Latest / The BioHub - by Avetix / Episode 146 - Jeremy Skillington - CEO of Poolbeg Pharma

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Episode 146 - Jeremy Skillington - CEO of Poolbeg Pharma · The BioHub - by Avetix

• 0:05
  To welcome back to another episode of the Bio Hub and
• 0:08
  Abetics Podcast, I'm here with Jeremy Skillington, the CEO of
• 0:12
  Pullback Pharma. It's a pleasure to have you.
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  How are you? Great to be here very well, very
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  well today. Yeah, it's a pleasure to do it
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  in person as well. We don't always get that.
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  That's good, Yeah. And all this is where we're,
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  you're over in London, all of the tax.
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  It's always nice to make opportunities.
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  We've got an investor presentation tonight.
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  So as they say, we're, you know, good to sit down and say make
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  the time. Amazing.
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  Yeah. I want to start with you as you
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  started at Genentech doing BD, you then went into founding,
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  building and exits in different companies, now a public company
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  CEO. Yes, just tell us about the
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  journey. How much time do we have?
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  But yeah, it's, it's, I would say it's an unusual one, but I
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  was quite fortunate. You know, you always thought
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  about the sliding doors monitor. See, I was doing my PhD work in
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  Ireland. So now I applied and received
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  funding to go to UC San Francisco on a student exchange
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  scholarship and fantastic place to do science, really top class,
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  you know, levels of research. I really enjoyed my my time in
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  the lab. You know, I was cheeky enough to
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  ask my boss at the time if I could stay on and do more
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  research, say on do a postdoc after my PhD had finished.
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  And he was happy to take me on a productive several few years.
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  But I think my head got turned where I see my my postdoc
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  colleagues, you know, B ring away writing grants, you know,
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  like a lot of work in the research.
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  I think my personality was more and needs to be elder and more
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  rather than kind of stuff in the lab.
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  Really enjoy the science and talk to a lot of people And you
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  Bay Area, you know, San Francisco Bay Area is where the
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  biotech industry started. And ironically, the first
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  company that was stark. It is genetic, you know, spun
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  out of UCSF because mentally and Stanford and is based on genetic
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  engineering technology where the words Genentech comes from.
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  And you know, talk to a lot of people, you know, understanding
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  where the work that I was doing is with basic science.
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  And then how does that translate into making drugs that
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  ultimately have been for patients?
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  So it's kind of if you understand the science, you
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  understand diseases, you can understand how's the remedy.
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  So I was kind of interested in that aspect, but not really on
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  the research side. So again, talking to a lot of
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  people's, I felt my personality fish with the side of the
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  business, which is business development, where essentially
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  you're out there in the world. So you're talking to academics,
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  you're talking to other biotech companies, pharma companies
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  looking to establish collaborations.
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  You know, we could bring expertise.
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  I'll give the example of Genentech is an antibody
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  engineering and you might have an academic.
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  And we actually did a, a deal here in London with Cancer
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  Research technology, as was at the time on a, on a, a target
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  around an oncology target, you know, where they had a target
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  that was of interest and we could bring antibodies, you
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  know, So we did a lot of those kind of deals, but it got me out
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  there like, so I'm still using science, but it got me talking
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  to a lot more people. So I was fortunate enough, as I
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  say, kind of applied for the job.
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  There's an opening, this is, I say, way back when was it back
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  in 2002. And Genentech were pretty, they
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  were a busy company, a growing company.
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  There were five and a half thousand people at the time.
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  They rapidly grew to 11,000 in the 6 1/2 or so years that I was
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  there. But it gave me a great
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  opportunity to understand the industry, you know, not just the
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  business side that, but what it takes to get it a drug kind of
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  discovered. Yeah.
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  And then true preclinical, true, you know, toxic ecology into
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  clinical research, the whole complexity of people you know,
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  maybe don't fully understands. It's a regular free aspect.
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  You know, how to ultimately get dialogues and discussions with
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  the regulators, you know, the FDA, the rests or the of HRA,
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  the UK and how to get drugs approved and ultimately get to
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  the patients. And of course, you need a market
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  as well. So you've got genetic is
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  fantastic company to see that full spectrum of what it takes
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  to get as I say, original idea disco in academic discovery.
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  You'll get at the patients and it's a long, arduous process.
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  It's a very expensive process. But the business development
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  team that I, you know, ended up in, you know, again come my
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  lucky stars, you know, but a fantastic team of somewhere
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  other scientists. Some of them are when lawyers,
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  you know some of them are more on the commercial side.
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  But it is a great, you know, mix and match of of people with with
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  various experiences. And we just had a wonderful sign
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  as the company was growing when we were adding products, you
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  know potential products to the genetic pipeline.
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  A lot of Leah was going terrifically well and genetic at
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  the time where majority owned by Rosh.
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  Yeah, you know, Basin Basil, you know, big Pharma company and
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  Rosh thought it was a good use of their funds to buy
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  essentially the remaining, you know, portion that the 44%
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  people was of of Genentech. So they came with a tender
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  offer. It was initially rejected enough
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  for time ever that was, you know, accepted.
