Latest / Rugby Direct / Rugby Direct Episode 257: Beaten by the Boks or Beaten by Themselves?

Transcript

Rugby Direct Episode 257: Beaten by the Boks or Beaten by Themselves? · Rugby Direct

• 0:09
  Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from Newstalk ZB. Follow this
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: Strike down the middle. Drop it.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Down and score.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: There's your bonus point, drop it down.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Welcome into Rugby Direct.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: Powered by AXS Solutions, elevating you and your business to
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: a higher level. Elliot Smith with me, Liam Napier as always,
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: our final podcast from South Africa, leaving behind Josie Johannesburg.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: And the All Blacks leaving behind a series that they
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: can no longer win, Liam. 2-1 down in the series.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: A lot of attention put on Game 3, obviously, and
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: the All Blacks losing 29-24. It was seen as a
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: series within the series, and for many, the ultimate game.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: But ultimately, to use that word again, they weren't good enough.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: What were your top-line thoughts on that All Blacks defeat?
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: Well, I do just want to acknowledge the occasion, first
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: and foremost, Elliot, because I think it's easy in the
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: wake of a loss. You know, had the All Blacks won,
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: I think we'd be sitting here saying that was a classic,
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: an amazing occasion.
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: What was it?
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: Close to 90,000 people in Soweto. A black hole in
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: terms of internet, which posed a lot of challenges from
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: a working perspective. But it really was an amazing atmosphere. Like,
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: those fans were cheering for... Every tackle, every kick, they
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: were chanting scrum, scrum, which is no surprise. And it
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: was a cauldron, and I thought it was a brilliant match.
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: And for probably 50-odd minutes, it really was counterpunch and
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: counterpunch as it has been throughout the series to heavyweights.
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: But look, the All Blacks are gutted, and they will
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: be extremely disappointed because they won that first match. They
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: upset the box on home soil at Alice Park, and
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: then they've dropped the next two. And the whole quest,
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: I think, of this series was to come to South
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: Africa and try and emulate that 1996 team. Now, that
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: was such a lofty goal, wasn't it, in the context
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: of the Sawblacks team, the fact that Dave Rennie's only
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: been in charge for two and a half months. But
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: that was certainly their goal. They had the 96 team
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: in before they left. They wanted to absorb the lessons.
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: They wanted to emulate their feats. and that's now dashed. Yes,
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: there's another game in Baltimore, and the All Blacks can
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: square the series, but the objective of this tour cannot
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: be achieved now.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: No, it can't. The best they can leave with is
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: a draw, and that will be ultimately frustrating for this
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: All Blacks team, because, as you say, they were 1-0
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: up after the first test. You know, Rusty Rasmussen made
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: a lot of noise around the third test being the
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: most pivotal of the series. Well, he was proven right.
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: He said that before the first match even. and the
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: Springboks were just too good and too clinical. They were
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: surgical-like in the way they dissected and dismantled the All Blacks,
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: I felt. And, look, the All Blacks were right in
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: this game. After the opening half hour, you know, they were, what,
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: 12-5 up. Adi Sarvia had been playing a storming game
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: both tries to that point, goes off injured, and... The
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: All Blacks didn't really look the same after that. They
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: had some moments after that, but they sort of lost
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: a little bit, obviously with Sarvia going off, both in
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: terms of leadership and punch at the line. But they
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: just weren't good enough around the key facets of the game.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: And even before Adi Sarvia went off, they mismanaged, I thought,
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: the 10-minute period when Sascha Feinberg and Gombazulu was yellow-carded.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: They should have had another try with Tupou Vai. They conceded, what,
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: four penalties in a row at that point?
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, four straight penalties. So Sasha gets yellow carded. The
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: All Blacks score four straight penalties. And that just literally
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: piggybacked the box downfield to a line-out which they got
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: called for obstruction. But then Damien Delende, not long after,
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: scoots around Leroy Carter and the box score. And they
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: were held scoreless for 21 minutes. So the All Blacks
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: had to start well, and they did. Mm-hmm. But they
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: didn't capitalise on that period, and that was one of
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: many pivotal moments.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you can list them off, can't you?
