Latest / You Call That Radio? / Beyond The Cringe #2 w/ Carla Easton, Arusa Qureshi & Mark McG

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Beyond The Cringe #2 w/ Carla Easton, Arusa Qureshi & Mark McG · You Call That Radio?

• 0:00
  Speaker A: You call that radio? Hello and welcome to beyond the Cringe, the podcast that covers all aspects of Scottish culture in its widest sense. And we ask the questions about Scottish culture. What is it? Is there a Scottish culture? Should there be one? Is it any good? Are we the greatest people in the world or are we just embarrassing? For today's episode, we're going to feature specifically on Scottish music or music in Scotland. Depending how the conversation goes, we'll decide what it is we're actually going to be talking about. I've got two great guests with us today. Arusa Qureshi is a journalist who wrote a book on the women in British hip hop. Was it her? British hip hop? And Carla Easton, musician, singer and director of Since Yesterday. Fantastic film, which is. People can see it online at the moment.
• 0:54
  Speaker B: Yeah, it's on iplayer until November this year, which.
• 0:58
  Speaker A: Which is our history, not the history, our history of girl bands in Scotland. It's a. A fantastic watch. Very, very good film. I really enjoyed it and especially finding out about bands that I didn't know about before. But we're here to talk about Scottish music, the culture of Scottish music, where Scottish music fits into our culture. And also, just what is Scottish music to you? Because we all, I'm sure we all have a different view of what it is. And I'm going to start with Arusa. Actually a very, very difficult question. When you hear that phrase, Scottish music, what image does it conjure up for you?
• 1:33
  Speaker C: Honestly, I think it's hard to say. There's one specific image. I think for me, the image that comes up is something like a collage or like a patchwork quilt, something that's colourful because Scottish music has meant so many different things to me over the years. So as a child, I grew up playing instruments and at school, Scottish music to me was the Scottish fiddle music that I'd play and Scottish trad that I'd play with orchestras and various groups. At school and then getting a bit older, I had an older sister who was very much important to my, influencing my music taste. And I was obsessed with Nirvana when I was a teenager and early teens. And it's a bit of a round out way, I guess, of finding people on your doorstep. But because of getting into Nirvana, I got into the Vaselines and the pastels and Jesus and Mary Chain and then also through my sister who was obsessed with Travis. That era, I got into Travis and Texas and garbage and Idyllwild, people like that. But then going into uni and going into your. Going out Kind of days, Scottish music to me became more varied and wide reaching. So, you know, Martin Bennett and boards of Canada and Hudson Mohawk and Sophie and young fathers and just so many different things. So Scottishness meant so many different things to me by that point. And I think when you ask somebody to say, what is Scottish music? Especially somebody who's not from Scotland, they might come up with something like bagpipes or guitar bands. And that's totally fine because we should be proud of those things. And, you know, I am very proud of those things. But I think Scottish music now is just so varied in terms of artist and genre. But then when you ask as well, you know the phrase Scottish music, what does it mean to you? It's not necessarily all shiny, happy things. Unfortunately, negative things do come up for me as well. And I wish that wasn't the case, but that's the reality of being a woman in music.
• 3:36
  Speaker A: Yeah, being a woman in music. Carla, your film since yesterday tells a story that hasn't been told before. And I think I want to ask you, is the sort of history of Scottish music or Scottish popular music, is it a story of men written by men?
• 3:53
  Speaker B: Until now, I mean, making my film, it wasn't so much to critique on who told the story before, and it was more just as a practicing musician noticing I wasn't seeing bands that looked like my band on stage and wanting to kind of find them, to kind of justify what I was doing and my right to belong. You know, I was like talking about, I think I'm the same as you when I think of Scottish music. I think of bands more than sort of solo artists and always have from a young age and, you know, like being in a band, being in a collective, being in a gang. So, you know, at one point my gang was a gang called Teen Canteen. But when we arrived on the scene, we were very much. I think we were the only girl band at the time. Honey Blood were a couple of years after us and then, you know, there's been loads since then. But we were very alone and noticed we'd be the only girl band on a lineup at a festival or at any kind of gig. We were always referred to as a girl band or like female four piece.
• 5:03
  Speaker A: And I find that watching your film, I felt a big wave of guilt when it was a bit when you stood in the particularly like been called a girl band, I mean teen. When I saw. I thought Teen Canteen were fantastic band. And anywhere, anywhere they were on, I'd drag mates along saying, wait, you see this band Unashamedly a girl band, and they love it and all that stuff. And I thought, well, they did. I found out they didn't really.
• 5:23
  Speaker B: Yeah, well. And it was just sort of, you know, little things that were happening to us made me realize. And I've always been a record collector, so I think it was my friend Jenna, a flat party in my early 20s, we used to DJ, and she handed over a 7 inch of strawberry switchblade since yesterday. And I was like, can't believe this is from Scotland. Especially when I saw the music video. And so you think, there's one, there's got to be others. And then going on a hunt and then realizing you could find references to bands, but then you couldn't hear the music. And that was frustrating. And then asking why. But also then on a global perspective, taking a step back and going, actually, there's never really been a ghetto band on the level of, say, the Beatles, The Rolling Stones, U2, Coldplay, you know, we've had moments of it, but it's never been like careers of longevity. So it was all of that that kind of went into it. It was never so much of who's gatekeeping that history. I mean, certainly for our film, it becomes quite apparent when you watch it why these bands didn't, quote, unquote, make it and so subsequently why they would have been lost to time. But I think in 2025, when the stats are so bad still for women making music, it's time, I really just believe, in order to push forward, progress forward. That does involve looking at the past and going right, who's been left out systemically because of systemic sexism? And also, maybe I notice it more because I'm a practicing musician as opposed to a fan making a film about music or a fan writing a book about music.
• 7:02
  Speaker A: I mean, this is obviously a global thing. This happens across the world in music. Is Scotland worse or better or much the same as anyone else when it comes to that? Because we do have pretty well known sort of macho culture quite often, if you talk about Scottish plays and things like that, Scottish novels, people talk about the hard man kind of stuff. And do you think Scotland has a kind of sexism, machismo thing that. That makes that rears its head here more, or is it just much the same as anywhere else? Arusa, would you.
• 7:34
  Speaker C: I don't think it's unique, just in my opinion. I think it does happen everywhere. Just thinking about when I wrote my book about women in hip hop and I looked at different regions, I looked at Scotland And Wales, Northern Ireland. And in terms of women in hip hop in those regions, it was very much the same in terms of, you know, they just didn't really get a shot at a certain time because it was so male dominated. And I think that is the case in smaller regional scenes all over the world for sure.
