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BPS 366: Using Filmmaking for Change in the World with Jon Fitzgerald · Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast

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You are listening to the IFAH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting
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podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot com. Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast,
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Episode number three sixty six. Progress is impossible without change, and those
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who cannot change their minds cannot change anything. George Bernard Shaw broadcasting from a
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dark, windowless room in Hollywood when we really should be working on that next
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draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business of
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screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof. And here's your host,
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Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast.
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I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari. Now, today's show is
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Now, Guys, today on the show, we have John Fitzgerald.
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Now. John is a very interesting filmmaker because not only is he an award
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winning filmmaker, he's also the co founder of the Slam Dance Film Festival and
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the author of the book Filmmaking for Change. Now. This episode was recorded
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prior to COVID and prior to the protest movement and Black Lives Matter and everything
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that's going on in the world. But man, when I went back to
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listen to it to get it ready for this episode, I could not believe
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how timely this episode is. So we talk about how to make social change
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with your filmmaking, and I think it's more important than ever before that you
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make a change in the world with your art, and this episode and this
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conversation will help you get on that path. So, without any further ado,
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please enjoy my conversation with John Fitzgerald. I like to welcome the show
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John Fitzgerald, Man, thank you so much for being on the show.
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My friend. Absolutely happy to be here. Thank you man. And like
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I'll be saying off air, your book makes a cameo in my film On
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the Corner of Ego and Desire. When we're in the bookstore, we pan
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across it. It's the first book that's in and it's not a quick pan
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there's it's a moment you read the title. So I wanted to give you
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a shout out for the book. I love that. I love that.
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So before we get started with the reason It's here movie, Yeah, exactly,
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now, real quick, before we get started, how did you get
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into the business. I have a film degree from UCSB and broke into the
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training program at William Morris and back then it was actually Triad, but it
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was it was acquired, and did the development thing a while, socking away
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my per diem working on a script that I'd started in film school and eventually
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raised the funds to shoot it, and like everyone else, really wanted to
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premiere it at Sundance, but it wasn't to be, fortunately for me.
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I had met a couple other filmmakers at the IFFM in New York that year
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and they didn't get in either, and so we all banded together and started
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slam Dance. So I kind of by accident, became a festival director.
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We all did it together the first year as co founders, and then I
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became the director for year two and three and brought in Peter Baxter was one
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of the producers of a film in the first year. He came on as
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a Crave director, and then I moved on to take over as AFI Fest
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director, and then Peter took over slam Dance. So that's the short version
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of how I got into this indie film space. And Dan has been on
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the show. Dan Marvish has been on the show multiple times, and he
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also makes a cameo himself, true filmmaker. Oh man, he hustles man
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like there's no tomorrow, and he actually makes a cameo in the movie.
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And his book makes a cameo in the movie as well. So I tried
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to bring as many people as I could. He's great and he you know,
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I have to give him a lot of kudos. He's the one that
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you know, wrote the first press release that was in Variety, and he
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was he was a big help and he's a great guy. Now, you
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wrote a book called Filmmaking for Change. Now I wanted to ask you what
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the book is about and why did you write it. Sure, well,
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having done film festivals for a number of years again, you know, as
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a festival director essentially curating movies, I found myself on a panel with Michael
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Weasy and we're walking back to the hotel and I said, hey, I've
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become more interested in what I call social impact movies and I'm wondering, you
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know, why you guys don't have a book on this subject. What would
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it take to make that happen? And he said, well, send me
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an outline in the first chapter and you know, if it makes sense,
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we'll do it. So that's kind of where it started. And it's true
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I had become much more interested in documentary and even narrative that you know,
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we're movies with some social relevance. And so I did that book and really
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was thinking along the lines with with with some of their other books, that
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this could be something that was taught in film schools to really help filmmakers learn
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how to take ideas and make documentary, but not just talking heads documentary,
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but how do you how do you take a core of an idea and and
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sort of break it down into a narrative structure. And I used some other
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Michael Weasy books, the Hero's Journey for example, Joseph Campbell's Heroes Journey in
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the Twelve Stages. I'm sure you're familiar with that, And so that was
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kind of the anchor for the book. And how to have you know,
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development and production and then distribution, and how you could take all these pieces
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and think of these movie these as more narrative stories. And then I made
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a handful of documentaries along the way that I could kind of reference in the
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book as examples. Now, documentaries are an easy, an easy play for
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social impact. They're kind of, you know, if done correctly, they're
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kind of built to do that. Where I find it a little bit more
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complicated is in the narrative space. Do you have any tips or suggestions and
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also examples of narrative films that have really hit us, has created social impact
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besides coming to America. Of course. Well it's funny you say that because
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you know, when I was writing the book, obviously I had to do
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a lot of research to give it some context. And what you really learn
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when you kind of take a deeper dive is that a lot of movies over
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the years have been social impact movies. You're just not labeled that way.