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: Because the other one is the scrum, which again, they've
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: talked a lot about working through this. And look, the
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: Springboks did get penalised once for walking around, so that
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: was proven correct. But ultimately, they scrum for a penalty
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: try and just absolutely... dismantled the All Blacks pack in
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: that one. They had that rolling more try in the
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: second spell from around the 22, outside the 22. The
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: All Blacks, I think the story of the series maybe
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: for them is just not being guilty of taking the
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: opportunities that they've had. They've scored, what, four tries in
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: each of the games, but on the winning side of
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: the ledger once.
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: It was 12 line breaks to five. So again, they
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: created so much opportunity They got to the edges. They
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: found a lot of space on the edges. I thought
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: in the first half they were largely dominant. Asafa Amor,
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: massive punch. He delivered exactly what you wanted. The line-out
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: functioned brilliantly. Peter Lakai was prominent as well. So I
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: think those two changes really worked. But they didn't capitalise
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: on that momentum, on their dominance there. And then I
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: felt going into halftime, 12 all, The All Blacks hadn't
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: made the most of their chances and then just gradually
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: the box imposed their will, imposed their power game and
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: feasted on the All Blacks' mistakes. So when we talk
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: issues for the All Blacks, it was their scrum, as
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: you say, and that was always going to be a
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: focal battleground, particularly with Nika there. He was never going
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: to let collapses go. Some of his rulings at times
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: around the breakdown are perplexing. I don't think he determined
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: the result. He's just not my favourite official. The high
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: ball at times was another issue. And then just a
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: couple of key moments, weren't there? Will Jordan kicking dead.
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: That was pretty pivotal. And discipline. That really allowed the
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: box to get their tails up in the second half.
• 6:52
  Speaker 3: And look, credit to the Springboks. I thought their defence...
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: some of their one-on-one spot tackles. They got a lot
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: of energy and momentum from just massive hits. And then
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: the All Blacks, particularly at the breakdown, just some really
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: basic technical silly penalties that allowed the Bucs to get downfield,
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: to go to their rolling mall, like you say, to
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: take points and squeeze the All Blacks, suffocate them, and
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: they just swarmed. They were very dominant in that final period.
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: And I thought the final margin of defeat probably didn't
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: reflect the Springboks' dominance in the second half?
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, 29-24, and the All Blacks score after the
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: siren to close that gap, but the All Blacks were
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: 17-12 up, and it's easy to forget that because they
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: completely fell apart after scoring that go-ahead drive through Will Jordan.
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: It was a moment of magic, too. Will Jordan, to
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: his credit, great little chip in behind, Leroy Carter regather,
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: pop pass, and I wouldn't say it was against the
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: run of play, but... It was so short-lived. They were
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: ahead for, what, two minutes?
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: Two minutes. They bungled the kick-off restart, which has been
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: an ongoing issue for them in this series, is that
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: they score, and then South Africa is able to score
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: soon after because they can't get the kick-off receipt right.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: Jesse Creel scoring and bumping off, throwing away. Leroy Carter,
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: who went high and couldn't make the tackle. And then
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: the Springboks level, then go ahead with the conversion, and...
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: It's been a series, I guess, of momentum swings. The
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: first test was when the All Blacks snatched the momentum
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: late and didn't give it up. Second test, South Africa
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: had it from the get-go. And the third test, it
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: was sort of the pendulum was swinging and looking for
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: somewhere to stop, and the All Blacks thought they had
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: it at 17-12 up. Yeah, it was against the run
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: of play, but if you score that, if you score again,
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: consolidate your advantage, you know, with a penalty goal or
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: just spending time in South African territory, but they weren't
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: able to do that. So... They've been guilty of making
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: their own bed, I guess, in many ways with some
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: of the mistakes that they've made that are ones that
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: they can eliminate from the game. I'm talking kick-off receipt.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, the scrub is a bigger issue, but kick-off receipt,
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: breakdown work, the Fabian Holland clean-out when he got pinged,
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: other things around the game. These are technical issues that
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: the All Blacks should be better at.
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think around the breakdown, it's such a
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: fine line between being assertive and aggressive and.
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: Being needless and headless and they need to eliminate those penalties.
