Latest / Psyched For Sanity / Episode 40 - Personality Tests: What Do They Really Mean?

Transcript

Episode 40 - Personality Tests: What Do They Really Mean? · Psyched For Sanity

• 0:11
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, welcome to Psych for Sanity.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: I am one of your hosts, Dr.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: Tara McKelvey Parker.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a licensed clinical psychologist.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_02: I work in private practice, and I specialize in assessing and treating complex trauma and attachment wounds from childhood.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm your other host, Dr.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Brendel Doss.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm also a licensed psychologist specializing in geriatric psychology, forensic psychology, uh, trauma treatment, and assessment.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: And today we're talking about personality quizzes.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: Personality.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: Personality quizzes.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: Do we have any personality?
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think so.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: I think so.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: And after taking these quizzes, I know my personality even more.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: Because I know what mythical creature I am.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, for Pete's sake.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: So uh when you talk to me about this episode, I'm not gonna lie, I was skeptical.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: And apparently that fits with some of my some of my characteristics on these quizzes.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: So we did some silly quizzes because we thought it would be kind of funny, and I don't know about you all, but I like to take silly BuzzFeed quizzes, you know, like what Harry Potter house do I belong in, and what obviously Slytherin.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a Slitherclaw.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, so sorry.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: I thought the actual Pottermore quiz labeled me Slytherin, but the BuzzFeed quiz labeled me Ravenclaw.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm a Slitherclaw, but probably more of a Slytherin at heart.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, that sounds about me.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know, determined.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: Can I just be a Ravenclaw?
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: You can I get well, you gotta take the quiz.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't take that quiz.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: So we we decided it would be fun to take some some silly personality quizzes and talk about some of the results and then talk a little bit more about some scientifically backed personality assessments and then what we do in our private practice when we're assessing personality.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you think so?
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: Before I reveal my first results, why do people take these quizzes?
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you enjoy taking taking them?
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I I mean, I I think they're fun, first of all.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I think for me and for most people, taking quizzes and and testing and and all of that, it just it just helps us understand ourselves a little bit better.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and I think it can be labels are are helpful for language for talking about yourself.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: And um, it's just nice to be understood, even though, as we will talk about momentarily, at least with these silly quizzes, um, there's a lot of broad concepts that's that are relatable it really like to most people, to a lot of people, so they're not um really specifically tailored to you, but it feels like that, right?
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: It feels so applicable, and you're like, Yes, I'm a unicorn.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: I am a unicorn.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like that's gonna go in the blooper reel.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a unicorn.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's what mythological is.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: Make a note of a time on that.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Make a note of the time on that, Dylan.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's a blooper.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's very flattering for so for some reason.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's very flattering.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: But you were disappointed when you read the blurb about the unicorn.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the blurb is ridiculous.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: Not helpful.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's not helpful.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's nothing about personality and much more about unicorns.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: The history of unicorn.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: The history of unicorns, which was like not as fun.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: But it makes sense because it was a national geographic.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: It was a it was a children's quiz from National Geographic, just full disclosure.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: Disclosure.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: So, of course, they'd go into the history of unicorns.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: I also got a unicorn, which I'm very fine with.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: She was in you were not very fine.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: We took this quiz together and she was ecstatic.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: I was worried I was gonna be a dragon.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, I was really worried about the dragon coming out.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: Hold on, why would you be worried about being a dragon?
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I was cool.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: I well, dragons, but they're also like people are scared of them.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's true.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I like that.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I don't perceive that dragons have a lot of friends.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't want to be fire breathing.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: Really, that sounds like actually incredible.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: I just, but I just feel like they I was just a lonely.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: I like people.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like unicorns are more popular.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be popular, I want to be a popular unicorn.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, good, good to know, right?
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: Despite this quiz being kind of silly, we're learning a lot about our personalities right now as we talk about why she really wants to be a unicorn.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, the same came out for me because I was like, oh, I'm a unicorn too.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: Even though I'm like, okay, dragon sounds pretty cool.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: So like, what does that mean about our personalities?
