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068: How the Civil War Transformed California | Author James Tejani · California Frontier

• 0:00
  The Civil War in California ends up really being important politically and economically by creating huge opportunities for Californians, California landowners.
• 0:14
  The Civil War story of supply into the Southwest, I think, tells us a lot about California's transformation from what it had been in the Gold Rush period to what it's going to be through the industrial decades of the late 19th century.
• 0:38
  Damian Bacich: You mentioned, uh, the railroad and, and how that fed into this whole situation.
• 0:45
  Damian Bacich: And, you know, growing up in California, my, you know, we think about the railroads a lot and, and they were a huge part of our history.
• 0:52
  Damian Bacich: My, my grandfather worked for the Southern Pacific in San Francisco, right?
• 0:56
  Damian Bacich: So it's part of my, personal history.
• 1:00
  Damian Bacich: But.
• 1:02
  Damian Bacich: One of the things that your book brings out is the whole, but you just mentioned the whole controversy around how the transcontinental railroad was going to go across the continent.
• 1:14
  Damian Bacich: And it brings in another story, which once again, growing up in California, I didn't think very much of as something particular to California, which was a civil war Um, in your book, you really kind of detail how much the civil war was impacting California.
• 1:35
  Damian Bacich: Could you talk a little bit more about that?
• 1:38
  James Tejani: Yeah, I think that was a major objective of the book.
• 1:42
  James Tejani: And there's been, um, In the last decade, decade and a half, there's been quite a lot of new, exciting work on connecting the, the both the sectional conflict in the lead up of the Civil War, lead up to the Civil War and the Civil War itself, uh, to the American West and to California.
• 2:04
  James Tejani: And so that was very much on my mind in writing the book.
• 2:07
  James Tejani: I think I ended up surprised at how much of a connection I found there.
• 2:14
  James Tejani: And, you know, the real, I think, the gist of the, the thrust of the argument there is that this question of the Pacific Railroad and where it was going to be placed, um, that certainly was, um, the single, alongside the question of federal territories, but that also is tied to the railroad, federal territories in the West.
• 2:41
  James Tejani: Um, this, this is the defining and divisive question in Congress in the 1850s, is this question of where to put a transcontinental railroad.
• 2:51
  James Tejani: Uh, you know, at the time, they really only imagined building one because the costs are going to be so immense and it's going to take so long by their calculations.
• 3:00
  James Tejani: Uh, and so where exactly it's going to be placed and how that will advantage certain people.
• 3:06
  James Tejani: Sections of the country over others or certain, um, uh, kind of metro areas, cities that are trying to become commercially dominant.
• 3:15
  James Tejani: Um, this becomes the big fight in Congress.
• 3:18
  James Tejani: Uh, and, um, you know, it's, it's going to determine where Western settlement happens and, and how territories develop.
• 3:25
  James Tejani: And that's really where the question of Well, will these territories have slavery or not comes into the, into the, um, into the issue as well.
• 3:34
  James Tejani: Um, and I think what I, what I found is that this question, it, it is a question of Western exploration and Western settlement, but it ultimately has everything to do with California and the Pacific coast.
• 3:49
  James Tejani: Uh, because once you get the gold rush.
• 3:52
  James Tejani: California is the place that everybody knows the railroad somehow has to get to.
• 3:57
  James Tejani: And the various urban areas and sections north and south that want the railroad to connect to them, they are thinking about the gold and on top of that they are also thinking about the Pacific Coast Commerce.
• 4:14
  James Tejani: And so, um, Everybody knows this railroad is going to reach California and everybody knows that it needs a Pacific Coast harbor that has to be on the California coast as well.
• 4:25
  James Tejani: And so California is really becoming determinative in this great divisive congressional question.
• 4:32
  James Tejani: And there's even, you can even see this in how the Pacific Railroad surveys are designed where Secretary of War Davis, uh, he creates a number of surveys that are essentially running across latitudes through the western United States, but he has a specific survey just for California, just for the, to figure out where the railroad's going to cross into the state.
• 4:56
  James Tejani: And I think that tells us how important and how, how decisive California really was going to be in this, um, this tremendous issue that if you only look at the eastern United States, Seems to just be about North and South, uh, but no, it's about California.
• 5:12
  James Tejani: And so, um, that's what pulls the Coast Survey into the story of sectionalism and the lead up to the Civil War.
