Latest / Show, don't Tell Writing with Suzy Vadori / 100. Creative Burnout

Transcript

100. Creative Burnout · Show, don't Tell Writing with Suzy Vadori

• 0:05
  Welcome to the Show, Don't Tell writing podcast with me, Suzy Vadori, where I peel back the layers of how to wow your readers with your fiction through nonfiction.
• 0:13
  Anybody can bang out a first draft, but it takes a little more work to make your book as amazing as it can be.
• 0:20
  Join me as I share the step-by-step writing techniques you could apply to your writing right away as I host successful writers who share a behind-the-scenes look at their own writing lives, and as I live coach writers on their pages, giving practical writing examples that will make your own writing stronger.
• 0:38
  Nobody is born knowing how to write an engaging book.
• 0:42
  There are real and important skills that you need to learn.
• 0:45
  On this show, I cut through the noise and get you all the info you need.
• 0:49
  I can't wait to see how this information is going to transform your writing.
• 0:56
  Today on the Show, Don't Tell writing podcast, we're gonna talk about creative burnout.
• 1:01
  What is it?
• 1:02
  How to prevent it.
• 1:02
  What are the warning signs?
• 1:04
  Do you have it?
• 1:05
  We're gonna answer all of these questions because today my special guest is Erin Michelle Knoller who is a neurodivergent writer and she's a writing coach who's been helping writers with ADHD since 2020.
• 1:15
  She's also the acquisitions editor at Divine Feminine Publishing.
• 1:19
  Her short fiction has been published in a variety of journals and anthologies, and she's currently working on her own novel that explores the narcissistic cycle of abuse through the frame of speculative body horror.
• 1:31
  She is an absolute gem, a colleague of mine that I enjoy spending time with, and we dreamed up this episode about a month ago when we were together in- at a conference in Denver, and now we're just getting together to record it to talk all about burnout and make sure that it doesn't happen to you.
• 1:49
  And if you are in the throes of it, she's gonna help you out with some strategies to get through it.
• 1:54
  We wanna make sure that your creative energy is protected and that you keep going on that awesome book that you're working on.
• 2:01
  Welcome to the podcast, Erin.
• 2:03
  So good to be talking to you again.
• 2:05
  I have been thinking about this topic since we met in Denver last month about burnout and- Mm-hmm creative burnout because ... And now I'm wondering if I'm there.
• 2:14
  So I'm hoping- Uh-huh ... I think we're all probably wondering this if we're listening.
• 2:18
  So- Yeah ... yeah, I just wanna chit-chat with you and pick your brain because this is something that you work with writers- Mm-hmm...
• 2:24
  all the time on.
• 2:25
  What do you mean specifically by burnout?
• 2:28
  What does it mean?
• 2:29
  So usually when writers come to me who are in a state of burnout, it's writers who have been ... It's really common that they have an MFA maybe, and they've, like, tried to maintain the momentum of, uh, the, like, the mo- the MFA program they were in and all the work they had to get done.
• 2:49
  And when that doesn't work to maintain that momentum on their own- Then maybe they're signing up for workshop after workshop after workshop, just trying to keep the external, you know, motivation going, or they're like So it's this, um, and they, they get to a point where the creative energy, like the creative fire, where all of that like desire to make something new just starts to ... They can't access it anymore.
• 3:12
  Mm-hmm.
• 3:13
  And it gets ... Then there's this, out there is this idea that you have to write every day, or you have to produce, that you have to publish, that you have to da, da, da, da, right?
• 3:20
  So pressuring themselves with that idea, then they just push harder, and then they just push harder, and then all of a sudden it's like there's nothing left there.
• 3:27
  Everything they used to do doesn't work anymore.
• 3:29
  So all those ways that they used to be able to externally motivate themselves to create have stopped working.
• 3:35
  And so then they're like, what they feel like broken, or they feel like ... It's a state that I often call creative despair, because it's like this intense, deep desire to reconnect with something that makes you feel like who you are, right?
• 3:49
  That creative impulse is why we all got into writing in the first place.
• 3:52
  Yeah.
• 3:52
  And then when you're not able to access it, it can be really terrifying and really devastating.
• 3:57
  And we get sort of ... I, I have gotten and I know writers who've gotten, I call it like just really angsty, like why can't I just do this?
• 4:04
  Why can't this thing I used to do on a regular basis for fun, I can't access it anymore.
• 4:10
  And it can be really scary.
• 4:11
  So that's ... There are other symptoms of burnout from other like, you know, new parents that can experience burnout, or if you've had just like a really demanding job you can experience burnout.
• 4:19
  If you're ... I mean, you may think right now in 2026 we're all kind of burnt out because of the world.
• 4:24
  So there's, right?
• 4:25
  There's all different types.
• 4:26
  But the, the writers who I work with come to me specifically because they're like, "I need to be able to access this part of myself, and I can't anymore, and I don't know how to get that back." Yeah.
• 4:37
  Okay.
• 4:38
  So, yeah.
• 4:38
  So we're specifically talking today about creative burnout.
• 4:41
  So if you are in this spot right now, dear listener- Mm ... we have gonna have some relief for you and some ideas.
• 4:47
  Mm. But even if you're not experiencing it today, I think- Mm-hmm ... probably, Erin, we're also gonna talk about strategies for listeners who aren't there, but how to prevent it, right?
• 4:56
  Like- Yeah.
• 4:56
  Yeah sort of talk about that.
• 4:58
  Okay.
• 4:58
  So I just wanna couch this episode by saying, hey- Sure ... this episode's for you if you're there, but also if you're not there yet.
• 5:04
  This is a really, really- Mm-hmm ... important one.
• 5:06
  Can I ask, because when I'm listening to you talking about this- Mm-hmm ... and, and writers saying, "Okay, I'm feeling the pressure.
• 5:11
  I'm doing these things," how does this stage differ from sort of the catch-all phrase of, and I don't know what your theories are on this, I have my own, but of writer's block.
• 5:21
  How does- Yeah ... how does that relate?
• 5:23
  Because people just say, "Oh, I have writer's block," and then they just kind of just sit there with it.
• 5:28
  Like, how does how you deal with burnout relate to that topic?
• 5:32
  That's a really good question, and actually that's where all of this work for me started, is that I had- Okay ... experienced writer's block.
• 5:38
  I knew writers who talked about writer's block.
• 5:40
  It's a really frustrating and kind of like, I wanna just call it like a stupid term, because it doesn't it doesn't feel- I agree.
• 5:45
  I agree, by the way ... like what it is, right?
• 5:47
  Yeah.
• 5:47
  It's like, so if we're gonna, let's maybe define it real quick, which is I'd sit down to write and I can't.
• 5:51
  And so within that word can't is like what does that even mean?
• 5:55
  And so now I'm questioning if I'm answering your question, but I'm just trying to like open up this topic, right?
• 6:00
  Yeah.
• 6:00
  So what I will talk to writers a- about is like, okay, when you sit down to do the work, when you sit down to write what you call writing.
• 6:09
  I'm finger quoting here for those people like to call or to write.
• 6:11
  Yeah, 'cause they won't see you.
• 6:13
  They won't see you.
• 6:13
  Yeah.
• 6:14
  Well, what does that mean?
• 6:14
  What are you physically doing with your body, with your mind?
• 6:17
  Like what is happening in the room when you sit down to write?
• 6:19
  Because that means more than one thing, right?
• 6:21
  That means like daydreaming, that means taking notes, that means ... And at which part of the process are you not ... Where is the can't?
• 6:29
  If I can't write, what does that mean?
• 6:30
  Does that mean you don't ... You like, feel like you don't have ideas?
• 6:33
  Does that mean that when you sit down to do the work you distract yourself intentionally?
• 6:36
  Does that mean you never sit down to the work because you're like afraid to sit down 'cause you're afraid of what's gonna happen?
• 6:41
  And so I think that's one of the most important things is to get really precise about, is when you say or when somebody says they have writer's block, what part of the process are you talking about, and what aren't you able to access like within your, within your process, right?
• 6:56
  Yeah.