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  And so essentially they became wholly owned, you know, company
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  of of June Jilantech. And that was a nice jumping off
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  point a for us. You know, I had a young family
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  in California. My wife is Irish as well.
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  There was some, you know, aspects of the bite against
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  growing in Ireland. So it was a nice jumping off
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  points to kind of come back in 2009 and that's when I came back
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  to Ireland. I worked for a biotech company
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  in our Opsona Therapeutics and you know, they were doing some
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  really innovative work on targeting delete graph function
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  as was more, you know, you're trying to stop inflammation and
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  working with an academic scientist or Luke O'Neill who
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  we've become really good friends since then.
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  And I spun a company out of trial of Opsonic called Trauma
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  Therapeutics. Now you're getting back to the
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  time where you know, they they talk now about biotech funding
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  is challenging. It was extremely challenging
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  back then where we did manage to raise a kind of AC Browns and
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  did some really interesting work, some really good data you
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  but but 2 1/2 years they may realize there's no funding.
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  You know, it's just a tough, tough time.
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  So you know, we you said I was a company started but ultimately
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  didn't, you know, didn't work out.
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  But it's interesting in one of the in the real potential
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  investors in that company, you know, they decided not to invest
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  in the end. But I kind of mentioned that,
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  OK, you know, I think we have to wind down the company.
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  But they had a couple of portfolio companies that needed
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  some business development help, you know, say can you join us
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  and help with these companies? It was a nice segue.
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  I must say, in a fantastic group of people.
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  They were based in Dusseldorf with the companies, one was
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  which outside Munich and one was in there in Zurich.
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  So I started working for those two companies trying to
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  establish, you know, industry collaborations, industry
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  partnerships, what the company's activists who were one of the
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  early movers in MRA technology. We managed to get a deal with
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  Astrazeneca's time. Just they were inexparted.
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  It was, you know, quite significant for the company.
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  But you know, I was working a way through that.
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  But then I was contacted again. It's all about networking.
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  It's all about, you know, people who know you are maybe like
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  working with you. But Duke or Neil, the Kobe one
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  day he's an esteemed academic, a fantastic world's, you know,
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  renowned immunologist, uh, called new 2016.
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  So we're starting a company called Inflazon and, uh, we're
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  focused on a target called NLRP 3 and, uh, we've, we're lining
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  up investments, but I think this would be an interesting, you
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  know, starting, you know, a company has just been started to
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  take all the way through and uh, again, ultimately either pharma
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  partnerships or acquisitions now, yeah, sounds fantastic.
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  Began the science behind it was tremendous and lobby tree just
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  for very briefly is a is a an inflammatory modulator.
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  So as we hear the old good example things like gauge
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  crystals as one example, so that the inflammation in your toes we
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  got is driven by then Robbie tree just drives that
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  inflammatory response. But it also has applications to
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  Parkinson's disease and Alzheimer's disease.
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  These you know, protein aggregates trigger and the lumpy
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  tree. So a wide range of diseases.
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  So we had a fantastic team Lymphasol.
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  We got a really small team of about 15 people led by a
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  fantastic CEO, Nat Cooper, who has his own, you know, startup
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  in the Cambridge area and, uh, did some tremendous work there,
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  took drugs into the clinic. Uh, we got some really
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  impressive data, you know, in early, you know, technical
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  trials. And my job at the time was to
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  court all of these pharma companies.
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  Here's what we're doing here is the day, here's the science,
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  here's the update. Yeah, we're in the clinic.
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  Here's the thing that did and keep them all moving.
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  It was a maybe a, a good juggling going on, keeping them
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  all, uh, you interested, but a competitive tension.
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  And we had a few companies that were significantly interested.
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  But ultimately, and as the world turns, the companies are
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  acquired by our friends in Rosh. OK, back in 20.
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  So cynical full circle is one thing, but, but I will say like
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  this industry is fantastic. We said the the online goal of
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  helping patients is what drives us.
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  But I think the network, the you know, as I say, for a lot of
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  the, the, the deals that I've done passed has always been that
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  connection, that contact. Yeah.
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  And obviously, you know, Ross is what is that a pharma companies
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  were part of the discussion, but I had really good relationships
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  with people on the other side, particular Ross.
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  So they knew my style, I guess my character, you know, I'm not,
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  I'm not one of these, you know, bluffers.
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  You know, it's kind of like what I say, you know, is, is
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  accurate. So we had some really good
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  discussions and dialogues. We had, you know, Ross, you're
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  very interested at the time the, the pandemic ish, you know, so
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  we were actually, you know, at the time, I remember thinking,
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  it's how we have to download an app called Zoom.
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  And then I never heard of it before.
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  And obviously it's every day right now.
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  But back then it was, it was, it was a fantastic tool to get 50
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  people on a call talking about your programming products and
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  diligence. So it was great like Ross as
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  they kind of acquired the company in the 2020 and we
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  worked through the, you know, the data transfer, tech transfer
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  and knowledge transfer a second. And then I was contacted by Kaho
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  field starting a new company Kubek Pharma.