• 5:20
  James Tejani: And as I mentioned, it's going to be, for the Coast Survey, a very tragic story because the Coast Survey really believed that science and mapping could prevent that.
• 5:29
  James Tejani: They were really thinking that they could unite the country, North and South, and they did.
• 5:34
  James Tejani: By developing coastal commerce that both, both sections could be, could have access to.
• 5:40
  James Tejani: So it's going to be a tragic story for them, but it's also going to pull in people like Edward Ord and Manuel Dominguez, who, as they see a real estate boom.
• 5:53
  James Tejani: Opportunity in the development of a coastal harbor for the Transcontinental Railroad at San Pedro Bay.
• 5:58
  James Tejani: They get caught up in the, um, in the profit motive and that's ultimately going to pull their friendship apart, especially as Ord tries to get, uh, and succeeds at getting that inside track on Dominguez and claiming the San Pedro Estuary for the federal government.
• 6:14
  James Tejani: Um, and he pulls it kind of right out from Dominguez's estate without Dominguez's, uh, approval.
• 6:23
  James Tejani: Um, and so, so this sectional conflict, um, has everything to do not just with California but events around Los Angeles.
• 6:33
  James Tejani: Um, and where that's going to go during the Civil War, and is really, um, how San Peter Bay is first going to be used as a harbor.
• 6:44
  James Tejani: So did you want me to, to talk a little bit about the, the war itself as well?
• 6:49
  Damian Bacich: Yeah, please do.
• 6:50
  James Tejani: Um, so, so what you, uh, what you have by the end of the 1850s is that the Pacific Railroad issue becomes so divisive that it is, it's essentially left undecided.
• 7:03
  James Tejani: Congress just can't, uh, can't, determine a single route and, um, the United States is going to end up with, with, um, with divided government, uh, around that issue and around the issue of slavery and, um, the, the Democratic Party is going to fracture, uh, the Whig Party fractures and then becomes the Republican Party, um, and that's ultimately going to set up the 1860 election.
• 7:32
  James Tejani: where the Republican Party and Lincoln win.
• 7:35
  James Tejani: And when the Civil War breaks out as a reaction to that presidential election, that very divided presidential election, and the southern states, uh, you know, being unwilling to accept the, the outcomes of that election, um, what essentially happens is that the, the, the war briefly takes the focus off the West and places like California, which I think explains a lot about why these Western places and California places dropped out of the Civil War mythology and story so quickly in the aftermath in the 19th century when the story was starting to be crafted and written.
• 8:21
  James Tejani: But what I found looking at the history of San Pedro Bay is that The legacy of the 1850s, the co survey mapping of the, um, San Pedro Santa Barbara, uh, channel and, uh, Edward Ord's work in, um, surveying as part of that project but on the side, um, managing to pull this piece of property out from under Manuel Dominguez, uh, the San Pedro estuary property that Ord He's interested in speculating as a, as a waterfront harbor property.
• 9:02
  James Tejani: Uh, that ultimately is going to set up what happens in California, in Southern California, particularly during the Civil War.
• 9:09
  James Tejani: Because Ord's work is going to, um, Ord and Dominguez's work, um, but particularly Ord's work is going to become essential to the, the first speculative Harbor operation within the San Pedro estuary, which becomes the, the town of Wilmington.
• 9:27
  James Tejani: Uh, and Phineas Banning becomes the entrepreneur that is, he's sort of the, uh, the, the Svengali behind, behind the Wilmington operation by the 1860s.
• 9:38
  James Tejani: Uh, well, Phineas Banning already, by being a shipping entrepreneur, he had, um, he starts as a, As a entrepreneur in the wagon and kind of the interior wagon, um, freighting business.
• 9:52
  James Tejani: Uh, and then from there he's going to branch out into offloading ships at Wilmington.
• 9:59
  James Tejani: Uh, with that business already in place, uh, by 1861 62.
• 10:05
  James Tejani: Banning, um, he's already become a federal, a U.
• 10:10
  James Tejani: S.
• 10:11
  James Tejani: Army contractor.
• 10:13
  James Tejani: So that when the Civil War breaks out and Confederate armies from Texas invade New Mexico territory in the Rio Grande Valley, uh, intending to get to the gold fields of California, but Colorado as well, the U.
• 10:32
  James Tejani: S.