• 6:56
  So, um, so yeah.
• 6:57
  So because it's not just ... There are so many different activities, tasks that, that we have to ... Like we have to think of ideas, we have to write the ideas, we have to sort of free write, we have to write with intention, we have to write with planning, we have to look at outlines, we have to edit, we have to write, and then s- first draft, second draft, third draft.
• 7:17
  There's a lot of different activities in there.
• 7:19
  So which part of the process is tripping you up?
• 7:22
  And then once that happens, let's ... We, we need to talk about ... Like okay, so let's for ex- example, it's when I sit down to do anything at all.
• 7:29
  I sit down and say I'm gonna write and instead I organize my desk, or instead I reply to a bunch of emails, or I'm avoiding, avoiding, avoiding.
• 7:36
  So if that's happening, what are you afraid of, right?
• 7:39
  And if you're afraid of like ... And if it's this constant like I have to write but I can't write, and I have to write and I ... But I can't write, what's probably happening is that somewhere in that fear of like the fear of what will happen when I sit down to do the work, the answer of what's holding you back of what's causing the writer's block, right?
• 7:54
  So what's with- what's inside of that fear?
• 7:57
  Are you afraid that ... Mo- A lot of the time it's like writers who had some big moment of inspiration, and like a book or a series of essays or something like poured out of them, and they want that experience again, and they're afraid that if they sit down to do the work again, that sort of download from the universe like won't come in the same way and it won't be as satisfying.
• 8:20
  And they're ... Like so they're afraid of that.
• 8:21
  So that's like one example too, but like it's that like what's ... That the writer's block itself is a combination of like what are you afraid of when you sit down to do the work, and then also sometimes that fear is due to like a very real reaction- To the fact that you may have been pushing yourself too hard, right?
• 8:45
  So sometimes the resistance inside of writer's block is valid information for you that you have been pushing yourself too hard.
• 8:53
  So we have to look at what are you afraid of when you sit down to write, and also maybe that fear is a valid fear, so let's look at it.
• 8:59
  Because if you had been pushing yourself to produce content, like, without re- refilling your energy and refilling your creative energy, refilling your cup, then that fear's valid.
• 9:10
  That means, like, that there's, like, two parts of you at war with yourself, one part who says, "I need rest," and one part who says, "But you have to write a book because that's your dream.
• 9:17
  That's who you are.
• 9:18
  You're an author," right?
• 9:19
  So there's these two parts often warring with yourself, right?
• 9:22
  Yeah.
• 9:22
  I mean, that's- that's amazing and- and there's so much to unpack there, and I can't wait- Mm-hmm to do it.
• 9:26
  I love talking about this in this way because you're so process-focused, and I love that you work on writing processes with- with your writers because my former background is in operations and process.
• 9:38
  Yeah.
• 9:38
  So a lot of my think is in matrices and process.
• 9:41
  Yeah.
• 9:41
  And so but one of the things that you talked about in that explanation, I mean, yes- Mm-hmm writer's block is sort of a catch-all.
• 9:49
  Burnout is one of the components or one of the reasons why you might be experiencing that or might be the end result.
• 9:54
  Mm-hmm.
• 9:55
  But also that there are a lot of different parts that go into writing a book, and there's a lot of focus- Uh-huh ... on, you know, when people talk about, "Oh, I coach writing process," or something, they might just coach write every day, right?
• 10:09
  And that- Yeah ... that's one, that's one thing.
• 10:11
  And write new words every day, or what's your word count or- Mm ... or those types of things.
• 10:14
  There's so much focus on that one thing, and I love- Yes ... the example that you used where, you know, it's the Hollywood example.
• 10:22
  We sit down and the muse came, and we just type, type- Mm-hmm type, type, type, and it's just, like, amazing and perfect.
• 10:28
  But that isn't reality, right?
• 10:30
  Like, and it might be- No ... in moments, but it's not gonna happen all the time.
• 10:33
  There's all kinds- Mm ... of other things that you need to do.
• 10:36
  I like to say it all has to get done, and sometimes that's a mindset shift for writers to understand that it's- Mm-hmm not just about producing new words, that there are other feelings- Yes ... and other pieces to this process.
• 10:48
  So yeah, that was cool.
• 10:49
  Yeah, and I love having that conversation because it's something I asked repeatedly as, like, a new writer.
• 10:54
  I was like, "Okay, but how did you write the book?" And it's usually some, "Oh, I sat down every day and I just worked on it." Right?
• 11:00
  The, like, writers who are very successful often don't know how to answer that question.
• 11:04
  They don't know how to describe their process.
• 11:06
  And so when you get very specific and precise about what goes into it, then you can look at energy, like, required for each of those types of- processes, right?
• 11:16
  So the energy of gen- like generative energy, generating new work is different than editing energy, and that's different than querying or submitting for publication energy, and that's different than the marketing stuff you may have to do, like book signings or being on podcasts or, you know, like pitching, you know, to different what have you.
• 11:37
  So like all the marketing stuff.
• 11:38
  So those are all parts of being a writer.
• 11:40
  That's all part of the work.
• 11:42
  But the energy required for each individual person, like for me, the generative stage draws the most energy for me.
• 11:49
  Like, I have to be, try and do that like in the morning.
• 11:51
  I have to like devote more time to it, and I have to...
• 11:54
  Right?
• 11:54
  But like I love editing.
• 11:55
  I just love editing, and I know writers who are the opposite, right?
• 11:58
  They like, they love that first draft, and it just comes out, and then they hate having to edit.
• 12:01
  So but being really honest with yourself, and again, really specific and precise about the energy levels required for you, because all writers are different, for each part of those processes helps you understand, like if I'm feeling burnt out, maybe for a while all I'm doing is something that feels lower energy for me.
• 12:18
  So maybe I'm just editing existing work if I have enough of it to edit, if that feels lower energy.
• 12:22
  Or maybe I'm just looking for, maybe I'm just gonna like... You know, so I write short fiction, so for me a low energy exercise is just looking for new publications where I might send my work.
• 12:32
  So things like that, right?
• 12:33
  So that can be something that you actively decide, like I am starting to feel burnt out, I'm starting to feel tired, I'm starting to feel, like when I look at my process and identify parts of it that will require less energy so I feel like I'm still getting something done, right?
• 12:47
  Absolutely.
• 12:48
  Yeah.
• 12:48
  And I think, so listeners, if you're listening to this, make sure that you're giving yourself credit and celebrating- Wow all of those things around it because if you don't do that- Mm-hmm ... your brain's kinda mean, right?
• 12:59
  Yeah.
• 12:59
  Your brain, brains can be mean- Yeah... and, and it will tell you that you're not doing the work 'cause you're not- Mm... creating new, new words necessarily.
• 13:07
  But listen to Erin, she's super smart, and know that all of the work has to get done, and successful writers...
• 13:14
  I love what else you said, that successful writers often can't explain what it is that they're doing, and- Mm-hmm ... this is one of my, one of my pet peeves about some of my colleagues who will teach, you know, how to write a book in 30 days or six weeks- Ah ... or whatever.
• 13:27
  Yeah.
• 13:28
  And I just, or how to write without an outline, and you're like, "Okay, but this is your 35th book, and you've kind of- Mm-hmm figured it out, and you're not really explaining, and you- Yeah ... you're not saying that this idea actually came to you two years ago just like somebody else's," right?
• 13:44
  So there's pieces of that process that sometimes get missed even by- Mm-hmm ... professionals that they don't- Oh, yeah ... realize that they're doing.
• 13:50
  And that- Mm-hmm ... that happened to me.
• 13:51
  When I, when I first quit my job in 2018 to do, quote-unquote, all things writing, as I kind of use the catch-all because it's not just- It's- ... writing, right?
• 14:01
  Mm-hmm.
• 14:01
  It's coaching writing, and it's helping writing- Yeah ... and it's editing, and it's doing the, the podcast and all the things.
• 14:06
  I immersed myself in it, but I'm not writing all the time, but I thought I could.
• 14:09
  Yeah.