• 8:02
  Speaker A: And in Scotland, do you think, do you have a particularly kind of sexist male culture in Scotland?
• 8:08
  Speaker B: Do you mean in terms of music or in general?
• 8:10
  Speaker A: In general.
• 8:14
  Speaker B: I mean, I think it's quite hard to say in any place do we not have a culture of sexism? Especially even if we just look at UK wide stats on violence against women and women being murdered by men. You know, it's, it's pretty serious at the moment. Certainly I think it would be wrong to say there aren't allies, you know, and I've always been lucky in my career to have felt supported by male figures, whether that's mentors, collaborators, men ran labels and things like that. But again, when you go back into it, it's more. Well, if we look at sexism and stuff, and then look at the Scottish music industry as an example, where are the women at the top level of that, you know, in terms of promotion, in terms of part of funding bodies, in terms of running labels. Because again, I think there's a systemic thing where subconsciously or not, people are signing artists that look like them or speak to them. You know, even when we see the key change initiative that was set up, I think the target was for festivals of 50, 50 gender split by 2022, it's 2025 and the key change is still ongoing and there's not one festival I don't think in Scotland has signed up to it.
• 9:38
  Speaker A: I mean, no festival in Scotland would get close to that 50, 50 anyway.
• 9:43
  Speaker C: I mean, the sad thing is that there's people that want that to happen who are working in the industry.
• 9:49
  Speaker A: There's acts out there that can show the slots. Yeah, that, is that, is that possible? Because I don't want to sound like I'm making excuses for them here, but if you want to sell tickets for a festival, you need some big older acts that have got like a longevity in a career to get a kind of wide range of people along. And is that going to be like an over, like an overhang from before that, those big acts where, as you see, where's the girl bands that were as big as the Beatles or the Stones or anything like that? But if you, you put on a big, big act, where's the big, big female acts from that. So the younger generation of female acts might match in terms of quality, in terms of how well known they are, the male bands or the male acts on there. But their headliners, we're going to have that hangover for a few years that they're all going to be from the era when men dominated completely.
• 10:40
  Speaker B: I think when you look at festivals such as Primavera in Spain, who announced their lineup pretty much the same week as transmit year on year. And if you look at a festival like that, they did sign up to gender equality parity and the year on year do or surpass it, I think. And even if you look at their lineup this year, it's like Chapel Rowan, Sabrina Carpenter, Charli xcx, like all these big names and stuff. So, you know, I think as a person making music, I don't wanna ever be booked for something just because of who I am. You wanna be booked because someone believes in what you're doing. But similarly, can I get booked for, you know, someone believing what I'm doing? If in my career I've been told you only get the opportunity to progress if you lie about your age, you know, if you dress a certain way and things like that and have these obstacles that stop you progressing to being booked as the next headliner. But I think in general, I would say, you know, I feel really hopeful and positive about Scotland because of this self organization that's happening at a grassroots and DIY level. Like I think the grassroots and DIY level in Scotland is pushing for change, is progressive and it's more just the top down engaging with that. Yeah, you know, I mean, if we look at, for example, swim, that was set up in the last sort of five, six years and originally that was meant to be just spotlighting women that were excelling within classical music. But they put. And all of a sudden bands from all genre and artists from all genre were signing up to be part of a membership. Producers, promoters, DJs, women of all walks of life wanted to be part of swim. SWIM got overwhelmed, which is part of the reason why they're kind of not going anymore. It just couldn't function. But what they did do was manage to get, as you would say, like a seat at the table for change to be happened. They got recognized on a governance level, you know. So what we really need is an organization to come in and act as an umbrella for all the things going on, like Henhuis Amplify, Pop, Girls, Girls Rock, Edinburgh and Glasgow and probably more that are going on that we're not aware of and pull everyone together. And then I think that could be real change. Like, I think the Scottish music industry gave itself a pat on the back for swim existing, but didn't help swim to exist and keep going.
• 13:16
  Speaker A: And the fact that it was overwhelmed and couldn't function just shows just how big a problem there was. And, yeah, you have to take it seriously, make it a much bigger effort. Do you think, do you find writing about music, Orissa, that is that still male dominated here in Scotland? Because I do see, and I don't want to name names, but the guys that were writing about music when I was a teenager, some of them are still writing about music in the same papers. Not that. Not that they're not good writers, but.
• 13:42
  Speaker C: You know, I guess going back to what you were asking Harl about men writing about Scottish men in music from a journalism perspective, I think there are a lot of incredible women writing about Scottish music right now who are really, really talented writers who are doing great things. But I guess historically, going back, I'm not sure, like 80s, 90s, how many women there were writing about Scottish music. But I think a lot of the problem in journalism is that there are still not enough women in editor positions that are potentially given the power to commission. And as a result, I think there's so few opportunities as it is in magazines and publications and everyone's competing and it's really difficult. But what I found in Scottish journalism is that a lot of the same people, like you're saying, end up getting commissioned for the same things. So again, you've got certain writers who've been writing for publications for 20 years and that's not dissing them at all. They're great and I have a lot of respect for them. But I think the problem is that you miss the opportunity to bring in new voices who potentially have, you know, insight, knowledge about new genres and new voices.
• 14:51
  Speaker A: All of them were new voices at the time.
• 14:53
  Speaker C: Yeah, exactly.
• 14:54
  Speaker A: A lot of those guys, when they started writing, when I was involved in music business, even before that as a fan, they were very young people. They were young people writing about the young music at the time. Most of the good music, the exciting music, is made by young people.
• 15:07
  Speaker C: And that's not to say that any of these journalists don't have the knowledge. Of course they do. But sometimes they might miss things that otherwise young journalists, new journalists might. Yeah, exactly. And I think the really difficult thing as well is that budgets are so tight. So I understand that there's not a lot to commission out there at the moment. But I also think that it makes it kind of a breeding ground for exploitation in terms of young journalists. So we go into this whole other issue about people not being paid and all that kind of stuff, and it's a bit of a mess. I don't really know what the answer is, but if we want to hear about diverse stories and diverse artists, you just need diverse voices writing about it. It's just a kind of fact.
• 15:47
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean, in Scotland, do we have. Do we have a music business the way that they would have it? Is it mainly a British. Is it a UK music business we are part of? Is there an actual Scottish music industry? I mean, from my own lifetime, I do remember that when Simple Minds got their first big record deal that they were known as, and it was quite shocking for everybody that they decided to just keep their management and everything in Scotland. And it was like, people thought, are you mental? You need a manager in London. I mean, that's not. Does they feel that long ago? To me, it's obviously quite a while ago now. But up until that point, nobody even thought of having a manager in Scotland or anything like that. Even your bank account in Scotland, you did a deal with an English record company under English law. You needed an English lawyer and all that kind of stuff. Until that point, nobody did it. Now, I know that there's loads and loads of people doing all sorts of things in the Scottish music scenes, but is there an actual kind of recognized music industry, or are we still part of a regional part of a British scene?