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: So some penalties, um, are part of the game. You know,
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: you're going to get penalized at the scrum potentially, or, uh,
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: you push the envelope in some regard, but it's the
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: ones where you clean someone out well past the ball. Yeah.
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: That's just unnecessary coach killer moments. And, um, Unfortunately for
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: Dave Rennie, that's been pretty prevalent throughout this series. Luke
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: Jacobson's been pinged for it, Fabian Holland, maybe a couple
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: of others, and they do prove really costly. And you
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: just can't give a team like the Springboks a leg up.
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: When you score points, you have to be so clinical
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: in taking your restart and putting it out on the
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: halfway line and resetting and going again. Because if you
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: invite them in, if you allow them into your 22 invariably,
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: the stats tell us they're going to convert. They didn't
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: do that at Alice Park, but that was a one-off.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's like vampires. You invite them in. You
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: see the movie Sinners. You invite them in. They'll fucking...
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: tear the place apart, and that's exactly what they did.
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: They'll bleed you dry.
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and they do. They're very, very good at that.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: Once they get the ability to make an incision inside
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: the 22, they're very, very hard to stop from there.
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: I think the attack game plan, I think, for the
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: All Blacks is, by and large, working. It's the defensive
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: systems and the set piece that needs some real work,
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: and these aren't changes that can be made in seven days,
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: but they're going to have to find some way to
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: stop the rock.
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I think the spotlight has to be on
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: Jason Ryan right now. And maybe that's a wee bit
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: unfair because the Bucks are the best scrummaging team in
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: the world and everyone has issues with them. And it'll
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: be interesting to see how the All Blacks go when
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: they go up north against other teams. But the All
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: Blacks scrum right now hasn't been able to find the
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: fixes it needs.
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: Well, Terrell Lomax has looked completely off his game in
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: the series. You know, year or so ago, and he's
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: had a hell of a lot of injuries over the
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: last 12 months, but he was one of the premier
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: tight-head props in the world. I don't know that you
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: could say that at the moment, given the way that
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: All Black's scrum has been folded. They've clearly missed Ethan DeGroote,
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: I think, over the last couple of games. George Bauer's
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: sort of done a good job at plugging a hole,
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: but I don't know that he's a starting All Black's
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: loose-head prop in 2026, and They've also missed Tamati Williams,
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: who's obviously on the sidelines for the entire season. But
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: I think there's some interesting questions around the props going
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: forward for the All Blacks. And look, we don't know
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: who's going to Baltimore. We know who's not going, or
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: three players that aren't going to Baltimore. But I do
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: wonder whether someone like a Solomau may be worth a
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: look at scrum time in this test next week.
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, small sample size, isn't it, that we've seen from him.
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: But he's a massive unit, 140 kgs, and they need
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: to find some fixes there. And we've seen on this
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: tour people like Pasolio Tosi. Unfortunately for him, be exposed
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: by the Springbok style of scrummaging and then wanting to
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: keep the ball in and scrum for penalties. And look,
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: this has been great exposure for a number of players,
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: but some of them have been found out. And there
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: is a real spotlight there. on the All Blacks scrum
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: and it will really hurt them because this is an
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: area that they pride themselves on forever and a day
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: and it's not a case of just being an attacking
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: team that can move the ball and play at pace
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: and look good. The All Blacks take a lot of
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: pride in their set piece and their scrum and they've
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: been dominated so it's one area of the game they
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: really need to look at. One player I think It's
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: flown under the radar and the Obelix have actually missed.
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: And I think he really suits Rene's style of game
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: as Scott Barrett. And there were whispers earlier this year
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: that he might retire. I'm now hearing that he's going
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: to be back in training with Taranaki soon.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: So he could play the NPC?
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: Not sure about if he'll play the NPC, but I
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: think he'll be back in training.
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: Great. Which is.
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: Great news. And... I just think, I don't know if
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: he comes back this year or next, but not only
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: from a work rate perspective around the field, he does
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: a lot of that dirty work at the breakdown. He's
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: a very good line-out technician, not the tallest lot going around,
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: but I think it's often underestimated how much grunt someone
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: like a Barrett or Tupelo to provide that sort of
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: build gives a scrum. And I think Scott Barrett would
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: be extremely valuable in the context of that. I had
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: concerns going into that game about George Bauer, about Sam Derry.
