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Delft Mama - The Thing That Actually Helps Expat Isolation · Dam Parenting

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Welcome back to Dan Parenting, and welcome to day eight of our
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12 Days of Christmas. By now, you might be feeling
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different than you expected, maybe more emotional or more
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reflective, or just change. And I'm not just talking about
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the Christmas season. There's a reason for all of
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this. Today's episode was chosen
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because it explains what actually happens to our brains
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when we become parents, and why that change matters far more
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than we're usually told. And I'm going to be honest, I
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fully fangirled over this one. I kept hearing about this
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incredible book steeped in neuroscience and research,
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finally putting language to something so many of us parents
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feel but we struggle to explain. The only catch?
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Well, the book was released in Dutch, So what could I do?
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But well, ask the author herself to come on the podcast and
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explain it to us in English so we don't miss out in this
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episode. Doctor Elka de Vita.
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Shares the neuroscience behind the so-called mother Brain and
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gently dismantles the myth that caregivers are losing focus,
1:00
memory, and capacity. Instead, she explains how our
1:04
brains are adapting, reshaping themselves to meet the demands
1:07
of parenthood. If you've ever wondered what
1:10
happened to your concentration, your recall, or even your sense
1:14
of self, this conversation may completely change how you see
1:18
yourself. Day 8 is about understanding
1:21
that you're not broken, you're becoming.
1:24
Enjoy. Welcome back to Dan Parenting
1:30
podcast. I'm your host Eva, and today I'm
1:32
incredibly excited to welcome Doctor Elka Devita, a leading
1:36
neurolinguist, cognitive rehabilitation expert and now
1:39
author of the much talked about new book The Mood of Brain Myth,
1:42
The Mother Brain Myth. Now this book is currently only
1:46
available in Dutch, but as soon as I heard about it, I knew I
1:48
couldn't wait for the translation to come out.
1:50
And honestly, I don't think any of us should.
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The ideas and research in this book are just too important to
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sit on, and as someone who's always hungry for research,
1:57
facts, and real insight into what's happening in the
2:00
parenting brains, I had to get Doctor DaVita on to talk about
2:03
it. And I'm going to be honest, I've
2:05
been sneaking around LinkedIn post, dabbing in Google
2:08
Translate and piercing together bits and bobs just to get a
2:11
sneak peek into the Mother Brain myth.
2:13
And honestly, nothing beats having the expert herself here
2:16
to break it all down and answer the questions we're all dying to
2:19
ask. The Mother Brain myth is already
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making waves across Belgium and the Netherlands, showing up in
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national media and parenting platforms, and for a good
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reason. In it, Doctor De Vita challenges
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some of the biggest assumptions about motherhood and the female
2:32
brain. She breaks down the science
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behind maternal mental load, identity shifts, and the myths
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that shape how society views and often limits mothers.
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And here at Down Parenting, that matters deeply.
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We're all about supporting parents, especially mothers,
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because let's be real, we are still incredibly understudied,
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undersupported, and overwhelmed while trying to raise children
2:53
in systems that were never really built with us in mind.
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Doctor Devita brings not only her scientific depth but also
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has so much clarity and compassion into this
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conversation, and we're so honored to have her with us
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today to dive into the brain science, bust some myths, and
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explore how we can better support ourselves and each other
3:10
as modern parents. So, Doctor Devita, welcome.
3:14
I'm so glad to have you here. Welcome, happy to be here as
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well. Your book The Mother Brain Myth
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is already opening so much need a conversation so as to start
3:22
with what was the moment or maybe the feeling that made you
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realize this book needs to be written?
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Well, it was actually my own experience as you already set up
3:31
it in the introduction, because I was so overwhelmed as a mother
3:35
as well. And I'm, well actually just a
3:39
passionate person that loves very different things, but also
3:43
loves the brain. And I've been studying the brain
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for a while because I did a PhD in in neuro linguistics and I
3:51
was working on, yeah, language monitoring in patients that are
3:55
undergoing awake brain surgery for brain tumors.
3:58
So something very specific. But I also studied really the
4:01
plasticity of the brain in patients during my postdoc.
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And actually when becoming a mother of two young boys,
4:10
they're four and six right now, I just discovered some changes
4:14
in myself. I was like having a couple of
4:18
challenges, let's say, and not only physical challenges, but
4:22
also some mental challenges. And I always loved challenges,
4:25
and I was always pushing boundaries moving forward.
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Also living abroad for a couple of years in in the States for my
4:32
postdoc and for a health tech company.
4:35
So it's really someone, yeah, that really loved to work.
4:38
And that was kind of going fast. And my brain was always letting
4:41
me do that. But then after becoming a mother
4:44
of two sons, it, it suddenly felt like my brain was moving
4:47
backward and slowing down. And I became very curious about
4:51
the maternal brain. So I started researching and
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eventually wrote the book The Mother Brain Myths.
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But The funny thing was that actually for me as a
5:00
neuroscientist, I was really like in shock that I knew not a
5:04
lot about the maternal brain because the brain of a patient
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is not only plastic, but also the maternal brain is very
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plastic during matricins. And actually I never learned
5:15
about it during my studies, even not during my postdoc
5:18
neuroscience studies that I took in, in the States.