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And you think you even think about you know, Schindler's List of you know,
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you think of Green Book. Yeah right. I mean, if you
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look at the Oscars the last few years, it's spotlight. You think of
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a lot of big narratives that actually have something to say, And so I
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think it's it's not something that audiences are necessarily looking out for consciously, but
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I think because there's so much wackiness going on in the world, I think
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that one of the reasons why we're seeing a kind of a spike in documentary
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and even social impact narrative is that people are more interested in learning now about
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the world around them and different cultures and getting to the crux of some of
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these big issues. Now, how do you dance though the line between preaching
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and entertaining, because if you start preaching, people tune off. Even in
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documentaries to a certain extent, I'm a huge fan of documentary, and you
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know, the whole plant based food movement was started with documentary basically with four
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Knives. Yeah, I'm sorry, Work's over Knives is in my book as
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a case study. Yeah, fork overen knives, food matters, all those
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kind of what the health and conspiracy and all these other ones. So they're
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very powerful. And even back in the day with Roger and me, uh
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with with Michael Moore and his social impacts with his documentaries. Yeah, but
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how do you dance the line between preaching and entertaining. I honestly think it's
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it's it's a combination of different factors that don't necessarily apply into each project.
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I think each kind of has their own, their own anchor. Obviously,
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with More you've got you've got a charismatic figure who you you kind of want
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to watch because he's so crazy. We'll be right back after a word from
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our sponsor and now back to the show. But there, there's there's other
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there's other documentaries where the filmmaking style is really interesting. You know, you
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think about life itself. Right, the documentary made a few years ago and
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they used animation and this this this you know, this guy had had grown
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up with with you know, a disorder essentially and and connected it back to
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Disney movies and and so I think it's really a question of what your style
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and your structure is and and if you can somehow weave in a narrative ooh,
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I mean there there is a reason why, you know, there's a
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beginning, a middle, and an end to most of the bigger, more
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popular stories, whether it's whether it's a book or a movie. So so
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I think that's the key, and I think, you know, filmmakers are
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getting it. And and that's why if you look back, and to some
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extent we could thank Netflix, they've they've really you know, busted open the
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doors for documentary in the last few years, I think, with such a
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deep library and of course HBO, so they're out there and there's a reason
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why people are paying attention now. And I think it's because these stories are
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told in such an interesting way. The one thing I found interesting about your
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book and what you're trying to say with it is that it does really fall
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into the concept that I've kind of been preaching about profusely over the last six
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months or longer. Is this whole concept of being a film entrepreneur being an
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entrepreneurial filmmaker and finding a niche and then feeding that niche, providing service to
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that niche. Impact social impact movies are literally that. I mean, unless
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it's a very broad like you know, racism or the Holocaust or even that,
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those are still niches of the larger society. They're kind of pre built
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for that. Do you have any tips on how because I know, when
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you're making a social impact film, money might not be a specific goal,
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but if you're raising money for a cause, for a foundation, then generating
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revenue is as important as if it was going into your own pocket, even
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more so then at that point. So still revenue generation is still extremely important
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for filmmakers, even doing social impact movies. So do you have any recommendations
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in regards to what you've seen over the years. Yeah, it's a great
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point, and I love the idea of your book, By the way,
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and I've consulted for a number of years helping filmmakers kind of figure out their
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marketing and distribution strategy. And one of the things that I've been saying a
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lot in the last few years is you really have to think of your movie
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as a brand, and you have to think about it as a product and
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not just find a distributor, stick it on that shelf and you see how
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many people might find it. You do have to do all the things that
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I'm sure you cover in your book in terms of social impact. What's interesting
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is you need to have a call to action. And when I talked to
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filmmakers about this, it kind of all starts with the goal and then you
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back into the process from there, and each film kind of has its own
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goal, right because a film about homelessness is not necessarily going to have the
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same goal as a film about the environment. You look at a movie like
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Racing Extinction. You know, they created an amazing campaign and I don't know
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if you had a chance to check it out, but the new book,
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the second edition, has a whole new section which is called activation to your
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point, which is, you know, how can you take this idea that
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was built with a mission in mind and put it in motion? And I
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think what Racing Extinction did which was brilliant, is that they took this concept
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of climate change and you know, they put different challenges in there. We
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call to actions. Did you know that animal agricultures responsible for fourteen zero point
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five percent of global emissions, I mean, and then they talk about the
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fisheries. Did you know that ninety percent of the fisheries are over fished.
