Latest / Through the Sh#t with Jen McDowell / When Sh#t Strikes Twice | Monika Demel and Matthew Sommerfeldt
Transcript
- speaker-0: I think also that sometimes the shit that we go through, ⁓ well not sometimes, always, it changes us. But sometimes it changes us in unexpected ways. ⁓ It kind of shows us who we are at the core. It will kind of sometimes bring us to the end of who we thought we were. speaker-2: Yeah, that's a really common theme is that, you you find this new version of yourself that you didn't know you had. ⁓ Maybe at the outset, you didn't want to know that you had, ⁓ but through the experience, you come to be grateful for knowing this new version of yourself. speaker-1: Yeah, your priorities definitely change. speaker-2: Welcome, I'm Jenn McDowell and you're listening to Through the Shit, a podcast for anyone going through the shit and the people who love them. In every episode, we'll hear a new story of loss, hope and resilience and how going through the shit led to something greater. So if you're in the shit now and feeling lost or alone, disconnected from your bad-ass self or in need of an ember of hope to keep putting one foot in front of the other, you're in the right place. So settle in, prepare to be moved and inspired and welcome to the shit. Welcome, everybody. You're listening to Through the Shit. I'm your host, Jenn McDowell, and joining me today are a pair of guests. This is my first pair interview I'm very excited about. I have Matthew Sommerfeldt and Monica Dehmel with me, and they're going to be talking about an unexpected health scare twice that taught them how to stay true to their own selves and to build connection in difficult times. So Monica and Matthew, welcome. I'm really glad to have you here today. Yes. speaker-0: Thanks for having us. speaker-2: Yeah, thank you. ⁓ So let's tell everybody how it is that you came to be here. So I met Monica five years ago. It was probably five years ago about this time ⁓ when I was starting my business and I needed to have branding photos done. so ⁓ Monica had taken photos for someone else that is a mutual connection. And at the time, Monica, you were doing the showcase on 40 women over 40 and trying to sort of ⁓ photograph them. I don't know. What was the nature of the project? speaker-0: That's right. It was giving women over 40, just showing the younger generation how women over 40 have so much more to contribute than they think. Because I think the younger generation at that time, you know, at the time that I started the project, I was thinking, I want them to see how much more powerful women are as they age and that we have so much more to contribute, that life doesn't end at 40, it just truly begins. speaker-2: Totally. And we were talking about this before we even started the recording. I'm midway through my 40s now, and ⁓ my life has changed so dramatically since that time that I was in your studio that I just cannot even wrap my head around it. But I'm really looking forward to seeing what the last half of my 40s bring. So that's how I met Monica. I still use her photos today because they are so fucking amazing. ⁓ When I started the podcast, Monica was someone who had reached out and said, is amazing, congratulations, and I've got a story for you. ⁓ And so Monica told me a little bit about her story. And then I was asking questions about, well, how has this experience been for your husband, Matthew? And then it kind of built from there that we were going to do this as a paired interview. so that you could each talk about your own experience of navigating this really difficult health scare. ⁓ So again, I'm really excited to have you both here. Matthew, thank you for coming along on the ride with us and being a participant. speaker-1: Yeah, you're welcome. speaker-2: You're welcome for now, right? Wait till we see what we get into. So Monica, as I mentioned, is an amazing photographer, globally award-winning. Her work has been all over the planet, including in The Louvre, ⁓ in Oprah's newsletter, and also on a Times Square billboard. So your work has been all over the globe. And Matthew, you are currently a director of physical infrastructure for an IT consulting firm, and you've been doing that for about eight years. And before that, you installed the systems and managed the mass notification for critical infrastructure, such as military and utilities. So you've got a very technical background as well. speaker-1: Okay. speaker-2: Yeah, okay. So ⁓ I don't know who to pose this question to. So let's start with this idea of through the shit. know, the podcast listeners at this point in time have heard me talk about what my shit has been like, what my experience was like, and what that term means to me. And so Monica, maybe let's start with you. What does the term going through the shit mean to you as it relates to your experience in your story? speaker-0: think it just means, you know, when you're going through a hard time, you're dealing with something unexpected maybe and dealing with something ⁓ that you think is really hard. speaker-2: Yeah, so it's unexpected, it catches you off guard. Matthew, is there anything else that comes to mind for you as you think about this? speaker-1: Well, when we go through something like something hard, something that you're not aware, you know, you're not thinking of, and all of a sudden something pops in, your first thought is kind of like, have no control over this. with that said, you have a lot of control over what goes on, and you have to step back and think about it. speaker-2: Yeah, I talk a lot with clients about that. They come into a situation and they're really struggling with some difficult news or some big change that's happening in their life that maybe they didn't choose. And it makes them oftentimes feel helpless and hopeless. And they're fighting this fight that they didn't ever really want to fight. And that leads to feelings of helplessness and not having control. And so if we can slow down the conversation enough to think about what it is that you can control, it can be a really important and powerful way to navigate going through something that is otherwise really difficult and unexpected. So we've got this idea of it's unexpected, but it