• 14:10
  And so when I'm working full time- I was able to go to a writer's retreat and plan for it, and sit down, you know, once every two months and get 10,000 words in a day, right?
• 14:20
  Do not- Mm-hmm ... do not write that number down and say that you should be able to do that.
• 14:24
  But why?
• 14:24
  That's a lot.
• 14:24
  Do it.
• 14:24
  I mean, it's a lot.
• 14:25
  It's ridiculous.
• 14:26
  Yeah.
• 14:27
  And then I was like, "Well, okay, now if I'm gonna write full time and I can hit $10,000, or $10,000 ... I wish.
• 14:32
  $10,000- Yes, right?
• 14:34
  ...
• 14:34
  10,000 words a day, how many books could Yeah, yeah.
• 14:40
  I found I couldn't do that because I didn't take into account the thinking time and the, you know- Hmm that's one of the ways that, that you can show up and not be able to write, is you've, if you haven't made decisions, right?
• 14:50
  You don't know what- Yeah ... you should be writing.
• 14:52
  Mm-hmm.
• 14:52
  That all takes time.
• 14:53
  Yes.
• 14:53
  That all takes time.
• 14:54
  Okay.
• 14:54
  So burnout showing up in writers is them either not sitting down to write or sitting down to write and not being, can't- Yeah quote, unquote, "write", and then breaking down everything else.
• 15:09
  How does burnout in creatives differ from, say, burnout in a parent?
• 15:14
  Is it different?
• 15:15
  Oh, that's a good question.
• 15:16
  I think that, uh, burnout can be more obvious, I think, in other areas when it's not... Like, creative burnout I think can, is sometimes harder to identify.
• 15:25
  You can feel, like, I think, like, as a new parent, so just as an example, you know, like, it's very obvious that you're burnt out because, like, taking a shower feels like way too much, and you're just, like, staring into space.
• 15:35
  I mean, it's like ... Yeah, my son is 10, so I've had some, I've had some distance, but still, like, it, that's a very obvious kind of burnout.
• 15:41
  Or, so that's like, I think with creative burnout, I think in a lot of ways you can feel sort of okay.
• 15:46
  Like, the rest of your life can be going smoothly.
• 15:48
  You can be, like, not necessarily super stressed, not necessarily.
• 15:52
  But it's when you try to access, it sort of, I think, feels like some part of you, one of your senses has been kind of sh- like, flipped off.
• 16:00
  Oh, I love that.
• 16:01
  Right?
• 16:01
  For a writer.
• 16:01
  So it feels like deadened.
• 16:03
  Yeah.
• 16:03
  Right?
• 16:03
  Yeah.
• 16:03
  So it's, there, it's like a, it's like a, a part of your experience, way, a way that you experience the world that it's a sense that's been deadened.
• 16:13
  It's like being deaf for, to, to a certain part of your experience.
• 16:17
  And I think that, again, it's like I'm, I'm going back to what we had, you had, what you just said and what I had said before about, like, trying to sit down to write and then avoiding it, right?
• 16:26
  There's that one.
• 16:26
  Or sitting down and, like, nothing really happens, and feeling that fear.
• 16:30
  And then I think it's this back and forth, like, where I feel like what starts to happen is there's this message of anxiety that's like, "You should be writing.
• 16:38
  You should be writing.
• 16:38
  You should be writing.
• 16:39
  Why aren't you working on your book?
• 16:40
  Why aren't you working on your book?" And instead you're, like, watching crappy TV or you're scrolling on your phone, and I wanna talk about that a little bit too because I think- Or watching good TV.
• 16:48
  No.
• 16:48
  Or watching good TV.
• 16:49
  I, I- Right?
• 16:50
  I do, 'cause we can talk about that too, because, like, we, if we talk about, like, intentional ways to recharge, TV is one of them for me.
• 16:56
  But I wanna talk about, like, the phone and social media.
• 16:58
  I'm gonna come back to that.
• 16:59
  But, like- Yeah ... the, the way we shame ourselves and punish ourselves, like, "You should be writing.
• 17:04
  You should be writing.
• 17:04
  You should be writing." So, and I think that's what starts to happen, is you feel like- That part of you that you have this, you know, you have memories of yourself in these moments of creation of your work that just feel so amazing, and you have that memory, and you want that again.
• 17:20
  But then when you go to, like, seek it out, it feels sort of dead-end.
• 17:23
  It feels like you can't access it.
• 17:25
  I can remember, I wrote about this.
• 17:27
  I went through a phase of this after starting my coaching business in 2020, and also going through 2020 and being a single mom of a four-year-old.
• 17:34
  And my ... It felt like my creativity was, like, behind me.
• 17:37
  Like, I would turn around and it wasn't there, but I could feel it, like, in the background, but I couldn't get to it.
• 17:41
  Like do something- It was like-...
• 17:42
  or do something.
• 17:43
  Um, or just like, it's ... You know, it was, like, right there, but it was like I couldn't see it, right?
• 17:48
  Almost like it was, like, haunting me or something, and I was so frustrated and I was so angry.
• 17:52
  And so it feels sort of almost ghostly, I almost wanna say.
• 17:55
  Like, I know that sounds kind of, I don't know- Hey, I write fantasy ... weird or something... ghosts are welcome on this pod.
• 18:00
  Yeah.
• 18:01
  Ghosts are welcome.
• 18:01
  Like, that's ... It's like haunting you, right?
• 18:03
  It's like I know I ... Like, I'm not crazy.
• 18:05
  I know I used to be able to do this.
• 18:06
  Why can't I do it now?
• 18:08
  And I think that ... So that's ... But again, other parts of my life, like I was managing.
• 18:12
  I was, you know, I was pay- getting the bills paid.
• 18:15
  I was, like, doing my coaching work.
• 18:16
  I was, you know, enjoying myself in other areas of life, but it was like that one thing felt like something was missing.
• 18:22
  And- So yeah, that's how I could get it first...
• 18:24
  yeah.
• 18:25
  And I mean, this is gonna ... This feeds in nicely to my next inquiry here, because I wanna know.
• 18:30
  Like, nobody's talking about this.
• 18:32
  I talk- Mm-hmm ... to writers all the time.
• 18:34
  Right?
• 18:34
  Why is burnout overlooked or ignored in our industry?
• 18:38
  Shame.
• 18:38
  Because it's not being ignored in other places.
• 18:41
  Okay?
• 18:41
  Yeah, I think it's shame.
• 18:42
  I think it's that it comes back to that expectation where we tie being a writer into our identities, and like, this is who I am, and I'm an author, and I'm a writer, and I'm a creative person.
• 18:51
  And you look around, and this is also that comparison, right, to other ... Writers aren't gonna We often don't, like, talk about all the times when we haven't been able to write.
• 18:59
  Or when we do, we almost maybe romanticize it a little bit, because then I was able to write my amazing book, 'cause I'm trying to sell my book, right?
• 19:05
  So it's like it's not something we talk about a ton, and I think that, like what we were talking about before, where we That sort of Hollywood romanticiza- ization of sitting down with, like, the quill pen, and, like, the words are just flowing, and the montage with the typewriter and what have you, right?
• 19:20
  Yeah.
• 19:20
  We have that idea of writing in our head.
• 19:22
  And so when we're just, like, taking a walk for the 50th time and we haven't put a word on the page in two or three or weeks or a month or whatever, and we just feel frustrated every time we sit down to try it, there's shame in that, right?
• 19:33
  Because you've ... Like, again, if we're not talking about it, and so we don't wanna project that part of ourselves 'cause it doesn't align with this ideal of what a writer's- Sure ... life should look like.
• 19:42
  Yeah.
• 19:42
  Yeah.
• 19:42
  And can I also offer, you know, just as- Mm-hmm ... you're think- I mean, I don't know if this is the answer.
• 19:46
  I wanna float this by you, but- Yeah...
• 19:48
  but it is something that happens Yeah...
• 19:52
  we have support networks.
• 19:54
  Mm-hmm.
• 19:54
  And, you know, if you are failing as a parent or burnt out as a ... Not failing, but burnt out as a parent, people will notice.