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So they talk about these issues and then they follow up with questions and solutions
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and what you can do as a person to make your contribution. And I
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think part of the problem is that people get overwhelmed with the idea that oh
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my god, there's so many problems. How can little o me make a
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difference, you know, And I think it does have to start with us,
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and we have to just know that every little bit counts. Yeah,
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there's I'm thinking of a movie camps like Boys Don't Cry, which obviously touched
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upon at the time. Really you know that, you know, LGBQ rights,
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which was something that was not even discussed when that movie came out.
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Really it was kind of like one of those films, and it could have
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been at the end like hey, if you know, somebody put on go
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to this website, sign up and get help or whatever that might be,
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or you know, get assistance or whatever. There is there's always an ability,
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and I think the filmmaker just really needs to be very clear about what
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their endgame is. I've even seen big movies who that touch like I mean
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obviously Schindler's List, you know, with the social or social project that that
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he that Spielberg created, which was, you know, to record every Holocaust
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survivor in an art chive, you know, and he used Shindler's List as
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a catalyst for that as an educational tool. I think that you're right that
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filmmakers really need to be very clear about what their endgame is. Uh.
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And also I was going to ask you how can filmmakers, depending on the
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social impact they're trying to make and the niche that they're trying to do,
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how could they or should they team up with organizations in that niche to get
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the word out in ways that you can't. And also as a basically free
16:00
marketing, because if you're making a film about the environment, let's say,
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or specific something even more niche than that, and there's an organization about that,
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they have on thousands and tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of people
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on an email list, and they can market your film for free. Essentially.
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Do you agree with that? Absolutely? You just hit it right on
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the head. I mean, with virtually all of these what I call cause
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cinema movies. You know, these are projects that have not for profits.
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Depending on the category, whether it's the oceans, or homelessness or education,
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veterans, you name it, all of them have organizations to support this effort.
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And it is in a way almost a sponsorship or a partnership agreement that
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is developed between filmmaking team and and you know company. Really it's going to
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them and saying, look, I've got this content and it supports you your
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mission. How can we help each other? How can you get our message
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out to your audience base. Maybe it's giving you some content for your website
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depending on what their forum is. But it really does come down to understanding
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after you get past, you know, underneath the layer of the goal,
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it's what your what's your distribution plan? Are you? Are you interested in
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playing on Netflix or HBO? And what if they don't want you? You
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know, are you are you going to play in schools? Are you going
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to play in high schools? Are you going to play in colleges? What
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is your what is your action campaign that supports the screening? Are you going
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to have bumper stickers? Are you going to have T shirts? What is
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your call to action? And I think once you back into what your distribution
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model is. I did a movie a few years ago called The Milky Way,
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and it's about breastfeeding in America, nice and kind of restoring the nursing
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phenomena in it. It will blow your mind just how bad America is at
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this. This really kids, I trust me, you know I did so.
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I was psychotic than my kids were in my wife's belly. I was
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just like, I did so much research. I watched so many documentaries.