• 16:54
  Speaker B: I'm going to be what is potentially somewhat controversial and might anger quite a lot of people listening. Say, I don't think we do have.
• 17:02
  Speaker C: A. I mean, I was gonna.
• 17:03
  Speaker B: Scottish things industry up here, I think we've got loads of talent, more talent than probably there should be for a country with such a small population. We've got some great small DIY labels. We do. And we've got some people that are really passionate about music being made in Scotland. But in terms of an actual infrastructure and industry that allows artists to become cultural exports to stay in Scotland for the money on their music, you know, even just in a tax purpose, coming back into Scotland to further the scene, I don't think that exists. Like, if we look at even the last few bands to have, like, made it out of Scotland in the last few years, kind of Church's young fathers, Lewis Capaldi, they're all working with people outside of Scotland. And I think. I mean, it's always been a running joke in Scotland as well, that there's been like one music lawyer for about the past 20, 30 years or two at most, you know, and they're retired. So. Yeah, I just, I think loads of talent, loads of really passionate people, loads of great promoters, loads of small labels. But in terms of next step for artists, I think there's not the infrastructure here yet.
• 18:29
  Speaker A: We don't have, I mean, so small labels. We don't have any. We don't have any major label that's based in Scotland that would sign an album or publishers, free album deal or anything with any, any young band that doesn't exist at all, does it?
• 18:43
  Speaker C: No. And yeah, I just want to totally echo what Carl is saying because I agree and I think the Scottish music industry is small, but it's too disparate. And I think, like Carla's saying, there's some wonderful people that work in Scottish music, wonderful organizations, people doing really, really great things. But one of the issues I have, and I guess I want to emphasize this is my issue and like my opinion is that in Scottish music there, it's still overwhelmingly kind of run and managed by a handful of men who don't want change to happen because it doesn't benefit them. Again, that's my opinion. But the kind of boys club, the competitive bullshit, I don't have time for that. I know a lot of women that work in music in Scotland have said the same to me. They just don't have the energy or the time to deal with that.
• 19:33
  Speaker A: I don't even think that's controversial. I think you can accept that as being right, mostly. I mean, it's probably, it's probably, as we said earlier, not just unique to Scotland.
• 19:41
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 19:41
  Speaker A: But I see it as someone who's not involved in music industry at all. It used to be, it used to be my job. But I see it all the time and I see it all the time through the fact that they must be good gatekeepers. They must be gatekeepers because they're still there.
• 19:56
  Speaker C: Yeah, exactly.
• 19:56
  Speaker A: Because I was still dabble in doing a few, Helping out a few things of friends, I mean, who do quite big gigs and things like that. And if I go along, it's the same people. It's the same people running it. It's the same people DJing between the acts. It's the same people. And as I say, they're probably all decent people, but whether they're doing it consciously or subconsciously, they're definitely gatekeeping because it's still the same white men running the show that did 30 40, even years ago. It's a long time.
• 20:25
  Speaker C: And I personally think that we can't have a standalone thriving industry until we kind of address and take away certain bad behavior and that kind of survival of the fittest mentality, because I just don't think that works for how we all work within the music industry now. It's not like that. And beyond that, just to say, just to kind of echo what Carla was saying, we need more investment into things like allowing artists to grow and spread beyond Scotland and, you know, if we had investment in export, I think that would make such a big difference. And then also targeted funding when it help. When it comes to helping with recording albums, organizing tours, all those things are really important and we just don't have that right now.
• 21:09
  Speaker B: It's weird though as well, because it's not even so much that, though it's. It's just still so London Centric.
• 21:15
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:16
  Speaker B: Isn't it? Like, even if you look at like supposedly national awards, like the Mercury Awards or even the Brett Awards, it's still so London. Yeah, Centric.
• 21:26
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I think before in the past, there was times where it stopped in London centric for a wee while, but it was always a fad. It was always at Mersey Beat and Madchester and it was a time in Scotland had that when every record label went to a Scottish band, whether they were any good or not. So everybody got a record deal in the late 80s kind of thing. And Mark, I was going to. Actually, I'm going to bring in a producer, Mark here, who's also a musician and producer of music and concert promoter or whatever. And on that thing about a Scottish music scene and the fact that the same people are there in charge, do we need to just replace them or do we need to do something brand new that just sweeps them away if, you know, sweep them away.
• 22:09
  Speaker D: Yeah, I think I agree with everything just said there. But it's also worth pointing out that the sort of old white, middle class and upper class, there's a class issue going on as well. And as somebody who's always been diy, never worked with, you know, never worked with DF or pcl, so it's not like it's easy to do anything independent. Even though I've got the privilege of being of white and male, there is privileges there, but there's also a massive class issue and it's so difficult. I mean, I've just finished an album and it takes ages to do it. When you are working for yourself and you're not don't get any funding. Never had any funding for anything. So there's an issue going on. But I think it's worth bearing in mind that there's a class issue going on as well.
• 23:00
  Speaker C: I totally agree with you, Mark, because it goes back to that investment thing. As a DIY person or somebody working in the grassroots, how can you get anywhere if you don't have the investment or the funding of court to help?
• 23:10
  Speaker D: You just try to pay bills. Yeah, you try to pay bills. So it's quite hard to, you know, right now, just looking at the. Because we've been offered lots of gigs to go on tour with album and, you know, even I was talking to Joe yesterday about the Twist. It's thinking about touring the album and it's just actually quite sad that we're considering, you know, maybe the best way to make the album is not going tour and just go into Canva and try and make little videos, little snippets. It might be more financially viable to do it that way to promote the album, which is just really sad because there is a demand to see us down south and stuff. But without the money to invest in proper promotion and proper, you know, sponsored ads, something I've never done really, as well, it just seems like it's a financial risk and I've already risked money on the album, so it's just like, how much money can you actually risk?
• 24:04
  Speaker B: It's not even a risk, though, is it? I can't afford to tour. Yeah, I cannot afford to tour. And do you know, last year there was. It was at the beginning of last year, a promoter, a white male promoter, middle class, told me, I cannot make a career by just playing central Scotland now and then. And I was like, well, unlike you, I can't afford to just, like, fuck off on tour, you know, I'm predominantly freelance these days. I'm low income. If I'm doing a gig, it probably means I'm not earning money elsewhere. I'm also a solo artist, so I'm trying to make sure people on stage get paid to play with me. Can I pay the musician union rate? Can I fuck? Do you know, for half an hour? I think it's. You're meant to get 194lbs per musician on stage. I don't know any promoter that can pay that. And, yeah, you're right, Mark, I can't afford to tour. I would love to tour. I'm same. Got a new album and I'm like, it would make more sense for me to sit at home and Perform and film it and put it online because the cost of travel, the cost of accommodation, the cost of per diems, that's even if I went to tour on my own, just me and a guitar without a band, you know, I've been on tour lately doing support shows for a Nashville songwriter, two time Grammy nominated Nashville songwriter over tour in the uk and she was like, what the fuck is up with UK fees right now?
