of where we
26:33
see God at work in our world.
26:36
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: I think they really are. Um, I think
26:39
those are the kinds of things that we,
26:43
um, when we see progress and
26:46
transformation in ourselves, those are the kinds of things
26:48
that we're talking about and they are
26:51
often the things that we focus on. You
26:54
know, when people buy things like self help books, those are
26:57
often the kinds of things that they're
27:00
seeking to develop. Um, one of the things I
27:03
would say also is that
27:06
they are the kinds of
27:09
transformations that we hope for when we
27:12
engage with, you know, issues and
27:15
questions in the contemporary
27:18
world and they allow
27:20
us, uh, when we realize that those are
27:23
the kinds of things that we're working toward, Um,
27:26
I think they really help us to figure out, okay,
27:29
how is my position relating to somebody else's
27:32
position? Am I being fully
27:35
open? Am I, um,
27:38
actually asking and answering all of the
27:40
relevant questions? Um, are there emotional
27:43
issues that are just causing me to
27:46
have a kind of gut reaction that prevents me from
27:50
really hearing the person.
27:52
Um, and okay,
27:56
am I really caring about the world here
27:59
or is this one kind of serving
28:02
me under the guise of caring for the world?
28:05
Is it really love in action at the moment, or
28:08
am I kind of limited by, by some of these sorts of
28:11
pieces?
28:12
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think very simply put,
28:15
like, is it actually about
28:18
attending to the presence and activity of God or is
28:21
it about me, you know?
28:24
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: Yes.
28:25
>> Martha Tatarnic: Like, is it about affirming me
28:28
and uh, and at the end
28:31
of the day, like redefining what
28:34
a, ah, thriving church Looks like,
28:37
um, I think allows a pretty massive
28:39
exhale in this time and place.
28:44
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: Yeah. And moving from the me
28:47
or my in group or my,
28:50
um, you know, my social group, my cultural group,
28:54
um, the thing is that that's actually where a lot
28:57
of us are trapped in our churches without even
28:59
necessarily fully realizing it. Because churches
29:02
are, um, you know, they, they have
29:04
cultural histories, they have linguistic histories,
29:07
um, and uh, and those can
29:10
become real,
29:12
um, they have been
29:15
real ways of reaching people and enabling people to connect
29:18
to God. That's a good thing. Uh,
29:21
but they can also become boundaries and uh, even
29:24
barriers in relation to other people when
29:27
other people speak different languages, uh, in including different
29:30
languages about God, uh, when they approach
29:32
questions differently, um, when they
29:35
say, raise questions that didn't even show up in our,
29:38
in our framework. Uh, and so,
29:41
and so I see these
29:43
transformations as ways to cross a
29:46
lot of those boundaries across a lot of those barriers.
29:49
And uh, yes, it's a complex activity,
29:52
but hey, actually one of the cool things about
29:56
humanity is that we are actually equipped for, for
29:58
pretty complex kinds of judgments and
30:01
really complex ways of, of thinking and being.
30:05
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, that's absolutely true.
30:08
Um, so when I was
30:11
reading the book, there was a, ah, particular
30:15
section that really
30:17
impacted me. Um,
30:20
it made me feel very seen.
30:24
I, um, think a lot of people listening to the podcast
30:27
might feel the same way. I'm just going to read
30:29
directly from um, what you've said
30:32
here because I think it's incredibly important.
30:36
So you're talking about outlining the history
30:39
of the role of the pastor, priest,
30:42
minister, and you say the priorities of
30:45
presbyters have changed multiple times over
30:48
the past millennium, which is a good thing. However,
30:51
the role of presbyters has not generally moved
30:54
from one model to the next. Instead, presbyters
30:56
have commonly been expected to keep the old
30:59
rule while adding the new.
31:02
The result has been a destructive
31:05
transformation by accumulation
31:08
in which the responsibilities of presbyters
31:10
have increased until they are simply untenable.
31:13
It has become too big a task for anyone.
31:17
Do you want to just say a bit more about
31:20
what that, ah,
31:23
destructive transformation by accumulation
31:27
looks like? I, and I mean, I want you to
31:30
speak to it, but I think any of us who are
31:32
serving the church right now could probably
31:36
put together a pretty compelling paragraph
31:39
about what that looks like.
31:42
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: Well, yeah, I mean, I mean, put bluntly, it really
31:45
is crushing, um, people
31:48
in that role. I use the word presbyter.
31:51
It's based in the Greek. It helps me to avoid all
31:54
the different terms. Uh, but yeah, nearly all
31:57
churches have people in that role, and they're all
31:59
feeling the pressure. So what I do in the book
32:02
is I go back roughly a thousand years to
32:05
look at the way that the Presbyterian role has
32:08
developed. And what's happened is
32:11
that there's just been a succession of
32:14
priorities to the church that have been reflected in the
32:16
presbyteral rule. And those
32:20
pieces have just been sort of
32:22
piled on prior pieces. So, you
32:25
know, in the Middle Ages, the late Middle Ages,
32:28
at least, the priority for
32:31
presbyters was, uh, the sacramental
32:34
rule. It was, um, you know,
32:37
baptism M. It was
32:40
the mass, um, it was burial,
32:43
um, and perhaps especially, um, the Mass.