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  Yeah, there was spinning out of HV walk who run Kun viral charge
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  that is here in London. And Carlos they were we're
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  taking the biotech arm of this company and forming food bank
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  would initially focus on infectious diseases.
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  So in a pandemic infectious diseases I'm in yeah.
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  And again, it was my, my first taste, I guess of the public
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  markets. And I think that's been an
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  interesting journey. I think there's been a lot of
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  discussion around how to make the UK public market stronger or
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  better or greater liquidity. Yeah, we've had our challenges
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  in that regard. Bush, we've remained focused as
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  a company, you know, pushing our programs forward.
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  We've took, we took an interesting detour maybe 2 or so
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  years ago, you're deflecting against some infectious diseases
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  where the appetite was decreasing.
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  But now we've got a really exciting lead crowded to program
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  that targets cytokine release syndrome or cytokine storm yeah
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  associated with cancer neurotics.
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  So we're you know fantastically excited about that program.
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  We have done a lot of work in the last seven years.
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  We're about to start technical trials to your trial and that to
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  test it in patients, most of my level patients.
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  So again, you don't work kind of full circles.
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  I mean it's sometimes it's linear, sometimes their vectors
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  take different detours, but at the end of the line is always
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  patients. Yeah, I think we're very excited
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  to see the data and I said that's moving well.
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  We should have the interim data by the summer and we're all just
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  as they're working hard to get there as quickly as possible.
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  Again, very excited. You know, should it work?
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  I think it'll be game changing not just for patients, but I
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  think for the industry because these cancer immunotherapies,
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  their T cell engagers, they're fantastic efficacy with the side
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  effect outside of that storm is a is a significant issue.
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  So if we can eradicate, eliminate that, I think we're in
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  really good shape. So I'm not going to say wash
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  will come around again, but we are able to.
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  But I wouldn't say like using my business development background,
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  we're always talking to farmer walls updating and what we're
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  doing, you know, unfortunately for this technical trial, we're
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  partnered with Johnson, Blue Johnson, who have provided us
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  with their drug. You know that they is it's a
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  marketed drug to the fist amount that's given the mostly minor
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  patients knowing that the efficacy is terrific, but the
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  side effects, you know, are coming.
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  Yeah. So we have a drum that we
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  believe would prevent the side effects from happening.
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  So that kind of change, a set up in the chair, you know, that's
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  if if that works, you know, this is a game changer for for their
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  portfolio of cancer neural verbiase, because then they can
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  go directly to community hospitals instead of having to
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  go to these dedicated yeah, cancer kidneys or academic
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  centered. So they can see that they can
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  get, you know, more of their drug, some more patients.
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  And, you know, as I say, that's the new win for everybody.
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  I liked. So we're very excited.
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  So as I say, we're we're, you know, been pushing pretty hard
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  to get this, you know, intubation as quickly as
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  possible. But or everything was lining up
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  right now for, as I say, to help them trend data by the summer.
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  Yeah, sounds super exciting. I think, you know, when you talk
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  through your journey, the one thing keeps popping up is, you
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  know, there's so and so introduced me and and just the
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  broad network you have so 20 of the younger generation looking
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  to make their way in biotech. That's that's pretty big lesson
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  in its own right. It really is.
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  And I, I was told to be about the recent stage.
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  And there was one very, very good college.
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  She's a professor in Ireland. And I was saying, you know, I
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  got the sense that the younger generation these days are not as
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  open. Yeah.
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  To networking, you know. Even that's part of COVID to.
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  What you don't have as well, but it was she had a very valid
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  point where she goes like like when we were trying to, you were
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  exactly the same, you know, So maybe when you when you look
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  bad, do you think like there's a little bit I I do think it is
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  natural. There's a little bit of that,
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  you know, kind of it's, it's kind of modest courage or
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  somebody just back in the day used to pick up the phone, but I
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  was dropping an e-mail. But most people are, are open or
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  accepted or yeah, if you have it's not you don't even have to
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  do ourselves. Like, you know, you know, I'd
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  like some guidance or some help people, even though people are
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  extremely busy. Yeah, they're always willing to
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  say, oh, you know, like I was new once you're always and it is
• 13:28
  you talk about full circle that maybe a theme of this
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  discussion. But you know, full circle is
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  like, I was there once and he'd like to help.
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  Yeah, yeah. Coming through, you know, we
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  kind of, you know, not quite standing or shortage of giants,
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  but it's kind of help you give a gum True, But it's it's an
• 13:40
  interesting aspect of you know, I think, you know, obviously
• 13:42
  people talk about kind of COVID even, you know, a year and my
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  son had a year and a half, you know, in school, you know,
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  basically half it was at home, half it was in school.
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  You know, I was a little disrupted.
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  I do know the year before my son, their first year of
• 13:56
  college, because essentially on the computer, which is tough.
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  You know, you see, you go to college as you mix and you know,
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  you develop a personality, you find friends for life, etcetera.