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: I thought Sam Derry was very good around the field
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: and the line-out worked well. I don't know, but I
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: don't think he'd be a massive scrummaging unit. So all
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: these things need to be looked at, don't they? Because
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: you can get away with it against Italy, against a
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: second-string French team, But when you're up against the best
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: in the world in their backyard and you've got 90,000
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: people saying scrum, scrum, that's when you find out what
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: it's all about.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and the weaknesses have been brutally exposed, I think,
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: over the last couple of weeks especially, but they were
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: also on the ropes in the first test as well,
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: which they came out on the right side of. And,
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: you know, in some ways they've been able to withstand
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: a lot of those punches because they've finished... Each of
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: the games, the loss within seven points, even in Cape
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: Town where they didn't have their best game last night,
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: where they were rattled and then beaten in the last
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: 20 minutes, they still finished within seven. Not saying it's
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: a consolation by any stretch of the imagination, but the
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: way South Africa has played would have blown out a
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: lot of other teams. Do you take that as a
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: positive or is it very much, you know, you come
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: here to win? I do.
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: I look at that team and one thing that has
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: been very evident throughout the whole series is their tenacity,
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: their heart, their spirit. At Alice Park, they were dead
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: and buried. Literally rose from the dead in that final
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: 25 minutes with the scrum on their own line and
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: to surge over the top. One of the great victories
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: in All Blacks history. Cape Town, I thought they were
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: very much second best and they could have snatched a draw.
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: late but it was quite telling I thought in this
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: game you know so much was made of the All
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: Blacks record at altitude and the expectation for a bit
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: of rope-a-dope yeah you know the theory was start well
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: finish strong come over the top of the box and
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: you know I'm thinking in that first half okay they've
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: given them even 12 all at halftime I'm like that
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: they've given themselves a red hot go here because what
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: we've seen in this test series the All Blacks should
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: come home stronger but it was the box this time
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: and the All Blacks went to their bench earlier. They
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: had to in some regards because of the injuries, but
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: their front row replacements came on just after halftime and
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: they probably didn't get the same punch from their bench
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: and the box got the momentum and they certainly finished stronger.
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: Prior to that final try, I think it was 17-5
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: in the second half. so they really flipped that script.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they did, yeah. All the talk about the All
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: Blacks finishing strongly was almost like South Africa took that
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: as a challenge and thought, hey, actually, you know, we
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: can boss this final quarter. And I think the way
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: that the momentum swung so quickly after that Jordan tried
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: back to South Africa, they thought, OK, we've got 20
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: minutes here. We can close out the game. We're back
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: in front, and we can sort this. And they actually,
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: you know, steamrolled the All Blacks in the final 20
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: minutes in front of a buoyant crowd.
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but just back to your point, I guess, about
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: Are you a glass half full or half empty? I
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: think about coming into the series, and I think we
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: discussed the minimum expectation for coming over here was one win.
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: And then the All Blacks get that in the first game,
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: and that sort of changes the complexion of your expectations,
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: doesn't it? So sitting here now, I know there's one
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: match in Baltimore, but if we just take the South
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: African leg, the three tests here, How do you assess
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: where the All Blacks are at? Are you a glass
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: half full or half empty on the context of what
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: we've seen?
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: I'd probably lean towards half full. Look, there are some
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: big issues that have been brutally exposed that the All
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: Blacks must work on if they want to be the
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: world's best team, if they want to win the World
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: Cup next year. But you're right. Ahead of the series,
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: one win in South Africa was sort of the minimum requirement.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: And I think after the first match where they won
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: despite not playing their best rugby for an hour.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: Sort of thought, OK, well, if the All Blacks can
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: play their best rugby and implement that game plan, then
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: surely they can win one of the next two. Well,
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: it didn't happen, and probably went a little bit backwards
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: over the last couple of test matches, and South Africa learned,
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: and I think adjusted much better than the All Blacks
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: did to some of those key factors. Obviously, the set
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: piece they knew was always going to be a strength
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: of South Africa's, but I think South Africa... after that
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: loss in game one, tidied themselves up a little bit.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: They didn't turn over nearly as much ball in the
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: next two test matches and didn't allow the All Blacks
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: to implement the game plan that they've talked about so
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: much and bring that fatigue in. So, yeah, I'd probably
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: lean towards a glass half full 2-1. Look, they've lost
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: the ability to win this series. They can still draw
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: it next week if you consider the Baltimore part of
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: the series, which Rusty Rasmus clearly does, because he said
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: last night at the media conference, but Yeah, I'll probably
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: lean towards glass half full. What do you say?