32:46
And one of the interesting things about that is
32:49
that for that sacramental role to
32:52
connect to people, it also had
32:54
buildings, uh, very visibly connected
32:57
to it. So that there was an enormous,
33:02
um, building spree, uh,
33:05
for a significant chunk of. Of what we think of as the High
33:07
Middle Ages. Um, so you get the
33:10
sacramental role and the buildings that come with it. And of course,
33:13
Presbyterians end up being, you know, some
33:15
rich people decide they want a building that. That, you know,
33:18
shows off their community and their riches and everything, and
33:21
they. They, you know, provide that. And then basically, you know, they walk
33:24
away, and the presbyter kind of has to take care of it.
33:27
Um, and then, you know, Luther
33:30
and the Reformation, there's a move to
33:33
the emphasis on preaching, on
33:36
proclamation. That does not rule out
33:39
the sacramental emphasis that gets added to
33:42
it. And that in itself,
33:45
um, is. I mean, Luther doesn't
33:48
expect that to be super complicated. He also doesn't
33:50
expect it to be just the work of a presbyter. Uh,
33:53
but in fact, that's how it develops in part because we end up with a
33:56
whole variety of denominations, which, again, adds more
33:59
buildings. Um,
34:02
uh, and we end up with presbyters who then not
34:05
only have to know, so they have
34:08
a fairly clear sense of what they see the gospel as being about.
34:11
They've also got to be able to make a whole bunch of distinctions.
34:14
The average layperson can't distinguish a
34:16
Zwinglian reading, uh, of
34:19
the Eucharist from a Lutheran reading, from an Anglican reading.
34:22
Presbyters are supposed to be able to. They're supposed to get this right.
34:26
Um, so it's a whole kind of intellectual thing and a whole bunch more
34:29
buildings. And then in the
34:31
whole modern period, um, there are a whole bunch of
34:34
philosophical and, um,
34:37
theological movements that actually make
34:40
understanding the Gospel and thinking it
34:43
much more complicated. Um,
34:46
partly because of the way that we read texts now,
34:49
which is much more complex activity than it was in
34:52
like the 16th or 17th century, partly also
34:54
because of how we think about relating to God. This whole got
34:57
more complicated. And that means, you
35:00
know, so now when a
35:03
presbyter prepares a sermon, there's a kind
35:06
of expectation around a whole bunch of, um,
35:08
commentaries and a whole bunch of kind of thinking that they'll do.
35:12
Um, and so this, this kind of
35:14
sits on top. And then in the
35:17
20th century, the whole bunch of professional
35:20
expectations that emerge. Pastoral care
35:22
ceases to be just a kind of fairly basic activity that
35:25
grows out of your theology or grows out of, you know,
35:28
your personal, Personal care becomes a highly
35:30
professionalized activity at which you're highly trained and in
35:33
which there's a high set of expectations set,
35:36
um, that's, that's completely formalized and
35:39
is bounded by a whole bunch of,
35:42
um, you know, insurance issues
35:45
and a whole bunch of, uh, you know, formal
35:48
professionalization issues and legal issues.
35:51
Um, and of course the 20th century tossed, uh, in
35:54
a whole bunch more buildings with a huge building spree in the post
35:57
World War II era. There's also a whole kind of
35:59
professionalization around management and
36:02
leadership that
36:04
presbyters are supposed to be up on. They
36:07
don't have to have an mba, but on the other hand they're
36:10
supposed to know some things about building management, about human
36:12
resources management, et cetera, that once
36:15
upon a time they didn't have to know.
36:18
And um, this all gets
36:21
piled on them. And then there's the digital
36:24
shift. Uh, and suddenly is supposed
36:27
to be able to do all this and, and do
36:29
it, um, while, uh,
36:32
while connecting to people online and, and living in,
36:35
in the digital world. And, and it, it
36:38
just becomes enormous. It's, it's just not,
36:41
it's just not sustainable.
36:45
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean, when you go through the list like that,
36:48
I, I feel
36:51
simultaneously a little panicky
36:56
because I know that list, um,
36:59
and affirmed. And I mean, I do want to
37:01
just say that
37:05
it is one of the joys of the job is
37:08
the complexity that you get to
37:11
continue to be a work in progress. I
37:14
legitimately enjoyed learning how
37:17
social media works to some degree, although my
37:20
kids still think I'm terrible at it. But
37:23
I enjoy new challenges, I enjoy
37:26
figuring things out. I enjoy
37:29
seeing, um, spending my
37:32
days in a whole variety of ways. But I
37:35
also, and I've been pretty open about this over the
37:38
years. Like, I also know
37:40
that hamster wheel that we can get on,
37:44
um, and how easy it is
37:47
to buy into the idea that if
37:50
I just do more and more and more and
37:53
like, um,
37:56
keep pedaling as fast as I
37:59
possibly can, then I'm going to
38:01
personally save this dying
38:04
church. And I'm not talking about, like, a, uh,
38:07
specific congregation. I've been able to
38:10
serve churches that have in many ways
38:13
experienced growth and flourishing. But, you
38:16
know, the institutional weight of
38:18
decline is always with us.