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: I think some of these can be helpful for self-reflection.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: It stirs up stuff in us that we can talk about, even though like there's no scientific backing.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: For the BuzzFeed quizzes.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: They're just fun.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's disappointing because my BuzzFeed, Disney princess slash Disney Villain, is highly accurate.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, let me hear it because I didn't feel like mine was all that accurate.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: So you're an equal combination of Tatiana from The Princess and the Frog and Corella DeVille from 101 Dom Nations.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: You're extremely passionate about everything you do.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: You're a dedicated, natural-born leader, and you're also extroverted.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: There you go.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: You're hardworking to the bone.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: You firmly believe that if something's worth doing, it's worth doing well.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: Which means you're not afraid to roll up your sleeves and do it yourself instead of relying on other people.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: You're incredibly patient, but people look up to you the most because you're of your ambitious and resourceful tenac uh tendencies.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that actually sounds really lovely.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh hey, that just means you'll stop at nothing short of success.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: I also feel like I really do enjoy frogs.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: I like a I like frogs.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I hope I don't alienate too many of our listeners and our viewers.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: What are you gonna say?
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm more of a cat person than a dog person, but I don't wish harm on any dog like Corilla Deville.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just saying the princess and the villain element.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm more of a cat person.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, me too.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I like a frog.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: And you like so it really fit for you.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: This is really funny because she's describing this blurb, and and of course, I have the research in my brain as she's saying it.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, yeah, that could describe so many people.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: Say the research, because this is why we're talking about this today.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: Well, first let me read mine and talk about how I actually don't think it's I mean, a kind kind of.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: When I with these quizzes, I always like take them twice because I always That's cheating.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: I know, but it feels these are too simple for me, and my brain starts like needs to make it complicated?
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: My brain needs to make lots of things complicated, yes.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then I'm like, okay, I like that part from that one and that part from that one, and that, my friends, is confirmation bias.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna buy you a cherry picker.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I got I have an equal combination of Jasmine from Aladdin and Scar from the Lion King.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: First line, I really Actually, I really agree with both of those.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_02: Really?
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: Why?
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: First tell me why, and then I'll read my description.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, Jasmine is really a strong, independent woman, but Death Des Rick really wants a like a like equal partnership.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: But she's not gonna like compromise her values to be with someone that's not inequal.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: And Scar can hold grudge.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: Scar can really not let things go and get really, really, really mad and just die on that hill.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: That is okay.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: I like what you said so much more.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_02: No, I'm gonna read the first line, and I want you to guess why I was actually incensed.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: I I'm pretty sure I can.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: I know you pretty well.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: You're the ultimate flirt.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that would be This is how they're describing Jasmine.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_02: I like your description of the.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: I don't describe Jasmine as a flirt at all.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: Well, these people do, and I was like, wow, way to stereotype a like you know, attractive looking woman.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_02: There's I'm being serious.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really annoyed by this line.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: I know, but I I don't really perceive Jasmine to be a flirty princess.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: I don't either, which is why this is dumb.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I like yours more.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: But here's the rest.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: You're independent.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: That's true.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, rebellious.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: I definitely have a rebellious part and pretty extroverted.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: You're less extroverted than I am.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: I don't mean extroverted on the I know you do.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um you always strive for more, and you're a no-nonsense kind of person.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: That's not true.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: You're not afraid to say what's on your mind, maybe more these days.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: Which means you definitely won't stand for anyone's BS in life.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: Not true.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: You do stand for some BS way more than I do.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: What?
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: I think you stand for yeah, I think you're like I tolerate more BS than I need to.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you approach things through sarcasm, like a lot of sarcasm.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: No, you don't really not.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not a sarcastic person.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: And people love you most because you act based on emotion.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think that describes a little bit more me than you.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: I'm this is I'm telling you.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, even though you have a rebellious side, your free-spiritedness and bravery keep you grounded.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: That's very generic.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's not at all.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's not no.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: So none of that really like like it's some of it kind of fits, but more, more, more not.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm like, you know, but of course, so confirmation.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: We love these quizzes because confirmation bias, first of all, we focus on the things that do fit.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: And then we're like, ooh, this really gets me.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I mean, this one not.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: Are we talking about the Barnum effect?
