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Janell Hickman. Beauty Editor and Communications Strategist interview · Skin Anarchy

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• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Hi guys, welcome back to Swink Care Anarchy.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: This is your host, Dekta.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: Today I have um with me Janelle Hickman.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Janelle is a beauty editor, she's a freelance writer.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: She also has a lot of experience in the PR sector of the beauty industry.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: So without further ado, I'm really excited to introduce you guys to Janelle.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the show.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so, so happy you're here.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited to have you here.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I really want you to tell us all about your career because I think um, you know, from what I was seeing, you you have a few hats that you wear.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: So could you dive into your um career history?
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for sure.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so it's a very long story, but I'll try to keep it short.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um I initially moved to New York with the intention to be a fashion editor.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: So I always just had this big dream about working in fashion and being backstage with the shows and whatnot.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um I got to New York in 2008, it was a very tricky time economically.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: So a lot of magazines were closing.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there wasn't a ton of opportunities.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I ended up going into PR.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: So I didn't have the intention to be a publicist, nor was it something that I thought I'd stay for long.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I ended up getting a really great contract um role at Victoria's Secret, which was probably, I have to say, like looking back 10 years in, probably one of my favorite jobs just because every day was so different.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: Some days I'd be working with like the Victoria's Secret Direct Collections.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you remember the catalogs.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I always like this stuff is so sexy and I want to wear all of it.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um I was helping manage those samples, but then at the same time, it's when like the Victoria's Secret Angels were super popular.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: They'd always have um in-store events.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: So I'd get to go to the in-store events with them, and then that's also when they were doing a lot of like late-night um show circuit stuff.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like we'd go to like Jimmy Kimmel, we'd go to David Letterman, like all these things.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: So it was a really interesting role and a really nice way to kind of get um into the industry.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: I also had a really nice boss and a really great team.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: So, unlike a lot of the girls who started out, like I had a really nice um entry into the fashion world, if you will.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um from there, I still really missed editorials.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I knew that it was kind of just like a stop on this road that I wanted to go to.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: So, next, I really, really wanted to work for a magazine.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: And Essence magazine happened to be looking for someone like freelance, not even part-time, not even contract.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I took a really big risk and I left this like long-term contract position with Victoria's Secret and went to Essence, and it was only supposed to be two weeks, but like my goal was that I would convince these people that they needed to hire me full time.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: And the project itself was literally that they had a fashion closet and they fired their assistant and they needed to figure out where everything went.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: So, for those who don't know, in magazines um other than beauty, which is why I like beauty, everything's borrowed.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: So when you get a sample, it's literally what you see on the runway is what magazines and stylists and other people use.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: So everyone is sharing the same samples.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: So my yeah, so it's not like they're for some celebrity and custom things, it's like they're making them one off.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like, for example, like if Beyonce wanted something, they're making that for her.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: But for everyone else, they're sharing stuff.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I didn't know that.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so you have to return everything.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I guess this assistant just kind of left everything in a mess.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: And my job was to figure out where things went, send them back, make sure we didn't get billed or invoice.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and the tricky part is just because it was a designer, it didn't mean that it went to that designer house.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's like it could have came from a department store, it could have came from a boutique, like it was such a mess.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um my gosh.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's crazy.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: So then thankfully, like every two weeks, like right as my contract was about to end, they're like, Oh, can you stay another week?
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I did that until I finally got hired full-time to be, I think I was a fashion assistant at the time.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_02: That's also when I discovered just the beauty team.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: So the beauty team saw how organized I was with the fashion closet.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: So, of course, they were really keen to have me come and um organize their beauty samples.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: So, unlike fashion, the beauty team keeps everything.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: So, if you think it's a big store where they have to like figure out what's going to a shoot, but what's stuff that's going to be tested?
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: Do we need to call in duplicates?