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So as I was really surprised about that.
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And I was like, if I don't know about that, then what with all
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the other people that don't have like an interest specifically in
5:30
the brain. And that's why I really found
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that it was important to write a book like this that was very
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open and easy to read for a large audience.
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Because of course I delved into all these research papers
5:44
because I'm used to do that. And there's a lot of new ones in
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this. And what you usually read and
5:50
press is kind of like a black and white view, which makes it
5:54
sometimes difficult to know what we need to believe and what what
5:58
is right. So what I really wanted to do
6:00
with this book was really to have a comprehensive overview of
6:04
what is really happening in the maternal brain, what is the
6:07
impact on our cognitive and emotional functions, but also
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what are women, what are mothers experiencing and how can we deal
6:17
with the challenges that we face because of certain social,
6:20
cultural factors. So I really wanted to bundle all
6:25
of that. So using minor scientific
6:28
expertise but also my experience as a mother and interviewing
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other mothers, I wanted to have that information available for a
6:35
wider audience, not just myself. In your book you highlight how
6:39
vital connection and support are for mothers brains, so for
6:42
immigrants living far from home, family and friends, often in a
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completely new country like us here in the Netherlands and
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without a strong support network, how does the distance
6:51
impact the brain and well-being? And what can we do to feel more
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supported even when we're feeling far from home?
6:57
Yeah, that's actually something I experienced myself as well
7:00
when I was living abroad. It's, yeah, it's really
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sometimes a lonely period. Although you have so many
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stimuli, so many new things going on, at some point you are
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missing some, like deep connections with friends.
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And it sometimes takes a while to build these connections
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abroad, but I think that's why, like, international communities
7:27
are creating online. International communities like
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yours are super valuable because it gives us a sense of belonging
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and it creates a place for people to talk about their
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challenges. And yeah, as I already said, the
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maternal brain is very plastic during matrescence, during this
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transition period from woman to to motherhood.
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And it's as plastic as the adolescent brain.
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And of course, plasticity is very good because it means that
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our brain is flexible, is able to adapt.
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But it also has another factor, which is during this period of
8:04
plasticity, the brain is also very vulnerable to a high level
8:09
of stress. And this stress can be linked to
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stress that was, yeah, associated with maybe some bird
8:16
issues or parenting issues, but also that is very associated
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with the social environment we live in.
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Meaning do we feel safe? Do we have financial stability?
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Do we have support or do we have to do it all alone?
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So I think these social factors are very important because they
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can contribute to a high level of stress.
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And we know that social support is just a very good buffer for
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psychological conditions such as post Natal depression.
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So I think it is really important.
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I think social support is really one of the most important things
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that we need to, yeah, make sure that we have and, and especially
8:58
for parents living with their kids abroad, because when I was
9:03
living in the States, it was still, let's say the two of us
9:06
and there were no kids. So I can only imagine the
9:08
challenges you have. So I think yeah, creating
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communities but also social support systems for people
9:15
living abroad is is super important.
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So building on that, many international mothers
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specifically face a double challenge.
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So they're adjusting to a new environment while navigating all
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the brain and identity changes that come with becoming a
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mother, I guess. So from your research, are there
9:29
any kind of strategies or support really that make a
9:32
difference in those layered situations?
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So yes, I think the, the, the small environment around the
9:39
mother is, is, is very important because what we do see is that
9:46
the mental load that mothers have is also an important
9:50
contributor to certain mental challenges that they face.
9:55
And I think what can already do is really be conscious about
10:00
these, the division of care. Let's say if you're with your
10:05
partner abroad, it's really important to think about all the
10:08
new tasks that are there because of parenting.
10:11
And although only think about the physical tasks, like, yeah,
10:15
who's doing the household, who's doing, who's taking care of the
10:18
kids? But also really what is behind
10:20
this task? What is the the mental or the
10:22
cognitive loads that you have? What are all the things that you
10:25
have to think of in your head that you have to organize?
10:28
What are all the worries you have?
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Because what we see from research is that there is a very
10:33
skewed division when you look at who is taking most of the mental
10:36
loads. So I think it's important to
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talk about this with your partner because high mental load
10:42
is really linked to poor mental well-being.
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So I think when thinking about prepping for parenthood, we
10:51
should not only think about really the physical test, but
10:54
really like who is thinking about all these little tasks
10:58
like what kids need to take to school or planning birthday
11:02
parties or whatever that we really take into account this
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mental load. Because this cognitive load is
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really a very important factor linked to the forgetfulness that
11:13
we often see in moms and that we often link to the changes in the
11:17
brain. But we should not, we should
11:20
actually start externalizing these challenges instead of
11:23
always looking into the brain. But we we will probably dive
11:27
into that later, like what is really changing in the brain and
11:30
what is the impact? Oh, you just jokingly there
11:33
mentioned the whole mom brain and how that usually gets used
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jokingly or dismissively in your book.
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You really reframed it though into a more positive light I
11:41
think. So what were some surprising or
11:43
beneficial ways our brains actually change when we become
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mothers? Yeah, so it is It is exactly
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always this mom brain is always reduced to this forgetfulness.
11:52
But in reality, the brain undergoes profound changes that
11:57
are actually positive and that are really adaptive and that
12:00
help supports caregiving and bonding.