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: So there's like there's a couple of like um concepts I think that when we think about these kinds of quizzes and why they're so fascinating.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, psychology calls it Barnum effect.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: There's confirmation bias, Barnum effect.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: Barnum effect is we tend to take these global concepts and like tailor them to us.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so we're like, oh, extroverted.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: But there's it's these broad terms, and we're like, ooh, yes.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's a tendency to see yourself in these kind of broad strokes that that are like really generic in a sense.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: If you really, if you really sit with this and you really read it and it's like it could describe a lot of people, it's not very specific.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then confirmation bias is then when you focus on the things only that fits.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_02: You're like, wow, this quiz really gets me, even though there were maybe just a couple of pieces that day, and you're focused on those instead of all the other things that it didn't get right.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so these are just silly and fun, you know, and broad, and but it's kind of like, oh, okay.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but I think it kind of goes to what you said earlier that that we take these quizzes and these are developed because they are silly and fun.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we want to understand ourselves and know ourselves, and sometimes we want to know what animal we are.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_02: Or what kind of like, you know, car you are.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: That was you.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: Do you remember getting asked that question when on po for postdoc interviews?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: Vaguely.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, what kind of car would you describe yourself as?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: Oh gosh, I wish I knew my answer.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know what you answered?
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know my answer to that.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe they didn't.
• 10:55
  unknown: What?
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: You okay you answered the most like generic.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's reliable.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: Good gas mileage?
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: Look, I was interviewing, guys, guys, guys.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: I was interviewing for a postdoctoral fellowship.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: You wanted to be a reliable Lamborghini.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: You wanted to be a reliable.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm reliable.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'm efficient, I get good gas mileage, and you can count on me.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know what I mean?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I said that.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's a really smart answer.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a really dumb question for a job, by the way.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: I still think that's a good idea.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, like we also got asked what our favorite guilty pleasure was.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: Do you remember?
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: I I think I'm disassociated from that entire process.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: The only my first memory of our postdoctoral fellowship is sitting in the other building, and we were finally left alone after half a day of training, and I turned to the rest of you and I said to you, This is gonna be a war.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: And y'all didn't know me from Adam, and y'all were like, What?
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then months later, one of you turned to me, either you or Dr.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: Brenner was like, You were right.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: I remember that from that experience.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: I remember the interview.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: I know where this is gonna be a war.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, like, yes, these are kind of like superficial personality quizzes that anyone can take, and they're not really scientifically backed.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think we there's like kind of tears, right?
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: So then you we kind of get a little bit more scientific backing with some other personality tests that you may be more familiar with, like the Enneagram.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: The Enneagram's a big deal right now.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it has been for a while.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's really popular.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: I don't necessarily talk about it in depth a lot, but I like to be like, what's your number?
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's just right.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's like labels, they kind of help boil down a really complicated person, right?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: Right, into like this sort of like understandable right, yeah.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_02: Which I think if you can hold that with also this is not the be all end all right, and people are complicated and nuanced, it's just kind of funny to be like, I'm a nine.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what's your number?