• 10:32
  James Tejani: Army, although it initially had kind of taken its focus off California and Southern California, very quickly realizes that they need, um, They need additional ways to defend and liberate New Mexico once the Confederates start to take more and more of the Rio Grande Valley.
• 10:52
  James Tejani: And so Banning, who was already on their radar as a contractor, he very quickly begins to secure U.
• 11:00
  James Tejani: S.
• 11:00
  James Tejani: Army contracts, both to build up the U.
• 11:04
  James Tejani: S.
• 11:04
  James Tejani: in the Los Angeles area, uh, where There really had been no army presence since the U.
• 11:11
  James Tejani: S.
• 11:12
  James Tejani: Mexico war, but Southern California becomes very heavily garrisoned late 1861 into early 1862.
• 11:23
  James Tejani: So Banning becomes part of the supply chain for that, and then he's going to become part of the supply chain when those federal armies begin pushing into the desert, into the Sonoran deserts, uh, trying to reach New Mexico.
• 11:38
  James Tejani: Uh, in time to save it.
• 11:39
  James Tejani: Uh, and they get there too late.
• 11:41
  James Tejani: The Battle of Glorieta Pass has already happened.
• 11:45
  James Tejani: Uh, and, um, but nonetheless banning supply chain.
• 11:49
  James Tejani: Uh, the supply chain running from the, the estuary at San Pedro Bay is going to be critical to that offensive.
• 11:55
  James Tejani: Uh, and then it's going to be, remain critical as that offensive eventually becomes about.
• 12:00
  James Tejani: uh, subjugating groups like the Navajo and the Apache.
• 12:04
  James Tejani: And what that tells us, I think, about the California story more generally is that, um, the Civil War in California ends up really being important politically and economically, um, by creating huge opportunities for Californians, California landowners.
• 12:28
  James Tejani: Anglos, but also Mexican property owners, to begin engaging with the Union government by being loyal to the Union, supplying beef, supplying sheep, supplying horses, supplying wagons and freight like Banning, and even going so far as Supplying things like a Central Pacific Railroad, so the the the big four of the Central Pacific Company, Leland Stanford, Collis Huntington, they are going to be also part of this economy of union loyalty that becomes so decisive and I think in shifting California's history Um, not just in keeping it loyal to the Union and building things like the, uh, the, uh, the Central Pacific Railroad and then eventually the Southern Pacific Railroad, which kind of follows Banning's tracks into the desert, but is also decisive in terms of, um, who are going to become sort of the, the, uh, rising economic and political forces in California.
• 13:42
  James Tejani: Yeah.
• 13:43
  James Tejani: into the 1870s and 1880s.
• 13:45
  James Tejani: And so the Civil War story of supply into the Southwest I think tells us a lot about California's transformation from what it had been in the Gold Rush period to what it's going to be through the industrial decades of the late 19th century.
• 14:02
  Damian Bacich: Yeah, what you, uh, what you mentioned about the, uh, the war in New Mexico, for example, and how that was going to become sort of a, a war to subjugate, um, the native, um, nations there, uh, Navajo, Apache, et cetera, Mojave.
• 14:24
  Damian Bacich: Um, it's interesting that, that there are, well, There are three groups in this story that are always sort of a wild card vis a vis the U.
• 14:34
  Damian Bacich: S.
• 14:34
  Damian Bacich: government and, um, um, U.
• 14:37
  Damian Bacich: S.
• 14:37
  Damian Bacich: expansionists and their interests, which are the Californios, the Mexican Californians, which we've talked a lot about.
• 14:45
  Damian Bacich: Um, but then also the Native peoples, you know, play this role of, of, of being sort of a, um, like I said, a wild card, a, never quite sure how to deal with them.
• 15:00
  Damian Bacich: And then there's one other group, which is the Mormons, the Church, Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, who also is there, um, in the wings, and they're not quite sure where their loyalties lie, etc.
• 15:15
  Damian Bacich: Could you talk a little bit about particular Native Americans, and then also, um, the LDS?
• 15:24
  James Tejani: Yeah, a very good question.
• 15:26
  James Tejani: So, um, I think, you know, this is really critical to understanding Why the U.
• 15:34
  James Tejani: S.
• 15:35
  James Tejani: government in 1861, 1862 is so concerned about what might happen in the West and in California even though so much of the the Civil War itself and the big battles is going to be far away in the East.
• 15:49
  James Tejani: There really are so many moving pieces and as you said wild cards.