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It was like, maybe you're breastfeeding and she's like, I know, and
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don't tell me what to do. What's crazy, though, is that a
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lot of people just assume that, you know, for me, it's about
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the nutrition factor or whatever, but they don't. They don't realize it's the
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skin to skin and anyway I know about I know more about that now than
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my wife did when she was breast But the point is is that these filmmakers
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weren't making it to make money. They yes, they were on Netflix,
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yes they got the exposure, but it was more about how do we do
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a screening campaign that will give mothers an opportunity to see this movie and who
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are the right partners to do that so with that particular film, speaking of
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Tug, Unfortunately, we did a campaign with Tug, and frankly, these
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filmmakers did not set the bar super high in terms of how many people had
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to see the movie to trigger to the screening. They were thinking, look,
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if they're fifteen to twenty moms in that theater, we're good that we
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help, we're in So they didn't do it for money, and it's it's
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a wonderful thing to see when you see the emails plotting into babies. They're
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both they're both essentially nurses. To see the impact they're having, and that
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is a perfect example of a social impact film that we created. With the
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beginning, middle, and end. It has a story, there's the good
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guys and the bad guys. There's some animation, and it's an interesting it's
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an interesting story, but it does make a difference. And they knew that
19:45
it wasn't about how much money they were going to make. It was about
19:47
connecting to these groups. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
19:56
and now back to the show and having their Facebook and their Instagram and
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all these social media platforms and websites in that nursing category. That could do
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outreach for them because because audiences want to know about this subject. So let's
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since you've touched upon it, I want to talk a little bit about distribution,
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and that is it's a dirty word, uh in many ways and has
20:26
become a dirty we at the end of the day, it's always wow,
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it's it's and people think it's, oh no, everything's so much you know,
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easier, or it's more controlled. They're rules. There's absolutely no rules.
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It's worse than ever. And I've literally I actually had conversations uh today
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actually with filmmakers who are going through this whole Tug situation. If if and
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if anyone listening has not listened to episode three seventy three, where I,
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you know, break the story in regards to what happened with TUG and what
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TUG was and everything, but that that there was documentaries who had educational series
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and educational content that was licensed by TUG, and now they're they're going to
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lose eight to ten grand and they're like, that's you know, plus all
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the all the exposure for the cause and everything. It's brutal out there.
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So it's brutal out there for filmmakers as a general statement. But it's even
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I think it's even a little bit more heartbreaking when you're when you're doing this
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for almost a nonprofit and there are nonprofit filmmakers out there that just want the
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cause to get out there, and they still get screwed and in the in
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the films get screwed. I mean, you're you're in that, You're in
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this space. You're definitely in the space of distribution as well. So I'd
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love to hear your thoughts and ideas about what can be done, what you
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look out for. Uh. And we touched a little bit about the entrepreneurial
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filmmaking model, which I do believe is the future or a hybrid version of
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that. But what's your what's your take on it? Well, I I
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I think I tend to try and look at things like a little bit more
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of the silver lining side. I do think that it is it is really
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disturbing when you hear about to Stripper and Tug and these these these companies that
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were doing so well for filmmakers that you know, shut down. I will
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also say though, that that by having so many new streaming channels and frankly
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channels that that aren't necessarily curating there isn't as difficult of a barrier as there
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as there was some time ago. I mean, clearly, if you don't
22:40
have a relationship with iTunes, you don't have a relationship with Netflix or HBO,
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it's going to be hard for you to get get traction there. So
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I do think it's a challenge. I think to your earlier point, I
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do think filmmakers have to be entrepreneurial now now more than they used to be.
22:55
It wasn't just I'm a visionary and I'm going to create an idea and
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then give it to a al's agent who's going to rip me off and try
23:00
and sell it. You have to be able to get creative on your own.
23:04
But I do think there are a lot of opportunities out there. You
23:07
still have to do your homework, You have to know who the right players
23:11
are, and you still, I believe you know, some of these content
23:17
careers are creating channels for themselves, right. Roku has over two thousand channels
23:22
now, right, and there's going to be some consolidation, of course,
23:25
But there's a lot of opportunity out there. You just got to do your
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homework. Yeah, I mean, I even have my own streaming service,
23:30
you know, so that's dedicated to filmmakers. So I mean a lot of
23:34
people have streaming services, and you know, I think the future is curation.
23:38
I mean, you can't like, I agree, I just I can't
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compete with Netflix. Not many people can. Amazon can't compete with Netflix,
23:48
so let alone me. So there, the broad spectrum channels I think will
23:52
start to just die off because they won't be able to be sustained. Their
23:56
funding will finally crap out and they'll and they'll close. And I've seen that
24:00
already happening. But I feel that the niche, the niche or curated channels
24:07
are going to be able to survive because people will want you know, if
24:10
you're into documentaries, curiosity stream is a pretty good deal. I just I
24:15
just signed up for twelve bucks for the year. I'm like, okay,
24:18
it was a quick like end of the year of a Black Friday sale.