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: I know you rolled your eyes because you don't like the enneagram.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like the Enneagram.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like the Enneagram, but that's uh yeah.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: My uh both of my parents are mental health professionals, and um they were heavily trained on another kind of personality measure that has some some research behind it, um, but also has some challenges in that research.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: The Myers Briggs type indicator.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so I I am an E N F J and I was taught from a younger age what those letters mean.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: So the Myers Briggs type indicator uh is used in somewhat in vocational psychology, I think, historically.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, so I was technically trained as a counseling psychologist.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: So we had to learn all of the personality, not all of them, but many of them for vocational testing.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, to help people with career exploration.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: So the MBTI, at least the one I was in training, was used pretty regularly in those kinds of batteries.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, so we all got to take the MBTI.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm also an ENFJ.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: Which is really funny, which is I love this part of our relationship because generally speaking, when I meet another person that has my same temperament or same letters, uh-huh, I generally don't like them.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: I've told it's important.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: I generally don't connect with other folks that have my but you and I hit it off very early.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's funny.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's but it's yeah, but I really don't.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so we could talk a little bit about what the MBTI measures and in and the NU and Graham, even though you you dislike it.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: But the yes, the MBTI, and your parents have an interesting theory, or your mom is it specifically about the MBTI, but it it kind of measures four dimensions of personality.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: Introversion, introversion to extroversion.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think a good way to to to think about these dimensions are it's like a like a scale, and you're more towards one way or the other.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_02: And then so not actually the the it's not actually how the MBT the MBTI tends to categorize it and kind of splits you, even though that's actually one of the problems with it.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: Because what you're saying is personality exists on a continuum and context really matters.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: One of the main issues with the MBTI is if you take it and you're an extrovert, you might take it later and just answer a little differently and get introvert.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: If you're like kind of barely on the extroverted side, and then your whole letter changes.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_02: Well, but even though your personality is.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: What they say in terms of that aspect is as we get older, we actually move slightly more towards the other letter.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's interesting.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: On the MTI.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so that's even though it's not a stable feature, it's like a it's it's it's not stable.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: That's the problem with the MBTI, is you can just take it multi, you know, over time or different times in your letter continue.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think my mother and father would disagree with you, but that's okay.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: They're allowed to disagree.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: What would they disagree with?
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think they would say it is stable, and that it like there's a there's a supposed to be like a maturing within the the dimension.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: So that's how I was raised.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think that makes sense if we're talking about personality on a continuum.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: And that's how I was uh uh that's how it was conceptualized to me.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I think for I don't necessarily know if that's in the literature.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_02: That would be the M BTI.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: So it sounds like your parents were thinking about it in a more nuanced way.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_02: That's what is helpful.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: So introverted to extroverted, and you know, introvert, they tend they tend to generate their energy from self from from being alone.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: From time alone.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: Connecting back with themselves.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: Connecting with themselves.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: People who are extroverted more of the time.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: People who are extroverted will see uh 10 patients in a day and call their mother on the way home.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: I you're you're much, I feel like you're pretty.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very extroverted.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: You're very extroverted.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: I was I remember taking the MB MBTI and only being kind of slightly extroverted.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: I do really love being around people and I get a lot of energy from people.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: But other times I feel I can feel pretty drained.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I need to recharge on my own.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um then we have the sensing or intuition.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: I can I can I describe this one?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: Describe it.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: So the this is how I was explained this this these two dimensions.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Sensing is like um really grounded, like like really of and in the world, like really grounded in sensibility.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: And the intuitives, we're out in space, we're floating, we're sort of like bigger thinkers in that sense.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Not that sensing types can't be big thinkers, but it's just more of like it's big abstract constructs.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's big picture, definitely.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: So this is how you take in information, right?
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: So either like what is actually in front of you, grounded, grounded, reality, fact, kinda, or like, yeah, you're thinking about um patterns, thinking about possibilities.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: You're seeing the big picture.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_02: I think this is you know how my my brain functions more of the time, for sure.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we tend to be like, ah, you know, yeah.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so intuitives can sometimes like in the world be kind of spacey, is what the is is the vibe we get.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um and like less realistic, even though I'm pretty rational about stuff.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: What's the next dimension?
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, then we have thinking uh and feeling.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: So once you've taken in information from your environment, how do you tend to make decisions?