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So it's it's not a degradation, but it's actually a
12:06
specialization. And it's really important we do
12:09
not overlook motherhoods as like positive changes to our
12:12
cognitive abilities because if we look at the literature, we
12:17
actually cannot find like big evidence for these memory
12:22
disabilities. OK, there are some sort of
12:25
little changes at the end of the pregnancy and, and immediately
12:29
postpartum because of course, when we learn a lot of new
12:32
skills, the cognitive load is high.
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So what happens? Our brain changes and it's
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adaptive. And it's really like focusing on
12:39
the essential part, really focusing on how to read the
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social cues and emotional cues of your baby.
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And at that time, your cognitive load is so high that it's going
12:52
to filter out about less important memories, such as
12:56
where did I put my keys? But actually what we see is if
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we hold on these cognitive challenges, we actually create
13:04
cognitive reserve. And it's actually a positive
13:07
story where you see that the brain of a mother and of parents
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is actually more flexible, more resilient, more responsive, more
13:15
efficient, and especially for social cognition, for functions
13:19
that are important to read social cues, to adapt to react
13:23
to those social cues in a very efficient and, and, and fast
13:27
way. So what we see if you look at
13:30
the literature is actually a totally different story.
13:33
We see all these cognitive strengths that we get as a
13:37
mother, to give you a couple of examples.
13:39
There are a lot of positive things that have been found with
13:43
regard to the executive functions, which are like
13:46
improved planning, greater flexibility, more focused work,
13:50
but as I already was saying, faster and more accurately
13:53
responses to baby signals and improved nonverbal communication
13:56
with the baby, but also an enhancement of perceptions.
14:00
Mothers are better at recognizing the emotions of the
14:04
faces of the baby, but also an improved tactile recognition and
14:07
even positive things have been found for memory.
14:11
We see improved memory for parenting related information
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and objects. So right after the bird, you see
14:17
that parents are very good at memorizing things like the, the
14:21
amount of powder or milk you need.
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But also at a later age, at 50 or 70, we find that mothers are
14:29
better than non mothers in visual memory and verbal memory.
14:33
And then there are a lot of other tasks that are a bit more
14:36
subtle, which we learn as parents, which are, for example,
14:40
more creative problem solving. If you think of all these
14:43
situation that you have as a parent where you also have to
14:46
make very, yeah, fast decisions under pressure because your kid
14:50
is, is running away and, and the other one is in the other
14:53
direction. So there are a lot of things
14:55
that we learn as parents that are actually undervalued also at
14:59
the work floor. So I, I think, well, that's
15:02
really my mission, to rewrite the, the narrative of this mom
15:06
brain and to stop always linking it to these changes in the
15:09
brain, but to start thinking about, OK, what is really
15:13
causing these these complaints because, OK, mothers experience
15:17
them. But there's a big difference
15:20
between what we find objectively and what we see subjectively and
15:25
what mothers experience subjectively.
15:27
And that's where we need to find, OK, what is causing these
15:30
subjective problems. Because objectively we actually
15:33
see a positive story, a positive story of improved cognitive
15:37
strengths, but also, yeah, a lot of positive impact on emotional
15:43
well-being and all these things. So that's really what I want to
15:46
rewrite. It's a positive story, but to be
15:50
able to have this positive story, we need to take care of
15:53
our mothers and to make sure that there's not this high level
15:57
of continued stress, which is, yeah, which is overwhelming our
16:01
mental load and which is actually causing this brain fog
16:05
that many mothers experience. You interviewed over 200 mothers
16:08
for this book. What were the common feelings or
16:10
experiences they shared about how their minds and identity
16:13
shifted after having children? They do experience some
16:17
cognitive complaints because as in the literature, I find
16:21
similar numbers, like 83% of mothers experience cognitive
16:25
complaints after pregnancy and 78% during pregnancy.
16:30
But as yeah, we don't find any, let's say, proof of these
16:34
complaints, we need to dive deeper.
16:37
And for example, there was this study that looked at
16:40
participants that completed memory tests both in the lab and
16:44
at home. And the results showed that
16:45
pregnant woman performed just as well in the lab, but worse at
16:49
home, which suggests that the additional mental load in daily
16:53
life impacts memory performance of mothers.
16:55
So there is proof that this mental load is an important
16:58
factor in in these, well, let's say brain fog because I don't
17:02
want to call it mom brain anymore.
17:04
That's what I want to say. And that's what I say in my book
17:06
as well. Let's stop using the word mom
17:09
brain to refer to these complaints.
17:11
But let's just use brain fog if you experience this, so we can
17:14
look at what is happening. And if I look at the numbers in
17:19
my survey, I also saw that 99% of my mother's said that they
17:24
experienced this mental load and actually 86% of them experienced
17:29
quite a lot of very high levels of mental loads.
17:31
So you see it everywhere. And then the question is how
17:34
come is the mental load so high these days?
17:36
And I think there are a number of factors there.
17:38
There are a lot of high number of mothers that are doing it
17:41
alone. This mental load is really
17:44
rising also because of the mother intensified ideologies,
17:48
these high standards that we create for mothers.
17:51
We have to do it all. We have to be perfect doing it
17:53
all. But also, yeah, some social,
17:55
cultural factors that are coming from, yeah.