24:22
I was like, yeah, sure, I might, yea, why not?
24:25
You know, so that makes sense, And I think you're right.
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There's just so much more homework that filmaking. There's a lot out there.
24:33
There's a lot out there, and I do agree there's gonna be some consolidation
24:37
for sure that there won't be two thousand channels in five years. But the
24:41
point is, do your homework and see which of these channels have your niche,
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you know. And I do think that there is something to be said
24:52
for curation, especially if you're focusing on a specific category. I think,
24:56
you know, throwing as many ideas against the wall and just hoping a channel
25:00
that has seventeen genres is going to promote your title, that's that's a bit
25:07
more of a challenge. But I do think especially for docs and some very
25:11
specific like sci fi very hot, right, So I think if you if
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you, if you're in a certain category and you do your homework and you
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can find a home, you have a chance to succeed there. And if
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and and I still think having a website and having fans and creating community as
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you know, I mean, those are those are the audiences that would come
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and see your next movie. So I still think you don't want to just
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give it up and wait for the checks to roll in. You gotta you
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gotta, you gotta keep hustling. Yeah, when you're preaching to the choir
25:44
on that one. But but I see it too that the distributors you know
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when I was at AFM this year, Uh, they're they're scared. They
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don't know what to do. I mean, all their golden calves are gone,
25:55
so they I asked, I literally asked a distribution company who was in
25:59
a meeting with me. I go, you guys really have no idea how
26:00
you're gonna make money this year? Are you the Like, We're just gonna
26:03
throw up things as many things up against the wall as we can and see
26:07
what sticks and things are. And the wall is moving and the things you're
26:11
throwing up against the wall are moving. So it's a constant game of musical
26:15
chairs, and nobody really knows what's going on. So that's kind of why
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I always again talking about entrepreneurial is the exploitation of the movie is one revenue
26:23
stream, while you should be creating multiple other revenue streams from other products and
26:30
or services like food, like I mean, fork over knives. I mean
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those guys. I have them in my books as a case study as well,
26:37
because they were really food matters, fat, sick, and nearly dead.
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Even even Kung Fury, Kung Fury, that little short film. I
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remember that that guy, he you know, the niche of eighties action movies.
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I wouldn't say that's a social impact film, but depending how you look
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at it. Okay, I worked on a really bad Stephen Sigau movie.
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You mean so pretty much almost all of them except for the first maybe three
27:06
or four. Yeah, well, on Deadly Ground, I have to say
27:10
I like it. Oh wait, on denund is that the one is that
27:14
the oil one? No, Actually, on Deadly Ground is the one that
27:19
I worked on. Okay, horrible, it's a horrible movie. It's the
27:22
one with Michael Kaine right under Siege I think was the first one right that
27:26
he was actually decent at. So arguably this is my time of life.
27:33
So I worked in a video store during this time. So this is there's
27:36
a like I've said before on the show, there's a window of time that
27:41
I will challenge anybody to a trivial situation. So from from eighty seven to
27:45
ninety three, I pretty much watched everything that was put out. So during
27:51
that time there was above the law, hard to kill, mark for death,
27:55
out for justice, and then under Siege showed up. I would argunder
27:59
Siege in the middle Pack. Yeah, so under Siege, I would argue
28:02
is probably his best and was his biggest hit, and it was a Warner
28:04
Brothers release, Above the Law not bad. I have a small a good
28:10
place for me in a Heart to Kill, But I didn remember he did
28:12
on Deadly Ground if that's if I'm not mistaken, that's the oil one in
28:15
Alaska with Michael Caine, and he directed to see McGinley, Billy Thornton.
28:22
It was. It was an awesome cast, but he directed, he directed
28:26
it. He was so drunk on his own power. I could only imagine
28:30
what that was like, but he was. But it was a social podcast
28:33
of what not to do in studio production that that movie would check all the
28:40
box. But that was but that was a movie, if I remember correctly,
28:41
that was a social impact movie. He was trying to say something about
28:47
American m was American, Indian and oil and Theano Alaska. It was Alaska,
28:53
so it was so it was like the Natives of Alaska and all this.
28:57
So it really was a bit preachy, if I remember correct. It
29:00
was like a bit preaching. It was bad. It was just bad cinema.
