Latest / The HighDive / Ep. 4 | Can I Trust My Bible? Part 4 | How to Choose a Bible Translation Without Losing Confidence in Scripture

Transcript

Ep. 4 | Can I Trust My Bible? Part 4 | How to Choose a Bible Translation Without Losing Confidence in Scripture · The HighDive

0:00
SPEAKER_01: All right, question for you.
0:01
SPEAKER_01: Have you ever walked into a Christian bookstore?
0:06
SPEAKER_01: Well, let me read.
0:07
SPEAKER_01: Do you remember?
0:08
SPEAKER_01: Do you remember when we had Christian bookstores?
0:11
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
0:12
SPEAKER_01: So now I guess okay, you're walking into Barnes and Noble and you're going into the Bible section.
0:17
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
0:18
SPEAKER_01: Uh do you or have you ever gotten overwhelmed at all of the options that you could choose from?
0:26
SPEAKER_00: Um in my personal experience, I haven't got overwhelmed because I always go to this to one version.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: Oh.
0:34
SPEAKER_00: Like growing up, it was You were that guy.
0:36
SPEAKER_00: Well, growing up, it was you only got the King James.
0:39
SPEAKER_00: And then when I finally got old enough to actually read and think for some stuff, I started going to NASB, and now it's just ESV.
0:46
SPEAKER_00: So I don't, I don't, I don't get overwhelmed because I go straight for the I'm going for one.
0:50
SPEAKER_00: But most people, I imagine, when you walk in, you're like, well, which one of these do I use?
0:56
SPEAKER_00: That is probably a bit a big question mark that goes to that.
1:00
SPEAKER_01: Fair.
1:00
SPEAKER_01: So it is reasonable to think that a person could get overwhelmed and perhaps walk away uncertain, did I get the right one?
1:11
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
1:12
SPEAKER_00: I think that is probably not only uh I think that is highly likely that people walk in, especially new believers.
1:18
SPEAKER_00: Fair.
1:19
SPEAKER_00: Go, I don't know what I just did, and walk away going, I don't even know.
1:22
SPEAKER_00: I'd imagine there's probably tons people just walk away not having got one because I'm like, I don't even know how I'm supposed to do.
1:27
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:27
SPEAKER_01: That's also so that scenario props up the question that we're gonna try to ask and answer.
1:35
SPEAKER_01: So welcome uh to our final episode in this four-part series.
1:41
SPEAKER_01: Let me clarify: this is not the final episode of our podcast.
1:44
SPEAKER_01: Yes, this is the final episode of this short mini-series.
1:48
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
1:48
SPEAKER_01: Uh, four parts striving to answer the question, can I trust my Bible?
1:53
SPEAKER_00: So this is part four of a four-part series.
1:55
SPEAKER_01: Yes, quattro, as we would say.
1:58
SPEAKER_01: Um, so again, thank you.
2:00
SPEAKER_01: If this is your first time with us, welcome to the High Dive Podcast of Calvary Baptist Church in Columbus, Georgia.
2:06
SPEAKER_01: Uh, we're grateful that you're here.
2:08
SPEAKER_01: So thanks for for joining us in this conversation.
2:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, a little, I guess a short summary on where we've been.
2:16
SPEAKER_01: So uh the first episode, you were with us, and we really spent some time acknowledging the textual variant issue in the ending of Mark 16, which has kind of really bubbled up this whole question for us um as we've been navigating through the Gospel of Mark for a year and a half almost.
2:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there you go.
2:38
SPEAKER_01: So then second episode, um, Pastor Philip was no Pastor Frank was in here with us, episode two, and we kind of defined some terms like what is a manuscript, what is a textual variance, and ultimately ended uh with a prayerfully a renewed sense of confidence in uh the power and the authority of God to inspire scripture, also has the power and the authority to sustain and preserve it.
3:05
SPEAKER_01: The episode three, Pastor Philip was in here, and we began to really internalize that information into okay, what is the confidence that I can then gain?
3:16
SPEAKER_01: And how does that that impact my personal devotion and confidence to scripture?
3:22
SPEAKER_01: So today um we're gonna look, we're gonna try to understand, okay, what are Bible translations?
3:29
SPEAKER_01: How do we get this?
3:30
SPEAKER_01: Um ultimately, hopefully, uh setting a person up with some level of confidence if they are finding themselves in Barnes and Noble, or if you find a Christian bookstore somewhere in the world.
3:42
SPEAKER_00: Um Is that kind of like finding a blockbuster somewhere in the world?
3:47
SPEAKER_00: You find a Christian bookstore in the world?
3:49
SPEAKER_00: You know what?
3:49
SPEAKER_00: I I think I think it's I think the odds are a little higher.
3:53
SPEAKER_01: I do think there are more Christian bookstores than blockbusters.
3:57
SPEAKER_01: Is there even a blockbuster?
3:58
SPEAKER_01: I think there's one left in like North Dakota or somewhere.
4:02
SPEAKER_01: So I think there are more than one Christian bookstore still in the world.
4:05
SPEAKER_01: Either way, I think this matters for I think this will either matter for that first-time believer who's buying their first Bible, it could even matter for um a longtime church member who is never really thought about this before.
4:23
SPEAKER_01: It could potentially, and we're I want to be generous and empathetic, it could also maybe push against an individual who has had a long-standing position on deck gummet.
4:35
SPEAKER_01: This is the one I use.
4:37
SPEAKER_01: And as you've said, this is the one the apostle Paul uses.
4:40
SPEAKER_00: It's good enough for the Apostle Paul, it's good enough for me.
4:42
SPEAKER_00: So maybe we'll answer that question, or at least offer some observations.
4:47
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's but we want to do so prayerfully, empathetically, clearly, helpfully.
4:53
SPEAKER_01: That that is our goal.
4:54
SPEAKER_01: So um welcome.
4:56
SPEAKER_01: Again, our target audience for this is the folks at Calvary Baptist Church, but anyone's obviously welcome.
5:02
SPEAKER_01: So uh if you have found it, please uh like, share, subscribe, follow whatever your podcast platform or YouTube subscribes.
5:13
SPEAKER_01: Um I think now we're probably officially have enough episodes out there that people could even leave a review.
5:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you could leave a review.
5:20
SPEAKER_00: A five-star review would be great, a four-star review would be good.
5:24
SPEAKER_00: Okay, a three-star book acceptable, two-star not as great.
5:29
SPEAKER_01: All right, now can since this is a long form podcast, um, you are you know things nerdwise.
5:38
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
5:39
SPEAKER_01: Why why is a review even matter for a podcast?
5:42
SPEAKER_00: Well, because um part of the algorithm of recommending things to you when you pull up the podcast app or you pull up a website or whatever, um, when you go to Google and you search, part of the algorithm is trying to find things that more align with you.
5:59
SPEAKER_00: And so when you leave a review and you write words in there that that other people who are like you may find interesting, it is more likely that they will find your podcast or that thing once somebody leaves a review.
6:12
SPEAKER_00: So a podcast with 20 reviews is more likely to get recommended than a podcast with one review.
6:18
SPEAKER_01: All right, so more reviews are better.
6:21
SPEAKER_01: Safe to say then uh when people leave a review, it helps other people find it.
6:26
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
6:27
SPEAKER_00: It helps the discovery process.
6:29
SPEAKER_01: Got it.
6:29
SPEAKER_01: All right, thank you for that education.
6:31
SPEAKER_01: Glad to be of assistance.
6:32
SPEAKER_01: Um so I I brought some Bibles today.
6:34
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
6:34
SPEAKER_00: Um I meant to bring my I have an I have an old Schofield Bible, and I meant to bring it today, but I forgot.
6:42
SPEAKER_01: All right.
6:42
SPEAKER_01: So speaking of your old Schofield, yes, there's a anyway.
6:47
SPEAKER_01: King James Schofield, like the original Bible.
6:50
SPEAKER_01: All right, so what's what's your favorite Bible, translation, or style that you've ever had, and why?
6:58
SPEAKER_00: Um okay, I'm gonna answer that in two ways.
7:02
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
7:02
SPEAKER_00: My absolute favorite Bible that I've ever had is my Schofield King James, because it was a Bible that I really used the first time I really began to study the Bible.
7:16
SPEAKER_00: And so when I go pull that one up now, it has a lot of like of notes and underlines and connections.