• 15:54
  James Tejani: Uh, in terms of what might happen, uh, out in California and the West, um, with these, these groups that, um, they have tense relationships with the United States, or at least unsettled relationships with the United States government, with the United States conquest, um, going back to the 1840s, uh, with the United States Army, um, and the, the Lincoln government is really trying to predict Where these moving pieces will land, where these wild cards, how they'll ultimately break in this question of Are they going to side with the Confederacy?
• 16:31
  James Tejani: Are they going to go their own way but cause so much chaos?
• 16:36
  James Tejani: that it's going to decisively tip what happens in the east with the Civil War.
• 16:41
  James Tejani: It's, um, in some ways analogous to the, um, the suspense over the upper south and the border states, uh, through much of 1861.
• 16:51
  James Tejani: Places like Kentucky, what are they going to do?
• 16:53
  James Tejani: Where are they going to side?
• 16:55
  James Tejani: Uh, the Lincoln government, the Union army, um, so much of their strategy depends on Kentucky being loyal, but they don't know whether Kentucky is going to be loyal or neutral or not.
• 17:07
  James Tejani: So that that's happening and then you also have the question of European powers and their loyalty and that extends even to northern Mexico, Chihuahua and Sonora, are they going to be taking sides here?
• 17:22
  James Tejani: And so Native Americans.
• 17:24
  James Tejani: Uh, and the, um, the, the LDS and the government, or the people of Utah, the, the, um, the true, uh, people in charge in Utah, rather than the federal appointees, they are all part of this question of, of, um, you know, how the Lincoln government is going to be able to put out fires before they begin and kind of secure loyalty, um, so that it can focus on the war, you know, in the trans Mississippi, uh, uh, Theater and, and, uh, Northern Virginia.
• 17:56
  James Tejani: Um, and so the, uh, the LDS and the, the Mormons, you know, they had had to leave the United States, um, but in, initially New York, but then the Illinois, Missouri, uh, frontier because of tremendous religious pro persecution, uh, even, you know, orders of extermination that were given against them.
• 18:18
  James Tejani: So they're, they face tremendous violence.
• 18:20
  James Tejani: And so they, there's this.
• 18:21
  James Tejani: Very tense, hostile relationship, um, and when they moved to the Salt Lake area in 1847, you know, Utah is going to be organized as a U.
• 18:35
  James Tejani: S.
• 18:35
  James Tejani: territory, and I think the LDS had an ambivalent, um, relationship in terms of how they saw themselves as part of the United States, and yet not But they, I think, wanted to put as much distance between them, uh, themselves and, uh, the, the gentile, uh, U.
• 18:55
  James Tejani: S.
• 18:55
  James Tejani: settlers who might visit, uh, visit violence upon them again.
• 19:00
  James Tejani: And the gold rush really starts to, um, threaten them in that it's starting to put overland migrants coming across through Utah territory to reach.
• 19:12
  James Tejani: California.
• 19:12
  James Tejani: And so there are, you know, there are these violent incidents, things like the Mountain Meadows Massacre, that begin to inflame the relationship of Mormons and, um, against the United States government and non Mormon settler populations.
• 19:28
  James Tejani: So that is still very much live in the 1861 62 period.
• 19:33
  James Tejani: Utah's is going to eventually, uh, you very clearly, you know, declare its loyalty to the union.
• 19:40
  James Tejani: But for the brief moment, there was, there was quite a lot of tension and that inflamed resentment all the more.
• 19:46
  James Tejani: And we see that kind of showing up in California.
• 19:49
  James Tejani: Californians worried about this.
• 19:51
  James Tejani: California is, California is expressing anti Mormon Sentiments and, and, and hatred.
• 19:57
  James Tejani: It's all part of this, this, this history of, of, um, populations and their experiences with, with each other on the frontier.
• 20:06
  James Tejani: Um, and, um, Native Americans, uh, are, have a similar story, especially, um, uh, you know, the groups that, the, the tribes that were deemed hostiles.
• 20:22
  James Tejani: So kind of the non pastoral tribes of the Southwest who had shown much more capacity to resist settlers and the U.
• 20:34
  James Tejani: S.
• 20:34
  James Tejani: Army in the 1840s and 1850s.
• 20:38
  James Tejani: They are very much a wild card as well and Californians, you know, for that brief moment in 1861 62, they are imagining that somehow secessionists, Mormons, hostile Native American groups, Californians who are of a secessionist impulse, uh, Mexican Californians, that all these groups that are kind of had been subject to tense relationships or asymmetrical economic relationships, uh, subject to racial discrimination.