38:21
And, and it is so easy
38:24
in the midst of that enormous job
38:27
description to take on a messiah complex
38:31
and, and think that
38:33
really the job is just about doing more and
38:36
more and more and more.
38:38
Um, and spoiler alert, like,
38:41
it doesn't.
38:44
There's a limit to that.
38:46
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: Yeah, well, and. And it ends up. You end up with a
38:49
job that's kind of defined by tasks with too long a list of
38:52
tasks. Um, and, uh.
38:55
And yeah, I mean, I would argue that if
38:58
attendance numbers were rising, um, the
39:01
load might have been sort of sustainable, at least in part because,
39:04
as you say, I mean, there's a certain amount of joy in
39:07
being able to do a whole variety of things.
39:10
It's, you know, I've also done parish ministry, and, and
39:13
it's one of the things I enjoyed about parish ministry.
39:16
Um, my wife also does parish ministry, and it's part
39:19
of what she enjoys about parish ministry. You know, there are a variety
39:22
of directions you can go, a variety of things you can do, and
39:25
there's always this feeling of, you know, growing
39:27
personally as you grow and learn
39:30
and, you know, all
39:33
great. Um, the problem is
39:36
that, um, you.
39:40
As, as the church shrinks, there tends
39:43
to be less financial and human capacity to pick
39:46
up when the load becomes too much
39:49
and there it ceases to become.
39:52
Um, you know, I can do these things really well and I can
39:55
focus on these, and some other people or some other
39:57
congregations can focus on these different things.
40:00
Um, and instead we're all just feeling the
40:03
stress of there are no
40:05
longer resources to sustain this,
40:10
and it ceases to be, uh, you know, you've got the
40:13
opportunity to do a bunch of things and becomes. You've
40:16
got the pressure to do a bunch of things. You're supposed
40:19
to do everything. You're supposed to be pretty good at everything, because
40:22
if you aren't good at everything, it's actually, it's not going to
40:25
work. The church is going to continue to
40:28
shrink. And, uh, there's also this thing
40:31
about, um, the way that growth
40:34
tends to help people to forgive presbyters
40:37
who can't do everything. Um, you know, if,
40:40
if numbers are growing, then, then the fact that the
40:42
presbyter might preach really well, might
40:46
not be so great at presiding or, or might do
40:48
pastoral care really well, but the preaching isn't
40:51
ideal. Um, or, or might
40:54
actually be, um, be just,
40:57
you know, not very good with social media or whatever. There's,
40:59
there's, there's plenty of room for, for, you know, trying to
41:03
saying, well, you know, we're growing anyway and it's all doing fine.
41:07
When numbers are shrinking and we've all been trained
41:10
that success looks like the numerical model,
41:13
um, then presbyters personally feel
41:15
the pressure of all that they're expected to do.
41:18
And they're also first in line to get blamed for what
41:21
looks like failure. You know, everybody wants the, uh,
41:24
young sort of social media,
41:27
uh, able clergy person that they figure they can
41:30
get who can turn the whole thing around. And if you're not that,
41:33
then you're not that. Um, and
41:38
it's really completely, um, missing
41:41
a point about the work that God's doing in the world.
41:43
Um, and I would say it's really unhealthy
41:46
for the church as well as being really unhealthy for
41:49
presbyters.
41:50
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. And there is a corollary to that as well, which
41:53
I think is important to name because we have church
41:56
leaders of all different kinds of stripes who
41:59
listen to this podcast and
42:02
contribute, uh, to this podcast. And
42:05
that, um, accumulation
42:08
of role can affect people
42:11
in other parts of ministry and the
42:13
church as well. I mean, you document it very well in
42:16
the role of the presbyter, but, like
42:19
the professionalization of church
42:22
wardens and treasurers and music directors
42:25
and like, all of those, um,
42:28
accumulation of tasks. And everybody is,
42:31
is holding the bag on, like,
42:34
whether our efforts are leading to
42:37
growth or not. Um, so.
42:41
And I think that you do a really good job in the book of
42:44
describing the ways that anxious
42:47
systems start to operate when
42:49
everybody's feeling that pressure point.
42:53
Um, I have to say, like, I,
42:57
I have limited
43:00
patience, um, for
43:03
addressing clergy burnout with
43:06
self care, because,
43:10
I mean, I'm a fan of self care. It's just that
43:13
self care doesn't get at
43:16
the problem and in fact can feel kind
43:19
of isolating because it turns it
43:22
back on the, on the clergy person
43:25
again. Like, you just need to be better about your
43:28
day off and maybe get a hobby and stuff
43:31
like that. Um, but it doesn't
43:34
address the bigger issues that
43:37
are leading to the problem. So,
43:40
like, what do you think the role is
43:43
across individual congregations? And then I'm
43:45
really interested in knowing what you think the
43:48
broader denominational role needs to
43:51
be in, um,
43:55
helping to,
43:57
uh, address these realities.
44:00
Unsustainable realities, really.
44:02
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: Right. Um, well, I mean,
44:05
my first straight answer, uh,
44:08
at the congregational level perhaps especially is
44:11
frankly, do less with less.