17:59
How we see mothers, how we value motherhoods, how we talk about
18:02
motherhood, how we don't see it as an important transition, how
18:06
it's like, oh, it's something you can do easily because I also
18:09
write it in in my book. There was this quote
18:12
obstetrician handbook in 1848 where they said she woman has a
18:16
hat too small for intellect, but just big enough for love and
18:20
probably just big enough for mother love.
18:22
So there's this whole patriarchal idea around
18:26
motherhood and around well, it's not so hard to do.
18:30
And of course the narrative has changed, of course for good, but
18:34
there's still this under evaluation of motherhood.
18:37
So it's like, oh, it's something that is easy, mothers can just
18:40
do it. They don't need help, they don't
18:41
need support, they're just doing it anyway.
18:44
And then you have this high idealistic view of how well
18:47
mothers need to do it, whereas it should be about good
18:51
parenting, good enough parenting and not perfect parenting.
18:54
So I think all these things play a big role.
18:56
And it's also interesting to see that, yeah, the individualistic
19:01
culture we have in the, well definitely in our Western
19:05
countries such as the Netherlands and Belgium is also
19:07
playing a key role. Because there was this study as
19:10
well that looked at parental burnout numbers in like many,
19:15
many different countries. And they looked at different
19:17
factors that could play a role such as, yeah, individualistic
19:21
culture, but also how many kids they had, how many time they
19:24
spent with their kids, what the socio economic status was of
19:27
this country. And actually the surprising
19:30
thing was that the factor individualistic country was the
19:35
most contributing one to the number of well, to the
19:39
percentage of burnouts. So not really how much time you
19:43
spent with the kids or how many kids there were or socio
19:47
economic status. It was really like
19:49
individualistic culture. So the more individualistic the
19:53
culture was, the higher the percentage of parental burnout.
19:57
So I think, yeah, that's really an important factor that I, I
20:02
actually again, yeah, saw in all these responses of these
20:06
mothers. But there were many things that
20:08
I saw. Yeah.
20:09
There were also these emotional challenges that they faced
20:13
where, for example, the numbers of loneliness and guilt really
20:20
raised during pregnancy leave. And then when mothers were
20:25
returning back to work, percentages of high level of
20:28
stress doubled when they returned.
20:29
Learn to work. So all these things really show
20:32
that there's something kind of missing.
20:35
And actually, of course, it's contributing to this brain fog
20:38
that mothers experience because they're so overwhelmed.
20:41
And if you have to do it alone, if you don't have a lot of
20:43
support, if you have a lot of social cultural expectations,
20:48
then it's just too much for your brain.
20:50
And then of course, this brain fog is, is starting to come
20:53
because if I looked at how long they experienced this brain fog,
20:57
34% mentioned that they even had them until three years after
21:01
surgery. So it's, it's really crazy.
21:04
On the other hand, what was interesting though is that of
21:08
course, because of all these memes that we have in our social
21:13
media and press, such as I used to have functioning brain cells,
21:17
but I traded them for kids. It's also sort of they call it
21:22
the attribution bias. People are kind of also focused
21:25
on this. Yeah, Mother brain that is
21:28
failing. So everyone is really paying
21:30
attention to these negative things and it's sort of self
21:34
fulfilling prophecy. If if you focus on these things,
21:37
of course you will notice these things, but maybe you already
21:40
had them a bit before. But The thing is, if we start
21:44
focusing on the strengths, because I also asked the
21:46
mothers, like, can you think about the strengths that you
21:49
have? And then many mothers were
21:51
writing well, actually, now that you ask about it, there are
21:54
things that I do way better, just like prioritizing really
21:58
focused work and and really creative problem solving.
22:02
So when you ask about them and they think about it a bit
22:04
longer, they will find things. It's just also this, this
22:08
narrative. Of course it's not the only
22:11
factor, but you could see that in my interview as well, that
22:14
because of this history and this narrative that has been so
22:18
negative, sometimes people forget to think about the good
22:21
things as well. So I think that's also important
22:23
to to really start thinking differently.
22:25
OK, we have some issues, but think of all the strengths and
22:28
all the good things that your membrane brought.
22:31
You brought up there quite a few points there that I have
22:33
questions for as well. So one of them being the
22:36
terminology you spoke about the terminology of Mother Brain and
22:38
that how you don't want that to be used.
22:41
I did actually have is whether there really is a thing as
22:44
maternal instinct or if that's more of a myth.
22:48
And what does neuroscience say about intuition and the brain's
22:51
adaptation to motherhood? Yeah, so I would say maternal
22:54
instinct is a myth if you define it as something genetic that
23:00
makes sure that when your mom, you know immediately what to do.
23:04
This is really proven wrong by science because also the changes
23:09
in the brain, how they work, it's of course they start, you
23:12
have these structural changes that start during pregnancy.
23:16
But to take care of a baby, you need interaction with a baby.
23:21
You need to learn things, you need to create new connections
23:24
in your brain. And it's really this dynamic
23:27
long term process where interactions with your baby is
23:31
needed. And that's why we see these
23:33
changes as well in in fathers and in non biological mothers.