maybe also is an opportunity to shape how you go through the experience. And I think, Monica, as you and I have been talking about this experience, that was really critical to your story of reclaiming control. speaker-0: always say that it's not what happens to us, but how we choose to respond in the ways that we choose to respond. What can come from what we went through is how I tend to look at everything through that lens. speaker-2: Yeah, so it's unexpected. It's an opportunity. Anything else that is relevant for this idea of going through this shit before we get into your story. speaker-0: I think also that sometimes the shit that we go through, ⁓ well not sometimes, always, it changes us. But sometimes it changes us in unexpected ways. ⁓ It kind of shows us who we are at the core. It will kind of sometimes bring us to the end of who we thought we were. speaker-2: Yeah, that's a really common theme is that, you you find this new version of yourself that you didn't know you had. ⁓ Maybe at the outset, you didn't want to know that you had, ⁓ but through the experience, you come to be grateful for knowing this new version of yourself. speaker-1: Yeah, your priorities definitely change. speaker-2: ⁓ totally. Yeah. Okay. All right. ⁓ You ready to get into it? Okay. Monica, tell me your shit. speaker-0: Yeah. Well, so I am going to spend a little time on ⁓ both things just because one leads to the other. So hopefully that makes sense. But ⁓ I had ⁓ just a wonderful, amazing month in Italy, just some of it with my husband and some of it working. And it was just absolutely a dream come true. And I got home, you know, feeling on top of the world. It was time to do my mammogram. It was time to get my mammogram. Yeah, it was great. know, like time to get your mammogram. Yay. ⁓ So that year we had moved to a new house and we moved to a new neighborhood that I didn't know. So we had ⁓ all new doctors and also hospital. Everything was new. I didn't know anybody, nothing, you know. No recommendations, just kind of decided to go get my mammogram done. And, you know, no big deal. And then they called me back and they said, oh, we want to see some more imaging. And I said, oh, okay. You know, I said, I have an old, you know, disc with some imaging. You know, do you want that for context? They said, sure, we want to see that. So I said, okay. So I went and got some more imaging. And right as they were done with the imaging, they said to me, you know, ⁓ we wanted to see you because we saw some things, probably nothing, but we want to do a biopsy ⁓ on this. And I'm like, biopsy?" And they said, yeah, it's probably nothing. We just want to do a biopsy, make sure it's nothing. And then I was like, a biopsy? And I just could not stop saying that word. I was like, what? then ⁓ so I said, okay. And then I scheduled this biopsy. ⁓ And it was like, happened to be like the week before Christmas. And then as they were doing this ultrasound guided biopsy, I was talking to the person doing that and saying, know, ⁓ hey, so I've never been here before, how long have you been doing this? And then kind of just trying to get a sense of like, who are these people? Because like all of a sudden now my health is in somebody else's hands that I really don't know anything about. And then I just asked her about... the person that was reading the results, you how long have they been doing that? And she's like, ⁓ they're the head of the, that's going to be the head of the department. They've been doing this a very long time. So I felt better. So this person ⁓ came in and I said, look, ⁓ just give it to me straight. The person that was going to be reading the biopsy results. said, give it to me straight. ⁓ It's right before Christmas. I don't have a ⁓ GP, general practitioner. Can you please, would you mind calling me with the results? I'd like to know the results directly from you. I can't wait. Please call me. So ⁓ then I go about my life and then like literally a couple days before Christmas, ⁓ he called and said, hey, I just want to let you know you have breast cancer. So I was like, okay, thank you so much for calling me. I really appreciate that. And then I said, I don't know what the next steps are at all. And then he said, well, someone will be in touch from the hospital to set up the next steps with you. And I said, okay. So then it's right before Christmas and I cannot, I was not going to ruin it ⁓ with my family or anything. Of course, my husband knew the results. but ⁓ I absolutely didn't want anyone else to know. And then I remember being at Costco with my mom and she had to run to the restroom and as she ran to the restroom, I got a call from the nurse and she said, ⁓ we are trying to schedule your surgery and which doctor do you want to do it? And I'm like, well, who do you recommend? Cause again, I don't know anyone. And then she ⁓ said, I ⁓ have this name or this name. I said, I don't know anybody. So I'm on my phone at Costco looking him up as weird as my mom is in the restroom because, you know, and then I, I, I was like, I think, I think I want this guy. And then she's like, ⁓ he's great. And then, ⁓ I don't know. just felt, I felt such a good feeling when I, when I read his bio real quick. And I cannot tell you how absolutely divine that was. know it's. crazy, but like it was the absolute perfect person for me. And I still say that today, it was the absolute perfect person, the most amazing surgeon. I got lucky. There, there it is. That was amazing. speaker-2: Monica, hearing that story, I mean, I feel like is every woman's worst nightmare, right? You have breast cancer. And I imagine sort of if that were to happen with me, it would be like this boom, right? This thing ⁓ that becomes sort of like the before and after mark. And so, Matthew, you get presumably a phone call from Monica saying, OK, the results aren't good. What was that experience like for you? What do you remember? speaker-1: I remember thinking back when I had my cancer and the fact that she has to find somebody that she has to feel comfortable, whoever's going to help her out through the surgery and everything, because I could not tell her what to do because that would just put more stress on her. You know, back in this, I had my cancer