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  So there's that bit of a gap, but I think it's bit maybe a bit
• 14:07
  like a you know, a little little heel over.
• 14:11
  I think you haven't seen anything on towards.
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  Yeah, yeah, sure. And then you also talked about
• 14:17
  different market conditions for your career and then the pivot
• 14:20
  from infectious disease to oncology.
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  How? How has pullback dealt with the
• 14:25
  more recent market changes? Yeah, it's, you know, we have a
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  fantastic team. As I said, we we've got, it's a
• 14:32
  small team, but as I say, we've got kind of research scientists,
• 14:35
  we've got their clinical operations, we've got your
• 14:37
  clinic market ready for. Yeah, everybody weighs in and
• 14:41
  everybody has your opinion. I think it kind of helps us all
• 14:43
  understand the different components maybe we're we're not
• 14:46
  experts in yeah, but we we did as say the pivot is interesting
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  is that starting as a spin out in infectious diseases.
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  We were pursuing severe influenza and this is again
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  where patients are going to, you know, it's reminisces of COVID
• 15:00
  where the sickest patient have a cytokine storm.
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  And if your immune system is overactive, you could say it's
• 15:06
  kind of overreacting for the presence of of the viral trigger
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  a lot of the time, you know, when the cytokine storm is
• 15:12
  ongoing, the virus is already gone, but the immune system has
• 15:14
  like a runaway train and it's kind of hard to stop.
• 15:17
  Yeah. So we looked at that.
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  We did an initial clinical trial in the Netherlands where we
• 15:22
  trigger patients and foundry responses using a bacteria
• 15:26
  fragmented PS. And it was a terrifically
• 15:28
  informative clinical trial. And that the day we got from
• 15:30
  MASH convinced us that our drug, you know, POD 001, it gets a
• 15:36
  target PTO liat not kinance, again, an inflammatory target.
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  And if you block it, we don't have this inflammatory response,
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  which is terrific. And you know, so many kind of
• 15:46
  commented, you know, a few of a few of our kind of part in this
• 15:48
  questions that for severe influenza, the patients are
• 15:52
  already in the intensive care. So if you give your drug kind of
• 15:55
  after the fact, can you we'll bring it back to based on that's
• 15:59
  a really good question. But I'll tell you if I wasn't
• 16:01
  designed to answer that question, but it would have
• 16:03
  been, you know, if we went into severe larynx, we could have
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  answered that question. But around that time, you know,
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  we did some marker analysis in spiritual Renza significant
• 16:12
  domain Nikki tool. But we're looking at a kind of a
• 16:13
  modest market size deal about 180 million or something.
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  You're not in substantial, but you know, it's still a
• 16:20
  significant underneath. But I think we're, you know, the
• 16:23
  stars aligned in one sense is that as these cancer
• 16:26
  immunotherapies were coming through and these are CAR T cell
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  therapies, bispecific antibodies, more recently
• 16:32
  fantasy drugs, insofar as what they do is one arm locks onto
• 16:39
  your cancer cell, you know, I must say multiple myeloma cell,
• 16:42
  we say, we say in this regard. And the other arm of an antibody
• 16:45
  or a CAR T locks onto a T cell. And essentially what it's doing
• 16:48
  is kind of bringing the T cell close to the cancer cell with T
• 16:51
  cells like, huh, you shouldn't be here.
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  And that the T cell kills the cancer cell.
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  It's kind of like a it's kind of a wonderfully simple, you know,
• 16:58
  image, but it works terrific well.
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  And when we looked at that, I mean, if you're diagnosed,
• 17:04
  unfortunately here it did to be diagnosed and muscle myeloma,
• 17:07
  you go through various treatments, but you do know what
• 17:10
  the DOS is. OK, I'm going to give you, you
• 17:12
  know, a car T cell on Monday. Yeah.
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  So you know, you know, when you guess when you're going to
• 17:18
  guess, you know, this, you know, as AT7 get you treatment.
• 17:21
  So, you know, the penny dropped to us is like, hang on, like
• 17:24
  we've got data where we're preventing an adventurous boss,
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  you know, so if we give our drug before the Monday that they're
• 17:30
  going to get this drug, you know, keeping the immune system
• 17:33
  calm and then they get their drug, it should not affect the
• 17:36
  efficacy of the drug. But maybe we blocked that.
• 17:38
  Cyclins don't let's say I'm releasing them.
• 17:41
  And we, you know, took our data. We talked to again in business
• 17:45
  value. We talked to about a pharma
• 17:46
  companies, biotech companies, what we're doing.
• 17:48
  And as I said, J&J were kind of one of the earliest doctors of
• 17:51
  like I see you to do, you know, because if we can prevent, you
• 17:55
  know, Cos from happening you, as I mentioned earlier on, their
• 17:59
  market grows because it gets to more patients more rapidly.
• 18:02
  Because the challenge with car T is that patients, you know, come
• 18:05
  into hospital, they get the car T cell treatment and they all
• 18:09
  sit around for two or three weeks in case the see the site,
• 18:11
  the CRS or the site events store on the box.