29:07
It started to it started to take good about it was it. It
29:11
puts the money in the pocket that I could get closer to making my independent
29:15
film. That was the kind of help me get the slammed in. That's
29:18
the that's the way to look at it, an absolutely wonderful way to look
29:22
at it. My friend, I have to say, now, do you
29:26
have any tips for finding funding for these social impact films? Because when you're
29:32
doing a social impact film, funding opportunities are more relative than the action movie
29:38
starring Eric Roberts and Michael Madson. So you have places you could go to
29:44
get that. Do you have any tips for that for your listeners. We'll
29:48
be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the
29:55
show. Well, you know, I I do. I do cover that
29:57
a little bit in the book, and I and I have a list of
30:00
of of organizations and it really just depends kind of on how much you're looking
30:04
for. There's probably half a dozen or so, and I know seeden Spark
30:10
has has a lot of information about that fledgling. You can you can go
30:15
to the doc the I d A website see a really long list of organizations
30:25
that support docs, a lot of grants. What what's also interesting is that
30:32
is the crowdfunding campaign has kind of shifted to equity crowdfunding and and so now
30:37
you can get a you can get a piece of the movie instead of just
30:40
you know, a T shirt. So so I do think there are a
30:44
lot of opportunities and and and as as we both know, you can you
30:47
can make these movies for next to nothing. So just a question of how
30:51
creative, how creative you can be. But the other thing I'll just add
30:56
is there are companies like Creative Visions right that that really support as a fiscal
31:02
partner and with a lot of tools and outreach and a lot of examples,
31:07
and they have talks and they bring filmmakers in and they really support this social
31:12
impact space with a lot of information and resources that are hard to find in
31:18
one in one shop. So that's another organization to know about. And I
31:23
think moving forward, there has been definitely an uptick in social impact cinema over
31:30
the last twenty years. I mean just from the moment where I was talking
31:33
that little magical moment when I worked at a video store that you know from
31:37
there, I don't remember seeing many. You know, it was the eighties,
31:41
so it was a little different, but there wasn't a lot of social
31:44
impact films. But they have becoming more and more and more and more,
31:48
God, I can't believe inconvenient inconvenient truth. Yeah, that launched an entire
31:53
conversation. I talked about that a lot in my book. Oh that's it,
31:57
That's what triggered me. It was such a great It was such a
32:00
great It's such a powerful use of the medium. I mean what they were
32:06
able to do. And I actually taught trailer editing in colleges and classes,
32:09
and I bring out the Inconvenient Truth trailer. That trailer was so well edited
32:15
and it was so powerful, and it's Al Gore in doing a slight show,
32:22
the slide show like they made the movie they made Al Gore kind of
32:28
cool. It was kind of weird watching that. And then you watch a
32:31
movie like Supersize Me, which completely started a conversation, a global conversation about
32:38
obesity and about food and about so much so that the multi billion dollar company
32:44
stopped supersizing it was. That's amazing. It was amazing. So these films
32:52
do do hit and the in the just hyper sensitive times that we live and
32:58
where any little thing offends. The corporations are so sensitive to this. So
33:05
if can you imagine if Supersized Me showed up today? Oh my Oh my,
33:09
could you imagine because that was like pre was that pre that wasn't pre
33:13
internet, but it was like early it was really when did that come out?
33:16
Like that was the nineties? It was, Yeah, it's more than
33:20
it was more than ten years ago. No, it's it's definitely the nineties,
33:22
if I'm not mistaken. But late nineties when when that came out?