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so. And I thought Rusty, to his credit,
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: made quite a good point. He's been in charge of
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: that team since 2018. Rennie's been in charge for two
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: and a half months.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: And there's a lot of evolution yet in that All
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: Black team. A year is not a great time until,
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: a huge amount of time until the World Cup, but
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: I think we'll see a lot of, I hope we'll
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: see a lot of selection evolution. He would have The
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: All Blacks will learn so much from this tour, not
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: just about their starting test squad, but all the players
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: that they brought over and behind. You'll probably never until, well,
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: maybe never in Rene's tenure again have that many players
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: in a touring squad yep um so there's massive positives
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: to take out of that the attack has improved out
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: of sight but yeah there's some big vulnerabilities there um
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: against the spring box that I don't know if they
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: can solve certainly overnight um And I like what Rennie's
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: done from a selection point of view as well. He's
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: made some big calls, and I think a lot of
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: them have worked. When you look at Asafa Amua dropping
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: a test Centurion and Cody Taylor, how many other coaches
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: would have done that? So I think there's a lot
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: of promise there. But, yeah, there's still a few question marks.
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: I think Ruben Love's a great talent, but this wasn't
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: his best test. I'm not sure you... You certainly don't
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: need to bin him off, but he missed seven points
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: off the tee. You've got to kick that penalty. It
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: was 43 metres out. It's challenging conditions. It's blustery, yes,
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: but it was pretty much bang in front. So there's
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: all those little moments. I thought he was a wee
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: bit skittish early. So.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: Still not sure on the yellow card. I didn't see
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: a replay of that, whether he was offside or not.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: I actually, in real time, thought he timed it pretty well. But, again,
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: didn't see a replay of it, so I can't talk
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: for certain. But regardless... He did get himself yellow carded.
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that was a telling moment, wasn't it? Visa, I
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: think it was, made the break and some desperate, heroic
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: defence denied Le Boc on the line and then they
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: get the yellow card and they're hanging on for the
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: first half and the early stages of the second. So, yeah, look,
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: I think there's a lot to come from this All
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: Black team, but it is probably just a reminder of
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: why the Bocs have been so dominant and But the
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: All Blacks, they're not that far away either. They're pretty
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: confident within themselves. But, yeah, there's some vulnerabilities there. Just
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: to that power game, when you look at them all,
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: the scrum, and they're not surprises, are they? That's South
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: Africa's DNA, the high ball. Yeah. I'm not too sure
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: where those fixes come from at this point.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: No, and look, they've got seven days, including a flight,
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: which they're currently on, to try and apply some fixes
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: to get a draw out of this series. If we
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: look ahead to that game next week, Liam, in Baltimore,
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: with the caveat that by the time this podcast goes up,
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: then we might well know who's actually been on that plane.
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: We obviously know that Luke Jacobson, Artie Savia, Quinn Tapia
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: are not, but do you see wholesale changes next week?
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: What changes would you look at?
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: Well, just should we touch on Ardy as well?
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: Probably gone for the year.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: I'd say so. Look, it didn't look good when he
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: came up. And it's a shame he was having a,
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: as we touched on earlier, storming 30 minutes and on
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: track for one of those sort of games that Ardy
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: can have where he takes the team on his shoulders.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: We saw it from one. We've seen it for the Hurricanes.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: We've seen it for the All Blacks previously. And I
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: don't know if it was the ultimate turning point in
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: the game, but it was certainly a big one. And
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: he's a talismanic leader. So to lose him for potentially
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: the rest of the year, depending on what the scans
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: and everything say, I mean, again, it didn't look good,
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: I think is an absolutely massive blow.