• 18:14
  So now if you give me a profile activity, he can send them home
• 18:16
  and then the beds are free. The big command.
• 18:19
  So there's a nice, I was like conveyor because obviously, you
• 18:21
  know, you don't want you convertible to patients, but I
• 18:24
  mean, if you're unfortunate to be diagnosed, you know that
• 18:27
  they're Scenicians are. And I would say where we also
• 18:30
  got really rapid ear traction was talking to clinicians.
• 18:35
  You know, they're the people who see the patients day-to-day.
• 18:38
  I mean, what is worthy about the pharma companies to sell their
• 18:40
  drawings now that they're very well connected with all these
• 18:43
  clinicians? But they see, huh?
• 18:45
  You like a lot of my time, you know.
• 18:47
  Wait, that's hands in time is is cost this?
• 18:49
  Yeah, it says that the patients aren't burdened as much.
• 18:52
  You know, the docs, the nurses aren't.
• 18:54
  But the health care system is important because the patients
• 18:57
  kind of come in, they get their cancer immune or 30 treatment
• 19:00
  and they don't. Yeah.
• 19:01
  So they they see the logic. So they're.
• 19:04
  Also better for the patient as well.
• 19:06
  Absolutely. It's kind of when you talk to
• 19:08
  people, we've talked to people who have sat down stolen to say
• 19:10
  it's just off it. You know, you hear things about
• 19:12
  like, oh, it's kind of flu like symptoms that sometimes if it
• 19:15
  progresses, yeah, you know, it's you're flying back, you know,
• 19:18
  there's you know, and again, this kind of worry is that keeps
• 19:21
  going. Let's talk about the runaway
• 19:22
  train that, you know, we're trying to kind of stop it in, in
• 19:25
  its tracks, you know, so to speak.
• 19:26
  So there's multiple advantages of that.
• 19:28
  That's why we're so excited now, which can get the try, get the
• 19:31
  go get our drug in patients and say we, we change A to given us
• 19:35
  their drug to kiss them out free of charge, uh, to do that.
• 19:38
  And again, back to business developments, you know where
• 19:41
  we've told all the farm covers. This is what we're doing.
• 19:43
  Yeah, we should have interim date in the summer and the, you
• 19:47
  know, it's kind of that lining up.
• 19:49
  You know, it's kind of great. You can't wait to see the data
• 19:51
  because that triggers a lot of internal discussions.
• 19:54
  You know, again, I'm kind of experienced enough to narrow
• 19:56
  hide these deals get done on industry and allows unbeliever
• 20:00
  champion internally who goes to another champion.
• 20:02
  He always to a community either and then the community kind of
• 20:04
  real approves scientifically, you know, the clinical
• 20:07
  attributes, the commercial benefits, etcetera and then
• 20:11
  release a budget, you know to do these kind of DA.
• 20:13
  So this takes profit. Bush, what's essential, you
• 20:17
  know, to get that scale of dobro effects moving is data and
• 20:20
  clinical data creation data. And that's where we're being so
• 20:23
  much. So we're building up to that
• 20:24
  kind of exciting period of your lots of talks and lots of
• 20:27
  discussions that you know, say when the data comes out.
• 20:30
  So yeah, we kind of say this, I mean we lined everything up, you
• 20:33
  know, the patients kind of selection, the clinical trials
• 20:35
  sites and the conditions that, you know, we're we're quite
• 20:38
  optimistic the data were positive.
• 20:40
  Yeah. And if it is that we, you know,
• 20:42
  as I say, get the comparative attention we're only get
• 20:44
  everybody. Let me approve it.
• 20:45
  Yeah. And the the other interesting
• 20:47
  part of this is it's, it's AUK only trial as well, right?
• 20:50
  Yeah. That was that was, you know, we
• 20:51
  again, you can we always kind of give the example that, you know,
• 20:55
  when you're when you're on just about a dose a patient.
• 20:59
  Yeah, there's about 8 or 990% of the workers before that, you
• 21:02
  know, there's a lot of kind of lighting up.
• 21:03
  And we were fortunate in our early discussions to talk to
• 21:07
  Doctor Emma Searle. She left the Christie in
• 21:09
  Manchester. And, you know, there are people
• 21:12
  that I mentioned are Amazon or farmers who just they get it,
• 21:15
  you know, from from the first conversation like, yeah, you
• 21:18
  already get it. And Emma's been a terrific
• 21:20
  supporter of what we're doing again for them.
• 21:24
  There's been a big of a bit of building, I guess that the the
• 21:29
  pathway to get us to where we are right now.
• 21:31
  Yeah, but it's a very tight myeloma Muslim Iloma network in
• 21:35
  the UK. So Emma reaches out to her
• 21:37
  friends or collaborators in the industry or, sorry, in the
• 21:41
  academic surplus and, you know, one of which is collaboration
• 21:44
  Rakesh Papat, who's here in the, like, Imperial College Hospitals
• 21:48
  in London. And that's going to Rakash over
• 21:51
  to any Rakash is I'm on board. And then you you talk to once at
• 21:55
  least they're all like, I see what you're doing.