44:14
I, um, know
44:17
I have a leadership coach. My leadership coach does not like my
44:20
phrase do less with less.
44:21
>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh really? You use
44:24
it quite a few times in the book.
44:26
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: Yeah, because more with less is the idea
44:29
that we have. Right.
44:30
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
44:30
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: Function more efficiently, you get more done
44:33
working, you know. But the reality is that I actually
44:36
think that it's time for churches to start saying
44:39
no, we can't do as much as
44:42
we would like to do. Uh, we just have to recognize
44:45
it and do less with less and,
44:48
and be really, uh, intentional about it.
44:51
Figuring out what you're really about, figuring out how
44:54
you're going to participate in God's transformation of the world and
44:57
focus on that, um, instead
45:00
of really trying to kind of
45:03
COVID all the bases the way that they used to cover them.
45:07
And I think that plays into the
45:10
denominational piece. Um, you know, there are
45:13
some ways that, you know, we're expanding the
45:16
roles of some lay leaders and that's a good
45:19
thing. And you know, seminaries, for instance, are
45:21
participating in that broadening of
45:24
sense of what ministry is and preparing people,
45:27
um, and working on programs to extend the skills
45:30
of presbyters and others in tate accountable
45:33
ministry. But those are really, Those
45:36
are adjustments in a system where the system
45:38
itself is not really working and the
45:41
adjustments aren't going to change the fundamental
45:43
dynamic. So what do I see happening, ah, at. At the
45:46
denominational level that's, that's going to matter.
45:49
I actually think that it's going to be. To be
45:52
less and less denominational. I
45:55
actually think that we're reaching a point
45:58
where um, the.
46:01
The focus on being denominational,
46:04
um, is. Is not,
46:07
uh, Is not really helpful. And so that's
46:10
why, I mean one of the chapters in the book is, Is
46:13
in fact about. About partnering and
46:15
um, you know, fill in some of those
46:18
details. Uh, but it's actually that
46:21
partnering that working beyond denominations,
46:24
indeed working beyond the Christian community,
46:27
um, that I think, uh, makes sense.
46:30
I think it's also going to
46:33
be, um, to be prepared to be quite
46:35
supportive of,
46:38
um, closure of congregations, uh,
46:41
recognizing that the existing
46:43
denominational structures just aren't
46:46
going to make it so really,
46:50
um, denominations need to reconcile
46:52
themselves to a world in which they are
46:55
smaller and getting smaller
46:58
and they'd have to move into different
47:01
arrangements. I could say in the context where
47:03
I am, um, we,
47:06
uh, as a seminary, moved out of a building that, you
47:09
know, people really valued and it was designed and built
47:12
for us back in the 1960s.
47:15
And, uh, it was, you know,
47:18
an enormous building, nearly 60,000 square
47:21
feet. Um, and it just had
47:24
nothing to do with our contemporary needs
47:27
and moved into a smaller space to share with
47:30
a couple of other denominational schools. And we're doing more to
47:33
integrate. And it's going to be that kind
47:36
of experience. I, um, think across
47:38
denominations.
47:40
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I think you're
47:43
absolutely right. And, um,
47:46
a big key, I think, in all
47:49
of this in parish
47:52
and on the denominational level is
47:55
starting with honesty about what's going on,
47:58
which I think, I think is
48:01
super important about your book, like
48:05
naming the truth and then living
48:07
into it, um, instead of trying to
48:10
pretend it's not happening,
48:13
um, your biggest chapter in the
48:15
book is devoted to a particular tool
48:18
that. I don't know, like, did you develop this tool
48:21
or is this, uh, is a specifically
48:24
Harrisonian tool? Okay.
48:28
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: I mean, it's based on all sorts of other things that I've worked
48:31
with through the years. And it's probably not going to
48:34
sound wildly different to people. Um, but no, this is
48:37
a specifically, uh, my development
48:39
piece.
48:40
>> Martha Tatarnic: So it is a gospel vision statement.
48:43
So why don't you tell us what a gospel
48:46
vision statement is and what its core
48:48
elements are.
48:50
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: Sure. Uh, and so a
48:52
gospel vision statement, there are a couple
48:55
of things to remember right from the outset
48:58
that are going to differentiate it. And
49:01
one is that it is an internal
49:04
statement for a congregation that
49:07
tells it what it's really about as an
49:10
institution. Um, well, congregation,
49:13
school, whatever. Um, and so it's
49:15
internal. It's actually intended for the people
49:19
who really participate and are
49:22
very much a part of helping the institution
49:25
to go where it.
49:27
>> Martha Tatarnic: It's not the slogan for the front sign.
49:29
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: It is not the slogan for the front sign. That
49:32
that mission statement that we've all been told that we have to have
49:35
and that. That everybody kind of has and. And puts out
49:38
there. Um, those things tend to
49:41
be really, really general. Um, and
49:44
they tend to be really welcome. And they actually tend to focus on
49:47
welcoming everybody because that's what we want to communicate to
49:49
ourselves and to the world. And that's great as far as it
49:52
goes. Except that the second thing to remember
49:55
is that actually a gosp to
49:58
being actually a bit exclusionary. And,
50:01
uh. I know. And you know that. I know
50:04
that it gets really weird when you start talking about the gospel
50:07
and being exclusionary, except that it's just
50:10
true that not every institution, not every
50:13
congregation, not every seminary,
50:15
not every judicatory actually fits
50:18
the life of everybody. Um, and there are
50:21
going to be some people who are going to be happier at,
50:24
at the church down the street for whatever reason than they
50:27
are at yours. Um, and that's
50:30
fine.