• 20:01
  Your child- Yeah Um, you might be tired.
• 20:05
  Your in-laws- Mm-hmm might come and help you, as mine would.
• 20:07
  Mm-hmm.
• 20:07
  You know, like, there's things that will happen, and if you are burnt out at your job or with your family, people will notice, and there- Mm-hmm ... will be consequences.
• 20:16
  If you are burnt out as a writer and not fueling your creativity, there may not be people in your life who notice.
• 20:22
  Mm-hmm.
• 20:23
  Right?
• 20:23
  Yeah.
• 20:23
  Um- Yeah ... not in your immediate sphere.
• 20:26
  I know if you're anything like me, my agent, my colleagues, a lot of people are remote.
• 20:31
  Mm-hmm.
• 20:31
  I do have people who will come up to me at a writer's conference and say, number one, you know, "Are you doing as well as it looks like you're doing on social media?" Mm-hmm.
• 20:39
  And the answer to that is, "Yeah, I'm having a great time." Mm-hmm.
• 20:42
  And then the second question is,"But are you writing, honey?" You know, like- Yeah ... and that's the, the Atlanta shaming.
• 20:47
  Yeah.
• 20:48
  And for me, like I'm a bi- I'm a binge writer.
• 20:50
  I write in cycles.
• 20:51
  I know- Mm-hmm ... how to protect my... Like I, I kind of have some of these things figured out.
• 20:55
  It's not perfect.
• 20:56
  Yeah.
• 20:56
  But I'm okay in the phases where I'm not writing.
• 20:58
  I'm okay.
• 20:59
  Mm-hmm.
• 20:59
  Yeah.
• 20:59
  'Cause I'm working on, you know, 100 books a year with other writers, and to me- Yeah ... that's amazing, and I know, I can recognize that my creative energy is going there- Mm-hmm...
• 21:09
  my listeners' books, right?
• 21:11
  Yeah.
• 21:11
  And so I'm okay in those moments, and then when I want to come back and do that, I have to do things differently, right?
• 21:18
  But- Mm-hmm ... but for a lot of writers, would you say that why we're not talking about it or why it might be hard to diagnose is because they don't have people in their lives that actually notice when they're not writing?
• 21:28
  I don't know if that makes sense.
• 21:29
  It does make sense, and I think that, um, there's also a lot of writers who, like, unless you're, you actively have a relationship with an agent or an editor who is expecting work from you next, it's all, you know, driven by your own, um, motivation.
• 21:42
  So, like- Yeah ... you are, you, you have to be the one who decides when you're gonna write next.
• 21:46
  And so yeah, I think that's very true, and I think that's something that a lot of this is such individual work, too.
• 21:53
  It's the... And I, when I say the work, I'm not just talking about the work of writing a book.
• 21:57
  I'm talking about the work of, of like on yourself to figure out how to- Recognizing and looking after- Yeah your creative spirit- Yeah ... really.
• 22:03
  Exactly.
• 22:04
  And I love something you just said, Suzy, when you were talking about your creative work, and you mentioned, "I can recognize when my creative energy is, like, showing up in the work of the people that I help," and that feels satisfying to you.
• 22:16
  And that's a really important thing to note because, like, that means that you're doing what you're doing, you're not creatively burnt out or creatively blunted or creatively...
• 22:25
  Right?
• 22:26
  Because you can, you can recognize that, and you feel satisfied by the work, right?
• 22:31
  100%. Right?
• 22:33
  Yeah.
• 22:33
  And so that's the- Will I go back, will I go back to fiction?
• 22:35
  I will.
• 22:36
  I will go back to fiction.
• 22:38
  Yeah.
• 22:38
  But, you know- Yeah.
• 22:38
  And what, like let's say, you know, again, it's like even if you didn't or you've shifted and you're like,"I just like writing nonfiction," or, "I feel like writing-" That's what I'm doing right now- anything but-"...
• 22:45
  nonfiction, and somehow it doesn't- Yeah...
• 22:46
  it doesn't satisfy that Yeah.
• 22:49
  It doesn't do it.
• 22:50
  Um, but I'm writing it for all of you.
• 22:52
  Yeah.
• 22:52
  You'll get to a place where you're like, "Okay. I'm at a place where I know it's not enough and I know I need to feed that need for myself." But that's part of what, when we talk about- You know, at the beginning of this episode, talking about those of you who know you're experiencing burnout, and those of you who are wanting to make sure you avoid burnout- Yeah...
• 23:10
  is to start paying really close it's gonna have to come from you.
• 23:15
  No one is gonna recognize that from the outside but you.
• 23:18
  Do I feel satisfied in my creative work?
• 23:21
  Am I feeling a lack of something?
• 23:23
  Am I feeling grief that I haven't been able to work on fiction?
• 23:28
  Like I'm writing fic- nonfiction, but I, I miss coming up with imaginary places and imaginary characters- That's right and feeling grief about that.
• 23:36
  Yeah.
• 23:36
  You being able to recognize that is a big part of recognizing burnout.
• 23:41
  Yeah.
• 23:41
  And I think, don't let us, listeners, if you're listening and going, "Oh my gosh, I thought I was fine, but now I feel shame that I don't feel shame." You know, we don't, we don't need that spiral.
• 23:50
  No.
• 23:51
  If you feel satisfied, then that's cool.
• 23:53
  Yes.
• 23:53
  Okay.
• 23:53
  So before we talk about how to prevent it, what are some things that writers are actually doing that contribute to burnout?
• 24:02
  Besides, I mean, we just talked about- Mm-hmm ... one of them, which is, you know, that self-talk or shame around it.
• 24:06
  Mm-hmm.
• 24:06
  Yeah.
• 24:07
  That mean voice that says, "You're supposed to be doing something." Mm-hmm.
• 24:10
  That's one.
• 24:11
  Mm-hmm.
• 24:11
  Are there other things that writers do that you see that maybe we're not aware of that are actually- Mm-hmm ... contributing to burnout?
• 24:18
  This is gonna go hand in hand with the shaming thing, but I think it's a good way to recognize it because this is so huge.
• 24:23
  And it, borrowed from therapy, like if you are a person who's been to a lot of therapy, you've probably heard this before, and it's like the shoulds, like shoulding yourself.
• 24:30
  I should be doing this.
• 24:32
  I should be doing that.
• 24:33
  So it's a matter of like the classic one is the write every day.
• 24:36
  Write a certain number of words every day.
• 24:38
  I should be writing amount of this, this amount of time.
• 24:40
  I should be blah, blah, blah.
• 24:42
  So, um, and it can even go so far as I should be writing this specific book instead of writing the other book I really wanna write.
• 24:48
  I should be writing this, in this genre because that's my genre for whatever.
• 24:53
  Right?
• 24:53
  Right.
• 24:53
  So any time that you're, you find yourself using that word a lot on yourself, that's a really good thing to look at and be like- And you're not paying attention to what your creative spirit is actually pulling you toward, right?
• 25:04
  Yes.
• 25:04
  Like, yeah.
• 25:05
  Okay.
• 25:05
  And we can't always just immediately shift to like the thing our heart desires, right?
• 25:09
  However, but listening to that part of yourself.
• 25:12
  Like, yes, so if I'm telling myself I should be writing in this genre and I really wanna change genres, sometimes just acknowledging, yes, I'm, been writing romance, but what I really wanna write is horror.
• 25:23
  I'm like desperate to write horror.
• 25:25
  I can like, if I recognize that feeling, and I can like acknowledge it and honor it and be like, yes, you wanna be writing horror right now.
• 25:33
  Let's just see if we can finish this book, right?
• 25:35
  But let's acknowledge that that's a desire for you, and let's see if we can find a way to meet that desire a little further down the road.
• 25:40
  Yeah.
• 25:40
  Um, so definitely I think shoulds.
• 25:42
  Any time that, oh, I know, this is the biggest one, and we actually talked about this at the retreat.
• 25:46
  I brought it up with the group, and it's resentment.
• 25:49
  This is so, so huge.