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: People who are thinkers tend to use logic and fact, and they're a little bit more rational with how they make decisions, and people who are feelers more of the time are are relying on their values, they're relying on their relationships, emotion, like they kind of make decisions based on those things.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and see the MBTI really splits it and says you're either or, but but really it's like you can kind of do this more, you tend to be right in this sort of make decisions in this way, but it doesn't mean that we can't make rational logic decisions, but it's just not our go go-to if we lean more on that side of the side.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't mean that people that are more what's considered thinking types are not able to connect or operate from a relational ra relational perspective.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, of course, yes.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: So it's just kind of describes tendencies.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: Usually we lean a particular way and in certain contexts it can change in with age and maturity.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: And um and then the last one, and this one always is so funny for me.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's poorly named.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's poorly named too, because it's judging versus perceiving.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: And this is sort of like how you interact with your external world.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: Those of us who are judgers, because we're both J's, we to and which is why it's it's an unfortunate label, because it makes us sound kind of bad.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: But really, these folks are the ones who like to be planned and organized and structured.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_02: They are your friend that's like, hey, do you want to have dinner next weekend?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_02: Let's put it in the calendar.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: And they're the people that they're gonna, they're gonna like if there's several options in front of this person, they're gonna foreclose and make a decision now.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: They don't want to sit with any ambiguity or really feel out all the options.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: Versus other people, like my my sister and my spouse, they want to look at all the options forever and ever and never make a decision.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: That's funny.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: I do okay, I hadn't really thought about it that so yeah, perceivers then really, really want to look at everything and consider all possible parameters.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so they're the ones that want things to be flexible and a little bit more spontaneous.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so you try to put something on the calendar with them and they're like, let's see how it goes next weekend.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, no.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: I want to set it down.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a judger and I need you to give me a time and day.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: I always like to say about myself that I can be spontaneous and flexible and have fun, but I need it to be in an allotted time period in a structured manner.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like I, on Saturday from this time to this time, will go do whatever I want.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, otherwise I'm planning my day.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: This is just how my brain functions.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so perceivers are kind of like, let's just see where the wind blows us.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like, let's be open to all the possibilities.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so I I tend I have a lot of friends who are peas, and I it's always really it's always really funny to joke about.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: So now is now the time I tell the theory.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: I feel this is the time.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, tell you tell about your your your parents' theory based on the MPT.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: They really like the MBT idea of her.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, they do.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's been a helpful structure for them to understand their relationship and help their patients.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I don't knock it because it really it seems.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: And it is helpful.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's just again, there's a little bit of um there's some issues with the test retest, the reliability of the assessment.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: And so there it gets some flack, right?
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: And this sort of like um in the academic circles, I would say.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: In the academic circles, and the fact that it really champions this more distinct kind of like you're either this or this.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: And that's not really it's it's more complicated than that.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: So as I was growing up across this is so funny, you know, maturing through adolescence and looking for, you know, life mates and and and people um for companionship, my mother told me that I need to find someone but with my sister's personality, someone that was the opposite of my personality.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Someone that is um more introverted, more reserved, someone that is more um like grounded in reality and less loosey-goosey, less out in space, someone that is more like of a perceiving type that can be more flexible and look at all the options, and someone that is less emotionally a fool than I am.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: And what was funny about that is that me and my sister both got this speech um several, multiple, many times, many times, many, many times, many times, many times.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: And um, we were like, Mom, stop, mom, you know, teenagers are so unhelpful and uh, you know, maybe disrespectful, maybe not.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um But what's funny is this is the part that's hilarious.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: So the whole thing her whole theory is if you can find a partner that has opposite letters from you, but similar values and similar like lifestyle experiences, like maybe valuing faith or valuing like travel, but opposite letters, not to the extreme, because I was raised as on a continuum, not a boxer.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so same values but different MBTI letters.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: But not like if you have an extreme extrovert and an extreme introvert, that's not gonna be compatible.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, yeah, that makes sense.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: Or like if you're extreme per extreme perceiving with extreme judgment, or just opposite in that be hard to meet in the middle, though.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: So her theory, this was her theory.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: If you found someone with opposite letters, but not to the extreme, with a similar value set and wanted a similar life goals.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, and this was just she just came up with this theory.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: She's really really brilliant, my mother is disturbing.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: I once got her a plaque that said goddess of all words, because I've never found a word in the English language.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: My mother does not know the word, can use it in a sentence, and get a rough definition.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's really um it's quite disturbing.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: Sounds very gifted.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: She's she's lovely.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: Wonderful.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so blessed.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um But so if you find a person that has your opposite letters, but not to the extreme, but similar values, the goal is in partnership and in a relationship, you kind of balance each other out.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: My emotionality is definitely helped by my spouse's sensibility and logic.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: Did marry someone the opposite?