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I thought Adi was quiet, very quiet in July
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: when he came back, and probably not surprising given he's
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: played 18 months on the rugby treadmill, but I thought
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: that break must have done him good because he grew
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: throughout the series, got better and better, and he was
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: inspirational at the weekend before leaving and it will be
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: a massive blow because I think he's been the right
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: choice as skipper and he's been a big factor in
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: uniting that team and building what Rennie's done so I
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: think Luke Jacobson would be next in line for the
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: captaincy but not too sure how bad his elbow is
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: but a massive blow and Quintipai MCL you'd think He
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: probably should be back later in the year. But who
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: captains the team this weekend? I guess you've got guys
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: like Cody Taylor, Geordie Barrett.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah. I mean, I'd like to see a suffer more,
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: get another start. So then, for me, that rules out
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: Cody Taylor from being the captain this week. Now, Dave Rennie,
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure what his thinking is, but he may
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: want to get that experience back into the team, given
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: the loss of a couple of the leaders. It may
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: be not necessarily a... Tactical choice, but more of an
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: experienced choice to bring Cody Taylor back in, so he
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: may do that. But personally, I'd start Asafa Omura again.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: So that probably leaves Geordie Barrett to start as captain
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: this week. You know, there are some up-and-coming leaders, I think,
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: in this all-black side. You know, Sam Darius, captain of
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: the Blues, Patrick Tui-Palotu, maybe you look at him, but
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: he hasn't had the best of tours by his own
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: standards yet. So far, so by process of elimination, and
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: not always a big fan of having a back as
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: a skipper, but I think Geordie Barrett probably fits the mold.
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the only question would be around his workload, wouldn't it?
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: He's had a massive tour, three starts, three big shifts,
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: so probably depends where his body's at, but it might
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: be a case of needs must and then give him
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: a breather. I agree, yeah. In terms of other changes,
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: you'd think Ethan DeGroote and Josh Lord would come back
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: into the mix. Maybe De Groot can have an impact
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: at scrum time. And then I think we need to
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: make a change in midfield. So I would be looking
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: at a Rico Awani at this point. I think there's
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: more upside in him than starting Leonard Brown, but they
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: will probably go Leonard Brown.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd go Rico.
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: I'd like to see Amani Narawa come into the mix
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: on the wing. I've got big question marks about that
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: defensive system that left Leroy Carter out. marking Damien Delende
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: and Jesse Creel, two much bigger men, got pushed off
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: on both occasions, and it's not a fair fight.
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: Well, Leo Ricciardo was the defensive pick. That was what
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: Dave Rooney.
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: And he is a very good defender, but there's so
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: much space in that situation, and it just looked way
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: too easy for Damien Delende. He just palmed him off, and.
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: It's a vulnerability for the All Blacks because you've got
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: Leroy Carter defending there and Damian McKenzie outside him, two
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: very small men. So Jamie Wall asked Dave Rennie about
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: that at the press conference and he said, no, it's
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: a defensive structure. The plan is to try and get
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: them to throw a long ball over the top or
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: to make a spot tackle. Well, it didn't work. And
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: I just don't think you can have such a small
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: man marking a big midfielder. So look, Josh Morby paid
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: a big price, didn't he, for one missed tackle. So
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: it'll be intriguing to see how that plays out this week.
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: But I do like what Ngarawa brings in terms of
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: his skill set. He's got a bit of size, a
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: bit of strength. He's got a kicking game. Can play
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: fullback and wing. So he's one guy I'd like to
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: see come back into the mix. Fihi, potentially. You can't
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: make mass changes, but they will be forced to make
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: a couple. The drums will probably be beating for guys
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: like Ethan Blackadder and maybe a Tava Tava Nawa off
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: the bench.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think Ethan Blackadder may well have to
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: come into the... Depends on the makeup of how they
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: start their loose forward trio. I thought Lakai was good yesterday.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: So do you start him again at blindside? Or do
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: you move him to number eight with Adi out, or
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: he can play seven? You know, six isn't his usual position.
