Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Si Hart & Frazer Gregory about their choice of Genesis of the Daleks (6/6)

Transcript

Talks to Si Hart & Frazer Gregory about their choice of Genesis of the Daleks (6/6) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:33
  I'm so drunk. Welcome back to a hamster with a
• 0:41
  blunt. Penknife the Doctor Who
• 0:43
  commentary podcast. What are you waiting for sighs?
• 0:47
  I just touch these two strands together and the podcasters
• 0:51
  release have. I that Brides to release the
• 0:55
  hamster. You can't doubt it.
• 0:57
  Well I do you see some things could be better without the
• 1:00
  hamster. Many future worlds will become
• 1:02
  allies just because of their fear of the smart, it isn't like
• 1:06
  that or the final responsibility is mine.
• 1:09
  A mine alone, you see if someone who knew the future pointed out
• 1:14
  to Jordi to you. And told you that, that Geordie
• 1:17
  would say the most utterly, ridiculous things, things that
• 1:20
  would, irritate millions of lives.
• 1:23
  Could you then release that idiot?
• 1:25
  Look, we're talking about the hamster, the most entertaining,
• 1:29
  and welcoming podcast ever invented.
• 1:32
  You must release it. You must complete your mission
• 1:35
  for the ham Farm. Do I have the right?
• 1:38
  Simply touch one against the other and that's it.
• 1:42
  The hamster is out, hundreds of millions of people, thousands of
• 1:47
  generations could live without smut and in laughter and learn
• 1:51
  to love the words. Stop it.
• 1:54
  Then why wait, if it was seasoned be of maximum power?
• 1:57
  You were eventually releasing. You wouldn't even hesitate.
• 2:01
  But if I release a whole six-part commentary and I'd
• 2:05
  become like them, I'd be more prolific than Joe for the
• 2:10
  suffering, they'll be if you don't do it.
• 2:15
  Are you are say it's over. Joe has a great of our turns is
• 2:20
  demanded at Twitter pool but it's a formality he's agreed to
• 2:23
  no more smut no more brigadiers or and then you can do Terminus,
• 2:29
  I'll Buckle that get down everybody.
• 2:40
  Good actors. But you did anyone else?
• 2:45
  Well, if we're doing, should all be going and listening to the
• 2:48
  plants Cara audios where Simon heart has starring roles and
• 2:51
  several of them as well as writing producing script.
• 2:53
  Edit in general been fantastic, all the way through.
• 2:57
  Yeah you say that Pat wait till Brendan turns up The script in
• 3:02
  there was by mr. Frazier Gregory.
• 3:04
  By the way, you absolute genius. Mmm.
• 3:09
  So gentlemen, that is the big question.
• 3:12
  Are you a genius? Do we have the right?
• 3:17
  To Walt. Fight for our right to party.
• 3:27
  Do we have the right to finish this commentary?
• 3:29
  I think we do well. I think we probably ought to
• 3:32
  we've got this far. I want to fucking get a bit
• 3:34
  tonight. All right.
• 3:37
  Well, it will, someone count is in, I don't get straight to the
• 3:42
  point. That's not what we got a lot.
• 3:47
  So in 5 4, 3 2 1. Let's go done.
• 3:55
  Done, done done. Done done.
• 3:57
  Done some wrong story. It's this isn't it dun dun dun
• 4:02
  dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun think it actually goes dude.
• 4:09
  Doodoo doodoo, doodoo all. I am perfectly convinced that
• 4:13
  some of Dolly sisters, most fabulously bombastic music is in
• 4:17
  this episode Well it's is one of his very best scores as I said,
• 4:24
  right at the beginning, he is keeping this story going and he
• 4:31
  is I think this is one of the most perfect Doctor Who
• 4:34
  incidental music schools. There is he is just on again,
• 4:40
  it's that Alchemy of everything coming together from the music.
• 4:44
  So you've got this this music here, which is really selling
• 4:47
  this music as much as Thomas. And it's adding to the drama of
• 4:52
  this this scene here. So it feels Jeopardy and it's
• 4:59
  really brilliant. The music when the dollies are
• 5:02
  coming down the corridor, the end like to kill the stack his
• 5:05
  it's like unrelenting date like real it rising and Rising, huh?
• 5:11
  It's like a horror movie music. It's yes.
• 5:15
  So what you're going to say? I've got a question for you to
• 5:17
  them. Okay this scene.
• 5:20
  No the doctor question is morality about destroying the
• 5:24
  Daleks and Savage in trying to talk them into it. is this
• 5:29
  better than the doctor and Davos discussing the virus in the
• 5:35
  vale, always that the better scene of the two I think this is
• 5:43
  this one, I think, I don't know if it's because it's it's the
• 5:50
  Doctor's Choice. It's because that and that's
• 5:53
  the, this is the Crux of the story that dr.
• 5:56
  Davros exchange isn't, this is the doctor's decision that he's
• 6:00
  got to make and I think that's what makes this scene and I
• 6:04
  think Elizabeth sladen. Is you see in Masters does
• 6:08
  nothing here. It's the doctor and Error.
• 6:11
  I think this song defines for the beach.
• 6:15
  We get him, doesn't she? Yes.
• 6:17
  He is terrific here. And just the two of them and
• 6:20
  then you can see again. I think that maybe is what
• 6:23
  influences, and they think we'll hang on.