7:22
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like the first Bible I had where I studied the scriptures.
7:28
SPEAKER_00: And so that Bible is really important to me.
7:30
SPEAKER_00: But in terms of my my per where I'm at now in my life, the ESV is the Bible that I prefer.
7:36
SPEAKER_00: Okay, it feels it feels very much a oh, it's really close to a word-for-word translation, which I really like when I'm trying to study the Bible, and it's also very easy to read, so it's readable, so it has a has a balance between those two things to me.
7:51
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
7:51
SPEAKER_01: Can I answer that question?
7:53
SPEAKER_00: Please.
7:53
SPEAKER_00: What is your Ricky?
7:54
SPEAKER_00: What would be your favorite?
7:55
SPEAKER_00: Your favorite.
7:55
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
7:57
SPEAKER_01: So I would say um there's a couple, honestly.
8:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'm trying to see if I brought any of these with me.
8:05
SPEAKER_01: Uh probably this Bible, I would say sentimentally, yeah, means a lot to me.
8:14
SPEAKER_01: I got this Bible.
8:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, this is another, there are gonna be many rabbits I'll be tempted to chase today.
8:20
SPEAKER_01: But it's a long form podcast.
8:22
SPEAKER_01: So we can chase.
8:23
SPEAKER_01: Um so we used to go to this Bible camp growing up in Rissacca, Georgia.
8:28
SPEAKER_00: Praise the Lord, hallelujah, amen.
8:30
SPEAKER_01: Uh, it was eventful, I would say.
8:32
SPEAKER_01: And so one of the motivators that they would give for kids it to, it would be like, hey, you take notes, and if you bring the notes up to the preacher at the end of the conference, whoever he arbitrarily felt like was the best note taker could get like a voucher to go to the bookstore and to get whatever you want.
8:56
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
8:57
SPEAKER_01: So I apparently, according to You selled at note-taking.
9:03
SPEAKER_01: I took the best notes.
9:05
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
9:05
SPEAKER_01: So this is the Bible then I got.
9:07
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
9:08
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I was excited.
9:09
SPEAKER_01: This wasn't like the first Bible that I thought was leather.
9:12
SPEAKER_01: Clearly, over time.
9:14
SPEAKER_01: It's not.
9:14
SPEAKER_01: This is uh imitation level.
9:16
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think it's bonded leather, bonded leather.
9:18
SPEAKER_01: I guess.
9:19
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
9:19
SPEAKER_01: Um, but also um, so it's got my name on it.
9:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
9:24
SPEAKER_01: It's a King James.
9:25
SPEAKER_00: Prayer emoji, apparently, too.
9:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
9:28
SPEAKER_01: Little um praying hands.
9:30
SPEAKER_01: But also, like when I when I really had like a I'll use some of our church language, like Kairos moments.
9:37
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
9:37
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I this is I I taped into the front of it uh in February of 1993, all I am, all I have, all I ever hoped to be, uh now and forever dedicate to the Lord Jesus Christ for his use and glory, absolutely, unconditionally, now and forevermore.
9:56
SPEAKER_01: Now hold me to it, Lord Jesus.
9:59
SPEAKER_01: And I signed my name.
10:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
10:01
SPEAKER_01: And so this Bible and specifically that mark in it has been a thing that the Lord has brought back to my mind at moments where I felt like maybe he was leading me in a different direction.
10:17
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, ah, you told me you'd do whatever.
10:19
SPEAKER_01: I was like, Yeah, you're right.
10:20
SPEAKER_01: So that's a standing stone for you.
10:22
SPEAKER_01: It is, it really is.
10:24
SPEAKER_01: So that one's special.
10:25
SPEAKER_01: Also, though, dad had growing up a loose leaf Bible.
10:29
SPEAKER_01: Do you remember?
10:30
SPEAKER_01: Yes, I remember this.
10:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm I don't know where it's at.
10:33
SPEAKER_01: I don't know where it's at.
10:34
SPEAKER_01: I don't even know if they make them anyway, but uh, I've never seen another one like it.
10:38
SPEAKER_01: But basically, when you opened it up, yeah, there were three screws.
10:42
SPEAKER_01: And so you could, you could, you could hole punch note paper and put it in between wherever you wanted it to be.
10:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
10:49
SPEAKER_01: That was pretty awesome.
10:50
SPEAKER_00: But I do, I do have Which I don't know if you know this or not, but I have dad's old Bible that he used to do nightly devotions and stuff with this that he would he would preach out of and stuff.
11:03
SPEAKER_00: That's cool.
11:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I have that one at home too.
11:05
SPEAKER_00: That's cool.
11:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's fallen apart, but sure.
11:09
SPEAKER_01: But you know, I I I I guess for me, like I've got a lot of different Bibles that I brought, and sentimentally they're all like this Bible is actually an NIV Bible, but this is the Bible I was ordained for ministry at Calvary, I mean at Piney Grove Baptist Church, and this is the Bible they gave me that night.
11:31
SPEAKER_01: So that one's special.
11:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
11:33
SPEAKER_01: Um this one is I've got just so many, kind of like what you call them, just notes.
11:41
SPEAKER_01: Notes.
11:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
11:42
SPEAKER_01: This was a teen study Bible that I had.
11:44
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
11:44
SPEAKER_01: And so it is funny to go back and just see, yeah.
11:48
SPEAKER_01: Like I would take sermon notes.
11:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
11:51
SPEAKER_01: But this is the first technical study Bible I ever had.
11:56
SPEAKER_01: Like devotions and comments in it.
11:59
SPEAKER_01: I don't even know.
12:00
SPEAKER_01: Uh oh, look at this.
12:03
SPEAKER_01: Uh so Pastor David Smith gave this to me.
12:07
SPEAKER_01: I know who that guy is.
12:08
SPEAKER_01: So this would have been Sheddigar Baptist Church made.
12:12
SPEAKER_01: So this would have been my high school Bible.
12:15
SPEAKER_01: Graduation gift from the church.
12:17
SPEAKER_01: So that's pretty cool.
12:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
12:19
SPEAKER_01: Um, anyway, so I I got a Hebrew English little interlinear Bible.
12:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so that one's fun.
12:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:27
SPEAKER_01: Uh this actually, when I started preaching here at Calvary, that's seven years ago, this June, by the way.
12:35
SPEAKER_01: Really?
12:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, this is the Bible that I preached out of.
12:39
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
12:40
SPEAKER_01: And then this is an interesting, it's not really sentimental, but I brought brought it.
12:44
SPEAKER_01: Uh this is uh a CSB, Christian Standard Bible, which I think ironically is officially the um translation of the Southern Baptist Convention.
12:57
SPEAKER_00: Uh I remember when that came out.
12:59
SPEAKER_00: That that came that is a fairly recent Bible translation.
13:02
SPEAKER_00: It is.
13:03
SPEAKER_00: And I was introduced to that Bible by Michael King.
13:06
SPEAKER_00: Really?
13:07
SPEAKER_00: That's when I I did not know CSB, was a CSB, but that was one of his favorites.
13:12
SPEAKER_00: It's and we'll we'll get into that.
13:14
SPEAKER_01: I'll bring up in a minute toward the end, or one of us will what makes this one different.
13:20
SPEAKER_01: So, all that being said, today's gonna be a fun conversation.
13:24
SPEAKER_01: I hope so.
13:24
SPEAKER_01: I will say out of the gate, uh in a long form, this probably has the potential to be our longest episode because I really want to I I would love for us to kind of map out three chunks of this conversation.
13:41
SPEAKER_01: I think it would be helpful to just get a little bit nerdy on because we've already talked about manuscripts.
13:49
SPEAKER_01: Like, how did some manuscripts start to to kind of create pathways of translations?
13:59
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
14:00
SPEAKER_01: So that kind of be a little nerd section, but I also I want us to end in that confidence when I'm looking at the bookstore.
14:08
SPEAKER_01: So, like maybe even category two of this conversation, the second chunk could be just generally what are the different approaches to translations that are used?
14:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:18
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then maybe at the end we may have a third chunk of okay, in light of all that, what are some pastoral coaching or advice that we could give to our church members or any believer when I'm in front of that bookshelf?
14:34
SPEAKER_01: What do I do?