• 21:19
  James Tejani: and even violence, that there's this brief, very interesting moment in California history where Californians are, some Californians are imagining that all those groups are going to rise up together against them
• 21:32
  Damian Bacich: Right.
• 21:33
  James Tejani: and just, smash the settler project in California.
• 21:38
  James Tejani: And I think that, that, that's the gist of what you're getting at is this, these, this kind of nightmarish scenario that Californians, particularly Unionists in California, are so terrified of and that becomes a really important shaper in the in the San Pedro Bay story because it's going to set up the the military shipments and garrison of Southern California that is really for the first time going to make San Pedro Bay a a lucrative port and a port that's on the radar of the federal government in Washington.
• 22:18
  Damian Bacich: Yeah, it's really fascinating and maybe, um, as a way of bookending the story, I felt that in reading about, well, when we get to the Spanish American War and the U.
• 22:36
  Damian Bacich: S.
• 22:38
  Damian Bacich: conquest of the Philippines, that, It feels like, and correct me if I'm wrong, it feels like the, the project has, has really reached its, um, apex in the sense that it almost seems like the, the U.
• 22:56
  Damian Bacich: S.
• 22:57
  Damian Bacich: as an imperial power now, has supplanted what Spain was trying to do, you know, a couple of hundred years earlier by setting up, trying to set up ports and, uh, military outposts on the Pacific coast of California, especially to, um, support and protect trade with the Far East, the Philippines, ultimately China.
• 23:21
  Damian Bacich: Can you, um, bring us into this era of, um, You know, Spanish American War, U.
• 23:29
  Damian Bacich: S.
• 23:29
  Damian Bacich: as a, as a power on the Pacific and, and actually ultimately a global power leading into World War I.
• 23:39
  James Tejani: Yeah, it's, it's, um, I, I like the way you framed that question.
• 23:43
  James Tejani: Uh, I, I was listening yesterday to your, uh, your segment with, uh, Eric Plunkett on, uh, exploration on the California coast by, by the Spanish empire and Um, you know, this trans pacific project that the Spanish were engaging in the 16th and 17th century, uh, connecting, uh, California places, uh, places on the western coast of Mexico to the Philippines and the Far East, um, you know, I think certainly the United States becomes the, the heir to that, um, in the 19th century.
• 24:22
  James Tejani: And it's, um, You know, the, the conquest, the U.
• 24:28
  James Tejani: S.
• 24:28
  James Tejani: conquest of the Philippines in 1898 alongside Cuba, um, in the Caribbean, it's, it's it's such a, um, it's such an interesting parallel and I, you know, it's such an interesting symbol, whether it was intended as a symbol or not, or simply just kind of opportunity.
• 24:50
  James Tejani: Um, but the, um, The United States, you know, certainly at that point had developed the, um, it's, it had secured and consolidated its expansion in the West, um, and the, uh, subjugation of, of the last kind of rebel native tribes, um, by the 1890s, um, on the plains and in the southwest and, um, its Pacific ambitions, which I think had been there from the very beginning in the 1840s, um, the foundational pieces are now in place to realize that in, in, in a true way.
• 25:39
  James Tejani: Uh, and so I have a, I have a line that in the book, um, that, you know, uh, that Americans had always.
• 25:47
  James Tejani: They had always imagined Pacific Empire.
• 25:50
  James Tejani: That was, that had always been part of their expansion into the west, into places like California.
• 25:55
  James Tejani: But by the time you get to the late 19th century, they can actually do it.
• 26:00
  James Tejani: They can actually marshal military and naval power, coaling stations, um, they can marshal supplies from western economies that are, that are developed enough.
• 26:13
  James Tejani: Um, they can begin to use these ports that are starting to be Uh, developed, um, with, with modern waterfront enough that this, this, the know how is there to actually do this.
• 26:27
  James Tejani: And so the, you know, the 1890s, I think, really are this, this pivotal time where the United States is, is no longer dreaming of empire, but is actually, um, um, very consciously building the steps and the infrastructure to do this, uh, in a, in a real way.
• 26:51
  James Tejani: So it is part of its rise to globalism.
• 26:54
  James Tejani: Um, um, you know, I certain the book is really the, the building of, of infrastructure.