• 6:26
  We've got something here. This is for two of them.
• 6:29
  This is what Barry Letts wanted. He said to like, he Castle, as
• 6:34
  were sleeping. He cast Tom Baker.
• 6:36
  And basically, he's the one that is responsible for this story
• 6:38
  being written as well. When he said, go back and write
• 6:41
  again and I think this just goes to show how Savvy was with
• 6:46
  casting his regulars because they are really in it.
• 6:48
  Yeah, we do. It's very, very rare at this
• 6:52
  point in the series, to be this introspective of the doctor, and
• 6:57
  to question what's going on in his head and his role in the
• 7:00
  story? Normally he's the hero and and
• 7:03
  he just goes through it, you know, it's different to
• 7:06
  perfectly where perp we would have been so Resolute, so I
• 7:10
  think. And so sure of himself that he
• 7:14
  wouldn't have stopped to have that conversation.
• 7:17
  Jim in the planet, in the dark. Planet spiders.
• 7:20
  Sorry we're in the very last episode and it's taught he's
• 7:24
  talking about his Greed for knowledge and all of that and
• 7:27
  that felt so refreshing because there hasn't really been any
• 7:30
  great exploration pertwee's character had that for out that
• 7:33
  run and this is more of the same but this is just better
• 7:38
  scripted. I think better actives as well,
• 7:42
  I think, you know, account with going back to solve for, you
• 7:48
  know, you have that interest. Moment of the doctor I've sent
• 7:50
  Harry into them and having Sarah into the Holocaust and just
• 7:54
  being crushed by that. Another example of us being
• 7:57
  really, you know, in perspective of the doctor, you know, I think
• 8:02
  if that have been Pertwee again, going back to the predecessor,
• 8:06
  you know, that would have been a very sort of like how do you
• 8:09
  think I feel? I said I'm into that, it would
• 8:11
  been played very differently, wouldn't it?
• 8:13
  But I think, you know this that scene Works purely because of
• 8:18
  Tom Baker. Bigger, it looks agonized by
• 8:21
  that decision and just holding those wires.
• 8:24
  He's still in front of his. He fuckin Eyes by how to play
• 8:28
  the scene as well. Yeah.
• 8:30
  You know behind the scenes, you know, he was really chewed up
• 8:33
  about how he was going to play that in.
• 8:36
  Should I play it this way that way?
• 8:38
  And, you know, he really killed himself up and that a lot of
• 8:42
  that comes across the screen and direction as well as got a plié
• 8:46
  pop because it is just two wires and Tom Baker's face.
• 8:49
  And it's not exciting. It's such a complex, a complex
• 8:52
  thing. He's talking about such a simple
• 8:55
  video and I often think dramas at his best when you boil it
• 8:58
  down, really simply like that. Yeah, I kids can understand it
• 9:03
  spells out for the kids. Yeah, that's one wire against
• 9:07
  the other and the Daleks are finished.
• 9:08
  But also like in the new series, they made a conscious choice to
• 9:12
  from the start to examine the doctors role in these
• 9:16
  Adventures. This just wasn't done in this.
• 9:19
  The classics are not know, and obviously spoiled this stands
• 9:22
  out, isn't it? I think it stands out as well
• 9:24
  because you know, we can forget how the dark Tom because doctor
• 9:31
  was and we've had a scene where we've turned off that loss is
• 9:34
  life support. And, you know, Season 13 comes
• 9:38
  on long where he's not a lot left, right?
• 9:40
  And Center. Yeah, season 14 of comes along,
• 9:42
  where he turns into ramble for an episode of of Deadly
• 9:45
  Assassin. Your he's got a special with
• 9:47
  Hinchcliffe, you know? Got a very sort of seen a
• 9:52
  residence where he just rolls over the dead body and goes,
• 9:55
  well, it's a bit upset by his brother, you know.
• 9:58
  Like it is dark as Capaldi in your Dalek.
• 10:02
  Absolutely so so what what do you know?
• 10:10
  What's also interesting about the whole speech is I'd never
• 10:13
  considered until that point that some things could be better with
• 10:18
  the Daleks and That's such an interesting idea that's where I
• 10:21
  was going. It's, you know, because this is
• 10:23
  a rare moment actually of saying the Fourth Doctor's morality,
• 10:27
  play it out. So specifically your look at em
• 10:31
  if you flash photo nightmare of Eden where have trust trust risk
• 10:36
  tryst racist being taken away, you know, and the doctor is just
• 10:42
  you know, looking modern camera, come away, you know condemning
• 10:47
  them with words like that. you know, there's a sense of it
• 10:50
  there but we don't really get much more of a sense of his
• 10:53
  morality other than this scene here now, other than sometimes
• 10:59
  telling Lila off for using her knife.
• 11:01
  Yeah, no, don't kill people. Let's see this script originally
• 11:04
  was just going to have him. What just touch them together
• 11:07
  and say. Well that's done at what was no.
• 11:09
  No I don't think he would ever have done it now.
• 11:11
  I think again that is that it was a quick translation moment
• 11:16
  of. Yeah.
• 11:17
  It was just like a oh you know I can't do this.
• 11:21
  Rather than an actual discussion, you know, in the
• 11:24
  consideration of what was at stake, although like, is it a
• 11:29
  bit of a cop-out that and someone comes in and goes, well,
• 11:32
  you know, we've defeated davros. So, of course, it worried, who
• 11:35
  isn't it? It's always.