• 21:57
  You know, they see patients regularly.
• 21:58
  And yeah. So from a company like prove a,
• 22:02
  you know, a public company, we're very conscious of, you
• 22:05
  know, costs and expenses. Yeah.
• 22:07
  And it just made perfect sense to keep the UK.
• 22:09
  You're dealing with one Regulatory agency, you know, the
• 22:12
  MHRA you're you're dealing, you know, to say you have a nice
• 22:15
  tight network as a mentor to or your CRO, the clinical research
• 22:19
  organization expedient a prior is is act who are nonprofits who
• 22:23
  are hematology specialists and they've got a terrific UK
• 22:27
  network of these conditions. Yeah.
• 22:28
  So there are a lot of pieces that it's not quite like a
• 22:31
  jigsaw and it's not like we're we're we're hammering the jigsaw
• 22:33
  piece and drinks. A lot of them is like, you know,
• 22:36
  true. Again, hardworking organization
• 22:38
  are fiddy into place quite nicely.
• 22:40
  So it made sense and as they were only for this you know
• 22:43
  you're about to be you know a phase two trial and we will have
• 22:48
  prohibitions and then you know we're looking at the clever
• 22:51
  trial sites. We've got 4 confirmed 5 almost
• 22:54
  maybe 6 and it's just to get the patients in, get them dosed.
• 22:57
  I think importantly from our can your trial, we are not looking
• 23:01
  at the long term, you know, cancer immunotherapy effects.
• 23:05
  Where does that be that early Indian response?
• 23:08
  Do these patients develop CRS or not?
• 23:11
  And if they do develop CRS, you know, wash is there the grade
• 23:15
  the CRS. So we're kind of measuring and
• 23:17
  that's all in the first week to through you know, so where does
• 23:20
  that early phase the patients will remain on the Castle mini
• 23:23
  therapy? Yeah, they're only on our drug
• 23:25
  for it maybe two weeks or so, just that period of time to get
• 23:28
  the new system calm. So we would have data very
• 23:30
  rocket lease and open labor trial.
• 23:32
  So as they patients come in, you know, we're sending them, you
• 23:35
  know, every day we're doing the analysis living at their immune
• 23:38
  system to via their site, their response.
• 23:40
  So for each individual patients, we'd have dated quite rapid.
• 23:42
  So the more sites the merrier so to speak, you know is in that
• 23:46
  we'll have a lot of data. Yeah, very quickly.
• 23:49
  And as I say, we we've teamed it up quite well where again, the
• 23:53
  the conversations we've had with their various pharma companies,
• 23:56
  like they knew what's coming and they know that this is the
• 23:58
  trigger of ASH. If it's positive, you know, that
• 24:01
  that could impacts their pipeline, that could impact, you
• 24:04
  know, their bottom line in, in when it comes to kind of drug
• 24:07
  rate ease. So then we're looking to find a
• 24:09
  partner, you know, with them as well.
• 24:11
  Yeah, All right. We'll say there's a second
• 24:12
  stream that we're looking at in that we compare directly with
• 24:16
  the pharma company who have the drugs on the market.
• 24:18
  But we're also talking to a host of it's called supportive care
• 24:22
  companies. These are cancer supportive care
• 24:23
  companies who are they're not marketing the direct anti tumor
• 24:28
  drugs, but it's more on your drugs that are supporting you.
• 24:31
  Hansa patients some weeks, like the cast patients say getting
• 24:34
  chemotherapy, get anemia. So you know he's going to feel
• 24:36
  anti immediate drugs. So they're you know, and then
• 24:38
  you've companies that say in patients, you know, as I say,
• 24:42
  get various different kinds of treatments.
• 24:44
  You know, they need to you know, things like, you know, somebody
• 24:47
  who have modal source, for example.
• 24:49
  So you need, you know, supportive care.
• 24:50
  So you're talking to them as well.
• 24:51
  So we're kind of as a not quite hedging, we're just kind of
• 24:54
  keeping all of our options off. Yeah.
• 24:56
  I think it's interesting when you look at like partnering,
• 24:58
  versing versus building internally, Yeah, like how do
• 25:03
  you weigh that up? Yeah.
• 25:04
  I mean, and again, it's kind of funny from a genetic standpoint
• 25:07
  or a big company where we have the resources.
• 25:10
  Yeah, we have, yeah. What was called the FIBCO,
• 25:12
  you're a fully integrated biotech company where you did
• 25:14
  discovery, you know, a drug discovery, target discovery all
• 25:18
  the way through to commercialization, you know,
• 25:20
  manufacturing and regulatory chemical use ahead everything.
• 25:23
  Or as a small company, you know, we partner with a lot of you
• 25:28
  know, say contract research groups who do that work for, you
• 25:30
  know, that kind of again, we don't we we find out more cost
• 25:33
  effective, but we do know that go E was bigger K to the trials,
• 25:38
  you know, these kind of larger phase twos or face trees
• 25:40
  ultimately getting on the market.