• 25:51
  So one of the first ways to recognize if you are pushing yourself towards burnout is if there are parts of the work, of your work- That used to bring you joy and you are starting to feel resentful of the writing every day.
• 26:04
  If you're starting to like, when you sit down to do your daily writing time, if that's what you've been doing, and you're looking at that blank page, and what you feel is resentment, that is ... That's a warning sign.
• 26:14
  That's a huge warning sign to stop what you're doing and reevaluate all of what you've been telling yourself you should be doing because that's- That comes from an external pressure, right?
• 26:22
  Like- Yeah ... comes from somebody else's expectations if you're resenting it.
• 26:26
  No, 'cause it, it's not necessarily coming from an external source.
• 26:30
  It may be coming from you.
• 26:31
  Part of the reason you may be resentful is that part of yourself is trying to force the process, and there's a part of yourself that is legitimately resistant for valid reasons.
• 26:44
  Like, I'm tired.
• 26:45
  I'm tired, I don't wanna write every day.
• 26:46
  I'm drawing from an empty well.
• 26:48
  And there's part of you, like, I think of this as like my inner toddler that like throws a tantrum, and if my inner toddler is throwing a tantrum and refusing to write, that's not happening in a vacuum for no reason.
• 26:58
  It's happening because part of me is exhausted, or part of me is, knows I'm working on the wrong thing, or I'm pushing the project in the wrong direction, or what have you.
• 27:06
  So resentment happens before.
• 27:08
  It's the first trigger, like emo-...
• 27:08
  The first emotional trigger to know that something is not going right.
• 27:13
  Okay.
• 27:14
  So I'll make this joke now to say that I was wrong, and don't confuse resentment towards your current project- ... to resentment in the people in your life who are keeping you from being able to write because they're- Well- They need you.
• 27:27
  That's a ther- that's a therapist question.
• 27:30
  That's a point.
• 27:31
  Resentment is actually a really good tool in other areas of your life, but I feel less qualified to- I am not a therapist ... speak on that.
• 27:37
  So here's some of the warning signs, resentment- Mm-hmm ... you're not writing, all of these things, you know, feel like you can't access it.
• 27:44
  How can we prevent it?
• 27:45
  Mm-hmm.
• 27:45
  What are some Like, I know it- it's gonna be different for everybody, but what are some of the top tips to- Okay ... nip in the bud, move past it, prevent it?
• 27:55
  Before it happens, actually.
• 27:56
  Um, yes.
• 27:57
  The first one I'm gonna say, and this is also my first recommendation if you're like, "Oh my gosh, I, I feel like maybe I am more burnt out than I realized," but it's not gonna be very, very popular, and it's the phone.
• 28:07
  It's the phone, and it's the social media, and it's the scrolling, and it's you needing to let your brain get bored.
• 28:12
  That is so ... And then there's, there's so much research to back this up.
• 28:16
  We've known this for years now, and the scrolling on your phone and social media is addictive.
• 28:23
  It was designed to be addictive, and it sucks out your creative energy.
• 28:26
  It sucks.
• 28:27
  It just does.
• 28:28
  You lose so much time to it, and your brain needs to be able to get bored, and your mind needs to be able to wander in order to rest, right?
• 28:37
  In order to rest, in order to have, to be able to access your creative energy, you have to be able to daydream.
• 28:42
  You have to be able to daydream and, and like enjoy getting lost in your own daydreams rather than just getting lost in somebody else's Instagram feed, right?
• 28:50
  This is so important, and I ... A lot of people don't wanna hear that- And I honestly- I wanna hear it.
• 28:56
  Yeah.
• 28:56
  I wanna hear it.
• 28:57
  I mean, how many, these, uh, you know, perhaps listening to this podcast might be a little bit different.
• 29:01
  I mean, how many people can say they come up with great ideas in the shower or on a walk or, like- Yeah when they're just not doing- Exactly... something, not fully engaging their brain?
• 29:09
  Mm-hmm.
• 29:09
  That's when it works on some... Or in the nighttime, how many of our listeners- Mm-hmm ... have a notepad by their bed?
• 29:15
  Yeah.
• 29:16
  Yeah.
• 29:16
  To capture those ideas, and it's because of that, right?
• 29:19
  Yes.
• 29:19
  One of our colleagues- And it's also not easy.
• 29:21
  Okay.
• 29:21
  Yeah.
• 29:22
  I was gonna say, one of our colleagues, Michelle Ha- Hazen, who is decided to take on a few sir products, she has this technique that she talks about if you are not feeling it, to, like, set a timer and lay on the floor and do absolutely nothing for five minutes.
• 29:37
  Wow.
• 29:37
  Yeah.
• 29:37
  And I just think it's amazing.
• 29:38
  I, she told me this three weeks ago.
• 29:41
  I've thought about it.
• 29:42
  I even thought about it this morning.
• 29:43
  Mm-hmm.
• 29:44
  I haven't tried it yet, 'cause it just seems so unproductive.
• 29:46
  And- Yeah ... sorry if all of you are listening, but I'm gonna try it.
• 29:50
  I'll report back, but I bet it- Mm-hmm ... will work.
• 29:52
  And, and I haven't felt like I needed to do it either, so I haven't experienced it- Yeah because of that.
• 29:57
  Um, but- Well, and I'm gonna- ... you know, laying on the floor, and I'm like- Yeah ... I never thought about just laying down on my floor.
• 30:02
  Like, I don't do that.
• 30:03
  Yeah.
• 30:04
  I don't know.
• 30:04
  Well, and just shaking things up a little bit in that way.
• 30:06
  Yeah.
• 30:06
  And then, um, but I will also say for those of us, 'cause, so I'm also, I'm neurodivergent, and the idea of doing absolutely nothing sometimes kind of just terrifies me, just because, like, I have to at least be fidgeting.
• 30:16
  And so I also recommend pacing.
• 30:19
  Like, with no phone, nothing else around, pacing for five minutes.
• 30:22
  Phys- incorporating physical movement into that, into the not having your phone, into doing nothing, into letting your brain get bored can help.
• 30:29
  But yeah, so any way that you can incorporate some downtime in that way.
• 30:34
  I had another client who is a therapist, and she was really struggling with this.
• 30:38
  And we had a conversation where I realized that other than the, like, very quick five-minute shower she was taking, she was in conversation with clients and her family 100% of the time.
• 30:47
  Like, her... And her partner was the one who made dinner, and, like, she didn't drive because...
• 30:52
  And so she, I mean, there was no time for, for she was just, she called it quiet contemplation.
• 30:56
  She's like, "That doesn't exist in my life." And when she realized that, she was kind of just shocked.
• 31:00
  Like, as a therapist, she understands the important of this.
• 31:02
  And so, she just set aside a half-hour block on her calendar to just, like, sit in her office, and she was allowed to have, like, some markers and paper if she wanted to, like, draw.
• 31:12
  But she wasn't allowed to read.
• 31:13
  She wasn't allowed to talk.
• 31:14
  She wasn't allowed to listen to anything but music.
• 31:16
  And so that was, like, a huge recharge for her that she discovered.
• 31:20
  So you can get creative with this.
• 31:21
  Um, and it can be something that you enjoy.
• 31:23
  Ideally, you know, experiment, but it's ideally something you look forward to, especially as you get used to, like, doing it more often.
• 31:30
  And I will say I have taken all social... I don't have any social media anymore at all.
• 31:34
  Except for now Substack is, like, kind of creeping into, like, social media territory, but I don't post on there and don't look at the feed thing.
• 31:40
  But I do technically still have a Substack, but I'm getting mad at them.
• 31:44
  For the way it's changing Yeah.
• 31:45
  I think it's turning into- But- ... more and more- Yeah ... all of the same, right?
• 31:49
  And this is- Yeah ... the problem.
• 31:50
  Uh, I'll say this once, but if you're not paying for something, you are the product.
• 31:55
  It's like, oh, yeah.
• 31:56
  You are the product, and you- Mm-hmm ... are being used, right, in all of these things.
• 31:59
  And, and I certainly don't use, I mean, I do use social media in terms of- Mm-hmm being able to communicate with all of you, and- Yeah...