14:35
SPEAKER_01: So um, shall we just jump in?
14:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think so.
14:39
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
14:41
SPEAKER_00: Um, I will I will um I'll offer this just a dynamic piece of information.
14:48
SPEAKER_00: When we think about the text that we're talking about, okay, the original autographs, the things that Paul wrote, that Matthew wrote, that Luke wrote, these original documents.
14:58
SPEAKER_00: This is 2,000 years ago when these things were written.
15:03
SPEAKER_00: And most of them were written in the Mediterranean area, right?
15:10
SPEAKER_00: So Matthew, Mark, and Luke, the Gospels are written sort of in this Jerusalem Israel geograph geography.
15:20
SPEAKER_00: Paul's writings are written in, you know, the Turkey, Asia Minor geography.
15:26
SPEAKER_01: Mesopotamia.
15:27
SPEAKER_00: Mesopotamia.
15:27
SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, no, that's all for anyway.
15:29
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
15:30
SPEAKER_00: Written in this in this geograph.
15:32
SPEAKER_00: And so over the course of 2,000 years, we talked about these manuscripts.
15:36
SPEAKER_00: There, these things have been copied and copied and shared with other churches and then copied and then shared with other churches and copied to where we now find hundreds and hundreds of these copies around the Mediterranean, from Turkey and Asia all the way around through Jerusalem down into Egypt.
15:56
SPEAKER_00: And these copies are the things that we have, these manuscripts, these little fract.
16:02
SPEAKER_00: Some are super little small fragments, some of them are full sort of sets of documents.
16:07
SPEAKER_00: Um part of the reason we have them is because of their ability to survive the climate.
16:13
SPEAKER_00: And so what ends up happening is in areas where the climate is more arid, dry, things tend to survive.
16:23
SPEAKER_00: So North Africa, North Africa, Egypt, right.
16:25
SPEAKER_00: They tend to have a survival longer.
16:28
SPEAKER_00: Um, whereas things that are in a more moist climate, the Mediterranean, Greece, Turkey tend to degrade faster, right?
16:38
SPEAKER_00: So because of the geography, because of the climate, because of those environmental factors, the kind of copies that we have left over, the quantity of copies that we find, the manuscripts that we find, those things are going to come into play, which I think is going to impact some of the things that we talk about today.
16:56
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
16:57
SPEAKER_00: Because they're going to create for us sort of buckets of manuscript categories.
17:03
SPEAKER_00: And it's generally defined by these geographical or types or textual sort of schemas that help us put them in categories.
17:12
SPEAKER_00: Do you like that word?
17:13
SPEAKER_00: Schema.
17:14
SPEAKER_01: I love that word.
17:14
SPEAKER_01: That's a good word.
17:15
SPEAKER_01: All right.
17:16
SPEAKER_01: So, all right, let me I love that.
17:18
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
17:18
SPEAKER_01: Let me establish maybe then uh a visual, if we can picture this.
17:24
SPEAKER_01: Um there are streams, if you would, of history.
17:29
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
17:30
SPEAKER_01: And along that stream of history, as we've gone from maybe 2,000 years, 1500 years, a thousand years, 500 along the way, yeah.
17:41
SPEAKER_01: Obviously, we have gathered and discovered and collected manuscripts along the way.
17:48
SPEAKER_01: So there are streams of history as then relate to the manuscripts that are used.
17:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:57
SPEAKER_01: Um I I feel the I feel the need to interject a statement that we made, I think, in episode two.
18:05
SPEAKER_01: Uh we our goal is not to create scholars out of people.
18:10
SPEAKER_01: Correct.
18:11
SPEAKER_01: Um, but and you're not scholars.
18:13
SPEAKER_01: We we are also not trying to project ourselves as scholars.
18:16
SPEAKER_01: That's correct.
18:17
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
18:18
SPEAKER_01: But I I do think there is important data or information to gather that helps us get to the place that we can have some confidence.
18:27
SPEAKER_01: So that's right.
18:28
SPEAKER_01: Uh there are, if we look throughout church history, and we've already defined manuscripts, we've looked at a little bit of archaeology, we talked a little bit about, you know, um the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Masoretic text, etc.
18:43
SPEAKER_01: Um there are a couple of different, I would say, primary streams.
18:51
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
18:51
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
18:52
SPEAKER_01: Um the primary one primary stream would be we will call it um a Byzantine era.
19:04
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
19:05
SPEAKER_01: It's commonly called the received text, or in Latin the Textus Receptus.
19:12
SPEAKER_01: This is uh specifically related to printed, that's a key thing, printed Greek New Testament.
19:21
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so we're immediately in the category of New Testament.
19:25
SPEAKER_01: Uh and that this received text or the textus receptus, a little bit of history about it.
19:31
SPEAKER_01: It was Erasmus.
19:32
SPEAKER_01: We're talking about in the uh early 1500s.
19:37
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so the printing press is just that's why it's a printed text about the time of Gutenberg's printed press.
19:45
SPEAKER_01: And so uh the textus receptus was a printed text, and it was primarily developed out of manuscripts from the Byzantine era.
19:56
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so Byzantine era history would I say when is the Byzantine era?
20:01
SPEAKER_01: Okay, we're looking at fourth century, fourth and three hundred to four hundred AD.
20:07
SPEAKER_00: Right, so Byzantine um Byzantium, this is uh Roman um sort of end of Roman history, yes, we're kind of Constantinople, Constantine, so kind of that well, yeah.
20:23
SPEAKER_01: We're kind of so Constantine that would be mid-300, so we're kind of transitioning from into the Ottoman Empire.
20:31
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
20:32
SPEAKER_01: So, but it's at in your world history class, that's the general timestamp.
20:37
SPEAKER_01: So uh the manuscripts that we had or that were commonly accepted then formed what later was um printed as the textus receptus.
20:52
SPEAKER_00: And those were documents, as we talked, as I mentioned at the beginning, this Byzantine, these were documents that were largely discovered in this sort of uh Mediterranean Turkey.
21:03
SPEAKER_00: The northern region of the Mediterranean is where these ancient text manuscripts would have been discovered that combined together to end up becoming what is known as the Textus Receptus.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: That's correct.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: And now the Textus Receptus, uh now we've got the printing press, right?
21:21
SPEAKER_01: Uh, we've got this Greek New Testament, and it now starts to get translated into English.
21:29
SPEAKER_01: So William Tyndale comes first, the Tyndale New Testament, then the Geneva Bible comes along.
21:38
SPEAKER_01: Uh the Geneva Bible was commonly accepted at that time.
21:44
SPEAKER_01: But, you know, the King of England, highly patriarchal, different different opinions about authority and kingship, especially some different opinions about baptism and about um.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Marriage.
22:01
SPEAKER_01: So he commissions what becomes the King James Bible.
22:05
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
22:06
SPEAKER_01: So we've got we've got three traditional English translations of the Textus Receptus, this Byzantine era based upon the manuscripts that were known at that time.
22:19
SPEAKER_01: Right.
22:20
SPEAKER_01: Tyndale, Geneva, King's James.
22:22
SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of one stream.
22:24
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
22:25
SPEAKER_00: And it would be, and that stream comes out of the Northern Mediterranean ancient manuscripts as the dominant manuscript collections.
22:35
SPEAKER_01: That's correct.
22:36
SPEAKER_00: Right.
22:36
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
22:37
SPEAKER_01: All right.
22:37
SPEAKER_01: So there's this other stream.
22:40
SPEAKER_01: We would uh we would call this, or it would commonly be considered the Alexandrian text type.
22:46
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
22:47
SPEAKER_00: That um which in the ancient world, just as a note of information, the largest library in the world was in Alexandria, Egypt.
22:58
SPEAKER_00: Impressive.
22:59
SPEAKER_00: Right?
23:00
SPEAKER_00: So if if you were if you had in this like early centuries, I don't know the dates.
23:08
SPEAKER_00: I wish I did.
23:09
SPEAKER_00: I wish it.
23:10
SPEAKER_00: But in the you could probably Google it.
23:12
SPEAKER_00: In the early centuries, if there was any document written, it would have been collected in the library in Alexandria.
23:20
SPEAKER_00: Like it was that large.
23:21
SPEAKER_00: It's like the Library of Congress, but for the ancient world.
23:23
SPEAKER_00: Okay, how do you even know that, by the way?