• 25:33
  Speaker A: Well, I mean that is a very real problem and that goes way beyond the music industry. I mean I know comedians who regularly gigged in England and don't anymore and it's probably since COVID and hotels and everything just became astronomical with the cost of living crisis that followed that. So I know guys that used to be able to go down to Manchester and do a gig for £150. Now you can't because your train fare in your hotel will be more than 150 quid. Whereas before even just five, six years ago, I know lots of comedians could do that. So we are sitting in that situation where you don't get paid, you don't get paid anything like the musicians union rates. Fair Play, a company I work for sometimes pay musicians union rates, but it's just, it's built into everything, the whole cost of the whole show. But it's difficult if you're promoting gigs. It's actually difficult that everybody on stage should get 200 quid for even 20 minutes.
• 26:29
  Speaker D: And it's something that's a conversation that comes up every so often in the festival world as well, whereby somebody that's maybe from an opera or ballet background starts saying why does the festival not play musician union rates? The simple fact is the festivals can't afford to do that. The independent ones anyway, the bigger ones can, should pay in my opinion. But there's just. The festivals are struggling as well, so they can't. It will just put people off giving grassroots artists a chance because it's like why would you, why would you book somebody that's not going to sell a ticket and pay them 5 people Musician union rates? I don't think anytime we've been paid musician union rates is just because we've put on the gig ourselves and it happened to do really well.
• 27:12
  Speaker B: So I always wonder how we combat it. Like do we combat it by saying by making these things more aware to audience, to music fans about the cost, like okay, you want to go to this gig, this is how much this ticket should cost you for the people that you're fans of to get paid fairly. This is how much the ticket would be because it's, you know, when we're living in an economic crisis anyway, people are going out less. I mean we talk about it all the time, like how pre sales for local gig tickets are falling. A lot's getting canceled because promoters are like, I can't put this on if there's only been like 10 pre sale tickets, things like that. And then, but weirdly the cost of like a big show is going through the roof and then you bring in dynamic pricing on top of it. So it's just so desperate. It's like one extreme to the other. You know, there probably is like, okay, we're, we're sitting in the south side of Glasgow right now. There's probably going to be a show on the Rumshack or the Glaad Cafe up the road and that ticket probably should be £20 and it's probably for local small indie artists. But it's more likely going to be priced about 10 to 12.
• 28:27
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, no, I mean that is, I think, I think that's a very real problem. And the, the value that we place on. And if you're coming up from a sort of, you know, like a self employed, how do we describe it before? Like your sort of indie stuff, the diy, diy. If you're, if you're, if you're coming up through that. There has been a tendency to say, to be, feel a bit guilty about charging too much and I tend to think that people can't afford to go out. But when you, when you do afford to go out, then whether a ticket's £14 or £18 isn't really an issue. If you're going to buy a ticket, you're going to buy it but it's 40 pound or 18 pounds on the nights that you can't afford. So rather than put prices down because people can afford to go, it's like just keep prices to the value of what they should be and maybe people just have to go less.
• 29:18
  Speaker B: But, but at the same time though, you don't want it to be that like going to a gig or buying a record is just for people with disposable income. You want art and culture to be available to all, don't you?
• 29:31
  Speaker D: Our demographics mostly working class people in low income. So you know, I think we've, I don't want to, I couldn't go above £15 and that's a special case. I try and keep everything the five or to tener, but obviously an album lunch I've had to go for £15. And I don't think you. I know you're saying that the extra fiverr doesn't make any sense. Just my gut feeling, from a promoter's point of view is they only pay 20 quid to see a local band when they could see somebody touring for 20 quid. I worry about that.
• 30:00
  Speaker C: I worry about that you might be.
• 30:02
  Speaker D: Right as well, because obviously you're not.
• 30:03
  Speaker A: A local band, you're a national.
• 30:05
  Speaker D: We're international. We're international. We've got band members from the kingdom.
• 30:09
  Speaker A: You're only a local band because you can't afford to do gigs anywhere else.
• 30:12
  Speaker C: I really agree with that too. And as somebody that puts on gigs, I think. And we were talking about the infrastructure of Scottish music, part of the problem is, as audiences, we need to do more to support local gigs and go along to see local artists. You know, when I was working at Summerhall, I tried to make gigs as cheap as I possibly could while making sure people were paid well. And it is really, really hard to do, but it's even harder when nobody turns up. And, you know, I think we're still in that kind of post Covid era of people not really going out to gigs. Like my little brother's at uni and him and his friends don't go out at all. They just don't. And like, when I was his age, I was at gigs every night.
• 30:53
  Speaker A: But there was. There was actually a culture then of free music, though, and I think this is to do maybe with a licensing trade, with a hospitality industry. There was an accepted thing back then, a pub would put on a band and pay the band without a fee on the door because they made their money. If you packed the pub out. And that would happen everywhere, not just in, say, I can remember that pub in Hulk Bar in Midlands Road.
• 31:16
  Speaker D: I was actually going to get free bands on a hued last week, talking about but this bar and all the.
• 31:21
  Speaker A: Kind of punk era and post punk era, all of those places were. Virtually all of those places at Dun Castle and Shorelines and they were all free. We'd go along and see all these bands free of charge or. Or for a very, very small. But the. But the. It was a hospitality and they paid for it. They knew, if I can get 200 people in here drinking, I'm going to use that profit to invest a van to bring people in.
• 31:42
  Speaker C: But then that's another issue as well, because people aren't drinking as much. So that's really suffering.
• 31:47
  Speaker A: Scotland needs to drink more, drink more.
• 31:49
  Speaker B: Scotland needs to I guess it's all intrinsic, isn't it? Because if you're a new young band, it's going to cost you more to be that new young band, isn't it? Because of fuel to get to gigs, because of studio costs, because of rehearsal costs, even just like a basic, you know, three hours in a room, in a rehearsal. I think I had a Facebook memory pop up and it was like my first ever band and Young Fathers playing at Cab Vol in Edinburgh for £2. I was like £2. But I don't ever remember walking away from that going. We felt shortchanged as a band as well.