• 32:08
  sharing information, but I use it less Mm. And I do it other ways, and I certainly don't consume much of it, or I try not to, um- Yeah.
• 32:20
  And I think, yeah ... it's getting flooded with garbage, right?
• 32:23
  Like, I don't know.
• 32:23
  Yeah.
• 32:24
  And I also wanna be, like, be understanding of the fact that's not practical for everyone.
• 32:29
  Like, there are also certain, like, jobs where you have to... Like, I know I have a friend who's a tattoo artist, and, like, they're, the only way for her to, like, get new clients is through Instagram.
• 32:38
  That's where people look for tattoo artists.
• 32:39
  So it's not always practical or feasible to just completely disengage from, from social media for everyone, and that's a longer discussion- Especially not for writers ... again.
• 32:46
  Writers- Yeah, exactly.
• 32:47
  Yeah ... when we're promoting our books and things.
• 32:49
  Yeah.
• 32:49
  Okay.
• 32:49
  Exactly.
• 32:50
  So, um- So you also promised us that you would talk a little bit about some of the strategies to recharge, and that TV was good, right?
• 32:56
  Mm-hmm.
• 32:56
  Let me hear about that one.
• 32:57
  No, I'm just kidding.
• 32:58
  I- No- I like to justify- No, let's, let's talk about that ... my Netflix, my Netflix habit by saying, well, I'm consuming story.
• 33:04
  Because what I literally do, my- No, I think that's true ... my superpower- Yeah...
• 33:07
  is breaking down somebody's writing And I do the same thing when I watch television.
• 33:13
  Don't watch television.
• 33:14
  And isn't it fun?
• 33:15
  It's so fun.
• 33:16
  I ruin it- My kids stole my hat ... for everybody in my family.
• 33:18
  Oh, I know, my kid.
• 33:19
  You know, they were able to identify- They stole Tom and Meg's ... Mark Ruby when they were, like, seven.
• 33:23
  Oh, he's not gonna be the hottie.
• 33:25
  Like, they know what's coming in Euphoria.
• 33:27
  Oh, they're so hot.
• 33:28
  So talk about the ways to recharge.
• 33:29
  Yeah.
• 33:30
  Well, and so that, I love that you said that, too, because, like, it's just so true.
• 33:33
  And, like, with all of this stuff, too, like, let's say you're like, "But Erin, the way I disconnect from a really tough day is I watch funny animal videos on TikTok for 20 minutes or something, and it's, like, I've set a specific time." And so I think that the most important thing, and this is gonna be true with everything I've said today, is that the larger work here is learning how to pay attention to yourself, and to really listen, not to what society tells you is supposed to be recharging, not to what you think you should be doing to recharge, or what you should be doing to write, right?
• 34:01
  Like, none of the shoulds, but paying very, very close attention honestly to what is happening inside of your own body and inside of your own mind, and just inside of your emotions when you engage in activities.
• 34:12
  So the TV's a great example, because, like, this is one of the ways that, like, when I was having my own experience, that I, I disengage from social media during that time because it was, I tried setting boundaries around it, and that didn't work for me.
• 34:24
  And I do think it works for a lot of people, but it didn't work for me.
• 34:26
  But one of the things I realized I needed is I need just, like, an hour, maybe two per day, where I am just watching, like, sometimes it's, like, old TV.
• 34:34
  It's, like, maybe old procedurals.
• 34:36
  You know, I love me some Law & Order.
• 34:37
  Like, something like that where there's, like, a- Bum, bum Yeah, exactly.
• 34:42
  But there's, you know, it's, it's formulaic.
• 34:45
  I can kind of be just enough engaged in the story to, like, turn off the worrying and turn off the, like, my brain going 100 miles a minute, and I'm usually doing something else while I'm watching TV too.
• 34:55
  I'm, like, fidgeting and folding laundry a lot of the time because I have kids, and they have a lot of clothes.
• 34:59
  And so but, like, I maybe I'm just tidying or even, like, picking up or, like, moving around, but my brain is off, and I'm kind of just, like, in my own head, and I'm carried along by the story, like you said.
• 35:09
  So TV honestly is a big part of that.
• 35:12
  But I have ... You know, I'm trying to think of some other examples of what other I had mentioned the client that just set aside a half hour of time in her office to just, like, listen to music and maybe, like, draw and color a little bit.
• 35:23
  Again, physical activity, exercise.
• 35:25
  But it doesn't ... And this is where it can be tricky because I would want your listeners to think of the first thing that sounds relaxing to them and try it, and not, like, the thing that should be relaxing, like taking a bath or taking a walk or something someone told you to do, but what feels truly relaxing.
• 35:42
  And if it's reality TV, it's reality TV, right?
• 35:46
  If it's half an hour on TikTok watching funny animal videos, then that's what it is too.
• 35:50
  But then I, what I would caution you to do too is, like, okay, pay attention.
• 35:53
  How do I feel afterward?
• 35:55
  After I've done this, do I feel rested?
• 35:56
  Do I feel recharged?
• 35:57
  Do I feel like I've gained a little bit of just the ability to take a deep breath and, like, you know, come back to the rest, like, the world feeling a little bit refreshed, or do I feel worse?
• 36:07
  And that's the really important part is how, you know, paying very, very close attention to what your responses are because that's all that matters.
• 36:13
  You're the only one inside your own head.
• 36:14
  You're the only one who can know if what you are doing, if the activities you're engaging in are making you feel better or worse, right?
• 36:21
  So it takes some experimentation, and the only thing I would say to try for sure is something along the line of Michelle's laying on the floor, floor for five minutes, some way to let your brain get bored.
• 36:31
  So incorporate some way to let your brain get bored, mind wandering, staring out the window and daydreaming, letting yourself escape to the world inside your head instead of escaping into somebody else's world.
• 36:42
  And then also other things that just make you feel good, you know, that just make you feel rested.
• 36:47
  Um, and I've talked to enough writers who have been like, "I don't know what that is." Like, "I have been so busy and so burnt out, I have no idea." That's when you're like, okay, what I want you to do is block out a half hour or an hour if you can and just try almost anything.
• 37:01
  Just sit and stare.
• 37:02
  Sit and let ... Do the five-minute floor thing.
• 37:04
  Do ... You have to start somewhere, so you can start with just about anything, but you have to block out the time, and you have to be intentional about it.
• 37:10
  I'm still working on that.
• 37:11
  I mean, I've- Yeah ... tried lots of things.
• 37:12
  I've tried meditation and things.
• 37:14
  Not for me.
• 37:15
  I mean, parts of it are good.
• 37:16
  Yeah.
• 37:17
  It's not for everybody.
• 37:17
  So but I also need to recognize I'm not in the same camp as many writers because I'm extremely extroverted, which is unusual.
• 37:24
  Mm-hmm.
• 37:25
  And so for me, spending time with family or friends or kids can be that, you know- Mm-hmm ... not that I let my brain get bored, but, uh, I'm not thinking about work.
• 37:34
  I'm not thinking, you know, skiing or swimming, like, activities that I actually like- Versus exercise- Yeah ... which I think of as going to the gym, which I absolutely hate.
• 37:43
  Yeah.
• 37:44
  Impact.
• 37:45
  But I'm- That's important, too...
• 37:47
  yeah.
• 37:47
  Impact.
• 37:48
  Awesome.
• 37:48
  And that's exactly right.
• 37:49
  Great, great tips.
• 37:49
  Okay.
• 37:51
  If there was one thing that you wished more writers practiced on a weekly basis, what would it be?
• 37:57
  Intentionally getting bored.
• 37:59
  It really, really is.
• 38:00
  Yeah.
• 38:00
  That intentionally getting bored is so important for your, the, like, the health of your brain- Mm-hmm ... not just to mention the health of your creativity.
• 38:09
  And it's like letting yourself get to a place where you enjoy that time, and, like, giving yourself enough of a chance.
• 38:17
  And, like, letting ... As long as you're not actively being distracted by something, as long as you, like, do have a chance to get bored, it doesn't matter what you're doing.