23:25
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
23:25
SPEAKER_00: I read it somewhere.
23:26
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it was a professor in college that told me.
23:28
SPEAKER_01: Part of me wants to put that in the category of useless information.
23:32
SPEAKER_01: But it's not useless because it's contributing to discovery.
23:35
SPEAKER_00: I'll see.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna look up uh I'm gonna Google this real quick.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: Alexandria.
23:40
SPEAKER_00: Well, you keep talking.
23:41
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
23:42
SPEAKER_01: So the Alexandrian text did originate out of Alexandria East, definitely a more arid climate.
23:48
SPEAKER_01: Uh, but what's interesting, and we talked about this, I think maybe in session one, um, our oldest manuscripts.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: So Codex Synaticus, Codex Vaticanus, uh, early papyrus fragments that are commonly known as P66, P75.
24:07
SPEAKER_01: Um, so those collected together to create the Alexandrian text type.
24:16
SPEAKER_01: Uh so now we got uh, I wouldn't know that I would call it uh a completely separate stream, no, but a branch of that stream.
24:26
SPEAKER_00: So Library of Alexandria, third century BCE, um 40 to 700,000 scrolls, 40,000 to 700,000 scrolls in this library.
24:39
SPEAKER_00: Um it had a collection of everything you could possibly imagine around the known world.
24:45
SPEAKER_00: And what is because of that, that's why Alexandrian texts are so important.
24:51
SPEAKER_00: You're like in the literary capital of the world, okay, and it's arid, which means things don't decay as quickly and easily.
25:00
SPEAKER_00: Which is why it's why you can say the oldest manuscripts come out of this region, but they're not the most numerous.
25:08
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
25:09
SPEAKER_00: Right?
25:09
SPEAKER_00: Those are two important things.
25:11
SPEAKER_01: Makes sense.
25:12
SPEAKER_01: All right.
25:12
SPEAKER_01: So um out of then those two streams start to primarily come translate English translations.
25:23
SPEAKER_01: Right.
25:23
SPEAKER_01: So um we we've already acknowledged uh uh you know the Tyndale, the Geneva, the King James, um, and then downstream with the New King James coming out of that um Texas Receptus.
25:40
SPEAKER_01: The other stream, the Alexandrian text, that's where we're largely getting um, and I'm gonna clarify this in a little bit, you know, the ES, the English Standard Version, the New American Standard Version, um, etc.
25:54
SPEAKER_01: So and there's more to talk about later and how we got those, but um that I think there's just an acknowledgement.
26:03
SPEAKER_01: Now, some may argue then, yes, um, because the received text that was commonly accepted by the early church from the Byzantine era up through that is the more reliable manuscript, which would then create this train of thought.
26:26
SPEAKER_01: The more reliable then source document would be the textus receptums for the New Testament.
26:31
SPEAKER_01: Right.
26:32
SPEAKER_01: The other argument would be, well, but the Alexandrian text is older, so let's rely on what the let's go back first and second century source documents, and the older is more reliable.
26:44
SPEAKER_00: Right.
26:44
SPEAKER_00: Right.
26:44
SPEAKER_00: This that ultimately is the argument.
26:47
SPEAKER_00: Do you do you look at this at the at the text collection that has the most number of copies from or may remaining ancient copies from the area in which these copies were originally written?
27:02
SPEAKER_00: Now you're looking at Texas Reptus, or do we look at the collection of text that are the oldest manuscripts, the ones that have that are as that are closest to um the writing, well, but they're further away in geography from when Paul wrote them, for example.
27:22
SPEAKER_00: And if you go that direction, then you're looking at the Alexandrian text strain.
27:27
SPEAKER_00: So you have these two sort of arguments, and depending on where you land, you may hold one over the other in terms of priority when you're looking at creating manuscripts and and translations.
27:41
SPEAKER_00: You want which one should have precedent or priority over the other if there's a variant.
27:46
SPEAKER_00: If if if one says this and the other says that, which one's gonna get your preference?
27:52
SPEAKER_00: And that's that's where sort of literary scholarship comes from.
27:55
SPEAKER_00: That's where this sort of argument comes from on which one is the correct.
27:59
SPEAKER_01: All right.
27:59
SPEAKER_01: So I want to at the I want to establish a principle that we will reiterate later.
28:06
SPEAKER_01: Our attempt today is to give information, not to prove or disprove or validate or debunk any anyone's approach.
28:15
SPEAKER_01: We're just giving information.
28:16
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
28:16
SPEAKER_01: Uh at the end, at the end, I will certainly, I'm happy to share my preference.
28:21
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
28:21
SPEAKER_01: But that's preference.
28:22
SPEAKER_01: That's what it is.
28:22
SPEAKER_01: That's true.
28:23
SPEAKER_01: It's a preference, it's not a uh conviction category.
28:27
SPEAKER_01: So I think it's helpful to know, okay, let's acknowledge these two streams.
28:30
SPEAKER_01: Okay, now information.
28:33
SPEAKER_01: Uh my effort is not to debunk anything here.
28:37
SPEAKER_01: That that's a I'm gonna state that qualifier again.
28:39
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
28:40
SPEAKER_01: When the King James Bible was translated, yes, it was truthfully based off of the Textus Receptus.
28:47
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
28:48
SPEAKER_01: However, about 85% of it was a translation of the Geneva Bible.
28:57
SPEAKER_00: Right.
28:57
SPEAKER_00: A translation of a translation.
28:59
SPEAKER_01: Right.
28:59
SPEAKER_01: So it is it is overwhelmingly a translation of an English translation with the parameters as directed by King James in 1611.
29:09
SPEAKER_01: Oh, well, it was finished in 1611.
29:11
SPEAKER_01: Right.
29:12
SPEAKER_01: Uh so let's acknowledge that.
29:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:16
SPEAKER_01: It very but that same principle is true for many.
29:20
SPEAKER_01: Many of these translations are not going back to the original source.
29:27
SPEAKER_01: Most of them are borrowing uh work from previous translators.
29:32
SPEAKER_01: So and that's true of the King James as well, right?
29:35
SPEAKER_00: Especially in on these texts that is is essentially consistent across Byzantine versus Alexandrian.
29:44
SPEAKER_00: Correct.
29:45
SPEAKER_00: Like when there's not a whole lot of gray and interpretive or understanding, then you lean in on what's already been done from scholarship.
29:53
SPEAKER_01: Right.
29:53
SPEAKER_01: Which I will this is a tool then.
29:55
SPEAKER_01: So I I just picked up uh this is my crossway ESV.
30:01
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
30:02
SPEAKER_01: And so if I'm if I'm paying attention, I I want to know most Bibles that we have today has this preface section.
30:12
SPEAKER_01: Right.
30:12
SPEAKER_01: Be so I'm, you know, after I get my little autograph page, and I've never used my marriage adoption or death records, but some people do.
30:23
SPEAKER_01: And in this preface section, it's going to tell me uh what's the philosophical approach that was taken.
30:30
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna talk about that a little more in a minute.
30:32
SPEAKER_01: It's gonna tell me what their source document was and how they handled this translation to get us here and what was their textual base.
30:42
SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna read the ESV is based on the Masoretic text of the Hebrew Bible as found in the Biblia Hebraica.
30:53
SPEAKER_01: I'm not even sure how to say that word, and the Greek text in the 1993 editions of the Greek New Testament published by the United Bible Society, the Novum Testestium Gras.
31:07
SPEAKER_01: I can't even say that.
31:09
SPEAKER_01: And it you could read this for, but it's it is going on and on and on with um how it used as its primary sources, but then this is their the ESV specifically was more of an eclectic approach.
31:24
SPEAKER_01: So but they're telling me this on the that on the front end, which uh again goes back to point with the honesty and the transparency of this.
31:31
SPEAKER_01: So it's telling me, hey, when we had difficult issues, we then consulted with the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Septuagint, the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Syriac Peshatia, blah blah blah, however you say that, the Latin Vulgate, other sources were used to clarify when there was discrepancy.
31:50
SPEAKER_01: So they're not they're not solely relying on the Alexandrian text, they're wanting to pull together uh early church fathers, early other translations to help themselves through those textual variant issues.
32:06
SPEAKER_00: Because the objective that they have is presenting the closest, the best translation of the original text that they possibly can.