• 11:37
  And again, it's another sort of chance where again, they think
• 11:46
  they're going to get the better of davros and stop this without
• 11:49
  having to make the big decision that but events are conspiring
• 11:54
  against the doctor to bring him back to this decision.
• 11:58
  And he does have to go back and destroy the incubation room and
• 12:01
  he does do it. He goes back as a neat with
• 12:04
  every intention of doing it and then the darling, the Daleks
• 12:07
  goes over the wire so the Dalek effectively does He would do so
• 12:12
  that I don't understand and it doesn't wipe them out that does
• 12:14
  it? No.
• 12:15
  Well, no. So is that, is that a problem?
• 12:21
  It's if it essentially, you know, we come in at the story
• 12:26
  and we think the the will give you a very simple mission
• 12:30
  statement at the start and episode 1.
• 12:32
  It's, you know, stop the Daleks go back in time.
• 12:35
  Either, stop them developing find a weakness or, you know,
• 12:40
  changing the development. So that they are Nice aggressive
• 12:44
  creatures yet. Not like pure evil sort of
• 12:47
  thing. Okay?
• 12:48
  So we know that coming out of this story, either the doctor
• 12:53
  succeeds and you know, the most, you know, fundamentally popular
• 12:59
  race, and the whole of Doctor Who ceases to be and we don't
• 13:03
  have Daleks anymore or the status quo is going to be
• 13:06
  maintained at the end of episode 6.
• 13:09
  What he does. He delays it doesn't he rather
• 13:11
  than saw We get worse, what'd we get to the end?
• 13:15
  So what we're going to do because if we maintain the
• 13:19
  status quo or the doctor hasn't won but the doctor needs to win
• 13:21
  because the doctor is the hero to start the who he needs to win
• 13:26
  at the end of every story. So how do we, you know, balance
• 13:29
  that Knowing that we can have Daleks in the future, who are
• 13:33
  evil, but still having the doctor win.
• 13:35
  So, we come up with a bit of a compromising you saying.
• 13:38
  Yeah, it's a fair compromise and I think there's some sections of
• 13:43
  fun and we've looked a lot into this and said, well essentially,
• 13:47
  you know, the doctor does a bit more than just any of them, like
• 13:51
  a thousand years. If you compare the Daleks
• 13:54
  before, this story who are capable of taking over planet
• 13:58
  Earth and almost done. And out its core, who are, you
• 14:03
  know, amassing your 10,000 miniature Daleks in an ice
• 14:07
  Planet, Inspiron, that sort of thing to what would then present
• 14:11
  it with, in terms of, you know, Daleks who can't beat them a
• 14:17
  balance because the fight was stand still.
• 14:18
  And need of Rawson be all a lot more and then start fighting
• 14:22
  each other. There's like garlic Civil Wars
• 14:24
  and that sort of jazz. There's a school of thought of
• 14:28
  the doctors actually succeeded a lot more than just setting them
• 14:32
  back. He's actually you know, affected
• 14:35
  them, by whatever is done, sort of like Butterfly Effects always
• 14:38
  had made them a lot more rubbish than the were beforehand.
• 14:46
  And it's interesting. Isn't it?
• 14:47
  Because if this was the new series that would form the basis
• 14:51
  of a long story arc, that how the doctor had and they would go
• 14:55
  and investigate? That happens but here because
• 14:59
  Philip Hinchcliffe isn't as done a Dalek story.
• 15:01
  He's not interested in doing another one him and Bob Holmes
• 15:04
  and not interested in the Daleks.
• 15:06
  So interesting time. It is a story all that comes
• 15:11
  from this isn't the dark. Yeah that's right.
• 15:13
  Yeah. It's almost yea it becomes dad
• 15:15
  forces story arc because he's so popular they've got to bring him
• 15:20
  back but they don't investigate what happens to the Dalek
• 15:24
  timeline and I think if you were doing that In 2022.
• 15:28
  I just had to look what year it was.
• 15:30
  I'm so excited and I'm very into my argument there.
• 15:34
  That would that would form season's worth of stories
• 15:37
  because it would have such an effect.
• 15:39
  It would affect have ripples out through the whole Doctor Who
• 15:42
  timeline it would change. So no, to be fair masturbating
• 15:46
  to see, is its is a fact. The rusty Davis says that this
• 15:51
  is the start of the so this does actually kick start.
• 15:56
  Awk that has far-reaching consequences.
• 15:58
  Yes, we interesting. So we're in a safe in that
• 16:05
  process has laboratory which is too hard for that for us to
• 16:08
  read. Yes.
• 16:10
  And I've got another question for you, two guys, okay?
• 16:12
  Because I want to come back to the our and out this.
• 16:16
  That's all right. Oh yeah.
• 16:19
  Donna gun. But I'm coming back to Harry
• 16:21
  Sullivan and we've discussed a little bit about how he and his
• 16:24
  contribution of a story are like how real of hurry?
• 16:28
  Yeah great. Yeah.
• 16:29
  Me too. You know, it's sad that they
• 16:32
  thought. After this that what you think
• 16:35
  there was so much more they could have done with three of
• 16:38
  them. I think it'd be really good for
• 16:40
  the sheets, just be the action and it is, I don't think it's
• 16:45
  Lots in this story. He's not just comic relief.