• 25:42
  This is over may a multiple 10th the size right trial size of a
• 25:45
  multiple countries. You know, the budgets increase
• 25:48
  exponential. Yeah.
• 25:49
  And that's where pharma can make #1 they have the deeper pockets,
• 25:53
  but then number 2, they have that expertise.
• 25:55
  So we're we some cast ourselves. You approved like we're the
• 25:57
  innovators, you know, we're kind of carrying the way or carrying
• 26:00
  the brush, you know, and then, you know, again, with the data,
• 26:04
  you know, in hands, they'll be expecting the summer.
• 26:06
  It's essentially serving it up. We've de risked this problem of
• 26:10
  view and now it's up to you to take a forward.
• 26:12
  That's where the kind of deal work comes in doing a
• 26:14
  transaction. You know, we get asked a lot
• 26:16
  what you know, is there a license or is there an
• 26:18
  acquisition or is it just a product acquisition?
• 26:20
  Again, all auctions are open and on the table.
• 26:23
  So it depends. Some companies, you know, larger
• 26:25
  companies, they may want to take the the job in wrong with
• 26:28
  themselves, Maybe some of the meat size or like can we
• 26:30
  collaborate together and get this book it forward and it's
• 26:33
  all for resources. You know, I was going to find or
• 26:35
  kind of explain that resources is not just cash, it's not just
• 26:39
  money. It's if you look at any farmer
• 26:42
  buy to everybody, everyone was incredibly busy.
• 26:44
  So it's like, you know, how are you going to get somebody down
• 26:47
  to us to pick up another project?
• 26:48
  You know, there's there's a way off.
• 26:50
  You know that that it always happens, but so we have the
• 26:53
  capabilities to kind of move forward ourselves.
• 26:55
  Yeah, again, once it's kind of funded by final company and
• 26:58
  we've had those discussions see how they kind of they're Molly
• 27:01
  over what's best suit at the end of star.
• 27:02
  Yeah, you know, some of them are more the territorial insofar as,
• 27:08
  you know, they'd like to run the trial their way.
• 27:11
  Yeah, so they'd like to do it and bring it in high.
• 27:12
  So that's perfectly fine, but I say some others, maybe you'll be
• 27:16
  like, we don't have the time to space.
• 27:17
  Can you help us, you know, but then then direct us and that's
• 27:20
  fine too, you know, So it's a, it's a, it's a great option.
• 27:22
  But as I said, we were we're, you know, as a, you're a small
• 27:25
  kind of public company. We feel that's a great way to
• 27:28
  use our, you know, our use of funds, give them the money that
• 27:31
  we've raised in another market. I think we drive value true
• 27:34
  dash, significant collaboration, you know, significant license
• 27:39
  agreement or or deed acquisition, you know of the
• 27:41
  program, you know, when we had that data and act and I think
• 27:44
  we're very excited to see that. Sure.
• 27:46
  I will say that the drug that we're using and and toss it to
• 27:50
  glisten up. There is a 72% of patients
• 27:52
  develop CRS and you know that there's been works to try and
• 27:56
  figure out who will and who wants and it's it's quite an in
• 27:58
  the in the exact size. But yeah, so you're essentially
• 28:02
  living at 2 pairs of patients like you over we developed CRS
• 28:06
  yeah, from the historic controls.
• 28:08
  So it'll be interesting to see like you know, I was going to
• 28:10
  say our first three patients or 6 or 9 or 12 patients.
• 28:13
  Yeah. Is it still 2/3 as a 1/3?
• 28:15
  Is it 0 either? Is it a point you know, so we'd
• 28:17
  have an early sense, you know, non statistical of what
• 28:20
  directions taken and that ultimately would do it 30 be on
• 28:23
  board. We'd have a good sense of what
• 28:25
  that CRS rate is. We are drove on boards say
• 28:29
  preventing CRS having in first place and if or if this try
• 28:32
  works and this is me again very exciting works with you know
• 28:36
  taclistamab, then we believe it'll work with other cancer.
• 28:41
  The authorities, although T saying gave us like the car T's
• 28:43
  because they say we're we're not stopping a runaway train.
• 28:47
  We're stopping a train for starting the first.
• 28:49
  But yeah, you know, so it's kind of a nice kind of like keeping
• 28:51
  that it's kind of immune kind of inflammatory path Rd. on the
• 28:54
  patrol before triggers out of patrol.
• 28:56
  So yeah, we're we're kind of excited to see that.
• 28:58
  So super excited it is. We've worked really hard.
• 29:00
  You got to line this up. And as I say, we can see the
• 29:02
  vision, you know, we can see the, you know, as I say, the
• 29:06
  trial execution and we'll be waiting with basic breath, you
• 29:09
  know, like at each and as I said, the beauty of this with
• 29:11
  each individual patient. Yeah, we we have early access to
• 29:15
  data, so we get a good sense of the read.
• 29:16
  So exciting time to the company, but I was.