in my thirties, so like 30 some years ago, but, ⁓ I just needed to be supportive. And, ⁓ as far as, ⁓ my other thoughts were. I gotta get down and pray about this. I gotta continue to pray about this because God has seen us through so many other things. ⁓ Yeah, it's a... It was... For a while there... thinking, because cancer to me, you almost always seem like you have cancer. always, mean, even today, when someone, when I get ill or whatever, I'm thinking, okay, did the cancer come back? And so I'm, I was just thinking I have to be supportive. I have to ⁓ come alongside her, but I definitely not tell her what to do. that these decisions really had to be her decisions. speaker-0: So I want to say two quick things here. One of them is that the way that I deal with a very high stress situation is maybe different than most people. Like I don't deal with it right away. I'm not a panicker. I will process information. It's a delayed processing. So in the moment, I am dealing with the factual information, but processing that information hits later. Everything's fine. You know, I had to deal with Christmas. That was the deal. Like I had to deal with Christmas. Nobody needed to, ⁓ you know, do anything. I have also not had anyone in my immediate family with breast cancer. So I didn't really have any kind of experience. I knew nothing about breast cancer. I knew nothing about anything. Zero. information. And ⁓ all of my appointments with my doctors, my surgeons, were going to be after the holidays. I had literally, I could not deal with any of that until the holidays were over. There was no... But believe me, it was there. speaker-2: ⁓ I'm sure. And what you've described is sort of the approach that I take too, right? I'm automatically going into survival mode and just like this, this has got to get done, this has got to get done, this has got to get done, right? Let's get through the holidays, let's get through this, let's get through the surgery, let's get answers, right? And then there's a time and place when I fall apart. ⁓ speaker-0: Yes, exactly. speaker-2: But I want to just sort of put a pin in, what you talked about is sort of having this recognition that you can't put pressure on her, which is a really hard thing for people to go through or to do when their loved one is going through something hard, right? Because you get scared and you get worried and you love them and you want them to hang around and be with you. And sort of that worry comes out in advice or direction or pressure or whatever. And so the fact that sort of from day one, you knew what your role was going to be, I think is quite remarkable because these types of really hard circumstances can drive a wedge in relationships. And so the fact that you kind of had that from day one, I think is an important point to note that we'll probably circle back to. Okay, so let's fast forward. So you've gotten the news. Both of you are kind of in, you know, Matthew's in supportive mode, Monica, you're in decision-making mode, you get through the holidays, you have the surgery. Tell me just briefly a little bit more about that experience, because you've said twice. So let's talk about that first experience a little bit more. speaker-0: Well, I think we need to go right, little right before the surgery. So my surgery was scheduled at the end of January. And of course, January, I had a huge, it's like, so I'm a photographer, but I was also one of the top, think, I don't know if it's 3 % or something of photographers in the world. And I got awarded, I was awarded, I had a big award ceremony. There was an award and I had to go travel to Nashville for this award. It was a huge gala to recognize all of these photographers, not just me, but all of these photographers. also there was ⁓ also an international photography conference the same week in Nashville. I getting, I had to get ready for this gala and then there was a conference and then I was heading home and then I was having this surgery. So I get to Nashville and then like, you know, I have to get ready for this gala. And I'm trying to be like not, but it's like the cancer thing is there in my head and I'm like trying, I'm trying to live my life, but I'm also freaking out with everything that I'm doing. I'm freaking out like, ⁓ you know, how is this going to work? I can't tell anyone I have breast cancer. Okay, moving on. Then we have the conference. then ⁓ also in the middle of the conference, I get a phone call ⁓ saying that my insurance isn't going to approve interoperative radiation, which was a big thing that I was supposed to have. And then I just lose my shit and start having a moment of like an absolute breakdown. I'm like, I cannot get my shit together in the middle of the conference. So that was super fun. And I just couldn't stop. I could not stop crying in the middle of the conference. then luckily I had a really good roommates, people around me really supportive and they kind of glued me back together for that week. And then I had to get myself home and get to the surgery. Luckily, the surgeon that I had chosen was totally, completely an anomaly. I can't even explain it. He literally talked to me in pictures. He showed me like my options and he said, can go this way, this way, this way, which option do you think is the best that you'd want? And then he allowed me to be totally kind of in charge of how I wanted it to go, which I... since have heard that's like nobody does that. And he also said something to me, which I will never forget as long as I live. He said, here is my cell phone number and you can feel free to call me anytime for any reason. thought like, I was just like, who is this guy? So he was the head of oncology at the hospital. He was absolutely extra, he is extraordinary. Like this is not the norm. I understand that, but in my case, I could not have. chosen better. ⁓ And then he did the surgery. It was amazing. The surgery, there was hardly any scarring at all. I mean, like you didn't even know I had surgery. It was great. Like I didn't even, I felt great. It was, it was fine. I was home the next day. was, mean, not the next day. I was home in a couple of hours, like, right? That first surgery, like I was home, like they did the surgery. I was home