• 32:23
  Speaker A: You know, I used to run a club in Komarna and not run a whole club, just a club, an indie night if you like, once a week. And it was a great era because it was the late 80s and all that kind of stuff. When I look back on those posters, all the gigs were 2 quid and I think we charged 3 quid for prayable Scream because we thought they were a bit bigger, they were a bit bigger. 80 people came and. But it was kind of that kind of level, that three quid. Oh, we really written people off here and all that. But I do think that back then you also had this culture of working men's clubs and miners welfare clubs and all that. And in the 60s, if you ever go check out local papers for the 60s to mining towns and you'll see like Auchinlecht, Miners Club, David Bowie, Newcom Pigeon Club, the Moody Blues, things like that, all these bands toured everywhere. And again I think there was a small cover charge of 50 pence, but for that you got a pie in peas as well or something like that. And so there was a structure there where people could actually play live all the time.
• 33:22
  Speaker D: It was still related to drinking though. And it was a sad realization. About 12 years ago, roughly, I ran a venue, I was the main booker and I remember being really excited because I'd like did something independently that sold out the entire venue and the owners complaining that the Friday night had done better than the Friday night had a great scan night on. But 40 middle aged scar fans out drank 200 independent fans. And I realized it. The numbers don't lie was a phrase that was used. And that's when I realized that I wasn't working for the music industry, I was working for the, the drink industry. And unfortunately that's the pattern. And I don't know how we go. We need to sort of reevaluate that because I do notice that even though the after party. Normally we have the big after party and we usually get a kickback from the venue for if the, if the bar does well. And I've noticed that. I don't know if it's because I think it's mainly the cost of living crisis, plus our demographic getting a little bit older. But people aren't drinking, they either can't afford it or good for them, they're looking after their health more. But there's something to change, I think.
• 34:27
  Speaker B: LinkedIn to all this. There's certainly a culture, I mean, sometimes I'm mentoring younger musicians come up and there seems to be a lot of impact on mental health in terms of not feeling like they're doing enough, not feeling that they're on the correct career trajectory and things like that. And that's all heavily linked into social media and what we're seeing and what we're seeing pumped out and all that. And then when I realized like everyone in sort of my peer group in the music industry in Scotland, we all have other jobs, we all have other sources of income, whether it's in the creative industries or the non creative industries. And how in academia that seems to be being talked about a lot. But on a general music level, whether that's creators, music fans, we're not talking about that. And I mean, I guess this is linked, but it's not linked. But yeah, when I see up and coming artists and they're worrying about money and stuff anyway and you know, because sometimes I do feel guilty, I'm like, God, I'm perpetuating this idea that all I do is sit at home, write songs and occasionally make an album or fanny off and make a film for eight years of my life. But it's not that like I'm constantly like, where's the money coming in? What other re random job can we do? I've still got a part time job, you know, in like working probably more hours than my brothers do a week that have, you know, proper jobs. Not in the creative industries.
• 35:45
  Speaker C: No, I feel the same way in terms of like music journalism. I feel really guilty encouraging or saying to anyone that they should get into it because I think it's just impossible to have a career solely in journalism, music journalism. And I think it's important to be realistic about that and say to people that are coming up, this is the reality of it. Because you know, once you get to that stage and you're struggling, I just, I don't want people to go through that if they have that in advance and they know what they need to do to be able to make it work. That's, that's good. But people shouldn't lie to anyone.
• 36:13
  Speaker B: No, I know. And it's a portfolio career. That's what academic academics are all writing the best portfolio career in the music industry. I know, a portfolio degree. And. And then you're like, right, that's cool for you to all talk about us doing that, but. And I hate using the word normalize. I really hate it because it suggests otherness and whatever. But I think, yeah, we probably need to normalize that. The condition for making music as an independent artist is it's not your. You're not, it's not your income anymore.
• 36:48
  Speaker A: Things have changed dramatically in the last few decades. Even in journalism. It wasn't that long ago where newspapers would employ lots of people who employ full time music writers. More than one probably full time personality review the television. All these people, a full time correspondent based in New York and based in Moscow and all that. None of that happens anymore. So the employers are not there and the record companies. The music business changed a lot as to where they derived their money from, how the money came in and when I managed bands, I say it was late 80s and all that. One of the bands I managed signed a brilliant big record contract and it meant everything was then taken care of. Everything, Absolutely everything. You had a travel agent, you had a booking agent. Everything was laid on for you. And it meant you could get on with the business in hand of just playing loads of gigs and sitting in a studio for three months and somebody else is paying for it and all that. I don't think that exists at all. Even bands that get record deals get a deal for somebody who's going to put your record out for you and you're going to get.
• 37:52
  Speaker D: You're already successful if you're getting signed for the most part, you've already got your followers. You've already proved that you can sell out tickets up and down the country. There's not like an a. They just sees you at a Gigna and goes, oh there, let's invest in that band and give them a chance to fail and try stuff out.
• 38:13
  Speaker A: Is there a way of changing this and is there a way of us getting a mechanism or an industry or a body together that pays young journalists, it pays young musicians.
• 38:26
  Speaker D: I think we just need better a socialist government or something. I don't know. It goes to the politics that arts is not. It's actually good that the arts isn't doing well. I think it's almost a Managed decline of the arts. And it's affecting everything from the journalism to the artists. I don't think the government cares and there's just. We've got austerity and people. The first thing it goes to, people going out. So, yeah, I think it's big changes. I don't. I don't. I don't know if there's anything that we can do. I don't know.
• 38:59
  Speaker C: I agree. I think it's big changes too. But just. Just thinking about journalism, like, what you get paid for an album review now is probably what people got paid for, like 20, 30 years ago. That has not changed.
• 39:10
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 39:11
  Speaker C: And that's mad to think about. But then I've got. I know every country has their problems and Scotland's not unique, but I've got friends in Canada who tour and are doing very well because they've got a lot of support from the Canadian government and a lot of support.
• 39:25
  Speaker A: There's a lot of support in Canada from individual states as well, to support their big festivals, their fringes. I have a friend who's a poet who goes to Canada every year and tours the various fringes, Edmiston and all these places, and then takes the rest of the year off as a big, long summer holiday because Canada, touring Canada on its own is his annual salary, you know what I mean? And you never get that over here. And poets don't get paid at all. Usually we're allowed four poets, I think, at a time. So we're all waiting and one of them to die, so we can all fight over what's left. But do you know what I mean? That's all government support. I do remember you said about austerity, man. I do remember reading a few years ago, when we were in the midst of the last Tory government's austerity and that we were cutting budgets and again, arts was cut, education was cut, everything was cut. And the German government at the time was cutting the budgets of every department apart from Arts and Culture, and they were putting it up by 20% because they realised in times of austerity, we need more art.