• 29:18
  Sure. I mean, I've, I was just
• 29:20
  thinking about this. Then I've done, I counted this
• 29:22
  morning, actually, I've done 147 podcasts with different CEOs and
• 29:27
  VCs and it's and it's you can I can tell like the passion from
• 29:33
  someone and the excitement when when something's going really
• 29:35
  well. Yeah.
• 29:36
  So I can't wait to see it. I'm going really well.
• 29:38
  Again, it's not by asset. So they say.
• 29:40
  I always give prayer back to the team.
• 29:42
  We're working incredibly hard, you know, every day.
• 29:44
  I mean, as as a CEO, it's interesting because you know,
• 29:46
  there's this, there's decisions to make.
• 29:48
  You know what you, you take the data, you take the information.
• 29:51
  You know, there are people who are way more knowledge alike
• 29:54
  than I in different areas of the business.
• 29:56
  So like lots of kind, good discussions, but you know, it's
• 29:59
  just a terrific team that yeah, we, we, we, we agreement or
• 30:04
  consensus, you know, on what to do.
• 30:06
  And I think we use back our data as backed by kind of experience
• 30:10
  and we can read the forward. Sorry, I was just as with
• 30:12
  everything, you know, there's nothing linear here as I was
• 30:15
  speed bumps and twists and turns.
• 30:16
  But you know that that's the way of a business.
• 30:19
  I mean, that's the way it's this industry.
• 30:20
  You know, if it were, if it was a straight line, everyone would
• 30:23
  do it. But everyone, yeah, it's not,
• 30:26
  it's not easy as complicated, but ultimately the, you know,
• 30:29
  the benefits are kind of what what's exciting.
• 30:31
  No, it's amazing, really is. And that brings us to our final
• 30:34
  question, which is a question as every guest that comes on the
• 30:37
  podcast who got dinner when he scientists or innovates, past or
• 30:42
  present, who? Who would it be and why?
• 30:44
  That is such a tough question because, you know, one of my, I
• 30:49
  won't say hobbies, but I did as a guy.
• 30:51
  Yeah. Growing up, I read a lot of your
• 30:53
  biographies, your science biographies.
• 30:55
  I just kind of find fascinating that the, you know, how they
• 30:58
  kind of came about their their discoveries.
• 31:00
  And yeah. And again, there's a lot of
• 31:02
  visitors and turns and ups and downs and.
• 31:03
  Yeah. And you know the what?
• 31:05
  He kind of struck me again. It kind of came up again
• 31:08
  recently, you know, was the discovery of DNA.
• 31:11
  And I've been to Cambridge. I've been to the Edith poem.
• 31:12
  But there's a clock into all, you know, Watson and Crick.
• 31:15
  And, you know, you've read the, you know, the various books, you
• 31:18
  know, The Dark Helix and, you know, Francis Crick.
• 31:21
  You know, you had a fantastic career even after discovering
• 31:23
  Nash. It's fantastic.
• 31:25
  For one of the barbs that read was Rosalind Franklin, the Dark
• 31:28
  Lady of DNA. And it's a bit of controversy
• 31:31
  that, you know, the the famous image of the with the extra
• 31:34
  crystal ography image of the the the double Helix that Watson
• 31:40
  Crick interpreted. It was Rosalind Franklin had
• 31:42
  actually, you know, that was her work and bit of confidence in
• 31:45
  time that it was, you know, stolen, you know, her, her her
• 31:48
  boss at the time walk. He's going to handle the handle
• 31:51
  her over. And it was one of those things
• 31:53
  where she didn't get the dread now, unfortunately, probably
• 31:55
  true, the nature of her work. She died of, you know, cancer
• 31:58
  quite young and you know, so didn't get that got a Nobel
• 32:02
  Prize because you don't get a posthumously, you know, you're
• 32:05
  going to need to be like. So I'd love to know that story,
• 32:09
  you know, because there's a lot of kind of controversy.
• 32:10
  But again, I'm kind of an old kind of women scientists and how
• 32:14
  they pioneer, you know, some has this again, recognizing pushing
• 32:18
  kind of rocks off, though, you know, I think some of the men
• 32:20
  kind of had a far too easy, far too easy.
• 32:23
  But that's the one. I'd love to sit down and just
• 32:25
  kind of get the back story to how it all does because she
• 32:28
  seems like a formidable woman, but you know, sadly taken too
• 32:31
  early. But again, I think that's last
• 32:33
  piece and positive puzzle for, you know, the the kind of double
• 32:36
  Helix in here and on robbing that.
• 32:37
  And again, as it was a long time ago, different times.
• 32:40
  As I say, it's just and I've been to the the pub, you know,
• 32:43
  more than one of gays and that clock is kind of there as I it
• 32:45
  just seems like it not solely, but I mean the you know, the
• 32:48
  controversy about maybe there should be 1/3 name there.
• 32:50
  Yeah, yeah, I know. It's a easy.
• 32:52
  Request that's a great answer and look, thank you so much for
• 32:54
  quit on Jeremy. So we just like, yeah.
• 32:56
  Appreciate it and. Please everyone like and
• 32:58
  subscribe to the Biohub.