33:27
So late nineties or early two thousands, but it was like pre Facebook,
33:30
free, pre insane social media. I know you're looking it up. Go
33:35
ahead, go look it up because it's going to try and find it while
33:37
you're talking. But yeah, but so the I think that there is an
33:42
uptick, and I think it's a very powerful way for a filmmaker to make
33:45
a difference in the world and also, uh, change minds and and help
33:52
people with with this because we have were working arguably the most powerful media in
34:00
the world as far as cinema television content, like the video content. You
34:05
know, you can watch a movie and your life changes, like you make
34:08
a difference, you know. Yeah, and and it yeah, so two
34:14
thousand and four, by the way, okay, good, and I wasn't
34:15
too far off, not too far. But the thing is these movies are
34:22
are are movies that you you start a dialogue with somebody that may not know
34:27
anything about it. Right. You see something, it's like hearing a new
34:30
song. You want to tell your friend about that new song. You see
34:32
one of these movies and it strikes you somehow, it makes you want to
34:37
talk about it and share the information. And one of the things that I
34:39
think is the next wave. I started this a bit with Cause Cinema,
34:45
and then I got sidetracked with these other ideas, but is I believe there
34:50
needs to be a more concentrated approach at connecting the cause to the movie and
34:57
so that if you see the movie, when you finish the movie, you're
35:00
actually on a landing page that tells you more about the causes if you want
35:06
to get involved or make a donation or read more about it. That's something
35:09
that hasn't really happened yet. And I think, you know, Participant Media
35:14
was was the was the likely candidate to assume that role, and they did
35:17
a lot with their digital and then they shut it down. So somebody needs
35:23
to do that, and in a big way, because what you don't want
35:29
to do is see one of these movies that can really make a difference and
35:32
then kind of go out to dinner and forget about it. Right, you
35:37
want to be able to make a difference and and and that's why calls to
35:39
action are so important. Yeah. I just saw the film Game Changers,
35:43
which was I just read that was the biggest documentary in iTunes history within two
35:49
weeks, which about vegan athletes. And I've had so many people publicly now
35:55
come out, like Dolph Lungren and Iron Rob, Donny Junior and all these
36:00
people that watched the documentary. They're just like, yeah, I'm changing.
36:05
I'm not trying to preach your guys, eat your meat. It's up to
36:07
you. But I'm just I'm just using it as an example of a film
36:12
that's had immense impact. I mean, I haven't seen impact in that space
36:17
as much probably since either What the Health or fork Over n Over Knives they
36:23
were the first. Wasn't Fork over Knives the first Forks over Knives? Well,
36:27
I think Food Matters might have come around first, but I think Forks
36:30
over Knives is the one that really busted it open. And they were smart
36:34
talking about your film entrepreneurs. You know, they had they had a companion
36:38
piece, they had a magazine, they had a website. I mean,
36:40
they've created a whole franchise around this. But but I think I think that
36:45
you know Louis who also did the cove right Yes, and Racing Extinctions,
36:51
So he knows what he's doing. He's got an oscar and he knows how
36:54
to make a difference. And I think with with that movie came out of
36:59
Sundance last year, right, I didn't see it. Their Team Changers,
37:01
So yeah, it's going to have an impact for sure. And and more
37:06
importantly, back to your other comment about distribution, it doesn't really help if
37:09
you have a message and nobody sees it. Right, you got to you
37:15
got to find your audience and and not everybody's going to have the luck of
37:19
an acquisition out of sun Dance and and an iTunes yeah iTunes deal, and
37:23
also having James Cameron, ar Schwarzenegger and Jackie chann as your executive producers.
37:28
Like that doesn't hurt, doesn't didn't hurt in the least. Uh De Man,
37:34
I want to I wanted to thank you again for being on the show.
37:36
I'm going to ask you a few questions. I ask all of my
37:37
guests what advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today,
37:44
I think I think mentorship is key. Uh, find people that are
37:49
doing what you want to be doing and reach out to them because most of
37:54
them are willing to help. And and if you know what genre you want
37:59
to be in, try and find somebody that's making projects in that genre.
38:02
I think one of the other one of the other challenges is some people think
38:07
they want to make movies, but it turns out they don't want to make
38:12
movies. You just want to be connected to the movie business. So I
38:15
think, you know, part of the challenge is to figure out which part
38:17
of the iss you want to be in, right and and then figure out
38:21
who can mentor you and give you advice on on on the best path to
38:24
reach that goal. So, so you need to tell me there's people in
38:27
the business who just want to be famous and don't really care about the work.
38:30
Stop at john Stop. Yeah, Next, you're going to tell me
38:34
distributors are you know a lot of distributors are predatory? Like what do you
38:37
what are you even saying? What is? It's up as down down as
38:40
up? Cats and dogs living together masssterio That the key is get into a
38:45
training program and and be willing to do internships because a lot of those internships
38:50
lead to full time gigs. Yeah, and if not, it starts a
38:52
sponge, and if not, you start building that rhinoceros skin that you need
38:55
that you need to build up in this business. Without question, that's right
39:00
now. What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn, whether
39:02
in the film business or in life. I think the lesson that I learned
39:07
over time in the film business was I kind of believe that if you did
39:10
something and you did it really, really well, that you you'd be able
39:15
to make a lot of money. I love that. That's awesome. And
39:22
then I realized, Okay, if I want to be a really good curator
39:27
and a really good fescil director, or I want to teach film classes,
39:32
or I want to write books, unfortunately most of those don't generally pay.