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: The thing about it is.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: So what happened was me and my sister both married.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: Both me and my sister married the exact opposite temperament and did exactly what our mother wanted us to inadvertently.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't planned.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: It seeps in there, guys.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: It seeps in.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: Positive, negative temperature.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um even when you have an adolescent who's looking at you and saying, I don't care.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, they care.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, they care.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, so no, I uh it turns out from my perspective, my mom was right.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_02: That's hilarious.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know that I remembered the part.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'm kind of teasing, you know, teasing the whole thing, but I didn't remember the part about if you're extremes, then it not working, because I think that is really important.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, it's helpful to have someone who balances you out, but can ultimately meet you in the middle in a compromise, and that's much easier if you're not extremely on the other side.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: Balance those parts of you that like introverts might have a tendency to be too withdrawn, you know?
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: In some contexts.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: So they need to be able to do that.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: So someone who's a gentle extrovert, pull them out of their show.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: And even an extrovert needs a night at home to connect in.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: Sure, yeah.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: So we we can have entire conversations about the MBTI.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: I can.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um the Instagram, she's a little bit less cool.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm against it.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: She has she won't even take the quick I refuse.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: But she does have a couple of ideas about her numbers, and I am gonna make her say it because I remember them.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: I wrote them down.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: Don't wear them.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: This is this is exactly this is why she's a J.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: She wrote it down.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm actually an extreme J.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: Are you?
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm an extreme J.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have loosened my my parents worked really hard to loosen up my J.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: No, I work, I feel like I just get more and more J.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: No, I more and more J.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: I yeah.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe not really, but I was like, I was gently like, you need to relax a little bit.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to relax.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: I want to stay hyper-vigilant to all.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: Great, great, right, cool, cool, cool.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go find you a mate.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: Kidding.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: What someone apparently who is not an extreme pee.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: I need just a little bit of pee.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: A medium.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, we're gonna move on from that one.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so sorry.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_02: So sorry.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so the Enneagram is cool.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: You're not gonna be able to stop laughing.
• 26:21
  unknown: Keep going.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: The Enneagram.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_02: The Enneagram is another personality measure that has some it's kind of cool, and there's a little bit more scientific backing.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and there's nine different personality organizations, and the cool thing about the Enneagram is it tells you why you do certain things.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: So um there's usually a core fear, desire, and motivation behind each of the types of personality organizations.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm a nine.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, and so usually we value inner peace, harmony, stability.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and we really fear disintegration, loss, conflict.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so we tend to want to be more easygoing and you know, to really repair conflict and things like that.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: But I will say, when nine, so there's this an Enneagram theory, when you're in health, right?
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: You when you're a nine, you kind of look like a a three.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: And when you're actually in stress, you look like a six.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: And the six.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: This is why I had to do remedial math in college.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: The sixes are the more anxious, sort of really like value stability and safety.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: So when we are more stressed as nines, we tend to look more anxious than.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like it's like you're less of a number.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: Well, but not necessarily.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's just like when we're stressed, our core fears and motivations and values change.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: And then when we're in a healthier space, we look like a three, which is the achiever, which is one of the ones that you think you are.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yes, okay.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: We mentioned this.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_02: The three is the achiever.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: They're the ones that really value achievements.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: I do.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: They really value productivity because their fear actually is that they are n they they don't have value without achieving.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so they tend to really be motivated by achievement.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um that's the three.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the only part about that is that I I definitely don't think that my achievements affect my worth though.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I have gone to therapy.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: I mean maybe.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and maybe in certain areas.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I do think some of us have a more pervasive lack of self-worth.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then some of us tend to feel more insecure in certain areas.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: So then we may really we may feel really motivated to achieve in those specific areas.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but the other one you said you thought you were where it was an eight.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: What is I don't even remember what these are called.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_02: Eight is the challenger.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: I suppose was it a warrior?