• 40:28
  Speaker B: There's two things I was going to say off the back of the last thing you said, Mark. I think you only get signed if you've got money now, you know, like, you've got to have that money to even get noticed by the record label. So it's that as well. Which means unless you've got money in the arts, you're not.
• 40:44
  Speaker D: Yeah.
• 40:44
  Speaker A: So it's getting aimed more. It's getting aimed More at the privileged people are getting more now.
• 40:49
  Speaker B: Yeah, totally.
• 40:50
  Speaker A: And that's true in journalism as well, isn't it really?
• 40:52
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 40:52
  Speaker D: Because you have to, you know what you saying somebody that's got a full time or a part time job as well, you want them to just be able to work for pennies.
• 41:00
  Speaker B: I'm glad that there was this U turn from the Scottish government and you know, the multi year funding got absolute loads and loads and loads of money. I think it was the most they've ever been given in a budget. But it's like crazy that we had to get to that point for that to happen.
• 41:16
  Speaker C: Like so many people's mental health has been totally destroyed by this process.
• 41:20
  Speaker A: The delay for three months just was.
• 41:23
  Speaker B: Devastating for some it was and people will not recover from that. But I think what I find interesting in the whole thing is, you know, the Scottish government are talking about moving towards being a well being society, want a wellbeing society and great four day weeks and all that. Everyone's happy and supported and things and how the wellbeing of society is so intertwined. I don't think you can separate that from arts and culture. You know, one day a week I'm through in Greenock at Rig Arts which is a charity run by Karen and Jason Orr who work tirelessly round the clock for that building and everyone that goes in there to use its services, it's free, it's free access and it's in Inverclyde which is the most deprived area in Scotland. And the delay in waiting are we gonna get the funding? And we're still waiting on Youth music initiative to see will that come through. And I was just thinking like, God, there's some people that come and use this and this is maybe like two hours a week. They feel safe and accepted for who they are, you know, gets them into a safe environment. Maybe their house isn't safe, feel supported in a way that maybe they're not at school for, for two hours a week. And that's not even about arts funding in terms of, you know, the people that are going to Rig Arts are going to have successful careers as creative and make work of value. I mean obviously it's been great having a wee banda mentor come through and they're doing really well. But the majority of kids I'm working with are just going to develop their social skills and build confidence and that's well being. So you take those services away, you take those community writer groups, you take those groups away for, I don't know, like reading Groups for women, maybe that's the only time they're safe, that you take that away, you take away wellbeing. So that's what really.
• 43:13
  Speaker A: And so much of the arts talk about music and well being. I think sometimes we forget about that. And I remember a few years ago there was a lot of arguments about artists and funding and there was a bit of people railing against it about, you know, it's all middle class people that get the funding anyway and all that stuff. And I remember pointing out to a few friends that, you know, the art gives you as the joy in your life. You know that song you sang at the karaoke? An artist wrote that, you know what I mean? And you're having pleasure singing it, your pals or pleasure watching you do it and all that stuff. You don't need to have a career in the arts to know just how important it is to people's lives. Music especially. I want to bring it back to you. I see a team getting on now, so I want to bring it back to this idea of Scottish culture and how we see ourselves in Scotland. I've also. There's kind of two schools of thought in Scotland. There's this kind of Scottish exceptionalism. You've seen us at a tea towel that says we invented everything. Scotland invented everything. We invented that idea that we invented everything.
• 44:16
  Speaker D: Like the tea towel.
• 44:17
  Speaker A: The tea towel, yeah. It says on it. We invented the phone, the television, the this or that, all the. I can't even remember what. We invented all these things. I think Wellington boots. Was that one of us else? And anyway, we have, we have that school of thought and we've got an. We've got another almost miserableist kind of look at it, saying, you know, Kent is fair. I sit down, stop showing off and all that kind of stuff. You know what I mean? Who are you? Who do you think you are? And all that. And almost scared of, you know, flamboyance, scared of success, scared of noise even. And so, I mean, I think there's these clashing things in Scotland and that's why people talk about the cringe, the Scottish cringe and all that. We're scared. The fear of flying, we're scared of success or scared of being judged for showing off. Is it any different from anywhere else? Is there a Korean cringe, do you think? Is there a Mexican cringe?
• 45:12
  Speaker B: Maybe it's that cringe is what makes Scotland good at productivity, you know, that and the miserable weather. Like it's shite to go outside. So you're just gonna sit in and invent stuff and write songs and make great art and stuff. But I don't know. I mean, I've always found that an endearing quality of like working in Scotland is it's like you're kept humble, you know, you're kept grounded. Because it's like you canna turn around and be like, I did this. And it was really fucking great, you know? Cause it'll be like, not you didn't he. And so I don't know. But I think. I mean, me and Blair spoke about that a lot when we were making the film. That we don't talk about how great we are and doing things. And.
• 45:57
  Speaker D: Sometimes I think we do know that.
• 45:59
  Speaker B: Sometimes I think we do. Sometimes I think it's easier to platform others rather than yourself. But I don't think that's a bad thing. I think that can maybe generate community and peer to peer support is a wonderful thing. Especially when we're cultivating our own little industry because it's so London centric.
• 46:21
  Speaker A: But yeah, is there a Scottishness? I mean, when I grew up again, old guy going back when I grew up, everybody sang in American accents. The people who formed punk bands back in the day sang in London or Essex accents and all that. I mean, I managed a band called Trash Can Sinatras. It was the first time I'd heard the guy singing in a Scottish accent. Not like the Proclaimers, just singing the way he would sing. Carla does it. People sing in your own accent and all that. That was kind of unheard of. But I've always thought that Scottish music, is it influenced by Scotland and Scottishness and Scottish culture, Scottish traditional, or is it just part of a wider thing? Because if you think of all those great bands of that late 80s, early 90s stuff, the teenage fan clubs and Superstar and all those kind of. They're very much American sounding bands. And if you think of the sort of big, the bigger kind of stadium type bands like the Simple Minds and Mogwai and all that very European. Is there any Scottish influence in it? Does being Scottish matter? Has the Scottishness come through in the good Scottish music? Arisa does it to you? Can you see it?
• 47:38
  Speaker C: I feel like Scottishness means so many different things in the context of Scottish music. But just to take it back to your point on accents and just to take it back to hip hop for a second, this was very much a thing in hip hop where in all regions of the uk, when hip hop first started kind of emerging in the uk, people were using American accents because that's what they heard, and that's what they thought was right. But also crucially, because in America, they did not take anyone seriously that did not have an American accent. And it wasn't for. Until, you know, quite a while, people started rapping in Scottish accents. But even now in America, I know for a fact, looking at social media and looking at how, you know, not just Scottish, but UK rap on the whole is seen, Americans still take the best out of him. They still make fun of it. Even though we can say, we've got an amazing scene here. We've got so much going on. So I think when it's a genre like hip hop that has traveled the world and created its own scenes in different places, I think it's hard to say. You have to always say, okay, well, hip hop is a uniquely American, African American genre, and you have to kind of pay homage to that. But you can still say, this is our version of that. And it's evolved and grown and we've created our version of that.