39:42
Making documentaries is not going to make you rich. We'll be right back after
39:46
a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. I'm not
39:54
saying I got in this to get rich. I'm just saying I think I
39:57
kept saying I'm not going to think about the finance picture and what I have
40:00
to do to get my kids through school. Sure, I'm gonna work really
40:02
hard, and so I think the lesson was, you know what, you
40:06
got to go the other way. You got to you gotta love what you
40:08
do. And fortunately for me, I've loved every minute of this journey.
40:13
I've I've got to make movies, I've got to meet and discover tons of
40:15
filmmakers. I love what I do. But but you the lesson I learned
40:22
was you can't think about where the money is going to come from and think
40:27
that just if I do this really well and I work really hard and I'm
40:30
good at that, the money will come. Because the truth is some of
40:31
these some of these categories in the film space don't pay as well as you
40:37
know, producing a movie for twenty century Fox, and even those films sometimes
40:40
or Disney or exactly, there is no more twenty century Fox or come on,
40:45
come On, It's gone now. And three of your favorite films of
40:49
all time, I have to say Citizen Kane. I saw it in film
40:55
school, and you know that's kind of an easy answer is Beautiful, which
41:00
I had the pleasure of showing with Benini and everyone there at the Chinese when
41:06
I was Running a Fi. I love that movie and uh gosh, my
41:10
third one, I think one of the most impactful movies for me kind of
41:15
coming out of film school. Sexualizing videotape. Yeah, Soderbergh's first film,
41:23
and actually What puts on Dance on the Map. Yeah, very influential,
41:30
well, he is in general. Those are three Those are three three big
41:32
ones. Yes, even as in general very influential. What he does and
41:36
what he's doing now with iPhones is pretty insane. So I'm glad there's someone
41:39
like him out there doing what he's doing, and for that and for that
41:43
sake, and and for and and also I'm glad that you're out there doing
41:46
what you're doing and fighting the good fight and helping filmmakers find not only you
41:53
know, meaning sometimes and using this medium to actually help other people, which
41:58
is very important, but also helping them find their path in this business and
42:02
in life. And if you once you get a taste of this, uh,
42:06
of doing something social and something that helps other people, it's fairly addictive,
42:10
uh and very rewarding. Yeah. Yeah, it might. You might
42:14
not live in the Hollywood Hills, but you're happy. You're happier I feel,
42:19
but you know, you ever like you live in the Hollywood Hills and
42:21
have social impact. I mean, look, Arnold did it. Yeah yeah.
42:25
One of the taglines I use for for Cause Cinema was see good,
42:30
do good, feel good. I think that kind of sums it up right.
42:34
You get to see good social impact movies. You want to do good
42:38
right with the call to action, and you'll feel good for doing so.
42:42
That's that's an amazing thank Thanks for having me, man, It's it's an
42:45
honor to be here. I've been I've been listening to your show and a
42:49
huge fan. I appreciate that. But thanks so much. And real quick,
42:52
where can people find you in your in your work? Uh? Cause
42:55
pictures dot com is is kind of my my anchor organization. And then for
43:01
the book Filmmaking for Change obviously, thank you so much, brother. I
43:07
appreciate you coming on the show and keep fighting the good fight, my friend.
43:09
Thank you you too. I want to thank John so much for being
43:15
on the show and being an inspiration to the tribe on how to use your
43:21
filmmaking to change the world, to change society. And again, guys,
43:25
you know you don't have to put all the pressure of the world and the
43:30
world's problems on your art and on your films and on your writing. But
43:35
as you can make a slight change, use a theme, use something that
43:39
can change somebody's mind to really help the world as a whole. It is
43:46
I think, really really important that you use this very powerful medium that we
43:52
call filmmaking to make a change in the world in any small way we can.
43:58
Now. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in
44:00
this episode, including links to his book Filmmaking for Change, head over to
44:04
the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv. Forward slash three sixty six.
44:08
Thank you so much for listening, guys, As always, keep on writing
44:12
no matter what. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to the
44:15
Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproofscreenwriting dot tv.