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because I remember it's a warrior one.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: The challenger.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_02: These um these folks are more motivated, they don't want to look weak or vulnerable or be controlled.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: So they tend to be motivated by being independent and being in charge and contr you know, uh of their environment because of of that reason.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't I guess so.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: I obviously don't like desire to be vulnerable.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: I have no problem being vulnerable in a lot of contexts.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess I guess I could sort of see myself with that one because I was recently attending a virtual conference and I asked a question, it was answered, and it was kind of answered in like a not kind way, and I was like in front of like virtually like they can be very 250 like virtual people.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, Well, that's that's uncool.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like that was rude.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like this she didn't have to answer that way.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe that's yeah, maybe.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe you need to take the quiz.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: She's not going to do it.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: So the Enneagram is fun and it's it's kind of fun to talk about, and there's a whole, you know, there's a ton of theory behind the Enneagram and it's a little bit more scientifically backed.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um when we talk about personality assessments in private practice, what are we talking about recently?
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: Are you giving the Enneagram as part of a formal attest of batteries?
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_02: Do you not give the Enneagram as part of a formula or the Myers Briggs?
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: Because they don't really hit the metrics, right, that we want to have in an assessment for it to be in terms of the bigger.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: What are some of those metrics?
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: So the assessments that we use are generally validated.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: So validated means?
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: Meaning that it measures what it's supposed to measure.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's been um it's been tested alongside other measures that also measure anxiety, right?
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_02: So we know based on research.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: So it's converg, you know, convergent validity?
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: Is that the fancy word?
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: There's different types of validity.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there's different kinds of validity.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_02: Do not make me go into that right now.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_02: I'm only prepared to talk about validity on a very basic.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: I just, I just I just tweaked your J a little bit.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_02: No, you're totally she did.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: She did.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: No, but yes, you're totally right.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not, it's just essentially it's measuring what it's supposed to measure because we've compared its metrics against other assessments that also measure that thing.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: Measure the construct.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_02: Know that we're getting an assessment that measures what we're wanting it to measure.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: Reliability.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: Reliability is basically um in test literature.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh if we administer this test across time, are we going to get the same results?
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: So is it a reliable measure of the construct that we're looking at in terms of personality?
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: Other things.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: Which is why the Myers Briggs is sometimes called into question, right?
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's there's some research that says it's not quite reliable.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then the assessments that we give usually have norms, meaning that lots of people have taken this test and we are able to compare your results to other people of the same age, right?
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: Of the same SE, like socioeconomic status, the same sex, same gender, like all of that stuff, actually.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so then we can really have more confidence about what your score means.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: The way you're scoring is it more or less than other people who are very much like you.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then most of these measures that we're giving in private practice when we're doing personality assessment, um, they have some like indexes on them that help us understand if you're responding consistently or not.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, if you're pretending to be more uh if you're if you're like sort of faking bad or faking good.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: Overly positive or negative responding.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: If you're inconsistently responding.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, because all this skews results.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: So if we have some of this flag, then we need we know we need to look at these results with some caution.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so all of these are real important for us, but if you come in for a personality assessment, we're giving some of these measures.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: In psychology, why would a psychologist give a norm-referenced personality test?
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: What does that help us with?
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh accuracy?
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think it also helps uh me understand this person from a like as a it actually helps me sketch out more of you and understand widely why would we want to give a personality assessment?