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so equally it's not necessarily easier, it's just nice because they don't have to go back, but you still have to kind of figure out some process um to the madness.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: No, I mean, sounds like I love like the stories in the beauty world that started from like the ground up.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like because all of that knowledge and all of that, like um, you know, just what you're describing with like figuring out where to send things.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, did that probably exposes you to so much, right?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like you meet so many cool people along the way.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, absolutely.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the one thing about starting off from PR, which I really liked, is I kind of realize just the importance and the value of relationships.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: Because as a publicist, like your whole job is to keep up with people and see what's going on and know what they're working on.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: And then, you know, you're going to dinner with them and seeing them at events.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a little bit different than just being an editor where you know you can kind of like I guess not necessarily like ignore, but it's like your relationships are valuable, but it's a little bit different because with PR, your clients are relying on you and you need to have deliverables.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like you get that much more serious.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, how did you find the difference between the editorial world and PR?
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what is like because that must have been a shift, right?
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like that, that's like a huge, like, I don't know.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: I in my mind, I consider it to be so different.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: So did you struggle with that?
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like kind of like the shift, or um, was it kind of naturally it came naturally too?
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say I probably struggled with the shift my second PR job.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: So I went to Essence, I ended up leaving, taking a little bit of a break because I wanted to recalibrate, and then I went to this agency called HL Group, and they did um, they were just starting their beauty division.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: So I think our clients are like pooj fragrances, such as like Paco Raban, Nino Ricci, um Valentino.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_02: We had a plastic surgeon, and then we had Algerna's skincare.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I think for some reason in school, they teach you like, oh, as a publicist, you're doing so much writing.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's kind of just like editorial.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: There is a lot of writing in PR, but it's a little bit different in the sense of it's a lot of reporting, it's a lot of email crafting, it's a lot of pitch crafting.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: So it's definitely not as creative as like writing a story.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's like a interviewing people.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not really testing products.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: You do, I I will say that as a publicist, you definitely need, depending on how many accounts you have, you truly do need to be an expert on your um your brand.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like you should be similar to like a CEO or founder of the brand, like you should be really familiar and able to answer a lot of questions.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: So I definitely think there's that, there's a level of expertise, but your mind just works differently.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like it was a lot of like spreadsheets and decks and presentations, and I think it just wasn't what I expected.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: I thought that it was just gonna be, you know, me using my corporate card and taking my beauty friends out to dinner or like you know, like planning events, like people make PR seem like it's very like luxurious and easy, but it's really difficult.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I just remember those client calls and they're like, hey, like what's going on with you know, Teen Vogue?
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like, do they are we getting a placement or not?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: And if you don't have an answer, that's bad.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: So then it's like now once we get off this call, I need to talk to the editor and be like, hey, like what can we do here?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what more do you need from me?
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there's a lot of pressure that's put on publicist and just like PR and marketing and sales and all that, but particularly the publicity team really gets sometimes the short end of the stick.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: I've I've been I'm starting to see that.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, like when I when I talk to um people like yourself and you know, I hear about just how much goes behind like even getting into a magazine, you know, I'm sure that's a lot of work.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I fully, you know, I can't even, I couldn't even imagine.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm sure you're giving us like the nice abridged version of everything.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: So um, yeah, that's amazing.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to ask you about beauty um in general, Janelle, because I I love talking to women um with this perspective that you you've had the career in the beauty industry.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: You're you know, you're well accustomed, and I'm sure you've seen everything at this point, right?
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, so I always wonder like, how do you perceive beauty?
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: And like, what are some things you look for in like good products or things that you really want to get behind?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, that's like a really deep question.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um Yeah, I'm trying to make this very philosophical.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: So I'll say, I guess I'll start with this.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: The reason I love beauty and while I ultimately chose it over fashion is because I think although people claim they don't have preferences or they they're not quote unquote into it, we're all into it.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like even something as simple as like I only use dove soap or I only use Irish Spring or like I can't live without Vaseline, even if you're very much so a product minimalist, you definitely have preferences.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_02: I also think that it's in a constant state of evolution.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I love that there's like new like scientific developments and like people are thinking about ingredients in new ways.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot to consider.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, on the flip side, sometimes I feel like it is like really consumer driven, and I'm just like, how many more launches or how many more products do we need?