• 16:48
  I know he's all. He has proper interesting
• 16:51
  conversations with the doctor. They're paid off a law, it does.
• 16:56
  So question really, is you and Marta.
• 16:58
  Would you say that you're not as greatest contribution to the
• 17:01
  Doctor Who was the I love how we Sullivan, or is it the work that
• 17:05
  he did with the target range? I've punched books.
• 17:14
  Yeah, I think he was a terrific writer.
• 17:16
  I think he's books really captured the imagination of a
• 17:21
  generation because he were, we always knew if you were picking
• 17:24
  up one of his books, it was going to be gruesome and
• 17:27
  wonderful. He wasn't afraid to put where
• 17:29
  were did it? He wasn't afraid to deviate,
• 17:33
  from what was on screen so terroristic.
• 17:35
  Said he really wanted to Put on paper, what you saw on screen.
• 17:38
  So it's very faithful. Whereas here Marcelo was happy
• 17:41
  to do list Laden says that he found her up one day and said
• 17:45
  our Garcinia where you all were you doing my?
• 17:47
  Shall I write you up a bit? And she goes, yeah, go for it,
• 17:51
  you know, but he also his prose, I think is probably the best
• 17:56
  Pros. Pre the McCoy novels, the we
• 18:00
  got. Yeah, it's probably really well
• 18:01
  for lights and Malcolm whole probably and sort of complexity
• 18:06
  levels. Just like in terms of like
• 18:08
  setting a scene here, your he really went like the five senses
• 18:12
  and put you in a scene in a really effective way can I see
• 18:16
  novelize this? Can I swear for a second?
• 18:20
  Yes because oh my God. How fucking great are these
• 18:23
  fucking Garlic's in episode 6 of Genesis of the Daleks?
• 18:27
  Here we go. We're gonna get some great
• 18:30
  exterminations, nice. And I don't think we've even
• 18:34
  seen them at their best when they're lit.
• 18:35
  Coming down those corridors in a mirror and they just look
• 18:38
  extraordinary. I'll go go gleaming night as I.
• 18:43
  Yeah, that's the only other time he almost Smiles.
• 18:48
  You know what? Oh my God, phrase.
• 18:49
  I've got a reading on, I do. Yeah.
• 18:52
  Well, so diverse said to Carnival Carnival?
• 18:56
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 18:57
  Like oh, you know, I Get your heart going.
• 18:59
  You're going to turn your heart against me Kaaba.
• 19:01
  Nearly got away then but no, I doubt grabbed hold of him and
• 19:05
  threw it back to growing back. No one else is going to have
• 19:08
  that roses affection. You're gonna die.
• 19:13
  You guys go back to in mortar and he's like, very like
• 19:17
  Elizabeth sladen. In some ways in that if he's not
• 19:21
  got anything to do in the scene, he's still doing something in
• 19:25
  the background. He is listening, he is watching
• 19:28
  them. He is paying attention to what's
• 19:30
  going on and that elevates. What he's doing.
• 19:34
  He could just be the spare part but he's not, he's still engaged
• 19:39
  with what's happening around him and his reactions sell as much
• 19:43
  as as what Elisabeth sladen and Tom Baker, talking about what
• 19:48
  you've got with. The three of them is you've got
• 19:50
  three characters that work beautifully when they're
• 19:52
  together. The chemistry, is it incredible?
• 19:55
  But like, you Sarah, and this will the Gantry scenes.
• 19:59
  Re in Santana experiment where he's wondering about trying to
• 20:01
  solve things and the doctor they can all absolutely hold the
• 20:05
  screen on their own as well. Yes.
• 20:07
  And they can be paid off in different ways.
• 20:09
  So the doctor, the doctor and Harry The Doctor and Sarah,
• 20:12
  Sarah, and Harry. Yeah.
• 20:14
  All work are Sarah and combination.
• 20:17
  That's the death of rebellion. The Cybermen, isn't it?
• 20:19
  Yeah, when they're in town En Vogue, are you stop going on
• 20:22
  about the gold hurry while we just sit here glittering.
• 20:27
  Okay, great. Oh, here we go.
• 20:30
  So the bombs gonna go off and they all going to be holding
• 20:34
  down there and we get about four versions for this scene where
• 20:38
  she helped off from plunging down the Detonator.
• 20:43
  Oh yeah, here he is. He's dressed up again.
• 20:45
  Yeah. And that was that cut that coat
• 20:48
  and hat was left in in the college City it didn't even come
• 20:52
  down to the bunker. I think it was quite dirty as
• 20:55
  well. You know, they've had it washed
• 20:56
  for him. You know.
• 20:57
  Mmm. There's a lingerie on skaro.
• 21:02
  He hasn't done anything really? I seen the last couple of
• 21:05
  episodes. No.
• 21:08
  But then the focus has all been davros, hmm.
• 21:13
  So let's hope. Now that Ross, let he thinks
• 21:16
  that, you know, he's in command of his own tiny.
• 21:20
  It's six people, whatever it is Little Empire and they hastened.
• 21:24
  It's six now because he's killed all the rest of the yes, So the
• 21:28
  bit and it's just going on best ever sting in the Tails comes up
• 21:32
  now and it's superb, is there, you know, dislike it's for the
• 21:42
  other and exactly he's programmed in.
• 21:47
  So then the one thing That is going to lead to his downfall,
• 21:53
  and it's beautiful. It's Poetic Justice.