50:30
>> Martha Tatarnic: That's the doing less with less
50:33
in action. You don't have to be
50:36
all things to all people.
50:38
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: That's right.
50:39
And so what a gospel vision statement asks for are
50:42
four things, one of which is a sense of mission.
50:45
And in this case a sense of mission is
50:48
about the aspects of
50:50
transformation. You know, those four transformations we've talked
50:53
about, intellectual, psychic, moral and religious.
50:56
How is your uh,
50:59
congregation, um,
51:02
actually seeking to live those out
51:05
and to engage those in the world? So it's
51:07
about transformation. It's a gospel vision
51:10
statement. It's not just a, like
51:13
a mission statement strategic plan.
51:16
>> Martha Tatarnic: It's like it is gospel. Ah, okay.
51:18
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: Gospel driven. And yeah, I mean
51:21
it's a good basis for a strategic plan. But. But yeah,
51:24
it's the reason I use the language of gospel vision
51:27
statement, which sometimes makes people uncomfortable, but it's supposed to
51:30
keep out right out front that the whole
51:33
thing is actually about the,
51:35
um, is really about that
51:38
vision for the gospel, for the transformation that we're
51:41
trying to build.
51:44
Um, and so it then
51:46
asks about the location. So where,
51:50
whom are you trying to reach? And commonly
51:53
that'll be a neighborhood or a city
51:56
or a couple of townships or something.
51:59
Um, online, um, it may
52:02
be delineated differently. I mean the location is going to be
52:05
something of a virtual location. It's not going to be
52:08
in that way a physical location. But, but you're going to have
52:11
to, to decide whom are you trying to reach, where
52:14
are they located? Um,
52:17
and then so mission
52:19
location, identity. Identity is
52:22
who you are, the core pieces of your self
52:25
understanding for today and tomorrow.
52:27
Um, and you know, if you
52:30
are, um,
52:33
uh, a pretty lively, um, kind of
52:35
charismatic style congregation with a praise band and
52:38
whatnot. And that's working for you, you know, that's
52:41
wonderful. And if that's what's drawing people to you and
52:44
that's who you are and how you worship,
52:46
that's great. There's no point in trying to become,
52:50
um, a, uh, you know, a
52:53
sort of tightly liturgical,
52:55
um, congregation with
52:58
you know, a big organ and whatever, because
53:01
that's just not who you are. So you need to
53:04
decide who you are. And that's part of what will in
53:07
fact end up being a bit exclusionary. Then there's
53:10
the resources. So mission, location, identity,
53:12
resources. And the fun thing about resources
53:15
is that we're used to thinking of resources as things that
53:18
we have, you know, our financial resources Our people,
53:21
um, I ask us to think about resources
53:24
to which we have access. So they
53:27
don't have to be ours. They can come from all sorts of
53:30
partners which might be. Might be of
53:33
our denomination, might be of a different denomination, might be of a different
53:36
religion, might be no religion at all.
53:39
Um, and that's part of starting to try to think this out
53:42
beyond denominationalism because.
53:45
Because frankly, denominations aren't helpful around, Around a
53:48
lot of this. So it's about how are we
53:51
going to participate in transformation in the world
53:54
and whom are we going to reach
53:57
and how are we going to reach them, and what do
54:00
we have to make it happen? And the reality is
54:02
that, uh, by and large, you
54:05
don't have a gospel call that goes
54:08
beyond the resources to which you have access to.
54:11
You may have to stretch in terms of getting access
54:14
to the resources. But basically, if the resources aren't there,
54:17
it's probably not your mission.
54:20
And one of the risks that we run, um,
54:23
that leads to all that stress that we've talked about
54:26
is that,
54:29
um, we try to
54:32
draw a vision that is actually far
54:35
beyond the capacity of, of. Of our
54:37
congregation, the capacity of our financial
54:40
resources, whatever. Um, so that the
54:43
resources are actually going to narrow,
54:45
um, what it is that. That we can
54:48
do, just as our identity narrows it
54:51
and, and the specificity of location narrows it.
54:54
So basically, yeah, I mean, Martha's point about this
54:57
is another instance of do less with less. Yeah. This is actually
55:00
about do less with less. This is about. So
55:03
focus specifically on the transformation that
55:06
you're trying to see.
55:08
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. And I think that you do a really good job of
55:10
balancing that,
55:13
uh, leap in faith that ministry
55:16
always is. Like, there is always a leap in faith
55:19
with, um, just
55:22
very practical assessment of what it is
55:25
that you actually have to work with and who
55:28
you've been historically. Like, if you've historically,
55:32
you know, being, um,
55:35
like a tortoise, don't try to
55:38
market yourself as a stallion.