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: So that sometimes makes me feel a little bit guilty.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like I also don't want to pressure people into like purchasing things.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I do like it because beauty is something that's very individual, and it also is very problem solution oriented.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: So even if it's something as small as lipstick, there is something about it that it's like this was designed to make you feel better or to brighten, brighten up your day, or make you feel confident.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_02: And to me, it's just the fact that there's so many choices, and you don't necessarily have to fit into one box.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: You can definitely find something that works for you.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's just a customization part of beauty that I really do love.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I think also the exploratory nature of it all, like the discovery aspect.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: There's always something new to try or to research or to learn about.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what kind of keeps it exciting.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if I answered your question.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you did.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: No, you definitely did.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually have a follow-up question.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I I completely agree with you, and I think that that's an amazing point about the customization of all beauty because I think that's kind of um where skincare is headed.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, from what I'm seeing, all these brands um are doing this whole, you know, what's good for your skin.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: I know I had Dr.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: Dave Gun on and she was kind of diving into like all the different skin types, and you know, and it just makes me wonder like, you know, is the next step in skincare where everything is gonna become customized?
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, I think skin health is kind of gaining some momentum here, right?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like the the idea of healthy skin versus just the aesthetic appearance or aesthetic appeal of skincare.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, what do you think about that in in terms of skincare specifically?
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: That's also a hard question.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: I literally had a death side, I literally had a death side or a ritual death side about this.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I believe it, but I also think that's a really big undertaking because there's so much going on with people's skin, and ingredient-wise, there's a lot of things that ingredients can and cannot do.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't want to say I'm skeptical because I know it can happen.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's just I don't know how I don't know if people are touting it as completely customizable, but it's like you're really picking from like one of 24 formulas.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: Kind of like foundation.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like, yes, now we have like 40 plus shades, but that still doesn't cover the spectrum of all the skin tones out there, right?
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like someone at some point is going to have to mix or they're not going to find their exact shade.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_02: So the same thing with skincare, because I know, like, obviously, there's a lot of ways to like break it down, like it's like skin texture, skin tone, skin type, like skin issues.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: I know that through science we can figure it out.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_02: I don't just don't know how close we are to it.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, right, right.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: But with that said, you can get pretty close to a customized skincare routine through what's available already, but it's such an expensive exercise at the same time, right?
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: Like I always am so lucky that I get to try products all the time.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: I couldn't imagine that if all the stuff in my bathroom was things that I purchased, I'd be spending thousands of dollars hoping to get the equation right.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's also not fair for consumers.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm not sure.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I hope we get there.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know how soon we'll get there.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, I just I'd love to know more about like when people like this is completely customizable.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, but similar to like making your own fragrance, right?
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm really choosing different scents or notes and making it into something, but how many options are there really once you do the math?
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's a great point.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I love that you also brought up foundation in that conversation because um, you know, like I completely agree in the sense that um, you know, in terms of the formulation aspect of skincare, I think there are definitely some barriers right now, right?
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like in the chemistry um, you know, sector of things.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know either, but I'm I'm thinking because like I think people want that.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think people want that customized feeling, um, you know, in terms of like being really skincare junkies or nerds, like, you know, they really want that part where it's like, I know this is for my skin, I know it's gonna work for my skin.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I I'm also um wondering about the philosophy of sticking to one brand.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, because you brought up the great, wonderful point of um, you know, it's a very, very expensive venture to find your perfect skincare routine.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, I think, you know, it needs to be a little bit more accessible in the way that, you know, if a person can find a brand that they identify with instead of a product, maybe that brand can provide them everything they need in terms of just their daily routine.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, they don't have to go out looking for 18 different products, right?