• 21:56
  There's a slide is what he goes. I've been to understanding of
• 22:03
  the watch. It is not in my vocabulary bank
• 22:07
  because the said, you know, like Peter Capaldi taught them should
• 22:11
  have said moose. All right.
• 22:15
  Such a wonderful, wonderful. Same aisle.
• 22:17
  Here we go. You guys have to talk about.
• 22:20
  I want to watch this and okay, I'm gonna give some props to the
• 22:25
  other actor in this scene that we haven't really mentioned is
• 22:29
  Roy Skelton who does brilliant with a voice Pollock voices in
• 22:35
  this store and he's my favorite, Dalek actor.
• 22:37
  I know he becomes a bit more Zippy later on.
• 22:40
  It's not my CPU. That's really unfair to be
• 22:42
  honest. I'm not sure.
• 22:43
  That's absolutely right. I think he's absolutely superb.
• 22:47
  He's so good. Here he does the big, Darla
• 22:49
  Krantz at the Of the story which is, is great.
• 22:53
  He knows exactly how to pitch this.
• 22:55
  You know, I think you can, you can see the difference in
• 22:59
  Maloney's direction from planet a Daleks.
• 23:01
  So this just in the two runs the Daleks have at the end because
• 23:04
  in Planet of the Daleks sort of goes where you will never to be
• 23:07
  defeated we will be back and in this it's like way.
• 23:12
  Well go on we do you we just had 92 Steph there.
• 23:17
  Do you like the facts that everyone else gets a A really
• 23:20
  big over-the-top garlic death and neither doesn't scream.
• 23:26
  Well that's a character thing. I think Miles makes the most of
• 23:30
  it, but what I like about it is just it's such an
• 23:34
  inconsequential death. Yes you do it.
• 23:37
  Yeah. Where is Garmin Steph and
• 23:39
  Bronson. Stefa played huge said yes.
• 23:41
  Earning points. It's just like now you got to
• 23:43
  know that off and he's apt is in all of this.
• 23:45
  Not it's like Tasha Yar and you know, I think it's not gonna
• 23:49
  happen because After always had to be the last man it has to
• 23:52
  happen. But you know what you would
• 23:54
  expect is sort of like night at the threw himself in front of
• 23:58
  Dave, Ross grandstanding moment. Yeah, that's what you kind of
• 24:03
  expect but it's just such a casual great villain downfall.
• 24:07
  Yeah. It's just not telling after all
• 24:09
  is just go press that button and then zap you know and you throw
• 24:14
  it and it makes it like I said that the slide down the brother,
• 24:17
  the pillar perfect, isn't it? He's talking about is its class
• 24:24
  but I think you know what God given that he's gone to such
• 24:26
  extremes to have the Daleks created.
• 24:29
  In this, the fact that he makes a decision to try and press that
• 24:33
  button in like desperation at the end.
• 24:35
  That is the most interesting moment in this whole story that
• 24:39
  he's like, oh shit no I have gone too far.
• 24:43
  Yeah or is it just know? This is the only way I'm going
• 24:46
  to survive. It's the only way I'm gonna
• 24:48
  survive but I think it's more like well, you look Shit.
• 24:51
  Come on. Then we'll show you.
• 24:52
  Yeah, sure you are. Who's the daddy?
• 24:55
  Exactly, isn't it? Yeah.
• 24:57
  Sorry my authority. It's just so great that the
• 25:00
  Daleks are just taking control. And this is what you've been
• 25:03
  waiting since like pair of the Daleks isn't it?
• 25:06
  The audience has been waiting for this because they know it's
• 25:08
  coming. You know, it's just side.
• 25:10
  It makes you. Wait.
• 25:12
  This is Doctor Who's Blake. This is yes.
• 25:15
  As bold as dark and as Sin. Huh, as Blake.
• 25:21
  We obey no one. We are thus which is exactly
• 25:26
  what he's been telling them. They are all the way through.
• 25:29
  That's what he's designed them to be in program.
• 25:31
  Yeah billion. And finally dating is you don't
• 25:35
  see davros exterminated. You just see the screen, go
• 25:39
  white. You don't see when he's not, is
• 25:41
  he? No, and it's his disability that
• 25:45
  because literally he had enough time to press that button.
• 25:48
  Yeah. If he could just push push his
• 25:49
  arm. I couldn't get that.
• 25:51
  Yeah, he couldn't get there in time and a great big close-up of
• 25:55
  a Dalek. What more do you want?
• 25:58
  I thought I owned every okay, well, I've got a question for
• 26:02
  you on the back of that I've been sitting on this one way of
• 26:06
  this moment because That is the most spectacular ends that
• 26:13
  davros ever could have had. Yeah.
• 26:15
  Oh, should have Ross have been a One-Shot character?
• 26:20
  Yes, it's really difficult. It's a no because okay.
• 26:23
  Well once again, you know, I yeah he would have been a great
• 26:32
  one shop character but He wouldn't have, I don't know if
• 26:36
  he'd have become the great Doctor Who villain if he hadn't
• 26:43
  come back. We will just be without Vicki.
• 26:47
  Oh yeah, I don't know. Nothing, crazy race.
• 26:52
  There's so many great moments but there's never going to be a
• 26:54
  moment as good as that. No.