like in a couple of hours. It was, we went to Chick-fil-A. I mean, we had, you know, it was fine. You know, I mean, Yeah, it was fine. And then like, and I think after that, like, I started to process. I started processing because I was supposed to go for radiation, but I was like holding off on the radiation, holding off on the radiation. Just didn't want to go to the radiation. ⁓ Decided to go with a naturopathic doctor. I chose, instead of radiation, I chose ⁓ signetera, which is a... They come to your house once a month and do a blood test and they tell you if you have the same kind of cancer, if the cancer is there or not. So I did the signetera, I did other holistic treatments and I kind of like go, eased my way out of the radiation. So then I kept having pain. I kept having pain in that area for... the next year and a half and was told that it was no big deal. It was normal. That's how it happens. Your scar tissue, all this stuff that I was told. ⁓ Additionally, I at that point, like after I said I don't want to go to a patient, I started researching breast cancer. I started reading about it, a lot of it. And then I started this breast cancer project, which was the Brave Pink Warrior project, where I photographed women who had gone through the breast cancer journey and they were like maybe 10 years or five, 10 years out from their journey to photograph them. and to give hope to women who are currently in treatment to show women that, you can relate to this type of... Because each breast cancer is a different type of breast cancer, which I never knew. I thought they were all the same, like cancer is like cancer. get colon cancer, you get pop, you know, but it's not the case for breast cancer. You have like, for example, triple negative, which is extremely aggressive. You have triple positive. You can have this kind, you can have this kind, you can have this... You know, it's so different. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. So I wanted women to find out, I wanted the stats to be under each woman's photo and I wanted the women in the radiation and oncology waiting rooms to see that and say, ⁓ this is the kind that I have. ⁓ this person has been, ⁓ you know, she's doing really well at 10 years after treatment. So I wanted them to relate and I wanted it to be something positive and something good. And then I got to hear from these survivors about their journey and it kind of... helped me understand ⁓ that actually, know this may sound trivial, but actually my cancer was no big deal compared to some other people. Like, this is okay, I don't have young children at home. Everything's kind of like put it in perspective, like, hey, this was not that big of a deal. It could have been worse in so many ways for me. So ⁓ that's what I learned the first go round. speaker-2: So, okay, so Monica, wow. ⁓ Thank you for sharing that story. ⁓ You know, it sounds like at least out of this early phase, there are some really fortuitous things that happened in terms of picking at random in Costco, the right doctor who would partner with you, who would empower you to make choices that felt right for your care. And you chose this conservative approach to the treatment going with more holistic, approaches as opposed to the radiation. And you had Matthew's support through this whole process, knowing that his role was to walk beside you rather than pressure you in any particular way. ⁓ But you've alluded to this idea of twice now. So I'm kind of curious, where does the twice come into the picture? speaker-0: Yes. ⁓ The joy is of never being over. ⁓ So after the Brave Pink Warrior project started and I was photographing these women for probably a good year or so, I had another false alarm. At the same time, ⁓ somebody was telling me, hey, do you know that there is a class action lawsuit going on for this? ⁓ marker that they implant after surgery where the radiation is going to go, which is the exact same marker that I had because ⁓ I thought I was going to do radiation, but then just chose not to at the first time around. So I said, no, I didn't know that. And then when I read the information about the, that's called the biosorb marker, I can say that because clearly it's, you know, it's out there. ⁓ They said that when I read the symptoms, they were all my symptoms pretty much. There were a lot of them were my symptoms. So then I had to go see my doctor and confirm that was what I had. And then we had decided that we were going to remove this. It has to be removed. I wanted it removed. I wanted it gone out of my body. So we had already determined that that was going to happen. And then a few months later, I had another time for an amygram. So I had my amygram again, and then they said, hey. ⁓ something is not good. You, ⁓ you have breast cancer again. And I'm like, no fricking way. Are you serious right now? Because I didn't have radiation, the scar tissue wasn't there. So they were able to do another lumpectomy, but because I had such very large girls, ⁓ they were going to do a reduction and then I needed, ⁓ a plastic surgeon to do that because they're going to take out such a big chunk that I needed ⁓ it to be kind of. the same on both sides. the plastic surgeon was ⁓ hired and then we proceeded to do the surgery in July of ⁓ last year and it was a really big surgery. ⁓ Much bigger than I anticipated, I guess. But they still let me out the same day and I still went home. And ⁓ the healing process from that was rough. And then of course, ⁓ nobody talks about the fact that you do have to have, you absolutely need, do not forget this little trick that you have to have physical therapy. You have to, must make plans for physical therapy. This is a big thing that nobody talks about. Physical therapy is like a life saving. You need it. You got to have it, do it, make the plans, talk about it. I don't know why they don't tell you this at the doctor's office. So I had a lot of physical therapy. And then I had to have... Makes me sick just thinking about this a month a month long radiation. So every day for a month every day for 30 days I had radiation well not 30 days because you had the weekends off so every day I had to go in and have radiation and It's a cumulative in your body. So