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's like that's that's where I kind of um I initially asked you that because of that reason is that customization, I think um, you know, it might be important at this point.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for sure.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I even though I try a ton of stuff, I would consider myself more of a skincare minimalist in the sense of yes, I do try a lot of things, but at the same token, I try to use minimal things, if that makes sense.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: So for me, like when I wake up in the morning, my current routine is I wash my face.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, right now I think I'm using Ole Hendrickson, their like uh vitamin C face wash.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: Then I like to put on a toner.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, after on a serum, and I just started using cream again, and then I'll put on a moisturizer.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not like I'm using a ton of products and like occasionally I will swap things out, but for me, I always notice really like my skin is acting right or it looks the best when I'm just consistent with my routine.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: So, not to say like it doesn't matter what I use, like obviously it's like you know, you want something with a great formulation, but for me, like I'm not super picky about like price point, I'm more about like ingredient-based.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: So for me, like my skin reacts really, really well and looks really bright and clear when I use vitamin C.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: So that's something that I like to use.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes my skin gets a little dry.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like I try to incorporate like um a serum or a moisturizer with hyaluronic acid because I can kind of still get that dewy feeling, but um, or a look rather, but it's like my skin still feels hydrated.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not necessarily like I'm using this 14-step program.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: And some people might even be like, oh, five steps, that even seems like a lot for me, but it really only takes me like five minutes, maybe like maximum.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's not like this long-standing thing.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not occasionally I'll do a mask, like I have a ton at the house.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: I don't always use them.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so that's not something that I necessarily force people to use.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: I have skincare tools, so it's like I love my zip, but it's like I probably use that like maybe once or twice a week when I remember.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: So how is that?
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_02: I've never tried that um product.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_02: So obsessed.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: So it's hard because it's like again, it's like the science, the science of it all.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um essentially what it is, it's like it's kind of working out your face.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: So you think about muscles you use, muscles you don't use, and like just like if you started a fitness routine and you started like lifting weights, you might see some tone and definition in your arms.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I feel the same thing when I use my zip.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's like muscles that I'm not using, so it's like kind of contouring like my jawline and you know, making sure that because we're locked inside now, like I'm not necessarily getting like Botox quarterly.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like making sure that my frown lines are not my frown lines or my forehead lines aren't as pronounced.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_02: So it does make a difference in the sense of once you use it, you kind of see like an instant rejuvenation.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: I think again, like there's a whole question around like the science.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like, are there long-term effects from using this?
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: Because it is nanocurrent.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like, what does that mean for my skin long term?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, is it enhanced if you use certain beauty products?
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like, should I be using certain ingredients?
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, so maybe if I pair it with after I use my retinol, like that might increase the effect.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: So there's always like pros and cons of things, but I think just from like uh an enjoyment standpoint, it's like really fun.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's just nice.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm also not a big facial person, which people are always really surprised by.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: So for me, I was gonna say I don't know if there's something about like the extractions are always really painful for me.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm also like, I don't know if it's like great that someone's like pressing on my skin and trying to get something out.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: And then like the weird thing about the steam, like I know some people don't use steam, but like the steam from the towel, and also like the steam if they use a steamer makes me feel a little bit claustrophobic.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm always like, no, thanks.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: And like people are like, really?
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: If you don't want this facial, I'm like, not really.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's not something I do frequently.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like maybe I get like two facials a year.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm very wow, weary.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: It just makes me like well, no, I don't blame you because I think there's also this um like personalized, it's like your personal time with skincare and skin health.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's an aspect um there as well, right?
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a personal thing we do every day for ourselves, or you know, it's like the way we want it done to our face, right?
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like uh you're kind of handing off that control to somebody when you go in for facial.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, I can I can totally see that.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's not too crazy or anything.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I I want to know, um, actually, I want to know about your well, you kind of went into your favorite products, but how do you um go about like testing?
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like, do you stick to something for like I, you know, I don't know, like four weeks or something before you decide, you know what, I love this, or is it more of like instantly like, oh, this works for me?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna use this.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: How is that whole process for you?
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think it's different for everybody in terms of skincare.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: That's a really good question.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I would say a little bit of a mix of both.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I think there's certain things that as soon as I apply it onto my skin, or even like makeup wise, I'm like, this is not for me.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm like, I don't like this.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what I try to do is I try to only test one new thing at a time.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: So, kind of like how I mentioned, like my skin routine is pretty set.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: So let's say I'm like, okay, this week I want to try a new serum.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna keep everything else.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's almost like um, what's the thing?