55:41
Like. Right. Like, just
55:44
be who. Be who you are is
55:47
also, uh, an important part of that. And
55:50
actually another message that you say along with do less
55:53
with less, you say that the message of the book could be like,
55:56
we're called to be who we are called to be.
56:00
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: Yeah. Um, know your mission. Play within
56:03
it. Um, one of the, the more
56:07
interesting conversations that I've had more than once in,
56:09
in work with, with congregations in the past is,
56:12
you know, why aren't we a megachurch? How, how
56:15
can we be, you know, one of those enormous churches like that
56:18
one down on, on the Freeway, where they've got, you know,
56:21
they've got these enormous parking lots, et cetera, et cetera.
56:24
It's okay. Look, you're a
56:27
small neighborhood congregation.
56:30
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
56:30
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: Um, you're built around this set of kind of
56:33
intimate relationships. There's a warmth of support
56:36
and welcome that comes from. From
56:39
you and, and the kind of ways in which you care for
56:42
one another. Actually, I can tell you
56:45
how to turn yourself into a big church
56:48
because there's. There's actually some fairly straightforward
56:51
formula stuff for that. But you know what, but
56:53
that's not what you're called to be. You wouldn't like it.
56:56
All of you would leave before this place became
57:00
a big church. Um, why?
57:03
Uh, you know, your building doesn't do it. The space doesn't
57:06
do it. The people who are here don't do it. Um,
57:10
we would have to change absolutely everything.
57:12
Um, so, you know, know your mission. Play
57:15
within it. God calls and equips us to do what
57:18
God calls and equips us to do. We don't have to
57:21
be all things to all people. Um, we're
57:23
called to participate in God's transformation
57:26
in the world. And we're called to be
57:29
ourselves transformed.
57:32
And so it's focusing
57:35
on that message of God's transformation in
57:38
our lives and in the lives of the world.
57:41
That's where it's got to be.
57:43
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, that's where it's got to be.
57:45
I want to plug for,
57:48
um, our listeners that throughout the book,
57:51
uh, you have questions at the end of
57:54
every chapter. And, um, you
57:57
provide ample examples of
58:00
what a gospel, ah, vision statement can look
58:03
like and how to go about doing
58:05
that with your community. So,
58:08
um, it's a book
58:11
that is really rich in lived
58:14
experience and theological insight, but
58:17
it is also kind of a practical workbook for
58:20
being able to navigate some challenging times.
58:23
So, um, I
58:26
think that will be encouraging to people who are feeling those
58:29
pressure points right now.
58:31
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: Thanks, Martha. That's great to hear. Yeah.
58:34
My take is very much that it's intended
58:37
to be as much a workbook, um,
58:40
as, um, uh, a book that sort of
58:42
encourages people and welcomes people to think about. About
58:45
some of the challenges. Um, because the
58:48
hope is that, um, you
58:51
can take this into a place like a
58:54
congregation and actually sit down with people
58:57
and help them to begin to think about what the gospel
59:00
really means for their lives and what it really means
59:03
for their communities there, the people
59:06
with whom they're working and the places and people
59:09
whom they're trying to reach, um,
59:11
so that they can themselves, um, have A sense
59:14
that they're understanding God's transformational
59:17
work, uh, in their lives and that
59:20
they're really engaging with the
59:23
challenges.
59:25
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, we are both people who,
59:28
uh, have the privilege of talking to a lot of
59:31
people across the Christian church.
59:34
And there are a lot of
59:39
places of grief in
59:42
letting go of, um, a
59:45
particular way of being church. There can
59:47
be a sense of exhaustion,
59:51
of um, of
59:54
despair, a failure.
59:58
Where do you. Where do you experience
1:00:01
God though? Like, where do you. Where are you
1:00:04
seeing. Experiencing the um, the energy,
1:00:06
the vitality, the hopefulness of
1:00:09
God as you're putting this book out
1:00:12
there, as you're naming these realities, as you're
1:00:15
engaging with real people doing this
1:00:18
real thing, like where is the
1:00:21
energy and vitality of God showing up in a shrinking
1:00:24
church?
1:00:26
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: So I'm going to tell you, actually, I had the experience just a
1:00:29
couple of days ago. So I was chatting
1:00:32
with. With a, uh, group in a
1:00:34
congregation. I was invited to chat
1:00:37
with the Congregational Council,
1:00:40
um, about some of the stuff in my book.
1:00:43
And I was given a very short period of time,
1:00:46
um, that I was going to be
1:00:49
able to do. And they had some planning to do.
1:00:53
So I figured, okay,
1:00:56
we'll build primarily on planning principles and we won't spend
1:00:59
a lot of time with the transformation stuff.
1:01:01
Um, you know, I'll name it and go right by it.
1:01:05
Um, in fact, what happened was,
1:01:08
you know, I, I had 30 minutes. We got to
1:01:11
the end of the 30 minutes and uh. And. And
1:01:14
people wanted to. To kind of pursue some questions.
1:01:17
Um, well, by the time we called it a day,
1:01:20
um, we had put in over an hour and 10 minutes
1:01:23
and. And they just weren't actually going
1:01:26
to settle for some basic planning principles.