that means that like at first it's fine You're fine. Everything's fine, and then it's not fine and then you're getting worse and after you're done with treatment You're still cooking for a while and you really never the same again and that's the truth of it. And then Yeah, and I continued to work. I was working every day and I was continuing to have my radiation and then just continuing to just... Yeah. And then, yeah, so the Biosorb came out, the surgery was successful. And ⁓ then, of course, there's the five years of the hormone blocking drugs they put you on, which is called Damaxapin or whatever somebody else has. So ⁓ that was kind of like my second journey story. speaker-2: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that again. I've heard the story before, but I think it just weighs on me every time I hear it. Because I think as someone who's had to go back in for follow-up screening after a mammogram, it feels like just waiting for the other shoe to drop. And so you've had really this roller coaster experience of getting the news the first time right before Christmas. ⁓ You know, going through, you know, trying to make the choice that you felt like was right for you. ⁓ Having all this pain, finding out it's related to the marker, ⁓ getting that removed, feeling better, and then finding yourself back down again, right? With the news again. And so I think, Matthew, let me switch to you now and ask you what was that experience like going through the roller coaster? ⁓ with Monica and watching her receive this news time and again that it wasn't good news. speaker-1: guess I'm a little bit different than she is now on treatment. She didn't want me to come with her, which was fine. ⁓ But I had to realize that we had to do it her way because ⁓ I didn't want to make any more pressure on her or anything. And so it was kind of tough seeing this whole thing and it still is because ⁓ healing is still happening. And yeah, it was just a whirlwind because ⁓ neither one of us was expecting this, so the second time for sure. speaker-2: And Matthew, you had touched on this a bit ago about sort of this idea of living in fear for yourself having been a cancer survivor. ⁓ And now Monica, you've been through cancer twice. And I think the question really becomes, how do you move forward and not continually live in fear every time you fall sick? Every time... you get a pain in your breast. Every time something feels off, right? How do you stay out of that fear mode and catastrophizing the sky is falling. speaker-0: You ever hear the phrase, you know, you're scared out of your mind, but you do it anyway? speaker-2: Yeah. speaker-0: Because you're never gonna be free from the fear. I mean, I don't know, some people may be, but in my case, you know, I'm kind of more, I'm a realistic person. Like, you're always thinking about it. It's always there. Now, like, now it's, I hate to say it like this, but it's kind of like game over for the person that I was before, game over. Like, you're never gonna be, I'll never be the same person that I was before. And I mean, I think the thing that needs to be said here is that, you know, in my view, cancer is not something to fight. Cancer is something to heal. And it's your body's way of saying something is wrong and we need to fix this. I I think the body is a miracle and it's absolutely amazing the amount of ⁓ things the body can, you know, can take care of. speaker-2: Yeah. Matthew, I'm curious, you know, hearing Monica say that cancer is something to heal, cancer is a sign that something wrong. ⁓ What is your perspective as a cancer survivor yourself? speaker-1: As a cancer survivor, as I was saying earlier, that your perspective changes, your whole idea of life kind of changes. And ⁓ for me, I realize that I'm a Christian and for me, I hand this all over to God every time I start to think about, do I have cancer or whatever? ⁓ and, and honestly, I don't know how, how to say this, but, ⁓ you know, there's good things that happen in our lives and there are bad things happen in our lives. And we, we, we wonder why, why, why me did this happen? ⁓ but also some good things has happened since I had cancer. I've been able to help other people, ⁓ talk with other people and. and go through some of the same things they did, they're going through and kind of help them heal. And so I see it, I see it that way as a positive after the fact, I would say. And I have to say that I don't know how anybody goes it alone. They almost need support somehow. And for those that don't know how to deal with somebody that has cancer and they don't. I would have to say you do something on a regular basis. You do something, say, a lady that visited me on a Wednesday, every Wednesday, and I had a letter given to me every Sunday morning. ⁓ So those are things I had to look forward to. And that's what I kind of remember going through my treatment. Yeah. speaker-2: So you, when you look back at your experience, Matthew, really reflect fondly on the positives that came out of it, your ability to help and support other people who were going through the experience. You look back fondly on the people who were that consistent presence for you ⁓ during your own experience. And it sounds like when you were now in the situation of supporting Monica, You knew what to do based on what was valuable for you in that moment. Okay, yeah. Monica, I saw you smile just now. speaker-0: think it's so funny because we're absolute opposites. We're such opposites. Like Matthew, he needs all the people and I don't want any people. It's terrible, but yeah, he wants to be surrounded by people all the time. speaker-1: When I'm in the hospital, I want more people to visit me than I don't want to just sit there in the hospital. Now for Monica, she doesn't want anybody to visit her. speaker-0: It's not that I didn't want Matthew there. I just felt like this was heavy and I needed to take care of myself and I couldn't worry about somebody else and their feelings. And I think that was the way that I took care of myself. Like I could not handle, if I broke down and I had moments, I could handle it. But if he broke down, I would not be able to handle his feelings and my feelings. Does that make sense? Like it was