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like when you have like constants and variables, like I try to only use like one variable at a time.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: So then if I do have a reaction or something does go awry, I can quickly pinpoint, like, okay, it was that new thing you use versus if I started using like five new things, I have no idea where to start.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm like, was it my moisturizer?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, was it the face wash?
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: Was it like I use it gets too confusing?
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I usually try to swap out one thing at a time.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: If I really like something, I'll use it until the end.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm like very like, let's finish this until the drawer is done.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: I would say that I try to give things like technically for skincare, you really do need time.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: So most people say, like, I think between like 20 to 40 days, it's like a really long timeline.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think it's like just the rate that we write stories and like create content, sometimes that's not always possible.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'd say I can tell if I'm gonna like something in the first week.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: And if I really like something, it's like I'll just keep using it.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: So there's certain products like um off top, but I still Really love Vintner's Daughters Serum.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's something I've been using for years.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't necessarily use it every day, but it's something that I keep in rotation that it's like always in my bathroom.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: So if I'm like, oh, my skin is dry or I feel like it's freaking out, that's there.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm a really big fan, like body-wise, of bio oil, which people are so shocked.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: I love bio oil, I love the way it smells, I love the consistency.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's like perfect for summer in the sense of like I need to stay moisturized so my skin doesn't look dry, but it doesn't make me feel like hot.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um hair-wise, I'm trying to think of what I've consistently used.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: I don't have it, but Carol's daughter had a really nice kind of like almost a pomade type product, and it smells lightly of oranges, and the name is escaping me right now.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: But that's just something that it's like I know if my hair is dry and I need to revive it, it's really great.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Amika makes a really good cleansing conditioner.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like there's just certain things that I always know I'll use, and because it's like I'm so in love with them, I'm like, I don't really want to try something new to swap them out.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: So right, right.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's like your favorites.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like you know it works, you know how it works, and you want to keep it.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's also a part of uh skincare and self-care.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, you know, building that relationship with a brand and a product and really kind of trusting it.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's a huge trust um component, right?
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that brands have to, I think, focus on that.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really kind of my goal at Skincare Anarchies when I interview brands.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, you know, can you tell us about your background and your vision?
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: Because I don't think it's enough to just come out with a product and just be like, well, this looks pretty on a shelf.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like you should know why the brand was created.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: What was the thought process and like the, you know what I mean?
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like the real the meat and potatoes of you know, what went behind it.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that helps people form that relationship and you know, keep coming back to that product and keep coming back to that brand in general.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, it's just it's more important.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: And that's something I noticed as a consumer.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: Is like I would be buying things and then I'd be like, Well, I don't even know why this came out.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, like what went behind this?
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, um, that's interesting that you you brought that up and your favorites.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for sharing those.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure um you gave some great tips to people listening because I know I'm always looking for good stuff.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: So um, but yeah, um, I want to just, you know, kind of close off by talking about um, you know, since you're also a woman of color, I mean, I think this is a conversation that I really um want to have with people um because we're it I think things are shifting right now in terms of the whole inclusivity conversation.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: So um what are your thoughts behind that?
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, really um what do you think about every brand striving for this like one benchmark um, you know, goal?
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like, do you think it's it's logical?
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: Or I mean, really, how do you feel about it?
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: So many thoughts.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um I guess to start, I think what a lot of people didn't realize, and I'm not quite sure why, is that this is a long-standing issue that stems from top to bottom.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the biggest thing that people can have impact in is hiring people of color.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know why it's still a conversation, because it just seems like such an easy fix, but it's really hiring people of color at every single level, and I can't emphasize that enough.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's hiring assistants of color, it's hiring middle management, it's hiring VPs, it's hiring SEO or CEOs, not SEO.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_02: That's my mind is on work.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um I knew what you meant.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and because if not, like let's just give an example of an assistant.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: An assistant of color gets a job.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: Amazing.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_02: They need to be promoted throughout the system, so then they will also utilize their network to get more people who look like them in the company, in the building, in these seats.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think a lot of times people think that, oh, we hired someone important at the top, but it does not affect or influence the rest of the work environment, nor does it influence the content or the products or anything like that.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_02: It has to be something that's felt throughout.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think with all the things that were going on, particularly in the US, um, there was a very big jump to get like diverse and inclusive content.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_02: But unfortunately, the way people did that was they'd hire freelancers like me, which is nice, but it's also like you're hiring freelancers because you guys don't have anyone internally who can have these conversations or write about these articles.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: I also think it's pushing um everyone, regardless of your background or ethnicity, to care about these issues.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's just like you've probably heard so many editors of color talk about this.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I have to know everything.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I have to know everything that's going on from like what is Charlize Thuron doing with her hair to like, you know, what are the like Japanese beauty trends to like what are we doing with their natural hair?