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: No, he starts. Look, I thought Wallace was good as well,
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: Wallace Atiti. So maybe he starts at eight, and Lakai could,
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: you could leave him at six potentially with Blackadder at seven.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: It's not the biggest loose forward trio going around, but.
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: your options are limited when you lose two loose forwards.
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then we've already lost Anton Cegna, who I
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: think could have had a big role in the series,
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: but not to be, obviously, as well. As you say,
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: Josh Lord likely to come back into the mix. Who
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: starts at 9 and 10?
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: I think it's Rich Moanga time. I think, I always
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: thought Baltimore would be the juncture that you could make
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: some changes and potentially bring him back into the mix.
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: I like the fact the All Blacks have stuck with
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: that continuity and given Ruben Love every chance. But Richie
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: Moronga's in the squad for a reason, and you need
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: to find out where he's at. You're not going to
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: do that against the Lions.
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: I thought.
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: It was a makeshift team. He had some moments, a
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: great cover tackle and one little burst, but it wasn't
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: vintage Moronga. But he needs a chance at some point,
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: and I think this is a good chance to give
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: him a crack at 10.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd probably go with him at 10 as well.
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: Roy Gard's had, obviously, that injury earlier in the series,
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: earlier in the tour. Look, Ruttema hasn't been fit for
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: the last few weeks. Whether they look to spell Roy Gard,
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure. I would get him to get out again. Yeah,
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: I think he's hugely influential. I'd be starting him again.
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: And the All Blacks do get a break after this.
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: You can't be changing the whole team. It's still a
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: test match.
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: It's still a test match, and they now have a
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: must-win scenario because they're steering down the barrel of three
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: losses in a row after a tenure that had started
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: so promisingly for Dave Rennie. So they're in must-win territory, really,
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: this week, aren't they?
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and you also, I feel like you need to,
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: there's poles apart between Roy Gard and the rest I
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: think we'll see Dylan Pledger eventually come back into the
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: mix and probably by the World Cup I would expect
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: it all going well him to prove his fitness and
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: he'd be my guy off the bench at the World
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: Cup but Roy Gard gives you I thought he was
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: great at the weekend he took the ball away from
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: the ruck to avoid being caught and there was one
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: telling kick, a massive boot in behind. I thought he
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: kicked well aerially as well, so he gives you your
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: best link between backs and forwards, and also Mwanga the
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: best chance of performing, so I'd like to see him retained.
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it'll be interesting to see what Dave Rooney
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: does once this team lands in Washington, D.C., and then
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: on to on to Baltimore. That about does us for
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: Rugby Direct out of South Africa. Liam, safe travels around
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: South Africa. Look forward to seeing when you get back home.
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's been a pleasure. Thanks for listening. It's been
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: a great tour. South Africa's a brilliant country and it's
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: been a captivating test series and just speaking to South
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: Africans and South African media, even yesterday I was talking
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: to Mark Kihei and he was saying New Zealand and
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: South Africa will probably never host another World Cup and
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: For South Africans, this is the closest that it's going
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: to get. And I've loved being in a country where
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: the series, the rugby, has been so engrossing for everyone.
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: You know, it's been front and centre. Anywhere you go,
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: people are talking to you about it. We had hotel
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: staff dropping springbok jerseys off at our doors. There's been
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: banter everywhere. So you can go to... You can often
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: go to France even during a World Cup or Washington
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: and not even know that the rugby's on. But South
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: Africans love their rugby. They're extremely passionate about it. And
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: it has been very front of mind for everyone. So
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: I've loved being here and loved every moment of touring.
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: And you're a good man. So I always enjoy your company.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. Yep, we'll roll on to Washington, D.C. and Baltimore.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: We'll have a podcast for you later in the week.
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: Not sure what shape it'll take as yet. Might just
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: be me. talking at you for 15 or so minutes,
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: so that'd be fun. But we will have something later
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: on in the week. Thanks to Mark Kelly for producing
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: Rugby Direct. As always, we're powered by Access Solutions, elevating
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: you and your business to a higher level.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: For more from Newstalk ZB, listen live, on air, or online.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: And keep our shows with you wherever you go, with
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: our podcasts on iHeartRadio.