too, it would have been too much to deal with somebody else's reactions and their thought, you know, like I needed to do it by myself. Like other people are different and that's okay. That was, this was our experience. And then Matthew, he, he respected it, which was great. He respected that I don't, I need this to be, you know, speaker-2: key. speaker-0: a lone activity and then some things he can come with me for, right? And then sometimes it's okay if he comes along, but like the most of the time, like going through every day of radiation, I knew that I needed to be in my zone because I absolutely hated every single minute of that. It was the most terrifying experience of my whole life. So like, I just needed to be left alone. Like I couldn't deal with anything right there. Like I was just like, gotta go. So, yeah. ⁓ speaker-2: I mean, it's so interesting because I remember in moments thinking like, I'm having enough trouble with my own emotions. Like, I can't deal with yours too. ⁓ But I know now that that is also a really rich environment for building connection, right? When you can allow the space for both people's emotions. Because I've also been on the opposite end of that, being the caregiver. and not having a space for my emotions. So yeah, Matthew, again, I'm just sort of like really curious about how you were able to hold this space, have your emotions, go through this experience and give Monica the space that she needed. speaker-1: I think it was only by God. mean, honestly, it was, I knew how she was for one thing, and she would tell me what she needed. And I had to just accept that. So it wasn't about me, it was about her. so that's kinda, don't know how for sure I did it, but I knew what she needed. speaker-2: Yeah, he definitely did. Yeah, I mean, and what came out of that, I heard, is using your faith as an outlet, Matthew, is that you knew you needed an outlet. You found an outlet through faith so that you could show up for Monica in the way that she needed, even if what you might have needed in that situation was different. ⁓ speaker-0: it would have been totally different. speaker-2: Right, I mean, I can think of situations where marriages have fallen apart or relationships have been fractured. I'm thinking of another podcast guest who talked about the person that they thought was going to be there for them was not there for them in the way that they needed. And it fractured the relationship in some way. And so I think knowing what your partner needs and doing that ⁓ is a really important lesson to take away. Because I think goes back to something else, Matthew, you said earlier about this idea of control and finding the things that you can control. You can control your attitude. You can control how you support your spouse. speaker-1: You know, the things that bothered me was I'm one of eight kids and only two of my siblings came to visit me. And later I found out that my twin brother didn't come to see me because he thought he would catch cancer. So that's how unknown it was to him. And he was not educated in cancer. you know, a lot of times you can't blame these people, but you, ⁓ They're just not educated in what's going on. speaker-2: Yeah, I think that's an important message for the people who are supporting a loved one is to educate yourself as much as you possibly can because the more you are educated about what the person is going through, the better you can advocate for them, help them, support their needs. know, Monica, I want to go back to something else that we have talked about off camera that I think is really interesting and worth saying here because I think this dovetails with something that's really important for you out of your experience is that You know, when you had cancer the first time, you chose to go the conservative route. You didn't want to do the radiation. And then you got cancer again, and you had a much more ⁓ difficult time with it, right? You had a more severe surgery. You had to go through the radiation the second time. And so I'm curious about this idea of like, the I told you sos, right? The people who I think probably were well-meaning and cared for you. And maybe we're like, okay, here we are again. So like how, to what extent did you have to deal with the I told you so's and if so, like how did you manage that? speaker-0: ⁓ yeah, that was difficult for sure. ⁓ So when I was going through my second biopsy, ⁓ the person that was doing the biopsy, ⁓ as she was doing the biopsy on the table, she literally was asking me, while the biopsy is happening and I am in absolute agony, why I didn't have radiation the first time. kind of guilting me into thinking like, you know, I should have had radiation in the most vulnerable place you can possibly be trying to make me feel bad about my choice. I felt for me that radiation the first time wasn't, I did not feel like it was going to be a good thing for me. ⁓ Given the type of cancer that I had and everything else, I just didn't. I was doing the signotera. Looking back, ⁓ I wish I had more information. Like the Signatera only tests for it when it's in your blood. I did not know that. Nobody told me that. So it was absolutely useless. And it would have, what I mean by it's testing it in your blood is it would have been more advanced. It only gives you a result if it's more advanced. So ⁓ it would have eventually shown up. but I could have had a very different stage at that point, right? So I think that was a false sense of security that it gave me because it kept coming up negative. And I was like, okay, I'm doing great. I'm doing fine. You know, what am I worried about? I changed my diet. I changed my cooking. I changed all the stuff in my house. I was doing so many things. The second time when I had the surgery is when I found out that I actually had two pretty No, three pretty good sized tumors right behind the biosorb that they removed. So when I found out that they had grown so quickly within a short amount of time, then I had to take a different approach because obviously something was causing this to grow exponentially. So I was like, ⁓ okay, this is not a little something like the first one. This is a bigger ⁓ something. And then the person that I went to get radiation from, I