• 27:01
  James Tejani: So that's the physical infrastructure on one hand, the, the coastal places that are going to be these deep water ports that are going to allow the United States to project.
• 27:11
  James Tejani: out in the Pacific, and eventually the Panama Canal will be part of that.
• 27:15
  James Tejani: Um, it's also, um, building the political will to do so, um, which, which is a story in itself, I think, a harder story for Americans than, than we, um, We sometimes acknowledge was this the shift to imperialism and the controversies around it.
• 27:35
  James Tejani: Um, but nonetheless, the political will is, is, is created.
• 27:40
  James Tejani: Um, and a third part of that is really, um, that is going to touch on the story specifically is building kind of the legal, the legal doctrines.
• 27:52
  James Tejani: To which coastal places can be claimed by the federal government, by the U.
• 27:57
  James Tejani: S.
• 27:58
  James Tejani: Army engineers, and then master planned and built out.
• 28:03
  James Tejani: So the, uh, the parcel of land that Edward Ord.
• 28:08
  James Tejani: takes from Manuel Dominguez through their friendship is going to be a pivotal case study in that, where the legal doctrine, um, is defined in a Supreme Court case that the Dominguez heirs, Manuel Dominguez's daughters initially launched to try to claim back the land, arguing that Edward Ord had done this improperly, in violation of federal laws, um, That case goes all the way to the U.
• 28:35
  James Tejani: S.
• 28:35
  James Tejani: Supreme Court in 1897, and the Supreme Court rules that these are federal places as navigable waters, and that is going to be the basis for the U.
• 28:47
  James Tejani: S.
• 28:47
  James Tejani: Army Corps of Engineers to come in.
• 28:50
  James Tejani: And so, so that that the way the nexus between the political will, The, uh, the legal doctrines, uh, and the, the physical spaces that are going to be remade into deep water ports, I think has, has everything to do.
• 29:08
  James Tejani: I, I, I, I wasn't quite able to sort out the, um, is this coincidence, um, or, uh, is it, is it, um, is it not, but they, they all seem to be pieces falling into place.
• 29:24
  James Tejani: So rapidly in the 1890s, almost, almost too perfectly, that the United States has its moment where now it can, it can make its move as a global power.
• 29:36
  James Tejani: And, um, I think the, um, the, uh, the inborn kind of resistance to Spanish rule that was happening in places like the Philippines and Cuba, uh, Um, that gave the United States this opportunity that it could, it could come in and, and seize places like this and become an heir to the Spanish Empire, um, as it was imagined in the, in the 16th century.
• 30:03
  James Tejani: And, uh, I think what's another interesting facet of the story is the way that Los Angeles as a city, makes its calculation, um, to grab, to be, to be a niche within that United States globalism that it, if the United States is going to be a global Pacific Empire, Los Angeles is going to make its claim to be a global Pacific U.
• 30:24
  James Tejani: S.
• 30:24
  James Tejani: city, uh, which it still is today.
• 30:28
  Damian Bacich: Yeah, that was an interesting, it was an interesting branch of this whole story that, um, as somebody, I lived in LA for 10 years, uh, loved it, um, and I find it to be a fascinating city because, probably because of that, that position that it holds both on the Pacific as a world actor, but also, um, as a, a place that is so particular as well in terms of its, its history and its makeup.
• 31:02
  James Tejani: Yeah, and as you said, it comes full circle where it, it fulfills a kind of vision and destiny that the Spanish, uh, the Spanish Had initially when they set it up in 1781.
• 31:14
  Damian Bacich: yeah, you're right.
• 31:15
  Damian Bacich: Oh man, I could, I could go deep, drill deep more on this, uh, on this subject, but I want to respect your time.
• 31:23
  Damian Bacich: But two quick questions.
• 31:26
  Damian Bacich: After finishing this project, I imagine that you devoted years to it, what, and coming out on the other end of it, what did it tell you about California?
• 31:36
  Damian Bacich: Or how did it make you think about California in a different way, perhaps?
• 31:41
  Damian Bacich: True,
• 31:45
  James Tejani: I think, um, what it led me to realize about California is that California, um, we, you know, we, it's a very interesting moment for California right now because we have, um, we as Californians, we have this sense that California should be, uh, asserting a lead position in the United States.
• 32:12
  James Tejani: And it certainly has tremendous influence, but I think there's this great sense that California could lead the nation in, in, in greater ways, in further ways, uh, than it does.