• 38:25
  You could be riding a bike.
• 38:26
  You could be, like, wandering around the grocery store.
• 38:29
  You could be, like ... It almost, like, but you just have to, like, let that part, the constant attention-grabbing turn off.
• 38:37
  Um, it's that, and then also ... You said one thing, but- I did, but you can say two- But I'm thinking- ... 'cause you just know- I'm just thinking if there's ... Yeah...
• 38:44
  everybody's different.
• 38:45
  I think, and now I'm gonna say the other thing is pay attention to when you feel resentful, and listen.
• 38:49
  Listen to the parts of yourself that are feeling resentful.
• 38:52
  Because some of that negative self-talk, it's coming weirdly, it can be really mean, and we wanna just tell it to shut up a lot of the time.
• 38:59
  But better than that is, like, getting curious about it.
• 39:02
  So when you start to feel resentful, to ask the part of yourself that's feeling that, like, "What's going on?" Get curious about it.
• 39:09
  Really, really listen to what ... Like, I, again, I think of it as my, my inner toddler.
• 39:13
  "Why are you so, why are you so resistant?" And be honest, like, not, "Why are you so resistant?" But like, you know, "So what's going on?
• 39:19
  Why are you feeling resistant?" And then get really quiet inside your own head and listen to try Because, like, there's valuable information inside of that resentment and inside of that resistance.
• 39:28
  The resistance is meaningful.
• 39:29
  Yeah.
• 39:29
  And so if you can listen to that resistance, whatever it looks like, you're gonna get valuable information to help yourself be and do and engage in the things that you enjoy, right?
• 39:41
  Absolutely.
• 39:42
  Yeah.
• 39:42
  Okay, I'm gonna ask you a question, and I, I think I can, I think I'm gonna know what your answer is- ... since we were trained by the same people and with the- Yes ... same accreditation.
• 39:52
  Mm-hmm.
• 39:53
  Is it ever time to walk away?
• 39:55
  Is the answer ever to walk away from that writing?
• 39:59
  Yes, it is.
• 40:01
  And that can be really scary.
• 40:04
  So always remember, like, you can always change your mind, and that's the thing I think we get so like, "I have to finish this book, I have to finish this book, I have to finish this book." And so what I will tell writers when I'm like, "Well, what if this isn't the book," right?
• 40:18
  Or, "What if this isn't the project?" Or what if you're writing in a genre that you don't feel good about anymore for whatever reason or what have you.
• 40:25
  That can feel so scary.
• 40:26
  Yeah.
• 40:27
  And to remember that, you know, you can put a time limit on it.
• 40:29
  I'm gonna walk away from this for a month.
• 40:32
  I'm gonna walk away from this for six months.
• 40:34
  I'm gonna give myself some time and see how I feel, and then I'm gonna come back to it and reevaluate.
• 40:38
  So like, just because you decide to set something down, there's no rule saying you can't pick it back up again, and you can even set yourself a reminder, like on a calendar that says, "I'm gonna put the book away until September." Mm-hmm.
• 40:50
  And I'm gonna set myself a note on my calendar that's a- an appointment with myself that says, "Take it back," you know, reevaluate, you know, the book title, whatever it is, the book that you're working on.
• 41:00
  Reevaluate this project.
• 41:02
  And so even if you ... Because I know for me that comes, that fear comes sometimes.
• 41:05
  Like, am I gonna forget to pick it back up, or am I gonna abandon all the writing, right?
• 41:08
  It's like very cat- catastrophizing.
• 41:11
  You, you can change your mind.
• 41:12
  Like, you don't have to be locked into that.
• 41:14
  Yeah.
• 41:14
  But if you just feel like you're punishing yourself, and if you're feeling really resentful, that again, that resentment- Yeah ... and that resistance to something, that may be why you may need to set it aside.
• 41:23
  Yeah.
• 41:24
  Yeah.
• 41:24
  I mean, and do you miss it?
• 41:25
  Like, I, I like to call it- Mm-hmm ... and I do this in a lot of areas of my life- Yeah now that we're talking about it, where I try something on for a little while.
• 41:32
  Mm-hmm.
• 41:32
  Mm-hmm.
• 41:32
  It's like, it's like that overwhelm comes when you haven't made a decision.
• 41:35
  So make a decision and see how it feels.
• 41:37
  And if you don't like it- Exactly... and you go down path A at the fork in the road and it sucks- Mm-hmm because the trees are bare and it's scary, then maybe you go back and try path B, but you're not still standing- Yeah ... at the fork in the road and deciding what to do.
• 41:49
  Exactly.
• 41:49
  I was thinking of a big decision that I made when I was 16, so a little bit different- Mm-hmm ... but was quitting ballet, and there was a lot of shoulds involved.
• 41:56
  Mm. I mean, I did, never liked doing ballet.
• 41:59
  Yeah.
• 41:59
  It was never my choice.
• 42:00
  It was just something I grew up doing.
• 42:02
  I mean, I'm five foot 10.
• 42:03
  Mm-hmm.
• 42:03
  I was never gonna be a professional ballerina.
• 42:05
  Yeah.
• 42:05
  It's not, it's not okay.
• 42:06
  I'm like six foot five on point or something.
• 42:08
  But being away from it for 10 days and taking a vacation- Mm-hmm and not missing it and being like, I don't- Yeah ... miss it, and never going back and being like, or all right, I'm, I'm never going back.
• 42:18
  Yeah.
• 42:18
  And I didn't.
• 42:18
  Yeah.
• 42:19
  And my parents were like, "But we already paid." I'm like, "How much?" And I was like, "Woohoo, here's the money." Worked it over, and best money I ever spent.
• 42:26
  Uh- Yeah it's just like I don't miss it.
• 42:28
  So yeah, I mean, you know, if you're shoulding yourself into it, it is sometimes okay to walk away, but d- but try it on.
• 42:33
  Mm-hmm.
• 42:33
  Exactly.
• 42:34
  And if you don't miss it, if you miss it every day and you're crying because you're not writing, then go back.
• 42:39
  Of course.
• 42:40
  Um.
• 42:40
  Yeah.
• 42:40
  Okay.
• 42:41
  Awesome.
• 42:42
  So quick fire portion of this- Mm ... segment here.
• 42:47
  You have an anthology coming out.
• 42:49
  Yes.
• 42:49
  How long did that anthology take from the time you first heard about it or thought about it till- Oh ... when it's gonna be published?
• 42:57
  Okay.
• 42:57
  Well, and it's actually out on April 14th, so it's really soon.
• 43:00
  So, and I, I have to say I was co-editor of this anthology, and my co-editor is Janina Scarlet.
• 43:06
  And so she and I kind of conceived of this.
• 43:08
  She had the initial idea, which is, uh, stories, short stories told from the villain's point of view.
• 43:13
  And so then we kind of like, you know, which I adored.
• 43:16
  I loved the whole concept.
• 43:17
  And then we put together an open call for submissions, and we did that over the course of a couple meetings together.
• 43:23
  We love working together.
• 43:23
  It was super fun.
• 43:25
  And then we put the call out.
• 43:26
  I'm so terrible at, I have such time blindness when it comes to, like, remembering stuff like this.
• 43:31
  Yeah, cool.
• 43:31
  Less than a year.
• 43:32
  Yeah, but Janina lit a fire under everybody, 'cause she's that kind of person, which is excellent- Yeah because I am not.
• 43:37
  And so if I had been doing this by myself, I would probably still be editing this story because, like, I just, I can be such a perfectionist with that, so we work really well together because she's like, "Nope, we got a deadline." But then when, like, the deadline blows past, she's really kind about it, so again- we work really well together.
• 43:52
  Telling all her secrets.
• 43:54
  Yeah.
• 43:54
  She's fantastic to work with.
• 43:56
  I, I adore Janina.
• 43:57
  And so, but I think with that balance it was really good because then we were able to get this book out relatively quickly, and I'm just, one of the reasons I'm so excited about it is that we have a wide variety of experienced authors.