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I think for a really long time, a segment, particularly of like beauty editors or beauty brands, could ignore it.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: They're just like, oh, that's not my life.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: I don't understand.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, Yeah, I don't really care what Britney Spears is doing either, but it's part of my job, you know what I mean?
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's all encompassing in the fact of like everyone kind of has to hold hands and get on board.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: So that's whether you're doing a roundup, you need to make sure that you're including brands of color with founders.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's like when you're thinking about experts, it's thinking outside the box.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_02: Because, truth be told, that's something I've always done.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like you can look back to any of my articles.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's like it's always a diverse and inclusive roundup of experts, products, tips, people, imagery.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's it wasn't even a second thought because I knew that that's what the world looks like.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I needed to make sure that if someone landed in my article, they always felt seen, they didn't feel um excluded.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: And if something was specific or niche, I wanted to provide them with the information that, you know, they would feel empowered and the like, okay, the person who wrote this gets me.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: I also think, you know, you don't want to do diverse things for the sake of them, and then like they almost seem like a backhanded compliment, or it seems really um what's the word?
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like just not like smartly thought out in the sense of you're almost talking down to this group of people, like they don't know what to do with their hair.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like cheeky, like being very cheeky.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I think that's like those are my initial thoughts, but I really think it's it's back to hiring practices and also, you know, challenging things that you see are going on.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's been a lot of times in my career where I've had to speak up or speak out, and I didn't really feel like anyone had my back.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, it's like if you see something going on that doesn't feel great, it's like support your your colleagues of color and like make sure that you know things are changing.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_02: And like even if you're in a meeting and there's no one around you that looks different from you, it's like making sure you flag that too.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like, hey guys, like we're having this whole conversation about natural hair, but no one in this room has natural hair, like right, yes, that's a great point.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's always weird to be like you guys launch this product, so even with beauty brands, it's like they'll present these concepts or ideas, and I'll go on like meet with the founder, and I'm like, Where is everyone else?
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, so you decided to launch a natural hair care line?
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: Amazing, and I like that you saw a problem, but this also isn't something you can talk to in a real or authentic way, so that also makes it fall flat to me.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, and I also like I love that you brought up the idea from the get-go, why is this still a conversation?
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I am completely on board with that because I don't understand why we are still struggling with hiring people of color in the beauty industry when we are targeting literally multicultural markets.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: So that makes no freaking sense.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a huge oxymoron.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, and not only that, but generally, you know what makes me mad is when I see that, like, okay, a brand or a place they they hired like X, you know, amount of colored people, and then they want to make a freaking show of it.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, why do we have to do that?
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: Why can't you just make this a normal thing?
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's a you know what I mean, just like a normal behind the scenes thing that everybody understands in your company and you're making real change.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: You don't need to go out there and put a flyer up about, oh, well, we hired this person and they're of this skin type, like or skin color.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like it that that's not the point.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's not the the point isn't to make a show of it, the point is to make real change.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I I completely agree with you.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: You're you know, people are talking now about things like what you just brought up, the hair, or you know, for me, it's it's my culture, you know, in Indian culture, like there are so many products, you know, that date back centuries and brands are just using them, and you know, that's wonderful, that's beautiful, and I'm glad that my culture is coming forward.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: But um, how many Indian people do you have on your uh formulation board or like committee?
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I'm saying?