• 26:58
  No, I think his story is told they're really and it's just
• 27:02
  then extended artificially. What is he?
• 27:06
  He's just, he's just a villain making more Daleks.
• 27:08
  They trying to take over the universe and it's essentially a
• 27:12
  rewrite of the character. I mean, for me, there's there's
• 27:16
  a law of diminishing returns that sets in, from this point
• 27:19
  on, I mean, for all that Terry Malloy died in June bleach and
• 27:22
  David goodis, it are fantastic as davros and the are not as
• 27:26
  good as Make-a-Wish. Her The cut has not written as
• 27:29
  well as he is in this story. You know, he's goes for
• 27:35
  full-blown megalomaniac in Destiny of the Daleks.
• 27:40
  It's, you know, if we put Destiny of the Daleks on right
• 27:42
  now, you would Be Jarred with the code that is presented.
• 27:47
  Yeah, it was essentially supposed to be exactly the same.
• 27:50
  It was literally just been exterminated but as just Frozen
• 27:53
  himself in time and then you know it's very jarring, it's not
• 27:58
  as strong, as I thought it would happen.
• 27:59
  We watch this, but it is, you know, different.
• 28:04
  What also happens is, then that you now have.
• 28:06
  Every Dalek story is a more of a dove, Raw Story, a Dalek one
• 28:10
  until then and that was always the the criticism through the
• 28:14
  Through the late 70's and 80's. So you might, you might say,
• 28:18
  well one one diver story, okay. Think obviously, the new series
• 28:22
  has done a lot better than just having those, you know keeping
• 28:25
  Davos for a few special moments but even then as soon as you get
• 28:29
  divorced it's not a Dalek story anymore to divert our story.
• 28:32
  The Daleks just become window dressing and you know, we have
• 28:38
  other monsters which are like that.
• 28:40
  You know, the yeti is the tool of the great intelligence.
• 28:44
  Let's put those stories are told a lot better and we have the
• 28:48
  yetis used a lot more effectively than what we do
• 28:51
  Daleks when there's that Ross involved.
• 28:54
  So for me if we just had davros as this one shot villain, you
• 28:59
  know? Well that's that's how the
• 29:01
  Daleks were created and that's what happened in the end.
• 29:03
  It turned on their creator and you know, he schadenfreude
• 29:10
  whatever. What I'm not quite the word I'm
• 29:13
  looking for but closer. Enough.
• 29:15
  Then that would have been perfect.
• 29:16
  And then we could have told more Dalek stories.
• 29:19
  And without death, Ross, I think he probably would be.
• 29:21
  Could he wouldn't be bettered, you know, he would be considered
• 29:26
  the ultimate Doctor Who villain. Well, you know, the interesting
• 29:29
  thing is I've been is that when ever Devil comes back, maybe not
• 29:36
  so much in Destiny, but in Resurrection and in say the
• 29:41
  stolen Earth and Journey's End The davros is the only villain
• 29:46
  that can really get under the doctors skin and really get.
• 29:52
  I really visceral reaction out the docs so much so that Peter
• 29:56
  Davison as Doctor goes to kill him because he's so I mean
• 30:01
  that's in the hands of arras award, all right?
• 30:05
  But it's a huge moment for that doctor and then you get the same
• 30:10
  in Journey's End. Don't you wear davros is the
• 30:13
  only person who could Say, you've turned your companions
• 30:16
  into an army. Look what you've done.
• 30:18
  You're no different to me and it's those character moments
• 30:22
  that davros brings I get up in tasting.
• 30:25
  I'm really great because Dalek Darla could be so incredibly but
• 30:30
  now yeah, that you've suddenly got a mouthpiece that is
• 30:33
  potentially very interesting. I just think the they kind of,
• 30:40
  they go down the direction of making him sort of a ranting
• 30:43
  villain. Yeah.
• 30:44
  Off the time and that's not interesting.
• 30:48
  You say that, but he's so superbly very remembrance of the
• 30:52
  topics. I'm not only I think that the
• 30:55
  okay, that's the trade-off. That isn't it?
• 30:57
  Because if we don't have divorce coming back or will you need
• 31:01
  some of it sparingly then we don't don't have rice pudding
• 31:04
  and we don't have don't have headed interesting stuff a
• 31:08
  revelation. Yeah, well he's Charming.
• 31:12
  Oh my God I believe that's What they call consumer resistance.
• 31:17
  Exactly. So yeah, it's a really difficult
• 31:21
  one, isn't it? You know, boys got a hard task
• 31:27
  ahead on the back of six episodes only.
• 31:32
  Well, I think we should do nine. Okay, I'm gonna do it in the
• 31:36
  order that we're in sigh, me, Fraser.
• 31:40
  All right. So no pressure, but your first.
• 31:44
  Okay, I am going to go for the ending.
• 31:48
  We didn't discuss the actual ending, but I think the doctors
• 31:53
  little speech is as important as their forces end and the devil
• 31:58
  and the doctor coming out of this with optimism after being
• 32:02
  in such an awful horrible world where there isn't any optimism,
• 32:09
  is something good. I am going to say the direction
• 32:15
  of David Maloney which is a bit obvious but like what an
• 32:20
  unenviable task he had and he was given like the brief to make
• 32:27
  it more muscular than before and he just fulfill that
• 32:32
  brilliantly. But this this is Unforgettable
• 32:34
  television. This isn't just Unforgettable
• 32:36
  Doctor. Who this is fantastic
• 32:37
  television. So David Miller, he's my choice.