23:38
So this maternal instinct, it's not true, of course, because of
23:42
the time you spent with your kids, you will learn how to
23:47
react, how to adapt. And that's often something that
23:52
is mistaken for maternal instinct because of course, if
23:55
you as a mother spend most of the time with your kids very
23:58
close and your partner is not that present, then of course
24:03
it's, it's easy to say, well, it's the maternal instinct.
24:05
No, it's just because you spend a lot of quality time with your
24:08
baby that you learn and that you know how to react, that you can
24:11
read the signals of the baby so that you know what to do.
24:16
And that you know that this cry means angry.
24:18
This cry means I have some stomach issues.
24:22
So that's really what is happening.
24:25
Actually. It's a process that starts
24:27
during pregnancy but that continues after pregnancy
24:30
because of the interaction with the baby.
24:31
Similarly, with fathers, we see changes in the brain, structural
24:35
changes as well, functional changes, and they actually
24:38
already start during pregnancy of the partner.
24:41
And we see if the partner is very connected to the baby and
24:45
is talking a lot about it, we already see these changes
24:48
happening as well. But then after the birth, of
24:50
course, of course, when the father is spending a lot of
24:52
time, we see these changes as well.
24:54
So yes, maternal instinct is a myth.
24:57
Of course, there is something like maternal behavior, which
25:01
you could call maternal intuition because of course, you
25:04
spend a lot of time with the baby.
25:06
And as I'm saying, as a mother, you've been bombing a lot.
25:10
The baby has been in your belly if you're a biological mother.
25:13
So of course, as a mother, you know what is happening with your
25:16
kid. But to call it like maternal
25:18
instinct, as if if you're a mother, you know directly what
25:22
to do. No, of course, some situations
25:25
will be a good basis to learn fast and quick.
25:28
And some situations, for example, when there's a lot of
25:30
stress and there's, for example, a traumatic bird will make it
25:33
harder to have this good basis and it will go slower, this
25:37
learning process. But the maternal instinct really
25:39
something like, you know immediately what to do.
25:43
This is a myth. You mentioned earlier about
25:45
maternity leave and women in work environments.
25:48
There's a lot of talk about becoming a mother impacts our
25:51
professional lives, and research shows that many women experience
25:54
a significant drop in income and career momentum after having
25:57
children. So from your perspective, how
25:59
does motherhood shape identity and ambition?
26:02
And what do you think needs to shift socially or structurally
26:06
so that mothers can thrive both at home and at work?
26:09
That's an interesting question because I am, yeah, I'm thinking
26:12
about it a lot as well from my experience, because I'm very
26:16
ambitious. But at some points I was like,
26:18
really, this is not something I can combine.
26:21
But then reading about it, also looking at other cultures such
26:25
as Sweden and Norway, I see there are possibilities.
26:30
And I wrote this interesting article which was in in Dutch.
26:34
I'll say it in Dutch and then you can help me translate Boston
26:37
Mother Brain taking its class in platform like is the mother
26:41
brain going against this glass ceiling which we have?
26:44
And then a lot of experts reacted to that saying, no, it's
26:48
really social cultural patterns that are like getting in the
26:53
way. Meaning there's no proof that
26:57
the mother brain is not good enough to face these challenges
27:02
when being ambitious and wanted to make a career.
27:06
But it's actually because mothers need to fully adapt to
27:09
the work culture and not the other way around that we have
27:13
these issues. And that what I already said
27:16
that certain parental qualities such as higher social cognition,
27:21
better emotional intelligence are not really valued that we
27:25
have all these issues because there is no proof that the
27:28
mother brain is is not functioning well.
27:31
But it's just a social cultural structure that is just not
27:34
helping because we always see mothers as you have to work as
27:40
you're not a mother and you have to mother as you're not like
27:43
working. So it's really this, this, yeah,
27:46
issue of not being supportive of moms.
27:50
And I think there's a lot that can be done in the work culture
27:53
to make sure it is possible. Because if you look at Sweden
27:58
where you have, for example, all these systems in place, such as
28:01
you have this long parental leave that is also shared and
28:05
obliged. So that it makes sure that the
28:08
the partner being a mom or dad is also involved there the first
28:12
three months. So it's more shared the work and
28:15
there's more support. And then there's these
28:18
additional months that you can share with even grandparents or
28:21
other people. So it gives you this good basis,
28:25
good start to really be more relaxed and be, Yeah, let's say
28:30
have this brain rest which you need in the beginning to then
28:33
start and to then start fully with good intentions.
28:37
Because I have the feeling here, people feel guilty because they
28:41
have this so many months leave and then they feel as if they
28:46
need to return this back. And they also get all these
28:49
comments about this. So it doesn't help because you
28:52
feel like, oh, I'm already behind and now I have to catch
28:55
up with these months because our work culture doesn't like accept
29:00
this really. It's like, oh, they have this
29:02
maternity leave and then we do as if nothing happened.
29:07
We want them back. But you're still after three
29:09
months in the spirit of like sleep deprivation, a lot of
29:13
things that can happen, sick kids.
29:15
So this flexibility is really something we need as parents.
29:18
And I think there are some good examples of companies that do
29:22
have this parental friendly policy so that people can
29:26
thrive. And I'm not saying everyone
29:28
should do this, but it's more like if I would have the choice
29:33
and there's a good structure, I think I would maybe still work
29:39
as an employee and maybe not as a freelance or an independent.