• 44:08
  So we have authors who are very experienced and have a really large following, and one author, like, this was from one of the very first things she ever wrote.
• 44:15
  Oh, so exciting.
• 44:16
  So like, oh my gosh, so the... And they're all promoting each other.
• 44:19
  So, like, we're gonna do a local book signing here.
• 44:21
  I have a Canadian author, and she's the only one from Canada.
• 44:24
  Amazing.
• 44:25
  So we have that.
• 44:26
  Love it.
• 44:26
  I don't know- Um, her name is Morag Worrall.
• 44:29
  Okay.
• 44:29
  And so she's got, she's got a short story, and she also writes nonfiction.
• 44:33
  And so yeah, so we're, there's gonna be a signing in San Diego.
• 44:36
  There's a signing here in Colorado, and so it's all these authors supporting each other too, so that's the other really exciting thing about it.
• 44:42
  Um, it's called The Villains Club, and the pre-order links are live now.
• 44:46
  When was, back to our quick fire.
• 44:47
  Yeah.
• 44:47
  When was your first big break?
• 44:49
  Like, the moment where you knew that all things writing was gonna be your job?
• 44:54
  You know what?
• 44:55
  I have never not wanted to be a writer since I was born into this world.
• 44:59
  In fact, oh, wait, I don't think I have one.
• 45:01
  Oh, I do.
• 45:03
  I still have these little... I started making books before I could... I'm showing a picture of- I have ones like that, too.
• 45:09
  Yes.
• 45:09
  Like, that staple together.
• 45:10
  And so my- Yeah.
• 45:11
  Yes.
• 45:12
  And I always named my main character, character Sarah, because it was the only name besides my own name that I knew how to spell, that I could remember how to spell.
• 45:18
  And there are no words in a lot of these.
• 45:20
  Like, they're just pictures.
• 45:21
  Like, this one has some, but like, I even have little ones made of sticky notes.
• 45:24
  Did you wanna be an illustrator when- So before... No.
• 45:27
  Well, I liked, I always liked to draw too, but- Okay.
• 45:29
  So it's always known what you wanted to be.
• 45:31
  Always, yeah.
• 45:32
  Okay.
• 45:32
  Mm-hmm.
• 45:32
  What's your best advice for newer writers listening to this podcast- Hmm ... who wanna break into the writing scene?
• 45:39
  Okay, so that's tough because, like, there's this whole angsty journey I feel like you take as a writer where it's like, just remember that publication doesn't necessarily mean...
• 45:49
  It's n- it's not like a, it's not permission, right?
• 45:53
  You have permission to write whether you're published or not forever for the rest of your life, and I think it always needs... It's easy to say this after you've been published, but it always needs to become from a place of joy and, like, passion for the work, and you don't need permission from any publication or, like, any, like, having even self-publish you don't need permission.
• 46:11
  Like, you c- you are a writer once you decide that you're a writer and you keep writing.
• 46:15
  And so just remember that, that you're, your voice, your voice deserves to be heard because you exist and because you decided to be a writer.
• 46:21
  So no one needs to give you permission to do it.
• 46:23
  And just kind of, I don't know, remember that, and, like, remember that choose environments where writers are supporting each other and not where they're, like, heavily criticizing you or trying to compete with you.
• 46:33
  So choose supportive writing environments where you lift each other up as much as possible because there are some, I would say, some more kind of toxic writing communities, like, that exist.
• 46:42
  And I'm talking tiny groups.
• 46:43
  Like, it's, it's not hard to find groups of writers that are maybe more discouraging.
• 46:47
  I agree with you, but the, but if you join one of those and you have that experience, it can create a lot of lasting effects in terms of- It can like your writing and your- And I know 'cause those people are my clients all the time.
• 46:58
  Yeah, I know, exactly.
• 47:00
  Yeah.
• 47:00
  It's like, my grade, my fourth grade teacher told me I'm, can't, I can't write.
• 47:04
  Um, yeah.
• 47:04
  Yeah.
• 47:05
  All of those things that we carry with us- Mm-hmm ... you need to be careful because I, I love what you just said and because honestly, I was actually really shocked when I joined the writing community that people were as supportive, and I was lucky- Mm-hmm.
• 47:17
  Yes ... um, that people were as supportive because I, I expected it to be more cutthroat, and I mean- Yeah ... I think it's just kind of how I roll that I find the positivity in everything.
• 47:27
  Um- There's a lot of good folks out there too, though.
• 47:29
  There really- There are.
• 47:30
  Yeah.
• 47:30
  But, but it's true because you don't need to see other writers as competition because guess what?
• 47:35
  Yes.
• 47:35
  It's this cool industry where you don't have to choose one pair of shoes, right?
• 47:40
  Mm-hmm.
• 47:40
  If you walk a mile in my character's shoes, guess what's gonna happen?
• 47:43
  You're gonna love it so much, you're gonna wanna walk a mile in Erin's character's shoes at some point.
• 47:48
  Yeah.
• 47:48
  So actually- Yeah ... my success, I mean, we like to say a rising tide lifts all boats, but- Yeah certain industries, that kind of isn't true because you either have an Apple, Apple computer or a PC.
• 47:59
  You probably don't have both at the same moment.
• 48:02
  Yeah.
• 48:02
  Right?
• 48:02
  So- Yeah, yeah ... in books, if you love one book and have that experience- Mm-hmm ... mine, I actually just created a reader for you.
• 48:10
  Like- Yeah, yeah ... like my success actually makes your book have a better shot- Mm-hmm at success, especially if it's a similar genre or- Yeah ... similar theme or something.
• 48:19
  Yeah.
• 48:19
  So, you know, we're not in competition, guys.
• 48:22
  Mm-hmm.
• 48:22
  Um, so let's support one another.
• 48:23
  That's what this podcast is all about, so I couldn't have- Yes ... ended it on a more positive note, Erin.
• 48:28
  Where can listeners, if they wanna work with you on their processes, they wanna talk about- Mm-hmm their writing processes, they want some advice, they wanna work through this process with you and resolve all of the burnout, all of the things, and make sure that they're- Mm-hmm ... on their way, where can they find you?
• 48:43
  I am at erinwritesmagic.com.
• 48:46
  So it's Erin, E-R-I-N-W-R-I-T-E-S-M-A-G-I-C.com, and all my stuff is there, and that's got my author page, and it's got ways to contact me, get in touch with me.
• 48:55
  I do have a Substack.
• 48:56
  You can find that from my website, and it's mostly just, like, I also...
• 49:00
  So I have ADHD, and so I write a lot about that on the, the Substack, so there's articles about that in there.
• 49:05
  But yeah, it's pre- it's easy to get in touch with me.
• 49:07
  There's a little form you fill out on my website, and you can chat with me.
• 49:09
  Awesome and amazing.
• 49:10
  Thanks so much for stopping by the podcast today and- Oh, it was so good to see you ... talking about this super, super important topic.
• 49:16
  Yes.
• 49:17
  Thank you, Suzy.
• 49:23
  Thanks for tuning in to the Show, Don't Tell Writing Podcast with me, Suzy Fiedory.
• 49:28
  It is my absolute honor to bring you the straight goods for that book you're writing or the book that you're planning to write.
• 49:35
  Please help me keep the podcast going by helping people find us.
• 49:39
  You can subscribe to the podcast and leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you're listening to show how much you enjoy the show.
• 49:48
  That's how other listeners will find us.
• 49:51
  Also, visit Suzyfiedory.com/newsletter to hop on my weekly inspired writing newsletter list, where you'll stay inspired and be the first to know about all the upcoming training events and writing courses that happen in my community.
• 50:05
  Want my eyes on your writing?
• 50:07
  Submit a page of your current draft for a chance to come on the podcast at the link in the show notes.
• 50:12
  I'd love to chat with you about your writing in my always positive, incredibly supportive way so that you can make great strides towards your writing goals.
• 50:22
  I'm here to cheer you on.
• 50:24
  Remember, that book you're writing is gonna open doors that you haven't even thought of yet, and I can't wait to help you make that it the absolute best it can be.
• 50:34
  See you again right here next week.