32:17
SPEAKER_00: That's correct.
32:18
SPEAKER_00: And so when you encounter a text that has some interpretive difficulty, then you lean into history to help you.
32:31
SPEAKER_00: So, like I in in in teaching life group, oftentimes we'll when I know there's a challenging text, right?
32:37
SPEAKER_00: So we're reading through something, maybe in Ephesians or Colossians or whatever, and I know that that verse is in the Greek is a challenging thing.
32:46
SPEAKER_00: I'll have people read from different versions.
32:48
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
32:49
SPEAKER_00: Right?
32:49
SPEAKER_00: Because when you read from different versions, you get to see in English, you get to see the translators wrestling with, well, how do I interpret this?
32:57
SPEAKER_00: Or how do I translate this?
32:59
SPEAKER_00: Or how do I communicate what's hard to communicate from one language to the next?
33:04
SPEAKER_00: And so what the translators are doing is the same kind of thing when it comes to the text.
33:08
SPEAKER_00: We have manuscripts that say this, we have manuscripts that say that.
33:12
SPEAKER_00: We want to try to figure out which one was the original.
33:14
SPEAKER_00: How far back do we need to go?
33:16
SPEAKER_00: How can we go further back to help us reinforce do we go with option A or option B?
33:21
SPEAKER_00: And oftentimes they'll do things like they'll read the writings of early church fathers who are quoting scripture.
33:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:29
SPEAKER_00: Like, well, Aranius said this, so maybe that's the correct answer.
33:34
SPEAKER_00: And so I think what the preface does for us, and what that should give us some insight to is that these Bible translators, the people who are trying to give us these texts, are trying to present to us the best way they can what was it that was originally written in Hebrew and Greek 2,000 years ago.
33:54
SPEAKER_00: Right.
33:55
SPEAKER_00: And what is the best way to communicate what was written in Hebrew and Greek or Aramaic into English.
34:01
SPEAKER_00: Right.
34:01
SPEAKER_01: Because I think what I think comprehensively we understand this, we just we we forget it when we look at the Bible.
34:12
SPEAKER_01: Like uh translating, it's not as simple as a plug and play into a machine.
34:16
SPEAKER_01: This word means this.
34:17
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
34:18
SPEAKER_01: Because one word can mean many things.
34:21
SPEAKER_01: Like, and this is this is true of any language, and even today, like a word, what it means today may not be the same thing that it meant 50 years ago.
34:32
SPEAKER_01: That's correct.
34:33
SPEAKER_01: Like I'm ch I was even trying to think what are some words that like uh some almost slang words that the meaning of them has changed.
34:41
SPEAKER_01: Like what?
34:42
SPEAKER_01: Can you think of some?
34:43
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I'm supposed to say any of those.
34:46
SPEAKER_00: Um I don't know.
34:48
SPEAKER_01: All right, all right.
34:49
SPEAKER_01: This is a safe one.
34:50
SPEAKER_01: This is a safe one.
34:51
SPEAKER_01: No, um it's it's not even a popular slang word anymore, uh, but it was a few years back.
34:56
SPEAKER_01: And I would try now, you know, dads love to interject slang words in the vocabulary of our kids at the most awkward times, like you know, slay, like that.
35:08
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
35:08
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's not even super popular anymore.
35:11
SPEAKER_01: Right.
35:12
SPEAKER_00: But like the word that came to mind was cool.
35:14
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's cool.
35:15
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that okay.
35:16
SPEAKER_00: Is that a tip?
35:17
SPEAKER_00: Are you saying that yeah, slay?
35:18
SPEAKER_00: Are you saying are you saying like the temperature is cool?
35:22
SPEAKER_00: Or are you saying that something that you're experiencing is interestingly neat?
35:27
SPEAKER_00: Right.
35:27
SPEAKER_00: Like what do you mean by the word cool?
35:29
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so there's we could we could you could go on that rabbit drill, we could go in that rabbit drill and probably get in trouble.
35:33
SPEAKER_01: So let's stop.
35:34
SPEAKER_01: Let's stop.
35:35
SPEAKER_01: We've we've at least introduced the idea that um languages then don't map perfectly.
35:42
SPEAKER_01: Like so, not only can words mean different things, word orders differ, idioms don't translate, and so idioms are the worst.
35:53
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
35:53
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
35:54
SPEAKER_00: Jack of all trades and a master of none.
35:56
SPEAKER_00: Like, what is that?
35:57
SPEAKER_00: What is that word?
35:58
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what that means, but how do you translate that into Spanish?
36:00
SPEAKER_00: Right.
36:01
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
36:01
SPEAKER_00: It means something or Greek.
36:03
SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't I don't know.
36:04
SPEAKER_01: So all all of those start to introduce the challenges of translators when they're taking um, we may be taking a in the Hebrew, like that word.
36:16
SPEAKER_01: If I if I find someone in Jerusalem now sp who speaks Hebrew, the language has changed so much.
36:24
SPEAKER_01: And so it it's just hard.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: It's hard.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: We're dealing with ancient literature that's thousands of years old, and we're trying to put it into a format that English speakers can understand.
36:37
SPEAKER_01: That's correct.
36:38
SPEAKER_00: And you're translating and you're trying to deal with weird nuances of words sometimes.
36:43
SPEAKER_01: That's correct.
36:44
SPEAKER_01: So that being said, I just kind of from the big picture, from a Christian perspective, these different streams of thought, these challenges of translators, ultimately remind us that God's word has been preserved through many translations, through many manuscripts, through many languages.
37:05
SPEAKER_01: Uh, there are some differences in different translations.
37:10
SPEAKER_01: I think they're worth exploring, just as you just described in your life group class.
37:16
SPEAKER_01: Let's read this from a different translation to get the full picture or different perspective.
37:22
SPEAKER_01: But it doesn't necessarily overthrow the reliability of scripture.
37:26
SPEAKER_01: The overwhelming message, doctrine, gospel witness remains clear, has remained clear for thousands of years.
37:34
SPEAKER_01: And so it does, it should not shaken my trust in the reliability of scripture.
37:42
SPEAKER_01: That's correct.
37:43
SPEAKER_01: However, I think it does, let's move into the second chunk of this conversation.
37:48
SPEAKER_01: It does, though, matter in my use and approach.
37:54
SPEAKER_01: So I would love maybe you can walk us through what are some broad philosophical approaches to translations of the Bible.
38:04
SPEAKER_01: And I've got I mean, I've got NIV, uh CSV, ESV, KJV.
38:12
SPEAKER_01: So I've got a couple of different translations, and they they're in different philosophical approaches.
38:18
SPEAKER_01: Can you just walk us through what those are?
38:21
SPEAKER_00: So I'll give you the extremes, okay, and then knowing that there's variations in there.
38:27
SPEAKER_00: Understood.
38:27
SPEAKER_00: On one end of the category, it's a word for word.
38:31
SPEAKER_00: I'm the translators are doing their best to take that word, translate that into an English word, that word into an English word, that word into a word word.
38:40
SPEAKER_00: So word for word.
38:44
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes also called formal equivalence.
38:47
SPEAKER_00: Formal equivalence.
38:48
SPEAKER_00: That's great.
38:48
SPEAKER_00: Word for word.
38:50
SPEAKER_00: The other end of the spectrum is to read the text and then try to translate the idea of the text.
38:58
SPEAKER_00: So it's more of a thought-for-thought approach.
39:02
SPEAKER_00: Also called functional equivalence.
39:04
SPEAKER_00: Hey, there we go.
39:05
SPEAKER_00: Functional equivalence.
39:05
SPEAKER_00: So what was the other one?
39:06
SPEAKER_00: Formal.
39:07
SPEAKER_00: Formal and functional.
39:08
SPEAKER_00: Functional.
39:08
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
39:08
SPEAKER_00: So you have formal, word for word, and you have functional, which is thought for thought.
39:12
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then there are slight gradiations between those as you go from one to the other, right?
39:17
SPEAKER_00: So it's not like but so the benefit of a thought of a word for word, the formal equivalence, is that when you're reading the English translation, you're getting as close as you can possibly get to the original in terms of that word, that word, that word.
39:36
SPEAKER_00: You get the difficulty with that though is it oftentimes makes it difficult to read.
39:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
39:42
SPEAKER_00: The the the structure feels weird.
39:44
SPEAKER_00: It reads awkwardly.
39:46
SPEAKER_00: Like if I were trying to write that, I might have put those words in different order or something, right?
39:51
SPEAKER_00: So when you're a literal word-for-word translation, oftentimes it impacts the readability of the text.
39:58
SPEAKER_00: The other end of the spectrum means that when you go thought for thought, it's very it the readability is nice.
40:03
SPEAKER_00: It reads, it reads easily.
40:06
SPEAKER_00: Like if you think of like the most one of the most thought-for-thought translations is like the message translation.
40:11
SPEAKER_00: Like it reads like a novel, right?
40:14
SPEAKER_00: But you lose the textual detail of what the was really written.
40:21
SPEAKER_00: So those are kind of the extreme philosophical frameworks.
40:25
SPEAKER_00: Word for word, formal, thought-for-thought, informal in terms of how this text is translated into English.
40:30
SPEAKER_00: All right.
40:31
SPEAKER_01: So give me, let's let's just stay in the extremes for a moment.
40:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, what are the use cases then on why I would want to use a word-for-word or formal equivalent translation?
40:46
SPEAKER_01: As opposed to use cases, why and when I would want to use a functional equivalent or thought-for-thought translation?
40:54
SPEAKER_00: So the general approach to that that I'd recommend and I follow is if I'm going, if I'm looking for a Bible to study, I'm really wanting to do Bible studies with.
41:05
SPEAKER_00: I want a word-for-word or as close to a word-for-word translation as I can get.
41:10
SPEAKER_00: To me, that helps me better understand the text, the structure, how things are connected.
41:17
SPEAKER_00: You can begin to see how thoughts from verse one are connected to chapter two, verse seven, because the that the thread is baked into the text.
41:27
SPEAKER_00: So if I'm studying the text, I want a word for word.
41:31
SPEAKER_00: If I'm looking for something to just read, like I just want to read the Bible, then I lean more towards a thought-for-thought translation because it reads better.
41:40
SPEAKER_00: It it goes from idea to idea well, the transitions are good, but I'm not going to dig deep into it.
41:46
SPEAKER_00: I think you do a you teach a series on studying the Bible, you talk about like the difference between like a Netflix, like binge watching as being a movie critic.
41:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:55
SPEAKER_00: So like if I'm going to be a movie critic, I want to word for word.
41:58
SPEAKER_00: If I'm going to binge watch, then a then a thought for thought is a good reader, but I wouldn't do a whole lot of study on it, and I wouldn't base a whole lot of theology off of it.
42:10
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
42:10
SPEAKER_01: It's my approach to those two.
42:12
SPEAKER_01: And I'll and I would even acknowledge too, like, um if I am you you referenced that Bible study approach that that I taught and I've used.
42:24
SPEAKER_01: Like if I'm binge watching a book of the Bible, um, what I and I use that to say, I'm just reading it over and over again because I want to understand what's happening.
42:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
42:35
SPEAKER_01: Like I like to do that in a functional equivalent translation.
42:40
SPEAKER_01: Like I because I just I'm not really trying to study it in depth.
42:44
SPEAKER_01: I'm just trying to get a feel for what's the overall message?
42:49
SPEAKER_01: What's the big theme?
42:50
SPEAKER_01: What's the big idea here?
42:51
SPEAKER_01: You know, uh, who's he talking to?
42:53
SPEAKER_01: When did this happen?
42:54
SPEAKER_01: Those kind of ideas.
42:56
SPEAKER_01: And it's it is helpful.
42:58
SPEAKER_00: Trying to get the plot point, trying to get the theme, the story.
43:00
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
43:01
SPEAKER_01: But then when I really want to start studying it, I'm gonna shift to a formal equivalent translation.
43:10
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
43:11
SPEAKER_01: And because I really want to pay attention to as best as possible what is this original word, yes, and what did it mean then.
43:21
SPEAKER_01: Right.
43:21
SPEAKER_01: And truthfully, if I'm because of the nuance of the ancient languages, a lot of times it's gonna, well, it could mean this, and it could mean this, and it could mean this.
43:31
SPEAKER_01: And so that's where the art and the science of Bible study has to come in.
43:35
SPEAKER_01: But um, so let's think through then, let's look at some examples in that formal equivalent translation, acknowledging that there are gradient or variances.
43:52
SPEAKER_01: What are some examples of English translations that I could go find in that store that are?
44:00
SPEAKER_01: In that formal equivalent category.
44:03
SPEAKER_00: So formal equivalent examples would be King James.
44:06
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
44:06
SPEAKER_00: It's formal equivalent.
44:09
SPEAKER_00: New American Standard.
44:13
SPEAKER_01: New King James.
44:14
SPEAKER_00: New King James.
44:15
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
44:15
SPEAKER_00: Great.
44:16
SPEAKER_00: Those are some good examples of formal equivalent translators.
44:20
SPEAKER_01: And I have uh I have often heard, I I've not, we could probably could Google this too, but I have often heard that the NASB, the New American Standard Bible, is the most detailed and accurate formal equivalent translation, but it's pretty hard to read.
44:43
SPEAKER_00: It is, it doesn't read easily.
44:45
SPEAKER_01: Right.
44:46
SPEAKER_01: So then we move into some examples of functional equivalent.
44:50
SPEAKER_01: You've already mentioned the message.
44:51
SPEAKER_01: The message.
44:52
SPEAKER_01: Uh NIV.
44:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, New International Standard.
44:54
SPEAKER_01: I got one right here.
44:56
SPEAKER_00: Is it the living translation?
44:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
44:58
SPEAKER_00: Translation is one.
44:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:00
SPEAKER_00: Those are more thought for thought, idea for idea.
45:04
SPEAKER_00: Great.
45:05
SPEAKER_00: They read, they read more natural.
45:09
SPEAKER_01: All right.
45:10
SPEAKER_01: I'm not I'm not shifting any preferences.
45:14
SPEAKER_01: I am officially regurgitating what I've been told.
45:17
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
45:17
SPEAKER_01: I've heard a lot of folks uh the NIV has been revised.
45:22
SPEAKER_01: There's a new revision to it.
45:24
SPEAKER_01: And I've heard a lot of people, especially on the Hebrew language, really compliment some some of the way that they handled some of the text.
45:33
SPEAKER_01: I've I'm not necessarily endorsing that.
45:36
SPEAKER_01: I've not studied that myself.
45:38
SPEAKER_01: I'm just parroting back.
45:40
SPEAKER_01: There you go.
45:41
SPEAKER_01: I will interject, though.
45:43
SPEAKER_01: The CSB here that I'm holding, this is a different animal.
45:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:49
SPEAKER_01: It kind of stands in a category by itself.
45:52
SPEAKER_01: So this is what is technically considered the optimal equivalent.
45:58
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
45:59
SPEAKER_01: To my knowledge.
46:00
SPEAKER_01: Sounds like it's the best of both worlds.
46:04
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
46:05
SPEAKER_01: It's it's kind of uh it's a hybrid.
46:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
46:08
SPEAKER_01: So what they attempted to do was make it readable like a functional equivalent.
46:16
SPEAKER_01: Correct.
46:17
SPEAKER_01: But when they came to words that were doctrinally or theologically significant, they shifted then into a formal equivalent mode.
46:28
SPEAKER_01: So it is uh, to my knowledge, this is the only English translation that is that hybrid approach, which is one of the reasons probably why Michael King liked it.
46:40
SPEAKER_00: I would imagine so.
46:41
SPEAKER_00: Uh so it is he was he was very much about word for word, but he also liked to make sure it was readable.
46:46
SPEAKER_01: So it it's it's a very good one, honestly.
46:49
SPEAKER_01: Um all right, so we've we've made it through chunk one, we nerded it through a little history, chunk two, some of these philosophical approaches.
46:59
SPEAKER_01: And so really to help us kind of navigate through how to choose a translation that's faithful, um, what what advice would you have to that person who is in the bookstore trying to figure it out?
47:14
SPEAKER_00: Um I generally recommend for people who are wanting to study scripture to get a formal equivalence text.
47:26
SPEAKER_00: I that is my default recommendation.
47:28
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
47:29
SPEAKER_00: Um and the reason is because it may be a little bit diff more difficult to read, just just sit down and just read it.