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes people come in to my private practice specifically to want to know about their personality.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and they think maybe they have a narcissistic personality disorder or a borderline personality disorder.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so then, you know, I would use some of these measures to be able to give them a diagnosis.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um more of the time for me, I integrate personality assessment in like all of my batteries because I think it's really helpful to be able to help a person, like if they have a generalized anxiety disorder, for instance, to be able to understand the psychological processes that help to sort of develop those symptoms and that diagnosis because there are certain cognitions and way you view yourself and relate to people, right?
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: All of the defenses, how you cope with emotion that help you understand why you potentially develop this particular diagnosis.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I just I really like personality testing in general because it it helps us understand who we are.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_02: It gives us a lot of insight.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and so I uh, you know, some examples of some of these tests we're talking about are the personality assessment inventory.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: The PAI.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: I use that one quite a bit.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm more and more working with the MMPI.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: I that one's a great gold standard gold standard.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: Very complex, very very intense test.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I don't know as much about it.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: I use the PAI more, right?
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: But the MMPI is great.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: And then there's the MCMI as well, which we used a lot on post postdoc.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: That was a big one.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um and those are all objective, and there are some projective measures of personality that also are scientifically backed, reliable, valid, um, including the new scoring system of the Rorschach.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: There's actually a ton of scientific backing for the RPAS model, not so much the XNR model.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um the adult attachment projective as well.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: Right, you have a lot of familiarity with that.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh, which is actually um it was validated based on the adult attachment interview.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I I love projective assessments and people that are scientifically backed.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know, well personality, huh?
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: I think these personality assessments, I think it's really fine.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_02: I think they can be helpful if it makes you self-reflective.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think what I enjoy most about them is when I help someone and give someone feedback from results of a test.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I ask them to read that section or look at that section with me.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of the times it really helps the person understand themselves from a different perspective and see themselves.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that makes those people are like, oh my gosh, that's that is me.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: That makes a lot of sense.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: Or oh, that's exactly how I love helping people feel understood.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's one of it's one of my favorite things in the entire world to do.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think it's really cool.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I think labels, personality labels in particular, can be more unhelpful if they you know, if I were to say, like, oh, I'm a nine, so I avoid conflict, right?
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_02: And the Enneagram, we tend to avoid conflict.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_02: So I can't do anything about that.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_02: That's just who I am.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think that's that might be a full episode at some point.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think that happens across, not just with personality.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it kind of reminds me, yeah, of the um therapy speak episode that we talked about, right?
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: How labels can be self-fulfilling prophecy and unhelpful if they and how it's used to avoid and or it I feel like it decreases curiosity when it's used in that function.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly, exactly.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that was totally our point with the Therapy Speaks Therapy Speak episode too.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like when people are really just focused on labels in a concrete way that decreases curiosity, it's not helpful.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I just want to tell you that I I I think you're absolutely Jasmine, but my interpretation?
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: I like your interpretation so much more.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_02: Didn't I do a really good job of that?
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: You need to write personality quizzes.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_02: Contact Nat Geo right now.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: Was that geo?
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: Was that Aladdin or is that a BuzzFeed?
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_02: So that was a buzzfeed one.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: I need to write them and talk about how I think they stereotype Jasmine.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: I'm very angry about this.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very angry.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know what?
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: We're unicorns together.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I love you, and you're the best.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_02: I know I love you too.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: Enjoy thinking about your personality.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, let us know what your results are.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: Oh gosh.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, if you want to, you don't have to.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really excited.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: Oh gosh.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you are.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think you should.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is intended for informational and educational purposes only, and is not a substitute for therapy, diagnosis, or any kind of professional mental health treatment.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: We hope that we can share with you our experience authentically and genuinely, and we hope that occasionally we'll make you laugh.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you can relate to our quest and how we're psyched for sanity.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: The content we share is our personal opinions and insights.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: They are not clinical insights to anyone, and they don't represent or reflect any entity that we work in or have worked for in the past.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: But if listening to this podcast has made you think, we really encourage you to seek out a mental health professional in your area.