• 49:00
  Speaker A: It was a huge Scandinavian jazz scene with loads of great musicians. It still was an American culture that you were sort of mimicking. But do Americans. Do, you know, do they have the same attitude to say French rappers? Because French rappers sound pretty good.
• 49:16
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 49:16
  Speaker A: I don't know what they're saying, but.
• 49:18
  Speaker C: Wrap around the world like another language. It sounds so.
• 49:21
  Speaker A: Any other language.
• 49:22
  Speaker D: Kneecaps, Kneecaps. Bringing the Irish language to hip hop. They're taking that seriously.
• 49:26
  Speaker A: For some reason, Americans are taking it seriously.
• 49:28
  Speaker C: They are.
• 49:29
  Speaker D: They are a wee bit. Well, because it's a novelty at the moment, but they are. They are loving the movie and they're taking the music.
• 49:35
  Speaker C: I think they are, because of the film, like that, because it's, you know, kind of done so well. But, yeah, I. I just think a lot of Americans see hip hop as uniquely American and they will not accept hip hop from other places. And I think that's the case for other genres that come from other parts of the world. I get that. But that doesn't mean we can't start our own scene and sorrow.
• 49:58
  Speaker D: There's been a couple of Americans, you know, just anecdotally, who actually love. They maybe got a link to Scotland and they love the Scottish accent and they agree with me in the sense that, for me, I love hip hop and it's got to be authentic. So I'm. I would rather listen to a guy doing it in a Scottish accent. Well, being honest, than someone putting on a fake American accent. I just kind of. I kind of got the Fake American accent thing, a little bit less strict on it when it comes to indie music or guitar music. But I just want to be. I want to be listening to songwriter and believe who. I want to believe the story. I want to believe people when they sing or they rap. And that usually involves not being overly Scottish or anything, just wanted to be close to their speaking voice for the most part.
• 50:42
  Speaker B: It's just an authenticity, isn't it? I didn't even realise I was singing in a Scottish accent till it was pointed out to me. And then someone was like, tinka and June are never gonna make it because of the accent you sing in. And my mum was like, carla, you've got a lovely South Lanarkshire accent. And I was like, well, I'm from Karlik, I can't it down. But no, it's a weird thing. I don't know what Scottishness is in any sort of cultural output, because I think, you know, as a songwriter, my influences come from lots of different sources. Depends on what songwriters and bands I'm listening to in my record collection, what authors, what books I'm reading, what poetry I'm reading, what art I'm taking in. But I think for Scottish music it's exciting because I think we're in the position where Certainly in the 20 years I've been making music, there's been more blend between genres, which I find really exciting, and some great subcultures coming up, like the kind of noise scene and the crossover between art and visual elements and. But even little things like, you know, when I started out, this sort of indie TWI pop scene was really frowned down upon and to see that becoming a bit more accepted and successes from that, like the Spook School and Just Jones and certainly at the level that I'm operating at and with my peers and community, I'm seeing so many women and non binary artists come through and it's so exciting and there's so much support there for them that wasn't there when I started.
• 52:27
  Speaker C: I totally agree with you, Carla. And on that note, on Scottishness, I think there's so many various versions of Scottishness that it's impossible to pigeonhole it into one thing, which is a good thing that we have so many different versions of it. But yeah, for me, some of the most exciting stuff coming out of Scotland is women and non binary people making music. And in genres like pop and hip hop and R and B, genres that might not typically be linked to Scotland, but we are creating our own scene here and we're doing great things and those people deserve support. And I think something that we in Scotland are very good at, like you said, this kind of merging of styles and genres. And I think the most exciting stuff happening is in that kind of cross pollination of styles. That's where we're seeing the most innovation and that's where the kind of excitement is.
• 53:12
  Speaker A: You mentioned it. You both mentioned the sort of up and coming acts, young women and coming through. Can you name one, One act I should see in Glasgow. Currently I'm doing. I'm about telling everybody about. I don't know if you've seen the Niche Family. Have you seen the Niche Family? Yes, but I saw a country.
• 53:30
  Speaker D: Yeah.
• 53:31
  Speaker B: Cinema Are there at Celtic Connections recently.
• 53:35
  Speaker D: They would have been.
• 53:36
  Speaker A: There's two. Two guitarists and a singer. She's like Canadian, Native American. He's Scottish couple and another Scottish guy. And they just sound so authentic, like American country, gospel type of thing. They're absolutely wonderful. I've never seen anything. Great harmonies, Absolutely beautiful harmonies. The banjo alongside the guitar and all that. Great three part harmonies and totally American sound and all that. But I didn't realize the guy was Scottish until I spoke to him after one of his shows and I thought, oh, I expect him to say, yeah, I thought he was going to be American. I think she is. She's Canadian, I think. Absolutely wonderful.
• 54:13
  Speaker D: That's one of the guys, Harry and the Hendersons or something like that.
• 54:16
  Speaker A: Surely I remember them.
• 54:17
  Speaker D: Yeah, I think so.
• 54:19
  Speaker A: So that's my one tip. Niche family.
• 54:21
  Speaker C: Anyone else I really like? I think she's based in Edinburgh but Dara do, who plays the harp and sings and does cool electronic stuff and I just, I love her sound in the moment. How do you spell that, Dara? D, A, R, A and then DU is D U, B H And she's just so good and I've booked her a couple times for shows and I think she's great live. But I think somebody that's great live and on record and can collaborate with lots of different genres, that's very, very cool.
• 54:51
  Speaker A: Who's your up and coming?
• 54:53
  Speaker B: Obviously I'm gonna say the chords. Yeah, absolutely. Do you know what they are? They're really great.
• 54:59
  Speaker A: I've not seen them yet but everything about them makes me want to see them.
• 55:03
  Speaker B: Ones to watch. Ones to watch. No, I think over the last few years I would like to see more recognition for the band Post Cold Prom Queen. I think they're so exciting and what they do live and they just. I don't think they're like any other Band in Scotland, I think they've just been quite overlooked in terms of what they're willing to do, incorporating, like, weird science and music and stuff like that.
• 55:26
  Speaker D: And the concepts behind them.
• 55:27
  Speaker B: Oh, you see that opera space thing they did? Yeah. It was so cool, you know, and. But the chords are great. But I think my absolute one to watch diamond in the Scottish music scene right now. And brilliant person, Susan Baer.