29:45
I sometimes have the feeling mothers are like really pushed
29:48
away from like employee life because it's just not flexible
29:53
and it's just not created for parents.
29:56
And that was also the comment I got from, like, many, many
29:59
parents and many mothers in my interview.
30:03
It's like, yeah, the society is just not built for parents.
30:07
We don't have this structure. We don't have this village
30:09
support. We don't.
30:11
Yeah, we have all these issues with just good quality daycare
30:14
in Belgium and in the Netherlands as well.
30:16
But I think in Belgium it's even worse.
30:18
So there are all these different things that really don't help
30:21
and that sometimes make it impossible for women to choose.
30:25
And then they're saying like, oh, but now you don't have to
30:27
complain because we felt hard for emancipation, so don't
30:31
complain. So it's, it's really like, I
30:34
think it's a difficult story and I think it really starts with
30:37
creating this work culture so that parents can thrive in this
30:41
culture. And I'm sure if if we would have
30:43
a better culture that there would be more choice.
30:47
I think that's really the issue that I see with many women,
30:51
mothers, parents that they feel like they don't have a choice
30:54
and they either like work crazy hard and go into parental
30:58
burnout or they just decide themselves.
31:01
Like I'm not going to go into this rat race and I decide to
31:05
step out of like the career ladder or whatever.
31:08
But it's, is it really a choice? I sometimes feel like it's not a
31:12
choice, but like it's, it's just implicitly biased by all these
31:17
things like I don't have good quality of daycare, I don't have
31:22
the sport, I don't have this, I don't have this.
31:24
So I'm I'm not going for this promotion.
31:27
But actually if you would have this structure that helps you,
31:31
maybe you would want to go for promotion.
31:33
So I think that's really the thing.
31:35
Do we really have the choice or is it like an implicit bias
31:39
because of we're not really well surrounded to make this as a
31:44
conscious choice? What do I want with my career?
31:47
I have to definitely say that that's something that I feel
31:49
like I do see that here in Amsterdam specifically, because
31:52
I noticed that there's a lot of moms who tend to back away from
31:55
their company and set up their own.
31:57
So they become a freelancer and usually in the realm of helping
32:01
support other mothers because usually they needed some help
32:05
and now they want to give that back to the community.
32:07
So I have noticed that why are we having to stop?
32:10
And it's usually because, as you say, it's an environment in work
32:13
that they're not feeling welcome to go back.
32:16
And equally it's a case of we didn't have the support.
32:19
So you're on a one scale of I don't have support and one scale
32:22
I'm not even supported in work either.
32:23
Let me give back and care for the mothers and be part of the
32:25
village or be part of the community to feedback into that.
32:29
Yeah. So it does have a very positive
32:32
side. I do agree that I think it's
32:34
really nice to see that a lot of women, mothers, parents are
32:38
really going for these initiatives.
32:40
Like we now have these re villaging initiatives we're I'm
32:43
part of. So there's a lot of there's a
32:45
lot happening. So it has a good side as well.
32:48
But sometimes I feel like, yeah, is it really a choice?
32:51
And I think that's sad that some people don't really have the
32:54
choice. And I think it could be a
32:56
choice, but it is, yeah, it is leading to some very nice
33:00
initiatives, which recently I also met someone who is now
33:04
creating this daycare solution during holidays at the company's
33:08
site. So I mean, I think if we indeed
33:12
think creative, there are a lot of things possible.
33:14
And we shouldn't always look at like very old structures, but
33:18
look at very creative ways. And that's nice to see how the
33:21
pain sometimes provides something bigger.
33:24
And I think with my experience, it was about it's a bit similar.
33:28
It's like you face a lot of challenges and then you start
33:30
researching, you start reading and and you are like, why can I
33:35
not share this with a bigger community?
33:37
So they learn from it as well. So I think that's really nice
33:40
that you see that. Yeah, our mother brain, our
33:43
parental brain is very flexible and resilient and can handle a
33:46
lot of things. Yeah.
33:48
Create nice new environments. Your book also highlights that
33:52
these brain changes aren't just for biological mothers.
33:55
They also happen in fathers, adoptive parents, and
33:58
caregivers. Can you walk us through what's
33:59
happening in the brain for all these parents and how it plays
34:02
out day-to-day? Yes.
34:03
So there's a lot happening. I already mentioned structural
34:07
changes, functional changes. So there's one thing for sure,
34:10
the brain changes and we can really see it in the structure
34:13
of the brain even until six years after surgery.
34:16
And the neuroscientist, the researcher that is really
34:19
focusing a lot in the Netherlands on the maternal
34:22
brain is Elzaline Huxuma. And she's even saying that now
34:26
they'll have these brain scans of mothers that they saw 15
34:30
years ago until now. So maybe within a couple of
34:34
months or a year, we will have this study where they see, we
34:36
can even see structural changes until 15 years after surgery.
34:40
That's because of my specific. Can I just check when you say
34:44
surgery do you mean birth? No, Yeah, exactly.
34:47
That's what I was saying. It's just my specific research
34:50
interest. I mean, birds, Yeah.