47:36
SPEAKER_00: Um what I want you to do is to I want you to dig into the word.
47:42
SPEAKER_00: And if you're going to get a text to start digging into the word, I don't want you to get a text that's a thought-for-thought idea to start doing.
47:49
SPEAKER_00: So I would I'd recommend and default to a more literal word-for-word, formal equivalence translation.
47:57
SPEAKER_00: And so when people ask me what Bible should I get, I generally say, Why don't you go get an ESV?
48:03
SPEAKER_00: ESV is it's a it's a it's a formal equivalent, word for word, thought for thought idea, you know, that kind of thing.
48:10
SPEAKER_00: Um, but it also is pretty simple to read, it doesn't have a whole lot of weird syntax structure.
48:16
SPEAKER_00: I haven't really studied a whole lot on the CSB, but I generally recommend the ESV because I want people to be digging in the word.
48:24
SPEAKER_00: And if you're going to dig, I want you in a word for word, not a thought for thought.
48:28
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
48:28
SPEAKER_01: I I would agree with that.
48:30
SPEAKER_01: Uh now, um by the way, you just used another big word today, syntax.
48:35
SPEAKER_01: Send to use syntax and schema today.
48:38
SPEAKER_01: All right.
48:39
SPEAKER_01: I like that.
48:40
SPEAKER_00: So make some notes.
48:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
48:42
SPEAKER_00: Chalk it up.
48:43
SPEAKER_00: Chalk that one up, baby.
48:44
SPEAKER_00: Yes, sir.
48:45
SPEAKER_00: To bring in another$3 word next time.
48:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
48:47
SPEAKER_01: Well, you know.
48:48
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
48:49
SPEAKER_01: Anyway.
48:49
SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
48:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, no, it's it's it's actually great.
48:53
SPEAKER_01: So I preference.
48:56
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
48:57
SPEAKER_01: Solely preference.
48:58
SPEAKER_01: Preference.
48:59
SPEAKER_01: For the reasons that you just said, I prefer the ESV.
49:04
SPEAKER_01: That's what I preach out of.
49:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
49:06
SPEAKER_01: Um, but it is not like we have declared as a church.
49:10
SPEAKER_01: This is our official some I think the ESV oftentimes gets a bad rep because it's like, well, this is the reformed Bible.
49:20
SPEAKER_01: Uh I'm not even highly reformed.
49:23
SPEAKER_01: I just like the way that it reads.
49:25
SPEAKER_01: Right.
49:25
SPEAKER_01: And I like uh I like the ability that from this I can do a deep dive word-for-word study when that situation recalls for.
49:35
SPEAKER_01: All right.
49:36
SPEAKER_00: So when your children were young, yes.
49:39
SPEAKER_00: What Bible did you give your children?
49:44
SPEAKER_01: That's a good question.
49:46
SPEAKER_01: I I think I would have to.
49:51
SPEAKER_01: Can I phone the friend and ask my wife?
49:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, I think when they were kiddos, they had a new international version.
49:58
SPEAKER_00: That's what we that's what Eli had.
50:00
SPEAKER_00: So when when Eli was young, one of the first Bibles he got out once he got past the picture Bibles, his first like Bible was an NIV.
50:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
50:09
SPEAKER_00: And and the logic for us was I wanted something he could read.
50:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
50:12
SPEAKER_00: I wanted something that he wasn't getting bogged down in the words and the language and stuff because he was, you know, 9, 10, whatever, right?
50:21
SPEAKER_00: Plus at Calvary, it was it's kind of like the Bible that is the Bible that Calvary, our school uses.
50:27
SPEAKER_00: So it was a thing there.
50:28
SPEAKER_00: But when we were getting his first Bible, we got him an NIV, which is a thought-for-thought, informal equivalence, but for that reason.
50:36
SPEAKER_00: I want I wanted him to grow accustomed to reading the Bible, and I didn't want the structure and the formalness to sort of get in the way of that for him as a young fellow.
50:49
SPEAKER_01: I I would say um just a couple of general observations for the church member or the Christ follower who's actively engaged in their church to filter through one.
51:04
SPEAKER_01: I would suggest uh where do I start?
51:09
SPEAKER_01: Let me just start and see where I well uh in the beginning.
51:13
SPEAKER_01: Um Genesis 1-1.
51:15
SPEAKER_01: I think I should pay attention to what is the what's the translation that the teacher or preacher in my church is using.
51:28
SPEAKER_01: And it I don't I don't know that it's necessary to go get another Bible just for that reason, but it is it may remove some distractions if you know I've I'm a choral music guy.
51:40
SPEAKER_01: It when everybody's singing from the same sheet of music, it generally is easier.
51:46
SPEAKER_01: So um I I think that may be some reason to acknowledge, okay, maybe, maybe I'll if I don't have a strong opinion, maybe default to well, what is the the preferred translation that my church is using?
52:02
SPEAKER_01: Uh the second piece of advice I would give is we we shouldn't be hearers of the word, but also doers.
52:09
SPEAKER_01: And there is a difference between reading the Bible and studying the Bible.
52:13
SPEAKER_01: That's correct.
52:14
SPEAKER_01: So I would suggest, as a person who's striving to be a student of the word, have both a functional and a formal equivalent copy and use them both.
52:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
52:26
SPEAKER_01: Um I think I think in in good practice of Bible study, there should be a time where I'm comparing scripture to scripture.
52:35
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes that means chasing down the cross references in the Bible, but also that may mean let me read a couple of different translations to see how that thought or that idea was carried through.
52:47
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so maybe even now that people understand the different streams, maybe I want to have not just a formal and a functional equivalent, maybe I want to have something that's using that Alexandrian text and that uh Byzantine text.
53:05
SPEAKER_01: And so I can even have both streams of thought at my disposal.
53:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
53:10
SPEAKER_01: And the internet helps us with that now.
53:12
SPEAKER_00: Like you can go to the literature Bible, there's other places where the Bible gateway, Bible Gateway, you can pull them up side by side, and you can sort of have so you can have your paper Bible that that is your kind of study Bible, your go-to, um, and then pull up on the internet on the computer and you can see these others.
53:30
SPEAKER_00: Like if you're really going to get down and do a Bible study, that's a helpful tool to have your your text and read.
53:37
SPEAKER_00: Because when you do between multi- you know, the multilinear, was it interlinear Bible do they call it?
53:42
SPEAKER_00: Have all different text on it.
53:43
SPEAKER_00: When you have the different translations together, then you get to see where are the places where the translators begin to have some discussion when you see them side by side.
53:55
SPEAKER_01: Talk about the interlinear.
53:56
SPEAKER_01: So uh I I don't I didn't bring this Bible with me.
54:00
SPEAKER_01: This was funny.
54:01
SPEAKER_01: Like uh our freshman year at Bryan College, you know, when we had kind of stepped out of this independent Baptist world into this interdenominational world, I guess.
54:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
54:12
SPEAKER_01: My kind of rebel move, you know, is I had I had a uh King James version on this side, new international version on this side.
54:23
SPEAKER_01: I'm just saying I was living on the edge.
54:25
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
54:26
SPEAKER_00: That is uh a little edgy.
54:27
SPEAKER_01: I I do I do think though we have acknowledged these different streams, the formal, functional, or optimal equivalent.
54:36
SPEAKER_01: Uh we've even highlighted how you can look in the preface to your Bible translations and see that honesty from the translators of how they're so all those everybody's equipped.
54:48
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
54:48
SPEAKER_01: But I also I would add um a study Bible is helpful.
54:54
SPEAKER_01: And what makes a study Bible different than just a Bible Bible is it's got more footnotes, it's got the cross references, like this one's even got maybe some devotions or some highlights.
55:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's extremely helpful, but this is look at a study Bible, but always remember the the footnotes, the um, the devotionals are not part of the text.
55:28
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
55:29
SPEAKER_01: They are that's right, they are commentaries that are interwoven.
55:34
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
55:35
SPEAKER_01: So dis b just because it's inside the same binding doesn't mean that that makes the study notes or the footnotes equal to the text.
55:48
SPEAKER_00: So I have memories to to that point.
55:53
SPEAKER_00: I have memories, especially with my Schofield reference Bible.
55:56
SPEAKER_00: Oh, there we go.