• 55:41
  Speaker C: Oh, I love Susan Baer as well.
• 55:43
  Speaker B: Susan Baer, yeah. On the Lost Map Records crew. Just incredible musician, incredible songwriter, outstanding producer, and every work that Suze does, it's almost like you're like, whoa, I wasn't expecting that. And just really, really exciting.
• 55:59
  Speaker C: You mentioned them already, Carla, but I think the Henhus Collective, on the whole, everyone that's involved in Henhus are doing such good things and they're just such incredible musicians, songwriters, producers, and they deserve so much attention.
• 56:12
  Speaker A: I was really moved when I saw that Henhus had a small grant award that was named after her in honor of Baldino. So I thought it was a great thing because Baldino is one of those, like all other young artists saying, sometimes it's just a simple thing. Getting a couple of quid to get into, getting a rehearsal room or record a short demo or something like that, that is the barriers you can't get over. Three questions, one for each of you. The three questions are, number one, what was the important Scottish song or song by a Scottish artist when you were a kid growing up? Number two, what was the important Scottish song in your young adult years, a teenager going out clubbing, etc. And number three, what would be the national anthem in a newly independent Scotland? Carla, what was your one as a kid growing up? What was the song, the important song to you?
• 57:24
  Speaker B: I think the song that changed my life was hearing Son of a Gun by the Vaselines, which I heard before I heard the Nirvana version. I used to have this stereo above my bed, so it'd be like, you'd lie on the bed with your headphones plugged in and it was like, that was heaven. You were just listening to it coming from heaven. And the first time I heard, when Francis came in, in the chorus, I couldn't believe it because she sounded like me. So I immediately, like, put the tape on, put the CD onto a tape, and was straight into school the next day. Like, debbie, take one of my headphones. We're sitting in the common room listening to it. And Debbie went on to be the drummer in Teen Canteen. But, yeah, it just blew my mind that this had come from up the road from Carluke, where I was.
• 58:07
  Speaker A: Vassalungs are quite an amazing story. The Vassalins, the whole Nirvana thing as well. There's probably more people listening to him in Seattle than in Carluke. Arusa, what was your song of your party years?
• 58:23
  Speaker C: The young adult, so it's a hard one. I listened to a lot of electronic music when I was at uni and going out regularly. But the one person that always kind of comes to mind is Sophie. Sophie's Bip. That song. It just makes me think of being at uni and going out with my pals.
• 58:44
  Speaker A: If you came on right now, you would just start to get changed and get ready.
• 58:47
  Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely.
• 58:48
  Speaker A: Start drinking and putting makeup on her.
• 58:50
  Speaker C: The thing about Sophie is that there's so many of her songs, like, it's okay to cry. Just makes me weep every time I hear it. But then there's lemonade and there's fip and it just makes me want to go and have a party.
• 59:02
  Speaker A: Great choice, Mark. It's an independent Scotland. Like it or lump it, you're getting it. Are you going to be. You're in charge. You're the Culture minister. What's going to be our new national anthem that symbolizes our nation and the aspirations of our people?
• 59:20
  Speaker D: I would actually want to. If I was. I would actually take some time to think about it and I'd like, I don't know, maybe make a graph or something.
• 59:28
  Speaker A: You've got four sayings.
• 59:29
  Speaker D: Yeah, no, I'm just off the top of my head. I'm going to go with a clearance by Doss, which is the choruses. It's shite being Scottish, so I'm going to go with that just now. And, yeah, I think that would get people going because we could celebrate our Scottishness by singing the shite.
• 59:48
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 59:48
  Speaker D: I think that would probably bring everyone together. It'd be good before a football game. It'd be good to sing at Hugmanay. I think it would work.
• 59:53
  Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that would appeal to Scottish people.
• 59:56
  Speaker D: Yeah.
• 59:57
  Speaker A: Sit down. You're shy. I'm shy. We're all shy kind of thing, maybe. Are we shite? Are we shite? What was our conclusion at the end of Scottish music culture?
• 1:00:05
  Speaker C: Proud to be shite.
• 1:00:08
  Speaker A: That's it. When we have our anthem, unless we create any alternative national anthems, we should be more shy.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker D: So we've got to put ourselves in the back because we should be more shy. Considering, as we discussed, there's not really an industry, there's not really proper funding. There's not really. There's so many things wrong with Glasgow and we in the wider Scotland, we do well.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker A: But when you think of other nations, the same population, Scotland, you're talking Finland and Croatia, Libya. Who's your favorite Libyan electronic. Who's your favorite Croatian, like blues artists? I don't know. There is. Surely we punch above our weight when it comes to small nations because I don't know any Croatian arts or Libyan arts.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker D: I know a couple of finishers.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker A: Do you? But.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker D: I know that. I know the. Yeah, well, there'll be. There will be. I think we do well because obviously we're privileged in the fact that we're a mostly English speaking nation.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker A: So of course you've got American England. Yeah.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker D: So instead of using that advantage. That's why I like the ones that deliberately speak more Scots rather than leaning into the English thing and making it even less likely to be successful.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker A: And any alternative national anthems, is there any new bids? No.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker C: Oh, I think that's a pretty good one, to be honest.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker B: Oh, yeah, no, it's a good one. I'm just saying. Is there something a bit more hopeful?
• 1:01:36
  Speaker C: Yeah. Oh, so something like, I don't know, like young fathers, in my view. I really like that song.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker A: Good choice. Yeah.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker C: Yeah, that could be a good one. Or something instrumental like Hudson Mohawk.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker A: There. I mean, there is, of course all of those are wrong answers because there is a right. A correct answer to this question. And as the Culture Minister, the new Scottish national anthem will be. Feels Like I'm In Love by Kelly Marie. And that's. And that's already set in stone. Sorry. As long as I'm leading the revolution, that is. So we've. We're at the end now. I think we've discussed all we can about Scottish music. Hopefully it'll inspire some more discussions back home. Hopefully when this goes out and gets broadcast, people will have lots to say about it and be very angry about it and get engaged in conversations because I think we're good at angry conversations. We're good at getting to subjects that way. So just want to thank again my guest, Carla J. Easton, Arusa Qureshi, and our producer, Mark McGee. And thank to Richard and Glad Radio for the use of the studio. And thank you all for listening. This has been beyond the cringe. Is that you, Daniel? Are you before me? Call that radio.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker D: You call that radio.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker A: Way. And get a bus back down.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker B: Here we are.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker A: Push it back.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker D: Hello?
• 1:03:18
  Speaker A: Yes, this is Dog Video.