remember... first time I had seen her and she told me I need to do radiation and I said okay and I never actually said no I just said no not right now I kind of delayed it I just wanted more information anyway she gave me that like ⁓ yeah I knew you'd be back here and then she still continues to give me that like okay yeah well you know and then Yeah, it's there. It's like the undercurrent that like, you ⁓ And then one thing that I heard from somebody, from another doctor is like that I said, well, I'm not sure, you know, I said, I don't know if I said if it's, I'm not sure if it's right for me right now. I don't know exactly how I said it, but this person said, well, you're out of your depth. And I was like, ⁓ I'm out of my depth. speaker-2: Anyway... speaker-0: ⁓ I think, again, you know, It's kind of interesting because if I'm being completely honest with you and myself, like if I had the information today that I have in the very beginning of my journey, like in the very, when I first got diagnosed, honestly, I wouldn't have done anything. I would not have had the biopsy. I would have left it alone. Would left it alone. But I can't go back. I can only move forward. speaker-2: Mm. speaker-0: And ⁓ now, knowing what I know now, I I'm doing what I can, but I'm still making my own choices. Like I'm not a person that is going to just nod their head and do what I'm told. I need to do my homework. I need to research. I'm one of those people. Like I need to know. I mean, nobody knows me like I know me. the bottom line. And I know, I know like some things like I'm not going to do that. Like I remember when I went ⁓ to that naturopathic doctor or whatever, which he was amazing. He was like the top top doctor. He deals only with oncology and he had he deals with medical oncologists as well. So he's very well informed. But one of the one of their treatments was a mistletoe therapy, which ⁓ he wanted me to give myself shots of mistletoe therapy. And ⁓ there was no way that I was going to do that. I was like, I'm not doing that. I felt bad, but I just was like, I'm not giving myself a shot. I'm not going to give myself a shot with a needle. I'm not doing that. And I felt kind of guilty a little bit, like this was the recommended course of treatment that I declined, but also felt bad for not doing radiation. It is what it is. You're not going to give yourself grace. I'm not perfect, but... But yeah, like some things you just know you're not going to be able to do. So you do something else, you know. speaker-2: Yeah, and I think it's interesting, right? Because we all know hindsight is 20-20. Exactly. And I'm hearing you say, you know, that you might have even done things differently knowing now what you didn't know then. Right. But that you still wouldn't necessarily... speaker-0: Take. speaker-2: the recommended course of action because it doesn't feel right for you. And I know in my own body, I'm having kind of a reaction to that. ⁓ And I think the lesson here is in listening to yourself and withholding judgment. Matthew, you've been sort of the model of that through this experience for what the person is going through and allowing them to make their own choices irrespective of what's happening. speaker-0: And that's so important. And also as a friend to another friend or if you have somebody that's trying to be supportive of somebody going through cancer, if they want to talk about their cancer, let them talk about their cancer. Don't give them opinions about what you think they should do. Let them decide for themselves. But also if they don't want to talk about their cancer, don't talk about their cancer. Let them lead. Let them decide. Hey, I want to talk about my cancer. Hey, I don't. That's OK too. know, reserve the judgment. Talk to other people about your judgment, but maybe don't talk to that person, you know? Be there and be a support. speaker-2: Yeah. Yeah, so let's kind of tie this up a little bit ⁓ and focus on some of the positives that have come out of this. mean, you've talked about, both of you have talked about focusing on positivity and the positive in your life, not letting fear control your life, ⁓ educating yourself, empowering yourself. ⁓ the importance of communication and relationship when things are really hard, knowing that these hard things can be a source of fracture. ⁓ How else do you see this experience for both of you propelling you forward? Monica, how about you? speaker-0: I kind of was thinking it brought to focus my own mortality like really clearly like I just realized like, okay, ⁓ if I die, ⁓ which I feel I'm okay with that. If I die, how do I feel? Okay, I'm okay. I feel completely okay with that. I'm a piece about that. I have to, if I go, I'm good. You know, like I feel like I'm, it's okay. I've done, I've lived a good life. I'm okay. But some people don't. They feel like, ⁓ my gosh, I don't want to do anything. I want to do everything to prevent that. ⁓ And they come from a place of fear. I don't fear death. I fear not living my life to capacity. I fear I need to live my life to the capacity that I can. ⁓ And the other thing was that phrase, begin with the end in mind. So if I were to go. Like what do I want to accomplish before that happens? Or is there anything that I feel is unfinished? So ⁓ it gave me that kind of perspective. Like I started thinking about this, like no more do I want to waste any more of my precious minutes that I have on this earth doing things I don't like, I don't want to do, and I'm going to just say no to. I'm just going to be really clear about that. Like no more, I'm not going to, no. Like any friends that I don't feel are true and honest, goodbye. You know, I just like lots of endings, you know, like it's just like, I'm done with this. I don't want to do this anymore. ⁓ Is this important? And then now, now today, like my thought process is, does this matter? Or do I need to say that? Maybe be quiet. You know, like it's so funny because it's like, when you think about that, like, do you need to say that? No, you don't do that. Do you want to do that? No, you don't. So I just want to, I just want it to be clear, like that your whole perspective shifts. And then if you think about Like, this matter 20 years from now? Will