1:01:29
They wanted to get right into this stuff about
1:01:31
transformation. They wanted to get
1:01:34
right into the issues about what God was
1:01:37
about. And I could feel, you know,
1:01:40
as. As I was facing the questions,
1:01:43
I could feel, you know, there's. There's a little bit of. Kind of frustration in
1:01:46
the room. People have. There's some issues here that. That just
1:01:49
aren't getting named. And it was when we actually got
1:01:52
deep into the transformation stuff and people began to
1:01:55
talk about how this was affecting their lives and
1:01:58
how they could actually, you know, begin to commun.
1:02:01
And some of those sorts of pieces that actually the. The
1:02:04
feeling of. Of. Of um, you
1:02:06
know, issues there that. That went away
1:02:09
and there was just this sense of. Of excitement.
1:02:12
And now, you know, is. Is that,
1:02:15
um, you know,
1:02:18
did we change the world? No, we probably didn't. But on the
1:02:21
other hand, um. There, there
1:02:24
was some definite engagement with what God is doing,
1:02:27
and that is the kind of thing that
1:02:30
resonates. What I'm really noticing, just
1:02:33
even inside the church that constitutes
1:02:36
a kind of hope and excitement,
1:02:40
is the extent to which people are actually prepared to
1:02:42
engage with the Gospel in complex
1:02:46
and even, um, demanding sorts of
1:02:49
ways. Um, the other thing that I'm going to say
1:02:52
is that when I chat with people who aren't
1:02:55
Christians, they're actually much more
1:02:57
interested in talking about what
1:03:01
contribution Christianity might make to,
1:03:05
uh, world transformation, um,
1:03:08
than, you know, than they might have been once upon
1:03:11
a time. I know that when I grew up, there was a sort of, you were
1:03:14
either Christian or you weren't.
1:03:15
>> Martha Tatarnic: And it was all, yeah, a bit of hostility.
1:03:18
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: Yeah, I think. Yeah. And
1:03:21
I don't see the same thing. Um, it's
1:03:24
not going to feed our numbers, um,
1:03:27
but it's setting us up
1:03:32
for a conversation about
1:03:34
transformation. And
1:03:37
I think that, at least in part, some of the things that are
1:03:40
going on politically, some of the things that are going on,
1:03:43
um, in just sort of the organization of the
1:03:46
Anglosphere these days, are actually pushing people
1:03:49
to ask deeper questions
1:03:52
about what religion might mean and perhaps what
1:03:55
Christianity might mean.
1:03:57
>> Martha Tatarnic: I think that's an amazing note to,
1:04:00
uh, take a break on because,
1:04:04
again, I really relate to that description.
1:04:07
I see those sorts of things as well, that
1:04:10
curiosity, that engagement,
1:04:12
um, that commitment
1:04:15
to really, uh,
1:04:18
attend to what God is doing, um,
1:04:20
inside our churches and in interesting
1:04:23
ways outside of our churches. So,
1:04:26
yeah, thank you, Phil, for,
1:04:28
um, helping
1:04:31
us probe your offering here.
1:04:34
And, uh, again, I just want to make sure before we
1:04:37
take our break that people know that the name of the book is
1:04:40
Leadership in a Shrinking Church and
1:04:43
that they should check it out. We'll take a quick
1:04:46
break and we'll be back with some, um, closing questions.
1:04:52
Welcome back to the Future Christian Podcast.
1:04:55
I am here with the Reverend Dr. Bill
1:04:57
Harrison and we are going to get into our
1:05:00
closing questions. So, Bill, we always
1:05:03
tell our guests that you are free to
1:05:06
take these questions seriously or not.
1:05:09
Um, but, ah, if you were
1:05:11
Pope for a day, how
1:05:14
would you fill out those 24 hours?
1:05:18
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: Okay. Um, the challenge, of course, with
1:05:21
being Pope for a day is that, uh, is that you'd
1:05:24
hope that you can make some changes that would last.
1:05:27
So I would definitely pick up the
1:05:29
synodality conversation, uh, that they're
1:05:32
having, ah, about,
1:05:34
um, the ways in which people communicate.
1:05:38
Um, but it would also be pushing for some pretty
1:05:41
radical changes around things like the ordination of women and
1:05:44
welcoming people of different gender. And sexual identities.
1:05:47
How much that would last beyond the 24 hours
1:05:50
is its own question.
1:05:52
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, maybe, um, being Pope for the day,
1:05:55
it should be like the, huh, genie
1:05:58
in the bottle. Your first wish is for a million more
1:06:00
wishes, like your first day as Pope. You could
1:06:04
make yourself Pope for
1:06:07
the rest of time or something.
1:06:09
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: Something like that.
1:06:10
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. So you can get
1:06:13
that lasting change done. Or as you said,
1:06:16
just work with the, the, the city of it. That's
1:06:19
another method. Um, is there a
1:06:21
theologian or historical Christian figure who you
1:06:24
would want to meet, bring back to life, have
1:06:27
supper with?
1:06:29
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: It would absolutely be Bernard Lonergan, uh, who's
1:06:32
at the root of, of a lot of that transformation piece. Ah,
1:06:35
that, that we've talked about in, in relation to my book.