34:52
Yeah. So.
34:52
But what is not changing? Actually, there was a recent
34:55
study where they followed one woman with 26 very precise brain
35:01
scans before pregnancies because she has an IVF baby.
35:05
I don't know if it's the same in English.
35:07
Yeah, until two years after. And they saw there were so many
35:10
parts in the brain that were changing.
35:12
So what are the most common things we see structurally?
35:16
So what we see is during pregnancy and after childbirths,
35:20
certain brain areas, which we call grey matter that are
35:23
important for responding to a baby's needs are shrinking.
35:27
And that also didn't help because some people immediately
35:30
linked this to this brain fog and this forgetfulness.
35:33
Oh, our brain is shrinking. So it means our brain is is
35:36
getting Dumber. But actually, if you look at the
35:38
brain region, regions that are shrinking, they are linked to
35:41
the theory of mind, which the ability to understand that other
35:45
people have their own thoughts, feelings, beliefs and
35:47
perspectives. So it's basically putting
35:49
yourself in someone else's shoes mentally.
35:52
So it's basically showing that when the brain shrinks, it's
35:55
specializing, it's fine tuning, and it's making sure that you're
36:00
able to respond to a baby's needs.
36:02
So that's one thing we see, but at the same time, what we see is
36:05
there's an increase in the volume of white matter tracts.
36:08
And white matter tracts are the connections that, yeah, connect
36:12
different brain regions. And what we observed during
36:14
pregnancy, there is an improved communication between those
36:18
regions and those regions that are responsible for visual and
36:21
emotional processing. So they work Better Together.
36:25
So we're not only seeing shrinkage, but we're also seeing
36:28
an improvement in these connections between the regions.
36:32
And then what we see postpartum is that these grey matter areas
36:37
that shrinked are now increasing again.
36:39
And this is linked to them learning new skills, which you
36:43
need for parenting. And I said the structural
36:45
changes can be observed to many years after childbirth.
36:49
And there are even researchers suggesting that there there
36:51
might be lifelong changes. So that's one part, the
36:53
structural changes. And then we have functional
36:56
changes. Functional changes or changes in
36:58
the brain function or activity. And how do you measure that?
37:01
Well, when you have a mother or a parent, they go in their
37:06
scanner, an MRI scanner. But you have this functional MRI
37:09
scanner which detects activity in the brain while you're doing
37:13
certain tasks. For example, you're looking at
37:17
crying babies or happy babies. And then they look at what is
37:21
happening in your brain, which regions become very active.
37:24
And what what they find in general is that the mother's
37:27
brain is very active. So we see increased brain
37:30
activity in regions that are in important for emotional
37:33
processing in in brain networks because the brain actually works
37:37
in a network, not only brain regions, but these connections
37:40
combined with the brain regions. There's certain brain networks
37:43
such as the motivation and reward network.
37:46
They become more active when they respond to infant cues.
37:48
So that's what we're seeing. Mothers are more active
37:51
responding to to babies and we see these functional changes and
37:58
structural changes not only in mothers but also in fathers and
38:02
non biological mothers. And as I already was saying a
38:05
bit, even during pregnancy of the partner, when the father is
38:09
very connected to the baby and attached, we see these changes
38:13
as well. And then with interaction with
38:15
the child we see it as well. What is the difference?
38:17
Well, of course the biological mothers have sort of a nine
38:21
months, a very deep connection with the baby.
38:24
So these changes we see parents are fathers are a bit more
38:28
subtle and are really depending on the time and the interaction
38:33
they have with the baby. So the more they interact with
38:35
the baby, the bigger the changes.
38:37
So there are many studies actually that look at, for
38:40
example, mother and fathers, but also homosexual relationships
38:45
between two fathers and what they see.
38:47
If these fathers are actually the primary carer, then we see
38:50
similar changes between the mother who is the primary carer
38:53
and for example, a homosexual couple where the father is the
38:57
primary carer. And it doesn't really depend if
38:59
the father is then the biological one or not.
39:01
They see these changes in both of them because they're equally
39:04
very involved in parenting. So that's where we see that the
39:09
interaction is really something that is necessary for parenting
39:13
and also to induce these changes in the brain.
39:16
So that's why we actually talk about the parental caregiving
39:19
network in science. We don't really talk about the
39:22
mother brain or the father brain.
39:23
There is really this network of brain regions that are universal
39:28
for parents and that are of course influenced by the time
39:33
the interaction you have with the kid.
39:34
The more you interact with the kids, the higher the quality of
39:37
this time you spent with the kids, the more those regions
39:40
will change and the more those region will adapt to parenting,
39:44
making sure you yeah, you can learn fast.
39:48
Incredible. There's so many questions I want
39:50
to ask, but I also have to be keeping an eye on the time.
39:52
With your expertise in neuroscience and language, did
39:55
you notice any changes in how new parents communicate or
39:58
think, especially during those early, intense months?
40:01
Yeah, I think what I already mentioned a bit with the
40:03
cognitive strengths and the emotional strengths is that
40:07
parents are really better at certain things like nonverbal
40:11
communication because they rely more on facial expression, stone
40:15
gesture, touch, which are really crucial for bombing and
40:18
understanding the needs of their baby.