• 32:42
  In a move that will surprise. Absolutely no one.
• 32:44
  I'm going to say neither assessment, honestly, honestly.
• 32:50
  It's like I said, yeah, the character of now you don't just,
• 32:56
  you know, what it does, where he comes from, where he's heads at,
• 32:59
  you know, everything just fascinated about and obviously,
• 33:03
  you know, the performance of Peter Meyers as well is just
• 33:05
  superb of just, you know, that clip delivery, you know, like
• 33:09
  you said, the the fact that you we barely smiles and less people
• 33:13
  are dying or he's current someone and, you know, he's just
• 33:16
  such a Vicious capable villain who, you know, if that was just
• 33:24
  him, you may talk about them a lot more than davros.
• 33:27
  But, you know, it works. This beautiful relationship with
• 33:31
  Davos gets overshadowed a little bit and put a years, they're
• 33:34
  just pulling strings and you know, being everything that you
• 33:38
  need them to be and it's played beautifully, you all think about
• 33:43
  inch men you know, you will over Regan in ambassadors, are deaf
• 33:46
  as well. You like a morally ambiguous
• 33:50
  henchmen, who was long as this Moon that NATO's in quite swab,
• 33:54
  is he? But I don't really know on
• 33:57
  imagining on a dinner date. So I definitely Simpson Dudley
• 34:01
  Simpson is a he's at his Peak here.
• 34:06
  I think I'm there are other schools that he would do.
• 34:09
  That are hummable and beautiful. But I'm not sure he ever quite
• 34:16
  betters, what he does here. Yeah, this is perfect.
• 34:20
  Absolutely perfect incidental. Music for Doctor Who it's
• 34:24
  thrilling, it keeps the tension up, it ramps up the action, it
• 34:29
  ramps up scenes, that might be lesser.
• 34:32
  So even the scene with the clams and Harry getting his foot in,
• 34:35
  it has a really dramatic music. He is at the peak of his powers
• 34:40
  and it's phenomenal, and it's criminal that it doesn't exist.
• 34:45
  Yeah, I love to listen to. In its entirety.
• 34:49
  And yes, there we go. Dudley Simpson deserves.
• 34:53
  Yeah. Deserves more love than he ever
• 34:55
  gets. All I will say that.
• 34:57
  That is what I say, whenever we discuss study Simpson on podcast
• 35:01
  which is got a gesture, give it on YouTube.
• 35:05
  As he hasn't done, he has to scrape and straight that
• 35:09
  transcribed quite a bit of Genesis of the Daleks.
• 35:12
  He did, the whole garlic cream up again, is there's whole
• 35:16
  minutes and minutes early. All the Dalek action scenes, so
• 35:20
  that instant Joe was saying, well, the stuff I love.
• 35:22
  It's really as Relentless as the as the action on the screen.
• 35:28
  So there's a little bit in there for my manager, as well.
• 35:31
  There is, he gets his own yet order them off.
• 35:33
  Dumb. Dumb.
• 35:34
  Dumb. Dumb, dumb dumb.
• 35:38
  Yeah, I'm gonna say the Daleks themselves which are used very
• 35:44
  sparingly and are more effective for it.
• 35:48
  This story had to get the Daleks right because it's a very
• 35:52
  important story. It's a Genesis of the Daleks and
• 35:56
  I just think that shot incredibly well, they're written
• 36:00
  incredibly well, and like come the last episode, they're out in
• 36:05
  force and it's what you want. And you've been waiting a long
• 36:07
  time for it. I just think I just think
• 36:09
  they're very genuinely scariness in a way that I don't usually
• 36:14
  find the dogs scary. Terry Nation.
• 36:23
  Hacking away at life. Actually, Terry.
• 36:27
  That's not really good enough. Can you do something different
• 36:29
  for us? Okay, here we go.
• 36:31
  Boom. Genesis of the Daleks, you know,
• 36:35
  it's it's really good example of how good a writer he can be when
• 36:40
  you want them to be. You know, the the story, the
• 36:44
  creation of davros, the whole backstory of the thals and the
• 36:50
  collards, and, you know, what happens?
• 36:51
  And how damn hospital is them in the, you know, the tragedy isn't
• 36:54
  it? And it's just a fantastic story.
• 36:58
  Really well told and really well, written in a b c.
• 37:02
  It does. Get enough credit for what you
• 37:04
  can actually do, or has done your even when he is hacking it,
• 37:07
  you know, when you appreciate that, he's a very good hack.
• 37:12
  You know, again I'll say it. Look at Blake seven you know
• 37:15
  what entire series by himself and hacked it out.
• 37:19
  But did it really really well with a lot of style with a lot
• 37:22
  of variety in here. We just absolutely proves, you
• 37:25
  know, when when he's on his game when you push them, when you
• 37:29
  want them to be, he's a fantastic writer.
• 37:33
  Okay, well, I think it's obvious really, isn't it?
• 37:36
  That's Ross, even though because it's not just Michael Wisher,
• 37:42
  it's everything. It's the design choice is
• 37:46
  perfect. They got the base of the Dalek
• 37:49
  with a wizened old man. At the top, the most by John
• 37:54
  friedlander is just absolutely incredible piece of design.