• 32:24
  James Tejani: And yet, we as Californians also were very attached to this idea of California being, uh, an exceptional place, a place that other places in the United States could not be, even if they wanted to.
• 32:35
  James Tejani: And so there's, there's this very interesting tension between we, we want, uh, we want, you know, we want, um, California to be emblematic and yet exceptional at the same time.
• 32:47
  James Tejani: What this project, I think, taught me was that California really was defining so much about the American nation from the get go, from a very early point, uh, in which, uh, the United States was, was preparing to take it from, from the United States.
• 33:05
  James Tejani: I'm sorry, from the United States was preparing to take it from Mexico.
• 33:08
  James Tejani: For And it became definitive to so many big events in the nation's history.
• 33:14
  James Tejani: So it really deserves to be part of explaining the 19th and 20th century stories of the United States in ways that it has not been before.
• 33:25
  James Tejani: And I think on top of that, California in many ways embodies some of the paradoxes that the United States is, um, involved in and feeling right now in terms of its place in the world and its place in the Pacific world, where California embodies so much of the promise and the potential rewards of a world connected, a world integrated and connected through commerce.
• 33:52
  James Tejani: And yet, it also embodies many of the challenges that a connected world can pose Um, Through its integration, but possibly through its, its fragmentation as well.
• 34:07
  James Tejani: So I think California is on the, is, is in a, it's on the cusp of those, those two, uh, insights.
• 34:16
  Damian Bacich: I agree.
• 34:16
  Damian Bacich: that's that's a great way to put it.
• 34:19
  Damian Bacich: I wish, um, yeah, I, I really, I really hear what you're saying and I, and I think you articulated it really well.
• 34:27
  Damian Bacich: I'm sure working on this, you've got a whole lot of ideas for other projects.
• 34:31
  Damian Bacich: What's next for you in terms of projects?
• 34:35
  James Tejani: Yeah, um, so as you know, uh, Teaching keeps us quite busy, uh, and, um, I am, I'm trying to see past that, um, into, uh, further research projects, and I think that this, writing this book had so many surprises for me, um, so many things that, um, that, um, were twists in kind of the story of California history that I, that I had come to know or the, the, the story of United States history.
• 35:11
  James Tejani: There were so many surprises and twists and, um, those surprises really came down to the characters.
• 35:19
  James Tejani: And so there are several of the major characters in the book That I wanted to have more time with and get to know more than the book gave me the opportunity to or that, um, their stories, parts of their stories got cut out and, uh, and left on the cutting room floor.
• 35:39
  James Tejani: And so I, um, very interestingly have, I've become, you know, a big believer in biography as a way to access.
• 35:49
  James Tejani: Um, those kind of surprises in American history and in California history.
• 35:54
  James Tejani: And so, um, I could see, um, several biographies or biographical studies coming out of the book that flesh out some of the major characters, whether it's Dominguez or Ord or Davidson or Bache, uh, or several others of the characters.
• 36:10
  James Tejani: And I think that's, that's where I would want to go.
• 36:12
  James Tejani: I want, I want to spend more time with some of these individuals.
• 36:17
  Damian Bacich: Well, I hope you do, because I will definitely read them and I'm sure a lot of the people who listen to this podcast and get my emails would love to as well.
• 36:27
  Damian Bacich: So JameTejanini, I want to thank you for the time that you spent in doing this, uh, talking to us, but thank you for all the work and, uh, dedication you put into creating this, um, Excellent, fascinating book.
• 36:43
  Damian Bacich: Once again, A Machine to Move Ocean and Earth, The Making of the Port of Los Angeles and America.
• 36:53
  Damian Bacich: So once again, uh, yeah, thank you.
• 36:57
  James Tejani: Thank you, Damian.
• 36:57
  James Tejani: It's been my pleasure.
• 36:58
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K-1: That concludes my interview with author James Tajani.
• 37:02
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K-1: Who wrote the book and machine to move ocean and earth about the creation.
• 37:07
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K-1: Of the port of Los Angeles.
• 37:10
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K-1: If you like the interview, you're gonna like the book even more.
• 37:13
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K-1: And I have a link to it in the show notes to this episode.
• 37:17
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K-1: Once again, I want to thank James for joining us.
• 37:20
  RODECaster Duo Main Stereo & Cam Link 4K-1: And encourage you all to go out and read the book and to go out and discover something new about the history around you.