40:21
And also I think they really have this increased emotional
40:24
expressiveness in in their language.
40:27
There's often more emotional new ones and sensitivity in their
40:30
communication. Yeah.
40:31
And these changes in the brain areas that are tied to empathy
40:34
and social cognition make parents more attuned to
40:37
emotional cues, which reflects in how they talk.
40:39
So they really have these good communication skills that go way
40:43
beyond just communicating, but really the emotional part of
40:48
communicating as well. So finally, you argue that
40:51
supporting parents mental well-being is a community
40:53
responsibility, not just a personal one.
40:55
What are some practical, simple ways that friends, family or
40:58
workplaces can step in to help lighten the load for parents?
41:02
I think the quote that I really like and I used in my book as
41:05
well is Halt a mother, not just a baby, because that's something
41:09
we kind of often forget in these societies is we're always super
41:14
interested in in the mother. And then we we go and visit it
41:17
and we ask about the child and we want to take care of the
41:20
child and we want to carry the child.
41:22
But I think it's really important to ask about the
41:25
mother and to ask about how she's doing and how she's really
41:28
doing and what about her brain? Is she like experiencing
41:31
forgetfulness? Yeah.
41:33
How can we support her so that you really think about the mom
41:37
first, because so important also for the well-being of the child
41:41
is, is the well-being of the mother.
41:44
And, and then of course, I think factors like the division of
41:48
care, but also how society talks about these things.
41:52
Like, I think it's, it's really good to stimulate people to
41:57
react to certain myths that are being set.
42:01
Like if you say, oh, she will know how to breastfeed because
42:04
her maternal instinct will kick in.
42:06
It's like, no, it's not working like this.
42:09
It's like, no, it might be challenging.
42:11
And it depends on many factors. Is are there ways to help?
42:14
Or if a mom goes back to work and they say like, oh, she had
42:18
these three months of holidays, like now she should, yeah, work
42:22
faster. I mean, like, no, don't say
42:24
that. Like people should react to
42:26
that. I think that would be nice that
42:28
people don't just shut down. But if they know if they have
42:31
the knowledge or if even if they experience it, I think that can
42:33
already be a good argument to say, well, my wife experienced
42:37
it very different, differently. It's kind of hard are things
42:40
like, oh, it's again, her mommy brain can say, well, I know the
42:43
brain, the mother brain is capable of doing a lot of
42:46
things, but maybe there is a lot in her head going on.
42:49
There's a lot of mental load. So like, how can we help?
42:52
So really, I think as a society, as like people, we can just like
42:57
support the mother, but also react to certain comments to, to
43:01
really get rid of those, those myths that are being there for
43:05
like so many years. So I think that's an important
43:07
one. And I think at the workplace, as
43:09
I already said, I think being aware of the challenges that
43:12
parents have is the first step to go and talk with your
43:15
parents. And really before the baby is
43:17
coming. Not like when the baby is there,
43:19
because when a mother is so overwhelmed and going back to
43:22
work with yeah, with sleep deprivation, if you then say
43:25
like, how can I help? I mean, they're already in the
43:28
state of I don't know what, what can help.
43:30
It's, it's better to really be prepared and really have like a
43:34
parent friendly policy before the baby is coming because you
43:37
never know how it's gonna be. And I think it's really about
43:41
having this conversation with your employees, really thinking
43:44
about, OK, if you go back to work, we have these different
43:48
options. We thought about it like some
43:50
people like to start slowly with one project or some people like
43:55
to have some support for colleagues.
43:57
So you kind of show that there are ways to support the mother
44:00
and that you really thought about it and that you can give
44:03
them examples because, yeah, sometimes they're just too
44:06
overwhelmed to even say what they need.
44:09
So it's really about like preparing for this and to
44:13
evaluate and to talk. I think communication is really
44:16
key and to not underestimate the skills that we have and learn as
44:21
parents that are valuable for the word floor.
44:24
So I think all of these factors can really contribute and
44:27
they're way more, of course, but I think these are the ones that
44:31
I'm thinking of now. As I recall in my early days and
44:34
having spoken to other people, it's not a case of turning
44:37
around saying what can we do for you?
44:38
It's much easier to say I'm doing this or we can do this and
44:42
just giving them them options to them make their own decision
44:44
with because as you say with brain fog or just being
44:48
overwhelmed, we can't come up with any suggestions.
44:51
Yeah, exactly. No, I think that's really
44:53
important, yeah. Well, thank you so much, Doctor
44:55
Vitt for joining us today and for sharing your incredible
44:58
insights into neuroscience of motherhood and parenting more
45:02
broadly. Wishing you look on your book
45:04
tour. I'm sure you're being asked in
45:06
every single realm there is to discuss what's going on right
45:09
now, and hopefully we'll be able to get this book in English.
45:12
Yeah, well, yeah, that might be the next step.
45:16
So hopefully soon. But also if if you want more
45:20
information, I'm actually actually creating an English
45:22
version of my website now, which is www.alkadivita.com.
45:28
So soon there will be more information in English there as
45:30
well which will be linked to my social media.
45:32
So if there are any updates on an English book, you will be
45:35
able to find it there. That's fantastic.
45:37
Thank you so much for joining us.
45:39
Thank you so much for inviting me.