• 37:59
  It's just so perfect. It's the fact that kids Can draw
• 38:04
  half a Dalek with a man stuck in the top.
• 38:07
  It's a to whatever degree. Is the fact that he's only got
• 38:11
  one arm and Michael Wisher, plays it brilliantly, and
• 38:13
  Michael, we should create Staff Ross and he makes him still and
• 38:18
  he makes him quiet at the right times, but he can also do the
• 38:21
  ranting and it's the switch between the two and every scene
• 38:26
  with davros is electrifying because you want to see what
• 38:30
  he's going to do next, and he wants see him.
• 38:33
  Sat there tapping his fingers because, you know, even though
• 38:36
  you can't read the face in The Mask, you know, that there's
• 38:41
  something ticking inside him the whole time and that he's
• 38:45
  scheming, and he's cleverer than everyone else on this whole
• 38:48
  world other than the doctor and he's finally met someone who can
• 38:52
  match him and it's fascinating. He's as you've heard, we have
• 38:58
  spent sort of five episodes of this talking about defrost.
• 39:03
  It all comes back to that character.
• 39:06
  It's a phenomenal creation. It's one of the best things in
• 39:11
  Doctor Who to ever come out of Doctor Who and it's come out of
• 39:13
  Doctor Who's archenemies again. It's just yeah, it's our.
• 39:19
  Yeah, I could go on for hours as I have already because it it's
• 39:23
  just magic and everything coming together at the right time.
• 39:26
  All the right decisions have been made and it works.
• 39:31
  Why do they go? I'll beat that.
• 39:36
  I want to try and face your mind slightly contradicts phrases
• 39:40
  unfortunately, and that's robot homes.
• 39:42
  And I am perfectly convinced that 70 80 % of the dialogue of
• 39:48
  this story has been Rewritten, polished and sharpened up by
• 39:52
  Robert Holmes. The last two stories that Terry
• 39:54
  Nation turned out were planet of the Daleks and death to the
• 39:58
  Daleks. And then I write one bit
• 39:59
  quotable dialogue in our veloso, Worries.
• 40:02
  And now you're telling me he's worked on death to the Daleks.
• 40:05
  Well, he's letting him get away with it there.
• 40:08
  And now, he's in fish and now, he's literally banging out like,
• 40:12
  Poetic smart effortlessly memorable died.
• 40:16
  I just don't buy it. I think there's a lot of
• 40:18
  termination in this. Don't get me wrong, but I think
• 40:21
  Robert Holmes is like the master Craftsmen of Doctor Who dialogue
• 40:25
  and this is some of the best style of inducting ever.
• 40:29
  And I don't think that's confrontation.
• 40:30
  So I think Robert Holmes has given this a top to toe polish.
• 40:35
  I'm not saying rewrite but polish and the dialogue
• 40:39
  throughout is exceptionally good.
• 40:44
  The only thing I can see is, you know, somewhere in this podcast.
• 40:47
  There are 10,000 Daleks and like.
• 40:52
  So, what I'm going to pick is how we sort of an insanity in
• 40:57
  Smith, and for this, you know, the two companions.
• 41:00
  I think, you know, we've discussed the dynamic and how
• 41:03
  the work, you know, the first few episodes.
• 41:08
  I don't think we've really probably thought enough about
• 41:10
  listed in. And how magnificent she is in
• 41:14
  everything that she does, but specially this yeer and Moore
• 41:17
  again, doesn't really get much to do this Harry, but what he
• 41:21
  does is is exceptionally good as well.
• 41:24
  But I just love these two as the companions.
• 41:28
  I love Sarah point. And, you know, being that the
• 41:34
  doctor sort of conscience is that were you look at that scene
• 41:38
  at the start of episode six, where, you know, do I have the
• 41:40
  right and she's the one that's saying well, yes.
• 41:42
  Blow the bloody doors, open it, you know, she's pushing them and
• 41:47
  pushing and pushing them how he's there.
• 41:48
  Is the sort of Dependable wonder, you know, the extra pair
• 41:53
  of hands as it were. But they're just they're just
• 41:55
  something about them that just works.
• 41:58
  And you know I miss Harry when he's not there love you know the
• 42:01
  doctor and Sarah Jean but I miss hurry when he's not around to
• 42:06
  even spending the comedy stuff of which probably might not have
• 42:09
  been comedy at the time but it certainly did.
• 42:11
  And now with the Old girl, and stiff upper lip in, and that
• 42:15
  sort of stuff. Yes, I just love this Tardis
• 42:20
  team together. Well, boys, we embarked on a
• 42:25
  hell of a story there. I hope.
• 42:27
  We've done it justice. Done, it justice.
• 42:31
  Where the hell are we team at into next card?
• 42:35
  If nobody can possibly scar again.
• 42:45
  I'm so, I'm going to put Power out to Twitter naming, the seeds
• 42:51
  of death Boomtown. Now The Magician's Apprentice
• 42:54
  and the way we do something else but I'm going to put it out
• 43:00
  there. Thank you very much for, you
• 43:03
  know, taking on this all-conquering classic.
• 43:07
  I couldn't have done it. Without the two of you and I
• 43:10
  couldn't have done it without the two of you either know I
• 43:12
  could well I could have done it but it could have done it
• 43:18
  before. I said, I could have done it
• 43:25
  without you but it wouldn't have been as good.
• 43:30
  I'm sure it would have been.