55:57
SPEAKER_00: I have memories of theological arguments being made off of the footnote of Schofield.
56:06
SPEAKER_01: Oh goodness.
56:06
SPEAKER_01: Especially Especially Schofield.
56:08
SPEAKER_01: Especially in Genesis and the creation stories.
56:11
SPEAKER_00: Like, where did that come from?
56:14
SPEAKER_00: Do you really believe in the gap theory?
56:15
SPEAKER_00: Is that what we're doing?
56:16
SPEAKER_00: I'm telling you.
56:16
SPEAKER_00: There's like a whole bunch of stuff that's based off of the footnotes from Schofield that have become theological tenets that people believe, and it's like, that's not in the Bible.
56:29
SPEAKER_00: And they're like, Yeah, it is in my Bible.
56:30
SPEAKER_00: And they open up and they go to a footnote, and I'm like, that's not the anyway.
56:34
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I have distinct memories of this that proved to be somewhat traumatic over my life of deconstructing those crazy things sometimes.
56:42
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, fair.
56:43
SPEAKER_01: All right, so let me let me kind of start we're we're in our final approach.
56:48
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
56:50
SPEAKER_01: Some warnings.
56:51
SPEAKER_01: Warnings.
56:52
SPEAKER_01: Um on one extreme, a person could act as though translation differences don't matter at all.
57:02
SPEAKER_01: Right.
57:02
SPEAKER_01: Like um if it says holy Bible here, it must be okay.
57:09
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
57:10
SPEAKER_01: Because there are some there are some extreme examples of trans.
57:16
SPEAKER_01: We haven't even talked about the cotton patch translation.
57:19
SPEAKER_01: Like there are there are extreme translations of the Bible that are so they're so willing to shape translations to fit a cultural context or a moral bias.
57:41
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
57:42
SPEAKER_01: We're literally going to change the scripture in the words that we use or in our refusal to translate things in a way because we don't want to offend somebody.
57:50
SPEAKER_00: Or we have a political or social or whatever objective.
57:55
SPEAKER_01: So there are some outlier translations that should be avoided.
57:59
SPEAKER_01: So the first warning is don't don't act as though translation differences don't matter.
58:06
SPEAKER_01: They do.
58:07
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
58:07
SPEAKER_01: Words matter, accuracy matters, care matters.
58:11
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
58:11
SPEAKER_01: So I would have uh the historicity, uh, the longevity of a translation should be a considerable factor.
58:22
SPEAKER_01: Um it's important.
58:24
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
58:24
SPEAKER_01: The second is um uh acting as though a difference in translation means that nobody really cares what scripture says.
58:35
SPEAKER_00: Right, or you can't trust the Bible.
58:37
SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
58:38
SPEAKER_01: Um I think we should reject both extremes.
58:42
SPEAKER_01: I agree with that.
58:43
SPEAKER_01: Um that recommendation.
58:46
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
58:46
SPEAKER_01: Uh thank you.
58:47
SPEAKER_01: Very well.
58:48
SPEAKER_01: We we should care deeply about the accuracy of a translation.
58:52
SPEAKER_01: And at the same time, we should also maintain that confidence and the faithful translations communicate the word of God that have been preserved for us.
59:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
59:03
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I guess the third warning would be, and and you and I have we may be hypersensitive to this context.
59:12
SPEAKER_01: Um avoid the trap that my confidence in one translation makes me a superior Christian, and my my rootedness in my faith is in the preference of the Bible translation I've chosen.
59:32
SPEAKER_01: And anybody that doesn't use this is not a Christian, a bad Christian, or just doesn't care.
59:40
SPEAKER_01: Like that that spiritual elitism over a matter such as this, it's it's dangerous, problematic, very problematic.
59:50
SPEAKER_01: Um and I and I and I say that in love and empathy to many many dear friends who, you know, uh, I mean, if we're just calling it what it is, that that tends to be our KJ only, KJV only um friends, but I just uh be informed and be um I I think we're gonna get to heaven and we're gonna be surprised at who's there and who's not and who's not.
1:00:25
SPEAKER_01: Uh I think we're all gonna be surprised at some things that we thought we got right and we actually didn't.
1:00:31
SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, I think in to use to use some language in Calvary bat this is what we say in new member class.
1:00:44
SPEAKER_01: On the essentials, we must have unity.
1:00:47
SPEAKER_01: Correct.
1:00:48
SPEAKER_01: On the non-essentials, there is liberty.
1:00:53
SPEAKER_01: And in every area, we must show love.
1:00:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:00:57
SPEAKER_01: Uh the essentials, like doctrinal things like God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, yeah, uh death, burial, resurrection.
1:01:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, those are those are gospel-centric issues.
1:01:09
SPEAKER_01: Uh the non-essential category is a Bible translation conversation.
1:01:16
SPEAKER_01: This is a non-essential there there are certainly some of those extremes that I just mentioned that I I'm gonna put in the category of heresy.
1:01:25
SPEAKER_01: Correct.
1:01:26
SPEAKER_01: Uh, because now we're messing up the gospel.
1:01:29
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I am certainly, as we had advised, gonna think point and encourage to a formal equivalent translation for the reasons that we just mentioned.
1:01:37
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:01:38
SPEAKER_00: But anyway, I I would I would add this, uh, you know, Paul Paul tells Romans, our righteousness when compared to his righteousness, our righteousness is like filthy rags.
1:01:48
SPEAKER_00: Um and I know that Paul is making that argument in terms of salvation and whatever, but I but that idea of righteousness is being right, right in right standing with God.
1:01:58
SPEAKER_00: I think that it is important for us to understand that no matter what version of this we're looking at, the people that are doing this translation are trying to do their best, but they're fallen people with fallen, they're not that just understand that these are translations that we're trying to get as close to the original.
1:02:20
SPEAKER_00: Some people are going to take advantage of that and they're going to pervert it and distort it.
1:02:25
SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't mean that the scriptures have been perverted or distorted.
1:02:29
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
1:02:30
SPEAKER_01: And not to correct you publicly, but that's Isaiah 64, 6 rather than Paul.
1:02:35
SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much.
1:02:35
SPEAKER_01: I appreciate it.
1:02:36
SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Isaiah.
1:02:37
SPEAKER_00: Appreciate it.
1:02:38
SPEAKER_01: Uh that would be uh, I think technically fourth Isaiah, but that's a different conversation.
1:02:44
SPEAKER_01: A different day.
1:02:45
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
1:02:45
SPEAKER_00: Read Bima, listen to Bima anyway.
1:02:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:02:47
SPEAKER_01: All that being said, uh, man, we're grateful that for those of you that have stuck with us A through this longer than normal episode, but also through all four parts of this as we're finishing this series.
1:03:01
SPEAKER_01: It started with one textual variant.
1:03:04
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and we're navigated through this to acknowledge um that footnotes or textual variants they can raise honest questions.
1:03:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:03:13
SPEAKER_01: We've affirmed uh the freedom to ask those questions and to spur one another on through love and good deeds, iron sharpening iron.
1:03:23
SPEAKER_01: But none of those things change this great steady truth that God has spoken, his word is trustworthy.
1:03:30
SPEAKER_01: So read your Bible, study your Bible, ask honest questions about your Bible, uh, trust in the inspiration of scripture, the authority of God, the providence of God, and have confidence that you can trust your Bible.
1:03:44
SPEAKER_01: And so I hope, I hope this conversation for many has um added information.
1:03:50
SPEAKER_01: I hope it's raised more questions.
1:03:52
SPEAKER_01: Um I hope people are are wanting to go do more deep dives into different research on the canon and how we got our Bibles, uh, but ultimately walking away with some confidence and maybe even now with some tools.
1:04:05
SPEAKER_01: If I'm standing in that section of Barnes and Noble at the Bible, I know better some things to look for, maybe you some things to avoid.
1:04:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it'd be great.
1:04:13
SPEAKER_00: It's fantastic.
1:04:15
SPEAKER_01: So thank you for joining again.
1:04:16
SPEAKER_01: Uh High Dive Podcast, Calvary Baptist Church.
1:04:19
SPEAKER_01: Click like, subscribe, follow, share, review, all the things to help those algorithms.
1:04:25
SPEAKER_01: And uh, so do you want to close us out today?
1:04:28
SPEAKER_01: Bye.