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I just want to know, and it's probably gonna be zero, right?
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's like it makes no sense.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I'm sorry, I got really fired up, but like I get it.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I get it.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's challenging because I think um I just wrote a piece about like my year in review for the cover tour.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_02: And like one of the things I was thinking about is like, yes, like knock on wood, I was very blessed to have a successful freelance year, but part of that was because everyone felt guilty or everyone felt like they needed to come up with a solution because they didn't have diverse hires.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there's also a level of privilege where editors who are not of color would reach out to me and be like, hey, oh my gosh, we have an assignment.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: I've been thinking, I'm so happy you reached out to me, like X, Y, and Z.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: But it's like, but I've been reaching out to you.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like I also, again, can write about anything.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like I just don't have to write about like black women hair or like you know, black beauty or like what it's like to be a black woman in the industry.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: There's so many other things, there's a multitude of things I can um write about.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, and I'd love to be considered for them.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_02: So sometimes I'm down to like, you know, hey, thank you so much for thinking about me, but like this isn't a topic I want to cover.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I've also covered this topic numerous times, like, keep me imposted for other opportunities that come across your desk for assignments.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I felt like if you talk to people during that time, a lot of my friends, like black editors, felt really drained.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, it's like they're like now, it's like all of a sudden I'm like the voice of all things black, and yeah, I have to do work.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's so dumb.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, why do you need like it's like okay, yes, there's a lot more that black, you know, women and men in the editorial world can contribute than just talking about black hair or black related, you know, foundation.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's like it's there's so this the talent, right?
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's like really the question of are you gonna recognize talent or are you still gonna recognize skin color?
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really where I get very, very angry and frustrated because I see this in the medical community all the time.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, I think in the beauty industry, it really needs um, someone needs to edit here.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like there needs to be an edit, please, because it's unfair.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I I've met so many, I always make this point um in my in my area, you know, where some of the most brilliant minds in medicine have been from like Nigeria, and I can't tell you why.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: I have no idea why, but they are brilliant.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: And to limit them, you know, I'm just trying to make an analogy.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: If I were to limit a Nigerian doctor for only operating on, hey, you know, only operate on people of color or only do this.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's like not only limiting them as a as a professional, but as a person, because you're saying that all you're interested in is your own skin type when it's like the exact opposite.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's like, you know, why why are you creating that almost glass ceiling for them right there, you know, in that moment?
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: I I feel very, very passionately about this, and I think you brought up some amazing points.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I could honestly do a series about this with you.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: But um, what's that?
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: I said there's a lot to dive into for sure.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there is, there really is.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, I always make this point.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and I I want to share it with you because it's very close to my heart.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: When I first came to this country, the first friends that I had were uh, you know, black young women, they embraced me, nobody else was talking to me, and I can't ever let that go.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's like I felt like my cult my culture was more accepted in their culture.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I'm trying to say?
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: And that has stuck with me my whole life.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I when I sit there and I and I don't see that equality being shared back to all of the communities of people of color, it's like I don't understand like why this is so difficult.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like for the world, like why?
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's a common sense to us, you know.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: We sit here and think about it.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: So why isn't it common sense to everybody else?
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's just yeah.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: Anyways, I'm gonna stop ranting.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: But thank you so much, Janelle.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you're amazing, and I love I love everything we talked about.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I would love to have you back if you have the time in your schedule.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, I'd love to post it.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: We can definitely chat in 2021 and kind of do a check-in and hopefully there's some changes that have been made.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would love to do that.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, everyone listening out there, please, please leave some uh comments and if you have questions for Janelle, please leave them.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'll pass them along to her and um hopefully she has the time and she can answer the back.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: But uh thank you for listening and please don't forget to follow us on um Spotify, iTunes, or Google Podcasts.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: Janelle, do you have um your own personal Instagram that you can shout out your handle so everybody can go follow you as well?
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I am at J Margaret Beauty.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: So everybody please go follow Janelle um and you know keep us posted on what you guys think about the episode.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 36:01
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• 36:04
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• 36:08
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• 37:03
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• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.