1:06:38
Um, and uh. And I mean, part of
1:06:41
the fun stuff, of course, is that he really did,
1:06:44
uh, come from Canada, uh, born in,
1:06:47
in the Ottawa Valley and, and spent time
1:06:50
in Toronto and, and in Guelph. Um,
1:06:53
and uh, he also spent some time in Boston where I did my
1:06:56
PhD. So, so we actually have a lot of
1:06:58
places in common. And in fact, we actually
1:07:01
have people in common because people like my, my doctoral
1:07:04
director actually sort of knew him.
1:07:07
And so, so we have places and people in common. And
1:07:10
I would really like to be able to, to kind of
1:07:13
pick his brain and, and work deeply into
1:07:16
how some of that transformation stuff can play in a
1:07:19
contemporary world. That would probably actually play
1:07:22
back into being Pope for a day, because I think it would be interesting
1:07:25
navigating the Roman Catholic context with some
1:07:28
advice and direction from Bernard Lonergan today.
1:07:31
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Okay, so you can just wrap those
1:07:33
two questions into one. You Pope for the day
1:07:36
and have Lonergan at your side.
1:07:40
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: That would be ideal.
1:07:42
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay.
1:07:43
What will history remember from our current time and
1:07:46
place?
1:07:47
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: Um, I think the biggest
1:07:50
piece that history is going to remember is in fact
1:07:52
irrationality. Um, we're
1:07:55
in a time in history where irrationality, as
1:07:58
in a certain kind of opposition
1:08:01
to thinking deeply and in
1:08:04
complex ways about the future, um,
1:08:07
is not, not really in vogue.
1:08:10
Um, I think that I lean a
1:08:13
lot on the conversation about intellectual transformation right
1:08:15
at the moment because it's that. That one I think
1:08:18
distinguishes, um, where a Christian sits
1:08:21
in the contemporary conversations.
1:08:23
Um, so, yeah, so
1:08:26
I think irrationality is, is going to be
1:08:29
going to be the big thing. I hope that we're
1:08:32
also going to be able to see, um, some
1:08:35
conversation about transformation that will come out of it.
1:08:38
But right at the moment, irrationality
1:08:40
seems to be the leader.
1:08:42
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, that's a very insightful answer.
1:08:45
Um, the last question
1:08:48
I feel like we've sort of been talking about
1:08:51
throughout our entire conversation, but
1:08:53
what are your hopes for the future of Christianity?
1:08:57
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: Um, yeah, this really is just kind of
1:09:00
wrapping up basically what we've been saying. What I would hope for is
1:09:03
deeper transformation for all of us. Us
1:09:05
and uh, deeper transformation for the world. It
1:09:08
would be deeper intellectual, psychic,
1:09:11
moral and religious transformation. I
1:09:14
would love us to be, um, more deeply
1:09:17
in love with God and the world
1:09:20
and seeking a deeper understanding of it.
1:09:23
Seeking a deeper understanding of ourselves, both the way
1:09:26
our intellects work and the way our psyches work,
1:09:30
uh, and seeking to understand the. The world so
1:09:32
that we can participate in God's transformative, uh,
1:09:36
work in it. So it would definitely be about
1:09:39
deeper transformation.
1:09:41
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, that is a lovely
1:09:44
answer and it's on brand, so
1:09:48
I'm glad that you didn't throw us
1:09:51
a major curveball there at the end.
1:09:55
Um, where can people find out more about you? Bell?
1:09:59
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: Um, probably the easiest place is to find me
1:10:01
on Facebook, um, just Bill Harrison.
1:10:05
Or you can find me at Lutheran, uh,
1:10:07
Theological Seminary. Um,
1:10:10
uh, because those are the places where
1:10:13
um, the information is most up to date.
1:10:16
>> Martha Tatarnic: And how can people get a hold of this book?
1:10:19
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: Um, it's available through most major,
1:10:23
certainly most major online, uh, retailers,
1:10:25
Indigo, Amazon, um,
1:10:28
various other, uh, online
1:10:30
retailers. And uh, you can certainly order
1:10:33
it through your local Indigo. Um,
1:10:37
uh, if there's one of those handy to you.
1:10:39
>> Martha Tatarnic: Great. Well, thank you so much for your
1:10:42
time today, Bill. Thank you for the book.
1:10:45
Thank you for your insights for our
1:10:48
future Christian community. We always end with a word
1:10:51
of peace, so may God's peace be with you, Bill Paul.
1:10:55
>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison: Thank you, Martha. And may God's peace also be with
1:10:58
you and, and with the, uh, the community. Thank you,
1:11:01
thank you Martha for taking time with me
1:11:04
and, and thank you to those of you who, who
1:11:06
watch the. The podcast. I appreciate you
1:11:09
paying attention to the, the. The pieces that we.
1:11:20
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast. The
1:11:23
Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate Media.
1:11:26
We love to hear from our listeners with questions, comments
1:11:29
and ideas for future episodes. Visit
1:11:32
our website at, uh, future-christian.com
1:11:35
and find the Connect with Us form at the bottom of
1:11:38
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1:11:41
But before you go, do us a favor. Subscribe to
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1:11:48
>> Martha Tatarnic: Thanks.
1:11:48
>> Loren Richmond: And go in peace.