anybody even remember that? No. And I think that's the bottom line. I still have a lot of things that I wanna do. I hope I get to do them. But if I don't, I'm good. I feel very at peace. I have peace about... about things. mean, I guess, you know, that's all. And then whatever happens, I have peace about it. I know that's crazy to say, but yeah, you know. speaker-2: Two other questions that I have before we kind of bring this home is you've talked about some of these lessons and amazing things that you have, this perspective, this discernment, stronger relationship, knowing how to build connections and be support systems for other people who are going through the shit. ⁓ What's next for you both? speaker-0: What's next in terms of? speaker-2: Yeah, where do you go from here? Where do we You're talking about, you know, cutting the things out that don't serve you, wanting to sharpen your focus on living your life to capacity. So what's next? speaker-0: I what's next is every day, right? Every day. And I think just taking it one day at a time. And there's no need to hurry life. There's no need to be doing, again, just being intentional, being present is what's next. I think that's important. Just enjoying and savoring the moments, the little things that bring you joy every day, I think that's important. ⁓ It's important to not... ⁓ not forget why we're really here. Like, you know, we're not really here for ourselves. We're here for other people, in my opinion. This is my opinion, that we're here to add value to others. We're here to ⁓ add value. ⁓ And whatever I can do, I do. you know, and that's what I want to do, just bring joy to other people. And that's what I do with my work. I bring joy to other people. And I love that. You know, I'm happy to do that. Yeah. speaker-2: Okay, here to be present to connect. Matthew, how about you? speaker-1: Well, I'm a little, I have to say, I've been thinking about this for a while and ⁓ I'm going to be ⁓ joining a group that celebrates recovery and ⁓ be more or less a support for those that whatever they're recovering from, they sit with them and support in their support group. And that's what I'm going to start doing on Fridays. speaker-2: Okay. Lives of service, both of you. Okay. All right, final question. What do you tell people who are going through the shit right now? Matthew. speaker-1: Well, before you respond, should really look at the event and evaluate and really think about what's going on in your life, not just what's happening, and then respond. And the same thing for those that are supporting them. Let them, they know what they want. They can make the decision. If they really can't make the decision and they really want you to make that decision for them, I would even push back saying, no, this is your body. This is your choice. And help them to make the choices because it may not sound like it may not be the answer you have for them that they want, but you have to let them have, make that choice. and speaker-2: Believe that they have the answer inside of them. speaker-1: Right. And for those that are going through whatever just happened, I would say take time and think about it. Learn a little more ⁓ because it's a life-changing ⁓ choice that you're making. And you have to be comfortable with it. And you can't go and blame somebody else because they told you you should do this, for one thing. because speaker-2: Take the time to make an informed choice. speaker-1: right speaker-2: Monica, how about you? speaker-0: think if you're going through the shit, think the number one thing to do is slow it down. Slow it. Slow it the heck down. I don't want to say the F word, but yes, slow it down, way down. And the reason I say that is because we think we have to make immediate decisions, but we don't. We don't have to have instantaneous reactions and we don't have to immediately respond to anything. Doing nothing is sometimes doing the most that you can do. Just do nothing with it. Just sit with it. And then make a decision that's not emotional. Because when you make a decision that's reactive or emotional, a lot of the times you will end up regretting that you made that choice because you're in the moment and you're reacting and you're not thinking it through. And also the other thing is get a lot of information. No matter what, like if you want to get a divorce, for example, this is not nothing to do with cancer, but if you're thinking about getting a divorce or something like that, Get a lot of information, maybe get, see a couple people, get information, be prepared before making any decision. And same thing with any kind of health care or whatever, get a lot of information and then decide what's best for you. But you don't have to make a decision because you're pressured to make a decision on the spot. I felt like very pressured to be honest, and I wish I would have just taken more time with it. speaker-2: Yeah. So live in the small moments, get the information, slow it down. Yeah. Slow it down. make, so that you can make informed decisions rather than irrational or emotional ones. speaker-0: Absolutely. Options are good. know, it doesn't have to look like what you think it looks like. It could have a look very different and it could still be amazing. It still could be wonderful on the other side of what you're feeling right now. Okay. It's not forever. It's not forever is what I'm trying to say. It's not the shit is not forever. It ends at some point. speaker-2: Yeah. It doesn't. I can attest to that myself. Okay, well, Monica and Matthew, that wraps it up for us. Listeners, thanks for listening and we'll see you on the flip side. Really appreciate you being here with us today. speaker-0: Thanks so much, John. speaker-1: You bet. Thank you. speaker-2: That's it for this episode of Through the Shit. Thanks for listening. If you liked this podcast, like, share, and subscribe, and maybe send it to someone who needs a boost because they're going through the shit. While you're at it, tell them how important they are to you. If you have a story of shit to share or you're in the shit now, I'd love to hear from you. Email me at throughtheshittpodcast.gmail.com or go to our website at throughtheshitt.com. I'll see you on the flip side.